Battling Banks, Managing Billions & Redefining Wealth | Lori Van Dusen

So you mentioned, and I know this, but I do want to talk about it, getting sued.

Yeah, they sued me. I won.

A founder and CEO of LVW Advisors, she is a renowned investment advisor with over 30 years of experience. She has been inducted into several prestigious awards and is a passionate advocate for client-focused strategies. She is also a board member for various philanthropic causes and has been a founder of the Association of Professional Investment Consultants and Citigroup. Institutional Consulting, Lori Van Dusen.

It's, I have something for you and it's an envelope and you open it up and it's a multi-page document and it says, you know, Citigroup versus Van Dusen.

Oh God. To me it's so clear that you need to change your inner world for your outer world to change.

Right.

But when you're in that state, you can't see that. Running is a way to see that. It's you change your inner world in the process and then your mind works differently or the thoughts are different.

That's the The whole reason I wrote the book was I know the book or the wisdom that I have or the encouragement can change someone's course.

So while you're here, you're just experiencing, and learning and growing is what brings fulfillment. What's up, Zen Hard listeners? This episode is sponsored by Zendrop. Zendrop has a very special place in my heart, not only because I started the company, but because dropshipping is really a life-changing business for me. You see, I tried tons of things when I first got started, and what I love about dropshipping is that there's always an opportunity to sell a new product to a new person. There's billions of people and millions of products you can sell, and you never need to touch inventory. All you need to do is pick a product, run ads to it, and if people buy it, you make a profit. So if you're interested in getting started in your e-commerce journey, check out zendrop.com and get started today. Hello, hello, welcome to the Zen Hard Podcast, guys. In this episode, I'm interviewing Lori Van Dusen. Not only is she the author of Running with Grace, which is a Wall Street Journal bestselling book, she is one of the most prominent financial advisors in the world with crazy allocates like on the Forbes number one financial advisor, Barron's Hall of Fame. Her stories are insane. She got sued by the biggest bank in the world after building a $5.6 billion book of business. She's ran 15 marathons. And I'm not even scratching the surface on some of the stories and ups and downs she's had, but she was generous enough to come on and share these stories and share the insights that she's learned through the process. And I hope you get a lot out of this one. I will say your PD was incredible. It was so, you know, there's some PD and for people who don't know what that is, it's a portfolio defense, right? In Tiger. I know we're not allowed to talk about what goes on in the Tiger Group, but we can talk about Tiger, right?

Yes.

Okay.

It's an international group, networking group, right?

Yeah. Tiger 21.

Yeah.

Of— and it's, it's, it's mainly about money. It's about building and preserving wealth, but it goes much deeper than that.

Right.

And the PD, portfolio defense, is where you basically go through your whole life and your whole story and share it with everyone. And there's some that you're kind of like, all right, you know, and it's interesting, but yours was like the whole time it was captivating and moving. —like, how much preparation? What did that look—

what the process look like for you? I, um, the process for that wasn't really that intensive. It was just really going through— it's like storytelling, you know, going through a story that's kind of complicated, kind of long. It was obviously— parts of it were very emotional, traumatic. And as you said, like, Tiger is this really, we spent a lot of time on the hard science stuff and on finance. And they tell you when you're preparing for your PD, they give you, you know, as you know, like reams of questions. And I'm like, okay, I'll fill out, you know, it's, I don't know, a multi-page questionnaire. And then from there, just present. So I guess after I did the questionnaire, it just occurred to me that there's a lot here. How do I convey this story to a group of people that I really like? There are like 12 of us going on 14, I think, in our group. So there's chapters— for people that don't know, I think there's— how many chapters are there throughout the world? I don't know.

I think there's 1,500 people in it total.

So if you back in, divided by 15, maybe there's 1,050 groups throughout the world. Maybe. No, I think there's 1,000. 1,000 people. No, I don't think there's that many.

If there's 15 people per group, oh yeah, then there's 1,500 total people.

There's only 15 people in the average group?

Well, our group has 12. I don't know how much it goes up to. I don't really know. I just kind of joined on a whim. I didn't really—

okay, so how many chairs are there anyway? So they give you this multi-page questionnaire and then you go through it and you're like, okay, how do I distill this down to something to a group of 12 or 14 people that I don't really know, they don't know me, um, how do I convey this? And I guess I've spent my life honing those kinds of skills. I don't think I talked about it in my PD, but I started out as a musician. Oh, did you?

Yeah, I did not know that.

No, I don't think I said it, which is, which is weird. Um, so what type of musician? Of vocalist. So I went to the Eastman School of Music. I, you know, grew up— I think when I was around 13, maybe, it's when they, you know, kind of discover in school you have a voice, you have a singing voice. And then I was lucky enough to grow up in Rochester, New York, and the Eastman School of Music is there, and they had this preparatory program.

And that was like a high school?

No, it's, it's like Julliard. Oh, when you're really young? It's a conservatory. And Juilliard has these programs too, the Eastman. There are several, um, schools like this that are really for training professional musicians. Like, ultimately, most of the people that go to Juilliard or the Eastman School of Music, they want to go perform.

But how old are you when you go into that school?

I was like, I was like 14.

Does that replace high school, or is it, is it like after high school?

Okay, so it's So it's really disciplined. You, you know, I would go to public high school, and then my grandfather, who kind of raised me and my brother, would pick me up from high school and take me there. I don't know how many times a week. I'm going to say like 3 to 5, depending. Wow. Yeah. And then you spend a lot of your adult life in practice rooms, and it, it's very high, kind of high standards. And so that's what I did versus sports. I started out when I was in junior high playing sports. And then when I figured out I had a voice, um, that was a resource in our backyard. And he was an enlightened person, my grandfather, with his 8th grade education, which I talked a little bit about during my PD at Tiger. Um, so yeah, so I would go and, um, I was trained in classical music, so opera. Oh really? Believe it or not, like, if people could see me, you know, if I was standing up, they go like, you know, I'm 100 pounds.

So How, like, when you say trained, like, from not a musician's point of view, it's like, to me, it's like you're either born with it or you're not. Yeah. Like, how much does, like, for example, if you take someone who's just like a shower singer like myself and put me through vigorous training, like, how good can someone get from training for vocal?

It's a good question. I think you have to have a natural ability. Yeah. So I have a son who's a musician out in LA, and his biggest frustration is that he can sing, he can carry a tune, but he's not a singer. He's brilliant at everything else. So I think you can teach people to— that aren't tone deaf, um, to be— to sing somewhat, um, or harmonize maybe. But I think it's a natural ability. You're either born with it or— yeah, or you're not. Yeah, you know, and I was born with it. I just didn't know it till I was around 13, 12, which—

it's, it's kind of frustrating because we have a voice, we want to be able to use it. Yeah, it's like it's right there. It's like, I don't know, I got— sometimes I wish I could sing.

I think a lot of people wish they could sing, and I realize it's a gift. And this is going to be a weird thing to say, but through COVID, I feel like I lost some of my voice. Really lost the higher ranges of my voice. Like, my speaking voice is not super high, but my singing voice was pretty high, and I think I lost some of it.

Maybe, maybe the government didn't want singers because it brings too much joy to the world. It's a conspiracy. The government's like, let— we got to shut that down.

It's a new conspiracy theory. Yeah. Shut down the singing. Yeah, shut down all singing. No, singing is wonderful, and I always felt like super joyful and peaceful doing it, but it taught me from an early age, like, pattern recognition. Um, it's a meditative space, so I know you do a lot of meditation. That was my meditation when I was a little kid. I didn't know—

no one didn't know it was meditation, but yeah.

And you just process all this stuff. Just whenever you have to concentrate on something really hard or you have a discipline, there comes point, it's like, you know, you get into this zone and you realize, wow, I processed all these other things. It's like when people talk about a runner's high. I'm a marathon runner too, so I think it all— all this stuff connects. I had a— grew up with this discipline. The end of the music story, it's not really an end, but the, the bottom line is I never pursued it as a career, right? Um, but I, I did end up going through this preparatory program and all this stuff we could talk about for hours, but things like juries where you're like 18, 17, 16 years old, and in order to get into school the next year, you have to pass this jury process. So you have to prepare 5 pieces of music in 5 different languages, which I'm not saying I understood. You had to take diction classes. And then getting back to your question about preparing for the PD, I think all that stuff prepared me for a lot of things. Young person. Yeah, I think it's also a good lesson about why, like, shutting down music programs or shutting down the creative process in kids is not a good thing as a parent. Not a good thing to let them kind of explore, and so much comes from it.

Yeah. Do you think that as you get older in life— not, I'm not saying you're old, by the way, I'm just saying as we get older in life, it's okay.

