Energy, Success, Balance & Fasting | Matthew Fink

At first I didn't care. I was just doing it to get the sale. Yeah, but something changed in me. I started to give a shit, and that's when it dawned on me that you're not selling a product, you're selling the relationship.

People who haven't gotten the material success yet, they're like, I hear you, but let me go try to get this first. What do you say to people like that?

When it's all focused on the bank account, these individuals are not that happy. They're overscheduled, they're rushing to do everything. With people, they're They forget about the people in front of them.

There has to be the mental side of things as well. The mind, the thoughts. So how do you maintain your energy?

You never would look positive to me if I yelled at you. But if I can take a bad situation and rev you up in a positive way, then that makes me feel good and you feel good. What I realized is there's rich in a bank account and there's rich in your life. Which one you should prioritize the most? If you don't get it right, It's pretty empty at the end.

Do you believe in God? What's up, guys? Welcome to the Zen Hard Podcast. On this episode, I'm interviewing Matt Finck, a good friend of mine, golf buddy. But I learned a lot about Matt today. If you're listening to this, there's a good chance that you or someone you know has used the product that he's manufactured, mainly bras. But we go deep into things like mindset, fasting, how to enjoy life, how to create relationships, and you get to hear Matt's great story. So stay tuned and enjoy. So you got COVID and you feel effects still?

Definitely. I've gone down this path of like, how do I correct it? And it's from like, there's words on the street of like, nicotine.

Yeah, I heard about that.

Yeah, so that's why I think so much nicotine. So I mean, just in case, I don't smoke, but, uh, I bought the gum. Yeah. So me being an extremist, I start chewing it. You know, when you don't have nicotine on a regular basis, so yeah, what did that roll up? Oh my God, I was so nauseous and sick, lightheaded. I'm like sitting at my desk going, oh my God, how many milligrams was it?

Do you remember?

You know, it's the gum, it's the Nicorette.

Yeah, but they come in different strengths.

I, I'm like the Amazon, like, freak. I just click and go. Yeah. So, oh yeah, I just, I have a, I, I don't try it first. I get the, the one in the travel, the separately packed ones, and then I just start chewing. Yeah. And I was ready to throw up. Yeah.

And I, I was out of commission for, I think, these things, the, the little pouches.

I probably take like 2 or 3 of these a day. Is that like the Zinns?

It's like a Zinn, but these are called Ons. They're 4mg, so they're not like savage amounts. It's nice.

Did you, did you get the head buzz or do you feel sick?

No, neither.

Well, the reality was, is like, I can't tell if it worked because I'm afraid to chew it again. It's like, that's so sick. And then you go down this path of like, okay, I'm going to try theanine and, you know, Morgenstein fruit extract and all the different, you know, you research like crazy. And, um, what I realized is the old-fashioned stuff, you know, never fails. There's sleep. Yeah. So as you age, you can, you can persevere through it at the, during the younger years, but as you get older, you have to sleep because if you don't, regardless of what your, my Oura Ring will tell me or any of the other devices you're wearing, a Whoop, I can see. I know what it's going to say when I open up the app.

Yeah.

I don't need it to tell me, but I still check it like a madman because I'm an extremist.

Which one do you use?

I use the Oura and I just got another ring. Yeah. Because I just seem to renew them all the time because I get it again. I'm a clickbait machine. Yeah. And my wife got mad at me because she wanted to get it to me, you know, for the holidays or anniversary.

You sort of too quick. That's the problem. The same thing happens to me. It's like, what do you want for Christmas? I'm like, anything I want, I typically just get it immediately. Yeah. So you need to find something that you think I would like. It's thoughtful. Can't ask what you want.

Does she ask you to give you a list, or do you— is your wife able to be creative on it?

Well, there is no list. Anything. I mean, Amazon at your fingertips is just—

no, what I'm saying is because she can't figure out what to get you because you already buy everything for yourself because we're click machines, right? We can't help it. We just reorder, we just refresh, right? Like, all right, I'm getting low, I might as well buy some. Yeah. Does she ask you for a list or no?

The list doesn't exist because if for anyone it goes on a list, it automatically gets purchased.

Okay. For instant gratification.

So at our fingertips.

It's like getting up to a cash register, you see something, you buy it. I just had to, I give my wife a list now.

Yeah.

Yeah. Like I'm going to get a cold plunge. Oh yeah. Yeah. And I know we've We've talked about this before offline. Yeah. And, um, I have a problem going in 42 degrees. Yeah, I gotta go north of 50.

They keep it too cold at the club, way too cold.

And it shouldn't be that hard. Bitter.

It's bitter at the club.

It's, it's a joke. And I have this argument with the manager, how, why can't we just have it at 50? And it's we're going back and forth of, well, the extra 10 degrees has these benefits. And I'm like, I really, I can't get on board with that. Yeah. If you're cold, you're cold.

Yeah. Sometimes it's not at 42 though. Some people just change it up.

Yeah. I'm one of them.

I'm like, why is it at 55?

But at the time I get, by the time I leave, it's, it only went up a degree or two. So it's—

Jared Goetz, do you, do you use it often?

I was, but It's too cold. So I'm, I just, I'm gonna just get one at the house and end this fiasco. There you go. So, and I'm gonna save myself, I don't know, it's a great Christmas present. 30 minutes.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's a 30-minute time save. So, but now I gotta solve the sauna issue.

Let's get a sauna too.

That's next.

I'm actually in the market for a sauna right now. I've done tons of research.

Well, are you, do you buy it or do you let her buy it?

I buy it.

Okay. So I, I feel like I want to buy it too, but should I?

I feel like I send you the exact one you want. Exactly. I could send you the research after this. Cause you know, we're renovating the backyard.

Yeah.

We built the cold plunge in the ground and then we need a cool looking sauna to go there. So I did all the research.

So is it the old school rocks? Is it infrared? I can, that's both.

Yeah.

Ooh, a two for one. Yeah. Even better. Yeah. Yeah. What brand?

I don't even remember the name of the brand. I have a whole list in my notes I'll send to you. So how do you— like, what other— I mean, obviously you look very young for your age. For the listeners here, how old are you?

49.

49. I remember when he told me, I was shocked. I thought maybe 42. Yeah, because I look young for my age, and I thought you were like, you know, I mean, you look a little older than me.

Yeah, you're, you're definitely—

you're young. So what are, what are some of the things that you've that you do.

It's a flattering comment. Um, I, I, uh, I work hard at it. Um, do you? And good genes. That— it's a combination. Um, I'll tell you, like, for many years I've like— I think about it all the time, like, how can I always make sure that my life or my— the feeling I have is the same for the longest period of time of my years here? Yeah. Because I look around and I'm, I'm fearful of being hunched over, wrinkly. It doesn't seem comfortable when I see people like that. And it's a huge reminder when we moved here, because in the Northeast, it tends to be a younger community because people, when they get into start retiring, they start to go to the warm weather. So, um, I've done tons of research. I've I've tried everything on myself from whether it's— I know this sounds a little crazy, like it's nutritional and it's physical. So the first thing on the nutrition is, you know, I was a Men's Health— I was reading every issue, all the, you know, nonstop and testing. So they say, and I think it's true because I'm living proof, because you said you made the comment. Yeah. I actually get more embarrassed when people say it. I appreciate it, but it's like, you know, it's, yeah, it's, it's hard to like, what do you say?

Say it's a nice compliment.

Yeah, it's nice.

But yeah, people tell me all the time, I answer my end. I'm like, ah, sorry.

That problem. So just kidding. So, so what I, I, my, my original starting point was a 16-hour fast. And I'll tell you why.

Yeah. Daily, like intermittent fasting or just like a one-time?

Every day. Yeah. For the last 13 years.

16 hours of fastedness.

16 hours I do not eat anything.

Okay. That's great.

Every day. Now, if I go on vacation, yeah, I'm going to eat. Yeah. I'm with my kids.

Enjoy it.

