The Leap with Kaitlin McCarthy

Welcome. This is the Insider's Edge to Real Estate Investing with James Nelson, the principal and head of Avis and Young's Tri State Investment Sales Group. In this program you'll learn game changing strategies to outperform the market. James will teach you how to source, execute and capitalize on the best real estate opportunities in New York and around the world. Now here's your host.

Welcome to show number 163 of the Insider's Edge to Real Estate Investing. This is your host, James Nelson. And once again on today's show we have a guest the introduction made courtesy of Michelle Klieger who is co founder of Girl Gang. And what an incredible organization. It's been great to get some some incredibly successful women on the show to talk about their stories. And as I said on last week's show, it's a great reminder for us all to plug in, join organizations that are active. This is very much an in person business. Also think about conferences, be strategic about them. But I found that actually many of my guests I've actually met, for example through BizNow, they throw some great conferences all around the country. It's also some of the advice that I give on my monthly career advice calls. I tell especially college students, look, this is an in person business. If you want a job, you need to show up, go to these conferences. I know it's uncomfortable. A lot of people don't like going up to into a room of people they don't know. But I promise you if you go and approach people saying that you're new, you're looking to get into the business and looking for advice, I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who would not be willing to give you some thoughts and maybe some meaningful introductions. So with that I will tell you that today's guest again Caitlin McCarthy. She established Ionic Development Company which is a certified women business enterprise in 2022. She has over 10 years experience working on development and construction projects in Boston. Before that she was the Vice president Hym Investment Group. She's worked on projects such as the Sudbury with 368 apartments and 55 condos and one congress which is the world headquarters of State Street Bank. Caitlin grew up in Connecticut and had an interest in architecture. Early on she studied engineering at Northeastern in Boston and leaned into construction management working for a company called Turner Construction. Got a great education there. While there she became fascinating, fascinated with the concepts and many pieces that went into creating a space to gain skills. To help her with development, she went on to Harvard for an mba. After finishing her studies there, Caitlin went on to management consulting and worked for Boston Consulting Group and from there she made the transition into real estate when she joined Hym Investment Group. During the pandemic, Caitlin used the time to step back and realized she wasn't seeing any women owned developers in her area. She had an aha moment and thought maybe I can go out and try this on her own and to make a difference in what became the scene of the Boston real estate development. And so in 2022 she took the leap and started her own company. And even though the market is going through a challenging time, Caitlin has found opportunities to pursue development management assignments and projects. From brainstorming, storming the answer in handling office buildings to using technology in new ways, she focuses on the task at hand and maintains a willingness to take risk risk. She believes that mindset and trying new things and thinking differently will help her and her company set apart in coming way. So I know you're going to get a ton of value out of this episode. As always, you can go to james nelson.com that's where you can find the show notes and contact information so you can connect with Caitlyn. We're going to have a brief word from our sponsor and we'll get right into that Interview with Caitlyn McCarthy.

A.

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And now it's my pleasure to welcome Caitlin McCarthy who is founder and CEO of Ionic Development Company. Caitlin, thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you for having me James.

Wonderful. And thank you again to our mutual friend Michelle Klieger who is kind enough to put us in touch. And I know that we also have this BizNow connection. I know a lot of our guests here on the show have been part of the Biznow network and that incredible conference that they do down In Miami, Although we found out that you have been going to the Ascent Conference, which is really, you know, what I find the younger up and comers and I've now been relegated to the escape, which is more of the, you know, hopefully not over the hill, but I am certainly hopeful that our paths will cross. So welcome again.

So they need to start doing a bridge day.

Absolutely. Believe me, if I could. There have been years when I've done both and so. But don't want to press my luck. So, Caitlin, tell us a little bit about your story. I know you're in Boston now, but tell us where you grew up, maybe how you found your way into the business.

