Urban Planning with Paula Carethers

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This is the Insider's Edge to Real Estate Investing with James Nelson, the principal and head of Avis & Young's Tri State investment Sales Group. In this program you'll learn game changing strategies to outperform the market. James will teach you how to source, execute and capitalize on the best real estate opportunities in New York and around the world. Now here's your host.

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Welcome to episode number 187 of the Insider's Edge to Real Estate Investing. This is your host, James Nelson. Thank you as always for joining. Very excited to start doing these shows in our new studio here at our offices at 530 Fifth Avenue. If you'd like to see these interviews you can find them on YouTube where we have our YouTube channel. So please make sure and subscribe to that link's in the bio. Okay, for today got a wonderful guest, Paula Carruthers. You're gonna learn all about city development and leading teams in this conversation. Paula is the Director for Real Estate for the Archdiocese of New York and she is responsible for strateg and oversight of properties for its nearly 300 parishes. And what I really love about this episode is she talks about partnering and really supporting the parishes which I think is very important. She saw leadership roles in large scale projects including the master planning for Ford's Motor Company's restoration of Michigan Central Station in Detroit and approvals for redevelopment at historic Domino Sugar property, Williamsburg, Brooklyn while she was at the New York City's edc. So again having both public and private and not for profit experience, which is an incredible combo. You're going to hear about the advantages of networking with alumni and home time connections and how you can help grow and learn in your career. Paula talks about shifting from government to private and not for profit organizations and the importance of understanding culture and tapping into everyone's talents. As always, if you go to james nelson.com that's where you can find show notes and how to connect with Paula. Thank you again and we'll have a brief word from our sponsor.

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Welcome everyone. Thrilled for today's Investor Spotlight to have with us Paleroy Carruthers, who is the director of Real Estate for the Archdiocese of New York. Paula, thank you so much for joining us today.

Thanks for having me, James.

So Paula for audience and we've known each other for a while now, but maybe tell the audience a little bit about your role and what your your typical day to day looks like.

Sure. So I am the director of Real Estate for the Archdiocese of New York, which means that his Eminence Cardinal Dolan entrusts me with sort of helping all of our parishes think about how they can best utilize their properties. So that is everything that the parish owns, it can be a church, a parking lot, a convent. Usually we might have like ball fields. And it ranges essentially from we have three boroughs in New York City, Staten Island, Manhattan and the Bronx and then seven counties going north to about Albany. So there's a huge range, a vast range of properties within that portfolio. And we help the parishes think about what to do with their properties. So you know, usually it's, it's them operating them and obviously maintaining old buildings can be a challenge in itself. But we help make sure that, you know, they're in compliance with different local laws and that the buildings are maintained the best that they can be. And then we think about how they can use those properties the best. So you know, I give an example that we have, you know, robust religious education programs that may use school buildings just for a few hours, a couple days a week. And maybe those, those buildings we would find a lease for where they could have a shared use for the parish but also bring in revenue that helps to maintain them. And then of course, if properties are not are no longer in use, then we look at other opportunities for them.

That's wonderful. And I have to say it's now I've been doing this for 25 years and very early on into my career had the the privilege to represent and work with the archdiocese. And it is a true pleasure to have such an incredible group. And I know we're going to Talk about that a little bit later in your story in incredible team that you have there. But what I can say is that a lot of not for profit work and religious organizations might not have a centralized real estate department that they can really tap into. And it makes a huge difference. And because I think there's certainly a lot of whether you're not for profit religious organization, again, you want really to focus on mission critical and to do the great work that you're doing as opposed to, you know, worrying about the real estate. And so just, you know, having that, that, that centralized resource is a huge benefit to it to allow the archdiocese to do all the incredible work that they do. So. Okay, so let's go back to your story because you started and you went from Michigan State to University of Michigan. I say rivals. I don't know how that exactly that works, but I think you had a background originally. Was it in environmental? It was sciences. And then you went into urban planning. So maybe talk a little bit. I mean, are you interested in that growing up?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a great question. So I, I've now been in New York for, for over 20 years and I sort of say my real interest in New York City and urban development governance all started when I was young and really started when I was like 8 years old. And I, I, my dad encouraged me to write these letters to different people that I. Different cities as well as actually, I think maybe New York was the only city. But I wrote to different institutions and to I think probably some music bands. But I wrote to Mayor Koch and I was really interested in New York City and we have these responses over time. In my third grade year where Mayor Koch wrote me several letters and I wrote him several letters and it sort of sparked this interest in New York City. And I grew up outside of Detroit in the suburbs. And I think thinking about sort of, I always had this love for New York. I don't really know where that started other than my, you know, pen pal with, with Mayor Koch. But when I got sort of through high school and into college, I was really interested in how cities grew. And looking at the city of Detroit, my interest in environmental science was really experience sort of experiencing suburban and exurban growth and trying to understand how you really balance development with nature and in the environment. That was my undergraduate degree at Michigan State. I went and worked for a few years and while I was working, I realized the field, actually the work of environmental science wasn't really maybe what my interest was fully. And I realized that there's this field of urban planning. I'd never really heard of it before. And I said, that's what I want to do. I want to really focus on urban development. So I went back to the University of Michigan and studied urban planning, and I loved it. It was so much fun. Everything we studied and learned, I just found so intriguing. And it sort of circled me back to New York because I took a course in the urban design program at the University of Michigan that focused on the sort of evolution of New York City's growth. And 9, 11 had just happened. And so in 2003, I came to New York and visited with all the Michigan alumni that I could find in New York City until one of them gave me a job at the New York City Economic Development Corporation, which now.