I'm with my wife. I'm going to— family. I'm going to enjoy it. However, Right back to it. 16 hours. What does it do? And there's many studies. I can find a million studies that are agreeing and disagreeing. Yeah, you can look at data in many ways, but you don't know until you try it. Right, right. So I learned from reading about it in Men's Health originally, and it was David Zinzenko, the original editor.

Okay.

Not, he's gone, he's gone beyond a long time since, since I read it. When your stomach digests food too often, it ages you. Hmm.

Okay.

Kind of makes sense. Yeah. It kind of correlates to me and I have no scientific evidence of this. People who drink a lot. Yeah. You're digesting. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

And your liver's working pretty hard too.

You're working nonstop. I don't know about you, but if you look at anyone who drinks a lot, do they look young?

No, they definitely don't.

Yeah. So since I've been 36, which was, I had a time at 36 is when this all began and I kind of had this realization like, oh my God, life does end. Yeah. It was like the craziest time of my life. And that's when I began the hard research and started testing. And it was, it was an interesting reason why it I got there. However, to, to finish the subject on fasting. So I started it and it's 36, you still look young, you know, you're in your 30s. Yeah. And you feel great and you're starting to maybe get a few ailments here and there. You're like, oh, why is my back or this and that? Yeah. You can fix that easily with the, you know, proper strength training.

Yeah.

So I just started doing it and I was really becoming more vegan at the same time. Oh yeah. But pescatarian-ish. Yeah. I always thought steak was the enemy.

Yeah.

Dairy was the enemy. I'm gonna eat vegetables. And at the time I was like, this is great. Why? I'm only eating really 2 meals a day. So it cut back that extra meal. And that was a big deal calorically. Yeah. It's in and out, right? What do you expend on energy? How much do you put in? It's simple math. Yeah. So I just started doing it, and I knew it was anti-aging at the same time. And I was like, oh wow, I'm getting leaner faster. And I'm a metamorphic by nature, so I have to work harder to look lean.

Yeah.

Or slender. Yeah. I'm not a slender human. Yeah. By my natural build. So by doing the fast, I felt the energy levels were off the charts. At first it was difficult to not have the hunger. Yeah. And then, you know, I'd have a black coffee, nothing in it because you can't. Yes, you can't have calories. Right, right. But once you get used to it, it's simple. You just drink, have a coffee in the morning, some water.

What are the times? Like, what's the schedule? Like, when would you eat your first meal and the last meal?

So that's interesting. So it really depends on your schedule at home. And if you have a family going, usually you'll eat a little earlier during the week and you'll go out at night and you'll You'll sit here and you'll try to eat as fast as you can and stop because you know your next meal might be 11 a.m., noon, 1, 2. Let me tell you, it gets to 2 p.m., it's not the easiest feat. Yeah, because you might have been up having fun, been at a party, and you're going to drink till 11. Well, you pay the fiddler. Yeah, next day. Oh yeah, before you can eat. So typically for me, 6 p.m. dinner, I get home. Be done by 7 PM, 11 AM I'm eating again and I'm having lunch.

Yeah.

At 11 AM.

Yeah.

And I'm hungry. Yeah. Do you know what it's like to feel hungry? Because most Americans don't know. They just eat.

This is true.

Because you're told to eat.

Yeah.

You're told to have breakfast. Yeah. Right? So I can say, unless there was no access to food, I hadn't felt hungry in a long time. Yeah. Felt good.

Yeah, because for everyone, you get hungry, I'm gonna go grab a snack. Yeah, it's right there.

But the toxic hunger went away. So that was the major difference. The second you get rid of like the sugars from— that's part of like doing the— this is where it kind of elevated beyond the fat, the fasting.

Yeah.

However, like you start learning like, wow, this worked. Now I'm getting leaner because it was one of my goals. I— my energy levels are through the roof. Which is amazing. You sleep good. This is great, right? So I just start talking to people. What happens? They notice. People notice. Wow. I was getting the young things like, why, you really got leaner. Yeah. And it wasn't like I was overweight. It was just, you're just getting tighter. Yeah. Oh, I'm 16-hour fasting. And one person would ask me, two people would ask me. I'd be going, I'd be on sales calls. I'd always love to travel. Go see customers, and a lot of 'em are sitting at desks and they're getting heavier every year. I see 'em, they're gaining weight, and they'd be like, what do you do? How are you doing? I'd be like, oh, 16-hour fast. They're like, well, what else? What are you eating? So it turned into this massive, like, I felt like I was a nutritionist. So, so I wrote a manifesto on, on foodie, on what to do, the fasting, the food. 'Cause I was testing like vegetables, I was testing the fish, how much. And it got to the point where I could basically eat eat whatever I wanted in 8 hours. Yeah. And it totally works. And then I tested sugars and less sugar and the stevia thing and just kind of went— I still am on this journey, to be honest.

Yeah.

And, uh, it's fun to do.

So have you ever done any long fasts, like multiple days?

You know, I haven't, except for my religion, like one day.

Gotcha.

Um, I'm not, you know what, I just never done it.

I've heard about the whole cleansing, you know, the autophagy that you go into when you start to, you know, get rid of your, the zombie cells that the, you know, I don't really know all the science behind it, but apparently long fasts after like 2 days is when you start to eliminate a lot of things that have been building up inside of you.

Like in your liver too, right?

If you've, yeah, I think in your liver and your gut, you just, you go into autophagy, which is a time where your body cleanses. So I've done a 3-day fast.

So, how is it?

I actually, when I was—

Well, how do you feel is really the question.

So, the craziest one I did, I was 22 and I had a mentor who was very overweight and I was living nearby him. We were working together and he was like in the high 300 pounds. And, we watched a documentary called— it was about juice fasting. It was called—

Yeah.

Jared Goetz, something, or Diet Tribe. I forget what it's called. It was about juice fasting though. And so we decided to do a 21-day juice cleanse where we hired a girl to come in and make juice every day. And we only had juice for 21 days. And I'll say, and I was not fat at all. I was like exactly how I am now. Day 3, I was, I remember I went with my friend to a cafe to like get some work done and he ordered a scone. And I felt like I felt like a tiger. I was like, I would fucking jump on it, eat them motherfucking skull and lick, jump. It was so hard. But like day 4, day 5, my energy was insane. It was, it wasn't like, you know, when you drink coffee or you take something like some kind of stimulant, you feel like, it was just like a very clean and pure energy. And recently I did a 3-day just water fast. And by day 3, I had like crazy epiphanies. Like just my brain was just like so clear.

Yeah. Oh, that's the difference too, is like you get into a different state of mind. I think you talk about fasting, there's more elements to it, kind of what you're talking about. And I use this example all the time. The, there's an example of, is used as of Ramadan. Yeah. Yeah. The, um, the Muslim religion, you don't, you can't eat. It's like 24 hours. So you know, are you gonna know the answer here? But Hakeem Olajuwon was a really great NBA basketball player. Okay. He played the most minutes, scored the most points. He's Muslim.

Yeah.

During Ramadan.

Oh really?

Wow. So I'm, the theory is, is there, but in reality it works. You just said how clear you were. Yeah. You, Now there's also aspects where if you just juice cleanse, it helps eradicate a disease in you. Yeah. Even cancer.

Yeah.

And then you could even fast totally with no juice.

Yeah.

But there is— they won't really put it in the journals because it's not medically—

yeah, they can't say permissible. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it will starve a cancer.

Starve— yeah, cancer I think thrives on sugars, and, and if you starve it, it kind of—

you water fast Yeah, that's it. And you can basically destroy cancer, but medically it's not recommended, but people do it.

Yeah, medically recommended is a whole different rabbit hole.

Yeah, we could— yeah, go down that rabbit hole. We can go down the whole pill rabbit hole all the time. Yeah, but yes, if you can figure it out naturally, um, you're better off first and use modern-day science when you need it because it's there.

Yeah, don't let your life end because you refused science, but don't depend on the medical system to keep you healthy.

Correct.

