2480 FBF: Investor Mindset & DuckDuckGo Founder, Super Thinking Mental Models & Traction, How Any Startup Explosive Growth by Gabriel Weinberg

Today we have Flashback Friday and a 10th episode show. All of you regular listeners know that every 10th episode we do a topic of general interest. It always seems to relate to finance and success in life and success with our portfolios, but the topics are more general every 10th episode show. And today we combine a Flashback Friday with a 10th episode. This show is produced by the Hartman Media Company. For more information and links to all our great podcasts, visit hartmanmedia.com.

If you're that kind of person and you've got the capital and you're a great negotiator, you've got great people skills, you, you could probably be a successful flipper. But it's like a job, right? If you're not flipping, you're not making money. And that's why I prefer income property because you just make money every month.

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Welcome to episode 1240, 1-2-4-0. Thank you for joining us today. We are going to talk about super thinking, and we've got the founder of DuckDuckGo, DuckDuckGo, the search engine, on the show today. This is a 10th episode show, and when I was in Europe, I finished his book called Superthinking: The Big Book of Mental Models. It is excellent, and I recommend it. So check that out. I think you'll enjoy his interview today. But first, I've got Adam here with me, and Adam wants to talk about how he is, uh, getting preyed upon to sell his properties, right, Adam?

A little bit, yeah. I mean, I don't know about Everybody else, but since we've purchased our properties, we've been getting phone calls and everything from people who want to buy our properties.

And you were mentioning— I get them all the time. My mom gets them all the time. Yeah.

And at first I just hung up on them or didn't answer their texts because I figured, hey, you know, go away. But then recently I've started answering them because I think, hey, you know, maybe they're interested. But I got one the other day that struck me as something that we as investors need to think about and change our mindset. And what it was is this, this person, his name is, or their name is Orlando. I don't know if that's a male or female, but I'm just going to say male for now. And he said, I'm reaching out to see if you're the owner of the property. If so, are you interested in selling? And for the record, we're not. But hey, why not? And I said, how much are you offering? And his response is $20,000. And it's a sight unseen offer.

And of course, your property is worth way more than $20,000.

And I replied, I said, absolutely not. This is a rehabbed cash flowing rental. And they said, okay, what's the lowest amount that you would take? Which I hate as an offering. They say, what's the lowest you'll take? I'm not going to tell you that. And I said, probably this amount would get it done. And then this is the comment that drove me up a wall. He said, definitely can't pay that much for the home. I'm an investor, so of course I would have to get it at a discounted price. How much is it rented for? And my response to him was, investors don't need to get it at a discounted price. They need to get a fair price. The house is rented for this much, so 1% of what we're asking. And that was the the basic, and he didn't really respond after that. But that was the important mindset that I feel like we as investors need to get rid of. As investors, you don't have to get it at the discounted price as long as, as the commandment says, it makes sense the day you buy it. You're probably not getting hosed on the deal.

Right, right. Well, you know, investors, and listen, I do this to myself all the time. People tell me I. I have the gift of being a good negotiator, and sometimes I negotiate myself right out of the deal. So don't read too many books on negotiation or become a good negotiator because— and I'm not talking about properties, I'm talking about everything in life, you know— because people that try to get things at a good deal, so to speak, or at a discount, usually don't get anything at all.

Okay.

That's, that's the reality of it. I mean, look, occasionally we all get a good deal on something, no question about it, but If your mindset is that you've got to buy everything at a discount, that you've got to be a bottom feeder, that you've got to win in the deal, and you don't, as the saying goes, leave a little meat on the bone for the other party, you're not going to do any deals. I mean, you might do one, but it'll be a hard-fought deal. It'll be a hard-won deal. You know, if you want to do business right, you got to come to the marketplace thinking about a win-win deal. Granted, we all get a little better deal sometimes. Occasionally, you know, you get that once-in-a-lifetime great deal, but this is not the reality of things. We've talked a lot about the Warren Buffett mentality over the years, and, you know, I have this like love-hate relationship with Warren Buffett. I think he's a bit of a hypocrite for sure. You know, I'm not into the stock market, and, you know, there's a lot of misnomers about what he says, does, thinks, etc. But His concept is that the deal, as long as it's a solid deal going in, he knows that all he has to do is wait a couple years and it becomes a really good deal. You don't necessarily get the good deal upon signing the contract. You get the good deal by waiting a couple of years after you sign the contract. Then the deal becomes very good if you bought it as a solid deal.