You serve on the board of directors if I'm not. So it's come full circle. So I've got to first of all say the fact that your parents encourage you to write letters at 8 years old. So I have. I have three sons, 19, 16 and 13. I don't even know if they'd know how to write a letter today. I mean, even email seems like a foreign concept. It's really more fortunately texting or Snapchatting. But the fact that you reached out in that gave you inspiration. I mean, first of all, hats off to the Mayor Koch for taking the time or whoever did it was a staffer. But, you know, I think he told me he sent you a photo autographed as well. I mean, what a. What a cool thing. I mean, that's really inspire you at that age and to, you know, be thinking about these things. So we do get a lot of listeners to this show who are in college. Maybe they're thinking about a master's degree, urban planning. What are the. What's the course load like? I mean, and is it really. Is it more theory? Is it practical? Are you doing case studies? Are you, like, going to different cities and seeing how they work? Just talk a little bit about what that degree entails.

Sure. And it's been a while since I've been there, so I'll put that out there first. But, you know, I think there's a lot of different kinds of programs that you can tailor to what, what your interest is. So I went to the University of Michigan, and which I think in the range of programs that I looked at was maybe one that was a little bit more theoretical at the time, really focused on learning the principles of how cities grow and, and all of the different factors around development, economic Development, housing, you know, environmental issues. There was a wide range of factors there, I think, you know. And when I was looking at programs, I looked at also a wide range, some that were a little bit more technical. I found that Michigan's program was really extraordinary in that I went there and really tailored the program to what I wanted. So I was really focused on economic development when I got there. I took a number of courses in the real estate division, which was through the business school. I did an AmeriCorps volunteering internship for a year where I worked both while I was in school and over the summers through AmeriCorps in the city of Detroit. And so it was a bit of sort of learning the fundamentals, reading books like Jane Jacobs book and the Power Broker and all of the other planning books that I'm forgetting right now about different cities, neighborhoods.

The power broker alone could. I remember. And I still have it in two volumes. Not that. No, it's one book, but I literally had the paperback. And this is probably sacrilege, but I cut it in half because it's a thousand plus pages. So to try to travel with it.

Right.

A little unwieldy, but I mean, yes.

I think that beach vacations and it's. It's a heavy one in your beach pass.

Yes. So now maybe talk a little bit about the. Was there. I know the Michigan alumni network is pretty die hard. Not just for the football team, but it is. Did you finding those initial jobs out of school, was that. Is that a network that you. And today their real estate program and with Jeff Blau support as well, has been pretty.

Yeah. I think you will find Michigan people anywhere you go. And I found there's sort of two things that, that I have. One is the University of Michigan connection. And in New York City, there's a lot of New Yorkers who've gone to Michigan. And it's a. You see the, you know, the Michigan emblem almost every day. I see it walking down the street. So that, that was really, I think, helpful and has been. I. I still see people that I know from the planning school. The other thing that I have is my, my background from being from Detroit. And there's also really incredible Detroiters who are, I'd say, all over the world, but a lot of us in New York and all over the country and, you know, for many decades, I think, you know, Detroit unfortunately lost a lot of the sort of intellectual talent. People went to University of Michigan or other universities and then left. But there's a really strong network of that So I found that in. In my career that those two things have been really particularly helpful for me.

