Staying Ahead of the Curve with Sondra Wenger

Welcome. This is the Insider's Edge to Real Estate Investing with James Nelson, the principal and head of Avis & Young's Tri State investment Sales Group. In this program you'll learn game changing strategies to outperform the market. James will teach you how to source, execute and capitalize on the best real estate opportunities in New York and around the world. Now here's your host.

Welcome to episode number 143 of the Insider's Edge to Real Estate Investing. Yes, we are back after a month or two hiatus where we were working so hard to get the Insider's Edge to Real Estate Investing book launched. We are back and thank you all for making such that an incredible success. Not only did we hit number one on two categories in Amazon, but also Drumroll. Number six on the Wall Street Journal Bestseller list for business books and wow. I have so many thank yous. My publisher McGraw Hill, my agent Ka writing Smith publicity book highlight, and of course my writing partner Rachel Hartman. And all of you. I'm so grateful for those of you who've ordered the book, for those of you who have given ratings and shared the word on the book. It's been such an amazing experience and I'm so grateful that it's had a positive reception. But we're back in the saddle here and today we're getting back to our weekly interviews as incredible investors, entrepreneurs, and today is no exception, we have with us Sandra Wenger, who is the head of America's Commercial Operator division for CBR Investment Management, one of the largest global asset managers in the world. Sandra began her career in the commercial real estate industry in 1995, and as Source negotiated and closed over $10 billion of transactions in more than 35 cities. Prior to joining CBRE Investment Management in 2021, she served as a senior executive for institutions including CIM Group, General Electric and Equity Office Properties. I had the pleasure of meeting with Sandra at BizNow's ESCAPE conference where she led our tribe. We had some really great conversations about the challenges we face in the market, but also the and she is certainly an incredible person to help lead her firm through these unchartered waters. Saunder began by telling her story as she started as an investor, but quickly learned that she did not fit the profile. She transitioned to work on the ownership side for some of the most legendary investors out there, including Sam Zell. She talked about working for larger firms while staying entrepreneurial and ahead of the curve. I love what Sandra had to say about leadership. She has an open and communicative style which has served her well. She loves giving everyone a seat at the table, which she learned from Zell. She also talks about the importance of saying yes, especially when learning to take on hard assignments that no one else wants. That's where you gain real experience and respect. This also means staying open to new opportunities. I know you will get a lot out of this episode. As always, you can find the show notes@jamesnelson.com along with the video series White Papers. And of course you can order the book from there as well if you're not going straight to Amazon. So last but not least, please connect with me at James Nelson NYC if you have not already on Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter, plenty more exciting announcements to come. We're going to have a brief word from our sponsor and we'll get right back to that interview with Sandra Wenger.

A Different Approach to Putting our Clients First Avis and Young's Tri State Investment Sales Group sells multifamily office, retail, development and specialty sales throughout the New York metro area. As experienced thought leaders in our industry, our 35 member group is available to help you make informed investment decisions by advising you on your current holdings or identifying new opportunities in the marketplace. Our one unified team is built on an industry unique platform which promotes unparalleled collaboration and teamwork. We share core values of hard work, integrity and expertise. We we put our clients first providing tailor made strategies to achieve superior results. Please Visit us at aytristateinvestmentsales.com and follow us on Twitter, LinkedIn and Instagram amesnelsonnyc to learn more.

And now it's time for Investor Spotlight and I am thrilled today to have with us Sandra Wenger. Sandra is Senior Managing Director and Head of Commercial Real Estate for the Americas for CBRE Investment Management. Sandra, great to see you. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Thank you for having me. Great to see you as well.

Yes. So Sandra and I had the pleasure of meeting each other down in Miami at BizNow's SCAPE conference, which I highly recommend. We were part of the same tribe and Sandra was our tribe leader. So had some really great conversations there that went far beyond real estate and and even got a chance to do some yoga in the morning which was was great too. I know that that's part of your practice so well, wonderful yoga.