Um, is it harder than you, Jared? You're older than me a lot.

But I know that came off the wrong way. But as we get older, you know, as when we're kids, like, you know, we're in sports, we're in programs, and it's kind of— you're kind of forced into these disciplines. But like, at least for me, as I've gotten older, it's kind of hard to keep the disciplines when you don't have a group or a school or something around you. Yeah, but you're a marathoner. Like, yeah. Has it— was it— has it been more challenging at all to keep disciplines as you've—

I think getting back to that early stage, maybe not, because I was taught. To like— it's a solo sport, singing, right? It was. I mean, yes, I was in a cappella groups and choruses, but in the end, you know, getting through those programs was a solo sport. You either got in or you got— you were booted out, right? So the jury thing, you'd walk in, you'd have 5 pieces of music, no one would talk to you. They'd be sitting in a room, you know, a dark room. You couldn't really see them. They had you know, a pad in front of them and a pencil, and you just— they'd say, please start. You just hear scribbling, and they're just scribbling. Please start. You know, nobody gave you any feedback. Wow. No eye contact. And then you get your grades in the mail, you know, basically pass/fail. Yeah, you can come back. So I think I always was a solo person in everything, you know, no pun intended. I was a soloist. I was a You know, marathoning is a very solo sport. I think it's my personality. How many marathons did you run? About— well, I ran 15. I didn't complete 15. How many did you complete? 13.

How did you not— what happened on the 2 that you didn't?

Oh, gosh. Well, the 2 that I didn't— one, I found out I had a stress fracture and I was just in a lot of pain and I actually completed it. But I— at the time, this is a really long time ago, you didn't have a chip. You just had like a— it was like a paper thing and they just tore it, tore your, you know, bib thing. Yeah. And so I went to the stragglers. This was during the Marine Corps Marathon, and I went, which is in DC. It's a brutal one. And I, I went to the— they call it, I think they call it the stragglers tent.

Yeah, I was in a lot of pain and I, I'd be in that tent the whole time.

I went to the tent and the nurse goes, well, what's wrong? And I go, my leg is, you know, killing me or whatever. And she goes, okay, well, uh, you'll have to wait for the bus, the stragglers bus. You go, when is that coming? In about 2 hours. So I put myself back in and finished the race.

How much did you have to go?

I was on like mile 18.

Okay, so you still had quite a bit to go. 6 miles? No, 26.2. 8 miles. 8.2 miles. We're both struggling with math today.

I don't know what the math thing is. I should be good at math. It should be. Yeah, it should be. But, uh, anyway, yeah, so, so the— and then the other one, I just thought I was more prepared, but my son was only— my second son was only 9 months old. Oh wow. No, I'm sorry, he was 7 months old, and I just— my body wasn't healed enough.

7 months after giving birth?

Yeah, the first one I did, my older son was 9 months. That was the first marathon I did. And then the second or the one that I pulled myself out of, the second one, my other son was 7 months old and I just wasn't ready yet. Thought I was, but I wasn't. Was that your second one ever? No, no, I don't know how many I had done in between. My sons are 4 and a half years apart. And I met this guy a long time ago when I was first training for marathons, which is a long circuitous story, but after my first son, which was 46 hours of labor, I looked at my— I'm my workout partner, my husband, who is very athletic, and I go, well, what are we going to do next? I should be able to do a marathon. Yeah. And they're like, yeah, you're crazy. Because we had done bike racing, we always had all these athletic endeavors, my husband and I and this other friend of ours. And I said, no, I'm serious. If I could do that, 46 hours of labor, and I can't People don't understand.

Like, I don't know if I told you, when we had our first son, we tried to do a home birth. Oh, no. And we— my wife was in labor for 2 days straight. So 48 hours. Yep. And then it got to a point where it wasn't happening and we ended up going to the hospital. But she was having contractions, which I'm sure for— for like— and it's intense. It's not like you're just like, ow. It's like, no, it's like in— I had to stay up with her the whole time. Poor me, right? With the massage gun. Yeah, I, I was complaining how tired I was, and I told her, I'm like, you could easily run a marathon after this. We literally talked about this because of how intense that is.

Sounds like she had a similar, similar experience, which we won't go into because people that haven't had babies won't want to hear the story. Yeah, we got to keep the people having babies. What happened to me though wouldn't happen today because you know, they just let me go way too long. And, you know, you just— I couldn't. I— my son ended up being like— he was a big baby. Yeah, he's a big man and he was a big baby. Yeah. And I'm not, I'm not built for it. But I knew, like, I got through that, you know, what's the next, uh, what's the next thing? Yeah. So that's how I started marathon running. And I did do the first one. Toronto was— it's pretty flat marathon. And I I did okay. You know, most marathon people that are novices that do marathons, their first goal is to do it under 4 hours. Yeah, I did. Wow.

And then, um, what is that per mile approximately?

Oh, it's— I don't know, it's somewhere between 9 and 10 minute miles. Okay. You know, and then I, you know, then I had more lofty goals. And anyway, the most fun one was the New York City Marathon. That's always the most fun with the most energy. And the worst one I would say was the Marine Corps.

Really?

Yeah, because it ends— you, you run uphill. Only a Marine would have designed that. You know, you run uphill. Well, at least the— I'm pretty sure it's still this way to Iwo Jima, to the monument. You run like straight uphill. And I had a lot of expletives coming out of my mouth because remember, I had pulled myself out of this race. Yeah. And now I'm in and I'm not even qualified. Like, I don't even get a time. Yeah, it does. I don't even qualify as a finisher.

Yeah, and then you're going uphill for no reason. You're going uphill for no reason.

Yeah, just to get to the end. Yeah.

So marathoning is, to me, is fascinating because it's— it is such a mental challenge. Um, I actually am a runner, but not like you kind of runner. Like, I'll run 4 miles. Like, yesterday I did a 4-mile run, and it's great for me mentally. It is. I have a kind of this— I signed up for a tri— Olympic triathlon that starts in— that's in August. I haven't started training for it yet, But I'm curious, from when you first got started running to, you know, becoming a good runner, like, how much better do you actually get? Because I'm not that good, and I'm like, a lot better if I train.

Like, you'll get a lot better, like, if you just keep training. So I was starting to say, like, I— the first one I ran, Connor, my older son, was 9 months old. Yeah. But because of the labor experience, I, I could hardly walk, you know, and I was in really good shape before I had him, but I was in bad shape afterwards. And so I just started walking and running around a track. Yeah. And I met this guy at this club, this athletic club that I belonged to, and I was just going around this track, like walking, running, kept extending my runs. And he gave me a book on marathon training, and he at the time was a book called Do you know? I don't remember. Okay. Um, but he was— and you're going to ask me his name— his name was Norm Frank. And you can look this up, but Norm Frank belonged to the club that I belong to. And I, I think about this in my life, like, I was just blessed to meet different people at different walks in life. You never realize how, you know, until you look back, you're like, wow, how did I meet this guy? He had the Guinness Book of World Records for most living person most marathons run. Are you kidding me? Now, I don't know who has it now, but we're talking like my son. Okay, so my sons are 32 and 28. Yeah. So just to put this in perspective, that's why I am a lot older than you, because you could probably be my son technically, right? So technically, technically, yes. So he, he just saw me like struggling around the track, gave me this book and said, Lori, You're going to run your first marathon. You can do it in 9 months. And he said, after you do that, just run one every week and then you'll never need to train. And he was serious. And I would go to the airport and I would see— he had a landscaping business— and I would see his truck there every time I was at the airport every weekend. Wow. He went somewhere around the world and ran a marathon. Wow. And I think— I don't know when Norm died, but he was a really kind, great man. And, you know, people like that just encourage you, you know? Like, here I am, like, I cannot even— I couldn't do one lap around the track after I had Connor. Yeah, he's like, here, how many did he run? I don't know, we should look it up. I don't know, but he had the Guinness Book of World Records.

Norm Frank, we gotta look that up.

He was written up in Sports Illustrated. Can you look it up for us?

How many marathons did Norm Frank run?

Norm Frank, ChatGPT that real quick. Yeah, just so we can fact check, you know, we have to do this. Yeah. I'm actually genuinely curious.

I'm curious too.

And I don't know what year he died. A long time ago now because he was pretty— when I met him, he— he's probably my age. I thought he was old.

Was he still running marathons? 965. 965 marathons. Can you do that times 26?

Wherever you are, Norm, God bless you. I'm just curious how many miles.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's got to be 9, that's 18,000, 25,000 miles just in marathons.

That's not the training, although he did say he didn't train, he just ran marathons after. Here's an abstract question for you.