So after coming to New York to spend time at the edc, then if I'm not mistaken, you come back to Detroit.

Yeah.

To work at Ford. So talk about kind of having that government experience, going from public to private. How did that scare you? And I know that's kind of been a theme throughout your career. Yeah. You've done a lot of work on, on both sides.

Yeah, I. And, you know, I've. I. Throughout my career, I've actually moved around quite a bit, and I. I've been really lucky to have tremendous opportunities that have come up. And with every transition, I feel like I've been able to grow and learn a lot of new things. I've sort of. Rather than following the traditional path of sort of working up in an organization, I've. I've sort of been able to jump into leadership roles in different places, which also means having to sort of understand how places work. So I found that, you know, going from government to private, and I worked at nonprofit, you know, I think a lot of it has to. The transition I found is, I think the biggest challenge is really understanding culture of every place that you go to and figuring out how you can fit in into the culture. Now I'm at the archdiocese, which is a culture on its own. I found that, I think really listening to the people who are there, figuring out the team of how people work together and sort of what the holes are and how you can fill those holes has really been something that I've done everywhere I've gone, whether it's in government or outside of the government. And you can't always. It doesn't mean like hiring new people or moving people around. It means finding within every individual what their key sort of real talents are and how you can sort of tap into the best of. Of every person, it made very different for, you know, everyone. So I found as I've gone into every role, I've sort of, you know, approached it the same way. Tried to think about, like, what are the. What are the levers for success both within my team and also within whoever's, you know, I'm. I'm working for. Like, we all have bosses, right? So what are the levels of success that they are looking for that I can help them with? Right. So looking up and then looking down, how to really activate people to get sort of more creative thinking around some problems. So oftentimes I found myself sort of stepping into roles where it's Sort of overseeing at a broad level, a project. And I have all these folks under me who are really the specialists. And so my job has been to just really tap into that. Right. I've taken on all these roles where I'm not the specialist and so I, you know, had to come in and find the best way to progress. So I haven't found it challenging honestly to jump around or to go between government and private. I think I've approached it the same way.

And I definitely want to get to how you really rely on your team. Right. Which is giving them decision making capabilities, deferring to their expertise as we talk about your, your current role and team. But I do want to just quickly go back and ask because I know this might be a question for some of our listeners who are mid career and I realize I was probably the exception right out of college working for a firm for 17 years until we sold the company and effectively stayed on with them for another three years. So the first 20 years of my career with the same incredible company, incredible people who I still stay in touch with pretty much a weekly basis. But sometimes, I mean, the fear might be, well, if someone sees my resume and they see that I've two years here, two years there and year three here, that, you know, is this someone who's going to really commit to the organization? Because there's a certain amount of onboarding that takes place when you bring someone new onto the team where they're taking the time to get you up to speed and you need to figure out kind of the lay of the land before you can add value. So what would you say to the listener about, you know, is there any concern there if, you know, a future employer might look at that and say that maybe this is not someone who would commit for the long term?

Yeah, I've certainly had those sort of concerns or insecurities about how, you know, people would think about it because I have moved around quite a bit, you know, every few years I think, you know, for me, as soon as I, first of all, most of my jobs I've taken been given the opportunity from somebody I've worked with. And so it's, it's been an opportunity that's come out of the work that I've done. And so I think that in itself sort of is part of, people have worked with me and they've sort of said, you know, if you're thinking about, you know, something else, we'd love to have you join our team or we have this need and you'd be Perfect for this need. So for the most part, that's how it's. It's been for me. And I found, you know, when people don't know who I am and I talk about my career and I show sort of the path that I've taken and the thoughtfulness and why I've taken different roles, I think it really, you know, I think it shows for me. I think it shows that I've sort of thought about how I've wanted to try to do different things in my career because I am in some ways a generalist. I've always taken a role that sort of sparks a new creativity, so. Or fills sort of a void of something that I've wanted to learn a little bit better. So when I was my first job at EDC and I was working on Brooklyn Bridge park and we were trying to figure out the financial mechanism for maintaining the park based on real estate, which at the time was still a question whether there would be any real estate, you know, residential or commercial, built on, on the Pro, on the. And I had to rely on other people to run the numbers for me and then interpret those numbers. And at some point that got a little frustrating for me. So when I thought about leaving, I went to work on a development project on the Domino Sugar project and really was hired in to sort of get through the entitlements process. They thought, you know, I remember we said it'd be about a year and then we'll move into development. It actually took four years, I think, to get through the entitlements process. So it was longer than I thought. But my plan going in there was I really wanted to learn sort of underwriting and understand the development process because that was something that I was frustrated that I didn't know well enough. And I found that every time I've switched careers or switched into a new role, it's in part really a great opportunity that's come my way, but also something new that I haven't done before.