I have a pulled hamstring right now because of yoga. Yoga's in my dog house right now.

Well hopefully you'll get back out there soon. So Sandra, tell us a little bit about your story and how you got into real estate?

Yeah, absolutely. So I will say all of my life I thought I would be an accountant. I majored in business with an emphasis in accounting as president of the accounting club. I got a scholarship to take a CPA prep course. I went to work for price Waterhouse, was PricewaterhouseCoopers, where I thought I would live happily ever after. But then I realized that it didn't quite fit my personality. I remember counting microchips on a New Year's Eve one year and thinking that life had to be more than this. It would be terrible because you'd be counting them and you'd lose focus and have to start over again. So I would say I realized that I needed to go a new path. At the time I had some dot com clients, I had some oil and gas clients and I had a real estate client. I really liked the real estate client the most. So went in the direction of real estate. It was interesting because right after I decided to take the career path on real estate, there was the big dot com explosion where everybody that I knew was in technology. And I was wishing or thinking that I made the wrong choice. And then we had the biggest dot com bust which realized real estate, which was a much more stable, better choice at the time.

I sounds like I got into the business about the same time because I remember that kind of the late 90s and with the dot com bust. But then real estate had an incredible run from there on. So now I've got to ask because you said you really knew growing up that you wanted to be an accountant. So was it. What was it about accounting? Was it the numbers? I mean, I assume you're really good at math and I'm sure that that's helped you throughout your career. But you know, how did you know that at an early age?

Yeah, you know, I had a dad that was a cfo. I love numbers. I did. I excelled in math. I took calculus. I was calculus tutor. I liked. I thought that what was interesting about accounting is that it exposes you to so many different career path you are getting. You know, you, you go in there as a young adult and you don't. They, they throw different clients at you and you don't have, you don't have a sense, you know anything about these companies because you're brand new into, into the business. So it gives you a really good exposure as to what types of careers are out there and what types of companies are out there. So from that standpoint, you know, what it exposes me to is I realized that I did not want to be an accountant. I realized that there out there that my personality was more geared towards. So started with the job. First job outside of Pricewaterhouse was with Lincoln Property Co. Based in Foster City where I was doing asset management for basically doing asset management for residential. So loved was great. But at the time I was living in San Francisco commuting out to Foster City and and realized I wanted to make a change and since I was living in San Francisco be in San Francisco. So as a result I went back to the city to get a job got a job as a controller going back to accounting with the company Trinet Realty Trust was there realized that I still did not like accounting. I had some friends that were on the acquisition side of buying and buying and selling real estate and thought that that was a lot more interesting. So took a job with amb, which is now prologis focusing on acquisitions for industrial buildings. So was there at the height of about 2000, 2001 they had just got that beautiful office space down at Pier 1 in San Francisco. I don't know if you've been there, but it was. That was really, I would say the first amazing creative office that job that I'd seen. But they were. Yeah, was there doing acquisitions for them.

Wow. I mean and I'm looking at your resume and some of the companies that you've had the privilege of working with. I mean it's. I mean these are. I mean some of the top names in the industry and best in class. Lincoln Property, prologic. So at what point did you move over to equity office? Was that. Was that the next opportunity?

Yeah, yeah. So I had one stint in between. So I was doing. It was interesting. I was at. At prologis doing industrial buildings and I had an opportunity with a company called McFarlane Properties. With Victor McFarlane he was a private equity firm at the time he was working out of trailers over by Candlestick Park. I liked what I found interesting with him was they were doing urban mixed use projects. So really downtown interesting urban mixed use. And I thought it would be a good. I wanted to get out of industrial. Industrial became very much cookie cutter doing the same types of deals over and over again. So I was drawn to McFarland Partners because they were doing these complicated mixed use of properties. Worked on several big deals like Columbus Circle in New York which was interesting. Some deals down in Battery Park. We did a lot of the urban mixed use with retail residential complicating deals and was at McFarland Partners for a Couple of years and got a call from a headhunter and that I wasn't expecting to take. And she wanted me to interview for Equity Office, based out of Chicago at the time. I thought, I'll just talk to them to brush up on interview skills. I have no interest whatsoever. But went for the interview, met with my then boss at the time, gentleman Michael Lynch. Really liked the platform, liked what they were doing. I somehow got talked into it and then next thing I know we were moving to Chicago and was at Equity Office.

