The Insider's Edge to Real Estate Investing with Whitney Arcaro

And I'm starting this clock with Annalise. Okay, welcome everyone, to the Insider's Edge to real estate investing, especially those of you who are joining us now. Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter. That's been a really wonderful thing that we are now not just offering this through your favorite podcast networks, but also live streaming. So it's just such an incredible thing to reach a wider audience. So I'm really excited to have with us today Whitney Arcaro, who is the Chief Revenue Officer of rxr. Welcome. Thank you so much. You're also our landlord, so want to thank you for this beautiful building and everything that you all do.

Thank you. Well, actually, I love 535th. It's one of my favorite buildings in the portfolio because it feels like a soho loft, yet it's smack dab in the middle of midtowns. And I love your spaces. They look great.

Thank you so much. And it was so awesome running into you at icsc. And sometimes people think, okay, what's really going on in Vegas? Are people just out there partying? And sure, there's a little bit of that, but there's also a lot of work being done. And we caught up at the cocktail party afterwards and was like, hey, we, you know, we hadn't spoken for a little while. Let's do this. Let's. Let's do a podcast together. So that was. Was great.

Yeah. And actually, and I was there with Sarah Cafaro on your investment sales team, who we have some follow up with her on a couple of things that we've been talking through from a retail perspective. So I, I appreciate that event just for that. It's like it's a reunion and there's a lot of good stuff that comes out of it in a much less daunting setting. Right. It's more socially driven. And you end up realizing that's the one wonderful thing about our business. It's. It's great to do business with people you actually like and have known for a long time. So it's good.

It's a great point. And it's a great reminder for all of you listening, watching that. Yes, we, we can. We can bring this to you virtually through your. Your podcast network. But this is also an in person business and there's something about when people come together. And that's why we're recording this live in a studio, not just over zoom. Right. So congratulations on the new role as Chief Revenue Officer. So you started at RXR in 2017 and you were head of marketing and retail leasing. Really big Job. For those of you who don't know, rxr, one of the top landlords, not just here in New York, but across the country, 25 million square feet. And that combines office residential, which they made a big push into that. So maybe talk a little bit about this recent promotion, this recent role and what that portfolio looks like.

Yeah, so it's, it's revenue that's dedicated on the, the multifamily portfolio and other residential opportunities we have. So you know, we have some for sale product or some single family product in other markets, but predominantly it's multifamily and rental product. But we, you know, I think a good way to look at it as Scott Rechler, our CEO has had so much foresight for really understanding the shift in population, the shift in work day, day into night and sort of this 24 hour cycle of live work play and where customer behaviors are really going. And then you add that to other sensitive issues that this region's been confronting. Right? It's infrastructure, it's affordability. And that doesn't just mean affordability in how our industry perceives affordable housing. It's really about overall price sensitivity. That means you have gainfully employed people who just fundamentally cannot afford the class A product in prime Manhattan, Brooklyn and other parts of the boroughs where the suburban core has attracted people to living at transportation. So we can call that transit oriented residential product, but they're living at transportation and they have the ease of access, of commuting into their workplace. And at the same time there's no compromise in that spirit of community and all of the fantastic amenities and things that happen in these great kind of superstructure products that we've been seeing in the market for several years. So he planted that seed from an investment perspective, probably 12, 13, 14. And then as you prepare to do a lot of ground up development, everything came to life basically in timing. With the year that I started, so 2017 into 19, I like to say that we basically gave birth to like octuplets. I mean it was like eight products just came to market really quickly. But in the spirit of monster growth for us, both in development as well as accretive growth, where we stand now in the Multifamily portfolio is 12,000 units. That's representative of what's in market, what is stuff that we've actively developed, things that we are actively invested in and asset managing, but not per se, the direct owner manager and then things that we are directly developing that are in pipeline. That's 15 independent markets that are predominantly driven around the New York Tri State. We also have a JV partner invested interest with the AV product that's run by the Corman family. Their initial kind of genesis was the Philadelphia Tri State into parts of northern New Jersey. And now with that group and that brand, we are in expansion markets which include Tampa, Arizona, a few different submarkets within Arizona, Denver, Dallas, and more to come. So it's been really exciting. And now all of that is also culminating from a proprietary RXR development capability. We are tied to a $3 billion master plan in North Carolina. So my role grew into looking at this from a revenue perspective dedicated to multifamily because of really the scale of the portfolio and objectives that actually tie to my roots, which is the brand. And what's really great is when it's a consumer product, there is really real correlation between the power of the brand and what that means to a pricing premium, velocity driver and the other things that accelerate overall revenue.