And I think the key also is that it seems like you're pretty open with your employer and plans and many times they were helpful maybe in your next transition. And, you know, this is probably only happened on our team maybe a handful of times or less, where it's usually someone who's, you know, two years in and they take a vacation and then they come back and say, I'm giving you two weeks notice. Right? My two weeks notice.

Right.

And, you know, I, I try to be really nice and I, I. Because I always want to be Helpful. But, you know, and this was really what I learned from Paul Massey as well. It's when you're an inflection point in your career and you're thinking about doing something new, you know, going to your current employer, your manager, and to say, look, I'm thinking about doing something new and you know, what do you think about this? And I think, I hate to say, like, this generation, but, you know, the fear is, did this person think that if they walked in and said, hey, James, I think I'm going to the private equity side that I'm going to just turn right around and fire them on the spot? You know, whereas, you know, I need to get my vacation in and then I need to get, you know, whereas, like, look, if you just told me two weeks ago, we could have started a search for your replacement and by the way, I would have helped be a reference for you and help make introduction. So again, I don't want to make it about me and certainly not sour grapes, but I think the point is that, you know, you did this in the right way and I would imagine all the people that you've worked with along your career, you know, have been helpful throughout and you continue to build on this experience. So I want to, so I want to talk more if you can. I know there's, there's a lot of confidentiality that, you know, surrounds what, what, you know, Ford is doing in Detroit. But this, this innovation center at Michigan Central, just, just reading their press release, I mean, it seems, what, 60 acres that, I mean, talk about an opportunity to master plan and you know, blank slate. So to whatever extent you could say what you work on there, if not, we could talk more about Domino Sugar, that that was an advancing project too. But just be curious kind of what that was like to work on.

It's great. My, actually my experience at Domino really sort of helped prime me for working at Michigan Central. So Ford, yeah, Ford has done this incredible, really incredible job in Detroit. They purchased the old Michigan Central station, which is an old McKim meeting white building that was built, you know, in the early 20th century and never really reached its full potential because the commercial tower above the train station was never fully utilized before sort of train traffic started declining, especially in Detroit. And, and you know, the, the whole shift from trains to cars, passenger train particularly, happened. So that building for most of my upgrade upbringing was vacant. And I spent a lot of time like many other sort of a lot of suburban kids would in the 90s go down and take pictures in that building because it was this massive, big empty building. When I was an AmeriCorps volunteer in graduate school, I. In Mexican Town, which is in southwest Detroit, right around the train station. So for me, going back was, was really a really exciting opportunity. And Ford is, I, I think they're, they're planning on opening soon. They have invested a tremendous amount of resources into creating, I think, something that's going to be really unique for Detroit, which is much broader than, than, you know, just Ford offices, but really sort of spurring the innovation that Detroit has really sort of built on. Right. Sort of taking a cue from, from their early 20th century development and growth. So when I went there, I worked on a lot of sort of the repositioning of the building and thinking about how the train station fits within, within that community and looking at the landscaping and the planning, bringing in a great firm that I worked with here in New York, Pow to help with that. So it's, it's really exciting. I'm so excited to see how it opens up and sort of all of the work that we did comes to fruition. I think, you know, I've, like I said, I've worked on a lot of different projects. You know, the couple that I mentioned, Domino and Brooklyn Bridge Park, I worked on, you know, the post 911 rebuilding in Lower Manhattan and rezoning of 125th Street. All these projects that are sort of decades in the making. So it's really exciting even, you know, to see them sort of happen and remember like the little, you know, the, the fingerprint that, that so many people have had to make.