Wow. Did you have a chance to meet with Sam Zell before you took the job or. I. You ran into pretty quickly as far as, you know, what I've heard and from reading his book, I mean, you know, that was a very tight knit group for sure.

Yeah, yeah. You know, it was funny. So. Yeah, so we did not. The one time I did have to go in and talk to Sam Zell, we were looking at buying a project that was outside of Menlo park, which, you know, was super nervous to go talk to him. We had all of the details memorized. We, you know, knew like everything inside out cold. And it's interesting, you go and sit down in his office and he has all these little knickknacks all around his office. It's all of these. He's a. I would call it a memor and memorabilia collector. So just from different points in his life. So it's very distracting because you're sitting there trying to have a focused conversation and he's got all these crazy things going on around him. But, you know, his one question was, what does your gut say about this project? Do you think you should, like, what does your gut? Tell me what your gut says. Which was a very interesting approach because I was so used to everybody asking all the quantitative information about the investment. So that was my experience, my face to face with Sam Zell. But he was quite a force. I remember, you know, he drive a motorcycle to work. He had an elevator for his motorcycle. Yes. He was quite a character.

Got response because. Yes. From what I've read in. Was it. Am I being too subtle? You know, he did not shy away from, you know, speaking his mind and challenging. So how did your gut response go over? What did he think?

Overall, it went well. He said, all right, we can go ahead and do the deal. I think we put the bid in. Unfortunately, we were not the top bidder.

But that sounds like a win though.

Yes.

Wow.

Yes. And they used to have very fun holiday parties. He used to throw the most, like eccentric holiday Parties, So he was very much known for that, but very interesting person to work for.

So. And then from there was it General Electric and. Yeah. Ge. Were you in their, Their capital Group or what was the. The next stop?

Yeah. So then from there, Equity Office got purchased by Blackstone. Blackstone. It was interesting going through that. You know, at the time it was fun to watch the stock price bump up. It was, you know, started at 30, I'm trying to remember, low 30s. And we got it up to high 30s, but it was tornado and Blackstone were chasing after it. And so we went through Equity Office, got bought out by Blackstone, ended up staying on under Equity Office, slash Blackstone for about a year, and then followed my boss from Equity Office over to General Electric. Over at General Electric, was asked to start a new firm, or ge, at the time that I joined, used to be the main capital source for real estate. They wanted to start a new arm where they were actually the sponsor in deals. So we looked to talk to Joint Venture Partners where we were going to be the sponsor and raise capital. And at the time we were going through trying to start this program. GE took a look and said, you know, we're. We're not a real estate company. We need to, we need to reassess. And they looked at downsizing and basically downsizing their real estate, the real estate piece. So I was laid off from GE and then went over to a friend of mine. Why am I blinking? Oh, a friend of mine from Equity Office. He, he was working at CIM Group and. Which was based down in Los Angeles. We were living at the time in San Francisco, based down in la, and they were looking for somebody to do deals. So with that went down, started a career at CIM for 11 years.

What year was that that you joined CIM? And at the time, what was this? Still pretty early on in their, in their company's history being today, I mean, and I don't know what, what type of assets they have under management, but they, they are, you know, certainly a force nationwide. I. What I've heard is when they started off, it was really more kind of a boutique shop. So did we.