That's the main thing. If you're— if you have an emergency, certainly, you know, we're blessed to have all this technology and science, but—

correct. And if you think about how our ancestors came to be, what they did, we can learn from that. Yeah. And you figure out what's good for you. There's not every food resonates in your gut or my gut, right? Which is fine. But if you can figure out what does work, and sometimes it's multiple things, like I've gone from— I've literally gone from the vegan, pescatarian, to full carnivore. Yeah. To now a blend. I think when I first met you, you were doing full carnivore. Yeah, it, uh, a friend of mine turned me on to it and, uh, Guy from our neighborhood.

Yeah, we play golf with.

Oh yeah, fuck. He, uh, we went to go play Jupiter Hills and all the— well, actually it started a little earlier. Let me back it up. We were on a vacation, we were on vacation in Croatia. Okay. With some couples and vacation time, eat whatever you want. And one of our my, my good friend's wife, uh, passes me a— asks a lot of questions first.

What do I eat?

She's like, oh, you're eating, you know, you're having nuts and chickpeas and beans. She's like, what about all those lectins?

All the lectins, that's a whole—

I go, what are you talking about? So I had not researched that. Yeah, because I was in a place where I felt good, I'm lean, it's not hard for me. Yeah. I still work out a lot, but feeling great. Yeah. And she handed me the— she told me about this book, uh, and carnivore and lectins. And I read the book and I was— I read it in literally like 36 hours. I couldn't put it down. I was basically crying. Yeah.

I'm doing everything wrong.

I'm like, what did I do the last decade? I literally been doing it all wrong. And I was just like, okay, what am I going to eat now? Even though I felt great.

Yeah.

So that was another, like, major turning point. And I just got through it.

Yeah.

Like, it took me, like, at least a year to figure it out. So I went in as being an extremist. I went full bore, all in, hardcore carnivore, and it didn't resonate with me perfectly at all. Yeah, it actually was hard for me. Gained a ton of muscle. Cholesterol levels went up and I check my labs every quarter. So I'm a, I just wanna know, cuz I, if I'm gonna try something on myself, you gotta see what the actual data says. Yeah. 'Cause you could hurt yourself.

Yeah.

So went to the doctor, we agreed, and after going through that journey and Hart saying to me, oh no, you wanna go to carnivore and this and that and okay, fine. I realize I need some vegetables.

Yeah.

And I'm reading this book and it's saying vegetables have defense chemicals that are not good for you. And I'm like, how is spinach not good for you?

I'm already eating organic and I'm sure you, you're doing the same whole organic is not even a, yeah, of course.

Of course. But now it went to another level. Like organic's not enough for me.

Yeah.

It's gotta be hydroponic. Yeah. Completely clean. Yeah. Okay. So my wife thinks I'm crazy and she's right. Yeah. I, who I basically have to tell you are only the hydroponic greens. I mean, this is, have you done the sprouts?

Do you know anything about sprouts?

The broccoli sprouts?

Yeah. I read a book. Oh, about sprouts and it changed. I eat sprouts almost every day now.

So the answer is yes, I have 'em every day. I was listening to Andrew Huberman, who I like specific parts of his podcast, and he had a lady on, was talking about saunas and broccoli sprouts were the two major takeaways of a very long podcast that I struggle to listen to.

Great takeaways.

I want the show notes and I still listen to them, but like I zone out because I'm like, no, no, too technical. However, if you just in life, if you can pick a few things out that are key aspects, whoever you meet and apply them and they work, game on. This is great. So that's essentially what I've been doing. And I had this whole journey. Now I'm on hydroponic, it's growing lettuces. And again, my wife thinks I'm crazy and she's right. I am. A little off, but it's fine though, because it makes me feel good to have it. And I have more— I had meat again. Yeah, grass-fed, only grass-fed. I have it and I have fish still, but I don't overdo the vegetables anymore. Yeah. And as a result, I'm not Kim Jong Un and I, you know, I do defecate, but no flatulation really anymore. Minimal.

Yeah.

Which is a big plus because when I was doing all the vegan stuff, I mean, I was like a trumpet.

Yeah.

Okay. Swedish oven in the bed. You know what that is? Pull the covers down, make sure. And it's just a Dutch oven. Oh, so Sweden in my world, it's St. Catherines. Okay. Yeah.

I know the Dutch oven.

Yeah. Dutch oven. Just too many, too many noises.

The thing is, it's like, there's so much information and you learn something and then you hear the exact opposite conflicting information. And it's like, well, what do you do? And there's so much new information. And then the problem is it's a big echo chamber. So, someone says something and they have some research to back it up and a bunch of other people say it. Then someone's like, no, that's wrong. They have some evidence to back it up, but a bunch of people say that. And if you're consuming all this stuff, it could drive you crazy. But so, I like to boil down like, okay, all that aside, what are the kind of takeaways? Like, fasting is great. Sprouts are great. Yeah. Moderate red meat that's, that's grass-fed, great. And just moderation in general.

That's it. Moderation.

So, which is hard for people, I guess.

It's very hard for extremists. It's hard for people who go, go, go. But one thing in life, experience can't be taught. And my grandfather, who I spoke to all the time, was always said to me, 'cause he always said, Matthew, You're a bit of an extremist. Yeah. He's like, moderation, moderation. And every time I get extreme, I'm like, Poppy told me moderation.

Oh, you had a Poppy too? Oh yeah, that's what I call my grandpa.

Yeah. And yeah, he was the best. And he's actually not too far from here, um, in the military. And, um, he always would say that to me and He was a tremendous, he was a dentist, tremendous cook, and always was into vitamins in the early on. And you know, he lived till 90-something years old, so he had a good, he had a good run.

Yeah.

And felt good most of the years. So, uh, I learned a lot from him and figured out like, okay, moderation. But it's easy to get away from that. Oh, this is great. More. Yeah. But it, it never works. Rarely. Too much of anything. Yeah.

Or too much of anything never works.

Yeah.

But, and so there's, there's definitely. The nutrition, but there's— there has to be the mental side of things as well. Like the mind, the thoughts, the beliefs. Like you generally— I mean, unless you go home and lock yourself in a closet and cry all the time, whenever I see you, you're in a great mood, good energy, even if it's late at night or whatever, like you always have. So how do you maintain your energy? I mean, are you— you do consume caffeine?

Are you like—

what do you do to kind of keep your balance throughout the day?

Mental state is a very, very tough topic. Um, I do my best, um, to put, to be in a headspace where it's, I'm calm. So in my early part of my life, it was a lot of yelling. Um, and you know, you, you learn from growing up and seeing what's around you. Yeah. Right.

So you becomes your reality.

Yeah. You grow up in your household or whatever town, in your town you're from.

Yeah.

And that generation of parents, they were yellers.

Yeah.

So you real— at least for me, like, I realized I was becoming that.

Yeah.

In my 20s. And I'm like, wait a minute, this isn't serving me well. Yeah. How I can deliver the same message to someone. So this is like the— I think a lot. Like, I'm— if I'm not doing something at work, I'm flying somewhere, I'm in the car, I'm thinking about this. Like, my mind is I'm recording all the time. I don't know what it is or why. Yeah. Everything around me, I'm watching, I'm recording it. Yeah. And I'll recall it later. It's something I somehow do. I don't know why. But I realized that if I can deliver, instead of, instead of getting louder, if I can talk to someone in a calm way, and even, and I think it's calm and sometimes it may not even be calm, but in my mind, I think I'm calm. I can deliver. It's how you deliver the message. And that can inflict change in someone better than being like, no, do it like I said. So, and you get more out of people. So you learn this, you don't, you can't be taught it. And it's through trial and error and how you look after I speak to you.

Yeah.

Right. You never would look positive to me. If I yelled at you, right? But if I can take a bad situation and rev you up in a positive way by being talking like we are now, then that makes me feel good and you feel good. Yeah. Now how I do this— I have coffee. I, inside my— it— me as a person, like, I love just to joke around. Yeah. I can take it.

Yeah.