And it might've been a fair price had the house just been like a slab with a couple of falling pieces of wood off it. But once they hear this is a rehab property that's cash flowing, you can't expect to get something like that at a low, low price. Now, our local market specialists, they buy houses at what you might consider a discount, but in reality they're not because they have to go in and dump a bunch of money in.

Right.

So it's kind of one of those things that if you want quality, You're probably gonna have to pay for quality.

Yeah, good point. And you know, it's interesting because probably everybody listening who is a client of ours, they have purchased properties and they're receiving all the famous yellow postcards, right? I don't see those as much now, but I mean, my mailbox is full of these things every month, okay? Letters, and, and it's amazing how sophisticated these guys are getting. My mom, just the other day, she showed me one that she got. She says, Jason, this really impressed me, this letter I got, or this flyer I got offering to buy one of my houses. And she shows it to me and she says, look, it had a picture of the house on the front. And I opened the flyer and, you know, it just says, we want to buy your house. But it really made me pay attention because there was a picture of my house on it. And so these are these companies that do, um, variable printing. And so it'll basically pull a database from Google Street View, for example, put a picture of the house on it and then personalize the mailer, you know, dear Adam, right, for example, or dear Jason, and, uh, you know, do you want to sell your house at 123 Elm Street? People will pay attention to that because it's really a picture of their real house. It's big data. Exactly, big data.

Yeah.

Today we have Flashback Friday and a 10th episode show. All of you regular listeners know that every 10th episode we do a topic of general interest. It always seems to relate to finance and success in life and success with our portfolios, but the topics are more general every 10th episode show. And today we combine a Flashback Friday with a 10th episode house stalking. House stalking. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Well, good stuff. Any other thoughts or lessons? You know, I was just texting with one of those people the other day that was bugging me to sell one of my properties, and it's kind of entertaining to respond.

It really is. We actually had somebody call me the other day to see if we were interested in selling, and they asked how much we would want for the house, and my response made them hang up the phone.

Yeah, that's funny. That's funny. You know, don't be too anxious to sell. Try and keep your investments, uh, you know, do 1031 exchanges. Beware of predatory investors out there and don't fall for it, folks, obviously. And, uh, join us For our upcoming cruise. We can't go to Cuba because the federal government shut us down. So unfortunately, it's not going to be Cuba. But we've got something that is going to be even better, much more luxurious, better cruise line, better ship. And that is a fall foliage cruise leaving out of New York in October. Go to jasonhartman.com/cruise. It's on a beautiful, beautiful ship, Princess Cruise Lines. We would love to have guests join us. That'll be a Venture Alliance cruise, but we always have some guests come. So that's why I'm inviting the listeners who are interested. The one thing I do have to tell you is prices for this cruise are not guaranteed because it was booked short notice because we had to make the change. So if you're interested in cruising with me and the rest of our folks for a week, New England, Canada, fall foliage, absolutely beautiful, stunning. I've seen the fall foliage before. I love that time of year. It's just, just a beautiful time. On Princess Cruise Lines, join us. Go to JasonHartman.com/cruise. And Adam, without further ado, let's get to our guest today. You're really going to enjoy this interview as a tenth episode. And Adam, let's duck duck go to the episode. Duck duck go. Good stuff. Here we go. It's my pleasure to welcome Gabriel Weinberg to the show. He is the founder and CEO of the multi-billion search internet privacy company Duck Duck. I'm sure many of you use it. It's a great product. And the number one bestselling author of Traction: How Any Startup Can Achieve Explosive Customer Growth, and the new book, Superthinking: The Big Book of Mental Models. Gabriel, welcome. How are you?

Great. Thanks for having me.

Give our listeners a sense of geography. Where are you located?

I am outside Philadelphia in the United States.

Fantastic. Is that where DuckDuckGo is located, by the way?

So it's where I'm located, but DuckDuckGo is a distributed company. So we actually have team members scattered across the whole world.

Fantastic. Good stuff. I was thinking you were going to say you were in Silicon Valley. Like, no, it's too cliché. Don't think that, right? Well, good stuff. Superthinking. This is something that I'm guessing you have employed very well, and congratulations on your success. What is superthinking?