Yeah, it was. Yeah. When I had started with them, there was about. They had about a billion and a half of assets under management. It was right around the great financial crisis. They were one of the first groups. What was impressive with them is they were one of the first groups to jump back into New York. They did their 432Park project, which really, I would say, put them on the map. And then that followed other deals. They were one of the first groups to go in and they were able to find, you know, do a ground up development. That tower became like the first of the billionaire towers here in New York. And then they started doing, you know, additional deals. And we grew from, during the 11 years I was there, we went from a billion and a half up to we were over 30 billion of assets under management.

What was your primary responsibility there? What was your main focus?

Yeah, so started off mostly focused on acquisitions. There they had an approach of taking the assets kind of cradle to grave. So you purchase the asset, you do the asset management and when it's time to sell the asset, you sell the asset. I was acquisition person and then as I kind of got promoted up started doing sourcing for the company nationally. So it was mostly sourcing real estate and then being a liaison for the brokers and maintaining our broker relationships.

And when you say sourcing because I mean, I know CIM certainly buys for their own account but a lot of what they were doing was coming in as JV Equities. So you know, 432 park of course with I think Maclo at the time. So were you also responsible for these sponsor relationships and helping, you know, cultivate these joint ventures?

Yeah, so we were looking for deals. You know, we did a lot of off market stuff. So it was looking through deals, through relationships, you know, through sponsors who may have gotten trouble during the great financial crisis. We were basically talking to, talking to brokers, talk, talking to title people, talking to lawyers, like anybody who had clients that were, you know, had an issue with real estate that we could go in and try and help them solve. Yeah. But was very active. You know, we looked across the country doing, looking nationally for stuff and was really able to grow on the platform. And we did every level of the capital stack, every product type, so and then every. All across the risk spectrum.

Wonderful. So before, and I want to talk about what you're doing today, but you know, working at all these incredible companies. Okay. And they're all, you know, substantial in their own right, but also I have to imagine the structures were very different and I'm sure the leadership and the culture. So can you kind of talk about what makes for a great culture for an investment platform? Maybe talk a little bit about the leadership, you know, any observations about kind of the differences. Maybe you don't have to get specific with each company but you know, in your career you've been able to see kind of what works and maybe what doesn't. Work. Can you maybe talk a little bit about that?

Yeah. So I think if I look at, I think in real estate, you have to be ahead of it. If I look at my career and looking back at GE, for example, they were very focused on, okay, when does research tell us to do something? When does the latest public report say, okay, jump, now's the time to go? By the time that report comes out, you're too late. You're too late in the cycle. You know, one of the things with some of the more entrepreneurial firms like McFarlane Partners and CIM is they were, they were creating the trends, they were ahead of it. They weren't waiting for everybody to tell them to go. So I think, you know, that certainly had its, its, its, its benefits. I think, you know, they, they were able to get ahead of things probably faster than some of the competition. Yeah. In terms of leadership style, you know, I would say probably Equity Office had one of my favorites. They, it was just very open, very communicative. You're very much able to influence. And that was, you know, probably the best, the best one.

Did you ever think through, through your career at any point to go off, do something on your own or did you, did you like working with, you know, with a bigger platform that you could leverage?

Yeah, so my comfort zone is definitely bigger platform. I did. I'm on the board of two real estate companies right now that I would say are more entrepreneurial. One is with the woman CA south, based out of Nashville. She is one of the only woman developer real estate firms that are out there. So that's the first one. The second one is American Ventures. It is a value add apartment, a private equity firm that's based out of Austin. At one point I was looking after, after cim, I was looking at, okay, well, maybe I'll just go in and kind of do board work or work with these smaller companies and help them grow. I realized that that's not my comfort zone. It's a very challenging, very challenging to, you know, have to make sure that you have equity lined up before you can continue. And really realized that my comfort zone is with these larger companies, you know, and that's when I went in and took position with CBRE Investment Management. You know, my choices were kind of some of these smaller, more entrepreneurial firms versus a larger firm. And when I really took a step back and said, okay, where's my comfort zone? What do I like to do? I like to work on kind of the big, hairy, difficult projects. I like a national presence. I Like having a platform, having, having ability to raise equity, having the ability to raise equity. Those were all things that were attractive, attractive to me in going with the larger firms.