But I can certainly give it. Now I've been, I've been getting a lot more than I've been— I, I've been taking a lot more than I've been giving lately. And that's okay because that means people are having a time. So that to me is like part of the fun. Like, if people are making fun of me back, then I've done my job. That's how you really laugh around good people too, because society is so offended.

Oh, it's like, if you're around people who can make fun of each other, you're in the right circle.

Correct. And we're just joking around. Yeah. So to me, like, I have to have like part of my life where I'm around people that I can laugh with. They— we don't take ourselves very seriously. And if we're belly laughing to the point where sometimes we're in tears, so that's— it is the pinnacle. Yeah, it's the pinnacle of the best day possible. Yeah. And what I realized is the more people I can be around like that is why I'm happy when I see you. So we came from the Northeast. It tends to be more stressful.

Yeah.

Uh, more drama.

Yeah.

And what my wife and I both realize is everyone's very even keel here. Is it in general? There's still some, at least we may be in a microcosm where we live. We're in, we're in a special place where people just seem to be calm.

Yeah.

However, um, I did re— I do realize, 'cause we go back and forth in the summer. It's just a much, um, easier way here. And, and we've surrounded ourselves with similar people. Yeah. And by doing that, you're happier, right? And you— and now if someone's not that way and I can't joke around with them and they can't have fun, well, I'm just not gonna hang out with them.

Exactly.

I don't care anymore. Like, it's not like it matters. Like, there's plenty of people, and I'm an acquired taste. I'm well aware.

Yeah.

But if you want to laugh and have fun and, and get into tears, yeah, because it just got so funny. Like, case in point, like, my son and I, we went to Europe, we went to Italy, we were on a golf trip slash fun trip. Yeah, went to Italy and London. We went straight into character. Like, American, there you go. What country are you from? We'd be like, Texas, best country in the world. What do you know what to say? Like, but the expressions that came back, they just started smiling, laughing. And there are times when I'm with my son and he's— we somehow, we've like, he's older now and he's got this similar trait. We will go into tears of laughter.

That's amazing.

Like, I mean, we can't breathe. It's off the charts.

Yeah.

And it's like, that to me is like the best— that happens why we're living it.

When you're, when you're younger, that happens all the time. But when you get older, life gets more serious and you're around more serious people, it becomes more and more rare.

It's so hard to get it. And when you find it again, that's the addiction that I have. That's where I want to be extreme.

Yeah.

Is if I can go play golf with you. And, and we have.

Yeah.

And we've laughed a lot.

Yeah, it's a good day.

There's not much more.

Yeah.

So it doesn't matter. Like, success, there's only so much. Well, what do you say? A lot of life. Yeah.

So, so I understand that people who haven't gotten the material success yet, they're like, yeah, I, I hear you, but like, but let me go try to get this first. Right? And it's like that, and they disregard the things that are actually important. What do you say to people like that?

Well, I, I have this theory about all these people that like success and you're chasing something materialistic. If, if you don't quickly understand that that will come on its own with the right timing, luck, and it may not totally come actually, but it's not your end-all. I, I kind of, what I, what I say to my kids and people who think this way, I say, listen, I, I, I dumb it down to like, what is it? What does it mean to be rich? There's, I've dumbed it down to two things. There's rich in a bank account. Yeah. And there's rich in your life and who's around you and all the stuff we talked about, laughing, family, wife, kids, health, health. Let me tell you, it doesn't matter how much money you have. If you're not healthy, you're fucked. 100%. So if you don't prioritize, no. Having money in the bank is very helpful.

Yeah.

It comes with a lot of baggage too.

Certainly.

If you don't prioritize what part of what rich is and what's which one you should prioritize the most, if you don't get it right, it's pretty empty at the end. And I know for a fact when it's all focused on the bank account, these individuals are not that happy.

Yeah.

They're overscheduled. They're rushing to do everything with people that are not even their friends.

And then they're going to be on their deathbed one day or their family.

Yeah. It's a constant, oh, I have to go. I have to go to this house. I have to fly here. I have, I have to go to this dinner. They forget about the people in front of them who really matter. So my theory is if you work really hard, chances are you're gonna, you're gonna get enough in the bank. You may not be a billionaire and that's okay. There's not a ton of them. They, they, they, you can see how many there are. It's not, it's a lot more in these 3.

You might not, whatever, wherever. Do you believe in God?

You know, I think there's something. I just don't know. I'm not, I'm not so sure. I think as you get older, you, you believe in it more because you're hopeful. There's something there at the end.

Yeah.

You know, it's a tough—

if I got my head around it, it means totally different things to totally different people. I used to think God was like some guy in the sky, and now I have belief that we're all God experiencing our own creation. And oh, that's—

and there's so— really? Yeah.

And, and so like, I, you know, I can't name the place, but you know, the plant medicine place that I go to, um, you know, I, since I've been there, I was there my 6th time. I go twice a year. And when you go after your 4th time, you could do a level 2 where like the person who's with you is kind of prompting questions. So when you're in the medicine, you can answer the questions. And my first question was like, what's my mission in life? You know, and I'm like sitting here like, yeah, I've been a successful entrepreneur. I have a great family. I have, you know, I have books. I want to do, you know, this podcast. I have all these things I want to do. What's my mission? Yeah. And, and, and, you know, I'm imagining like this whole thing and it was You're asking this person? The person is asking me my own question through the headphones and I speak the answer because you have a recorder on. And so, my answer to what it was like, you know, Jared, what's your mission in life? And I got the music on, I'm in my space and it was so clear. It was wake up and love your family.

You've got it.

It's all right here. But we're always so focused on trying to get these other things. Disregarding the things that matter most.

The fact that you figured it out at your age, you have won the lottery. But I'm telling you, I figured it out, but it doesn't—

I don't always live that way. And I kept— but I catch myself, right? It's right. It's good to have that awareness.

It's easy to forget. Yeah, quickly, because you get caught up. Yeah. And this goes right back to what I was just saying, like, if you don't keep yourself in check of which rich is important to you, prioritize it properly, you're going to be disappointed in the end. Yeah, it doesn't matter how much you have. If you don't have the right people around you for that feeling of being loved and people who care about you and you care about them, and then the laughs happen and all the stuff we talked about earlier. Yeah, then you can go have a you're not going to have that great of a time with yes people and not real true friends and you're rushed through life. Yeah.

And, it's like over society, society has this misconception that like you're, you're playing a game and it's like there's a scorecard and at the end it's like, this is what I got to. But it's like, the fact is you and wherever you believe in your religion, reincarnation, whatever it may be, this version of you only lives once. And everyone that you're around is only living one time. It's not like they get to do it over again and tell you, So there's no right or wrong way to live. Nobody knows the right or wrong way. No, there's no, there's no, the only thing that matters is, is how you feel in the moment. Cause the only thing that exists is this moment.

That's right. And social media, which has its tremendous benefits, is one of the major issues with getting focused on the bank account. Oh, big time. Because people are like, oh, I need to be there. I need to be on that boat. I need to be in that country.

Yeah. And what are they doing now? They're disregarding their moment right now. Bingo.

Yeah.

And I also, to go a layer deeper, I also am a very firm believer that, you know, like when I say energy, it's like there's thoughts, there's emotions, there's feelings. Like it's all this kind of this algorithm of what we are and our energy in the moment creates our life. Like that's, it's a different way of looking at it. We think, oh, we need to figure it out and go get things. I like to look at it as if you're right here, right now, being the version of you that you need to be and feeling the things that you need to feel, things are happening outside of your conception of space and time and around you creating this, this, you know, at the end of life, you look back, you know, it was a, it was a beautiful symphony. When you're in it, maybe you're in some weird part of the symphony that sounds weird and you don't know what's going on, but, but the whole thing becomes a beautiful picture. Yeah. But when you're, you're chasing those things, you're on social media, you're looking at those things, what are you doing? You're creating a sense of separation from where you are and where you want to be. That's which creates emotions of fear or scarcity or lack. And then that energy changes and creates a life of more scarcity and lack and fear and less love and less joy. And it's backwards. Yeah, you want backwards.

