Golf, CrossFit & Mental Toughness | Pierre-Henri Soero

Energy is confidence. So I would say you, you see when you play, there's a shift in momentum. It's all about momentum.

Learning how to visualize and let go is, is an art, but I also think like a huge foundation of it is, is the discipline that you put in the work to build the confidence so you could visualize that getting in your own way.

Remarkable athlete known for his successful transitions between elite-level sports. Pro golfer, CrossFit Games athlete, world championship triathlete, high-performance trainer, Mr. Standard, Pierre-Henri Sauro. That event going in, I knew it was going to be bad. I knew it was going to be bad, so I prepped myself that the pain is going to arrive quick. I'm going to have to fucking deal with it. Yeah, well, I dealt with it. I pushed, I pushed, but I was— I mean, the paramedics were right next to me. I was laying down in the After the event, I mean, I couldn't see straight, tunnel vision, pretty much lost vision. Wow. Heart rate is maxed out and you gotta keep squatting.

Yeah.

Crowd is going crazy and you go back to the warmup area or cooldown area and I mean the paramedic says like, hey, you're not doing well. And you know if you go there, hey, yeah, you look like shit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're not doing it, et cetera.

Yeah, right.

So you gotta deal with it. That was the hardest thing.

What's up guys, welcome to the show. This one's really fun. I'm actually interviewing a very good friend of mine, Pierre Soro, otherwise known as Mr. Standard. Check him out. This guy is a freak athlete in totally different domains such as golf, triathlons, CrossFit Games, karate, spearfishing, and I wanted to dive deep and understand how does he drive himself through these different domains and compete at such a high level. So stay tuned for this one. If you are on the verge of trying to get better, get stronger, get more disciplined, there's a lot of insight here that can really help you out. I hope you enjoy. How much does— like, obviously playing at a professional level in golf, PGA Tour level, International Tour level— how much does your energy affect the game?

Huge. I think it's all right. Energy is confidence. So I would say you, you see when you play, there's a shift in momentum. It's all about momentum, right?

Yeah.

You, you play golf, you, you know, and that's related to energy as well. So if you let the momentum dictate your energy, oh, you can spiral down real quick, or you can go the other way around too. So it's huge.

So how do you, how do, like, when I'm golfing, If I start playing badly, I start getting in my head. It's, I'm always like, this is a test to try to get back in the game, but I'm not very good at it. Is that something that as a golfer over the years you learn how to kind of snap out of it and get back in the zone?

Yes. And I'm still learning it. I'm still dealing with it. That's why I work with a sports psychologist.

Yeah.

And, um, it comes down to, it's like the less you try, The better, the, the more you can give in, give up, like a holding on, on the control.

Yeah.

The better your game is going to be. And it's very difficult when the expectation of being a scratch golfer, making the cut, winning a tournament, keeping your tour card or whatever, it's very difficult to let go of that control.

So is it something like, for example, if you're about to play in a major PGA event and it's like high stakes and you really wanna win it. Are you letting go of control before the round, like weeks before the round? How are you thinking about it, mentally preparing for it?

I think it's a lot of meditation. A lot of guys use it. Visualization, meditation, manifestation, which is huge. And I would say, so for me, I work on a weekly basis with my sports psychologist. And we always project ourselves to the next event or whatever. Could be an event, could be a meeting, whatever it is. And we already kind of visualize the positive way of doing it through breathing exercises, obviously visualization. And it puts me, so I'm under some type of beta state, I meditate, and then it throws like a story. We have a whole story for like an hour and we go through the round. Oh, Pierre. Golf cart is around. Now you gotta hit the tee shot. What are you gonna do? Routine, this, this. So it's, you have to prep yourself. Yeah. At the end of the day, it's preparation, right? Preparation, like everything else.

I think that, and that happens in, in all areas of life. Yeah. Like when I was, um, you know, selling my company.

Mm-hmm.

For probably 6 months, every morning I'd go out, I'd do my walk, and at the end of it, I would, I would just walk as if it was, as if it was done. I was imagining like, you know, hugging the team, high-fiving the guys, flicking open the bank account, seeing the payment come in.

Yeah, baby.

And, uh, and And it's crazy because like nobody in the world has the answers of how that stuff works, right? Like if you're human, your mind cannot really comprehend how it works, but it does work.

It does work.

It does work. If you can feel something in the moment, it usually creates the outcome you want. But I think a lot of people lack the confidence, so they doubt themselves. If you're trying to visualize something, but in the back of your mind, you're saying I'm a piece of shit or I'm not good enough, correct? You can't really visualize it, correct?

Or if you let Okay, you visualize for an hour a day, 30 minutes, 15 minutes, and then the other, let's say you do an hour, 23 hours of the day, you in the trash can.

Yeah.

Not gonna work, right? But over time it works. But I think it comes down to, let's go back to what you said like a minute ago. In golf, not in business, in golf, if I look at all my rounds since I turned pro in 2007 after college, my best results came When one, I didn't care, like literally didn't care why I didn't care. That's why we gotta analyze. Didn't care because I didn't have to prove something to someone, right? Or didn't care because I didn't have to impress someone. So there's no control. You let go of the outcome. And the other one, well, that one didn't work in Morocco, but normally when I'm sick and I play golf, I play pretty well because I'm not focusing on the game and the result. I'm just focusing on surviving.

Yeah. Which is obviously one shot at a time.

Right. But this didn't work this time.