Sure. So I originally grew up in Connecticut, and I really started with an interest in architecture. I was this childhood drew houses. When my friends were drawing flowers and animals, I was sort of drawing structures. So that's where I sort of really knew that I wanted to be in the built environment. And as I was considering different majors for college, I was also really interested in something math related. And so engineering for me seemed like a nice fit between the two. Kind of architecturally, you could think about how buildings are built, but then also you have the kind of intense math tie in with engineering. And so I came to Boston for the first time to study engineering at Northeastern University. And what's great about that program is you get to do three different co ops. And co op is a little bit different than internship because it's six months long. You get actually paid a nice little salary, and you get to really dive in and experience different facets of what you're studying. And. And so it was really through the co op program that I found my way through. I did a bit of transportation engineering, a bit of structural engineering, and found my way into construction management. And so what I liked about construction management, I worked for a company called Turner Construction here in Boston, you've probably heard of them, was that you got to take a big picture view of the project and you got to really work in a team and. And interact with a lot of different people throughout the day. So when I graduated Northeastern, it was kind of a natural fit. And I started working at Turner here in Boston, where I worked for just over five years. And throughout that process, I really loved being a part of building these big buildings, but wanted to understand what happened before the drawings were even done, sort of why the decisions were made to build somewhere, who came up with the vision, kind of all the pieces that went into creating a space. And so that's when I really Set my eyes on development. And I thought that it would be good to get a set of skills to complement the engineering side of things with the business side in order to bring those together to look at things from a development point of view. So that's when I decided to get my mba. I went to Harvard here in Cambridge or technically Boston for my mba, and while I was there got to study all the other things that you would think about in a development besides just the design and engineering. So the finance, the strategy, and of course in a more general manager, in a more general manner. It's not a real estate specific program, but sort of all the ingredients involved. And I really wanted to continue on that path of kind of exercising this other half of my brain. So after hbs, I actually decided to leave real estate for a little bit and go into management consulting. So I went to a company called the Boston Consulting Group and did nothing related to real estate, but got really good training as far as business and strategy and working with Fortune 500 companies on just executing business plans. And so through that process I was able to really hone those kind of what I'll call the other half of the skills. And then I realized I really missed building things. I think once you're involved in real estate, specifically in development, I think it's very hard to go do something else. To be able to see a building built from a piece of paper is really a special thing. And so I decided to come back into real estate development and I was put in touch with a company called the Hym Investment Group here in Boston. They're a Boston based large real estate developer. I started with them back in 2017 and was there for just over five years working on a large mixed use project here in Boston called Bullfinch Crossing. It had, it was a 46 story residential tower with over 300 units, a million square foot office tower which is now the world headquarters of State street bank. And it had a few other buildings within the master plan. So that's where I really got to experience development and really cut my teeth. And then it was probably during COVID that I took a step back and realized I was kind of ready for a change and ready to kind of take a risk. Just kind of looking at where I was in my life and also was looking around and really not seeing any women owned developers in Boston. And so all of these sort of pieces were coming together and finally I just sort of had an aha moment that said, well, maybe I can go out and try this on my own. And, and kind of try to make a difference in what the scene of Boston real estate development looks like. So that was about a year ago when I left and started my company.

Wow, that is amazing. No, that was, that was perfect because now I've got a lot to unpack here. But that, what incredible experience and what a journey. So I want to go back to when you were showing up on the job for Turner and you're gravitating towards real estate. But I've got to imagine, unless of you telling me differently, you know, the commercial real estate business, the construction business, you don't see a lot of women in the business. Right. And so now since I see that you're also involved heavily in the women's development collaborative professional women in construction. So there's no doubt been a lot of advancements. I'm hoping you'll, you'll tell us over the last, you know, say 10 plus years. But when you were initially thinking about getting to the business, weren't you. Were you a little concerned that you'd be able to break in or what? What gave you the confidence that you could be successful in this industry?

I was really lucky to be a part of institutions that for, for, at the time had really great, I'll say, numbers as far as women. So when I was at Northeastern, about 30% of my engineering class was women. When I was at Turner, similar numbers of women kind of within the ranks in Boston. And not only that, but really Turner had women in key leadership positions that I was able to look up to and everybody really respected. And so I was sort of lucky in that sense that I was, I experienced institutions that had already been far ahead of their peers as far as incorporating women. So they, to be honest, it's not something that I really thought too much about. I felt like I had women to look up to and it was more. It's not something I paid attention to too much, kind of especially at the junior levels, because that is where you tend to see more women as well. So it wasn't until I got more senior where you start to look around and see kind of, okay, where did all the women go?

Wonderful. And I would imagine, you know, that those technical skills that you acquired early on, that engineering background, I'm sure that served you well throughout your career. So I mean, how much, when, as you look to build your foundation, you know, with that background, certainly with the HBS degree, how much of that has helped you throughout your career?