That makes a ton of sense and it's great. I did see your involvement with CA South. It's really exciting to hear there. And then the workforce housing with American Ventures, so well, fantastic. So let's now talk about your latest opportunity here and with CBRE Global Investors. And you now oversee the firm's office and retail portfolio in the US And I guess earlier this year the office was valued at 8 and a half billion assets under management. A billion and a half of direct retail assets under management. So maybe talk about kind of the scope of that portfolio, you know, when you're dealing with big numbers like that, I mean are we talking about a dozen investments? Are there dozens? And then, you know, how do you go about overseeing that portfolio while also I would imagine continuing to grow it, make strategic moves in this market?

Yeah, absolutely. And this, so what does that portfolio consist of? We looked at about a year and a half ago at Commodity Office, you know, with COVID being in place, recognized that in 50 million workers, you know, may or may not be coming back to work. Recognized that we had to get, you know, focus on other areas besides Commodity Office. So we really started growing the portfolio. And you know what clients are interested in, they're very interested in storage, they're interested in Medical office, they're interested in what we're calling Responsive Office. And Responsive Office is really, they're responding to the needs of the user. It's, it's brand new office build, it's got all the bells and whistles. It's got, you know, everything, everything that the modern office needs today. Clients also like adaptive reuse projects that are done well and behave like Responsive Office in that they're generating the higher, higher rents and then Medical Office. So we switched, kind of switched our strategy of doing the downtown, you know, commodity office building and putting lipstick on it and really switched it to gear it towards what's the future of real estate. And you know, where, where are people going to start to gravity gravitate towards? And it's really kind of in these alt sectors. So we've been very active in that. So the portfolio, you know, I would say is a combination of types of assets and continuing to, looking to grow it. I mean even in these market conditions today, still have capital and equity available where we're looking to grow.

How would you say you spend the majority of your time, is it on the Asset management side overseeing that is it acquisitions. And again you're responsible for direct assets under management. So in these situations, I mean, do you have other joint venture partners? You know, maybe just get a sense of how you, how you spend your day.

Yeah, so I think the majority of the day is really on the strategic side and looking and saying how can, how can I keep staff engaged, how can I keep clients engaged, how can, how can we make the commercial sector relevant? So it's, it's a lot of that kind of focus and it's CBRE is great because it is such a big platform. So we've got access to, okay, what are the latest trends in real estate? How are people responding to, you know, whatever's going on in the market and tapping into the, those resources to figure out the latest strategy. So it's very strategic and forward looking and thinking, okay, what's going to work for tomorrow? So a lot of it is strategy and a lot of it is how can we get the industry excited about commercial real estate and what types of assets does that have to be? And then making sure that my team understands what those types of assets are split out between transactions and asset management. The transaction side is really getting them excited about what it is that we're looking for and making sure that they understand it and that they believe in it and that they can communicate it to the market. Because you know, the biggest, the easiest way to buy is to have the market know what you want and have people bring that to you. So the more that my people kind of understand the strategy and the story and can articulate it, the easier it is for deal flow to come, whether it be through marketed transactions, off marketed transactions. So it's really making sure that we have a clear strategy, a strategy that's signed off on so that people aren't wasting time with something that leadership does is not interested in, but making sure that they've got a strategy that that's signed off on so that they can go out and find those deals and really making sure that, that from an acquisition standpoint they can be efficient and effective. On the asset management side it is, okay, what, what do we have and how do we keep what we have relevant? So it's, it's, you know, we've got to put in the latest and greatest. It's, you know, perhaps it's a refi, perhaps it's time to sell, you know, it's a cross of stuff to make sure that we're constantly keeping things relevant.