But yeah, like I've only played in one tournament and it was, uh, the, the club championship in Texas when I, when I was living there. And that was back when I was like a 10 handicap. So I wasn't as good, but I was still, you know, I could still shoot below 80 and, you know, in the 70s often, not all the time. But the tournament was coming up and I cared so much about it. And I'd never, I'm not a professional golfer. Like it was more of a hobby for me. And I was on the range for like an hour before trying to dial it in, you know, really. And the first tee shot, out of bounds off the right.

Fuck.

All right, now I'm hitting 3 off the tee. Second one, into the trees, dropping. Shooting 5 onto the green. Uh, I go to putt for bogey, I miss by a foot, and I'm just like— and I just kicked the ball away because I was like 1 foot away.

Yeah.

And the guy's like, oh no, you need to get that in. So then I had to go, I went up and down from my golf cart. I went up and down for an 8 on the first hole.

Yeah.

And now I'm like, there's no good getting out of this now.

Uh-uh.

But I think like, it's such a good lesson about life because there's so many things in life that you want to achieve, that you want to do. You want, you know, you want to have a certain type of life while you're here in this existence that you have.

Mm-hmm.

So learning how to visualize and let go is, is an art, but I also think like a huge foundation of it is, is the discipline that you put in the work to build the confidence so you could visualize without getting in your own way.

Yes. I mean, this, I think it's a puzzle, right? It's a puzzle. I still try to figure it out. I mean, I'm better than 5 years ago. I'm better than 10 years ago, but there's some days you still like, you're not there mentally, right?

Yeah.

Everybody has those days. So then that's when you rely on your discipline, rely on your being consistent. Um, and just not listening too much your emotions, right? Or your, hey, I'm tired, or I'm sad today, or this and that. You can't let that affect the, the plan, right?

How often do you get up and like be like, ah, I don't really feel like, you know, getting after it today?

In a week? Yeah. 7 days? 'Cause I train every day.

Yeah. Uh, I would say like the moment you open your eyes and you're like, versus, 'cause there's, there's a big difference between when you first open your eyes and you're in bed still. Versus like 5 minutes later when you're out of bed and like making a coffee or something.

Mm-hmm.

I'm like, do you still have that voice in your head when you first open your eyes where you're like, oh man, I'm tired and like, I don't wanna get outta bed?

Oh yeah. Every day. But I never think about going back to bed or sleeping longer. I'm, I'm a morning guy, so I get up, but I would say 3 times out of the week, 3 days out of 7, I'm like, ugh.

Even when you get outta bed, you're like, mm, tired. Oh yeah.

Even like, I'm like, uh, maybe I'm gonna take it easy today. Yeah. Maybe I'm gonna do one session today.

Yeah.

Or maybe No, I always train. I don't know.

And then how often do you actually break? Never.

Never. Rarely. I'm sick. We have to catch a flight, uh, whatever. We're somewhere.

Yeah. Then very rarely.

No, no, I don't miss.

So on those days when you're like, oh shit, like, I, you know, I'm gonna take it easy today and then you do it anyway.

Yeah.

Do you always, do you always, are you always happy you did it?

Oh, 100%. But it's almost like I'm just going through the motion. And do it, it's like almost like there's nobody home up there.

Yeah.

I'm just put my shoes and today was a bike, then a bike. There's no like, should I bike? And the back and forth between, let's just say the good Pierre and the bad Pierre, or the positive one, negative one, the back and forth doesn't, there's not much going on up there.

Yeah.

So it's kind of just going through the motion.

You've basically just commanded your body to do the thing. It's like in meditation, like when you first start meditating, like Your mind's like, ah, 5 minutes, I'm good. Oh, let's get up. Oh, we should think about this. And it's like, no, we're staying here. Yeah. We're staying. It's a consistent battle up there.

Yeah, exactly. And there's not, not, not much of that going on. I feel the feeling of not want to do something. Yeah. I get those feelings. But then after that, it's just kind of going through the motion.

But most people get that feeling and then they give into the feeling.

That I don't understand. I'm still trying. I have a couple of clients that I train and I sometimes when I say, hey, I cheated this weekend or I'm drinking again, or this or that. I asked them, I said, what's going on in your head when, when you at the restaurant and you have the menu in front of you and you've been doing so good or whatever, or no alcohol, whatever. And at what point do you just give in and like, ah, fuck it. And then just, you just start, what's the trigger?

Yeah.

I don't understand. I don't get it. Yeah. Like, uh, peer pressure. Okay. Well, you're not 12, you're 40. Yeah. Like, what are you?

Yeah.

Uh, what is it like? You, you, you, you can't control your emotion and I don't know the answer to that. It's weird.

Yeah. It's, it's, uh, I think it's a lack of, like, I think the longer you, you can have a streak of keeping promises to yourself, the stronger that muscle gets.

Yeah. There's like a physical muscle that you did back in the day.

That's why I love something like 75 Hard because it's like, all right, the plan is here.

Yeah.

And if you fail at any point of the plan, you're starting back from day one. So it's not a debate. It's not, eh, should I do it?

Should I not do it?

It's like, no, I'm doing it.

Yeah.

It's gonna, it might suck, but I'm just gonna do it anyway. Yeah.

I think that's the, yeah. I've been doing 365 times many years.

Yeah.

And then after.

But there is a difference between, you know, I'm doing great. Here's my plan. I show up at the restaurant. Eh, what should I do? Versus Saturday, I'm gonna do whatever I want every week. Right. Okay. There's a difference there. It's like there's no debate. And that, that doesn't mean you have to go off the deep end every Saturday. You can, And they, but if it's part of the plan, it's better for some people.