If you met Norm Frank in a different life where he never ran a marathon before, do you think— what would the difference in his personality be if he never ran?

He never ran? Yeah. Oh gosh, I don't know, probably the probably one similar thing would be he just, he wouldn't have been as happy. He was a happy guy. Yeah, he was always like uplifting and happy. I think when you have purpose, you're, you're happier.

Yeah, 100%. I think also though, on top of just the purpose, it's a goal. You're— well, a goal. And also, you know, there, there's always two paths we can take in any moment. One in which is aligned with our soul and, and what we know we need to do, and the other which is an impulsive thing that we probably shouldn't do. Yeah. And if you're doing that many marathons, you're keeping so many promises to yourself, and then your subconscious starts to root for you and say, oh, we're worthy of this, we're that, we're great. As opposed to the person that never does the thing, who's— we're a piece of shit, we're, you know, we don't deserve anything. And it changes our energy, changes your energy.

And that voice, that negative voice, those are things that we need to learn to shut down. And the only way you do that is through you know, kind of having this higher purpose and energy. And I think he would be a really different person. Yeah, kind of a very crazy question, Jared. I know, I know, but it's true. But I, I don't know, that just popped in my head. Norm Frank, you know, what a great— like, I thought, I've thought during different points in my life, because there have been a lot of, um, periods where I've had to reflect and look back in order to grow or get through certain things. And that's one thing I think about a lot, like people that I have been able to meet, just, it's not random, and spend time with. And looking back, how that person changed my life. And that's why I like to do podcasts. And I, you know, I wrote this book. I— that's a whole reason I wrote the book was I know the book or the wisdom that I have or the encouragement can change someone's course. Like, without Norm, I don't know if I would have been encouraged to run so many marathons. I figured, like, if this guy has the Guinness Book of— and he's like probably was— I don't know how old he was at the time, but he was a lot older than me. You know, I was in my 20s and he was, you know, a senior, more of a senior citizen.

Was he still healthy when you met him? Like, did he— yeah, really? Because the people— people's excuses, I don't want to hurt my knees, or I don't want to— I don't want to wear out my body.

The guy that, uh, founded the New York Marathon, uh, I can't think of his name, it's on the tip of my tongue. I want to say Leibovitz or Oh my gosh, it's on the tip of my tongue. Um, but anyway, he was running till— I don't know, I think he was running until he was almost— he was in his high 80s or— wow, you just slowed down, which is fine. But Norm just slowed down and he kept running. And I don't know when he did his last one, we could look that up.

But I mean, just imagine how different your life would have been if you never took up marathons. Like, it would have been energetically Purpose-wise, being able to get—

It's a total moving meditation, and I could never have had the career I've had without that element of my life. You know, thinking about order of things, like, that was always important to me. Like, how is my health? Because if I wasn't spiritually, emotionally, if I wasn't healthy physically, I couldn't be a good mom or a good wife. Right. Good business person.

So yeah, yeah, 100%. So does when you begin to run more, like, and I use myself as an example because that's the only experience I have, like when I run 4 miles, for example, my mind is like in the beginning, like for the first mile or so, it's just continuously telling me why I should stop and how much longer I have. And then like I kind of catch a stride occasionally for like 5 minutes at a time where I'm just doing it and then the mind comes back in. You know, over the course of 4 miles, which for me takes, you know, almost 40 minutes, my mind probably chimes in 1,000 times trying to convince me that we don't need to keep going. You know, 2 miles, you feel good after 2 miles, whatever. Every excuse it can come up with. Does the mind always do that and you become used to it, or does it quiet down?

I think it quiets down because the more, the more you run, the more you get into a naturally meditative state. Where you're not really thinking about your body. You just, you know, that's that runner's high thing. And it can happen on shorter runs too. So I think the more you do it and the more— I think the other thing about running or any kind of physical activity is, by— if especially if it's challenging, by the time you're done, you're like, I'm so happy I did that. It's just such a positive reinforcement to go do it again, right? You know, and then it becomes habit. And when something becomes a habit, that's when it's really like you cannot go a day without doing it. Now, I don't run every day now. I don't. I've had a lot of injuries and things, but I found other things that replace it and become a moving meditation. So I think the more you do something, the more you get into that other zone of subconsciousness where it's really the most healing place you can be. I used to go out and run and have so much stress, like we're talking about morning, our mornings today. Yeah, I had a really busy morning. And I would be like, I— a lot of people use excuse like, I don't have enough time, I can't do this because I don't have enough time. And I say like, you know, it's essential to find time for yourself. Because I would go out on a run and, you know, training for marathons is time-consuming with little kids and a career and everything. But it became essential because I couldn't get through my day. You know, my days are so full of things. And so I'd go out, I'd have a problem on my mind, get to that point that you're talking about where you're just not thinking about anything. Yeah, at least you don't think you're processing. Yeah, get done with the run and I'd say, that's what I have to do. Yeah, yeah, that's how I fix it.

100%. I experienced that all the time. Coincidentally, I had a friend who called me in a bit of a crisis yesterday. You know, they live out in LA, have an acting career, hasn't been going the way they want it to. You know, a bunch of fears of, I don't want to be, you know, doing this when I'm this age, that age, but I won't go into the details. And to me, it's so clear that you need to change your inner world for your outer world to change. Right. But when you're in that state, you can't see that, right? So running is a way to see that. It's— you change your inner world in the process, and then your mind works differently, or the thoughts are different, or the experience is different.

It's amazing how healing it is and getting out of that day-to-day, your ego driving things, all of that is just— it's a healthy way to get out of it. Now, I do a lot of Bikram yoga now, which was like godsend to me. Yeah, because I was so injured from running. And I just thought— I said to my husband one day, I'm like, I was going through a lot of business issues, I was really stressed out, and running was my release. Like, I need to go run and just process things and get to that. And I was just so injured. I had such lower back pain, um, was told I needed back surgery, all this stuff, which I never had. I tried everything. I tried inversion tables, you know, all kinds of therapies, you name it. Yeah, hot, cold. Yeah, everything. And I just could not get better. I just was like really not able to get beyond a couple miles, and I was just in constant pain. So after trying all these things and being told by two surgeons, you have an L4-L5 herniation and you need surgery, I said to my girlfriend, who's really athletic, she's a trainer, I said, Melissa, I can't, I don't want to have surgery. She's like, hey, there's this place that opened up down the street from where we lived. It was a Bikram at the time, now it's called Hot, a certain kind of Hot 26, or there's 26 postures. It fits a marathon runner or a disciplined person, right? Um, hard to do if you're ADD, but if you're like a marathon runner personality, you go in a hot room, it's 104 degrees, it's, you know, 40% humidity ideally. Usually it's hotter. Yeah, 26 postures, 2 postures, you know, 2 each roughly, um, most classes. And they're all the same, so you know what to expect. And I did my first class. I could hardly walk into it, and I came out and I jogged to my car. Wow. And I'm like, hey, there's something to this. Hot. Wow. Humidity, whatever. So then I did it again and again and again. And I'm not kidding when I say this. So now that you know some of the backstory, I did it every day for 2 years. Wow. 2 years. And I traveled and stuff, and you can find a Bikram yoga— I would literally plan my travel and look it up all over the world. I did Bikram yoga in Japan, in Costa Rica. I, I don't know Spanish, I don't know Japanese, you know, the postures, you know the postures, and you just know the rhythm. Getting back to music, you know the rhythm and kind of the pace, and you just do it. So, um, I'm not going to say I'm 100% healed, but it really did heal.

Well, you said something before, you said people say they don't have the time for something. Yeah, but but that time makes your other time better.

Oh my gosh, I was in so much pain. I was laying on my conference room floor doing meetings, and all my people would like come in and they looked like totally panicked, like, what are we gonna do? Yeah, can't function. Like, I was literally laying on my back. It was ridiculous.

I'm like, guys, I can't sit in a chair. It's almost like, how do you have time for anything else if you don't take care of that?

I know, if you're in pain, if you're in emotional or physical pain, it's really hard to do anything well.

No, life just sucks. Yes, when you're in emotional or physical pain.

So take yourself out for a while. Yeah. You know, until you can come back in and be present. That's, that's kind of the— that's what meditation is all about. Yeah. Right.

Do you, do you still partake in, uh, traditional meditation? I do. Yeah. Yeah.

No, I do. I, I take myself out. Um, I can't say that I— every single day I do meditation, but a lot of days I do.

Yeah. What does your meditation look like? How long do you do it for?

