The Dark Side of Success Nobody Talks About

I was living in the house in the Hollywood Hills. I was driving my Range Rover. I was around some of the world's most famous people, going on people's private jets and yachts and this and that. And anyone that was looking from the outside would have thought, wow, that I was the luckiest man in the world. And yet I was in a place where I was like, I just want out. Big life, you know, you have big problems too. I was 22 years old, just before my 22nd birthday, was jumped on the street and pronounced dead from it. Beaten into a coma by 3 guys, full face reconstruction, bone graft surgeries, metal plates, new teeth, several months in high dependency and intensive care, and then seeing my reflection for the first time looking like a monster. I didn't even know who the person was. I was like, "I'm out," you know, like, "I'm done." It was like the worst thing that happened to me, but it had a ripple effect into really starting my life. I was more successful, richer, and from the outside had a better life than I could have ever dreamed of. But at that point where I got to where I felt like I had nothing, and then you're sitting in a room being like, what happened to my life? My life's over. You don't feel anymore. You're not getting that same rush that you used to get, and then you're lost. And that's when the mind starts going, I want out, I want to give up, I can't keep running, I really need to figure myself out. You can have comfort and you can have growth, but you never have both.

What's up guys, welcome to the show. In this episode, I'm interviewing Oliver Trevino. Now this episode is really interesting because Oliver is an actor —a producer and an entrepreneur. Actually, he's the founder of CaliWater, which is an amazing drink, and that's not a sponsor of this show or anything. I actually genuinely like it. We spent the summer in the Hamptons and we were ordering it before I knew anything about Oliver. So highly recommend this. But it was cool because Oliver works with some of the most famous people in the world. I'm genuinely interested in how do you put yourself in that room? How do you do business with people that everyone wants their attention? How do you show up when you're working on so many different things at once and continuously create success in different areas. So, this episode is packed with great lessons, great stories, and an amazing guest, Oliver. So, thank you, I hope you enjoy. Cool. So, if someone asked me who you were, after doing some background research, checking out your Instagram, you know, studying the things you do, I wouldn't really know what to say except for this guy's kind of the man. Yeah. You're kind of the man. You're, you know, hanging around some of the coolest people in the world. Where does that magnetism come from?

Um, thank you, good question. I don't feel like the man sometimes. I feel like, what decisions have I made in this? Like, I literally was at— I was a few minutes late and I was outside on the phone to literally my best friend, and I said to her, I was like, it's just one of those days where I feel like, why have I taken on so much? Yeah, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's like, big— it's true what people say, big life, you know, you have Big problems too. But don't get me wrong, my life is amazing. As far as magnitude, I mean, my mom's a lot to do with it. My mom's Irish and she, you know, they're like a walking fridge magnet. They have a quote for everything. And you know, they're great at giving advice. And she would just tell me since I was a kid, like to just plant seeds, like just be good to people and plant seeds. You know, you never know where that person's gonna be. You know, it's cliché, but you don't know. The valet guy might end up running the hotel, you know. That sort of mindset. And I think that America to me is, it's been amazing. I mean, for me it's been the American dream. And I moved to the US, you know, 22 years ago to LA and lived between, always went back and forth. But I think that mindset, especially in a city like LA, has been the result of a lot of my success because not a lot of people do that, right? Like people want it, the people want it now. They're like, I'll take this lunch or I'll take this meeting, but what's in it for me? What am I gonna get? What's the immediate transaction? And so I I think maybe I'm hoping that my success is because of that mindset of just showing up and doing things for people without expecting anything in return. And then sometimes you get nothing and sometimes you do. And if you plant enough seeds, enough plants will grow.

I love touching on that people want the immediate return. It's kind of bred into society through social media and immediate dopamine hits and people seeing how you can get rich quick. Truth is, things you're doing now may materialize for you in 8 years, 10 years. I'm 35, I'm a little bit younger than you, but I've started to see that happen in my life. Yeah. And it's something I feel like people really need to embrace.

Yeah, I mean, it's that part of life, right? You realize as you get older how many things went wrong, how many setbacks, how many breakups, how many, you know, job losses, whatever happened ended up being great. You know, um, you can't see that in the moment. And I think especially in today's society, because of social media, because of everything else, you want a perfect life now. Yeah. And when your life isn't perfect, it's really hard to understand that because you're like, look at what everyone else has, and you're comparing yourself a lot more. So it's even harder to get out of that hole. Um, whereas when I was growing up, like, I would have a tough time, but it was really like between me and whatever was going on, right? I had nothing to compare it to. Other than other friends that were probably having a tough time too. Now, the picture that we all paint is this perfect life, and that makes it really hard for people when you're going through something to be able to see that it probably will be great. Whatever you're going through, you know, might end up being— and I don't mean great in the way of it's a great thing to happen. I mean great in the way that you really learn and you really grow from those moments. You know, like a friend said to me, Actually, over Christmas, I was, uh, we were, we were transitioning a couple of, you know, some leadership in one of my companies, um, which is always a big, it's always a big move because you're, you're hesitant. It's like your gut, you want to do it, but you're hesitant because if you're wrong, it's a really big mistake. Um, and I was just, I was just struggling with it, the in-between. And the friend said to me, who's also a CPG founder, he said to me, Oliver, you can have comfort and you can have growth. 'But you never have both.' And it resonated so hard because it's so true. You know, you don't ever— when you're comfortable, it's great. You know, being comfortable is nice, but you never look back on that day of comfort and go, 'I really learned today.' You know, how did I evolve as a human, as a businessman, or whatever, or as a man, as a husband, as a dad? You really learn through the struggles.

You know, I love that you can have comfort or you can have growth, but you can't have them both at the same time.

You kind of have both.

It's so powerful because, you know, when challenges come up in life, it's very painful and we want to escape those things or avoid them entirely. We also want everything in life, and you have to come into a relationship with problems that this is something that I'm going to grow through, I'm going to learn through this, I'm going to be able to authentically help someone in the future because I went through this actual pain. 100%. You can't understand, you know, the lessons that you want to learn through conversations or through reading or through listening to something. You have to actually feel the pain and go through it.

Yeah, yeah. And it's like when you look at any part of life, like if you look at relationships, right? Like, at least in my opinion, you know, meeting someone that's been through a lot in some capacity is better because then it's like if you're 10 minutes late for dinner, it's not going to cause a, you know, insane argument because it's like, in the grand scheme of life, that's not a big thing. Yeah, but when you've never been through a big thing, you don't have a gauge, you know? And I think that's why a lot of people, you know, even when I founded a company, you know, people want to know that you can handle the tough days. Yeah, you know, everything when it's perfect, a majority of us can handle very well, right? Like, you're just rolling with it, and sometimes you just get lucky and things just go great forever. Yeah. Most of the time it's not the case. So it's not about how you handle the great days, it's how you handle shit when it goes just wrong. Yeah. And sometimes wrong for no reason at all. You're like, oh my God, why is this happening? Yeah, you just gotta deal with it, you know.

Well, I think one of the, one of the most like painful things I dealt with was when I was in my 20s, you know, I had built this, uh, concert promotion company. We did the world's largest foam party. We did it all over the country. I was like 22, I'd made my first million dollars when I was 21. All my friends thought I was successful. And then I lost all my money on a show. We booked an arena, we didn't sell enough tickets. And then as if that wasn't bad enough, I ended up getting slapped with a $250,000 lawsuit when I had no money to even hire a lawyer. And there was no way out. There was no escaping it. I did not see any path forward. Now obviously, fast forward 15 years, it all worked out, it all worked out great, amazing lessons learned, but it built a bit of a muscle, right? When other things come up. What are some of the hard things that you've had to go through in your journey so far? Or what was one hard thing that you've had to go through?

I will say that when people— I've been lucky enough to surround myself with some incredible business minds, successful, very, very successful men, women, you know, that I can learn from. And I will say, they always used to say to me, like, you know, I'd be sitting with them at dinner and I'd be like, how was your day? And they're like, oh, we just went through a litigation, or we just went, you know, got out of the hearing. And I'm like, you're not stressed? Like, we're at dinner, we could have canceled. Yeah. And they're like, becomes part of your life. Yeah, that's true. You know, the bigger you get and the more successful you get, that becomes part of the norm, you know. So I, I definitely, you know, you definitely start experiencing that part of life the more you do business, the more successful you get. That's just because you're, you know, there's more risk there, right? There's more, more for people to take. Yeah. For me, the struggles of what I've been through in life, I mean, I would say without a doubt the hardest thing I went through was, you know, I was 22 years old just before my 22nd birthday and was, was jumped on the street and, you know, pronounced dead from it. So I was beaten into a coma by 3 guys. So fully full facial reconstruction, bone graft surgeries, metal plates, new teeth. And yeah, was pronounced dead. And I was a theater kid, right? So all I cared about really was my— not all I cared about, but a big part of it was my looks. And so there I was, you know, pretty much should have been dead, survived death, and then, you know, several months in high dependency and intensive care, and then seeing my reflection for the first time looking like a monster. Like, I didn't even know who the person was. My mom was wheeling me out the hospital to get some fresh air. And I just saw this face and it was like, I mean, my head must have been like 3 times the size from swelling. I had no mouth. I had, it was just, it was that. And I was like, I'm out, you know, like I'm done. And thankfully, you know, it's times like that your support system really matters, whether it's your friends or your family. And that's what helped me through it. And then I just carried on, you know, I used that negative as a positive. In the way that I didn't really want to be in England anymore because I was like, yeah, it's not— whatever's, whatever's meant to happen isn't happening in the right way. And I moved to the US. I used a little bit of compensation money that I got and moved to the US. Um, so once again, it was like the worst thing that happened to me, but it had a ripple effect into really starting my life, which I, I can't say I wouldn't have done. It's very unlikely I would have moved as far as like America 'cause I'm so close to my mom and dad and my brothers, if I didn't have something so drastic happen. So I jumped to America, but then of course that sort of stuff catches up with you as well. It's an ongoing part of my fear that I was living in. The go-to reaction for me was just fear because that's what my life was. It was like, shit, something's going to go wrong at any point. And then I would say my 20s, I kind of dodged it. By like just moving so quick and having this like vision of a dream in my head, like the American dream. First it was like, I'm gonna be a pop star, now I'm gonna be this, now I'm gonna be that. I went through every chapter. And then I would say mid-30s, I got to a point where it was like, oh, I can't keep running. You know, the running was exhausting. And I got to a point where I was like, I need to stop and I really need to figure myself out. And dive a bit more inwards, um, and kind of peel back the onion and figure out what was underneath it, which really was just like complete fear.