They need that.

Yeah.

So they can stay balanced or whatever. Or maybe they, let's say we're talking nutrition and calories, maybe they plan out their week. You can plan out your week and your calorie intake during the week so that on Saturday, let's say you need 3,500 calories to lose a pound, right? 3,500 per week in a deficit. That's 500 a day. You lose roughly a pound.

3,500 deficit. Per week to lose a pound. Yes.

Okay. Yeah. And so that comes down to 500 a day, right?

Yeah.

So let's say they do, excuse me, let's say they do some type of, okay, on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, I know I'm gonna go Saturday, I'm gonna go have fun with my friend. That's how I think they should do it. I'm gonna have those beers and I'm gonna have that alcohol. I can calculate the calories. I'm gonna eat my lasagna that I'm, that I enjoy, blah, blah, blah. This is the calories for it. Then you can plan out your day. Yeah. I'm sorry, your week, your days. And so that at the end of the week you still didn't go over.

Yeah.

I think that's the way they should do it. But then people said, what's the fun in life there? What? And then after it comes down to priorities, what, you know what I mean?

It's weird. I think that that question's very easy to answer. It's, it's, there's short-term pleasure and there's long-term joy. Like, yes, yes, you do the things and refrain from the short-term pleasure. You build a version of yourself that enjoys life more.

100%.

Like, if you build a version of you that feels the way you feel stepping into the world, you feel better than a different parallel universe where maybe you're 300 pounds and you just do all the short-term pleasures. You're gonna feel like shit. You're gonna have no confidence. You're not gonna show up to conversations and go deeper with people because you're so self-conscious about yourself.

Correct.

So the fun in life is the game of life. It's, it's learning yourself. It's pushing yourself. It's growing into the best version of yourself.

I agree with you.

That's kind of the point of life is, is learning.

Uh, 100%. But for some people, I think, I don't know what it is. It just, and it sometimes I give up on try to understand.

Yeah.

As a trainer. Yeah. You know, I mean, because it's so simple, right?

Like it's, you're saying anyone can lose a pound a week.

Yeah.

If they cut 3,500 calories a week, which is 500 per day.

Yes.

It's math.

This is math. It's calories in, calories out. Super easy. Yeah. But people make it so complicated because I, I don't know, life, I heard the excuse of lifestyle, busy work, this, that, and that could be legit excuse, but they just don't plan. I, I mean, if you, even if you go eat out at this same restaurant, hey, yeah, I can meal prep. I'm eating at the same restaurant every, uh, every day at lunch with my coworkers.

Yeah.

Well, look at the menu, do something there, figure out the calories at night. You do some research, you know what you're gonna eat in the morning, two snacks done. Yeah.

But I think it's because a lot of people are, are in a consistent state of reaction.

Yeah.

Like they're reacting to their reality as opposed to proactively planning out their reality.

Mm-hmm.

Like if you, if you know that you just need to cut 3,500 calories per week, mm-hmm, you could sit down on a Sunday. For 15 minutes.

Yeah.

10 minutes, right? Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Breakfast, lunch, dinner, possibly dessert on Saturday if you want.

Yeah, exactly.

ChatGPT.

Yeah.

Give me a plan for, for this many calories.

So easy.

Yeah. It's, it's, it's not complicated. I don't think it is, but people overcomplicate. I also think like the, like society overcomplicates it because there's a whole market for things like for weight loss pills and for And for supplements and all this stuff, it like, it's kind of good for it.

Weight loss peptides and semaglutide and, um, what's the other one?

Uh, yes.

Theracruptide, whatever. All of them.

What, what's your thoughts on semaglutide?

If you're 600 pounds and you need a boost.

Yeah.

You know, 600 Pound Life.

Yeah.

Fuck, I hate fat people. This is 600 Pound Life. Then I get it. Yeah. Hey, some people need to go to rehabs.

Yeah.

Hey, they're good for you.

Yeah.

Some people need to find God. Cool. Whatever needs to get you going.

Yeah.

You need that? Yes. But when I see people that need to lose 20 pounds, they know what I have to do. Yeah. They know they have to hit the gym and eat clean and cut the alcohol, whatnot. And they're like, oh, I want semaglutide to lose weight because they want the easy fix.

Yeah.

They want it easy.

Yeah.

Then they realize by doing that they're losing muscle mass too. Yeah.

And the shit, the easy path is not the best path. Like when you pick a hard path and stick to it, you transcend into a better version of yourself in every single area of life. Like I typically do 75 Hard once a year or like around that, right? Like we're, 'cause we all slip. Maybe not you. I slip sometimes. I'll say me, right? And most people like slip. Yeah.

Yeah.

Very rarely. Occasionally.

I go to dinner.

Once every 6 years. Yeah.

Get a steak and that's it.

Yeah. Like when I moved to Florida, I, uh, in Texas, we had a gym in my garage. There was a nature trail behind my house. Yeah, I had my running route. I had my personal trainer who came 3 days a week. I was like, that was just my life. And I was like in great shape. And then when I moved to Florida, I didn't have the trail, I didn't have the gym in my house, and I didn't have the trainer. And I was kind of like trying to find my way, like, okay, I need a trainer, I need this. And I was like, eh, it's not a priority. I gotta figure out life. And then I slipped for a little bit, probably like Call it a year until I met you. Mm-hmm. And we all slip, but I, when I, when I'm in that state, it's like I show up to different areas of life as a worse version of myself. I show up to work, you know, if I'm doing a call for the whole company, right? Like my energy's different. If I'm having a conversation with my wife, you know, there, there's so many things that it affects when you take the easy route that people don't realize. They only look at the result, which is the weight loss.