It ends up consuming you. Yeah. And when you should just be smelling the roses right in front of you and on that part of being rich. And to add to what you're saying, when you're in that moment, I don't know if it's a religious thing, a karma thing, good things seem to happen. Opportunities come to you. People resonate. It glows from people. They want to be around these people. Yeah. And it makes you more attractive in all ways, not looks or sexually, just as friends and business opportunities and doing things, it's— that is, um, it's, it's magnetic. Yeah. And it's— you can tell everyone you want, they don't really know until they— but yeah, their headspace like that.

But a simple, like, example is, like, you ever have those days where maybe you're, like, you're going to, like, the supermarket or the coffee shop or whatever, and, like, you're listening to music and it's like the music's just so good, and you go in and, like, you have a great conversation with some stranger, but then you might do the exact same thing another day. You're like, fuck, can't find a song I like. You go in, you're like, this guy's, you know, fat asshole, like, get out of the way. Like, you know, this person's taking too long.

Hey, annoyed.

But it's the exact same circumstance. It's just different energy in the moment.

Yeah. And there could be another factors that drove you there. Like I said, we can go back to sleep. It could go back to, you know, maybe someone was Maybe your child fell and was crying. Maybe your wife was mad at you. Maybe she was having a bad morning. Maybe your parent, something was going on. So your headspace is now in a sense of worry or something was, yeah, something changed you to be in that spot. And we have to check ourselves and be like, all right, how can I overcome it? You have to overcome things in your head. Yeah. Because otherwise happiness is so far away. So once you can overcome fears and realize, all right, everything's okay, yeah, I can, I can make my mind stop racing and think about something that's bothering me. Yeah, like try to think of nothing. Yeah, it's the hardest thing. Yeah, don't let your mind not think of anything. It's so difficult. Yeah, but once you can do it, let's say you want to do it to try to sleep. Yeah, you fall asleep instantly.

Yeah.

The second you stop thinking, yeah, it's just like you're—

you also feel incredible because all suffering and discomfort comes from— I mean, sometimes it's physical, but most of the time it's just the mental chatter, the judgments, the streams of 20 problems that are just circling in your head, creating a bad energy. It's like if you could just let that go, just— I mean, I've boiled it all down to like, life's about letting go. Yeah, that's like a derivative of all the things that we're talking about. Yeah.

Oh, 99% easier said than done.

Much easier said than done.

There's no question, you— everything will, will hit you in your mind, and depending on how you felt that day, you'll start thinking it through. Yeah. Or you'll let it go. And some days are harder because— right, right. I mean, I know I— every day is different. Yeah. And you just— because there's all these exterior factors, like I said. The part of the family and people around you, that rich part, sometimes isn't always perfect. There's— parents get older, they have ailments. Your kids, you just don't know what's happening.

Every— it's like we have, you know, all of our thoughts create neural pathways, synapses, right? And the more we do those things and have those thoughts, the stronger they get. They start as like a little spider web, and then they become a cable, and it's like a steel wire. The more you do it, the better it gets. So like I look at challenges as an opportunity because I've had enough challenges in life and business that I've overcome, and it always works out. And it never works out the way you expect it to, but it always works out better almost all the time. And having done that many times, now a challenge comes up in, in business where it used to be like, fuck, what are we gonna do, man? But my brain has been now flipped to like, nice, like something good to happen after this. I don't know what, But now I can solve— like, come through experience though. Like, people can listen to this and say, I understand that conceptually, but once you go through it 4, 5, 6, 10, 20 times, you start to— but I think the conceptual hearing of things like this is important for people to become aware, and then you'll go down that path when the opportunity comes up.

Yeah, you're— there's going to be so many challenges in life, which is how experience is created over time. And I used to say this when I was in my 20s, like, I wish they could teach experience. Yeah, like, it would just be so much easier to like not have the stresses because it— and you've been through it, like you just said, it's so easy to feel all that stress at a young age. And if you only knew, look, the walls— the world isn't ending. We're gonna, we're gonna solve this. Look at it as a look to it as a challenge, you're gonna solve it. You're gonna work hard, and the feeling of solving it just made you stronger. Yeah, makes you feel better. And then if it's a business thing or a family thing, it's just— you just build on it.

Yeah, there's another side to it. You don't know exactly when or how, but the other side does exist. 100%, always, 100% of the time.

Yeah, you'll— you'll figure it out. It's It's, uh, it's part of life. It's how you evolve. It's how you grow. The more you learn, it, it just puts you up another ladder. And when you can get there, when you start looking down it, you're like, wow, if I had known what I had known. Yeah. So this is kind of my thought process for whatever I teach my son or anything to my daughter. Or any new business idea I'm thinking about, okay, how can I take everything I've learned, all the mistakes, and everyone makes them, and now do something and we can skip all those mistakes.

Yeah.

Because we're not gonna let it happen 'cause we already know we've already done it.

I think that happens in business. That's why success compounds on itself.

100%.

That's like, it's very rare that someone first does something and it succeeds. Like you get the Mark Zuckerbergs or, you know, most of the time, plenty of failures on the way. There is some micro failures that you don't see. You only see the big wins. But you notice like people like Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Mark Cuban, like whatever they touch turns to gold. It's well because they had thousands of micro failures and the success, the confidence, the, the understanding of business processes, the network, you know, it becomes not how do I do this, but who, who I talk to.

Yeah.

Like, yeah. Becomes much easier to do things. We have to go through those trials and tribulations to become the person worthy of having that success.

Correct. And then with that success, everyone trusts you to— on whatever you're doing now. So they're all going to say, oh, love to do that with you. And then everyone's got this massive network now to make it happen a lot faster. Yeah. Lowest possible cost, you know, highest possible distribution in the shortest amount of time.

But even with all the knowledge, you like, at least for me, and you probably feel the same way, like, I still don't really know what I'm doing. I have an idea of what to do, but oftentimes I'm like, hmm, I got to just try some things. But like, you get the person on who's on social media, who's young, who hasn't had the financial success yet. They look at someone who has and they have this misconception that that person always knew what they were doing. But I don't know what I'm doing, so I can't do it. The truth is, you look at anyone and almost none of the time they know exactly what they're doing. You just gotta keep moving.

You, you have to keep moving. You experience will give you the best path to make decisions, but there's no, there's no guarantees and there's still gonna be fear of making the wrong decision just 'cause that's, it depends on your mentality, but you, you're gonna question, all right, A or B. And that's part of the rush though of doing something. And I go through these challenges all the time in my head of like, all right, I know the answer, but I now have to go through the 9 other scenarios and flush them out. Yeah. And I always end up back at the original. Yeah. But I can't help it.

I don't do that. I just make in completely fast and intuitive decisions all the time now.

Yeah. Well, that's great. And when it comes to doing certain things for me, it's not on small stuff, but like on major, okay, this is a major choice here, left or right, which way are we going to drive the business? And I'm like, wow, these are, I still have to flush it out. Like, it's— yeah, everyone's— everyone works differently in their mind, but that's huge that you can just go. It could be good, it could be bad, I don't know.

I'm— it's an experiment, you know.

I'm just more conservative that way where I'm like, all right, I know the answer, but I still want to make sure I recheck. Yeah, so that's just the reach.

You need people like you and you need people like me. I have people like you and you probably have people like me.

Yeah, I'm just— there are people who just run. Yeah. And there are people who, before they run, they're gonna warm it up.

Boxes.

Yeah, like, I'm gonna— I'm gonna stretch.

So talk about your, um, your career a little bit like, you know, I know that you manufacture products, but for people that don't know you at all, talk about your business.

So I started out in a family business doing— I had a grandfather and a father and a couple and two uncles. It was a stamping of metal buckles for shoes. Okay. And metal buckles for shoes. Yeah. So like Back in the day, um, women's shoes—

oh, what do you mean, like the dress shoes?