So Superthinking subtitle is The Big Book of Mental Models. So the next question is, what the hell is a mental model, right? Mental model is a fancy word for concept. And, you know, we have concepts in every area of life. I was a physics major, so there were tons of physics concepts, most of which quantum mechanics and things which are not relevant to anyone outside of physics, but some really are. So, for example, the concept of critical mass came from physics, and kind of it's the nuclear material needed for a nuclear bomb, but it's really useful outside of physics in investing in products and entrepreneurship. A product or an idea can have critical mass, and once you know something can have critical mass or critical mass applies as a concept to that business or investing concept, then you can think at strategic levels about it. You can say, well, how can I achieve critical mass for that? Or how can I achieve it faster? And so what mental models are, these broad mental models, is there's a list of about 300 of them that we've enumerated. And if you can kind of know them and internalize them, you can be a much better strategic decision maker.

Okay. So 300 mental models though, that's A lot to know, isn't it?

It sounds scary, right? But the reality is that they're very interrelated. And so what we ended up doing is describing them through 9 thematic narrative chapters. And so, for example, the first chapter is all about biases. So all the biases, which is very similar, comes up a lot in investing, like confirmation bias and availability bias, and all as a theme of how to like get around the bad parts of your intuition. And then there's like unintended consequences and spending your time wisely. So there are a lot. But they're very interrelated.

Yeah, yeah. And there are so many of these biases and we don't even realize how they run us, right, Gabriel? I mean, one of my favorites, and I know it runs me, is the sunk cost bias, right? You know, you put all this effort or money into a deal and you just should let it go at some point, right? Exactly.

Yeah.

Yes. Just to put some words to that, the sunk cost is, let's say you go to a movie and you've already paid for the ticket. And you're 10 minutes in and it is a— it is terrible.

Yeah.

Yeah. And so you're like, I got to walk out of there. That's what the rational move to be. But most people don't walk out because they're like, I just bought this ticket. I have to make my money's worth. But the reality is you already spent the money. And so that happens a lot in investing. It goes with another mental model called loss aversion, where people are much more afraid of losing what they already have than they are necessarily gaining. And what happens as that operationalizes is, say you bought something, like a stock, and you want to wait until— and it goes down, and you just wait and wait until it crosses that original price just to make you feel like you got a gain. But in reality, you probably should sell it earlier if it's not worth that much, right?

That really relates to like opportunity cost, doesn't it? Because I like to talk a lot about how you can't hear the dogs that don't bark, and the, the question of compared to what, right? We, we never really evaluate what is unseen. Or what we might have gained had we done something else and not had all this sunk cost into whatever that deal was, right?

Yeah. Opportunity cost is one of these models that really was the motivator for writing the book in the first place.

Good.

What happened was I was trying to train executives at the company I founded, DuckDuckGo, and I started realizing that executives, their main role— and the same is true if you're running your own company or running your own investments. is to make good decisions. And then I tried to do introspection into what makes good decisions and came upon the realization that you really need to know all these different models. But what really was the kind of epiphany moment for me was all these people coming up to me and saying, we've got to do this project. It is the most important project. Here are all the reasons why we should do it. And I kept finding myself saying back to them, okay, I can see why your product's important, but is it more important than all these other projects we need to do? And if you're arguing for we should do X, you really need to be arguing for it. We should do X instead of Y and Z and that's exactly what opportunity cost is.

Okay. So I kind of took you down that track and I think that's a good one for sure, but there are 300 of these mental models?

Yeah.

Okay. So which are the biggies, I guess?

You want me to highlight some for you?

Yeah. Highlight the ones that are affecting most of us, right?

I mean, opportunity cost and I want to be clear, it's like every one of these models like opportunity cost comes from economics, right? They come from a specific discipline, but they're really useful outside outside of it. That's where the metaphorical value really comes from, that you can apply this across your entire life for really any decision. But there are a few, like you said, that really, really carried more weight than some of the others. One that's counterintuitive that I'd like to bring up is called forcing function. And what this is, is anything that is really forcing you to critically evaluate things, because ultimately what a lot of this comes down to is your intuition can be bad And you want a place where you can check it really systematically. And so a forcing function helps you do that. Now, at a company, what that means for DuckDuckGo is we have, for every project, we have a kickoff call, we have postmortems where we ask what went well and what didn't go well. We have weekly updates that need to be written for every project. And these are built into the calendar and they literally force people to take a step back and think critically about what we're doing.