Yeah.

Okay, semiglutide gets me the result.

It's like a virus, a cancer. Yeah. Yeah.

But what are the other things that you're gonna get out of actually choosing the hard path and sticking to it? There's a tremendous amount of benefit from that, but most people never actually do it, so they don't have the validation of doing it so that they, it's hard for them to convince themselves to do it.

And then they, they, they, they start doing it for a day or two and they don't see the result. Of course it's gonna take longer and then they get not depressed, but they get discouraged.

Yeah. And it goes a little by little too, like. I know for me when I slip on something, maybe it's not fitness or, you know, things that are for my health. Like for example, stupid example, I got this, actually Matt told me about this thing that you can basically like put stem cells on your face and it makes you look younger. And it's this little thing you have to like mist on your face every night. It takes like 2 minutes.

I remember.

Yeah. And so I got it and I did it for like 15 days in a row. And then I was really tired one night and I went to Madeline, I'm like, I'm not doing my face mist thing tonight. And she's like, well, if you thought about it, you have to do it. It's like, it's one thing if you forgot, but if you think about it and you're consciously not doing it, then it's going to be a lot easier to convince yourself tomorrow to not do it. And then you're just going to slip off.

100%.

It's like what I learned from my wife, which was actually really powerful, is if I know I need to do something and I think about it, I must do it.

You have to do it.

It's one thing to forget. And okay. You remember the next day you get back on the train. But once you give that ego like a little bit of room, it's so funny you say that because I'm the same way.

I go a little bit on a tangent with training. So you ask me in the morning, I wake up, I always, last time you say, where do you get those workouts?

Yeah.

ChatGPT? No, I don't. It's my head. And so I wake up while I eat breakfast. I know what muscle group I'm supposed to work and I come up with a workout. If I come up with a workout in my head, like you just say, if you give the thought, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna do this, this, this, this, this. Oh, that's gonna be a great workout. Brutal. I have to do it. You have to, you have to do it. I can't go back and say, hey, that's too much. That's way too much. That's, that's crazy. You're right. 100%.

Is there, so I love that. And like when I go for a run, sometimes I'm like, all right, I'm gonna go run 4 miles.

Yeah.

And then I'll be running and I'm tired and like my mind tells me, you know what? I think 2 is good today. And then you could do your meditative walk home and it'll still be a great experience. There's something inside me. I was like, no, fuck, I have to do the 4.

Yeah.

Is there ever a time to course correct when you think like, oh, should I plan something too hard? Or do you always stick to the thing that you plan? No, no.

Obviously if it's silly and you can get injured in, if we talk training, right?

Yeah.

Business. Yeah. Training, golf, you don't get hurt, whatever. But in training, um, many time in CrossFit, I'm like, okay, this is, that's the 3rd workout of the day. You wanna lift this weight. There's a risk of injury.

Yeah.

If you push it. Or triathlon, uh, training. When I, I'm feeling good, I'm supposed to do a 10-mile run and you're like, ow, you wanna push more, or I'm supposed to do something and then you're like, okay, well the right calf is cramping. It's on the board. Coach said to do it. Should I do it? If I don't do it, am I not gonna win the world championship?

Yeah.

Am I gonna suck this, that? And then you're like back and forth and you're like, well, if I keep going, I won't be able to train for 2 weeks, right? So the only time, that's the only time.

But it's also like the ego and the mind is very clever. Maybe sometimes like, hey, your leg hurts, and it's like, does it really hurt? Is it gonna, is it like if an injury hurt?

And then once you do it long enough, you, you know the tricks. Yeah, it's like a game, right?

Yeah, I know my, my mind's tricks very well. Yeah, and sometimes it wins, but as of getting, getting older and sticking to things longer, I'm starting to understand the way it works, which I think is probably the most important thing as a human being trying to create a life. Is understanding the dynamic between your true self that knows and your mind that's judging things and convincing things. And understanding that relationship, yep, it's so important to learn. And you can only learn that through experience.

Like, uh, in business, same thing. It's what analysis, right? Yeah. Strength, weaknesses, opportunity, threats. Same thing.

Yeah.

The way you look at it with the, the body, gotta know your strength, weaknesses, the threats, the opportunities. Same on the golf course. You know, I'm a fader, I'm a drawer.

Yeah.

I miss, this is my strength, this is not my strength. Yeah.

So you, uh, just backtrack a little bit. So you got into professional golf— well, you played college golf, D1 golf in Hawaii, right?

Yeah.

And then how did you go from college golf to professional golf at the PGA level? What was that transition like?

The, the, the steps to take to go— what was your, what was your story from college to, uh, I was, I was, uh, fortunate enough And I'm obviously good enough that normally when you get a D1 scholarship in golf, if you play D2, D3, different. If you're D1, you're pretty decent player. Yeah. So that was D1 college golf, full scholarship. You have 4 years to see as an amateur college player if you have the game to go pro. Your coach gonna tell you, you can see it when you play college tournaments. Yep. And you'll, you'll know real quick after 4 years if like, hey, I'm good or I'm not good. When those 4 years I had some great success as an amateur to play against the pro, I would qualify in some tournament with the best in the world, the US Open, the European Tour, French Open, some PGA Tour event, whatever. And obviously that gave me confidence and I was like, okay, I'm good enough to give it a try at least. Yeah. And see where it takes me. Yeah. And that was, If I did not have those results in my college career, I would have, um, with my degree in business, do something, whatever it is.