I think that definitely has to be my favorite part about the, the job. Just having done this for a while and I'm just sitting here trying to broker it and bring buyer and seller together. Although one of my, my favorite assignments are when there's an assemblage and you have to put pieces together and the imagination and how, you know, you work with, you know, city zoning and bonus programs and transfers. It's really fascinating. And then to see the finished project is really amazing. So the fact that we work with physical assets. So I now love to talk about your work now and really building a team. Clearly there was a team, a very well established team before you got there. So maybe talk about kind of when you, you first came in as, as, as, as director of the group and so that yes, there, there is this, you know, a lot of work that goes into understanding how you can be most helpful to the parachutes and kind of all those relationships. But how did you Find yourself assessing the current strengths of the team and then how you needed to add and so maybe talk a little bit about that process.

Yeah, and you've worked with our team so much. You know them well. I have a, I have a great team. You know, coming into the role, the one thing that I wanted to make sure was that we really had the ability to, to do what we needed to do, both sort of resources and, and, and the staff. And I replaced someone who had been in the role for over 30 years. And so he has sort of an encyclopedic knowledge of, of all, of all of our parishes and all of the people and everything that has been considered over the years. So for me, stepping in, the biggest challenge was trying to get my head around this massive, massive portfolio. And we had a few folks on the team who are really fantastic. So I think the great thing is, is that my team is a really strong real estate professionals. They are all sort of come with, with strong background. We had one person on my team, Ed, who is. Been with us a really long time and just has a way of speaking with, you know, our pastors, our parishioners, you know, concerned residents over buildings and just sort of smoothing and calming everyone's nerves. He's, he is and is incredibly thoughtful about how he approaches almost everything we do. And so he is a huge asset on the team and has been incredibly helpful to me because brings in that sort of knowledge of like how we've done things or being able to remember things. I have somebody else, Angelo, who comes from a really strong background working at the New York Times and is probably one of the most detailed people I've ever worked with, which is a complete opposite of me. And so it was incredibly valuable to me because when I put him on a job, I know that he is looking at every little detail that I'm not. And I think, you know, we can sort of balance each other out because I can sort of see everything that he's doing and compare it to other things. So when I got there, I sort of inherited the two of them. And Courtney was on my team. It was, Courtney is in this younger generation, incredibly hardworking. And you know, I was saying to her recently, Court 8 comes in somewhere, you know, around 8 every morning, doesn't leave till 5:30 or 6. And it's just always there and ready to help. And I've found that that's a really unusual thing, particularly for somebody just a few years out of college. It's really meaningful to me and helpful to me and so, like, there's, you know, we're building her skill set in real estate because she didn't come with that to the role, but she comes with sort of the. The personality and the interest and the, you know, the commitment that we need. So that was a team that I sort of inherited, and then I've been able to expand it. So bringing Jen Dixon on board has been just tremendous. Jen and I worked together maybe 15 years ago on Domino. She was a lawyer working in land use law. And I would say in our meetings, I sort of want to hear what Jennifer had to say. There was the lead. You know, we had a lot of lawyers on the project, and they were great. But Jennifer really knew her stuff was zoning. And so when I started looking for people, I called Jennifer and I sort of said to her, I'd love to find somebody like you. And, you know, and then we just started talking and she came over and she has. It's a totally different, you know, role. She has been excellent and I think just sort of helping to bring an expertise that we hadn't had, but that we really, really need. I mean, for us to do our jobs well, we need to really know, you know, we want to get the most value out of our property and make sure that our parishes who've, you know, maintained these properties for decades and decades, get the most value out of them so that they can continue on. And that we're making sure that we maintain that legacy of our parishioners. And so, you know, it. We need to be very smart about understanding what's happening in the city, making sure that we're very tapped in to, you know, policies or, you know, what is city planning, thinking about different neighborhoods. We're constantly tracking, you know, politics and bills and anything that sort of influences us. And so she's been. She's been tremendously helpful in that arena. And then I have two more people that I've brought in, one woman who has years of experience working with large retail as a retail broker, and she's just doing an incredible job. I think every single day she's out somewhere in the parish, visiting a property, in a school or. And just comes in with a ton of enthusiasm. So, anyways, it's a lot of people. I guess my. You know, I sum it up by just saying every single person on my team is different. And I think it is something that I think sort of goes back to when we talk about diversity and inclusion. I always think about, you know, that means so many different things for me. It really is making sure. That you have diverse voices and that you are encouraging people who don't always have the space for those voices, whether they're, you know, underrepresented people, whether it's young people new to the career who just don't necessarily have the space, sometimes when they're surrounded by, you know, more senior people to sort of say what they think and bring their voice out. So that, to me is really important. I think I have a great team that I've built there. They make me look good. So.