I think it's helped me a lot. I think sort of especially as you say, as you look around and don't see many people like you, it does help to be more technically proficient. I think it just helps to sort of remind people that you do have the background to be there. And I feel like I spend a lot of my day translating between engineering and maybe investors or owners or co developers, because having that language of engineering and having the language of what potential risks could be or sort of problems that the design team is facing is a unique thing to be able to do. And so it's been tremendously helpful, I think, especially on the development side of things, where some of the biggest risks can lie underground or kind of in the structure of a building. And so it's really helpful to understand how those things are put together and what are. I kind of know enough to be dangerous in what to ask as I'm thinking about how a project will be built.

Got it. No, that makes a ton of sense. And it's, I'm sure, you know, you found value from that experience and it's certainly going even to business school. And I, I never attended business school, but from what I've heard, it's, it's a lot of, you know, team collaborative case studies. So. And then you go and you have a, you know, a consulting experience. So, you know, I would guess that your ability to think collaboratively, I'm sure as you've approached, you know, whether places that you've worked or even today as you look to build your company, are you. Do you have that consultant hat on while you're looking to think of those, make those decisions?

Definitely, you have to take the consultant hat off sometimes. And you don't always have to put everything in a PowerPoint deck. But I will say that for sure, what the consulting allowed me to do was look at things from a strategic point of view and a finance point of view, especially if I'm working with big institutional investors and sort of having worked with large institutions like that, sort of understanding how they work, how things get done, how they get approved. But for sure, team kind of dynamics was a big focus at the NBA. And in fact, I forget which schools. One of the schools I interviewed for, it's not even an individual interview, they actually put you in kind of this fishbowl situation with a team to see how you work in a team. So I do think that across the whole, people have realized in order to be a part of and run a successful company, you absolutely have to be able to understand how to work in teams, how to motivate a team, what sort of dynamics to look for. And so I think that's what originally also drew me to kind of this what I'll call side of engineering, the more oversight kind of role. And it's been something that I continue to learn every day. I mean, each team is a little bit different. And so thinking about how you want to set your team up for success and then making sure along the way you're checking in to see that everybody in the team is thriving.

So maybe talk just. Just to go back one more time then. I want. I want to kind of move forward and talk about what you're up to now. But the decision to leave real estate, get into consulting and then go back in. So kind of what was, you know, what made that initial change and then what prompted you to jump back in?

Sure. I really saw my two years at BCG as an extension of my time at hbs. I had spent all of this time learning these new skills and I wanted to put them into practice and really stretch that side and those skills kind of outside of the real estate development market. And I felt like at a company like bcg, I would get Best in Class training. And that was absolutely the truth. I mean, everything from writing emails, running steering committee meetings, meeting with boards, it's a different kind of experience than you might get at sort of a traditional, especially a smaller real estate development company. And so that's definitely something I wanted. And I was sort of knew that because I had the background in real estate, it would work. It would be kind of, I don't want to say easier to come back. It wasn't like I had to draw the line for a lot of people as to how the experience in BCG relate could be related to real estate. The answer is we're all generalists. And like, part of being a great developer is being a generalist. But I think that coming back, what it really, what really it came down to is I just missed building things. I mean, I would be sitting at the BCG office and looking at the building being built across the street and just be thinking about how they're doing it, why they're doing it. And so once I felt like I got a good chunk of what I was looking for at bcg, I decided it would be time to come back into real estate.

That's awesome. So talk a little bit about Hym Investments. So how did you end up finding an opportunity there? You were vice president there, so talk about, did you come in as a vp, maybe talk a little bit about your experience there.

As I was kind of networking and starting to talk to people about looking for a job opportunity. A few different people pointing me towards Tom o', Brien, who's the founder of Hym. And we just really hit it off from the beginning. And they were a company that was growing super fast. So we were probably 19 people when I joined and now there are over 40 people. So really an incredible growth time for them. So I was able to join as they were kicking off the Bullfinch Crossing project. And I started as a project manager and then worked my way up to vice president throughout my time there. And it was such an incredible place to be, especially during that time of growth, because I was able to really dig in and be a part of that and help the company grow while also working on what I think was the most exciting project in Boston, just right downtown, right near City Hall. Mixed use. I mean, it's not often that you're building skyscrapers in Boston. And so it was just really incredible to be a part of that and just such a great team. The leadership there is super supportive and it was really a hard decision to leave because I just, I did love my time there.

Talk a little bit about being a project manager because we, you know, on this show I've had the pleasure of interviewing investors, developers, but there's a lot of people who've made project management their career. So can you talk a little bit about what was your day to day like? Just give people a sense of what that experience was.