Wow, that's an incredible overview, an incredible portfolio. And by the way, if you all have not heard my interview with Scott Rackler, it's. It's a must. So do that right after you listen to this. And I've also had. I spoke to Seth Pinsky back when he was at rxr, and one of the things I remember that's so amazing about the way RXR runs is that, you know, it's really this collaborative process where everybody comes together. I think every year, if I'm not mistaken, there's kind of a, I don't want to call it a white paper, but kind of like a mission statement of what are we doing? Where are the opportunities? And you know, my coach would, would tell me that that's working on the business as opposed to in the business. Right. So you're really taking a step back and saying, okay, well, if you look at the history of rxr, and this even goes before when you, you know, Scott and his family were big industrial owners, sold at a great time, bought back into New York office, and now saw this opportunity for multifamily, not just in the tri state area, but across the country. And, you know, clearly did a lot of research. I mean, to go into 15 markets, I mean, let's talk about just doing one market to really do the work, to figure out not only here's the thesis, but how to execute on that is super impressive.

Yeah.

So like, how do you, how do you do that? I mean, it's. Where do you start? Right?

I mean, some of it is just the power of Scott and Our fantastic owning partners. That's Mike Maturo, it's Jason Barnett, it's Todd Rechler as well. I mean, they're just amazing people and they're machines. Like, if, you know, this is a business that I'm going to take a little bit of because it's a podcast, we can have a little fun here. But I recall there was a former colleague of mine who made a statement that's like getting this company, not rxr, a different company. I won't say the name, but getting this company to make a decision is like having the tit make a. Make a K turn in Brooklyn and everybody kind of got it because it was just like some, some companies just move at this. It's powerful, it's a bold sort of movement. But it's at this pace that you're just, it's glacial. Right? RXR runs at a very fast pace. And I think one of the exciting things about working there, and I appreciate that you brought up the white paper. It is this very, it's all, you know, stems in the head of Scott, but it is this very hands on, integrated process of exactly what you just said. What is the blueprint this year for the business? Then we'll do our job. And then through that white paper, it's also not about the given year. Scott and the owning team really encourage everyone to think through how that ties back to seeds that are already planted and how it puts forward seeds that we want to grow. So each year, while there's a specific set of goals and economic understanding tied to the given pattern that we're in, it's always geared towards a bigger goal and it's a very exciting thing to be part of. Did I answer the question?

I think you did. And it really, what is amazing and it was at the core of my point was how quickly, you know, it's not just coming up with these ideas, but executing, figuring out. And you're also doing a lot of different things at once. You know, you all just announced a billion dollar venture with Aries to go after office opportunities up and down the capital stack. You have your Oz. I mean, it's really interesting to see that you all are playing up and down the capital stack and different asset classes around the world. But I want to get back to. Because brand is so important, right? It's your story and kind of what you do and the ethos and another great guest and friend of mine who wrote the forward to my book, Ryan Sirhan, wrote a book called Brand it like Sirhan, but Just for our audience and maybe it's even someone who's listening right now and they just started a business, they want to go and they want to start buying apartment buildings and maybe they're starting small, like 10 units. Like how should that person be thinking about brand as they grow a business?

Well, I think that's a really good question, James.

That's a, I didn't prep her, by the way. This, this is part of the fun of the show is we just like, I get to ask what I want to ask and that's a great question there.

I think we have to. This, this isn't. We're a unique industry and I think New York is definitely the flagship market of the world for, for real estate or we'll call it institutional real estate. But when you think of how the genesis of real estate, a lot of it were family driven businesses, some still are the namesakes to these behemoth companies and you know, some it sort of is what it is and they're these great family offices and they still have really great holdings. But I think we're in a business that there's still the notion of a person being synonymous with the institutional company and that's a pretty unique thing. So I'd say for young, for entrepreneurs, the personal brand is probably tantamount or many could say paramount to whatever company goal that they might have for themselves as they begin to amass more and more units and things of that nature. It also is who's your audience. So one could argue that if you are always looking at a very bespoke kind of luxurious property or project, that's whether it's an individual home or unit to some sort of cluster of units or a small boutique office building. That's one type of way to say your product begins to define what you are doing as an investor or owner, operator. One could also argue it's is it your return profile? So it could be something that's really quiet, really low key and not so sexy, glamorous or exciting, but you're hitting your returns and the next thing you know you, you start to build a credibility and candidly a pinnacle name or a pinnacle brand that's simply tied to, you know, the power of the return. And then obviously there's just outstanding operations. So regardless of what asset class, what type of product within the asset class, what markets one is in, when it's an impeccably run machine filled with transparent, smart, you know, quick on their feet thinking people, team spirited people, that's a win. No matter What. So, you know, I think, I think for those who are starting off in their own sort of investment ventures, they thinking through those three things would probably determine how they begin to think about a brand. But never losing sight of the fact that the personal brand still propels a lot of the market rep and the market communication.

