Episode 120: How to Build Smart Early-Stage Biotech Partnerships That Actually Work

On this episode, Renee Williams tells us how we can make fractional a little more transactional. You're listening to BIO from the Bayou, empowering biotech leaders with the tools, assets, and expertise to improve healthcare outcomes.

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Serving the entire Gulf South, but recorded in the heart of New Orleans. Welcome back to BIO from the Bayou. I'm your host, Dr. Elaine Hamm, the executive in residence at Tulane School of Medicine. And with me, I have Dr. Renee Williams. She's been here before, but we're in the same room together.

You still invited me back. Thank you.

Yes, yes. Back by popular demand. And we are in the same room together, and I know we're going to have a lot of fun. So tell us, what have you been up to since the last time we, quote, saw you?

Oh gosh, I don't even know how long ago it is we've talked, but I think I was still consulting then. And so I am consulting now, but I have recently come on as a fractional business officer. Fractional chief business officer. There we go. For Signifyd. And so that's been taking up a lot of my time, but in a good way. I enjoy doing work with them.

Yeah. What's it like being a fractional CBO?

It's great. You know, I am, I have commitment issues. I'm non-committal. And so I have enjoyed for the last 2 years being able to work with a little science here and a little science there and just, you know, sort of fill things out. But I really enjoy working not only with the people at SignifyBio, but I really like the technology. And so I enjoy talking about it and doing what CBOs do for that thing. I like to think about it, all of the above.

You strike me as someone who would be very picky about what she would want to work on.

Yes, 100%.

Tell me what would get you excited about working with a company.

100%. So yeah, my whole fractional CBOing, it has—

CBOing? Yeah, we need to make it some kind of word.

We're going to make it a word. My CBOing, it's on scales, right? So sometimes people just want introductions, or they just want me to look at their deck, or they just want things behind the scene. No problem. I'm here for everybody. Then sometimes people would like me to be forward-facing for them. And in that regard, then I'm a little bit pickier about what I'm being forward-facing for, because I need to have conviction in it.

Yeah, you have to be able to sell it.

Yes. And ultimately, you are leveraging my contacts. When I go to one of my contacts, I want them to know, and they need to know that I'm going to bring them something that at least passes the sniff test.

The Renee sniff test.

Yeah, just in general. Otherwise, because it's ultimately, you're a reflection of me. Right? And so not necessarily every company am I willing to say, sure, let me just introduce you to this high-value target. Because if I start bringing them a bunch of crap, they're gonna stop taking my calls. And then now I'm no longer useful as a—

Yeah.

As a fractional CBO. But Signifyd was none of that, right? So I first wanted a team that had been here before, right? Had been on startups, good, bad, or otherwise, failed or unfailed, but, you know, failed or successful. But you learn a lot of things both ways. And so in this case, the CEO, This is the second, third company. It's been very successful. The other thing I look for in CEOs are I generally think that there's 2 kinds of CEOs. There's the I'm here because I want to be in charge of things, like I want to own this thing, I want to run this thing. And then there's CEOs who are interested in making money. I like the— I like the latter because the latter is open. They are flexible, right?

They can make a point. Yeah, they can. They want to make money with that.

They can kind of move with the environment. You make a suggestion. Maybe they like it, maybe they don't, but it ends up being a conversation about why. And in this case, we're really great about the entire lead team participating in things. If you have something to say, you have something to say. On the other side of the fence, when you lead for, we'll say, ego, then you're now in this non-rational space.

Right.

It might be very clear, like, hey, we need to pivot because X, Y, and Z just happened. I don't know, let's say whatever, X, Y, and Z just happened. We need to pivot a little bit to tell a better story. And they'll be like, no, this is my company. I founded the thing. That's not worth working for. But that does not signify at all the lead team. They've all been here before. Everyone is interested in making a drug, getting it to humans, and making money while you do it along the way, which means that we have a lot of conversations. Sometimes someone will say something and be like, no. Right? You could say no. And then you could talk about why it's no, or you can this and that. So I very, very much appreciate being with a team that is all well-seasoned. They're ex-Pfizer, ex-BridgeBio, ex-I've had this many startups, ex-Lilly. Whatever the case is, everyone has made a drug. Everyone has, whatever their role is, they have done their role for big companies, for small companies. They have done it for double digits worth of years. The kicker is they're all pleasant. You got all of that plus they're pleasant? They're all pleasant. The foundational technology, it's great. It came out of Dan Siegert's lab along with Lukasz Barbiak out of UT Southwestern. Great. I mean, arguably top 3 profs all about LNPs.