Yeah, they used to call them— you can't say it, you can't call it a Gucci buckle because Gucci owns the name. Ah, but all those horse bit buckles, which is basically a Gucci buckle, um, on men's shoes and women's shoes, there are a lot of stamped and die-casted buckles, and that was the business.

Gotcha.

And pretty niche.

Very nice.

Um, Rockton, Massachusetts, up to Maine, was the shoe manufacturing capital, okay, of the United States. You name it, from golf shoes to major high-end shoes, they were all made there. Florsheim, you know, all of them, okay? Probably even Gucci back in the day. I know it was in Italy, but you don't know where everything was being made back in the day. But in the U.S., it was Northeast. And when I had gotten into the— I graduated, uh, college at the University of Maryland, and I was, um, in a total quality management program in business. Um, really enjoyed it. Um, it was when the internet— Al Gore invented the internet.

Yeah.

And so I was at the generation of Yahoo, AOL.

Yeah.

Okay. And Netscape.

Okay.

Wasn't Internet Explorer, no Safari.

Yeah.

Okay. And no Google. Yeah. And so I had em— an email account and I decided to, uh, give it a shot. My brother was already there. He was a salesman and he had helped the company do these headwear buckles. That was his addition to the company. And the main business was the shoe buckles at that point and eyelets. And all kinds of, you know, shoe hardware. And I got there, I had to kind of figure it out. There was no formal training program. My uncle took me down to see an electroplater, gave me the 2-day crash course.

Yeah, did it.

Um, so I was fortunate. Um, I went to a trade show, uh, it had happened to be the Bobbin Show. It's where a lot of intimate apparel, uh, brands would go to find fabrics, metal trims, you name it.

Intimate apparel, like, like lingerie and—

yeah, and some sarongs and panties. Not that— no, no chains, no whips. No, that's more of, uh, like the whole Playboy, you know, that kind of genre.

That— yeah, that trade show might have been some more sex toys.

Yeah, no, I wasn't that fortunate.

Okay.

However, um, it was all for garments and we had a trade boot, we had a booth at the trade show and Rita Canis, never forget it, came to our booth. She was with Warnaco. Okay. Linda Wachner was the CEO. She was well known on Wall Street and Rita had come and she was looking for basic rings and slides that were nylon coated. We didn't nylon coat, but we could definitely make a ring or slider. It was for the shoulder strap of the bra. Okay. She came in, said she saw we had a D-ring that was nylon coated and that was being used on shoes. Men's dress shoes. Yeah.

Okay.

And she's like, can you make this ring and slide? And we're like, sure. So that was the first customer. We never made a ring or slide before for a bra. And the quantities to do this business were massive. Yeah. Bigger than we've experienced in the shoe industry or headwear. And we figured out we had a, we had a couple vendors to help do the finishing. We stamped the ring and slide. For 3 years, it was just flat out build every possible tool, mold, all the different shapes, all the different sizes. And from there, I was trying to learn how to sell. Like, I, there was again, no formal training. And I was fortunate to be mentored by Jamie Gardner, who was like a sales rep for us. And he took me all around New York. I would go every couple, every week or two. And he would, he wanted to teach me.

Yeah.

And he's like, I'm gonna show you how to work the room. I was like, what do you mean? He's like, when someone talks, just shut up and listen. Yeah.

Okay.

So, you know, being, I was like 22, 23, being young, I was like, all right, I have to like listen. And, and, and they would talk about their families, their kids. And you know, I'm in my twenties, like I, I haven't really figured out what's important.

Yeah.

What rich means, all that stuff. And I'm like, ugh, they're talking about their daughter. You know, I don't, so buy the freaking book.

Yeah.

I'm not interested in it. But after doing it for like, you know, a straight year, I mean, I am a road warrior constantly running to New York and he, he's taking us all around to Waco, Vanity Fair, Victoria's Secrets. I mean, all the big brands. I started— we talked about I'm recording. Yeah. So I'm remembering it. And, and so now I would show up and sometimes without Jamie, I'd be like, oh, Marianne, how's Jody doing? What's— and that's her daughter's name to this day. This is 20 years ago. Yeah, I already know. I still remember it. And she's like, oh, you know, she's doing this, she's doing that. I'm like, great, great. At first I didn't care. Yeah. I was just doing it to get the sale.

Yeah.

But something changed in me, and this was a huge part of my career. I started to give a shit. Yeah. So now they were becoming my friends. And that's when it dawned on me that selling, if you start, if you're, you're not selling a product, you're selling the relationship. That's how you get the sale at the end. If they like you, right? You're going to become an expert in it. Like I was, I became an expert in the products and all that for just being around it. But because, and I learned this from Jamie, but he never told me, hey, this is what, how you sell. Yeah. But this was a very valuable lesson for me. All right. I didn't care, but now I do. And now they're my friends. I wasn't just working the room, I was seeing my friends. Yeah. So it just, it was like an epiphany.

Yeah.

And the sales came with it.

Yeah.

From Warnaco on, it just was a waterfall, and the business evolved to what was probably 85% shoe eyelets and rivets and buckles and 15% headwear buckles to like 65%, 70% intimate apparel hardware. Wow. Within like 3 to 4 years. And at the time, everyone who was manufacturing in Mexico and D.R. and the Caribbean, they were moving it to China. So that was a turning point in the career. And I, we were now selling everyone abroad and domestically. So I was building relationships now in Asia. And that's when I started. And then I, I went into making, actually making the bra. And this is a very interesting story because of the relationship I created because I started, they were my friends. Yeah. So I was, I went, I drove down to Maiden Farm one day and I, unfortunately Jamie was no longer with us because he was sales. He was a sales rep for another company and that owner was like, hey, you need to, I want you with me only. So he had to cut ties. Still friends with him to this day. Best mentor of my life. And I'll never forget it. Marion Lysio in Maiden Farm, AO New Jersey, fabulous golf course. The town is still stuck in the '70s, by the way. It's this, it's a kind of an odd thing to me. Yeah.

Go there.

It's like going back in time. Wonderful people. I walk in, she, she, this is a bra. Yeah. Matthew, hey, how you doing? I'm like, oh, great, great. You know, how's Jody? This is Jared Goetz. How do you, oh, her daughter. She's like, we really need help with this bra. Do you know anyone who could make it? I had just been to Asia 2 weeks before. And was approached by one of the factories that I was already selling. And they go, listen, we're leaving here, we're starting our own business. We want a partner. You're selling all the brands we make for. Will you do it with us? And I'm like, oh, I don't know how to make a bra. What are you talking about? I'm a metal guy. Yeah. They're like, we'll teach you. Just think about it. Well, two week, I get back two weeks later, I'm in Maidenform. Marianne hands me this bra. Can you make, and we said, can you make it? I go, I think I know someone. Let me check. She cuts it in half. I send it over. I send it to Larry, who's the one who approached me, and he knocked it off in like 4 days. Yeah. FedExed it right back. At the time, I think the price was like $585. It's costing us like $250.

Yeah.

Like back then margins were really wide. It's changed by the way, to this date, whoever's listening. It's no longer that. Um, but at the time it was, it was migrating from, you know, Mexico to Asia. So there was a, there was a difference in cost. And I drive right back to Maidenform, run into Marianne right away. Marianne, hey, how you are?

I got the bra.

She's like, oh wow. She's like, refresh my memory. Did I give you this? I'm like, yes. I'm like, You cut it in half. She's like, oh yeah, right, right. She was like, hold on a second. She leaves. And I'm like, oh, did I do something wrong? Like, did I copy it? Is she mad? You know, not knowing. She's never abruptly left. Within like 2, 3 minutes, the president of the company walks down, who I'd never met. Maurice Resnick, who ended up being CEO. Great guy. Another good friend. Looks at me, he goes, How'd you do this? Like, what do you mean? He goes, how'd you make this bra? He goes, what did we give you? Marion cut the center, unhook the hook and eye. He goes, no, no, did we give you a tech pack? A tech pack is what the fabric is, all the material is, and everything.

Yeah.