Yeah, that's super helpful. And this show, this interview is about your story and not to make it about me, but if you think about, and again my team and we've worked really hard at is this james nelson.com and it's the insider's edge to real estate investing. That's what this, what's, that's what the book's called. That's what the show is. We are here to help investors gain that advantage to outperform the market. Now that that's kind of one piece to it. But then there's Avis and Young over here as well. And we're out selling properties all over the country. So like this feeds into it if we can educate buyers, investors about how to go about this. But then we also have this platform where we can provide these opportunities. But like, there's a look and feel to it. So when you see my stuff, hopefully it all looks the same. And I think that's kind of what you're talking about. And just the same way that maybe when you walk into an RXR building, you know that, you know that you're an RXR building. So what is it about? Is it the amenity package? Is it the lobby? Is it the collateral? Like, how do I know that I'm in an RXR building? And that might be very different for say, an office building as opposed to residential, Right?

Well, I think. Yeah, I know that's again, an excellent question. I'm going to, I want to go back to the power of Scott and like Matoro and Jason and Todd, you know, the owning partners are really just wonderful people. They are, they're approachable, they're kind. You know, I think when people think of kind of high stakes, big dollar real estate, there's a lot of eccentricities and strange personalities and this notion of these like megaloman, you know, megalomaniacal figures kind of permeate the American perception of what's involved. And then you meet the team at RXR and they're just these incredibly kind, approachable, rational, you know, just great sort of brand ambassadors, in my opinion, for the whole industry. And that what it should, what it should really be like.

So if I'm not mistaken, the Motto of the firm is, and I'm going to, of course now mess it up. But it's doing good. Good.

And doing well means doing better. Yeah. And it's. And so there's this kindness there and this is. There's a real sense of collegialness, which all stems from the top. So I would say the first thing that people pick up on in an RXR building is that there's just this. There's a calm there and there's this real sense of kind of sincere. People who work in the building seem sincerely happy to be there. And I think that's because we really are like, we. I mean, I remember a meeting where it was like my first day on the job was with rxr. It was an executive meeting. And Scott simply asked everyone at the table to give an opinion. And I literally was like a Sally floor. I'm like, so asking me to give an opinion. Because we've all. James, you know, we've sat in meetings where you've seen people. No one else in the room speaks except one person. So that's all real, that sense of collegialness and sort of pride in the workplace. So I think that's probably what's felt first. There's a tone to an arc that's.

Really interesting because you would never. That kind of ethos again. You would think, well, oh, is it the certain way that you decorate a lobby or the furniture? Like people think of brand as the way something looks. And what I'm hearing from you is this more like the feeling of it. Does that make sense?

And it's. I would definitely say there's a powered by people component. And I think some of that's also just because finger, you know, finger on the pulse. Scott and the executive team both. So both the partners of the company as well as us, that the actual executive team, we don't look at the assets in kind of this cookie cutter, modular way. The occupant of a 530 is very different than the occupant of a 230, which is different than occupant of a stare at Lehigh. And then now we can apply that to a newer, younger portfolio, the multifamily portfolio. But it's the same thing. You know, the resident of New Rochelle is different than the resident of Glen Cove, which is different than the resident in Dumbo.

Those buildings will have a totally different look and feel.

Yeah, I'd say what's consistent is there will always be. There always be an amenities log of some sort. There will be some, some thought through strategic placemaking in retail. There's service consistencies that are equal to all buildings, but it's all tailored and nuanced to the customer profile. That logically would be one, two things you have to think through on multifamily because it's also, it's a consumer product. There's the price point and then two, it's the location itself.

Right. And I'm sure that you thought about this question a lot from the retail side as well, when you were heading up the entire retail portfolio, curating. Right. The right type of retail and like thinking of the building. Okay, well, I could just think about getting the highest possible rent on the ground floor and just making a strictly financial decision. Or you could actually think about, well, how do I kind of curate this? How do I get the right tenant mix? So, you know, how do you, when you go to these areas, thinking about, well, you know, what are the right kind of tenants that someone might look for? And then how do you find out who you're building for? Like when you think about going into Tampa, for example, like who's going to be a renter? Is. Is this, you know, a young professional who's just moved there? Is it, you know, someone who's retiring and they don't want to deal with a home?

Is.

I mean, is it all the above?

So I think it is all the. But no, I think there's. There's two things I want to speak to on this that really tied to the white papers over the past few years and stuff that Scott has been very pronounced about in his own media appearances, which are obviously very high profile. The pandemic pivot is what Scott calls it. The pandemic has changed a lot. And some things maybe for a bit of trepidation, when you think of just where certain areas of the office market are today and some for the better, when you think of how people are living and operating in their communities or more multiple communities, because they don't have to be tied to one given place for 12 months out of the year. And then there's another layer to it. Scott uses the terms. And now I'm going to hate myself because I may not be saying it correctly. It's EDS meds and, well, eds, I believe is how he phrases it. But you go to these epicenters that are tied to high concentration of many different tiers of educational systems and layers, outstanding access to high quality medical care and medical research and pharmaceutical research, and then the sense of that in theory ends up drawing, employing a population both local and from out of region who represent well educated track for gainful employment across myriad industries. And so if you look at the markets we're in, when you start to think of Tampa, which by the way is still at a pricing discount to Miami Dade, but like Tampa, Phoenix and Greater Phoenix, Denver, which is actually Denver, seen a lot of population migration coming from the Silicon Valley and the Pacific, Pacific Northwest, which have gotten to be extremely expensive. Dallas, North Carolina and the research triangle that 100% supports that thesis. So we end up seeing what would fall, what would be commensurate with that, not to mention what we'll call the active, soon to be empty nester or empty nester that, you know, people living comfortably and actively well into their 80s who just appreciate good quality and don't need the occupancy costs of homeownership.