Yeah.

Right. And so great. I get to come out of somewhere. I get to work with technology that's well— the person, you know, well regarded. It is well regarded. People know his name. Yeah. I really couldn't ask for a better combination of things. And it's in, you know, I like nucleic acids. It's mRNA technology with delivery.

It's your sweet spot.

Yes, it's in the pocket. So great. And, you know, not to my own horn, there were a lot of other options before I met Signify, but You know, those were like, okay, cool, maybe I'll work with you a little bit on the side or this or that. And, you know, maybe you get a term sheet or something along the way. And but this is the first company that I was like, yes, yes, I would like to be aligned with this company. It's fantastic.

I wanted to know because I want to know what it takes to get the rose from you of like, yes, I want you. I will, I will, I will date you here.

So it definitely started with the team. Yeah, right. Do I want to be aligned?

You have to work with these people.

Yeah, I'll be honest. So before I ran into them, there was another mRNA company.

Yeah.

You know, extremely well-funded. Think of all the big-name VCs. Everybody was there. People were knocking down the doors. They want it. They want it more. Got a term sheet to be with that company. And I just—

Something.

I couldn't say no, but I kept asking for insane things, which was like saying no.

Oh, no.

Like, every time I redlined the—

You're like, why am I hesitant?

Every time I redlined the term sheet, I would ask for something that was just like, maybe the salary ask was insane. Maybe this was insane. Maybe this was insane. And I kept telling myself, you know, If they come back and they say yes to this, yes to this, okay, then I'm going to do it. But it wasn't the same as like Signify could have been like, well, we can only pay you a dollar today. And I feel like I might've said, okay, okay, with the promise of when we get to X, Y, and Z. But you know what? You already had money. I know you had money 'cause it was part of me wanting to sign up. You just raised $15 million on a platform company, by the way. Kudos to you. So no, you have to pay me more than a dollar. But yeah, yeah. Oh, there was things in the background that were making me drag my feet other places. You didn't want to work for that company. Whereas here I was like, ooh, Super happy to jump all in.

Let's go. Yeah. That's interesting. Well, I like what you said about the CEO who wants to make money. That's, I hadn't thought about that before. Do you see the other side of that coin being where they, they might not have the focus, where they're chasing money a little bit more?

Yeah.

And like, oh, that market opened up, or they did a deal on this.

Yeah.

And you know, I should probably pull it back a little bit, not just say to make money, but to transact.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

That's a tough—

So if you say it the other way, like the goal is to transact, whether that is to IPO, whether that is to M&A, Yeah. And inherently those things have money connected to them. But if your goal is to transact, then the path in which you get there, right, you're a little bit more open. Now, especially as a platform company, you could absolutely be all over the place.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

And maybe a first-time CEO would, but he is not a first-time CEO or a second-time CEO, right? He's a third-time CEO that knows you have to be focused.

Absolutely.

And so we talk about focus all of the time. We have our lead asset in sort of the cardiorenal metabolic space, And as we talk about what asset number 2 is, this is literally what we're going back and forth on. It's like, well, how about, how about this? Well, then that changes our story. Now we're not really a cardio renal whatever, we're cardio renal plus this. So no, not clear, not focused, not this. And yeah, those are the kind of conversations that we have. They can be frustrating, but it's also great because at the end of the day, you need to be a— especially as a platform company, especially. you need to be focused. This idea of hub and spoke, like, oh, we could do all these things, so we'll be the hub and then people are going to partner.

This market, this market, this market, you get a market.

Let's be real, that idea and business model has not panned out.

Really panned out.