So as a golfer, someone who loves golf physically, like for example, I'll use me for example.

Mm-hmm.

I can hit great shots.

Yeah.

I can hit great drives. I can hit great approach shots, but sometimes I don't.

Yeah.

And would you, would you say that is, uh, more due to not being focused, or is it more due to not taking the time to set up a precise way each time? Like, for example, if I had a bad drive, it's usually because I either took a bad swing or I was standing a little too close to the ball. And if I actually didn't do that, I'd hit, I would hit a great drive, but it doesn't happen every time. Right. And it's just such a repeatable movement. Like, why do some people, why can some people repeat the movement perfectly so much more than other people?

Is it physical, mental, or any level?

Any level.

So remember we talked about it before. I think the way to look at the equation here is, okay, why am I not able to repeat the same shot all the time? It's either technical or mental. This— the easier— easiest one is to talk about the mental first. Yeah, to wave it out of the equation. Did I make a poor swing because it was a lack of commitment? Same for the driver. I hit a bad drive because I know on the left side is out of bounds, so I block it right on purpose. Yeah, it's in case. Yeah, so that's mental. That's a mental error. Is it a Strategic error, golf course. Oh, I know I, I hit my drive 300 yards. There's water at 310. What if I catch a good one? Yeah. Gonna go in the water. Yeah. Now you're over the ball. You're not even thinking about swing. Okay. I don't wanna swing as hard in case I catch a good one.

Yeah.

Then shit, right?

Bad swing.

So that's bad swing, but that's, but it's your strategy. Yeah. Bad strategy. Yeah. Bad mental thinking, bad strategy. Bad prep behind the ball.

Yeah.

Then you have, okay, I'm committed to the shot, I'm committed to, uh, the club, the wind, what I'm supposed to do strategy-wise, a draw, a fade, whatever. Then I hit it and I hit it like shit. Then it could be technical, could be, uh, could be, yeah. And then after it's a swing.

So if you want to get to be a much better golfer, like I, I've gotten much better at putting lately and it's because I started doing the same exact thing over and over again. It used to be like You know, I'm gonna feel this, I'm gonna feel that, but it's a game of millimeters.

Yes.

So if you can like figure out the exact thing that you need to repeat, you could probably remove a lot of the technical errors.

100%.

Even if you don't have the best swing.

No.

But you can repeat it, you can play the game.

Exactly. Yeah. 100%. 100%. That's why there's a lot of guys on tour and I work with, uh, a swing coach and, um, most, a lot of guys repeat the same ball shape. Is a fader of the ball, he's a drawer of the ball. A few guys can work both ways, work both way, that's fine. But the guys that are the top guys, they always have the same shot, repeatable, repeatable. Yeah, less to work on, less thing to work on. Yeah, and just short game and inside 150 yards. Yeah, but they always hit the same shot.

Yeah, I think the setup is very important. It's like if I set up to putt And I'm standing the exact same way and I take the exact same stroke, the ball's gonna go where it needs to go. But if I'm standing an inch closer or an inch further away, and it's like find the perfect setup and then practice it over and over and over again, and then just focus on the setup and then the swing, and then don't care about the result.

Exactly. And then after, when you locked in on always setting up the same way to the golf ball, then it comes down to speed and reading the greens, right? Rush is all speed, right?

Right. Which is also, yeah.

Oh yeah.

So, okay, so you went into professional golf. Um, what was— what's your story from going from professional golf into CrossFit? Like, before you got into CrossFit, were you lifting and as strong as— like, were you training as hard as you are today back when you were playing golf originally, like back in college?

I was training hard, not the same type of training obviously, but so, uh, played professional golf for 3, 4, 5, 5 years. My last year of, my last year of professional golf when I was traveling, I was already doing CrossFit.

Okay.

Right.

Last year.

So I started, so 2012, I started probably CrossFit in 2011 and I used it as a training protocol and I kept the weight lights. I like the energy, the craziness about it and whatnot. And CrossFit was getting on the map. 2012. With my team, I was— I played that year, I played a couple events on the PGA Tour and went to the CrossFit Games the same year.

On the same year?

As a CrossFit athlete. Wow. And I was still a professional golfer. I was not fully in CrossFit, right? So I was probably the only athletes there that literally played at the top level.

Yeah.

In golf and CrossFit the same year.

That might be in, in history.

I wonder if there's ever been another professional golfer that I'm sure there's like, no, there is like, for instance, but it's the same, like, hey, the same year that person did CrossFit and powerlifting.

Yeah.

Kind of in the same category.

Same category.

Yeah.

But not golf.

Correct. Right. Not, hey, that guy did, um, even we can say, hey, he competed in High Rocks World Championship.

Yeah. High Rocks and CrossFit.

And CrossFit. Pretty similar.

Similar skills.

Yes. But golf and CrossFit, that's very weird.

Very weird. Very weird. So how did you know you were good enough at CrossFit to go into the CrossFit Games?

Like, what—

how did that all come to be? I mean, did you just go to a class one day and you're like, I love this and I was good at it? So I started, I just, uh, I went to, uh, where were you living at the time?

In a condo by the mall here in Palm Beach Gardens. I moved in Florida in 2007.

Gotcha.

So, um, sorry, 2008. Um, how did I do it? Um, joined a class, taking class, like like these people are doing. And 2012, went to the CrossFit Games with that team there, trained, competed pretty good. CrossFit was new on the map and we were always training with the best, uh, guys in the state.