How to stitch it. The G print. Yeah. Sew book stuff. I'm like, I had no idea what a tech pack was. So you gotta fake it till you make it, right? And, uh, I'm like, no, just got the bra cut in half. He goes, wow, how much? I'm like, $5.75. He goes, wow. He's like, you know, we wanna sell this to Walmart. Our current supplier can't keep up. How fast can we get 600,000 of them? What? In my mind I'm going ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. I'm like, I don't know the answer. That was my, my, I always knew if I didn't know the answer, I don't know the answer, but I had a whole sunset sunrise policy in my, like I would give to customers like, I'll have it at sunrise.

Yeah.

Okay. It'd be the overnight. He's like, okay, just let us know, bub, you know, as soon as possible. Let him know, you know, we needed 3 months, but we have to, you know, we need a lot of commitments, we have to buy materials, et cetera, et cetera. He goes, okay. He says, uh, um, I want you to fly to Korea and meet the guy who's making it now who can't keep up. And then we're going to give you an order for 600,000. So lo and behold, I fly to Korea. He shows it to us. We kind of knew how to make it because these guys have been doing it for like 20 years already. Long story short. For 5 years. 5 years. One bra. One bra. We sold upwards of 1.5 to 2 million bras a month.

Wow.

For 5 years. It was damn the craziest run in the history of my career.

Unexpected.

Completely unexpected. And at the time, I was, it was a little bit of, family businesses are tough. Yeah. So I was looking to maybe leave the family business and this was a really good opportunity where the family business could be, would continue on and I would go do something else. So I did it. I left and went and made Brass.

Wow.

Yeah. And I didn't have to sell anyone else. For 5 years. Yeah. I mean, we chartered a 747 cargo plane during the quota when there was quotas put on. I don't know if you know about what a quota is, but yeah, there's only a limited amount of goods of a specific category that the country is allowed to export.

Gotcha.

China was restricted and we, 'cause it was, the quota ended and then the, the first of the year starts again. So we had so many containers, we chartered a 747 cargo plane. I think back then it was like $750,000 one way from China to Maidenform. Wow. It was amazing.

How many bras can you fit in a 747?

Uh, I think it's, I think it's almost like 10 full truckloads.

So that's—

back then we were shipping We were shipping Costco for Maidenform. We get orders of like 2,000 pallets. A lot of time. We would have a separate factory. All they did was stitch and pack in these special plastic containers and tape 'em up a certain way. 'Cause customers were going to Costco and rip 'em open and they didn't want that.

Yeah.

So like we were just going through this evolution with Maidenform for 5 years.

So you essentially were just at this trade show because you were just kind of exploring, you're doing your thing, you're learning sales, and you met someone—

totally green— that—

so this whole thing just came out essentially out of— like, you never could have imagined that happening.

Never. I was originally an accounting major. Yeah. Who was bored by accounting. I would, I would basically just cram for the test and do a study group. And I could do, and I would get Bs or As. So I would daydream in class. I daydream forever in classes. And I just teach myself and read the textbook. So no one taught me how to sell. It was on the job. And I learned from Jamie and I just got it. Now you talk about the headspace and we talked about making, you know, if you're in this state of mind, Good things happen. Magnetic things, right? This is a classic example. Oh yeah. I learned to be there. I was forced to listen to them.

Yeah.

And then I realized I gave a shit and good things happened.

Yeah.

And I would never have had that opportunity had I not done that in the early times.

Yeah.

And I fought it originally.

It's experience.

Had I known that, I'd be rushing the first in line to go meet as many people as I could, going to see people, right? Yeah. But no one teaches you. Yeah. So it's kind of strange how you make your own luck. I, at the end of the day, you talk about believing in God, religion. At the end of the day, it's about being a good human. That's why I believe it was created, but that's what it's about. Yeah. Be a good human. Yeah, things will start sticking to you that are good and bad. People will try to take advantage of you, ask you for things.

100%.

But if you just go along the right path and people feel it, they gravitate to you.

100%.

And I feel we met that way.

100%.

Am I right? Like, there's an energy. Yeah, it's about the energy. That you give off by being a good human, laughing, being fun, being serious when you need to be serious. Yeah. And the journey is still here for sure, still going for sure.

Yeah, I've had so many relationships that were made that were like, how did that even just happen? Hey, crazy people. Yeah, especially more recent in life. And I couldn't agree more. So how many bros have you made now?

You know, I never counted. I do know if you look at like hard, I have to do some math, but if you look like hardware, I mean like rings and slides that go on bras versus the bras we were making, and I ended up going back into the metal business too. Yeah. So after I left the family business, they ended up wanting to retire and buy it back. So I'm still, I'm in both again. Yeah. And we would ship upwards. We'd ship at least like 500 million rings and slides a year. Wow. At minimum. Divided by 4 is 1 bra. Yeah. So you're talking hundreds of millions of bras and like the underwires that go in the bras.

So almost a billion bras.

It has to be like manufacturing of bras. We were doing 1.5 to 2 million a month for like 15 years plus. Another 5. It's, it's, it's, look, we, we evolved the, the business because Bangladesh got really into it and they, that's where like kind of all the Walmart, Target business went. So I mean, the number's massive. It's, you're talking in, yeah, it's, yeah, yeah, you're right. It's a massive number. Hundreds of billions. Yeah. Yeah.

So there's a new chance that someone listening has worn a bra that you've made.

I've touched many of them. Yeah. There's something we made in the plant. There's 100%. That's what I always— that was my line back in the day. I'm like, there's some way I believe something we made, whether it's a metal product or a garment that has somehow been in contact with you. Yeah. So whether it's on a shoe or a boot, a hat, a pair of jeans, a military uniform, I believe something mattress.

So at least half the people in the country have been in contact with something you've made.

I believe so.

Yeah.

If I was to, I mean, if you do the math, I mean, well, the only thing I would say is like, there's, we kind of live in this corridor. Um, that's not like rural America.

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. We're definitely in that corridor. Right. So I don't know if you've traveled in other parts, like being a manufacturer, I've been in like manufacturing towns where The only place to eat is like Pizza Hut, Sonic, McDonald's, and it's like a Motel 6.

Yeah, I've been to those places before.

I'm not sure they have been in, unless maybe they did because they bought something at Walmart, Target back in the day, but I don't think they're, oh, they served in the military. So we do all the hardware on the boots. So Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, every boot has hardware made in the United States of America.

So safe to say probably at least half the people in the country have most likely given us something.

Yes.

That you—

I think so.

It's pretty interesting.

It is. It's a cool feeling.

That's really cool.

Yeah, because you're, you're touching people's lives. They don't know it, but it's a good feeling. Like, we're doing good too. Like, we, we're very proud of the Department of Defense. Yeah. And all that work we do. Yeah. That's pretty mean. I mean, there's no one who gives up more.

You're building any contracts?

So we're second tier. The first tier is the people who make the boots, and then we're the ones behind them.

Gotcha.

So we always say we're the brand behind the brand. Gotcha.

Makes sense.

Yeah.

So where do you see the future of manufacturing going now that there's, you know, back when you got started with the bras, you had a relationship in China. Someone needed something, but now it's very easy for people to find.

I'll tell you exactly where it's going. It's something that I have a major pulse on because it's If you don't stay ahead of this, you will quickly go out of business. Yeah. As the political, geopolitical issues, presidents change. So what do you have right now? You have China that's asserting itself and it's gotten more expensive every year. Like they have developed a middle class. Yep. No one wants to be in China anymore because they're concerned with what, what they'll do one day. Yeah. And decide, oh, we don't want to supply this material that— like, they— you don't know.

Yeah.

Um, so things have migrated from China to— originally it went to Thailand, and then it went— it's gone to Vietnam. Now Vietnam's basically China's little brother, so they're a little China.

Yeah.

So, and there's not enough people.

Yeah.

So now it's migrating, you know, Cambodia. Sri Lanka was a big haven, but They've had some unrest and they've got currency issues. So now it's Indonesia's gotten really populated. India is a massive hub, Cambodia, but it's starting to go to Africa.