No, there's not really a company that you can point to that very successfully was like, I was the hub and everyone part— maybe early on before when platforms were first set up.

I was like, yeah, platform became sort of—

Right, because there was this idea like, well, what, what if platforms, what if this could happen? Sure. But even then, the reason why we don't do them now, yeah, is because those ones didn't deliver on the promise. And so while, yes, this is what you could be, I think it's a death trap.

Yeah.

And it's the fastest way to tanking your company instead of us saying, okay, we know there's a ton of things we could be, but where can we differentiate? How can we be different than other linear mRNA, or how can we be different than circular, than self-amp? Or in our case, how can we outcompete recombinant proteins? And so while technically we could Send things. So just a little background, like, we are an mRNA company and we leverage signal peptides. Signal peptides are essentially like little zip codes.

Ah, to signify.

They're essentially like little zip codes that tell the cell which organelle to send the mRNA before it's translated, because sometimes you need protein in the mitochondria, sometimes you need it in the nucleus, sometimes you need the cell surface, wherever you want it to be. So we've kind of hacked that. We've put them in, inserted them in right into the primary sequence. So we can send it where we want to go.

Super cool.

So similar to what I just talked about on the panel, we could be an in vivo CAR-T company if we wanted to. Our technology works, and now is good timing, but we'd be starting from zero. By the time we get to having an asset, we might have missed the in vivo CAR-T bus, right? Because right now it's FOMO. Everyone's like, in vivo CAR-T, where can I buy one? Where can I buy one?

Where can I buy one?

Right? So while we can do it, if somebody else wants to use our platform to do it, great. But I don't think that makes sense for us because we are building our own.

Yeah.

We're using our platforms to build a pipeline, which is really what every platform company should do. Not, I have this platform that my goal is to just keep partnering and partnering and partnering, and we just partner and this is how we live.

Yeah.

I think that is a silly business model for today. And so for us, we decided that one thing that we can do really well that other modalities can't is that we can excrete protein extracellularly. So we can say, hey, send this thing right through the rough ER out into circulation. And so now it says, hey, well, technically that's why people use recombinant proteins or recombinant whatever. And so when we look at it, we say, okay, we did a POC with Imbrel. Imbrel on market, 7 days, and then it's gone. So some people are injecting themselves like once, maybe twice a week for life. A week, yeah.

Yeah.

So now we make it, we call it in situ therapeutics, right? So we make it in situ.

Yeah.

With one dose, we have 29 days of protein expression.

Oh my gosh.

So can you imagine if you're the person that's—

That's having to do that every—

That's having to shoot yourself twice a week, and you're like, wait a minute, maybe I can do once or twice a month?

Yeah.

And so when we look around, okay, this is it. Even though we can do a lot of things, why would we not win in this space? Because other linear mRNA can't do it, circular can't do it, self-amp can't do it. Yes, that they can express protein for long periods of time, But they can't necessarily shuttle that well. And so I think that that's how platform companies have to think. You can do a lot of stuff, but what is the one thing that you can do that other people can't and build your thing around that? That is what you're going to build capital on. That is what your focus is going to be.

Yep.

And then if pharma or other people want to come and say, hey, we think your platform is interesting, we'd like to use it for this thing that's out of scope for you, well then kudos to you, because now you just have non-dilutive capital. But you can't build your company on the hope, on the hope of non-dilutive capital because you do not control not near a thing.

Yeah.

You don't know when it's gonna happen.

It depends on someone else.

You can't make it happen. And so if your entire business model is based on something that you don't control, you don't have a business. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, and it's hard because you get feedback when you're pitching to partners and you're, you, oh, have you tried it? Have you looked at this? And have you looked at this?

Yes, of course.

And you're getting that data. I try to keep, I love it. I love a priority grid where it's just like, okay, cool, super hot, also cheap to get to. Or maybe it's time to get to like trying to find the things that people are saying we should go into. And trying to find like, is that reasonable for us to do? And does that fit our value proposition? Because, I mean, you get so much feedback from people. People love to give feedback, but it doesn't mean that's something that you should go follow. And it's hard.