I'm going to use the cliche and say no. Daytoday was the same, but. But you know, you could be going from meeting with your capital partners in the morning to a subcontractor in the afternoon. So really just covering the gamut of the budget on a project to are you dealing with some sort of government entity? For us it was, are you dealing with the T or BT or the transportation department on sort of figuring out how you're going to get something done? Or was it a problem that came up during construction that now you need to bring together the right experts to figure out? So really every day was different, but a lot of it came back to sort of this translation of taking maybe a technical problem or taking a specific to Boston problem and translating it to our other partners who maybe weren't as familiar with Boston or weren't as familiar with kind of the technical aspects of, of how to build something.

That's great. Thank you for sharing that. And transitioning and promoted to vp. So did you really feel like you had a Seat at the table, Whether it was acquiring the properties, having those conversations with capital partners. What was the. What was that experience like?

Definitely, you know, part of the joy of being at a small company is that you get to. You get to be involved in anything, whether you like it or not. And so I was able to kind of see all the assets, all the facets of the project. Definitely had a great relationship with our capital partners, was part of when we brought in new capital partners, and then, of course, got to be a part of Deep, deeply involved in the design of the buildings. That's where it kind of sometimes being a woman, you get to offer this unique point of view about certain things, and that's where you really start to see the. The benefit of diversity around the table. And so, yeah, I was. I was lucky that I got to be involved in. In the whole process, kind of from beginning to end of these massive projects.

And they seem like they were no doubt incredibly successful. But we all know that development. There is a lot of challenges along the way. I mean, certainly, I'm sure you were exposed to times when things were not doing great. And maybe, and I don't know if there's any specific circumstance you can share, maybe something where things didn't go as planned and how you were able to reposition or come back or any learning experiences along the way that you could share.

Sure. I would say during the last DownTurn, back in 2008, I was working on a project during my role at Turner, where we actually had three subcontractors go bankrupt during the process because the market was bad. It was really the only project happening in the city. And so everybody. Everybody really depressed their price so that they could get the work. But then it turns out that the price was too low. And I learned a ton throughout that process, more than you'd ever want to know about insurance and all the different types of insurance on a project and who steps in and who steps in a little bit later. And so that, for me, like, that really, as we enter what maybe in the next downturn, maybe we're already in. It depends who you ask. I think one of the things that I'm thinking about is sort of making sure that what might seem like a great deal doesn't necessarily mean it's, like, successful for the project if you're on the construction side of things. And so that's something I'm thinking about. I think during COVID for sure, everybody saw a shift in how they were thinking about future properties and whether it made sense to sort of rethink the design, rethink the use of a project. And so, and I think we're still going through that. I think everybody's thinking about assets that they have or assets that they're looking at and thinking about what is the new normal and what is, you know, office probably isn't dead, but what does the office or some people don't even want to use the word office anymore, the third home or the workplace or however they're terming it now. So I think it's probably going to be different things that happen during this downturn than the last one. But definitely keeping an eye out for what those things might be.

No, you definitely. This is a business where oftentimes you have to learn on the job and figure it out. Obviously sometimes that can be challenging and stressful, but you know, that ability to problem solve and learn really makes it interesting. So talk a little bit about, I mean on one side and, and you know, you'd said that the consulting, that was really kind of an extension of your education. But thinking about the role of the consultant, which is, you know, there you're not necessarily taking that risk on the front line, you're helping advise. So you're on kind of one end of the spectrum and then going to the developer side. Right, which is, you know, if you look at the risk profile, you know, your name on the line, that's a very different. There's probably not a lot of consultants turned developers out there. But you know, how do you think about, you know, your risk tolerance, your approach, you know, it kind of really gets to kind of the, the core of your DNA because that's a very different mindset.

Yes. I think if you had asked me before COVID I would have told you I was a very risk averse person. And then yeah, I think Covid sort of jolted us all and gave us a little bit. And again, I'm going to go into cliches here. Life is short, you know, go big or go home. And I think a little bit, I think a little bit had to do with the timing of my decision. Again, right now feels like the right time in my life to be taking that risk. I sort of feel like if things were to go wrong, then I would have still some time to recover and be able to retire. And so that's kind of how I'm thinking about it now. I also think that given where we are in the cycle, I'm probably glad I didn't start my company a year earlier and hope be holding on to assets So I think I didn't plan it to start right when the economy started to go down, especially in real estate, but I think it's been helpful and so to kind of be at the bottom of the cycle. And so that's kind of how I'm thinking about it now. But it's definitely something that I ask every developer I meet, which is, how did they get comfortable with it? How do they think about it? A lot of people just don't think about it. They just say, you know, I know that if I get into a pickle, I'll figure it out. And so I think everybody takes a little bit different approach. And I think I'm still, you know, depending on the day you ask me, will be thinking about it a little bit differently. But it's definitely something that's top of mind and something I had to think a lot about and get comfortable with.