Yeah. How did you make the decision to peel back the onion and dive deeper?

Um, by hitting a point where you feel like you've got nothing left. And I don't mean nothing left, um, financially or, or materialistic, because weirdly enough, that point where I got to where I felt like I had nothing I was more successful, richer, and from the outside had a better life than I could have ever dreamed of. And I think that's what was more scary, because then I had all the outside stuff that I thought would fix that feeling of just pure fear. Didn't work. And then I was like, what do I do now? Because I can't chase the car, can't chase the job, can't get the movie, can't, you know, the fashion brand, whatever it whatever I— and by the way, that fear played a massive part in my success. Yeah, don't get me wrong. Yeah, the fear was like pushing all day long, just trying to get me, and it still does, it's still there, you know. I don't think, I don't think it ever goes away, um, but it's how you control it and how you deal with it. But that was, that was the point for me, was that realization of like, okay, I've tried it every other way, I've got to go, I've got to really go inwards and, and figure this out. And normally it's like, you know, it comes back to years ago and childhood stuff, and you just have to kind of, you know, go back to—

go back to the roots. Dude, I'm smiling because I can relate so much. Like, in my early— you're mid-30s now. Mid-30s. There you go. Yeah. When I was, you know, probably 17, I had seen a younger guy driving in a Lamborghini. I remember very vividly, I was driving in— I was driving my grandma's minivan with my friend I looked over and there's this like unbelievable Lamborghini and the guy was not old and I was like, I gotta like talk to this guy. I rolled down his window, I'm like, "What do you do for a living?" And he's like, "I trade commodities." And I was, I looked at my friend like, "We gotta trade commodities." You know, I didn't know what that meant. And I was like, yeah, one day if I had that, like that would be it. My void would be filled. And then I remember I ended up buying my first Lamborghini and then I ended up buying the things. I was really lucky to have had some financial success early on. To learn that that's not what life is about. Of course, the void was still there. The, the, that empty feeling that you need to fill is still there. But most people in life are chasing the material things to fill their void. And the sad truth is that most people never actually even get the material things to realize that that's not what fills the void.

100%. And, and, and, you know, I, I talk about this a lot, especially with like very close friends and friends' kids, and, you know, seeing what I, what advice I can share. And it doesn't— people then hear that from me and they're like, oh, like, well, you're not living on a mountaintop, you're not like Buddha with nothing and just a, you know, a white, a white cloak. I'm like, no, it doesn't. I still love nice things. Yeah, I'm just aware that in the moment, if I'm buying a nice thing, it's not going to fix anything. If I want it and I want it for me and it's truly because I want to enjoy it, then great. Yeah, but if I'm expecting it to heal something or to To make someone else think something else of me. Yeah. Ain't gonna work. Never does work. And if it does work, it's a very short-lived, like, Band-Aid, and then it gets ripped off and the cut's so much worse. Yeah.

And, you know, if you're doing it because you want other people to think a certain, you know, way about you, it's really the people that you get the attention from, from having the things. Yeah. They're not the people you want the attention from. Of course. You're not gonna have, you know, an influential person in the world that's made a lot of change that you really want to get to know. They're not going to respect you because you're driving a Lamborghini.

Well, because you're, you know, you attract what you are, right? So if you're coming from a mindset that's very superficial and very shallow and I want them to love me, you're probably going to attract someone that is very superficial, very shallow, and just wants someone to love them. And then you create this really unhealthy, unhealthy dynamic.

Yeah, it's so true. I love to hear things like this, especially from someone like you who is in the Hollywood world, who's an entrepreneur, who, you know, probably a lot of younger people look up to and think, oh, I want to be like this person. Hearing that, like, and maybe one day you will be in the mountaintop with nothing. Maybe you go down the spiritual path.

I've tried that too. Yeah, I went to the mountains in Thailand and tried that, tried that a little bit. Um, but look, here's the thing, I, I love my mind because it doesn't kind of let up. Now it's just a, a case of like It's daily, right? Like, we can have this conversation now and I can think I have the answers and I'm spiritually evolved, and I can go out that door and within 5 minutes something can happen and I can be shouting at the— I'm not a perfect human being, right? It's about that daily, you know, check-in and that daily work. There's a book that I read, God, years and years ago. I don't know how old this book is now, but someone recommended it to me and it's called A Chimp Paradox. Okay. And it's a— I think it's a British psychiatrist that worked with a lot of athletes, like Olympic medalists, around training the chimp. And it's like understanding that the chimp is always going to be on your shoulder. You can't overcome the chimp. The chimp's too strong. Yeah. But you can learn how to work with it. Yeah. And the more you learn how to work with it, its voices aren't as strong. That always resonated with me because I'm sure there are some people— and look, we're all different. Every human being is different. Every mind is different. For me, my mind's never been one one of those. And I've done TM, I've done medit— all kinds of meditation. I've done breathwork, I've done 40 years of Zen, I've done ayahuasca, I've done iboga, I've done— I've tried everything. Nothing has ever just stopped my mind, you know? Yeah. Um, so for me, it's never about— I can't just suddenly be at peace. I, I don't believe many people can. It's just about how do I, how do I live on a daily basis the best way I can and kind of train the chimp. And the chimp is that voice, right? The chimp is that voice that says you're not good enough. Yeah, you're shit. Yeah, uh, nothing's ever gonna work out, you know, they don't love you, that person's talking about— it's the same voice. It's like just turning the volume down. Yeah, you know, but there's sadly— there's not a mute button, right? Or there might be a mute button, but it only lasts like maybe an hour or something like that, you know, and then I'm back to, you know But it's the relationship with the chimp that matters.

Like, I heard you say something that was very profound that maybe people didn't hear. I heard it very clearly because most people, you know, starting out, you don't even know the chimp is there. You think you are the chimp. And then you recognize that, okay, that chimp is there, but fuck, I hate that chimp. It's so annoying. And they have a bad relationship. You said, I love my mind. Yeah. That is the next evolution. It is what it is. It's there. And you can work with it and you can love it. You don't have to hate it and be frustrated with it all the time. I think that relationship you make with that voice inside of you is a huge key to being able to navigate life.

Yeah, 100%. I think a lot of times in life we're so quick to self-criticize things about us, but if we actually take a step back or a step outside of ourselves and look at it, some of those negatives have probably played a massive part in where we are, our survival, our successes, our talents. I'm sure for a lot of athletes, some of these athletes that I'm lucky enough to be around, and I'm like, they are just so, they're on it every single, I'll be shocked if they don't have a little voice that's pushing them. Yeah, for sure. I'll be shocked if it's just their alarm clock getting them out of bed every day. So it's a blessing and a curse.

But over time, the little mind, takes different shape and form. 100%. Stick to your disciplines as you show up for yourself. It goes from, "I don't think we're good enough for this," to, "Oh, we got this, no problem." You're making the voice become your advocate as opposed to your enemy by the actions you take on a regular basis. 100%. I think that's really powerful to understand. I mean, I went through something where I had done my first plant medicine retreat and I got really familiar with myself, I guess you could say. And by the way, I'm not a good runner by any means. I've never ran more than 4 miles at that time. And then I decided to go out for a run and I was, you know, not judging. I was like, I'm going to go for a 3-mile run, whatever. And I'm running and I'm noticing the voice and it's, "Oh, tired. Oh, when are we going to stop? How much longer?" I'm like, I used to be like, you know, just try to fight through it, make the, you know, the angry music louder. Just shut it down. And I had this relationship with my mind where I was like, thank you, don't need you right now. Thank you, don't need you right now. I just stayed present. And next thing you know, I ran 10 miles. And I had never ran more than 4 before. And 4, I would be beet red. Yeah. I want to throw up after. The next thing you know, 10 miles went by and I was kind of fine. Yeah, yeah. And it was due to the relationship with the mind.

And probably even though in the way of when you say about being exhausted, most of that battle and exhaustion comes from just the battle of the mind. Right. That's where the energy gets so drained. Yeah, exactly. That's what's sucking it. It's not your legs. Your legs can carry on running.

Yeah. And if you're in a good high-energy, high-vibrational state, the mind has a totally different flavor than when you're in a low-energy state. 100%. So you mentioned that it's something that you, I don't know exactly what words you used, but essentially realigned with on a daily basis. Yeah. Remember every single day. What's something you do on a daily basis to realign with the truth of how to navigate life?