Yeah, 100%. I mean, I was that person on the other side of the table. I look at somebody's technology, they show me the thing that they're doing. I would ask questions about everything else.

Yeah, yeah, right. You're like, but have you looked at this? And this? No.

If that wasn't the thing that I wanted, but I could see the application, Have you done this, this, this, this, and this? It is your job as CEO to stay focused. It is my job to find technology to enable the thing that I want it to enable.

Absolutely.

Now, on the other side of the table, if someone's asking me those questions, great. Yes, it can do all of those things, and we're happy for you to partner that thing. But as a small company, we are going to stay hyper-focused. This is where our funding, this is what we've allocated it to do. Now, something that we do have in the background, which I think that All spinouts should have, is we had a sponsored research agreement straight away with the founding institution. So that being University of Texas Southwestern. And so we do basic research there, which is what you need to do because pharma doesn't partner for basic research.

But you get the chance to build that up.

Exactly. You can answer questions in the background. Now, that might pivot From time to time. So maybe someone comes in and says, hey, can you do this thing? We have a conversation internally. I'll be like, well, technically it's just one experiment to do that thing.

That thing. So is it okay?

Maybe we're not going to do it in the lab, but we have a partnership with this person and this person. Great. Maybe we'll put that in the SRA somewhere because we have built-in flexibility. Hopefully our SRA has some flexibility in it to throw a little this, throw a little that. And then depending on what that looks like, we might say here. Here's an in vitro assay, or here's a very small mouse study. Not doing any more past that, because it pulls our focus and it pulls our—

Yeah, but it should, but it answers that question that people ask, have you looked at this? Yes, we did a small study, and it was— it didn't take too much of our capital, didn't take too much of our time. I mean, we got pulled into the menopause world where we're looking at that.

Yeah.

And there's lots of great studies that show— yes, you and I are like, important, let's get that solved soon. Tick tock. But we didn't have the data for it, but it did fit the story and our hypothesis. So I reached out, actually it was a Tulane professor that developed an incredible menopause model. I said, hey, you want to do a grant? It won't take us much time. It's a short animal model. This would be easy. This is bite-sized, and it could build a good dataset. However, we're still going out and raising funds for our MS, and we're still focused on our MS company. But we met with another group that's like, hey, have you looked at spinal cord? We have. It's going to take way more money and way more time to solve that hypothesis. So you kind of have to balance it.

Yeah, it's hard to say no, but you have to. You have to say, I get it. You're like, we need traction. We want this.

Spinal cord injury. My God, I want to help people walk again. But that just wasn't— it was going to be too much time, too much money.

If someone really wants to get it done, they will pony up to get it done. Now, maybe it's not a large strategic collaboration because there's no data there. Maybe it's a small POC. And I know from a biotech point of view, don't really like to do MTAs, material transfer agreements. There's really no money involved. Maybe a POC. The way I used to look at it was, okay, here's something I think it enables X, Y, and Z. I'm willing to pay you pass-through costs. So what's it going to cost you? Because I know I'm asking you to make 100 sequences of something, and that is not a nominal fee for a large company. Great. This is going to be $15,000. I will pay you $15,000. I'm only paying for the material. Show me the invoice. Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

So our new line, that's our singer.

Show me the invoice. I will pay just for the materials for you to go try this thing. And in that way, because especially on the other side of the fence, I'm not trying to bankrupt you. I want you to do a good job.

No, no.

And I think that maybe this is something that is different, that even though it's not what you're thinking about, I can apply it in the way that I need to apply it. And the thing that I'm going to put together, like the MTA or the POC, I'm going to be sure, at least when I was on the other side of the table, that it has The bare minimums that we need to say yes. And I think that as a biotech, that is what you need to make sure you do before you say yes or no. And don't just assume that the person across the table knows what goes in because they don't. If you're not working with the technical team that would be executing the thing, if they're not helping you put together the research plan, then you're sniffing up the wrong—

Yeah.

The wrong— no, because you're going to end up doing work That when it finally does go to the technical team—

Wait a minute.

What is this?

What is this?

This doesn't have the right experiments. This doesn't this. This doesn't that. And I think in those situations—

The bridge to nowhere.