And what about. So you're at this great development company, you're a vp. I mean, maybe the track, I assume if you had been there five, 10 years longer, at some point, maybe a partnership, I mean, did you ever think, well, hey, you know, maybe, you know, if I continue to grow with this company, I can take more of a, a leadership type role. I mean, was that ever a thought in your mind or you just said, look, I need to do this on my own. What was that decision to make the leap when you did?

Yeah, I think there was a great path for me there and something I would have been really happy with as well. But I think I just kind of had this kind of gnawing inside to do something on my own, to take a risk and to. Also, I really was impacted by the fact that I looked around and saw no women owned developers in Boston. And there was sort of this, if not now, when, if not me, who type thing. A little bit of be the change you want to see in the world if you want to roll your eyes a little bit. But I think that once I sort of saw that, I couldn't unsee it. And so it was just sort of eating away at me and I wanted to try to make a difference and try to try to go. Go for it on my own.

No, I love that and it makes, it makes a lot of sense. So this is still pretty new. So Ionic is how long since you launched your new platform?

A little over a year.

Okay. And had you already identified projects? So this was kind of a clean slate. I'm going to rebuild this from scratch. Okay, so you're nodding. And so this was Kind of building this from the ground up. So what is the vision for Ionic? What's, what's the game plan? Is it just you right now? Do you have a team? What are the steps? Because I think this is really interesting. I'm sure a lot of people listening to this and maybe they're working at a big development shop right now and they've been thinking, you know, I want to make the jump at some point, I want to do this on my own. So how do you, I mean, you now have a year of building and setting up your platform. Tell us about what that was like, how you've gone about this. I'm sure again, this consulting mindset of okay, what are best practices, how do I build the team? You know, where did you start? And take us through the last year?

Sure, I started with a clean slate. I think I sort of took the approach of, first of all, it didn't feel right to me to try to set something up before I left. And also it would have frankly been impossible to do. It's a very small town, as I'm sure all real estate communities are. And you know, it just didn't feel right to me to kind of start before closing the door on another thing. So.

And I don't want to stop you there, but I don't want to lose it because I hope everyone just really paid attention to what you said because, you know, I think it's human nature to think, okay, well I wanna, I don't wanna make the jump until I have something. And you know, you're right though, especially if you're in. There are exceptions. Okay. I, I've had some friends who work for a big developer and they say, look, this is what we do. We do 100 million dollar plus projects. We're office and I'm, I've got a side gig and a hustle where I'm going out and I'm buying multi. But I'm assuming what you're going to tell me is what you're ultimately looking to build is some, you know, you're in the same market for starters, doing the same thing. So completely respecting the fact that you said, look, I am starting with a clean slate with, with no leads, no, you know, so I don't want to lose that. So I'm sorry.

Thank you, I appreciate that. And a lot of people wouldn't be comfortable making that, that leap. And so it's, it's a question. I get a lot. I definitely made sure I had enough savings to sort of get me by for A while, knowing that I might not be working on anything for a while. And I sort of did a little bit of a roadshow when I left. So I reactivated my network, just got out there and started talking to people about what I was doing. You know how it works. Every person puts you in touch with two other people you should talk to. And through actually network connections I already had, I was able to source a few projects. That one is in a consulting manner that was able to sort of tide me through a little bit, but wouldn't take up all my time. And then where I've really found success with other real estate partners. So just backing up for a second, I knew that I wanted to work on big projects because it's all I worked on now. Working on big projects and entering as a new company. A small company doesn't necessarily jive all the time. So I knew that sort of the path for me would likely be partnering with other developers. And where that really comes into play is in these public RFPs. So when the city or the state put land out for bid, specifically in Massachusetts, they use what's called the massport model. And what that means is they value diversity of the team at 25% of their criteria to select a developer. So being a woman owned developer has been an asset in partnering with other developers. But I was very careful on which partnerships I wanted to enter. I didn't want to do a pay and go away situation where you're just sort of there in name only and not actually working on it. So I've been able to find partners to work with that we've gone after bids together. And so as an example, I worked with a group to go after a 200 unit affordable housing building in the Seaport that we're still waiting to hear back on whether we won that one. I also worked with a group to go after almost 2 million square feet, most of it life sciences, but really a mixed use project. And that's another RFP that's pending. So I've been able to partner with these groups to go after these RFPs. The way that the Massport model is really set up is the idea is you take an established company and we do it all across the board. We do it with all of our design team members, all of our consultants, and we have them partner with a minority or woman owned business who's up and coming, like myself and you create this mentorship model. The idea is to help build more capacity and help grow the amount of women and minority owned businesses working in commercial Real estate in Boston. So that's really been a helpful model for me as I move forward and then through different projects, I've also been kind of making new partners and doing, working with some of the partners on my bids on other projects. And so one thing has sort of led to another, but what it's really come down to is really great partnerships and great mentors.