Depends, you know, you know how it is. Like sometimes you get— I, I do my meditation is to music. That's it. There's no words, there's nothing. Um, it's just music. Do you pick your music? I do. I have a couple different playlists that I use, and I don't know whether they just trigger something in my brain waves or what happens, but you go into that zone. And sometimes it's— I think meditation's so amazing because you're like, oh, that was about 5 minutes.

And you look and you're like, "Wow, it's 20 minutes." Do you ever find that like, you know, you think about meditating and your mind is like, "Oh, we don't actually need to. We know what's going to happen anyway." And then you do it and you're like, "Oh, that's why I did it." Exactly. The mind is so clever. It's like, "We don't need to go out and go for the run. We know what the benefit's going to be like. We don't need to do the meditation. We've already done it. We're fine now." But it's like, no, no, no. I know you should do it.

And then, you know, you know the times that you're meditating and you're like, you're, you're, you just cannot shut it down. Yeah, you're— sometimes you can't. Yeah, right. Once in a while you just can't. Yeah. But if I stay in the room long enough with my eyes closed listening to music, I usually get there. Yeah, no matter what the day.

But the harder you look for it, the harder it is to find, at least for me. Like, if I'm like doing meditation or doing my— I don't know if I ever told you about the Perfect Walk. It's a walking formula that I do. I wrote a book about it, not published yet. You'd love it, actually. The more I try to find that, the harder it is to find because my mind's like, where is it? Why can't I get there?

You know, I want to read this.

I want to know. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a— I'll give you a 2-second synopsis on it. It's a, it's a, it's a walking practice. It takes 25 minutes or so. And it goes along with 5 songs. And the first song and the first part of the walk is you're feeling grateful. You open your heart, you think about something you love. Second part is music changes. You feel strong and powerful. So, you know, I like to visualize myself being like 20 feet tall and just breaking through things. And, you know, problems are like little flies. The third part is you let go completely and you just get in the present moment and you completely let go of all thoughts. And the fourth part, which kind of naturally comes from the third part, is you start to feel connected with God or a higher power, whatever, whatever it is you believe in. I like to try to make my awareness go infinitely out and just breathe as if I'm everything. And then the last part is a celebration. So you're celebrating that you got out and did the walk, or you're celebrating that, you know, something that you want to happen, and you're walking as if it already did.

That's wonderful. I want to do it. I need to know about it.

I'll send you— I'll send you a docu— I wrote a, a it's probably like a 30-page document that's like an overview, and it has all the playlists on it too. Okay, so I'll send it to you afterwards. I think you'd love it.

I would love it. I am out every day. So now that I'm not running as much— I mean, I think we might touch on it, but I've been through a little bit of tragedy. And I— 4 and a half years ago, my husband died, and it was very sudden. And I, like I referenced, I'm 100 pounds. Well, I got to 89 pounds. I mean, I just kept getting on the scale and seeing my weight drop. And I'm like, oh my gosh. And I got under 90, and I just heard this voice say, you're gonna die. Wow. So my sons were like, Mom, Mom, here's a shake, you know. And I ended up giving up running for a while because I was burning so many calories. Yeah, you know. So I just started going out walking with my dog. And so I love the idea of having like that kind of moving meditation with different segments.

I love that. It's an intentional practice that like you can get better at and get deeper in. And it's always an enlightening experience.

And I'm always like, every day I have to be outside. I will say that. Yes. Being an outdoor runner, I would never train on a treadmill or anything. And there's something about being connected in nature and outside. I don't care what the weather is. I need to get out there.

Yeah, it changes your state. It does. Changes your energy, your experience, really does. Yeah, like, what are we here for? We're here to experience, right? And your experience can be anywhere from horrible and dreadful to, you know, exponentially joyful and blissful, right? And a lot of that has to do with the things that you make yourself do.

Exactly. Makes you more, more purposeful. And, you know, also gets you to the point where you're like, you know what, I can— I think the reason we're here, I don't really know. It's the overarching question. Nobody knows, right? We all have our own—

well, not all of us, but I'd love to hear yours.

I just think we're here to— we're— whatever gifts we have, we're supposed to pay them forward to other people. But there— we're all humans, and there are times where days just are shitty. Can I swear? You can swear. Fucking horrible days. Yeah, yeah, really bad days. And, um, you're just not that person, right? You can't connect with your soul. But I think our souls, we all have them. Um, they are— they reside within us, and our, our purpose is to try to tap into them and then to share those people. And it's different for everyone, you know, everybody— we are all different.

Well, also, when you have those horrible days and you then are able to tap back into your soul, it makes you that much stronger at your purpose.

Yeah, it does, it does. We, you know, when we first met, that was funny, like we were just standing, remember that? Yeah, we were standing and we just started talking, and it was like I don't know, you meet somebody and I've kind of learned, like, I think old soul.

Yeah, yeah, same. I understand exactly what you mean. And so I was like, oh, we—

and we had a very out-there conversation. Yeah. Anybody coming up that was a business person to our conversation is probably like, what are these two talking about?

Yeah, yeah. But other old souls can resonate with those things.

Yeah, yeah. Because we are here for, you know, a higher purpose. I don't know. I wouldn't still be standing if I didn't think that.

I think really all there, all there is is to experience and to grow. And all the challenges are ways to learn more about who you are, how to find yourself through those challenges. Yeah, yeah. You'll look back one day when you're, you know, on your deathbed or you're about to die or whatever the situation is, when life is almost over, and you'll look back at your life and what was it? It was just one big experience. And there's not a goal at the end. There's not— you don't leave with a scoreboard. You're not in the Guinness World Record. No. When you're gone, you're gone. So while you're here, you're just experiencing it and learning and growing is what brings fulfillment.

You reminded me of something that somebody said, I think not yesterday, but the day before I was at this conference and this, this gentleman, Chip Conley, spoke. He was the first— it was Tiger Conference. So he's the first speaker, I think. Can I say that or do I have to edit it out? I don't know. I don't know. We might have to edit it out anyway. He's an amazing person, and he, he said during part of his talk, um, you know, he's done work with Huberman, he's done work on, you know, kind of spiritual, emotional. He had a near-death experience that changed his life. He's an amazing person, I thought. And he's got an institute called MEA, which we can look up what that means. I'm sure we can talk about this. Yes, I'm sure I'd love people to know about it. Yeah, he's written books, but he said something that I thought was a great question for friends or parents. Like, he said, ask yourself, if you died today, what would you want your children to say about your legacy? Like, what you did in the world. Yeah, you know, how you made it a better place.

Yeah, it's, it's powerful, you know. I— and you and I have talked a bit about plant medicine journeys. Yes. And in my last one that I was at You know, I went through a lot of changes with my business, with my— where I was living. You know, we moved to Florida, we had a baby, we have another baby on the way. There's all these opportunities, and sometimes it's like, well, what should I do, right? What's my purpose? What's my mission? What's my focus? And in my last journey, I asked that question, and the answer was to wake up and love your family. Yeah. And everything else—

got the chills when you said that.

Yeah, it's everything that matters is right here, but we're always looking outside for this answer and for this fulfillment. Meanwhile, we have it all right here. And I'm a firm believer that in being that way, you will create an external world beyond your dreams. But when you're chasing them and you're attached to them and they're not happening the way you want them to, and you're attached to those expectations and in turn feeling ways because things aren't happening the way you want them to. You're changing that inner world, which in turn changes the outer world to not be what you want it to be, right? And it was just so obvious in that moment.

The fact that you just said that, I have to go back to what you just said because I'm sure that my sons will listen to this. So yeah, my younger son knows that, um, I have embraced this to a certain extent you know, plant-based therapies. There was so much work done on a lot of this stuff, you know, before, um, Nancy Reagan. I'm not political at all, but, you know, a long time ago around VATS and things like that. And you and I, that was our first conversation. Yeah, talking about that. Yeah, yeah. So Connor, this is for my older son. I do know something about this. Yeah, just so you're not shocked, I know a little bit about, about it.

Oh, he never talked to him about that before?

No, my younger son knows. We talk about it a lot. My younger son, one of his degrees was in neuroscience, and his second degree was in music composition. So he's a dual major. Yeah, he's a really great musician. And my older son, Connor— Cole— that's Cole. My older son Connor is super crazy smart. He's got— I can't even describe how smart he is. And I mean, he embraces this too, but I don't think he knows his mom does. Yeah, guess what, cat's out of the bag.

I mean, I think any tool that allows us to understand ourselves more is a great tool that you should explore. I think there's a fine line though. I think that there's, you know, people go searching in places that maybe get a little bit out of hand. Yeah, but I think that there are a lot of tools that can help us expand ourselves.