So Whitney, clearly you've gone very deep on these topics and thinking about like chief revenue officer and brand and I mean, how, how involved are you in the research when they say, hey, Whitney, we just, you know, we're thinking buying something in Tampa. What do you think about the market? Who should we be appealing to? What should we be looking? I mean, are these kind of the questions that you're getting in on the ground floor, or do they come to you like, hey, Whitney, we already bought this site. We're going to build, you know, 400 units. What do you think we should put in it? Like, at what point do you get involved?

You know, listen, in a perfect world, and Mike and Scott and Jason and Todd are really great about this. In a perfect world, the whole, the whole sort of ecosystem moves as one and it's just who's tipping? I don't want to say lasagna, because lasagna means like everything's moving with the same layers. It's more like it's a wheel. It's a tipping point. So one, there's every, every dimension of the business is, is tied to. When we talk about these vertically integrated companies, it's all tied to the common goal of we want strong returns on the assets and we want strong feedback and retention from our customers, whether it's commercial resi, what have you. So it's just which discipline internally is the top of the wheel, pushing it to get to the next discipline or whatever. It all sort of works as one. So in a perfect storm, we're all doing that. But there are definitely times where a deal is good. There's another level of pressure to set it to kind of Capitalize on something and done. Maybe it's a recap or a JV partner. They're knee deep in something and we just fundamentally believe in it. Where maybe to your point, it comes later to say this, this, this is conducive to 500 units, whatever that may be. What do you think should go here? But it's really, it's a team effort. We've been looking at a lot of things. Candidly, arcsar has a great lending and prefect platform. We've been very active in that space and have been looking at a lot of things where one would say, does it really need that layer of, of more of a detailed or forensic lens on what we're thinking about the leasing objectives if somebody else is on the hook for it? And I've been highly involved in those processes and ICs, and it's been awesome. It's actually a really great part of the process. So we try to be as consistent and committed to the full team ties to the whole acquisition. But there obviously and naturally will be times where it just doesn't work that way. And that's okay. That's just part of the business. Right.

That makes a ton of sense and that everyone's kind of. It's this kind of collaborative effort. And it starts from this. If you all didn't have kind of that white paper where you all understand kind of what is the thesis, right. Then everybody understands their role to execute on that. I'd love to also ask because, you know, your organization, Scott in particular has really been outspoken, I think, at the right times. Right. And he's not afraid to kind of make, you know, really be a leader. And what I'm talking about, of course, is right after Covid and we're trying to figure out what's happening with Return to. And like a lot of people are just saying, hey, everything's fine. It'll go back to normal. And you know, I don't know if you all kind of were talking in the meeting about this digital versus Kodak concept, but like, I really, my recollection was Scott was the first person to step up and acknowledge, like, you know what, the world's changed, office has changed. Some buildings unfortunately are obsolete. And so those assets, look, you know, we probably. We're not going to reinvest in those, but we really like these assets. So was that. I can't imagine that was just Scott on the fly with a reporter and that, like, there really had to be kind of a thought process behind that.

Scott. Scott's always like, I mean, I love Scott. Scott, Scott. There's nothing else to say. He's Scott. I mean Scott for a reason. Scott is always, I think there was a co cover that called him Great Scott. But that's literally, if you actually think of what Great Scott means, there's the literality to Great Scott and there's also just an expression of colloquialism like Great Scott, like something out of just sheer surprise and euphoria, like, that's Scott. Scott's always, I think, a generation or two ahead in seeing where the patterns are going and great foresight. So, you know, I think he's known this and if you recall James, because you've known our company for a long time, we already started that heavy commitment into the. Called him Great Scott. But that's literally, if you actually think of what Great Scott means, there's the literality to Great Scott and there's also just an expression of colloquialism like Great Scott, like something out of just sheer surprise and euphoria, like that's Scott. Scott's always, I think, a generation or two ahead in seeing where the patterns are going and great foresight. So, you know, I think he's known this. And if you recall James, because you've known our company for a long time, we already started that heavy commitment into the digital intel that you pull from stronger technology, stronger communication mechanisms, these flexible and modular pre built systems that allow for some real time changes to help offset construction costs and flexibility and things, you know, flexibility in how people come into the office. We already had a finger on the pulse of the companies, both large and small that were going to more of a higher density, more hoteling model for how employees were coming in and out of the office. So that Scott was far ahead to say that's already happening. Covid continued to catalyze that. So I think, I think he's always had the foresight that things were going to change and just making sure that we were really on top of it and ahead of it so that you, you know, you mitigate any pain points as quickly as possible and then really dive into the success points to catalyze and push them to the highest possible return.