So I would also imagine, I mean you're responsible for the Americas. And I would imagine your team is not just based here in New York. I'm sure you have a team across the country, so I would imagine part of this is also leading your team, making sure, and that's so important that everyone is on the same page. And I know here I've got a group in my office, we have three dozen people. We meet every morning in person. We also have the benefit of being on an open floor. People hear what others have to say. But for you, I'm sure you have team members across the country. And so I guess the question is, how do you keep everybody on the same page? You know, are you traveling? Are you visiting the various offices? So curious about that, that aspect as well.

So we do a weekly Zoom meeting, which Zoom, like the introduction of Zoom, is huge. And I definitely make people be on it face to face so that, you know, people don't have their cameras off and that we are very focused, focused on what's going on. And then try and get out and meet with them, you know, once a month to meet live, either I go to them or they'll come out here. But it's really trying to make sure that there's a connectivity and connectivity between the offices too. So, you know, we will send people from, you know, New York to the Dallas office or people from LA to come out to New York. But making sure that everybody has that personal connectivity with each other, certainly it forms a better team. And just then they're all wanting, then they can call and make sure that we're doing same practices across different regions and all of that. But the more that we can get together live, it's certainly more beneficial for the team members.

Right. So. And I wonder, your leadership style, if you said from all your past experiences, you know, what you appreciated most about Equity Office and Zell was that it was open, communicative, and that, you know, what I heard was everybody has a seat at the table, everybody has a voice. Now, at the same time, you have institutional partners, there is kind of a company mandate, if you will. So, yes, you want people to bring ideas to the table, but how do you find that balance? Where you want people to bring creativity to the table, new ideas, but still are in line with your mandates.

Yeah. So I think what's really important is defining that strategy and making sure that people that are going to execute the strategy have a say in the strategy. So, you know what, what we did a year and a half ago is we defined five different strategies of what we're going to chase after. And we had different team members work on kind of each of those strategies. And when they worked on it, researching it, it was figuring out, okay, how we're going to get it done and then, and then presenting it to the company. So, you know, we're doing that again. What I encourage the team to do is anytime you see a new opportunity in the market, like let's, let's research it and see if it makes sense to be a strategy. So, you know, we pivot with the market. So we recently saw a pivot where there's an opportunity clearly for preferred equity structure or for a structure that can take you up to a 70% loan rate. So we're now working on, I've got, you know, a team, the team again that's going to be executing it and managing it. They're involved with coming up with the strategy, they're involved with pitching the strategy. So I, I think you need to, a way to get buy in of your strategy is to have the team help develop the strategy. And then once it's developed, then people have a clear mandate as to what they will go and what has been signed off on. And that's how we were able to be so successful. Over the last two years we've done about 8 billion of transactions. So you need to have a clear direction in order to do that so that people aren't wasting their time on deals that are never going to happen. So I would say that we're very focused in what it is that we're chasing.

Yeah, I love how you had kind of that buy in from the start and I was listening and now of course I'm going to remember who, forget who was talking about goal setting, but the idea of, you know, if you are a team leader and trying to establish goals for the group, you know, everybody needs to help create those goals and be a part of it. Just saying here, this is what we're doing. You know, go execute. Right. So I think that's fantastic that you had the five different strategies and you had different team members work on each to really take ownership. So that's fantastic.

And also letting them come up with the strategies. Because some of you know, if you sit down with your team, they have good ideas. They're the boots on the ground looking at stuff. So some of our core strategies have come from team members ideas of what they're seeing in the market. So it's also I think important to show, look, you have a good idea, we'll take it to the next Level, we'll develop a strategy around it, we'll implement it and then go execute on your strategy that you've created. So we've had examples of that. So the team looks at that and says, oh, you know, we really can take an action item. You know, it's not just fluff. A lot of times, you know, the worry with big companies is that they can't be entrepreneurial and they can't pivot when a new idea comes because it's too difficult to shift things. Certainly has not been the case here. We are very focused and have the research and the capability to kind of react to what the market tells us.