Yeah.

And you can judge yourself, right? Like, oh, okay, well I can hang with those guys, this and that. And I'm not even really lifting weights. I'm right playing golf full time during the day.

Yeah.

I'm doing 1 hour a day. And then 2012, with some old sponsors, something happened where I had to stop playing golf with a contract and whatnot. And, uh, then I was like, you know what, I'm gonna get— be all in CrossFit. Yeah, yeah.

Because I'm all in.

Yeah, yeah.

So before your CrossFit career, yeah, you're golfing. Like, when did your, your, your training begin in life?

Uh, training?

Yeah, like lifting, running, like—

oh, since I was like 6 years old. Oh yeah, with my dad.

Okay.

Yeah. Oh, even, yeah, as soon as I could bike.

Yeah.

On a tricycle or whatever it is.

Yeah.

I was, I remember running with him.

Did your dad push you when you were a kid?

Oh, big time.

Really?

Sports, martial arts, black belt in karate, track and field. He loved track and field, long jump, high jump. I was top 3 in my island country.

Yeah.

In, in track and field, in jump and high jump.

So.

A lot of 5Ks back home.

So you did a lot of like cardio and stuff like that early on?

As soon as I was born. Yeah.

So I'm curious, do you think that at the level of athleticism you have is more so because of your genetics or more so because of your early training?

Early training.

Really?

Yeah. 100%. Well, genetics has a part of it, like, but it's education. It's to be exposed at a young age to competition.

You're training your mind so early.

So early. Martial arts was huge for me. Piano lesson was huge for me. Track and field was huge. I was always doing activity. I'm from an island where, I mean, you drive 30 minutes this way, there's the ocean. You drive 3 hours that way, there's the ocean. There's nothing to do but perfect weather, then be athletic.

Right.

And around guys, cousins, and you just compete all the time. So the question was, yeah, so I think comes down to being exposed to fire at a very young age. Yeah. Obviously there's genetics involved a little bit. Yes, 100%. Yeah.

But like, you think if I was training at 6 years old, you'd be a better athlete? I'd be okay.

Yeah.

'Cause like, I feel like no matter how hard I try at like running, for example.

Yeah.

I'm never gonna be doing, you know, a 20-minute mile. Well, I'm never gonna be doing like running, you know, more than 5 miles at like an 8-minute pace even.

Got you. Yeah, but I was running 5Ks when I was like, yeah, 7 years old.

That's, that's incredible.

I was on my bike for hours when I was young.

Yeah, I had the opposite. My mom was always very careful and overprotective and like, I was in sports, she's like, don't overdo it. Don't push yourself too hard.

Yeah.

Be careful. Be careful.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I probably, I don't know if I had ADD when I was young. Maybe. No, I don't know. I don't know.

What is ADD?

It was just like, so always athletics. Yeah, the max. Yeah, wanting to be the best at everything. Yeah, I mean, fighting. We're racing and I'm losing, I'm fighting the guy after.

Yeah, bad.

Yeah, bad. Yeah. Did you get—

where do you get that inner dog in you? Is that from your dad?

Yeah, I mean, I grew up hunting. I mean, my grandparents had a farm, right? So the islands, people think it's like, um, Miami Beach and stuff. No, no, it's like the Bahamas, right? Bahamas, which is nice. Yeah, but I grew up on a farm a lot. Every weekend I was hunting, fishing, not to just kill stuff, to eat. And my grandparents, my granddad had pigs. He had a herd of cows on horses with the, how do we call that in English?

The lasso? Oh, the whip.

The whip, the lasso to get the cows, hurdle to them, watch and vaccine. Killing the pig on the weekend, going hunting, 3 mountains. That's how I grew up. My dad was in the military too, a little bit when he was younger.

So just curious, um, totally side topic, did they do vaccines for humans where you grew up like they do here?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Do you get them?

I think so. No way. No.

Okay. Yeah, just curious. From here, that might be the secret. French fuck.

French colony.

So, so, so you've kind of always been there, always been You know, training hard, but more than anything, like developing the mind at a very young age.

Yes. Developing the mind. And that's, again, I think, I don't know, some people might argue with me there. That's, that's a good topic. I have that conversation a lot with people. Obviously education is a big part of how you're gonna be as an adult, right?

Yeah.

Correct.

Yeah.

You have kids now, so I'm sure you want to educate them a certain way, right? Raise them a certain way, right? So I think the way my dad raised me, there's pros and cons, obviously. Not everybody's perfect, but the way he raised me, the way he talked to me, the way he behaved around me, kind of helped me develop those assets. Yeah. For competition, athletics and stuff. For other stuff, not good, right?

Yeah.

But that, that was not the, the goal, right?

Yeah.

Athletics was always the goal. So it gave me all the tools so that I can be as successful as I can. Now, team meeting, working this, maybe not the best guy, right?

Right.

But that was not the way I was raised. So yeah. I think comes down to that. My dad. Yeah, for sure. 100%.

So at what age did your dad start like pushing you and like, I mean, what can you, I don't know if you remember, but yeah.

I remember back after 6 years old.

6 years old.

That's when I, again, very traumatic, not traumatic, but no, I mean, it's not traumatic, just life. Yeah. Be a man, right? Yeah. I think that's when I started, I was old enough to have a gun and start hunting with him.

Wow.

And you know, you grew up as a kid, you look at Bambi on TV.

Yeah.

Deers and yeah. Oh, right.

Yeah. And hey, I love the animals.