Yeah, well, I really appreciate that, you know, and I think the industry does the statement as well because for a while everyone was again just trying to pretend like nothing had happened. Right. And I think he was kind of the first one to address and then others kind of follow followed suit and that's how you move forward. Right. You got to address the situation and Then say, how are we going to move forward? So look, Whitney, I'd love to now go back and talk a little bit about your story because I'm sure there's a lot of people listening who are saying, look, I'd love to be at the table with Scott Rechler and be part of those decision making process. And it was kind of. You told me that you didn't even think you were going to go into real estate. So you were Vanderbilt. And then where did you go from there? Because eventually you were a real estate broker before you went on to Vornado and Schfo. So kind of, how did this, how did this all happen?

So we. I went to Vanderbilt and I was like a typical, you know, product, I guess, of the 90s, if I'm dating myself, where, like, I didn't know what I wanted to do.

What was your major?

I was communications and theater, which Vanderbilt had a very traditional definition. It was actually like dramaturgy and art history. There was all these sort of humanities driven things tied to it versus like, you know, crawl around and make animal sounds and recite a monologue. It wasn't that necessarily that I also had classes that overlapped with engineering because it was in acoustical and lighting design. So it's a whole different level to the stuff that we did. But I loved it. And it ironically turned out to be great prep for real estate because there's times where you have an unlimited budget and you have to try to make it work and you have all access to all these great resources and set designers. And then there's times where it's like you're on a shoestring. The deadline is in two days and the show has to go on and just what is. What's going to happen? So. But honestly, I had no intention of going into management consulting or taking on a finance job. I didn't know what I really wanted to do. And I was interning with the music industry because the school's based in Nashville and I had really great mentors in the music industry. And at the time they made an offer for me, it was Warner Brothers Music. They made an offer to go out to Burbank. They had a hiring freeze, but it was in this very kind of not so exciting business administration role. And they said, or what we could do is put you in front of some people in New York or other places. It might not be with us, but it might get you to the place that you need to be. And then through that I got a job. Total irony. I worked at an investment bank that was going through its own kind of internal lbo and they were selling certain parts of the bank.

And this is from an introduction from Warner Brothers. Okay, maybe for another.

Yeah. And. But one of the projects I worked on was there. They had four office dispos. They had to get rid of a call. They had a heavy brokerage and trading components. They'd get rid of a call center and then they were consolidating their own offices at 590. And so it was like working with the brokers. What was happening with that. And then I just, I was back in New York. I was excited. So I got the itch to just do what else other kids in the 90s did. And I went to startups. You know, all of my friends like, went to these Internet companies and people are walking up these crazy packages. So I went to startups and I like to say there was a three year stretch on their resume that looked like an obituary. Like, not one of these things worked out, but it was great because then this is how you learn how to raise money. It's entrepreneurial. You learn how to put a business plan together, you learn how to sell, you learn how to market. You have to put all these things together for these conceptual ideas that in theory make hundreds of millions of dollars that never went anywhere. So that also still segued back to real estate, because one of the ventures very well capitalized. I won't call it a startup in the sentence of a dot com. In fact, when September 11 happened, because it was based on luxury travel rewards, we lost, understandably. The entire rewards portfolio had to walk. The private equity group behind it and a powerhouse in private equity actually peeled back all the intellectual capital and just said, we'll give the operating team a very nice set of, you know, a big package. But we're going to maintain this for 10 years because we still believe there's something viable here. So that was a different type of startup, but that my role still overlapped with real estate. It was the call center development in four strategic markets where call centers tended to be a hub for employment. Not to mention it was attracting all of the retailers that were tied to the earn. And then obviously the luxury, travel and rewards were the burn. But that also awakened my love for retail. So when you start to see how big box works in Arkansas versus big box outside of Chicago versus, you know, small independent in Florida compared to small independent in northern Virginia, it just, it was a fascinating lens on just people, how they, how they live, how they shop, how they do things. But I. So I worked on that project, and the two of the brokers who I worked with said, you know, don't know what you're interested in, but we think you might have a penchant for this. Why don't you think of temping with us for a bit? And there's a couple of RFPs we're working on, and maybe you can help support us with that. And if you like it, you know, get your license and we'll support you. And that's actually how I got into brokerage, so.

And a lot of our listeners are brokers as well. It can be a very tough business to get into, especially if full commission and we tell people, don't expect to make any money in the first year. Right? I mean, was this something where you able to come on as an associate, get some salary, or did you just kind of jump right into the frying pan?

So you. You come on. Listen, I will say this. For the brokers, it's a tough business, and I think it's. It's important for anyone to learn how to work on a straight commission, because if you're. If you could do it, you know, you could do it. If all the chips fail, you could figure something out for yourself in life. That's why I'm really happy I did it. So. But I'm telling you, there was a year where I think it was like Trader Joe's sauce and ramen. I mean, I think it was like, you know, you just figure stuff out. And peanut butter. Anytime there was, like, leftover lunches, you would see all the young associates, like, running to the conference room to grab the scraps of bagel. So. But you get hungry and you learn the market.