I think there are a lot of tools and some people— I just, I just worry that people get dependent on things, right? Versus, you know, what we just spent I don't know how much time, half hour, 40 minutes talking about, which is really that kind of how do you find that meditative state? How do you take yourself out off your own frequency, your own channel, tuning into social media, all those things we do that reinforce, you know, kind of not, not where we need to be. How do we get to that kind of higher purpose in place? And a lot of that is just doing the things we talked about. Yeah, but, but plant-based therapies and some of the other things that are going on that have been, um, kind of reintroduced are really great for certain people and wouldn't be something that I would do all the time. But I think, you know, look, I, I was diagnosed with PTSD, um, after my husband died, and I tried a lot of different therapy. I'd never been in therapy before. I never talked to a psychotherapist. I, you know, if you know my walk in my journey, and we talked about marathon running and discipline. I had a lot of coping skills. Yeah, I've been sued by the largest bank in the world. I've been, you know, yeah, I've had a lot of stuff happen. Yeah, you know, and I never was prepared. I didn't have the tools in my toolbox for, for his death. Yeah. And so, you know, when you have PTSD, it's a kind of different thing. And I think a lot of these therapies are really, really helpful for vets with PTSD Really good. But it's not something that, you know, people should use as a crutch.

As a crutch, no. But it could be used as an anchor that shows you something that you can learn how to find. Absolutely.

In your own life. Absolutely. You know, um, amazing enlightenment can come from like tapping into, you know, certain things in combination with all the other things we talked about.

Yeah. So you mentioned, and I know this, but I do want to talk about it, getting sued by— I don't know what you're allowed to speak about. I can talk about it. Yeah, they sued me. Okay, so paint the picture of you. You know, you had a company and a successful career at the time, but you're up against a behemoth. What was that like?

So I This was in, um, I left. I started at Lehman Brothers, which became the Shearson side, which became Smith Barney. I started training in the World Trade Center. I became a financial advisor mostly to institutions, and I had almost a $5.8 billion practice, and with a desk and a phone. Yeah, just, just all organically grown and At the time that I left Smith Barney to go, I thought I should go independent and my team followed me. I wanted to go independent because, and again, this was August 31st, 2008, because my kids were a little bit older. I just thought it was time. I'd fought a lot of battles around conflicts of interest and I think I was a little ahead of my time in certain ways. And I just was wanting— I thought that the model for financial advisory was going to an independent channel. Right. And I always thought I was a fiduciary, but I was fighting all these kind of internal battles. They tried, you know, to listen. But I think after a while, I just was like, this is not going to work. Right. So I had helped start something called Citigroup Institutional Consulting, which is now Greystone. Some people might know that. Yeah. Morgan Stanley. So I was one of a small handful of people that started this Citigroup Institutional Consulting. So Smith Barney was part of Citigroup. We were owned by them. When I left, I didn't leave with anything. I left my art hanging on the wall. I left with a desk and a phone. My team followed me. Obviously, we had conversations and they followed me, but we didn't take any client data. We didn't take anything. Right. The only thing you're allowed to take, it's called the broker protocol, are names and phone numbers. Gotcha. So you leave all your files. You— they will do so much forensic study on whatever you did. You cannot take anything. Yeah. And we didn't. Yeah. So that's supposed to protect you, right? But in my case, they sued me pretty much instantaneously.

So I want to just zoom in to the moment that you found out you were getting sued. Yeah. What, what was that day like?

Well, the lawsuit was delivered to me.

How? Served. By a human being came up to you, like to your house or to your office or my office?

Yeah.

So they came in. Did you know you were getting served or was it like, who is this person? No, because for people that don't know, getting served— I got served one time when I was in my 20s. I was, I was operating a mechanical bull on a college tour for a startup I was part of. And some guy walked up to me and said, hey, are you Jared Goetz? And I said, Yeah, what's going on? He's like, I have something for you. And I was like, oh, it's always, I have something. I didn't even know what it was until I opened it. And then I had a 35-page document that made me look like the worst person in the world. Yes. And it caught me. So I want to hear your— and I still, I think I have PTSD from it.

So yeah, I mean, it's, I have something for you and it's an envelope and you open it up and it's a multi-page document and it says, you know, Citigroup versus Van Dusen. Oh God. And I'm like, what? I—

Citigroup versus—

and I'm like, at the time they were the largest bank in the world, right?

This is like billions and billions of dollars to throw at anything.

And I'm like, yeah, I was a well-known person in the industry. I'd helped start a lot of intra-industry associations, taught a lot. People knew me. I was successful from, you know, really from nothing. Um, just a lot of great loving family and a good mentorship here and there. But, you know, I really worked and gave back to the industry, and I was like shocked. I, I was also the little girl in school who always colored in the lines. Yeah, which is kind of hilarious. You know my whole story, you're like, you really were that kid? But I was like the straight-A kid. Yeah, never got out of line in class. And I'm a twin, and my brother was the said. Yeah. So I just, you know, was like— you're like, wait, what did I do wrong? How fat was the envelope? I don't know. You said 35 pages. It was more than that.

Yours is probably way more than mine.

I don't know. There was something like— you could look it up. It's public, matter of public— it's in the public domain. Yeah. But I mean, it was something like, you know, there were several counts against me, including things like corporate raiding, uh, intellectual property theft, which I said was an oxymoron. Because I had given them all my intellectual property. I left everything. I taught people. I was like, what intellectual property did they give me? Yeah, you know, just all these things. And I'm like, these— this, this is crazy. Did it have a dollar amount on it?

On the—

uh, no, I don't remember there being a dollar amount. The dollar amount comes later. Okay. When, you know, they say, do you want to settle? And whatever. Yeah, it, it was a lot of money. Okay, okay. Yeah. And I just was like, okay, what do I— like, I'm thinking, what do I do? I need a lawyer.

Did you read it all? Yes. Oh, and how painful is it to read? Because you're like, these are all lies about how—

like, I never did any of these things. Are you kidding me? I was so indignant, really. That was— I was so angry and indignant. Were any of those charges like potentially criminal if they had won? No, this is all through FINRA, and it was all— I mean, this whole thing was was designed, I believe, to be, um, to intimidate anyone from doing what I was doing.

Right. I'm just trying to get into your head in the moment because like there's one thing where I'm going to lose all my money, there's another thing I'm going to go to jail. There—

no, there was nothing, nothing criminal. It was all though would have cost me a lot of money, right? And it ended in the end, it did cost me a lot of money because I almost lost my entire business over it even though I won the lawsuit. Yeah. You know, because clients don't have patience when they figure out you're being sued by the largest bank in the world. You're distracted. Um, there, there are other parts to this story because I had joined another independent firm. Yeah, which is another part of the story. And that firm— this is— okay, so the timeline's August 31st, 2008. I joined this large firm. At the time, they were one of the largest independents. There weren't— most people weren't independent, right? At the same time, in the press, I'm being credited as the largest practice ever to leave what's called a bank or a wirehouse and go independent. So it's in the Wall Street Journal, it's in the New York Times. And then a month later, we're in— think about this— September 2008 financial crisis. We're in the teeth of it, right? And then the lawsuit appears. So the process was, first there was a TRO, so they put a temporary restraining order on me. That was the day I left, or the day after. So that just means you can't contact anyone. And I— my lawyers quickly got rid of that. Yeah, like, that got thrown out by the judge. Yeah, that said it was meritless. So my lawyers said, um, you're not going to get sued because it got thrown out, right? Then the lawsuit showed up.

How many? Like, just— that's within weeks, right?

Within weeks, the lawsuit showed up. I— and I was like, what? And then when you see it in writing, you're like, holy cow. So then, you know, I ended up hiring a very expensive law firm and they kept telling me that Citigroup would settle. These things always get settled. They split the baby, which is a really weird term. I don't even understand that term. That's what they said though. Split the baby. Why would you ever do that? Like, it's gonna cost you money, but you know, I said I didn't do anything wrong. And they're like, you just wanna get this over with you can get on with your, you know, life. But at the same time, I was still doing business because the TRO was thrown out, so I could contact clients anyway.

Were you in a stride of momentum before the lawsuit came, and like, did it like make your life come to a screeching halt?