Wonderful. No? I love that. So the, the title of this show and my upcoming book is the Insider's Edge to Real Estate Investing. So be curious what kind of what that means to you and if you had to say what, what your inside edge is to, to real estate investing, whether for your, you know, for yourself or, or your, your company, what, what would you say?

Yeah, so I think two things. It's, it's your relationships. This is very much a relationship business and you don't know where your relationships are going to take you. You know, if you just say yes to something, it can lead to, you know, it can lead to a board position, it can lead to a really interesting like off market opportunity. But you know, without hat, you know, that's just get out there and go to different events and it's, it's all about the people that you know and the people that you interact with and then just be open for new ideas. You know, you don't know, you don't know where a conversation is going to lead. So you know, be, make people want to talk to you and, and you know, through the relationships develop, that's, that's, that's where you're really going to get your insider's edge. You're going to hear things that others don't know about. You're going to get opportunities, you know, that, that aren't there for everybody. But you've got to make the effort. It's, it's a lot, there's a lot of times you just want to go home and go to bed and not go out to that real estate event or you know, not go to whatever, whatever's going on. But you can, that's, that's where the value is. The value is in what people have going on and listening and connecting the dots. So when you hear something, you know, the more information you have and the more people, you know, the More you can connect dots and then connecting those dots, that's, that's where you're going to find really, really the edge and what it is that you're doing.

Wow, Sandra, I know you haven't read my book yet. I, I'm pretty sure I did not send you a draft. I'll tell you what you just said, and I'm gonna play that back because you just distilled the whole thesis of the book, so.

Oh, really?

That was really amazing how succinctly you put that as well. But yes, you know, this is a business about the people and the relationships and cultivating those relationships. But I love how you talked about being open and saying yes to opportunities because that brings in, you know, more possibilities. So that, that was just, you know, and again, once you cultivate those relationships, people more willing with free, with information. They want to be helpful. Connecting the dots. Wow. You just, you said so many good things there. So I'm going to make sure and go back and give that a listen again, as I'm sure our, our audience will. So with that, maybe talk about advice that you would give to someone looking to get into the business today. So, you know, maybe someone college now and maybe they want to get into the investment side. And is it, you know, you spent most of your career at, you know, bigger shops and you've talked about the benefit, but for, you know, someone just starting out, you know, what, what advice would, would you give to them?

Yeah. So it is a great industry. It touches on a lot of stuff that you've studied throughout school. So you get, you know, economics, you get social, you get intellectual, you get overall market views. My adv. Somebody coming in though, is to go. The good thing with going to a bigger shop is you're going to get a lot of exposure. And what that exposure, you can start narrowing it down to figure out, you know, what it is that you're most drawn to. Like what's, you know, what market are you excited about, what product type are you excited about, what location? You know, it's, it's, you know, what level of the capital stock you like. Maybe, you know, you really like debt versus equity. You just have, you have a lot of choices in this industry that, you know, just getting your foot in the door, you can figure out, you know, maybe you want to be an asset manager, maybe you want to be a property manager, maybe you want to be a deal person, maybe you want to raise equity. You know, there's a, there's a lot that you can do. There's not enough. So there's not enough real estate classes like in school for. I don't think our business does a good enough job of really pushing real estate within like the college sector and going and trying to recruit people that don't have a real estate program. But you don't need like that real estate program to get into real estate. I had a business and accounting background and I ended up here. So it's, you know, don't feel like you have to have had to have gone to a company that had a real estate degree. You can get there through, you know, it's got all the principles that you've learned in some of those other classes. But it's a great profession to get involved with. And like I said, you can choose many different levels. Once you're in the door, you can choose and be and do whatever you want to do with it.

And how would you suggest kind of our listeners doing diligence on a company to find out, you know, what, what would that experience be like to work at these various firms?