You were doing sales or leasing then.

So I was fortunate enough. I worked for the president's practice group, so I got to see a little bit of everything. And in the days of cold calling, I loved cold calling, because I actually didn't. You would hear. I always tell the story. You would hear some of these younger associates, and they sounded like, like extras in, like, the movie the Boiler Room, that they're overselling these sort of these, like, terminologies where you're like, this guy doesn't even know what he's talking about. I was always very polite. I would lean on the ea and I'd say, it's obviously not going to be, you know, how formal we had to be. James, you'd say, Mr. So and so or Ms. So and so, but it would be like, it's obviously not going to be Mr. Name CEO or CFO, but. But if you could point me to the right person. I said, and also I'd appreciate an email because they probably don't want to call from someone like me. Maybe I just sound too junior, but I'm calling on behalf of my boss, who's the president. And it was always like a magic win. So I took advantage of cold calling at a time where email was still novel and it was like it opened so many doors. So I actually love that part of it. But I worked on everything. A little bit of retail agency work, all of that.

You know, in that introduction, you just, you present as a normal person. You're not making a pitch, like, because when we all get cold called, right. And you know within two seconds that you're going to get a pitch.

Right.

And it's scripted and whatever, and just, you know, just addressing the situation and figuring out a way to make that connection really smart.

So we have a moment of levity and just a quick aside. How about the calls today? The new trend of people act like they know you. Like, hey, James, silence. You're like, hello, you know, hey, what's up? You're like, who is that? You know, it's just. So it's. Why.

And the emails and wait, do I know this person? I mean, look, the next wave of this, which is obviously you're going to have. Exactly. So you're going to have, you know, some AI call you instead. So for another show. So after brokerage, I mean, at some point, was it after there that you went to Vornado? Because that would be a. That'd be a big. A big jump from there.

Came out of that Vornado at the time, they did not. They still don't really use agencies. And it was more of a courtesy pitch just to kind of open up the doors and talk about the market. And literally after the pitch, I remember it was for 1740 Broadway. I got a call the next day, and it's like, we'd like to interview you and see if there's an opportunity for you to work with us. And the rest is kind of history. So I joined.

Vornito is a marketing role, though, right?

Yeah, I was a broker first. And at the time, they did not have what we'll call somebody in a traditional title of marketing. And to be fair, you know, the senior team there, Mike and Steve and David, they all just said, this is the title. But you'll figure it out. You'll figure it out.

Right? Again, just Like I asked you, what does the chief revenue officer do? Like, what should a head of marketing do? I mean.

Well, I think that was it. I remember I've shared this story before. It was Pizza Friday at Vornito, and Michael Facitelli was in, you know, there chatting with some of the colleagues. And I had not met him yet. So he introduced himself and he said, yeah, he's like, you know, we are really excited to have you on the team. He said, you know, we don't really do advertising. We are. We are very deliberate in our position on. On public relations. They. They're not alike. Allowed and proud.

Right. We're publicly traded company and, you know.

We don't put these glitzy sales centers together. So good luck. And, you know, Mike will chuckle at the story too. But it. I was like, oh, no, what does this mean? But I remember sitting with Steve one at one point, he said, but you'll figure this out. You will figure this out. So that's. They actually did not want someone coming from a very prescribed marketing background. They wanted a real estate person. I think they wanted someone who would just figure it out and figure out how to position the assets. And with, you know, Steve had a profound impact on shaping me as a professional. But Steve really looked at things from a true retail lens. It was the merchandise. All these buildings are your merchandise, and then it's the merchandise within the merchandise. And so using that tactic, you probably recall this. Some of the marketing centers, or sales galleries, whatever you want to call them, everyone has a different name, but they are some of the best and still are some of the best in the business. But Glenn Weiss and I really worked very hard on making those strategic and strategic to the intent and the tone of the asset itself. And then, not to mention all the customization and Taylorization that came out of just how they approach pitch work. And it was a really incredible learning period for me to see that marketing is not just an advertisement. That's. It's another thing that I think some in our business don't understand. There's so many layers to the marketing, even down to the customer service, the uniforms that the downstairs teams went, you know, the narrative that's used at a front desk, that's all technically tied to the brand.

Yeah. And Vornado no doubt accomplished that at the Penn District. And again, what do you call it? It's not a sales center, for lack of a better word, experiential center. The gallery. But. But I mean, you go in there and right off the bat, you understand okay. I'm not in this typical like 1960s, 70s building, like activating the ground floor and you have people out and about and you all certainly do that with your properties too. But then you go into this gallery and you have, I mean they had a light up with the whole city and the renderings and models of the buildings. I mean it's.