Yeah. And we go hunting, kill it. He kills it, obviously shoot it. And the thing is still alive, right? The deer is still alive. And this is like, now you, you're gonna grab the knife and you're gonna kill the deer. Yeah. Finish it. Yeah. I don't know, just shoot him another bullet. Said, no, no, I need you to cut that deer.

Wow.

Cut him open. Yeah. Like liver king.

Yeah.

And I'm 6 years old.

Yeah.

I started crying with the knife in my hand. I started crying. Then he grabbed my hand and he taught me how to do it and stuff. He say, son, like this is life. This is real life. Like we're not doing this to be barbarians. We're doing this because we need some meat for next week. We're gonna put in the freezer.

This is how life works.

That's how life works.

Yeah.

Gotta eat.

Right.

Right. So that started there. I mean, that's obviously as a 6-year-old, like, like it's not like you're going to the mall and going buy a, teddy bear, you know what I mean? Yeah. Different.

Do you think that in today's society people are raising their kids too soft?

Oh, 100%.

Soft. At scale. Yeah. Like most people. Yeah.

Most people now. Yes. I don't want to get, oh man, if you, that's, we can go deep there. That gets my blood raising. But, um, yeah, 100%. Not all of them. There's some great parents out there that I see.

Yeah.

But the majority of them.

Yeah.

I'm sure you see it. Of course, 100%. It's a different mentality.

Yeah. And, and, and there's, yeah, it's like, it's, you, you know, you have to kind of build the kids, you know, reality early on, whether that's mental toughness, it's compassion, it's communication skills, it's mindfulness. I mean, there's a whole kind of core of things that if someone goes into the world with high levels of, they can operate better, they could be more confident.

100%.

So, okay, so you started very early on, you were training all the way through golf, you got into CrossFit. What'd the CrossFit career look like?

CrossFit career. So I was like, okay, I want to go to the CrossFit Games. I want to compete. In order to do that, I want to open my gym.

Oh, so you opened your own gym?

Opened my own gym. Yeah. I think in 2013. Well, for a lapse of 2 years there, I studied finance in college. So for a lapse of 2 years while I was figuring out the gym and stuff, I went to work at Merrill Lynch as a financial advisor, whatever. Hated it. Last took my licenses test, whatever, only a year, and then I stopped. But a, um, opened my gym in 2013 and run a gym until 2021.

And you were training in that gym every day?

I had a 3,000 square foot gym not far from here and running classes a couple times a day for the business to be alive. And Training full-time with whoever was there, the team, people that wanted to go to the Games, other athletes that were decent.

Yes.

Aspiring partners.

Yeah.

And 2, 3 sessions a day for 7 years straight.

Wow.

Yeah.

And how much of during that time were you doing things like, um, mobility and like restorative work? Like how do you create a— Yeah, not much.

At 13, 14, 15, that wasn't big. And then Mobility became a big thing. Kelly Starrett, right? Yeah.

Kelly Starrett. Love, love that. Great.

So that's when like, okay, and then injuries happen and CrossFit's pretty hard on the body at that level. And, um, but no, the, now the knowledge that I have with sauna and meditation and red light therapy and, uh, supplements and whatnot, I wish I knew it back then. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So when did you, uh, what, what were the competitions that you did in CrossFit?

Well, you name all the local competition, we've done them. We won them. Yeah. Then after that, it's, uh, the pinnacle in CrossFit is the world championship. They call it the CrossFit Games, right?

Yeah. Where do they do that?

Used to be in California.

Yeah.

We did it a couple years, 2 or 3 years in California, and then they move it to Madison, Wisconsin. Gotcha. And I don't know where it's at now.

What, what, just, just for people listening, what, what is the CrossFit Games? Like, what do you, what do you do? Like, what are the—

The game is so—

Like how many workouts and stuff?

It's a 3, 4-day, uh, competition.

3 days?

3, 4, 4 days competition. And they put you through on average 3 to 4 workout a day. Wow. Time domain of those workout can go, can go from 5 minutes to running a triathlon.

Wow.

And in CrossFit, the beauty of it is that you don't know what the event's gonna be.

Really?

Most of the time they release it maybe a couple days before, but most of the time they don't let you know.

Wow. So you really gotta be a, a versatile athlete.

Yeah, exactly. And they test your gymnastic, your strength, your conditioning, and I'm missing a few. Um, and then, uh, they, they test you time domain-wise, which is short or long. Yeah. Different energy system.

Right.

And that's it. So that's the, the, the world champ— the US Open of golf is the CrossFit game, is the Tour de France.

It's how, how many people compete?

Compete.

And yeah, like how do you even get into the world champ?

So in order to get there, you have qualifier, like the US Open qualifier.

And is that a regional thing or a state thing?

Every state.

Every state.

Every, so yes, every state they have a competition that lasts 4 days called the Open.

Yeah.

Forgot a little bit. It's called the Open. Then let's say, um, 65 guys qualified to go to regional. That's region. So North, Northeast. Well, exactly. Then there you have 65 athletes for 3 spots.

Wow. So, so 5 spots. So the, in the states, how many people are competing to get into the qualifier for the regionals?

Oh, thousands signs up.

Thousands. Okay.

So group thousands signs up.

So only 65.

But thousands sign up. Yes. They want to be part of a community. How many are actually competitive in that age group? 400.

Gotcha. So then you got to win the state to then get into the regional.

Top 65 to go to regional.

And then we have to place in the top 3.

Top 3 or 5, depending on your age group.