I get on my knees and pray. And I would say that from a place of like, I believe everyone should do that. Not even if you're not religious, just pray to something. And I don't mean praying for something. I mean turning it over, being like, gratitude, thank you. You know, help me be the best version of myself I can be today. Help me help others just to get me out of my own head because there's something about when you pray, and I pray, I pray. So if I get rushed out the door and I haven't prayed and I notice I'm having a nightmare day, I'll be at lunch with me and I'll say, sorry, I'm just— I'll pray in a toilet. Like, I'll go get on my knees. Probably not the most, you know, sacred thing, but I've done it just because there's something about as soon as I turn it over, I get immediate, like, peace. As soon as I don't think that I'm running the show, that I'm like Mr. fucking In Control and it's my world and I can fix every problem and I can overcome every single thing and my ego is way out of control. I don't find anything works better than that. I'll try other things. I'd try— I love longevity, right? So I'll be sticking myself with NAD and peptides and this and that and everything.

So difficult.

Absolutely everything. And I'll still be running ragged. But if I just get on my knees and turn it over, I get a little bit of peace. That I don't get anywhere else.

I literally do all the same thing. It's like, "Oh, what's the magic substance I can take?" Yeah, yeah, of course, of course. But I think in order to— for someone who may not pray or for someone who may not ever take that path— Breathe. Yeah, breathe, but also recognize that— because we feel like we want to be in control. We feel like we think we can force our way through things. Recognize that, you know, we live in an infinite universe. There's infinite things that can happen. We're— we, you know, anything over infinity is zero. We have no idea how things are going to happen. There has to be, you know, something greater at play. Things are going to happen the way they're supposed to happen. And I think embodying that and recognizing that, you know, gives you the incentive to pray, gives you the alignment to let go and, you know, hand it over.

Yeah. And you don't— as I say, you don't have to If you don't want to call it praying, just breathe. Just take a moment in your day to breathe and let it go. Yeah. Now be in acceptance. I always feel like, you know, I'm a fan of self-help books. Like, I've read most of them. Yeah. Um, and if you— I feel like if you shook most of them and like said, give me one word, the one word that would fall out of most books would be acceptance. Because that's really the key to any pain that any of us are in mentally, right? It's that— it's refusing to accept where we're at in that moment. Yeah. And I try and practice that. I don't do it perfectly, but if I'm— have— if I'm spinning, whatever's going wrong, whatever it is— family, friends, business, life, my body, whatever's going on— if I actually just stop and pause and practice acceptance the spinning stops.

Yeah. Well, because in this very moment, yeah, everything's perfect. In this very moment, the only thing that's not perfect is your fears of what are going to happen or the regrets of things you've done. Yeah, yeah. That's a great— it's a great concept. It's you take a, you take a moment, you realize, you let go.

Yeah.

Everything's perfect right here and now. And also know that if you want to create a beautiful life, you have to change your energy in order to do that. Yeah, yeah, of course. So many people are in this low energy state in today's, in today's environment. And they want to force their way into solutions and they don't want to commit to things long term because there's so many things they're seeing around and they're not focusing on who they need to be, they're focusing on what they need to do. Yeah. I think that's just a really important thing to embody. Yeah. It's important to hear that from people that others may admire. Yeah.

That's great to hear, I love that. No, it's a simple— even when I say out loud, I'm like, "Yeah, it's kind of simple, I should be doing—" You know, it's like we We sometimes have the answers, and sometimes the best thing you can do is talk as well, because then you get the stuff out that you already know that's probably pushed down. You know, that's how it feels with me sometimes. Like, I sit and have a— it's— that's why friends— friendships are so important, you know. You've got to have friends around you that you can just be real with. Yeah. You know, if you're living this surface-level life and you're just talking to friends and a friend says, how you doing? You're like, I'm doing great, mate. And how you doing? I'm doing great. And you're all just crushing it, there's nothing there, you know what I mean? You've got to be able to call up a mate and be like, cry and let it out and be like, fucking struggling, and blah blah, because by the time you talk it out, you've normally got the answers yourself on what you need to do, you know? It's normally like we just don't do it because then the ego's at play, you know? Yeah, the ego doesn't want us to stop and take a little break and breathe and know that everything's fine in this moment, you know? The ego wants you to carry on beating yourself up about what you could have done, should have done. Yeah. And then telling you how bad it's going to be tomorrow and next week. Yeah. When we don't even know what's going on anyway, you know, that's how you energize. And then you drink more coffee. Yeah. And you add to it, you keep going, hammer harder, push harder.

Exactly. And then you watch—

fuel anxiety—

you watch Grant Cardone talk about you got to grind your way, you know, 18 hours a day if you want to make money, or just invest.

And then stick on a weird murder crime docu-series on Netflix or something, you know, just to give us all even worse anxiety. Yeah.

Instead of maybe just taking a break. Yeah, exactly. You know, you would love, I actually wrote a new book. I haven't released it yet. I'll give you a copy after. It's called "The Perfect Walk." Okay. And "The Perfect Walk" is my, you know, I had asked you kind of like, what do you do on a daily basis to realign? For me, I do "The Perfect Walk." It's a 25-minute walk. It goes along with 5 different songs. And it's basically, first part, you're feeling grateful, you're opening your heart, you're thinking about things you love, the people you love. Next part, the music changes and you walk and you feel your power. And you walk like you're 10 feet tall and you can just break through a brick wall. Third part is a moment of just letting go and being present and just continuously being more and more present. And then it leads into the fourth part, which is feeling connected with a higher power, with God, whatever you believe in. And then the fifth part's a celebration. So you celebrate that you got out in the morning or something you want to happen, you walk as if it already happened. And that's my 25 minutes in the morning to And in doing it, it gives your soul or your intuition the chance to shine through and guide you, as opposed to the mind that wants to control everything. Love that. So that's my kind of morning.

A friend of mine, Lex, who's a big kind of music manager, producer guy, we were away in Europe this summer and he said, he called it a gratitude walk. Yeah. And it was similar, it didn't have as many aspects, but it was just like The three of us had to walk. We were in Ibiza and we were walking up the mountain there and you just had to in turn say something that you were grateful for. And then it will go to the next person. And by the end of it, there's just no way you can feel crappy.

Yeah. And it's sad from the outside.

It sounds cheesy. Of course it does.

But I have a really good friend who he sets an alarm on his phone. I think it's every 2 hours and it's a gratitude alarm. He's like, oh, "Name something you're grateful for." It's like, it goes a long way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm a firm believer that your energy is what creates your thoughts, and your thoughts are what create your actions. And if you're staying in this overwhelmed, stressed, angry state, you're gonna get thoughts of scarcity, of fear, and you're gonna take actions that lead you there. Of course. Yeah, but I think a lot of people have it counterintuitively. They think they need to figure it out first in order to feel the way they wanna feel.

There you go. So talk to me about CaliWater. Kali Water. By the way, this is delicious.

And it is—

I haven't even popped mine open yet.

I had a few today already. Yeah? You drink these often?