Really?

Absolutely. So the trans— the logistics are a problem. Yeah. On the flip side, on this part of the world, it's Mexico, is starting to come back alive. You'll see more there with the Trump administration. They're going to push heavy for domestic manufacturing. So we've seen a massive uptick domestically, which is good for us. But it's, it's tough to— minimum wage keeps going up. And, you know, I don't want to get into all this minimum wage talks, but the reality is you don't need to set minimum wage. Yeah, the market will set the market, will set it. Okay, period. And we have to find ways to automate. So where it's going right now, you're going to see a lot more onshoring. You're seeing it in high tech with semiconductors. For high labor-intensive things, you will not see it come onshore, right? Or unless it's robotics, right? For garments, like cars, no problem. Robotics, right? But for like heavy labor, shoes and boots for the military will always be here. Why? It's required. It's a Berry Amendment. You're not going to see Nike start setting up in— it's not happening. However, where are they going to go? They're going to stick to— they're going to— as they pulled out of China, it's going to stay in Vietnam. It's going to eventually migrate to Africa. Yeah. Not today, but you're going to see this continue because the more China asserts itself, the more and more they're going to pull out. Now, what recently just happened, and this is And Walmart got ahead of this. Victoria's Secret, all them got ahead of it. Everyone wants out of China in a massive way. Why? Trump tariffs. So every brand is— knows if it comes from China, he may do 10% more, 40% more. They can't sell the product like that.

Yeah.

They're gonna have to raise the price. It— and their competitor who's already outside of China. Doesn't have to do that. So you're, you're, you're— there's an existential threat to your brand, right, if you don't exit fast. So that's what's happening.

So setting up manufacturing for things that are mainly in China that are going to move outside of China is a big opportunity right now.

Massive. People have done it. We've done it. It's a massive undertaking though. You— every culture is different. The Chinese are super hardworking. And they— this is how I've— this is, this is the best way I describe it. I've been saying this forever because I watched it. Yeah. When you go into a Chinese factory, they walk like they're on hot coals. So if you would imagine someone on hot coals, they're not walking.

Yeah, they're going to—

like, they're working hard.

I've been, I've been as well, many times. So, you know, yeah.

Now you go into Thailand, you go into—

not the hot—

India, Vietnam, a little close to China.

Yeah.

There's no hot coals. Yeah. And they're just casually walking. Yeah. So it's a massive difference, um, on how they all work.

But, and if you have a company and you like— Tesla is the most valuable car company in the world now, not because they make the best cars in the world, because they have the best manufacturing in the world. They invested billions and billions of dollars into building manufacturing plants and the gigafactories for the batteries.

Yes.

Domestically, for the most part.

And he owns all the dealerships, right? There's no middleman. Yeah. Brilliant, brilliant concept.

Huge undertaking.

Massive, highly robotic. Um, cut certain ones out. Do you know he over automated and then realized— I give that guy a lot of respect. Forget the fact that he's— he doesn't care about money. Yeah, to him it's all about efficiencies and getting it right. The money comes when you do that, right? He realized— he, he just challenges everyone. All right, time study. Who's faster, the robot or the human? Yeah. And that's what he does. He's, he's scrapped tons of robots realizing it's faster to use a human and cheaper. Yeah. So I give the guy so much credit as, you know, as so brilliant, but the basics are there. He's not overthinking manufacturing. Yeah. He gets it. He, it's trial and error test.

So are there any specific industries that you think would benefit the most for, you know, building some kind of manufacturing domestically now?

Benefit the most, I think. For sure. If you're looking at like cars, you're going to need to be domestic in this country because you're— there's protectionism going on here. They're, they're trying to protect our economy and be less reliant overseas. And they forced all these other brands in. Um, I think the biggest thing long, long-term is going to be food.

Oh yeah.

I think so. Because that's like everyone's security. Everyone's going to think now about what it takes to live. Yeah. Cause everyone's worried that some country is going to be in war or shut us off. So any essentials in life, I think are the most important. We're always going to be able to get a garment from any country.

Yeah.

It's not, it's not that hard.

Right. You're going to give up too many clothes anyway.

It's not super essential that people need to buy new clothes.

I don't need to buy another thing in my life for clothing. I'll be fine.

I buy the same thing. I have a uniform. I'm wearing it. I wear blue.

Was that a white t-shirt up here? Yeah, fun.

You get it. But it's like, I wear the same thing. Yeah. Like, creature habit. But that's what I would say. Like, essentials are going to be the most important. I'm not in that industry, but you know, obviously like what they're doing with chips, what they're doing with, you know, oil, better for you stuff. Um, no, I'm sorry, I'm, I'm talking like AI, all the chips, all stuff. Get oil and chips. Yeah, I know, I'm talking like, you know, like the NVIDIAS and stuff. Like, they're gonna want— you need to onshore that because of all— everyone's worried about security. Yeah, right. So, but in terms of like basic things for people, it's to me, it's food, which is mainly here anyway, but you'd be surprised. We import a ton of stuff. It's more than you think. Yeah. And then it's added into the food recipe here. Right. So, you know, you want to be that big, you want to be Cargill and, you know, these big guys who are supplying the foodstuffs as everyone's got to eat.

What about for the little guy, right? That's trying to get into this world, maybe brokering deals, supply chain, you know, making relationships with suppliers in other countries. What kind of advice would you have to someone that wants to get into this industry?

Manufacturing or like what I do? Yeah. You know, the first thing you need to do is learn and get a job in whether it's textiles, whether it's in metals and try to become an expert because it's not hard to, to do it. You just have to, you have to be an expert, number one, be able to make friends, number two. And if, if I was to do it all over, it's a little hard when it's B2B, but there's this massive reach now through TikTok and Instagram and LinkedIn. I would just be more selling myself and trying to soak it all up like a sponge. Yeah. And be like an ambassador of like what's relevant. I would go for trends. Yeah. I think the ideal way is to pick what you, let's say it's denim or if it's intimate apparel, I would try to be trying to find every possible trend and talking about it.

Yeah.

Whether it's like we're doing right now on a podcast, whether it's posting online, and now you're the leader. And the spokesperson leading the way, yeah, people are going to come to you. So you just have to figure out your alliances on what you're going to make or sell. You're certainly going to have to sell for someone to start because it's a lot of money to set up these plants. It's not easy. And if you can do that, you'll back your way into manufacturing one day, or you may never even have to. But I do know what we do. You need your own factory because the world is flat. Anyone can sell anyone anymore. It used to not be that way, right? Margins are thinner. You got to be, you got to be on your A-game. You have to be an expert. And then the second thing will be to create your own IP. You need to find that white space. Yeah. What doesn't exist? Just like Apple did it. Yeah. Okay. What's the solution? Like, you need to be a solutions-based thinker. So One of the major things you have to do is listen to your client. What's their pain point? Bring them the solution in a product. Yeah. And that's your win.

Yeah.

You'll, you'll blossom. And that's essentially kind of how— I don't think that's ever changed. Yeah. Like you, anyone, if you want to go into any industry, if you don't come up with solutions, no one's going to just buy from you unless you're just flat out like Shane and you're just selling so cheap. Yeah, that, yeah, people buy because they can throw it away. Yeah, they don't like it. Yeah. So that to me is the way to do it. IP, become an expert, utilize the tools that are right there in front of you, especially TikTok. That is emerging in a massive way, and you can quickly monetize your business through that.

Yeah, unexpected opportunities will come your way if you get out there. Any, any last words to a listener that you'd like to share?

Last words? Just control. You're in control of your own thoughts and decisions and own them. And never think you figured it out because it will evolve. And just when you think you got it, there's something else. So be open-minded and smile and opportunities will await. Enjoy the ride. That's it. Let's go.

How are you, brother?

Yeah, thank you.

Appreciate it. We usually shake your hand, but we're so far away, so—

I know, I don't know why it's so long distance. Yeah, it was fun. Enjoyed it. Thank you. Thanks for having me.