That's awesome. Caitlin, this is really, I love how you approach this and the fact that you said, I'm not going to just go do small deals because that's not who I am and where my experience is and to figure out, you know, how to team up and go after these projects, really smart. But Caitlin, I am going to press you a little bit on this idea of picking the right partner because, and it's interesting because this is really how my book starts out as well, because a lot of the advice I give to aspiring investors if you don't have tens of millions of dollars in the bank, is to find a great partner. So I, I really want to dig in on how you find that right partner because, you know, and I really appreciate what you said that you don't want to just check the box and say, okay, I've, I've fulfilled your diversity requirement. Like, I want to add value. And if I had to guess, you're probably adding a lot more than 25 of the value to these equations. So how do you know and find a partner who's really going to appreciate the value that you bring to the table and really work with you in a collaborative fashion? Because I'm sure when you know, when you first meet a partner and you're in the hunt together and everything's great, but then you start rolling up your sleeves and getting to work. And so how do you find that right partner?

I got really great advice from a minority owned developer who said, you'll know when you go to negotiate the first operating agreement. Are they open to your comments on it or not? And that's sort of like a first place where you find a red flag, which is are they open to negotiating with how you're going to work or is it sort of this is it, just sign it and move forward. I've also been lucky in sort of all the partners I've worked with I've either known for a while or have come with introductions of people who I've known for a while. So it's all sort of been warm relationships that I was able to have very frank conversations with them up front about what I was looking for and what I was not looking for. And, you know, at some point, it's not going to be perfect. You can't, you can't fully vet everybody. But I've been really lucky, and my partnerships so far have turned out to be really meaty and really a great experience for me.

Can you talk about any of those projects yet, or is it still premature? I'm sure there's sensitivity with RFPs, and if you have proposals out. But are there any live projects that you're working on right now that you can share about?

Sure. So I'm working on a few life science projects right now, one of which is actually in the dry dock with a group called Cronin Development. And we, as part of the project, there's going to be three buildings. And they've also, Cronin has bought what's called Boston Ship Repair. It's actually a dry dock where they literally repair ships. And it's one of the last few remaining dry docks on the East Coast. And so, as you can imagine, like a lot of other industries, when you have more expensive labor in the Northeast than you do when you're competing against, there's a dry dock, I think, in Louisiana, that's kind of the biggest competitor, you run into issues of competitiveness. And so that's been really interesting because not only is there kind of land that we're developing buildings on, but we're also looking at it as a lens of how we can support Boston Ship Repair. It's a really critical asset to the city, the state, and the Northeast. And so that's been really cool to sort of incorporate that aspect. And then we've also implemented programs over there of job training and really figuring out how to get, how to work, diversity in kind of all the various angles. And so as part of the project, we've been able to look at it from a lot of very different lenses and things you would never think about, about how a dry dock might operate. And so that's been a really exciting project. And so as part of that project, there will be life science buildings with kind of what are called, like, marine uses on the ground floor. So it's kind of part of a marine park. It's, it's right on the water. It's a very unique situation.

So how did you learn how to execute a project like that? I have to imagine that there is, you know, a lot of, unless if you're telling me you had a background having done life sciences before or building on a dock or marine type uses, how much of this was new to you? And if the answer was a lot, how did you figure it out?

I actually built my first life science project back in 2009, before it was even a big thing in Boston. And so I've been lucky to have different touch points throughout my career with life science. That first one, I remember thinking, this is crazy. You have to put special drywall in so the mice don't chew through. And just that one was sort of, you know, as in a. In a junior role going through the drawings. That was really probably the best way for me to learn all the different parts of a life science project specific to the ship repair project. We, the. We have a really good relationship with the leadership there, and they've been great at sort of working with the team on how these things run, because, of course, I have never run a dry dock. And so it's been really a great collaboration there. And they're part of everything. They're in the design meetings, they're in all the meetings to figure out kind of what the site will look like. And then on a lot of these things, you rely on your consultants and sort of putting on that generalist hat again. You need to be able to get up to speed on something quickly, understand what the key issues are, and then execute. So I would say that it's a little bit of learning along the way, a little bit of relying on your consultants and making sure that you have the best people on your team.