I'm really glad. So thank you for bringing that up, James. That's really important. So I think when you look at some of the underwritings that probably come across your plate and when you're thinking of what, you know, customers, you're going to put together to say this sale could be good for this person. One of the areas that's often forgotten about, even on the resi side, which is shocking because it's, it's all customer, it's all consumer facing. The marketing numbers are always like light or sort of the last thing thought through that. Thank you for touching on all that. When you realize what's involved in bringing especially ground up development or a 2 million square foot office repositioned to life. Life. You're talking about the latest technologies, augmented reality, virtual reality, AI. We do, we actually do a lot with AI. These stunning sculptural models that have every kind of technical bell and whistle in them. To see floors light up and have video projections then not to mention the physical cost of the center itself. Right. Beautifully designed, impeccable furniture that, that takes multiple disciplines and skills to bring that to life. So that's the kind of exciting and fun part of marketing that I think sometimes on the investment management side, people forget what's, what's, what's required to bring the film to life. Right.

Do you think it's challenging to demonstrate the ROI on that? Because let's just say you have two identical office spaces, right? But one does this incredible marketing center and tells the story and why, whereas the others just, you know, come take a look at the space. But the spaces are identical in theory. You know, how do you say, okay, we're getting a premium. And again, for those of you who are listening are saying, James and Whitney, this is great, but I don't own a 50 story office building. Look, this, this could be for. Let's go back to your 10 unit that you're doing right now and do you, you know, just slap something up on street? Easy to try to rent the apartments? Like are you actually thinking about the photos, the look, the feel, the materials that you're handing out? Like, what's the premium? Is what I'm getting at because like I think that's hard for people to wrap around. They, they think of marketing as just an expense. Like this is a cost, right, but how are you linking that to, you know, your role now as, as chief revenue officer? Where, where, where do you see the payoff?

So, so it's a combination of things, right? And again, it all goes back to the brand. If the brand is driving a certain premium to general market rate and the product designed automatically is going to command a premium just because it's being designed to a certain level of, of decor, luxury, design, you know, whatever that is. Spatial size of unit or amenity, the marketing engine helps educate the consumer more quickly to why it's differentiated. Whereas if it just sits on some premium spot on streeteasy, some of those subtleties that might support. And this is multifamily. So you might be looking literally at like $10 more a month than the unit next door. But that $10 more a month times 4 or 500 means that much more for the investment that could get lost if it's just a side by side comparison on an Internet listing service. Not to mention just when a lot of things fall within the same price point, this happens. Someone likes a particular neighborhood or location, they might look at four or five product on any given day and they have to make a decision. The design choices, that level of service, the programming, the technology and app tools, the takeaways. The takeaways that really have the photography looking absolutely attractive, like it's right out of Architectural Digest that also serves as the differentiator as to why that customer chooses that building. So there's more gratification in multifamily, not dissimilar to hotel. Because at the end of the day the space leases and you see it in real time, right? Every day there's a space that's trading or being retained, commercial a little bit different because there's other layers and intermediaries that also drive the decision. Right. You're looking at workforce, you're looking at a massive global budget tied to getting so many people into a space at a certain time to a location driver that has nothing to do with the photograph. It's like we really want to be by Grand Central. We really need to be on 6th Avenue for this reason. That may have nothing candidly to do with the, the marketing itself, the care of the building, the quality of the marketing center to show how the space could be realized in a more modern way or modern advent. And obviously quality of institutional owner or owner is probably the Bigger brand drivers from a institutional office decision.

Yeah, I love this discussion because it also applies so much to brokerage. Right. So when we're, when we list properties and we go and we speak with owners, say we're going to get you the highest price. Right. So how do we do that? Right, because there's a lot of things that most brokers should do. Right. You're going to post it on costar LoopNet, Crexi, you know, is it going to go on your company's website? But okay, all right, well now what, what else are you going to do? Right. And so, you know, the, the things and you could say the little things, the extra things. Like I don't know, when I do a video in front of a property and I post it, that my experience is I actually get better feedback from a video that I post on LinkedIn than an e Blast. Because I don't know if you're like me, but I get a thousand emails, I can't even keep up. It's just delete, delete, delete, delete. Where if someone's scrolling they say, oh wow, this is a cool looking building. Here's James. Let's hear what he has to say. I mean, I'm sure you've experienced that throughout your portfolio that you're trying to reach your tenant, be it either, you know, residential or office, in a different way than just, you know, getting a, getting a flyer through, through email.

Yeah, totally. And also, you know, there's, we can't abandon the brokerage force, the brokers especially. And listen, James, you and I have been around for a while, but some the same people doing monster deals 25 years ago are actually still doing monster deals today. Right? So knowing, knowing the right people to call and to commandeer and, and doing really good broker to broker education. And why walkthroughs and previews of things before it starts to go a bit more public to the industry side is really critical because you can start to get them excited about getting their customer excited or client excited. And that also helps with velocity.