Yeah, I think, you know, going on LinkedIn, seeing if, you know, if you've got any connections to anybody. I get several calls from people who are asking me about different companies. You know, that's again, in relationship business. People are willing to take those calls and respond to that, talk to people who know the company. There's stuff online, you know, do research online, see what kinds of negative, you know, are people talking badly? Are people talking good? What's also really important is, you know, is this company growing? Are they able to raise funds? Are they able to do deals? You know, how active have they been? That's really important. A lot of people go, you know, and once they get there, they realize that it's a sleepy company or that the company's not doing what they thought that they could do. There's so much access to information now and to really do your research, do it online, talk to people, any, any connectivity points that you can find on it. On it. Do it. You know, the other, the other thing is a job is not forever, as you know, is clear with my, my history. So, you know, if you don't like something, it's easy to transfer either within the company or to a new company. So take a, you know, you don't feel like you're committing forever. You can, you can switch around fairly easily in this industry.

And what about for the women who are looking to get into the business? And it does seem like over the last few years that there's definitely been A pretty positive shift in the makeup of a lot of these companies, especially at the board level. But what advice would you give to a woman starting out? Are there organizations that you're involved with or things that you found helpful earlier in your career to kind of, you know, find great mentors and grow?

Yeah, I would definitely say that it has gotten a lot better. There is, you know, there are many times when I walk into a room and I'm the only woman. I mean, even still, it gives you a complex. It's hard because you feel that you have to over prepare for everything because you are the only woman. You feel that you have to over prepare, over prepare because you are representing women, you're representing women in total. And if you mess up, a woman's not going to be invited back. So I've gone through most of my career feeling like I have to be over prepared on stuff. But yeah, I would say, you know, stick with it, don't be intimidated. You know, the good thing is if you are the only woman in the room, you're remembered more because you are the only woman. So you know, use it to your advantage. You know, go up and, and talk to people. It's always intimidating, but you know, go up to a group and talk to people and you, you, you will be remembered more. I would also say, you know, don't be shy. You don't get what you don't ask for. You know, women in general don't ask as much as, as men and you know, that's, you deserve it. Ask. The worst thing that you can get is a no. And definitely ask, Ask for what you want, whether you know, you want to be on a deal, whether you want higher pay, whether you know, whatever, whatever the case may be. As a leader, I get asked stuff all the time and I'll say no. And you know, life, life goes on. So, but you know, the majority is, I have more men asking me stuff than women. So I just encourage, encourage you to ask because the worst thing that can happen is you're told no, but so is your male counterpart. So, but at least they're asking. So you got to try. But yeah, you know, and stick with it. There's not a lot of women on the transaction side. There tends to be more like coming in at the analyst and associate levels. It kind of tapers off the older that they get. And you know, stay, stay with it. It's, it's a fun career. It's great. There's a lot of different avenues you can take, but stay, stay with it.

That's wonderful. Sandra. This has been fantastic. You have such an incredible story and I was so happy to have had the chance to get to meet you and certainly look forward to being in touch. So thank you again for joining us today and sharing your story.

Absolutely. Thank you for the opportunity. Great to see you and thank you.

Everyone again for joining. As always, really appreciate your support and sharing this episode with your friends and attention. If you have not done so already, please make sure and go to james nelson.com where you can find the show notes to this episode and where you can also pre order my upcoming book. I wrote this book for you to give you the Inside Edge to Real Estate Investing. Until next week, this is your host, James Nelson.

Thank you for listening to the Insider's Edge to Real Estate Investing. We appreciate your subscribing and sharing with your friends. If you haven't already, please connect the with James amesnelsonnyc on LinkedIn, Instagram and Twitter. Please also visit jamesnelson.com where you can find the show notes and other episodes along with an exclusive video series and other helpful resources so you can gain the Insider's Edge to Real Estate investing. Until next week.