Wow. Out of, out of that.

Wow.

And, and how many people are competing in the regionals at that point?

65 per region.

Oh, 65 per region.

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah.

Gotcha. Gotcha. Roughly 75, maybe.

Yeah.

I might be off a little bit. Yeah. But, and then top 3, top 5. I don't know the rules. It used to be top 5, used to be top 3. And then all these region with the qualifier makes the field for the CrossFit Games.

And then there's what, like 100 people in the CrossFit Games or something, or less?

Probably a little less.

Less than that.

Yeah. A little less.

Yes.

Wow. So you're up against the most elite in that sport.

Well, which that sport is like everything almost. It's not like triathlon, but it's, it's, it's strength, speed, power, everything. Yeah.

Yeah. Yep.

And then so on a 4-day or 3-day CrossFit Games.

Yeah.

You're doing how many different, like what, what, what would the, the field look like if you showed up and okay, what am I gonna get myself into over the next 4 days?

So you get there a couple days before. It's fun. Talking about fucking being nervous. And there's always an opening ceremony. And the guy that runs the CrossFit Games, the competition is always at night. I'm gonna release the first event. That's how it goes. Right. Builds the momentum and say, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they always stop. They always go long the first day. Most likely, I wanna say 80% of the time they go long.

Meaning long, how long is long?

Sorry, a triathlon. So there's, for instance, oh, Sometimes the one day they say, one year they said, you're gonna row a marathon, rowing a marathon on a rower. That was crazy shit. Um, or bike run or whatever it is. So they release that. So the next day you get jacked up, whatever. So you do that first event and then you have 3, 4 hours to recover. Event 2, meet at the stadium. Oh, it's a lift. They go long. Now they're gonna test your strength and the fatigue, how you recover. Okay.

Now, and what, gimme an example of one of those types of, of workouts.

Yeah. Could be a one rep max snatch.

Really?

One rep max.

Uh, so it could just be who's doing the heaviest snatch. Yeah.

And then you have a minute and they have a bar here and everybody's there and you pick it up, you pick it up, you move on, you go there, you miss, you go there.

Wow.

And we go until one guy is left.

Oh wow. Okay. So they start with a weight and then if you—

At the end of time. Exactly.

So really you're not just doing one rep, you're probably doing 10 reps. I don't know.

Maybe, uh, one rep max.

Yeah.

Right.

So, wow.

But the, the morning you did a, uh, 90-minute triathlon where you redlined the last 30 minutes to, uh, get points. Then at night you gotta recover, and then at night you gotta do a, a gymnastic event, which is, uh, walking on your hands and, uh, doing some ring muscle-up and, um, being on the Assault Bike.

Could, could everyone in the CrossFit Games walk on their hands pretty much? Yeah.

No, no. At that level.

Yeah. Really? Yeah.

You, you know what's gonna, you don't know, but You know what's gonna pop up, right? So you start, I stick to my feet. Some, some walk on the hands better than others. Yeah. Yeah.

That's crazy. And then, so it's, it's by the end of it, are you just, is it like the hard, like the hardest workout? You smashed. Yeah, absolutely smashed. And are you training up until the first day or do you take a couple days of rest?

So you, you, you always train hard and then there's a tapering process so that it's always high volume. Intensity low. And then as you get closer, not always, but me as an athlete, that's what I did it, how I did it. And then as the week gets closer to the event, volume goes down, intensity goes up. But anyway, yeah, a lot of mobility, bodywork, nutrition, and make sure you do.

Do they have rules on steroids in the CrossFit Games?

100%. 100%. Yeah.

People break the rules.

People break the rules. Yeah. People break the rules. They, they test you. Yeah. Then just pass the test.

So it's like a, you're, people really wanna win this thing. They're doing whatever they can to win it.

And it's not even like this, it's not like there's like $5 million NFL deal in there, right? You know, it's just competitors.

So if you could win the CrossFit Games and still be broke. Oh yeah.

Yeah. There is no money.

I think it should be a bigger event. It's so, it's such a test of athleticism. It's brutal. Yeah.

Yeah. There should be more money. I mean, first place makes what, half a million? 300 grand.

Oh, they're okay. So they're, they're— but yeah, it's like first place.

Yeah, one event a year.

Yeah.

Okay, the top, they make— no, there's no money in that. I mean, yeah, it's relative. Yeah, compared to golf, there is no money in CrossFit, right?

So really, the people— the person that wins is the most well-rounded.

Yes, just the bragging rights. Yes, there's money, but there's no money.

Yeah, sponsorships, anything like that, like endorsement deals?

A few guys that made some money. Yeah, but compared to other sports with the How much you have to invest and what compared to, I mean, tennis is a hard sport, but whatever it is, uh, other sports like the, the payout. I mean, you, you ruin your body, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. You ruin your body, you ruin your hormones for the, the, yeah.

You're young. Well, there's, there's a level of CrossFit where you're enhancing your body.

Uh-huh.

But then there's going too far and ruining the body.

Yeah. Yeah.

Where does that line get crossed?

Like going too far, like in competition, you mean?

Yeah. Like if, if I were to say I wanna get into CrossFit.

Yeah.

Like the, there's a, there's a stage in which I'm now going to become better, healthier, stronger, better.

Yeah.

Like when do you, when do you think people like go too far and then now they're ruining their bodies cuz they're working too hard?

Well, when they, they start to compete at the highest level.

Yeah.

I mean, there's exception, there's some, I mean, no, I mean, my friends are watching that from CrossFit and still come