I do. I do. It's funny. I still have a bit of PTSD. When I first started the brand, I remember it was during COVID I kind of wanted to create this. And people said to me, don't do a beverage brand. It's a nightmare. And I was like, no, fucking— I'm fucking doing it. Fine, I can figure this out. It's an absolute nightmare. And even just the beginning stages, which was getting the co-packer, getting the flavor house. And my co-founder Vanessa Hudgens is, it's a great thing 'cause she just has a better palate than me. Like she can just taste every little bit of a drink. I was watching a show, I can't remember what it's called, Hand of God or something recently. And the girl in it is a sommelier, like kind of like, you know, you pour the wine and you taste it and you can pick all the— Where it's from. Vanessa's like that. She can pick up on every flavor. So it was a great thing, but it was a headache because I would be like, "It tastes fine." She'd be like, "No, we just need a little bit of this." And then back to the flavor house and then back to the— And during COVID it was just so difficult because we'd turn up and then the factory was shut down because someone had COVID or the supply chain of like getting the ingredients, the prickly pear, 'cause it's a cactus water. Basically it's harvested from the prickly pear part of the cactus. And we were sourcing that from Tijuana, from a prickly pear farm. And then that would have issues coming in. We were just up against so many challenges. And then just what comes with it where people are like, oh yeah, well, you know, we, we'd love to make your drink for you. You've gotta order a million cans. Yeah. I'm like, I don't even know if I wanna do this yet. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So all the struggles that came with it, but we really believed in what we were doing. We really believed, I believed in the market opportunity and we really believed in our product and The reason I started it was simple. I was a big coconut water drinker. And I would have my panels done, my blood levels, and I just was, my sugar levels were too high. And it was, I was the guy that would have, you know, I don't drink alcohol and I would wake up in the morning, I'd have a coconut water and I would go to the gym and I'd finish and I'd have a coconut water. And then at dinner I'd do the same. And I'm like, I'm 100 grams of sugar in. Wow. Good sugars, but you don't need that much sugar. That's a lot. And so it just led me on a path of like, what else is out there? What hasn't been done yet? And, you know, I came across— there was, there was a— we weren't the first to market. There was another cactus water on the market, but I didn't really like their taste or their branding. And so, you know, we wanted to go out on this adventure, I should say, to create this, this beverage. And it's, it's like the best way to put it is, you know, why coconut when you can cactus? It's half the calories, it's half the sugar. It's got a ton of health benefits. And the best part is it's sustainable, you know, 'cause the prickly pear naturally drains its juice, whereas a coconut, you're cracking it open. So there's, it kind of ticks all the boxes that I would've hoped. And as I say, we really wanted to perfect the flavour. We didn't want this to be a celebrity gimmick. 'Cause I think we've all seen enough of those, you know? It's like you'll try it once to have it. You might take a quick snap and stick it on Instagram, but you're not going back and trying it again. We wanted a drink that would live on its own without any bells and whistles. Bells and whistles. And the great thing is the brand is full of bells and whistles just because people love the drink. Yeah. So it kind of works hand in hand. It's like we focus so much on the quality of the product first that we would send the product out to a bunch of people and friends in the industry just 'cause that's, you know, Vanessa and I come from that world. And most of them would come back by being like, oh my God, I'm obsessed. Yeah. Are you raising? I'd love to invest. And so our cap table is filled with people like Gerard Butler and Glen Powell and, you know, Now Demi Lovato, you know, Ryan Tedder, it's some incredible friends. Cody Bellinger. We got athletes in there. Claudia Godella from the UFC. You know, 25+ celebrities that all chose to invest. Wow. Just because they tried the products and they liked it. Yeah. That is the only reason, you know? Yeah. Mike Colter, Frank Grillo. It became a running joke that every time I'd film a movie that I would leave the set with new investors. And that was somewhat true, but it wasn't an intention. It's just because of course if I'm gonna be, you know, filming a movie in Puerto Rico for 2 months. I want Kali Ward to be a craft services. Yeah. And so we'd end up putting it there, and then same reaction again. People would be like, bro, I want to be on this, you know, it's great. So we've built a very authentic army, um, and I think that works in the way of celebrity brands because especially with retailers is, you know, you've got to put effort in, you've got to push the product, um, and when it's the other way around, when it's a celebrity just attaching themselves to the brand they don't want to do it, you know, they just want to do the bare minimum and get away with it. And I can relate to that because I would too, right? If someone said to me, hey, I'm gonna, you know, make you the face of this coffee cup company and I'm gonna give you, you know, $5 million and I need 5 posts, 2 retail appearances, and, you know, a press day. Yeah, I'm doing 5 posts, 2 retail appearances, and a press day, and I'm out. Yeah, I'm taking my money. Um, so by the way, I wouldn't get paid that. Mine would be a lot lower. But, um, it's, it's that mindset of, you know, like, kind of like Field of Dreams. You got to build it, you got them to want to come. Yeah. And then, and then you have something special. How do you guys get it off the ground? Uh, by losing most of my hair with the stress. Um, it was, it was— mate, there's, there's so much that doesn't make sense about Beverage, right? Um, In hindsight, if I could go back, I made a lot of mistakes. If I could go back, I would do a lot of it differently. Like, we launched the drink where I kind of, you know, we brought on a consultant, um, used a recruiter to find us an employee. I'm not really— I don't think it's ever gone that great when I've used a recruiter. Um, I think you have to find people through your network because you have a level of— I feel like in a way it's like— I've never used this reference, but it's kind of like dating, right? Like, when people use matchmaking services or apps, there's just no real connection. Yeah, it's like setup. It's the same in business. Like, they take the job because the money's there. Do they care? No. When you meet it for a friend who says, oh my God, I love Cali Water, I want to be, you know, let me know if they're ever looking for a job, there's something special there. And so I tried the recruiter stuff, and, and, you know, we, we launched it into market. I had no idea about retailers, you know. I just did the online play first, which online is good, good for beverage, but it's, it's not great because shipping is so costly. So you want to get your retailers. So then we were chasing the retailers and we were getting such a positive response. But what happens is you go into a retailer, you're like, hey, this is my drink, will you try it? You know, you don't actually go in most of the time, you're on an email and you send them product. But either way, they try the product, they come back and they say, oh my God, we love it, we'd love to stock it. Who's your distribution company? Yeah. And we would say, we haven't got one yet. And they would say, well, come back when you have one, we'd love to take you in. So then you go to the distribution companies. And you say to them, I've got this product, we'd love you to take it on. They try the product, they check the market, they make sure they haven't got anything like it. They come back, they say, oh my God, we love your product, we'd love to take you on. How many stores are you in? And you say, well, we're not in any stores yet. And they say, well, we can only bring on brands that have 50+ stores. And you're like, hang on a minute, this doesn't quite make sense. There's nothing logical about this. So I can't get a store until I've got a distributor, but I can't get a distributor until I've got a store. That was the circle we were in. And then finally you just find your people, right? You find your local stores. Like for us, it was like, you know, Khalil from SunLife, the founder of SunLife Organics, he became an investor of ours and he's just been a, you know, he's a dear friend of mine and he's a godsend. And he put it in his SunLife and there you go, you got 4. And then like Bristol Farms and then Gelson's and a lot of the little local kind of stores in LA and California. And then we racked it up and then, you know, you carry on going. But you know, it never really, the grind never really stops, you know? Beverage, we've tried to do it a bit different and not like just throw millions of dollars at marketing and hope it sticks because I've seen so many brands just have that big spike. Yeah. And then just tank, you know? That's why it's also hard in beverage 'cause a lot of, you know, friends, I feel like you're only ever one, you know, mutual friend away from someone that's invested in a beverage and lost money in a beverage, right? Right, yeah. Because, and also they're beverages that I remember being like, hang on, you lost money on that? Didn't that go public? And they're like, yeah, and it tanked. Yeah. So it's just got this reputation of just burning cash, always being upside down, growing fast and tank it. Yeah. So we're trying to just create a real brand and a real household name. Yeah. And I go back to what I said at the beginning. I think you can only do that when you have a great product. Yeah. Because you can, you know, you can spike, but you're not going to sustain. Whereas if you have a great product, it's word of mouth, you know, and that's what I love about this.

And it's kind of in its own lane, like, yeah, okay, there might be another cactus water brand out there, but there's no— this is the cactus water brand.

I feel like we've definitely cornered the market as the, as the cactus water. Yeah. There are, I think, 4 or 5 more now. Yeah. Which once again, with my little experience in the, in the, in the space, I was immediately like, how can they do that? You know, there was, there was one in particular that when I say it's so like ours, we changed the packaging, they changed the packaging. We, we do the logos down the side, they put their logos down the side. Like, it's exactly the same. They will follow our move by move. And all people keep saying to me is, brother, imitation is a form of flattery, you know? Like, it's a good thing. Let them carry on. You know, it's, it's really annoying. Yeah. Um, even so much that I was so close to posting it on my Instagram the other day. What is going on? But I did. Um, but yeah, I mean, it's a, it's, it's a good thing that our category is growing, right? You want it, you want it to happen. I don't think it's a bad thing. And people in the space that I do respect tell me it's great because then, you know, the path to most beverages is you would like an acquisition. And a leader like a Pepsi or Coca-Cola or Dr Pepper or Nestlé or someone like that, they're not gonna buy into a brand new category in case it doesn't take off. They're gonna buy into a category when there's multiple players because it's not going anywhere. So, you know, it's all going in our favor. And then, you know, we now have kids pouches too, and that wasn't part of the business. It Pouches happened organically because kids were just drinking the drink and we're like, hang on, kids shouldn't buy this. This is a health drink. And yet, we brought in a kid's pediatrician, we tested it at a bunch of schools and preschools all the way up and we just got insane feedback. The kids were just loving it. So, we launched the pouches last year too.

So, what is the— people tend to think, I mean, I think people think that if you create a product and you put a celebrity behind it, it's like a guaranteed win. What's— I know you have a lot of celebrity investors. Yeah, yeah. But like, how do you actually leverage the celebrity roster to make the business more successful?

Yeah, it goes back to what I said. Like, they have to authentically want to be in on it. I think there was a day where, look, if we go back, you know, even to the beginning of like social media and things like that, it works so well, right? Like you and I could say today, what should we do? And we could say we do a, we do a desk, you know, a tabletop company and you stick a massive name on it. And it sells. People used to do it with buildings. Yeah. Um, it just doesn't work anymore because everyone's done it, right? Um, and, you know, people say to me, well, what about the Kardashians? There's wins. And I'm like, do you know about the 10 that didn't? You know, there's a lot that didn't. Yeah. Um, and that's not to disrespect them, that's just because the nature of what we're talking about is you, you need more. You need to like live and breathe it, and people see through the, the bullshit, you know? Um, So I would say the success of it is how authentic they are to the product, how much they really believe in it. We just launched a flavor last week, not last week, Saturday with Demi Lovato. And that happened because Demi, I've known Demi for, I don't know, 15 years. And Demi was having us, like she'd literally be like, oh my God, I'm out of CaliWater. The local stores ran out as well. Can you send us some product? So I knew she loved it. So that made sense, right? Like, it's got to— you've got to— you can't push it to make sense. It has to make sense. Yeah. And with that, how to, how to utilize them or how to get them involved. I mean, every scenario is different. You know, when they invest, when a celebrity invests and they get in the same deal as everyone else, it's hard to like push them to do anything, right? But you kind of find that they want to because if they've come into the product being proud of it and being, you know, excited about it, they kind of want to promote it. And I think if you create a cool group, like an eclectic mix of people, there's something fun about that too. Yeah, like I've had so many people meet through Cali War. Yeah, I like— friends have got movies with other actors through Cali War. You know, we do a Cali War event and then 2 months later my mate will be like, oh, I'm, I'm doing a movie with, you know, X, Y, or Z because we met them at the— yeah, it's, it's so great for that. And that's fun. That's what it— you know, I think the success to any brand, whether it's a a canned drink, whether it's a fashion brand, whatever it is, it's community, right? Like, even when you think about movies nowadays that go viral, like, those viral movies are because they've created that community that are just so obsessed with the film. If it's a musician, you know, that's their community. Um, and I think that's what, that's what you get when you, when you get the authenticity of a celebrity pushing it, because you get their community. But you're only going to get their community if they actually really believe in it, because if not, their community looks at it and is like, eh, you know, right? Yeah.