Wonderful. So Whitney, with only a couple minutes left, because this has been super helpful, this is not the typical interview. I mean we typically interview the investor, the developer, the person who, you know, build the portfolio. But everything that you're doing in so many ways is helping the service, the support and the growth. So I think this is really interesting because there's probably someone listening or watching this right now who's getting their master's degree and they're like, okay, am I going to Go the typical route, which is I'm going to become an analyst and then I'm going to go into asset management and then I'm going to go and become an acquisitions person. That's great. Like if you're really wired to do that and you want to do your own portfolio, but like your journey and your role within real estate is a little, you know, it's not, not conventional. Right. So what would you say to that person out there listening and look, maybe they're not even taking any real estate classes in college right now. I mean, maybe they're doing communications right now. Maybe they're a theater major. Like, what would you say about your role getting into this world of real estate and the best approach to do that?

Well, Joanne Minieri spoke, I think it might have been at the NYU Women's Symposium and she had this great line and she said most people I know didn't major in real estate. They didn't, they kind of came into real estate from something else. So I still think that happens a bit. The grad programs I think have, have graduated, no pun intended, to having a dedicated real estate school or discipline within the business school or architecture school. Right. You can, that can tie on to kind of a real estate development crossover, but in the sense of like undergrad. I think a few now are starting to have real estate as tied to a business major or a concentration within the business that's still not technically like its own major. So I will say you have to know the number. I mean, my one regret is maybe I should have done a year or two, or maybe if I shifted major, maybe I would have done something that was a bit more financially driven. It just gives you a very solid foundation in an industry that ultimately is still driven by the investment and the return and all the complexities that happened through that process. When you think of really complicated financings and very complicated JVs and all the things that kind of of continue to bring sort of liquidity and premiums to things that just, you know, none of us necessarily see. Right. It all kind of lives in this Excel magic box. But all that said, you need to know the numbers. I think what my advice to people would be, if you're on that side of the business, if you have an appreciation for high quality design and you have an appreciation for the sales and marketing process, don't abandon it. You know, learn that layer, learn who the top architects are, learn where the trends in both living and work behaviors have gone. It just makes for a far more well rounded real estate Understanding. But then for the entrepreneurial stuff, it gives you such a leg up on how you think through your business strategy and your business case for layers that are often forgotten.

That was, I mean, incredible advice. And I think you're right. I think you do have to have, have a foundation with the numbers or at least an understanding. Right. So when you're making that case, and even if it is going on the marketing side, but again, to understand that that ROI and how that works, I think that is super important. But look, I mean, you've got an incredible story. You've driven a tremendous amount of value. Before we break, I have to ask you, because I saw this on your bio. This is unbelievable. So you've had a short film that was featured at Sundance and if I'm not mistaken, won 12 awards. Washington Post, International Herald, New York Times. What is that all about?

That was actually a feature length narrative. There was a shortage. Yeah, there was a short that was part of the Sundance Live, then the feature length narrative. So, yeah, I served as an executive producer supporting two, you know, wonderful friends of mine that were sued through, like the creative side of my life. And it was tied to a better understanding of, of post traumatic stress through those at the time serving, you know, in the Iraq, Afghanistan crisis and sort of what ensues with that. And I think one of the things we were most proud of is when it got to jury candidate selection for south by south by Southwest, which is a really big honor and film at the time. One of the heads of the Texas State Veterans Commission approached us to say that they really liked the film as a tool for understanding. And we. And so from a bipartisan perspective, that was really a big win because, you know, there's, there was controversy to the notion of the poor men and women who just had to go over and take care of things at a time where maybe it wasn't necessarily something that the rest of the nation supported or did support. Right. There was a little bit of controversy to the conflict itself. Married to post traumatic stress from a psychological standpoint, still had was tied to some controversial opinions of, well, what is it? Right? If it's not a physical wound that one can understand how it's been remedied or not, what exactly is it? Right. There's so many nuances to mental health and what that all means. So to realize that it got that level of endorsement as a teaching tool was a really, it was a wonderful honor, you know, at the time that it happened.

Yeah. Wow. That is amazing. I'm going to definitely have to watch that. And I don't know, amazing that you've done all this and that you were also an executive producer for such an incredible project. So, Whitney, this has been amazing. Thank you so much. We'll post in the show notes and everything, but what's the best way for people to follow what RXR is up to?

Well, LinkedIn, obviously, RXR has a handle there. Scott Rechler is a handle on LinkedIn and then on Instagram 1RXR. So definitely we love the support and we're very active in our own posting. So please follow us.

Us wonderful. And thank you everyone who joined. If you like this episode, I don't know how you couldn't share it with a friend and pass it along when you subscribe, when you rate the show and leave your comments, that also helps spread the word. And so we're here to help you gain the insider's edge to real estate investing. And that's exactly what hopefully I think we accomplished today. And a lot more. So as always, go to james nelson.com that's where you can find the show notes. It's a lot of helpful resources and also more background on Whitney and how to connect. So thank you again for joining. As always, until next week. Thank you.

Thank you, James.