Mm-hmm.

Now, on a personal level, that could be like every week I evaluate my investments or every week I go to the gym, or, you know, I look at my budget, or whatever it is, but it's already set aside by default.

Okay, so really it's a matter of scheduling, right? Scheduling to constantly evaluate progress on something?

Yeah, that's right. It's related to something called the default effect, which is you basically do what the default is generally. And a good example of this is organ donation rates across different countries. Some countries have default opt-in to organ donation, and some have default opt-out where you have to—

Right.

If you look at the rates across countries, the ones that's default opt-in are like 90%, and the ones that are default opt-out are like 20%, 30%. So if you have a default that is already into your calendar, then you're going to have that forcing function to think critically every single week. Whereas if you don't have that default, you might wait months before you actually think critically. And you're going to waste your time. You're going to waste your money, et cetera.

Yeah.

Okay, good, good. What else? Tell us about some others. Yeah, the default effect. That's good. By the way, just to comment on that, it seems like a lot of subscription businesses and SaaS-based services are benefiting huge from the default effect, right? Because everything's on autopay and they just keep renewing you, keep renewing you. And a lot of people, they kind of don't pay attention to it very much. That's right. Yeah.

I mean, all of these can also be used almost adversarially against you, you know, like all your biases.

Is.

There's a whole set of models that we cover called influence models that do that. And there are things like reciprocity, where if somebody gives you something, you're much more likely to have an innate feeling like you want to return that favour. For example, like high-profile ticket item sales folks will give you free concert tickets, or nonprofits will send you free address labels. It's all on the idea that then you're much more likely to return the favour. There are lots of other influences models like that, like social proof, and just you tend to want to agree with people that you like, so then people try to relate to you on a more social level, like you like the same sports teams and stuff like that. Similar to regular biases like confirmation bias and availability bias, you want to be aware of these different ways that people or companies are trying to influence you. Like you said, default settings are a great one. I run a privacy company. You can't get better examples than this than privacy settings.

Oh, yeah. Good point. Good point. Yeah. Yeah.

Because they're like 5 menus down in some layout.

Right.

You know, you see it, nobody reads it.

Yeah, exactly. Switching gears, like, there's a whole set of models around kind of getting better at skills and coaching. And a central one is called deliberate practice.

Okay.

And it was pioneered by a gentleman named Anders Ericsson who studied professional athletes and experts across academia and musicians. And what he found at the core Are these people practice this one form of practice, which you call deliberate practice, where it's really simple. You really try to practice one skill out of your comfort zone a little bit, and at the same time, you get expert feedback, real-time feedback as to kind of what you're doing wrong. So you don't want to go way outside your comfort zone because then you can't really relate it to what you're doing wrong, but you want to go a little bit and have that kind of coaching session or a mentor that helps you. kind of get better at it. And if you can set this up in your life for whatever it is you're trying to do, get better at, whether it's investing or public speaking or coding or anything, like, that's the fastest way to kind of climb that skill ladder.

Okay. Okay. Good, good. You talk right at the beginning of the book about being less wrong. What does that mean?

Well, there's this mental model that comes from tennis called unforced errors. And so are you a tennis player by chance?

I used to be. I really don't do too much I don't watch it much anymore, but I like tennis. I'm a fan.

But in any case, there's different errors you can make playing tennis, right?

Sure.

A lot of errors people think when they look at— watch a sport is like the other player made a really good ball that was hard to return. But it turns out a lot of errors in tennis are what they call unforced errors, where the opponent didn't force you to make an error at all. You just hit it into the net yourself or double faulted where you hit in the net when you serve. Unforced errors can theoretically be completely avoided. And so being less wrong is really about learning these models to help you predict how you might end up being wrong and then avoiding those things. And it's almost like a checklist of stupid mistakes or anti-patterns that you can fall into. A good example is unintended consequences. So you see this all the time now with companies like Facebook kind of raising their hand and saying, we could have never predicted that people were going to use our system to manipulate people, or this or that was going to go wrong.

Yeah.

But the reality is you actually can predict these things if you kind of know the models around it. And I'll give you a silly example, but one that comes up a lot, a model called the Streisand effect. And this is actually from the actress Barbra Streisand, is where it got its name.

Sure.

She had a mansion and she didn't want—

In Malibu.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. They didn't want to like see it, you know, and see how kind of ostentatious it was. And a photographer took a picture and put it on their website.