Nope, I was in a stride of momentum, and I stuck with it, and it didn't— I just kept trusting my lawyers. Like, this is a meritless, it's a baseless, and so it really didn't Honestly, what bothered me more was we were in the middle of a financial crisis. People were looking to me to be, have, you know, be their advisor and my team. And I couldn't be distracted. It would have been a breach of what I was supposed to do. And so I just— maybe it's part of my personality, which we can go back to, but I'm an optimist. And I was like, I'm— I didn't do anything wrong. Yeah. And also, I do believe in this. There is this like really crazy, you know, gift that I think I have, which is, you know, I could visualize that I was— I knew I didn't do anything wrong, that I wasn't, you know, going to be— that I wasn't going to be held responsible for these charges. And I just kept going. Yeah, I kept going until, you know, the world was almost coming to an end. I got calls from major people in finance that I can't really mention on this, but there are people that were well known. They were clients of ours, you know, or they sat on a board, and they would call me. And I think about this now, and they'd say You know, this is in October of 2008. Do you think this is the end of the financial system? Wow. So that's— that was more distracting than Citigroup's lawsuit, right? And the most distracting thing was the partners that I joined, I found out, were pretty much insolvent. Wow. So I started to really— you know, before I joined them, I didn't do forensic accounting, right? Didn't look at their financials the way I probably should have. Which is a hard thing to— it's a hard thing for your ego. Yeah. To get over. Yeah. Especially if what you do for a living— and there's a lot of stories around this— but what you do for a living is to, you know, invest, protect people's wealth. I failed to protect myself by not— you know, every time I pushed harder, they gave me financials, but I never asked for, you know, forensics around anything. There are a lot of signs, there are a lot of things that I now know I should have done. So that was the most distracting thing because I was like, oh my gosh, it's the financial crisis, not sure if we're gonna make it out of this. The largest bank in the world is suing me, but they might not make it out. And oh, by the way, these guys are insolvent. So how do I get out of this? Yeah, and that was really hard.

Like, okay, in that moment, you know, you wake up, new day starts. Do you get flooded with these stressful thoughts immediately?

Yeah, that's why we circle back to running and all this meditation, because without it, I could not have gotten through this. I had to focus on the clients. I had to focus on calming people down because people were— it was one of the most stressful periods in business that you could ever— I had ever been through. And in terms of feeling responsible for people, like, you know, everything was melting down. Yeah. And we, you know, we were institutional investors, were trained a certain way. I'd spent a lot of time, um, as really a research analyst and unpacking investments and building portfolios that would be stress tests. So our portfolios held up better than the markets did, but still there are lots of losses. People were worried that it was Yeah, we were insolvent.

So, so for people that were not around during that time, myself included, like you always hear about the, you know, the meltdown, the '08 crisis. Like, what were the— I mean, how much did the markets move and like what sectors were hit the hardest? Like, what did that look like for people?

Everything was hit because it's a black swan event where you realize that there are a lot of these kind of packed mortgage-based products that were in the financial system that were sold as like a AAA-rated bond. Ah, but they were subprime mortgages. So it's, it's a very complex story, but basically, you know, people should watch, um, The Big Short. Yeah, I really want a great movie that really teaches you what it was all about. But, um, when, um, everything started to collapse, it's just the basics of it is there was just so much leverage in the system and we didn't we meaning financial— the people in the financial system, the heads of banks, the people in the Federal Reserve didn't know it, right? And so we got out of it by printing a ton of money, and Jamie Dimon spearheaded it, who I know, who's a wonderful guy, and spearheaded really saving the financial system. I think we learned a lot. We put certain regulations in place and got rid of other ones. But we personally never owned these subprime mortgages or these packaged products. I've always been against them. I want to know what I own, right? I really need to understand what I own before we invest in it. So that wasn't our problem. But we, you know, it's when you have a black swan event, everything becomes highly correlated, right? Nothing is spared, right? In terms of growth assets, everything. And people were worried their, their cash and their, you know, fixed income was insolvent. Like, if the banks went down, you lost everything. Just imagine, you know, that's what people were struggling with. Am I going to lose everything I have? And what am I going to do, right? Oh, and if the only, the only thing you could have done is had gold bars. Yeah, you know, in your— in your—

I have some of those in my house. Me too. Don't nobody rob me. Me too.

That's probably why, you know, I have the gold bars. But, you know, they're not easy to kind of transact in and lug around. No, no, no.

It's a doomsday thing for me. Yeah.

And then, you know, so how long did this cycle—

like, how long were people very, very stressed for during the '08 crash?

Well, it was, it was quite a while. But if you, if you were— I think one of the things we had going for us is the discipline that, you know, we talked about earlier, but we also have it on the investment side. And we started to rebalance in March of the following year, and the markets recovered because of all the intervention. You know, it was one of the hugest rallies of all time. And it does teach you that, like, if you— getting back to kind of mindset and things— if you spin yourself into this place where you're like, this is the end of the world scenario, just, just step back and think about that. Who cares, right? What— who cares about your investments, right? You have to take a pragmatic approach, which I think I did, even with all the stress I had. I was like, we have to do the right things. We have to assume this isn't the end of the world, that we're going to recover. Things have gotten so cheap, we need to rebalance. All those kinds of things that you do when you've done this for a while and you're a disciplined investor and you've managed institutional capital and people are relying on you. You can't lose your head, right? Go crazy. Right. So I was so focused on that. But I realized at the same time, you know, I'm with this company that's insolvent because without getting into all the details, I do write about it. It's in my book. So if anybody's really interested in all these stories, they can go get the book. But I, they, I was pretty sure they weren't going to make it and I was still being sued by Citigroup, so I couldn't do anything. That was like a prisoner's dilemma. Yeah. That was the worst part of it. It's like I had to continue to try to do my best with the clients, but I was like, how am I going to get out of this?

Were you sitting on like cash and assets that could at least fund the process? Yeah, this business was—

yeah, but I lost a lot, you know, I did. I— when— what happened was I ended up finding out, I think it was 18 months after Citigroup sued me, we won. Maybe from start to end it was 24 months. We won. And we— it was supposed to be longer because I'll just back up and say our lawyers to the whole thing, my lawyers kept saying they're going to settle, they're going to settle, and then they didn't settle. It went to arbitration. Yeah. So when it went to arbitration, I told the story during my PD, but that was when I was scared. Yeah. You know, I walked in the room and I realized, are these arbit— this arbitration panel is going to decide my career.

How do they pick that panel, by the way?

People— I don't know how they pick it, honestly. It's good.

Like, how do you know they're not like, you know, planted in from one side?

I, I don't know. I, I didn't even— I'd never been in arbitration, never been involved in a lawsuit. Again, I was this little girl colored in the lines. I was like, I don't even know what— I think what dawned on me is when I said this during, you know, my presentation, but when you prepare for a lawsuit your lawyers will put together every email that you've ever written, practically. I mean, it's kind of crazy. Yeah. And right before, the way they prep you is they basically open up this binder and they're like, do you remember writing this email? Do you remember this correspondence? Remember this text? You remember, you know, and they're just going to pull something out. And we've gone through everything. These lawyers are going, this is probably what they're gonna— they're gonna ask you what you meant by and so you're not like— you're not— you're prepared to an extent. But the thing that always— I always said to myself is, I didn't do anything wrong, right? I'm just going to go in, right, and tell the truth, right, and hope that the truth resides, right, you know, it resonates with people. And so I walked into the— my whole team had been deposed before me, and I felt so bad about that. Yeah, they were pulled through it. I was the last person to go. Yeah. And I think it was 2 weeks, like 2 weeks of arbitration. I don't really remember. I think so. And my lawyers were like, you know, the head litigator, he's like, shows me, you know, shows me the last email and he goes, okay, go, go in there. He goes, don't worry, when you go in there, everybody's going to perk up. I go, what do you mean? Because I hadn't thought about who are these people. Yeah. Until that moment. I know it sounds kind of dumb, but I hadn't like even Yeah, thought about it. He's like, well, you're a celebrity. Everybody in finance, they know who you are. They're financial advisors and people that are, you know, registered investment advisors. The panel is picked by FINRA, I guess. I don't know. I honestly, I really don't know. Should fact-check me on how they pick. I've never been picked for one. And then I panic because I'm like, well, none of these people know me. Oh God, like, I So I just went in and I did tell the truth. But lawyers also tell you, only answer the question, right?

Nothing more.

Yes, no, don't color commentary on it. And of course I color— I gave color commentary on everything. I didn't, I didn't do what they said. Do you think that helped you, or—

Yes. Yeah, I think it helped me. Showed your human side.

And I think it helped me, and I think the, the panel knew I was telling the truth. Yeah, you know, this stuff was kind of all trumped up.

And how long after that did you find out the decision?