Fantastic. Well, that is really exciting with only a year under your belt in a pretty challenging marketplace to land an assignment like that. So what is the next five years look like for you? I mean, as you think about, okay, where do I go from here? And I can't remember if you said, so, is there a team yet? Maybe let's talk about building out that group. I mean, fast forward five years from now, what is your. What does Ionic look like?

Sure. So we are two people now, and I hope to grow. So in one year, we've doubled from one to two, but I hope to double again in a year. But I think that. I think that all of us hope we're out of this weird, murky market situation where nothing's really moving, because I think that it just. It makes everything so hard. And so I'm hoping to get to that point where you can start to, I guess, be more excited about the deals and be more excited about everything happening and not feel like you're looking around the corner for, like, what's the next, you know, deal? That's not going to go through or like something. And so I think it'll be exciting to sort of get out of this trough. And then as far as the company, I do hope to grow hopefully to five people in five years. And yeah, I would love to have gone through a full project cycle as Ionic. And of course the dream one day is to be able to be the lead developer on something and maybe even help, you know, the next, the next generation of women minority owned businesses coming up.

Wonderful. So talk about if you're doing public private partnerships and these are I would assume, longer term projects. Right. I mean if you're building a life science project on a dock, I doubt you're going to tell me that this is going to be an 18 month turnaround time. So thinking about these projects that have longer lead times, how are you financing the business? How are you keeping things going? So why don't, why don't we start there?

What's been great is sort of the consulting side of things. So I've taken on some development management assignments as well. And those 10, those are more stable kind of fee based roles. And so what's great has been balancing that and having sort of the two sides. One is more risky, one is more stable. And so that's been, that's been the plan so far. There's a few companies that I really look up to that have that model and it's worked well from them. And so I think that that's a really great model I'd love to emulate.

Perfect. And what about raising capital for these deals? I mean, when you come to one of these proposals and you're part of the code GP and you're one of the developers, what is the expectation about equity that you're bringing to the table?

Yeah, the, there's a couple different ways that I've looked at it with partners. It could be a percentage, it could be sweat equity, it could be you're working together to find capital partners to and you're just raising together. So it's really unique based on the different deals, but there's been successful ways to do it when you sort of. Obviously I don't come to the table with billions of dollars. And so there's, there's been successful and creative ways that I've talked about with my partners about how to kind of work that in.

I would also imagine that if you're going to an institutional partner and you might have the connection. Right. But if it's, you know, you and you know your, your current company and again, brand New track record. It's probably much easier to go and make that ask when you've got that development partner who might have, you know, a longer term track record. Is that true?

Yeah. Yeah. And that's a lot of the reason why this has been kind of a great way to get started because like I said, I do really want to work on these big projects. And, and so that's, that's, that's been the way that I see to remain kind of working in that space.

Perfect. So, and you talked about kind of the vision of where you want to grow the company, but what is the portfolio look like? I mean, where, where are you seeing the opportunities? You're right. This is a very challenging market. I mean, life sciences has got to be the hottest, the hottest asset classes. So that's, that's a great place to be right now, especially in a very constrained market like Boston. But you know, I would imagine that part of what makes the existing life sciences so valuable is that it's very challenging, you know, to create more life science space. And I know there's a lot of people out there might say, oh, well, we'll just take these old office buildings and we'll convert, convert them to life sciences. But for a lot of reasons that doesn't work. So maybe you could first kind of address life sciences, because I don't think we've talked a lot about that on this show. Maybe let's start by telling everybody what it is and kind of what you're building and then maybe talk about what other kinds of projects you would do in the future.