What are some of the other positive externalities of working with celebrities other than the exposure that you get from them posting online?

Um, a lot of the retailer stuff. I think it's nice if you activate them and that they're engaged. I think it's nice to show the retailers that they really care. I think it's nice to get them involved in in meetings and, you know, get the retailers to, to see how they really stand behind the product. Yeah, it's nice. Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, it's, you know, spreading the, spreading the word is, is always an important part, and it always, you know, stays an important part. And for some of ours, I mean, we have— there's investors of ours like the DJs Loud Luxury, um, Joe and Andrew, and they've been, they've been incredible because they go play a venue and they'll be just talking about Cali War, right? And I say to— because we also work well on-premise. I think that's what's exciting about the drink. We just launched like Gordon Ramsay restaurants nationwide. And we're the number one selling non-alcoholic drink in all the restaurants. And the number one—

They serve it in a can or do they pour it in a fancy cup?

They pour it in a fancy cup. It's on the menu. Yeah. It's Cali Water, cactus water. Yeah. But they pour it in a fancy cup 'cause it works great as a mocktail 'cause it's got a nice colour to it and you pour it over ice. Yeah. And then they also have it as a cocktail 'cause if you mix it with alcohol, it tastes great and it's like a low sugar hydrating cocktail. Ah. So there's so many avenues to take it, but the Loud Luxury guys have been great because they play a venue and then they come back and They'd be chanting and being like, do you have Kaliwar? And the, you know, the, the F&B manager would be like, no, what's that? And then boom, I'm on an email, you know, Monday morning with, you guys should be stocking Kaliwar. And, and that's, they're the kind of investors that you, you want, you know?

Has there been like any single notable big breaks you've had since starting this company? Um, yeah.

I mean, look, getting into retailers like Walmart. Yeah. You know, like Walmart for me is, you know, I'm English. Yeah. So like, I remember walking into my first Walmart being like, what is this? It literally felt like if you got a, you know, a grocery store and combined it with like Disneyland. Yeah. Where you just had everything that anyone could ever need. Yeah. And so for me then getting Walmart was just a huge, huge, you know, win.

Have you seen Buc-ee's? No, I haven't seen Buc-ee's. No. It's basically if you'd imagine what, you know, Texas is so large they made It's a gas station. Okay. But there's like 120 gas pumps and it's like a Walmart when you walk in. Wow. And I think they're on like 20 acres each and they're huge. Buc-ee's would be a good—

I need Buc-ee's. They are— Okay. They have a cold light problem too.

Although I don't know if their customers are really health conscious. You know, they're selling like those fried sugar-coated nuts. No, but that's the great—

the great thing about this product is I didn't want to create a health drink that you didn't enjoy, right? You know, I always say this, right? I drink kombucha. Yeah. If you put me on a lie detector machine and it went, do you like the taste of kombucha? And I said yes, it would be like, eh, like I lie to myself. I'm like, I'm going to grab myself a kombucha. Tastes like vinegar, right? It doesn't taste that great, but I like drinking it because I've made that correlation between my mind thinking that it's good for me because it has benefits, right? I wanted to create a health drink that has benefits, but you actually enjoy the taste. Yeah. You know, so many friends— I said this to you at the beginning of the interview— so many friends have said to me they've switched soda for, for CaliWater, which is great because people love their, their Diet Pepsi or people love their Coca-Cola. You know, that's part of their lifestyle and it's their treat. Yeah. They don't want to give that up because that's their treat in a day. But if you could give it up for something that was healthy and that was still a treat, that's the win. And that's what we wanted to create with the drink was like something that you're drinking that is good for you. But you don't feel like you're sacrificing something you enjoy, you know? Yeah.

I told you, I'm gonna give some of this to my mom 'cause she always travels with ginger ale. Right. You know, for her stomach if she gets nauseous. Yeah. I'm like, I don't think that's really good. I mean, maybe it's just in your head, but it's like—

Yeah, it's like our parents and their old school kind of like, you know, myths of like drink ginger ale.

Yeah, yeah, there's no way that's really good for your stomach.

It's got like 25 grams, 30 grams of added crappy sugar. Yeah, well, she'll be here tomorrow if the blizzard allows for it, so I'm gonna give her some. Give her some ginger and lime. She'll like it. Yeah, I will.

Talk to me about, you know, I'm really curious about kind of the movement through Hollywood as an actor, producer, and then getting into business. Can you just kind of walk me a little bit through your journey, you know, getting into Hollywood?

Yeah, well, I got signed there. I went to LA 22 years ago with the hopes of being a pop star. Mm-hmm. A singer. Yeah, singer. I had long blonde highlights and I looked very— I'll send you a pic. This is all video, right? I'll send you a picture. You can add it. Someone just texted me the other day. Made me laugh. Um, and, uh, yeah, my old— you know, that was, that was what I wanted to do. And then it was during a time where everyone was really young, you know. I was like 24 and every musician I met was 17. Yeah, you know, or 16 or 14. Wow. Um, it was that, you know, the Britney, the Christina Aguilera, the Jonas Brothers, you know, so many amazing people, you know. I had the pleasure of meeting through it throughout the years. But it made my mind think, you're too old, bro. Like, what are you— you should have made it 10 years ago. And, and I ended up quitting music. Um, and then, you know, different chapters. But I got offered— I had an incredible manager, a guy called Dick Scott, who was the guy that did like New Kids on the Block. He did Marky Mark when Mark Wahlberg was Marky Mark. And so he was very big in like making you get out of just the lane that you were in. So like with Marky Mark, it was Marky Mark, but he got in the Calvin Klein ad and he pushed him into modeling and became like— so he was always pushing me to do more. And, you know, I'd grown up in kind of theater and dance and done a lot of that stuff. So I got into acting school and I was already pursuing that. And then around that time, I got offered a hosting gig for a show, a new show at the time. It was kind of like the— I would say the groundbreaker of, like, online platform. Like, it was called Young Hollywood. And it kind of— they were syndicated a bit through TV Guide. But it was, it was really, uh, I would say ahead of its time, um, before like, you know, a lot of streamers tapped in. It was kind of doing its thing online. And so I stepped in as a host and I had, you know, my own kind of talk show with them for 8, 9, 9 years, thousands of interviews. Um, and then I did a lot for Dick Clark as well, which is the American Music Awards, the Grammys, the Billboard.

You were interviewing artists?

Yeah, I was, I was the host. Gotcha. So I hosted all of that. I interviewed artists, actors. Um, obviously then the world changed a bit, and then it was like artists, actors, YouTubers, you know, everything, influencers, young Hollywood. Yeah, thousands of interviews. Um, and I met some incredible people, you know. Um, at that time I was also— I got offered a gig to be the ambassador for a fashion brand called All Saints, and then that led my path down that road of then I guess the best way to put it is sticking my nose in, right? Like I was, once again, the mind, right? Like I'd see some of the content and I'd think, "We could do better." I'd see some of the people that they were dressing or the shoots they were doing. And I just started to stick my nose in more. And luckily, you know, had friends around me and business people that trusted me to stick my nose in a bit more. And that's what happened. And then became, you know, a shareholder in the company. And then with that, we then acquired John Varvatos and And I've done a lot with that brand now. And it kind of just— the best way I like to put it is Hollywood is a lot of unknown, right? Like, I was used to that feeling of just like, it's exciting. It's like my life could change overnight, but also really stressful. Yeah. Because what's next? I have no idea. You know? Even when you are working, you know, that's the bit people don't understand. You can come off being the lead of a movie And then go back to auditioning. Yeah. People say— I remember when I came to Hollywood, people were like, "Only 1% of actors are working regularly." I don't think it's 1%. I think it's like 0.0001%. I mean, you can be on a TV show and be regular for 6 months, but then that ends, you know? So, it's such an up-and-down industry that I feel like, for me, as soon as I got that itch in business, I was like, oh, I like this. Well, I want—

I want to real quick, before we get into the business side, I'm really curious what makes— there's so many people that want to be actors and actresses, you know, call it less than 1% actually are working full-time. What is that it factor that makes certain people stand out more than others? What is it? Can't just be looks, can't just be there.

It's definitely, definitely not just looks. I mean, it's, you know, it's talent. And I, you know, I don't want to be criticized for this, but it's luck. Yeah, it is luck. It's luck and timing, you know, right place, right time, right moment. Okay, what is luck? There's films that are— there's films that go viral and launch an actor, and let's be honest, if we watch the film and was— was that great? Yeah. Was there not 10 other movies that year that were without a doubt better? Yeah. But they didn't get its moment. There's an element of luck there. Yeah. Um, and when you say what is luck, I mean, I've always been a person that says like there's kind of two types of paths for people, right? There's people that go down a path and it's all roses and everything just works out well, and, and, and that's amazing, and, and that's not luck, it's their path. And then there's people that go down the other path and their life isn't as amazing, and it comes with a few punches and a few struggles. But if you carry on going down that path and you push and push and push and you don't give up, you'll eventually hit the same path as them, right? So for some, you know, whether you call it like— whether you just call it life or whatever, there's that. And there's some that go down that. But I believe that the paths meet. The only difference is this path, you've got to be persistent. Yeah, you've got to keep pushing. Yeah. And that's the difference, I think, especially in Hollywood and things like that, is so many people give up. Um, because of the mindset, because of like exactly what I went through. I'm too old. Yeah, I'm not this, I'm not good enough, it hasn't happened yet. Yeah. And then there's some that don't give up, and that's why you hear those stories of like a Harrison Ford or someone like that, and people like, he didn't make it till his 40s, or he didn't make it till his 50s. Well, if you look back, he was in acting school when he was 18, so there was something in them that just wouldn't give up. Yeah. Um, and then there's people that, let's face it, come to Hollywood, first audition boom, you know, and they're collecting an Oscar a year later. Yeah. So yeah, it's hard to call it luck. I just, I just believe it's whatever their path is meant to be. Yeah. But if you carry on persisting, you'll eventually have some success, you know.