Very quickly. It was supposed to be like somebody said, like months or whatever. And I think it was a matter of a couple of weeks. And one of the people on my team called me. It was an internal call and I picked it up and he goes, I think we won this. Really? I go, what? It's too early. What do you mean? He goes, go on the FINRA website. So I went on it. And I saw denied, denied, denied, denied, denied. Oh, I was like, wow, we won this, you know. And then I felt like I was being told— and I am a believer in God, and I believe that I was being told, like, you need to stay in it. And I am going to tell this, um, because it's really important that people know there is this— I am a very spiritual person. I've learned a lot in my life. And, you know, when you get literally on your knees I mean, this is, this is absolutely what happened. I was in my office, my office door was closed, the Citigroup— the decision hadn't come down yet, and I was like, I had gotten on my knees and I said a prayer, you know, like, God, if I'm not meant to do this, it's okay. Wow. Surrender. Show me what I'm supposed to do. And, um, within— it felt like a movie, like within minutes this person on my team calls me, he's like, hey, we got a decision. I'm like, we won? I go, what are you talking about? So I'd go on the website and I'm like, oh my God, we won! So holy shit, I'm like, I'm supposed to do this. So then I, then I had the strength to negotiate my exit from the firm I had joined and then finally start my own business. And that was 20 2011. That's how long this all took. Wow. So, and I have to say, I was pretty damaged financially. I lost all of our big clients, RFP'd, you know, that's the term when someone, you know, when an institution with multiple decision makers decides they're going to fire you, they send a request for proposal to other people and you get fired. And so I can't blame any of them for doing that, but when you see billions of dollars that you've built up over a 21-year-old 21-year career go out the door. It's really sickening. Yeah, it was sick. Yeah, I just knew it was going to happen though. It wasn't— and I'm like, okay, I got to rebuild this now.

And you never thought to countersue for damages?

You can't. No, you actually sign— I think it's— again, I'm not a lawyer, so— but there's binding arbitration. And that— there are a lot of things that I think— I look back now that I think were wrong, like the fact that you to pay your own legal fees.

Yeah, because it's kind of a lose-lose.

Yeah, it is a lose-lose because they, they're Goliath. They still won because I bet you there are people in finance who knew me then or now and still think that Citigroup won. Yeah. And they didn't, you know. Yeah. But they did enough damage that people would think twice about, you know, leaving.

Yeah, it's a lose-lose for you and it's a win-win for them. Yeah. So to them, the money doesn't matter.

Yeah, it wasn't— yeah. And I, I just think it's so— there's such an irony around them suing me. I was a little nothing compared to their financials. But when you think about it, they almost went bankrupt. Yeah. During this period of time, they're suing me. I have to pay my own legal fees at the end, even though, you know, everything was dismissed. So— and it's binding. Yeah, it's binding. And that— I don't, you know, I just took the advice of my lawyers. I did what what they said to do legally. And then I, you know, was able to negotiate my exit and start my own firm.

Did the weight of that whole situation like have a strong impact on you physically, mentally, or was— were you keeping the running practice going, which kind of kept you in the flow?

Like, yeah, during it, remember I said that I was laying on the conference room floor? Yeah, true. That was when it was. Yeah, because it was a stress of it, everything. I think, you know, our physical problems oftentimes are— they manifest from emotional problems. Yeah, I was under so much stress that— and I couldn't run. And that's when I found Bikram yoga. Like, all this stuff happened following that. But yeah, it was really, really rough. Yeah, period. Um, to try to stay in balance. But I was very energized once we won because I knew it was kind of like a mandate, like you gotta keep You've wanted to create this firm. You've wanted to go independent. You've wanted to do this.

Here's your sign to move forward.

Your sign. Move forward and do it. But you have— and I kept my team intact. I never cut anyone's salary. I just didn't— I didn't get paid. And I just built the business back differently, though. Yeah, very different. It wasn't a bunch of institutions. It was a lot of high net worth individuals and family offices. And somehow, by the grace of God, I I built back, I think, a better firm. Yeah. And it's a business now. It was a practice, now it's business.

Yeah. You know, what a comeback story. Yeah. So it's like, the interesting thing is like the, the stress from that situation, you know, with the numbers being where they were, like it's kind of relative. Like you might have someone that got fired from McDonald's and, you know, doesn't know how to pay a $900 rent bill that feels the same emotions as someone dealing with many millions of dollars and people It's like the emotions are the same. Exactly. And the way to deal with them are the same.

Exactly. Yeah, you know, that's why, um, you know, so let's see, we had COVID, the business was, um, doing really well. We had COVID, it kind of remem— that, that March, April, May of COVID of, you know, 2020 kind of reminded me a lot of this period that I went through in 2008 where you're just so focused on the clients and so focused on trying to do the right thing and get through it. Yeah, you were essential, you know. And that whole period was really, um, stressful. But I, you know, nothing could have prepared me for in June of 2020 the loss of my husband. And the reason I wrote my book looking at your book. But the reason I wrote my book was it was a journaling exercise around healing, um, just around— like, a therapist told me you should just write down what you're feeling and your thoughts. And it became like this book of, well, journaling of stories and thoughts and a way to kind of move through it. And what I realized in the end is the reason that I published— it was a very— it's a very vulnerable book. It's really out there. It has some of the stuff that we've talked about, but it's, it's an in-depth book. It's, it's not quite a business book, it's more like a memoir. And I just thought, who the heck cares about my story really, when I was writing it? But there it became— I got to the point where I was like, you know what, this is, this is going to be— people can relate to this. Yeah, you don't have to be a finance person, they don't have to be somebody who built a multi-billion dollar team. This is for everybody going through a transition, or people that have gone. We are humans. We're all going to lose something. Yeah. And we're all going to die, right? You know, and we all have to grapple with these things. And when you're younger, you don't think of it as much, right? You know, something has happened in your life. So I was like, how do I teach people, especially younger people who haven't been through a lot of these things? How do I pay it forward? Yeah. Because it's a very— there's a lot of shades of gray for people right now. So I'm like, you know, the human experience, we're more alike than we're different. We go through more things than that are common than are not, right? And how do I get this out there so that people feel encouraged and they, you know, take the next step?

Yeah, it's not the end of the world.

Not the end of the world. And actually, there's a reason for this stuff. Yeah, every person you've met, everything that happens to you, every sequence is there for a reason. Yeah. And you, you know, people are famous as humans where our egos are famous for going, well, you know, especially in the groups that we have run in, like, well, if, you know, I didn't meet that person or that person didn't rob me or that didn't happen to me in that business transaction, I would be here. That is not the way it's supposed to work, right? Doesn't work that way, right?

It's so true. You know, it's so true.

It teaches you that life— I'm looking at this, you're beautiful. I— is that a, is that a painting or is it a photograph? Photograph? I think it's some kind of print. Oh, it's beautiful. It's pulling me in. But life is really— there's a lot of patterns in it, and every person that you touch, everybody that you meet, every experience that you have is there for a reason. And if you take one thing out you know, your life would be really different. So I wouldn't know what I know now, right, had I not been through all that stuff, right?

I like to think of life as like— I mean, at the end of the day, everything you've done, every word you've spoken, every interaction you had, every thought you've had paints this multi-dimensional, complex tapestry, right? And when you're in one point of it, you don't really know what it's supposed to look like. But at the end of it, you look and it's this beautiful symphony. Yes. But you don't— you can't know what it's gonna look like until it's over. You can't. But you do need to have the faith that you're on the journey that you're supposed to be on.

Yeah, you do, you do. And there's, you know, you only have control of the present, right? That's it. Do anything about the past, that's like living in regret. Yeah. Live back there. And a lot of people do. Those are the people I'd love to try to get to. Yeah, because you're wasting your life if you're living in the past. Yeah. And if you live in the future, you're not present with what's going on, and you're disrupting your present by worrying about the future. Yes. And I think about all the plans that we make, and, you know, there's a— I think it's a Yiddish Jewish saying, you know, man plans, God laughs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Um, it's true. Like, that doesn't mean you shouldn't plan, but the plans rarely come out the way you exactly think.

Well, they can't. If we live in a universe of unlimited possibilities, anything over infinity is zero. So you cannot have expectations of how things are supposed to happen. Maybe occasionally something will happen the way you expect it to, but most— almost every time it doesn't.

It doesn't. And that's the thing, you know, especially for, um, I would be a self-described control freak, you know. I've had to learn a lot. I think this was all meant to, you know, be a learning experience. So that's all it is.

And I think You know, after hearing your whole journey and story, I really think that running is a key. It's a key piece of, you know, something that's allowed you to get back and get the energy you need to get through things. Like, I think that saying I don't have the time to do something like that is the most counterintuitive thing because without it, you can't do it.

You can't accomplish the things that, you know, at least I couldn't have. And I think it is not only running, but just kind of what is a moving meditation? Yeah. Back to your 25-minute walk. Yeah, that's a moving meditation.