Sure. So life sciences, I would say most popularly what it means around Boston is sort of you're building things for pharmaceutical companies to do research. There's also a lot of universities and hospitals around here who would build similar type buildings. Sometimes that falls under healthcare, but sometimes life science, there's a lot of overlap between the two and it's a very specific type of construction because the mechanical system is different. It's a different floor to ceiling height that you need. There's a lot that goes into the design, but also from a rent perspective, it's treated differently than just your typical office client. A lab tenant will pay, pay for rent for the equipment on the building or on the roof. And it's a different load factor. And so it's a bit of a different animal in that sense. Part of the reason life science has been so strong is a, in Boston, because of the educational institutions and the medical institutions, there's a lot of desire to Be here. And I think too, just as an asset class as a whole in real estate, it's work from home proof. You can't do your, you can't run your experiments, you can't work at a lab bench from home. There's very specific mechanical equipment needed, fume hoods, etc. It's not the type of thing you can just do in your kitchen. And so that's kind of why it's been this, this really strong asset class here in Boston. And, and all indications is that it will continue to be a strong asset class. It might not be kind of as intense as it's been over the last five years, but that in general the next 10 years as an outlook in the life science industry looks really strong. And so I think that Boston will continue to attract these major companies and VC backed biotech startups. And so I definitely think it's something that's not going away anytime soon here in Boston. Mm.

And then what other types of projects would you like to do in the future?

I love mixed use. I love multifamily. I, I think that everybody has the huge question as to what's going to happen with these office buildings because office to resi is not an easy thing and it doesn't make sense in a lot of cases. And so I know that I've been brainstorming sort of what is the answer here and what do we do with these office buildings. And I think if, if whoever can figure out a creative answer to that will be, we'll have a lot of work ahead of them. And so I think for sure that that's, that's something I have an eye on. I also have my eye on there's been some zoning changes in Massachusetts around transit Oriented Development. That's going to open up a lot more opportunity for multifamily along transit oriented routes. And so that's something I'm keeping an eye on as well to kind of see what opportunities that might unlock in areas that weren't necessarily zoned for multifamily before or didn't weren't sort of as open to multifamily. So I think that that's something I'm keeping an eye on too.

Wonderful. So Caitlin, with only a couple minutes left, first off, what would you say throughout your career has given you the inside edge?

That's a great question. I think that my background of both technical and business is something that sets me apart from my peers and allows me to take a unique point of view in things. I also think this sort of not. Not focusing so much on the problem. Like, one of the first questions you asked me was, how did you. Were you nervous to go into an industry with. Without a lot of women? It's just not something. And maybe it was naive of me. It's not something I paid attention to coming into the industry. So I sort of came in, like, full steam ahead. I didn't let that become, like, something in the back of my mind. And so I think it was just, like, focusing on the task at hand. And I think right now, the other thing is just being willing to take a risk. And I think that that sort of. I was sitting down today with my team member, and we were sort of listing out, like, what are, like, the key values of the company. And I think one of the ones we put up there was try new things. Like, we want to be trying. New technologies. We want to be trying. We used ChatGPT to do something today, and it was, like, very cool, and it worked out really well. And I think that that's not something that traditionally real estate development companies have thought about is like, how can we use technology? And so I think that that mindset of sort of try new things, see if it works. What are the new technologies? How can we think about this differently than it has been thought about for 100 years? I think those are the things that will really start us apart in the future.

Love that.

That is fantastic. So, and then last, what would you say to someone who's thinking about getting into the business? And again, maybe it's someone who is at a big shop right now. They're at that inflection point and they're thinking about, you know, making that leap. What is it? What is the advice that you would give them on what to consider before making that leap or staying?

Yeah, I think so much of it has to do with your own personal situation, I think, and, you know, where you have. Where you can take a risk and where you maybe can't take a risk, but it is. It is scary as hell to do, and the highs are high and the lows are low. I would say that if you do decide to make the leap, to make sure you have a really strong support system, friends, family, whoever, because it requires a lot of mental stamina to get through this. And, like, part of that is making sure that you have a support system around you that's helping you through those tough days, especially if you're starting out alone, like I did, making sure you have people that you can really talk to about business things, about anything. Kind of going on because that's been invaluable to me.

Wonderful. So Caitlin, tell our audience what's the best way to follow what you're doing and connect with you?

Sure. Connect with me on LinkedIn right now and I will be launching Ionic's website within the next month and that'll have kind of up to date news on what we're up to.

Wonderful. So thank you everybody. Thank you, Caitlin for joining. This was really appreciate your sharing your story. I have no doubt that it's really going to inspire the people listening to do great things. So really happy that you could join us today.

Great. Thank you so much for having me.

Wonderful. And this is your host, James Nelson. Thank you as always for joining and if you like this episode, please share it with a friend. Please rate it the comments this is what helps others find out about this business. I am doing this show for you to help you gain the insider's edge to real estate investing so you can gain the advantage to outperform the market. And Caitlin, the story will no doubt help you do that. So until next week, this is your host, James Nelson. Thank you as always for joining.

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