No, no doubt. And that certainly was going to be my next question, because I know how important that has been to build that balanced team with different perspectives. And if you even think of your geographic footprint and making sure that you have people on the team, they're representative of the communities you serve. And I know that you've really gone a long way to show leadership there. Also, no doubt that you have the insider's edge in that. You know, we talk a lot about, in the book about specialization. This is a business that requires specialization. So the fact that Jen, you know, one of the top land use attorneys or Meredith, and what she's done on the leasing front and having that really specific knowledge.

Yeah.

Is, is really how you unlock value. We talk about how important. And you're, you're, you're a not for profit, clearly, but you need to think of real estate, I would imagine, as a for profit because you have a fiduciary. If you do get a piece of real estate back and you're looking to dispose, I'm sure the first thing that you're looking at is what's the highest and best use. And that's, you know, when we've worked on assignments with you all. And it might be taking an old convent and converting it to an ultra high end, you know, single family with a gallery in soho. That was a real transaction that we did. So again, thinking about different ways and all the creativity with air rights. And again, I know a lot of this is confidential. I know, but on one, one case, there was some air rights that might have been transferred around Midtown as well. So, I mean, these are really complicated transactions. Right. So you, you want to have that expertise.

We absolutely owe it to our parishes to have the expertise. I think that's. You started off by saying that, oh, you know, the archdiocese basically is providing some of this sort of expertise and support for all of these parishes. I do think it, you know, we are in the most sophisticated real estate market in the country. And so, and we own, you know, property that People that we, we built through donated funds and that people have maintained, put a lot of money into over the years. And so when we get to the point in time when the property is no longer needed by the parish to, to maintain their mission, it's important for us to, to get the most value out of that. And you know, and that can be, you know, it's not always just the highest value. We do, we have a ton of properties where we have leases with nonprofit groups with services. We build affordable housing through New York Catholic Homes and we have quite a few sort of supportive housing properties either through Catholic charities or independent third party groups that we lease to. So there's quite a range of what we do with our buildings. It's everything from, you know, leasing it out to a nonprofit shelter, we have a lot of those to selling it for market rate housing. And, and there's, so there's, there's a quite a range in there. And it's important that, that my team really, we take it very seriously. Our responsibility.

Well, look, I, I, I want to pay you a huge compliment because I've certainly learned a lot from your leadership style and what really, you know, we talked about this before. You know, the word that came out was your, your pride, right? For your, your team. And it really, you, you can sense it, you can feel it. And I think for some people, they might have an idea of leadership is, you know, I, I'm just going to delegate and you know, let's get the team working as hard as possible. And look, hard work is, is, is part of it. Let's not, you know, throw that out the, the window. But you know, having that reliance on your team is essential because if, if the team feels like you're just questioning, you know, their decisions, right. The fact that you rely on your, your team, I mean that, that is really, you're firing on all cylinders. And I think, and along with that, yes, there's gonna be mistakes. I'm sure there's been things that have happened along the way where maybe you would have done something differently. Right. But then, so I, I don't know if you could, could, could share on that, that thought process, but I would imagine, you know, giving the team the freedom to make decisions and the confidence ultimately in the long term is going to serve everyone a lot better.

I think it's a hard thing, you know, as you grow to, to, it's to not micromanage on, on projects, on transactions. I often say that people tend to want to get engaged in things that they know well and know how to do well. And then we stay away from things that are, that are a little bit more difficult, I think, just generally. Right. And so I, I try to keep that in mind. I see myself doing that, sort of slipping into things that I enjoy and like doing. And I think it's, it's. It's important to obviously, you know, think about this broader and to, to tap people in what's best for them. I mean, we, you know, in my work currently, like you said, we. We represent our parishes in, you know, in a number of different ways. We have very sophisticated air rights transactions that we're doing. And we. It is a wide range. There are, you know, some, some development that we're doing and it's a lot of different skill sets. And we are lucky. We rely on, you know, I think in some ways we're lucky because we have so much, we do so, so much work, sort of broad range that, you know, we get to work with people like you and others who, on a repeat basis where we were able to really build those relationships and ties into the community of great, you know, you know, the best, the best zoning consultants working with us and helping us figure things out. That has been a real gift. I don't think a lot of nonprofits get that. I think, you know, some of smaller churches don't have that ability to bring on real experts to help them. And I worked in affordable housing before I came here. I worked for the city's Housing Development Corporation and we did quite a few. I'm trying to remember the percentage, but I'd say at least a third, if not half of our projects when I was there was land that was partnering with religious institutions where either they were building next to the church or building on the land that the church owned and giving back a portion to the church. You know, the community facility. You know, nowadays when development is so tight and so frankly, land is, is, is. Is hard, is scarce. Finding properties like these religious institutions that are asset rich but really cash poor and finding ways, you know, to work with them, I think, you know, from a development standpoint is a real challenge. And some people have figured it out. I think, you know, for religious groups it can be hard because there's a lot of, a lot of interest coming. We get a lot of, you know, a lot of people try to circumvent. Luckily, I think, you know, all of our parishes, our pastors know, when they get interest, they pass it on to us. You know, almost everything in the archdiocese happens through my office, which is Just great. My predecessor really set that rule in place and I was able to step into that. But other, other places don't necessarily have that benefit.