Yeah. Something, some practice that you give yourself the space to realign and re-remember the truth and get reconnected with what you know. Right. Beyond the mind. Right. Every day. Every day. That is so important.

It is. And the days— there are days because I'm human that I don't do that, but it's so rare. It's so rare. Same for me.

And I feel— yeah, same for me. It's rare. The problem is like in society and in social media and things that a lot of people consume, that stuff's not really talked about very much. What's talked about is, you know, you gotta grind, you gotta put in the 18-hour days, you know, you gotta do this, that, whatever. And it's like, if you work that hard without handling and taking care of yourself first, you're not going to produce anything that you're meant to produce. It's like— but my point is, like, that stuff's talked about a lot in society, and the stuff that we're talking about now is not talked about enough.

I agree. But when I was growing up, it was even more— there was less noise. So that's what I'm really thankful. Less noise. Yeah, better. But there still was a lot of noise, and the noise was a little different. My— the expectations were like, I didn't leave my office some nights with 4 kids till like 9 or 10 at night, and I'd look around, you know, no one would be there, and I'd be there But I just had this work discipline and work ethic, but I knew I couldn't put in those hours without taking care of myself. And then once you have a family, it's like even more important because you're never gonna— you're not gonna be present for your family. You're not going to be the parent that you need to be. You're not— you just— it's— you have to take care of yourself first, you know? You have to. And yeah, to me, I would literally calendar my workouts, my running, my moving meditation. This is what goes on my schedule first. Yeah. The second thing is family time. Yeah. Dinners together. What do I— where do I need to pick up the kids or drop them off, whatever? All of that stuff first. First, those. First, me. Second, family. Third, work. Yeah. And when I was younger, you know, I didn't— I didn't have a lot of other activities because who has time for other activities? And I feel like now younger people, um, they want to try to do everything. You can't. Yeah, you just— the, the message is you can't. But take care of yourself.

Yeah, first. Yeah.

And then, you know, if you have a goal, it, it makes you more goal-driven, and you want to be a success in your career or whatever, or whatever your goals are, go for it, you know. But take care of yourself first, but, but go for it. Like, don't do it in a half-assed way. Yeah. Go for it. And, and I hope that, like, my message is like, look, life isn't fair. Stuff is going to happen to you that really sucks, but there's, there's this power in getting through it. Yeah. And there's this resiliency that comes, and then there's this purpose. And so if you can just kind of have that knowledge, like, that's a known— if you can just keep going forward But, but go for it, you know, work at it. I feel like a lot of people just, you know, kind of are existing in this world. Yeah. And it's not a good place to be.

Problem is it's, it's so easy to just exist now because there's so many things at your fingertips that give you the outlet, which is scrolling on your phone. It gives you the dopamine your brain's looking for. No one's bored anymore. No, there's no boredom anymore. And boredom is a thing that propels you to do something, right? It doesn't exist. No, it's easy to just sit there and do nothing and play games or scroll.

Or— but don't you think, like, it's, it's almost harder now? Like, I, I feel like kids need parents who are really disciplined, put discipline in place around all this stuff, because it's, it's retarding— which is a musical term— our brains. Yeah, we're going backwards by not, you know, having the focus, cutting the noise out, having the discipline, taking care of ourselves, you know, having that meditative quiet time where no one is talking to you. Yeah, no one. You're not on your phone, you're not looking at social media, you're not tuned into your own channel or whatever it is. You just have that meditative time. And I feel like you're blessed because you kind of grew up at an age— you're young, but you didn't have as much of that going on, right?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. And it's just a blessing. And now I think you, as a parent, it's harder for sure.

It's like all the noise and the social media just powers the mind and the ego. It just fuels it. And on top of, you know, taking away your ability to focus and, and that time with your soul, on top of that, it also gives you a glimpse into a bunch of things that now you're like, oh, I want to do this, I want to do that, I want to travel here, I want to do that, I want I want to drive that car. I want this watch. I want, I want, I want. And then the mind is just—

I'm sure everyone has ADD. Yeah. I mean, we train ourselves to have squirrel brains.

And the mind just gets more powerful, which then in those moments, which we have them every day, all the time, where you can choose right or left, you can choose to not eat the chocolate cake or eat it. You can choose to go on the run or sit on the couch. The mind is now more powerful. Right. And it makes it so that it's harder to make those good decisions. Yeah. And it's only growing at a smarter and stronger pace with technology. So it's more and more important to have the awareness now than it's ever been before. And it's going to be more and more important as we go on in time. Unless AI and technology blow itself up and it goes away, like it's more— it will be more important to understand what this human mechanism is.

Just today, I— there are the reports that came out on reading. I don't know if you had it. Moment to even see that. But no, we're still going backwards as a society in America. You know, kids in 4th grade and 5th grade— backwards, backwards. Wow. In terms of reading skills. Like, I just think about when we were— when I was a kid, like, you would go for a walk or go play with your friends or read a book. Yeah, read a book.

Yeah, the alternative was lay on your back and toss a ball in the air. Yeah, you know, it's—

there's nobody talking to you. There's no We just need more of that. Yeah. So, you know, and there are all these studies now too about kids and their, you know, how looking at a screen one-dimensionally, it moves you backwards in terms of development. Yeah. So there's, there's so many reasons to like create that meditative space first, take care of yourself, and then set priorities, go for it, and cut the noise out. Yeah.

I think the most powerful thing you could do as a parent though is is live that way and be an example of someone that your kid looks up to as a role model. Because if you're not a role model and you're not living that way and you try to tell them how to be— oh yeah, the humans can sense inauthenticity. Yes. Like, and they could sense genuine authenticity. And by being a certain way, your kids will want to be that way as well. Absolutely true. So it's our responsibility.

We're, we're their first mentors. Yeah. We really are. Yeah, I feel very— I'm a very fortunate person, so I, I do want to pay it forward. I hope my sons would think, would say, Mom and Dad were our good mentors. Mom's a good mentor.

I'm sure they, I'm sure they do and, and will. That's what keeps me going. I think about my son. I think about— we have another one on the way. You know, before you have kids, it's like, okay, you do it for you. You do it to get things because you want to get the things to experience the things. Some people get— most people don't get the things, but the people who do, they realize the things don't fill the void. And then it's like, what are you doing it for? When you have kids, it's like, I'm doing it for them, doing everything I do for them. Getting up and going on the walk or the run for them. At the end of the day, it all, it all extends out. It does.

As you know, when you're a young parent too, like you are that is totally— it's the most unselfish thing you could do. You become a parent, you're like, oh, it's not about me, right? You know? Yeah. But as you mature, you get wiser too. You realize that, like, it's easy in this life to fall in this trap. Well, if only I had this, or if only that. Oh yeah. Whether it's money or, you know, partnerships or whatever it is, and you can't fill the bucket. No, that's my message. Yeah, bucket, it's— there's not enough water. You'll never fill the bucket. You'll always want something else, and it will always lead down the same road, which is not fulfilling. Yes, so true. Until you do what we talked about. I think our overarching theme is, you know, we're here for a reason, and we've got to develop the soul. More than, you know, and we're here to pay it forward. Yeah. And I think that's another thing I would say to people is like, spend some time paying it forward with others. You'd be amazed, like just getting involved in a charity or getting involved in an organization and seeing how other people, you know, what their lives are like and how you can help them. It changes everything, gives you, you know, purpose and direction. But I, I do remember being a— when I first was a parent, I'm like, wow, this changed my whole life and my whole focus.

Yeah, it's, it's so much fun too. And also a lot of work. I think a lot of people listening will say, okay, I hear you. I don't need the Lamborghini, but I'm still going to try to get it and still go down that path until, you know, maybe it's not a Lamborghini, whatever it is they want. You know, there's a difference between learning something conceptually and through experience is my point. So like people will hear this and it'll click for them. And some people might live that way, but a lot of other people will still have to go through the journey. But hearing the conversation is a good anchor point. It'll give you a roadmap to look towards, right? You'll get the thing eventually. Or in reality, most, most people never get the thing they're chasing for and they chase for their whole lives. Yeah. Until they get burnt out or hit rock bottom, whatever it may be. But I think the message here is nothing will fill the bucket or the void or whatever you want to call it, except for finding yourself. Keeping promises to yourself. Exactly. Being the person that you need to be and not worry so much about what you need to do.

And that's how you find your purpose or why you're supposed to be here, I guess, right?

Yeah, that's the journey. I think, uh, I think that's a good note to, to end the conversation on. What a great, uh, talk. Really do appreciate, uh, the vulnerability, the insight, the depth. Amazing.

Yeah, thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it.