Um, this is a bit of a deeper question, but why do you believe that certain people have the path that just works and other people, you know, have to really struggle and get to where they have to go?

Uh, because it's how it's meant to be. I have no— you know, I have no idea. Yeah, I don't know. It's, it's just part of our— you know, as you say, other things are at play. It's just that's how it's meant to be. Yeah, it is what it is, right? The acceptance of this is my path and I'm going to keep pushing. And then who knows, like, you might push for the first 5 years and then it does click. You might push for 50 years and it clicks. You might, might— you might disappear after 5 years. It might never click. I think it's just like if you love something enough, you'll continue to push for it, you know?

Would you correlate, you know, going back a little bit to what we were talking about earlier, you know, you have discipline, you show up for yourself, the voice inside of your head starts to root for you. And you've spent time with a lot of really incredible people. Do they, do they tend to have that? Do they have that? No, that will, that discipline.

I would say the funny thing is I'm laughing because in business I would say yes. Right? Like, I'm surrounded by people that— and don't get me wrong, there's some that just, you know, made it because they made it, right? Um, but the, the people I'm around that just work and you see them have so much success, they're getting up, they're showing up, they're, they're up every morning, they're on time, they're, they're, they're, they're moving, they're doing what they say they're gonna do. Um, I feel like in the industry in entertainment is different because there's still people I know that like are stupidly successful and they can't even figure out how to get from A to B in an Uber, you know what I mean? Like there's something like, I'm like, how? But it is what it is, you know? Like it doesn't, it doesn't add up a lot of the time. It doesn't add up. Um, and maybe that's the case in, in every business, but definitely I've seen it more in entertainment and less in business because I think in business is less forgiving. Right? Yeah. Like, you can be smart as anything, you can be, you know, stupidly wealthy, but there's always someone that's smarter and more wealthy. And if you turn up to that meeting and you're half an hour late and you don't care and you don't give a shit and you're like, you know, this was the biggest deal of the century and you were late for it. Yeah. Guy that's about to acquire your company probably doesn't care. Yeah. Um, in entertainment, it just seems a little bit more forgiving. But then there's elements of that that I know that if you turned up to a meeting late with a director, they wouldn't like it either. So a lot of it just doesn't make sense.

Do you think— so like, I'll give you an example. You know, many years ago I had a, um, like an education business where we would do group coaching calls and we had, you know, a couple thousand people in the program and new people would be coming in every week and we would start a call. And when someone was new, I had a really good kind of radar of is this person going to succeed or not, you know, in the business that they're starting. And it wasn't, you know, who was the smartest, it wasn't even necessarily who was working the hardest or who had access to the most information. It was generally if you were excited— Of course. —versus if you were skeptical. And it was like that inner dialogue was, "Oh, I can't wait to try this," or, "I can't wait until this works," versus— Yeah, yeah, yeah. "Yeah, you know, there's no way this is gonna work, but I'm gonna just try it a little bit." And it was the excited people that would always succeed and the skeptical people that would always fail. Of course. Do you think that inner— in the entertainment world, do you think that inner dialogue of the most successful people generally seems to be kind of more excited and optimistic.

Yeah. But as I say, I think there's all— entertainment is strange in the way there's all different kinds of characters from all different walks of life. Yeah. But I would say, I do believe that passion over anything always makes success. Yeah. It goes back to what I said, if you love it enough, if you're passionate, that drives you enough to eventually get— yeah, you know, might not be where you wanted, but it's pretty close.

Yeah. And also in entertainment, like, yeah, you might be famous and you might make a lot of money, but you see a lot of people that have incredible lives and everyone loves them, and there's people that end up committing suicide. There's people that end up, you know, that from the outside— yeah, yeah. I mean, look at, like, I mean, I don't want to, you know, talk— I don't know what these people are like. Look at Britney Spears, for example. I'm sure every teenage girl 20 years ago or 15 years ago would've said, "Oh, I'd do anything to be her." And her life seems to be relatively painful now.

But I think that's where, like, once again, the outside, right? The outside for someone like her going through it, but the outside of what we see as well. You know, what we see looks incredible and looks amazing. And it's like, how can you not— want that and be happy. Yeah. And then when you're in it and you're inside, you're like, right, I'm not— my life— I have no— my privacy's gone. Yeah. I'm judged every single day by millions of people. I don't know the pressure of like— and by the way, I'm guessing right now, right? I didn't, you know, didn't spend every day with Britney, but like releasing a song and it being the biggest song in the world, and then the pressure of going back in a studio and having to make another song that will be the best in the world again so you're not called a failure. There's a lot of things— doesn't mean like I'm saying people should feel bad. Yeah, because that's the disconnect as well. And people are like, well, I mean, I have a lot harder life. It's not that, it's just like every journey is different, right? It doesn't— and that's where like the outside is just the outside, right? The outside meaning like if we're searching for things on the outside to make us feel better or if people are looking from the outside, it's not reality, right? Right. The reality is what's here right now and what's actually going on inside. Um, and that's where, of course, like, whether, you know, if I was still striving to try and fix the insides with outsides, and I said to you, I'm going to release an album next week, and I released the album and it became like number one album in the world, and I was touring doing stadiums It would give me a high, I'm sure, for a bit, but eventually that high is going to end, you know, because eventually you've played every stadium, you know, you've had hundreds of thousands of people screaming at you. Now you've had that high, you've had people shouting your name. Now what do you do? Right now you need something else. Yeah, now you need drugs. Yeah, now you need alcohol. Now you need something else to fuel that high, you know. You're chasing the high. Yeah, and the highs the highs are always there, but then they're in different forms. Yeah. You know, and that's when it gets dangerous. Yeah. Then suddenly you, you run out of options of a high, right? Right. And then you're lost. And then you're sitting in a room being like, what happened to my life? My life's over. And it's not over, right? Like, that's the thing. From an outside, yeah, you're like, you know, your life's not over. Yeah. You're, you've still got an amazing home, you've got friends that love you, you've got people that love you. But in your own internal dialogue, you don't feel anymore. You're not getting that same rush that you used to get from the external thing, from the, from the, the award, from the girl, from the car, from the jewelry, you know what I mean? Like, and then you're lost because you're like, what do I do now? And that's when the mind starts going, I want out, I want to give up. I've been there, you know. It's like, it's, it's— and no one, you know, and as I say, I was going through it in a place in my life where I was living in the house in the Hollywood Hills, I was driving, you know, my Range Rover, I was, you know, around some of the world's most famous people, going on, you know, people's private jets and yachts and this and that. And anyone that was looking from the outside would have thought, wow, that is probably one of the lucky— but I guarantee people from my hometown didn't think it. I'm from a little, little town from, you know, south of England, that I was the luckiest man in the world. And yet I was in a place where I was like, I just want out, you know. So it's not about how can someone feel that way when they have X or when they have this. It's about how they're feeling just because how they feel, you know.

And that's where the journey begins really at that point, right? It's like, what is life? That's where you dive into the self-discovery. Yeah. One thing that really struck a chord with me recently was, um, I don't know if you saw the news about— I think it was Prince Andrew, uh, in the Epstein files.

I haven't read a lot of it, I've got to be honest.

So I, I don't— I haven't read a lot of it either. I was in the gym the other day and they had, you know, the—

it was on. But I do know it exists because my mom brought it up. My parents got in from London yesterday. Yeah. And the first thing they said when they arrived at my, my place in Miami was like, have you seen the stuff about Prince Andrew?

So yeah, it struck a chord in me because 'cause if you had asked anyone on the planet, you know, do you wanna be Prince Andrew? Or like most, almost anyone would've said he probably has an amazing life. But then when you think about it, for the last probably 10 years, who knows the kind, I don't, and by the way, I don't know what he did. I'm not saying he did anything. Just based on what I saw, if he did the things that he's accused of doing, the pain and suffering and guilt and shame that that man was experiencing for that many years of his very short life, It's like, I would rather have any life than that life. But from the outside, almost anyone would've said, "Oh, I would love to have that guy's life." Of course. That struck a chord with me. It's like, okay, yeah, he's still got money and, you know, fame and notoriety. But if he had really done those, if he did those horrible things, like imagine what it feels like to be that person.

Of course, of course. And guilt and shame is, you know, is a horrible thing to deal with.

Which tells me, and I think is a good point, that it's like you have a lot to be grateful for in your own life, no matter where you sit today, because you're not comparing yourself to other people's real lives. You're only comparing it to their external lives.