You know Paula, I'm really glad that you mention that opportunity, you know, for our listing listeners, many investors, developers, you know, the idea of partnering with not for profits religious organizations. I mean here in New York, oftentimes there's a bonus. As you know, if you're going to build a new building, the residential might only go to four times the lot area, but the city will give you an extra to far for community facilities. So if you can go to one of those, those churches and say look, we can build you a new building. Right. And you can monetize your air rights right now with doing right, you're getting no value from and in turn we can deliver you a new turnkey church. And we've done that transaction several times now.

Right.

And it's really a win win. So I, I'm really glad that you, you mentioned that. And now just as we start to wrap up, I wanted to talk about, and I think we were discussing before about your work with the city and with Dan Doctor Off.

Yeah.

And I'd love if you could kind of share with the audience about your experience there. But you know, I think that the benefit of not only the way that you are working with your team and your reliance on them allows you to have that big picture thinking. Right. And to push the bounds and disclaimer to the audience. I'm, I'm right now reading 10x is easier than 2x which is really kind of mind blowing. But that whole idea that if you can rely on the team to kind of a lot of that block and tackling and decision making so you can kind of think on that big picture opportunity. Maybe tell us a little bit about your work with Dan Doctor Off.

Yeah, I mean Dan is just really such a incredible human. I was incredibly lucky. My first role here in New York City was at the New York City Economic Development Corporation. And right after 9 11. So I was working. You know, Dan was the deputy mayor under Bloomberg. And you know, he just exemplified sort of the type of leadership that I think had never experienced before in many ways just his creativity and his sort of. Dan was constantly sort of thinking big and pushing the envelope to think about things in ways that others weren't. To sort of push yourself to explore what may seem impossible but was really sort of. There were so many things that I remember Dan saying that. I was like, huh, that makes, how do you do that? That doesn't make any sense. And then you sort of sit and think about it and we would figure out how to, maybe not me, but others, we would, you know, people would figure out ways to sort of get to that direction. And, you know, in my job since then, I've, I've, I feel so lucky to have been in that sort of early Bloomberg administration and the people that sort of embodied that sort of thinking that Dan had, but also really believed and cared about New York City. And being part of that team for me was, was really sort of transformational. I mean, I, you know, I started off with this love of this, of New York and then I came here and got to work in the city and work in all five boroughs. And it was, it was really, I would say, incredibly influential to me. But it also has influenced every decision I've made. And I found myself going into new roles and sort of, you know, thinking about the people that I'm working for and do they hit that sort of inspirational level, you know, and, you know, now working at the archdiocese and working for Cardinal Dolan, I sort of, you know, feel that same way. He is a really extraordinary person and leader for the Catholic Church. And so it is something that I've sort of wanted to follow. But I think it's also my sort of curiosity and interest and sort of trying to look at things in different ways is all stemmed from, from those, those early days and what I learned being on being in that administration.

Apollo. This has really been wonderful and so appreciate your coming in and sharing your experience and I, I know our listeners are going to get a tremendous amount of value. So thank you again for having this conversation.

Thanks, James. I appreciate it very much.

Wonderful. And thank you all for joining as always. And you know what to do now if you, if you didn't enjoy this episode, I don't know, you know, what, what, what else we can possibly do here. But in all seriousness, please share the episode. If you like it, that's. It's a great way to help others. That's what, that's what we're here to do. And so until next week, this is your host, James Nelson. Thanks again.

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