Then it's worth your time if someone's going to at least cover your cost that you feel like, okay, it's being built. You know what your critical success factors are and how you get from where you are there to a yes. And now does that mean yes is tomorrow? No, you still got to go through the whole—

You still got to go do the science.

You still got to go through the diligence. You still have to go through All the stuff that happens internally, but it gives you a starting point, whereas your starting point before was zero.

Well, and that's a different budget line item than the BD group.

That's so important. I don't think people understand money is money, but it comes from different buckets. It's accounted differently, which means you can spend it differently.

Absolutely.

So when I was on the other side of the table, I could spend, you know, easily $100,000 and below without getting anybody else's buy-in.

Yeah, yeah.

So I could do an MTA, I could do a POC, I'd just This is what I want to do. But I was very good about involving the technical team that if it worked out, they would want to move it forward because I wanted the assays to be done in the way that they like seeing them. I wanted it to be set up such that when you are successful, someone's going to want to partner. Because at the end of the day, my job description was to do deals. I want to enable you to enable me to sell this story up the chain so I can get a deal done. It does not behoove me to let you go over here and flounder and waste your time. Waste the time. And waste your time.

I mean, we just— we had a situation where we worked with a large pharma company. We did a small study. They were gonna pay for it. And we— there was several balls that dropped that made this— the science didn't happen, honestly. I mean, we looked at the way that the study was designed that we really didn't have a say in. The big company did.

Yeah.

And I was like, that's not how we wanted to do the study. We said it in our material. We said it in our contracts that it was gonna be done XYZ, and the scientists kind of went off and did their own thing. And it's just— it was a waste of money, waste of time.

Yeah.

And now they're never gonna do a deal with us.

Yeah, no, no, no, it should definitely be collaborative is how it's set up. But this is why I go back to say, and again, you wish that everyone would bring in the people that you need, but they don't.

They don't, no.

There's a fair number of sort of like the S&E in whatever space that they might design it themselves, or they might have one or two people with them, but they're not the people who would ultimately execute. And so if you're going to put together a POC or MTA, these are the kind of questions you should ask. You say like, hey, Who else? Who else? Who, like, who is this person towards the execution? Is this a person doing it? Is this the decision maker? Or after we put this together, are you gonna bring in a whole new set of people who are gonna look at it and be like, eh?

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah. And if you're gonna have a CRO do it, which is great and fine, who's communicating with that CRO if something goes wrong? 'Cause CROs do their own thing. All of it. Yeah.

All of it needs to be planned out.

Don't just hand it over.

Planned ahead of time. And if someone is not allowing you to put in input on how it's going to be done, then don't do it.

Yeah, no.

'Cause you know your technology better than they know your technology. They do, yeah.

And it was, I have a girl, Lessons were learned.

It's hard to say no.

It's hard to say no. We're like, oh, they're so interested. And then, yeah, but some lessons were learned and that's, wait, hey, that's everything, right? Of the failures. So, oh my gosh, we could go on and on and talk.

This time went so fast.

It went so fast. Ian is already getting upset.

I was like, one question.

I know.

Yeah.

And then we were just off to the races. We had 3 more pages of questions. And then I knew we wouldn't struggle for things to talk about, but I think we covered an incredible amount of advice, to be honest, of things that people, I think, can listen to and take away and go, oh, that is achievable. And that focus is so, so important right now because there's a lot of shiny objects out there these days.

Absolutely.

And we don't have the time or the money.

So, look, I am a wealth of advice. You know, people can reach out. Technically, I'm still a fractional, a fractional CBO. And so depending on what folks' needs are, yeah, I've ended up on boards of directors, you know, boards, advisory boards versus just CBO. And so, yeah, yeah, reach out. Let me know what your needs are.

Well, I probably will. I'm going to see what I can do to get a rose from you. So. All right.

Thank you.

All right. Show me the invoice. As always, we'll have information about Renee, about SignifyBio, and all of that's going to be in our show notes. So check it out. Thanks for joining us at Bio from the Bayou.

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This podcast was edited by Resonate Recordings.