Not all the time, but still have my moments. I still, I think it's a blessing. I'm lucky enough to be around some really successful people. But sometimes when you're around really successful people, that voice does kick in, right? Like, ah, you thought you were doing well, look at how well they're doing, you know? So it's always, as I say, it's not a switch that just happens and you're like, I'm fine now, right? It's just how— it's like when you're on your walk, right, or on your run, sorry, and the voice says you should stop now, you're tired. It's the same thing of like when that voice has its moment the, the, the moment isn't as long, right? It's like I can diffuse and be like, shut up, I'm good, you know, I'm good, I don't need this. Yeah, so I'm happy where I am, you know what I mean? Um, so it's still there, but it's just, uh, it's just different. Um, yeah, at least for today. Yeah.

How have you become someone that— I mean, like, I saw you in photos with Will Smith, Jay-Z, I think it was, uh What's his name? Guru— Gurudev.

Gurudev. Yeah, Ravi Shankar, incredible man.

Your business partner, you know, you're with Demi Lovato. You're with all these like really successful, really famous people. What about you do you think is attractive to those types of people? Because by the way, and let me frame the question.

Yeah.

Because everyone's trying to get the attention of those type of people, right? If you see, if there's a group of people and someone like that is there, everyone's trying to take a picture with them or trying to do whatever they could to become friends with that person. There's millions of people that want to know those people. Yeah. What about you is attractive to that type of person?

Yeah. I guess just being completely— I'm always a fan of just saying what comes straight to my mind and try not to filter it. The funny thing is when you were listing out those people, most of those people I've cried to at some point in my life. I swear, most of those people I've had a moment with, you know. Um, so maybe vulnerable, you know, be vulnerable because there's, there's honesty in that, you know. There's like, it's like, you know, we get nothing from pretending. I don't get anything and you don't, right? If I want to, like, goes back to what I said about friendships. If you want to just try and pretend that everything's great, then you're just going to have a surface level friendship with somebody. You're never going to really get to know them and they're never going to get to know you. And so literally the people that you just mentioned, yeah, I've, I've, I've, uh, I've cried to most of them. That's actually really— other than Jay-Z, yeah, I've cried, I've cried to most of them. Um, and I think that's why, you know, you, you have friendships, is because you can open up and, and then they feel more comfortable to open up with you. And it's like, you know, you, you have something real. Yeah. Um, and, and just because of the bubble I'm in happens to be people, you know, in the industry and stuff. Yeah. But I also have, you know, amazing friends outside of the industry. I also have— and when I say amazing friends, I don't mean because of success, I just mean because they're amazing human beings. Um, and, and I think we can learn from everyone. Like, I think that's a point that I'd love to make, is like, so much of my life I thought I could only learn from people that were like more established or more— and it's like some of the best wisdom comes from people that you know, might be delivering an Amazon package at your house today, you know, and that's it, right? It just takes a small little connection to get to know someone and you never know what that person might teach you.

Yeah, I think radical vulnerability is something to really lean in on, you know, and I like to reflect on my own journey on conversations like this. You know, early on you're around the people, you know, that you grew up with, whatever, and there maybe is a lot of negativity and you're like, I want to be around more positive people. And then you get into like the people that want to be entrepreneurs and everyone's making it like their life's great. How you doing? Oh, amazing, amazing, amazing. And then you kind of get to a level of people that actually have real authentic success. And I'll call people like that that I'm friends with and it's like, what's going on? And they're like, man, I've had a rough week. And it's like, there's radical vulnerability in that, which gives way for progress in a relationship. That's the only way to really progress in a relationship. You got to remove all the bullshit and the fakeness if you want to develop real relationships with people. You just have to be real. But people don't get me wrong, whenever—

when your phone rings, every time, don't pick it up with everyone being like, I'm struggling, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, there's an element of— of course you've got to still play the game a bit. Um, but that's where you find your people, you know? You find your people And, and you— I feel like in your gut you kind of know that, you know. You know the people that you can be real with, and, you know, sometimes it takes a little bit longer to figure that out, but I always feel like instantly you're like, I can, I can just shoot the shit with this person, you know. I can just say how it is, you know. And then there's other people that, you know, like, okay, they're, they're kind of here with you, so you'll be here with them, and you're like, how you doing? I'm like, I'm good, everything's great, you great? And they're like, yeah, I'm great, I'm crushing. And you're like, good, enjoy your week, catch up soon. Yeah, I'll send over my deck, you send over your deck, and we'll keep it there, you know? Yeah. So it's just navigating that, you know?

Yeah. But I do think leaning into vulnerability is something that allows for a lot of growth and progress. 100%. I think most people are scared to lean into vulnerability because they're scared of being judged. Yeah, of course.

And, and look, I, I was guilty of that, you know? And as I said, I still have my moments, but like the mask that we all put on, and then it got to, got to a point for me where I wore the mask so much that I actually started to believe everything was fine even though I was dying on the inside. So the more you check in with yourself and others and actually be true to what's going on, the more you're going to grow from it.

So back to where our original topic was here, pivoting from acting. And actually, I do want to double-click into that a little bit. You've had some pretty cool acting roles. Was that a large chapter of your life where you were really focused on that?

I mean, it's still a big chapter of my life. I still love it. For me, it's like, that will never go away, right? That excitement that I get from being on set and making a movie, or making a TV show, whatever it is, it's that little kid in me. That's what I grew up— that was my core, you know? I loved it. I was on stage since I was, you know, 4 years old. That feeling never goes away. You know, even when I think it's gone away, and then a friend will be like, "Hey, bro, do you wanna come over to Bulgaria? There's this— you know, we'd love you in this movie. It's 2 and a half, 3 weeks or something." And I'll be like, "Yeah, I'll jump over there." and I'll be on the flight and I'll be like, "Why am I doing this? I have so much business stuff going on." And then you get to set, and immediately you get that rush. And then the director's like, "Right, action!" And you're like— Nothing beats it, you know? So, I'm at the point in my life where I'm purely doing it out of love. Like, I love the craft, you know? And I think that's with anything. It's funny because when that started to happen for me, I started to work more. And I think— like, you know, two factors of that because I'm showing up because I love it. And that's kind of— I feel like a lot of the directors I've worked with, I've worked with again. And if I haven't worked with again, I probably will work with again because they know, they can tell you love it. You know, you're not complaining, you're not on set. Of course, there's part of the industry that frustrates us all, like this hurry-up-and-wait thing. Like, you know, you're in your trailer at 5:00 AM, you get called to set at 2:00 PM. But you start to just— just that stuff doesn't affect you. You just love it. That's why you're there. Um, and then the fact that like the pressure was taken off a little bit, right? So like, and I'm fortunate for that, I'm very grateful for that. But like when I go into an audition, I'm not having to go into the audition thinking, if I don't get this job, I'm homeless. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Um, and that definitely takes the pressure off. Yeah. Don't get me wrong, I still— you still get those nerves because there's something around like just, you know, You're putting your rawness out there for someone to judge. But that changed a lot for sure. And now, yeah, as I said, I still do. I had a movie come out 2, 3 days ago called Misdirection that I actually produced and starred in with Frank Grillo and Olga Kurylenko.

I was just looking at that online before we started here. Yeah, it's fun.

It's like an hour and a half fun little action thriller. Very cool.

You produced that.

Produced that too. Produced that one. That's the most I've ever produced a movie. Like, when I've produced before, it's normally been around, like, financing, you know, finding the money for a film, helping produce from kind of, like, the outside. This movie in particular, you know, I found the script. Um, the script went through different sets of producers that optioned it. Nothing happened. I was meant to be leading the movie, and it kept changing hands. And eventually, I was like, "I'm just gonna do it myself." Wow. And so I did. And with that, it meant, like, I had to then learn every part of producing, like how you package a film, how, you know, finding out about tax incentives, where we're gonna shoot it, then working with the crews in a completely new country where I know no one, because we have to work there to get the tax credit. And all these things that come into play, the pressure of, like, you know, all the stars aligning to actually get the movie on set and in production. And then even when it's in production, I'm, like, working as an actor, but then something goes wrong, and now we're going into overtime, and that's budget that we don't have. Have, um, so many factors. But I do say, I think it's such a, it's such a blessing to, to have that because, you know, there's a reason why a lot of successful business people I know, like, you know, talk about fashion brands, right? There's so many. I would say the ones that I really respect, like, you'll hear from them, right? And they'll be like, yeah, you know, I own this brand and I also worked in the store, right? Or, you know, a restaurant, right? I, I own the restaurant chain now, but yeah, in the beginning I was you know, managing the reservations, or whatever it is, it gives you knowledge in a way that also, I think, comes with compassion and understanding that you don't get just by being told it. You know, when someone would say to me as an actor, and I'll turn up on set and I'll be like, "Look, you've got me working Monday and Tuesday, and then I work again Friday. Why can't you just move me to Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and then I can go back to England for the weekend or whatever?" Right? Because I'm looking at a thing being like, "This schedule makes no sense." Then you realize that little change that you're asking for has such a ripple effect, and it costs so much money, even though it seems like one scene. And so you just understand a lot more. So it just keeps you to, you know, I guess, keep your mouth shut a little bit more, just do the work, you know. But you can't, you can't tell someone that because people told me that, oh, it's not that easy. You don't know it's not easy until you've tried it yourself. Yeah. So I think that's the same in business. Like I said, like, you don't know how hard it is to to, you know, be a chef in a kitchen or be serving tables or to be a barman behind a bar and the stress that comes with it. Because it all looks great from the outside when the guy's just, you know, pouring bottles and handing drinks over. Like, there's elements of learning, you know, knowledge is power, right? And knowledge is key. Because I think when people say knowledge is power, even when I said that, I don't think it's about power. I think it's about like knowledge gives you compassion and understanding, which ultimately is power, right?

Love that. Talk to me about the, the involvement that you got, um, in the, the human trafficking nonprofit. What was it called?

Against human trafficking, just to clarify, because there's a touchy subject right now. I just want to say against human trafficking.

Um, what was it called again?

The Not For Sale. Not For Sale. Yeah, there's an incredible organization started by a guy called David Batstone. Um, it's been, you know, when I say that I remember the first event I was at, a very small event with Dave, and he was talking about the numbers, you know, the numbers that exist today in the world around slavery and human trafficking. And it was just like, huh? Well, tell me some. I mean, the stats are insane. I don't know, I don't have the current stats off my mind, but it will blow your mind. And especially, by the way, even in the US, it will blow your mind. Slavery? Yes. Well, human trafficking, which ultimately is part of slavery. Yeah. And I heard that and I was just chatting to him afterwards and he was like, "Yeah, this is real." And I was like, "How can I get involved? How can I help the mission?" And so I started to, and we've done a lot around the awareness to it. We've got a shelter in Thailand that was their first ever shelter that they built. And the goal of it is not just to you know, when you pull someone that's out of being trafficked or someone that's been, you know, sex trafficked or anything like that, it's hard if you don't give them an avenue to a future life, right? It's like a rubber band. You know, you pull the rubber band, and if there's not an end goal, it just kind of pings back. Not all the time, but a lot of the time. So Not For Sale do a lot by creating employment opportunities for a lot of victims. They do everything from from that to helping them with immigration status and things like that. So, it's been amazing for me. And then away from that, I've then— that led me onto other things. And I've done a docuseries called Unmuted, which we filmed an episode of the documentary in India, which was against forced child marriage because the ripple effect of that, the forced child marriage, then they end up in trafficking. And it's— for me, it's an important— I've always liked the give-back element. Um, not in a way of because it looks good on me, right? Like, maybe, maybe in the beginning there was an element of that, like, I'm, I'm doing this for charity, it makes me a special person. Um, now I don't even really post about it as much, um, just because I'm really doing it because I believe it's the right thing to do. Yeah. When someone says, can you show— you know, I was on the board of the Skid Row Housing Trust in LA, and we used to do a lot about around the homeless issue there. Like, it's just about like doing it because you feel it's the right thing to do. And also the benefits that I get from it as a human being, right? Like, you talk about the obsession of the mind. Yeah. Go volunteer at a shelter near you or go volunteer at a, you know, a homeless, uh, into, you know, uh, for the homeless and go give out donation bags. You'll soon stop that mind, you know, right? That voice is telling you that you're not good enough and your life sucks. Yeah. And you know that You go do something for others. That's what they say, it's the best thing you can do. I find it better than any therapy, you know. I, I can sit with a therapist for an hour and talk and chat, and I can talk about how bad my life is and get a bit of understanding, and we can go back and forth, and I can leave there being like, you know, better.

Yeah.

Um, you go do something like that for others and you see what other people are dealing with, and, and you leave there being like, wow, like, yeah, I'm so lucky to be where I am, you know.

It doesn't have to be that extreme. Like, I, I, of course, I wasn't— yeah, I got my blood blood drawn one time and I was in the waiting room. There was like 9 people in the waiting room and there's one woman working and she was all frantic. And I went to get my blood done and I'm like, "How are you doing?" And she's like, "Oh, I'm all stressed out. I didn't have a chance to stop and get my sweet tea this morning." In my head I'm like, "Well, you probably shouldn't be drinking sweet tea in the morning, but I'm sorry to hear that." And I saw how stressed and how she was not enjoying her day at all. And I left. And something inside of me was like, "I'm gonna go get this woman a sweet tea." It was like a very small act. Like I literally drove across the street, spent $1, drove back, and I walked in with the sweet tea and she looked at me and she started crying. And it was like, and I say this because it made me feel so good for that. Like it was like, you couldn't get that feeling from going and buying something or doing something cool or making money. But that feeling is priceless.

That same feeling of what we're chasing of like that high you can get by doing something for someone else.

It can be such a simple little thing.

And then it's like a win-win. And I think the more we do that as humanity, the more like life will just get better for everyone.

100%. So, how are these organizations actually finding victims of human trafficking?

Well, Not For Sale, a big part of their story, there was this, there's this lady called Phu Lam. Who's an incredible woman, Thailand, based in Chiang Rai. And there used to be a lot of, you know, it's a known thing, there's a lot of issues around sex trafficking in Thailand and some of these bars and, you know, places that, you know, do bad things is probably the best way to put it. And she would go into these homes and— or not homes, in these bars, and pull these girls out and bring them to her house. And eventually, it became like, And don't quote me on this, but there was like 30 people, kids in her house. Like, she was known in the area as being like this woman that would just save these kids and save these— I say kids all the way up to teenagers and everything else. And so they had— Dave Batstone and that had heard about it, and that's when they, you know, decided to get involved and confront the issue and then realize that it's not just in places like Thailand, it's all over the world. It's in Europe, it's in the UK, it's in US, it's, you know, it's everywhere. It's something exists that I think people like to sweep under the rug because it's, you know, ignorance is bliss, right? They prefer not to talk about it, but they help, obviously, you know, that's, that's how it kind of works is like putting an end to, you know, what's— and a lot of time, like I said, they don't, they don't have an out. Yeah. So it's like you're on the cycle, you know? Yeah. So this stuff is happening in the US? Happening in the US, yeah.

What's something about human trafficking in the US that people probably don't know?

Um, that in itself, you know, that people are being trafficked. There's borders, right? There's, there's, there's people coming in. I actually see it, I see it more than ever now when I'm walking through an airport. I think actually Palm Beach Airport, you're walking through the airport, you'll see signs now that says— I can't remember the warning sign itself, but it's if you see anything suspicious. Yeah. If you see someone, you know, yeah, and you know, that's, that's, that's what happens. So that's when there's signs in an airport in like Palm Beach or wherever you are, that's when you know it's right on your doorstep, you know, because those signs don't go up unless there's something actually happening.

Yeah, so it's crazy to think about because it's not something that people reckon, you know, regularly witness or—

yeah, like it's not just the usual place where the— where mine goes, right? It's not just sex trafficking, it's not that. It's like the slavery angle, right? If people are bringing in workers and then treating them really badly and and, you know, saying to them, if you leave, you know, you'll go to jail. Or, you know, it's that kind of manipulation that comes with it, you know.

Yeah, maybe a, you know, not normal topic to talk about, but in Hollywood specifically, you hear conspiracy theories about, you know, certain big actors and whatnot that do messed up things with kids or, you know, at parties. Have you ever seen anything like that?

Have you ever— nothing.

I'm assuming if you had seen it, you would have done something about it.

Yeah, no, nothing. Nothing. Never seen it. I don't really— I don't want to say I don't pay attention to it because obviously it's out there, but I don't really— I don't know. I don't know enough to give any comment on it.

Yeah, I didn't think so, but you know, you never know.

You never know. It'll be an interesting topic. You never know who's around us, you know. Yeah, it's true. Where are your cam— I'm looking at the camera guys right now. No, I'm kidding.

So, this has been great. I got a few questions to wrap up. Go for it. For you, as, you know, someone who's succeeded in many different areas, what's a fear that you still hold on to?

If I'm finding enough balance in life, you know? I'm still— my problem is that I love what I do. But then I spend my day doing a lot of what I do, and then I'll be like, it's 10 PM and I'd love to watch a movie or something, and I put my head on the pillow and I fall asleep. And then I do exactly the same thing the next day. So I'm always trying to find that balance because I don't want to get to that place where friends of mine have got to, even one recently, where they get diagnosed with something that they can't change and they suddenly get this feeling of peace because they're not chasing anymore. Goes back to what we talked about. So, sometimes that fear in my mind is that, like, when should I stop? But it's hard to stop when you love what you do. So, it's that. That's probably the best way to fear, you know? Yeah.

Yeah. If everything disappeared for you tomorrow, movies, businesses, you know, shows you've produced, what's left?

My mum and dad and a cup of tea and playing Bananagrams with mum. I love that. If people don't know what that game is, it's brilliant. Bananagrams. It's a real game. Yeah, it's like Scrabble, but it comes in a banana package and you play these tiles. I've just plugged it, but it's not— I'm not an investor, nothing to do with Bananagrams. I just love playing it with mum, and I probably don't get to do it enough. Um, actually, as you, as you know, they're visiting, so I'm gonna play Bananagrams with mum tonight. Love that. There you go. Amazing.

What does the next 10, 20 years look like for you? Uh, I have no idea.

I have no idea. I actually have no idea. I'd love to exit this, love to sell this because it's my baby. Other than that, just keep— I love investing in startups and founders. I probably do it too much. I've lost a lot of money by doing it. But I also try and pay it forward because if people didn't invest in me, I wouldn't have the life I have. Yeah. Um, and I've not always got it right either. Yeah. So I think I enjoy that. I enjoy that kind of buzz, the right— that's my rush, I guess. Yeah. Um, so I continue to do more of that. I'd like to forever continue acting and making movies. Um, but I do have to find that balance because it does get really tough when you're like, you know, filming in Bulgaria 6 to 6, rushing back on calls, waking up filming again. You know, I did a bunch of that last year where it got to a point where I was like, this is not healthy, you know? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, this has been great, mate. Such a pleasure. Thank you so much. Of course.