Yep.

No one had downloaded this thing. And then she sued the photographer and all of a sudden it's a front page news story and now everyone has seen it.

Right. Sometimes it's better to just let it go, right? Exactly.

But it's so hard to do, right? But this is kind of the idea of this whole thing is once you know that concept and something comes along and you're like, oh, I made a mistake, I put that out there on the internet, you got to stop and think, well, if I try to delete the post or comment on it or sue them, is that going to draw more attention to it?

Right.

And oftentimes it does. And so that's the kind of question you gotta ask yourself.

And I agree with you completely, that law of unintended consequences, certainly, but it's very hard to evaluate. For example, how did Barbra Streisand know that she did appear to be such a hypocrite, right? In that case, yeah, like no one paid attention to the picture of her house from the drone, but then everybody did when she sues the guy. You know, like how do you— those are big ifs, you just never really know. I mean, yes, it would've been something to consider for sure. And maybe she did even consider it, but, you know, never knew the magnitude or virality of it, right?

You are absolutely right. That's why it's called kind of being less wrong, because you can't be absolutely right all the time. Because a lot of this stuff is around uncertainty. And that is actually why it's very hard to do this over time, is it's, it's you're really weighing probabilities, right? But to really help you with that is kind of looking at history. And so So I think that one in particular, like, you can't really say because there's no counterfactual. Another mental model that's really good is thinking about thought experiments and like what could have happened, you know. But in that case, there's a long history of celebrities suing people that look like they're under them in some way financially.

Sure.

And it generally doesn't go well.

Yeah.

And so in that one, I think the probability was probably decently high that you might want to avoid it. In other ones, it's very you know, it's harder to say and you have to make a call.

Right.

And there's another bias called hindsight bias, where it's easy to think if things gone well, it's because of your awesome decisions. But if things gone poorly, you should have done something better only in hindsight, right? And one way I think to be kind of more objective about that, and a lot of these mental models in terms of operating them, is you kind of want to involve other people. It's hard to do yourself, especially on your own decisions. And so that could take the form of a colleague, it could take the form of a spouse, it could take the form of a coach. But trying to get a little more objective about it.

Yeah, definitely. You talk about— well, what's interesting, just one more comment on the Streisand thing. It's interesting in a way, a rich and famous celebrity almost has in that kind of situation less power or fewer rights than an obscure person who doesn't have a bunch of money, right? Because if it were the other way around, the photographer could have sued Barbra Streisand And maybe no one would have cared, right?

You know, but yeah, because it's her doing it, you know.

And listen, I'm not defending Barbra Streisand, but—

No, no, you're, you're right. I mean, you're right in 2 respects. I mean, you're literally right in the sense that there are literally laws that are less for public figures, right?

Right.

Like, public figures have less privacy rights in the US underneath our law. But also, companies have this all the time. It's like big companies can play a victim card very easily, you know, because it's not fair. They're big and powerful, right? And so I think recognizing your place is definitely important to like evaluate in all these situations.

Yeah, very, very important. That's one of the, one of the important things you talk about, flexing your market power. That's in fact your last chapter in the book. Tell us about that.

Yeah, this is all in the realm of kind of getting something that has a sustainable competitive advantage. And so by that I mean, is something like arbitrage, where you're just finding a low price here and selling it there in another market. Those kind of opportunities are really easy to get into and so don't last very long. Generally, people who do that business, say on eBay or whatnot, they have to keep cycling it over and over and over again, whereas someone or some business who has a sustainable competitive advantage, once they find that advantage, they can persist for decades even. and make profits. The key to doing that is this idea of market power. Market power is really just the ability to charge higher prices. If you think about it from a personal perspective, we have a lot of illustrations in the book, and this is one of my favorites. It's from the movie Taken, if you're familiar with that.

I remember it, yeah.

Where Liam Neeson says, I have a unique set of skills. That's basically what market power is. If you're somebody with a unique set of skills, Then you can go sell those skills in the marketplace and basically demand your price or the same if you're a company and you have a unique differentiated product that people want. Whereas if you have a commodity product or you are a person that has only commodity skills, the market tells you what the price is.

Mm-hmm.

Figuring out how to get that market power via differentiation is kind of a key set of mental models and one of the ones at center that that Peter Thiel has explained really well. Actually, there's kind of 2. One is this notion of a secret where something that you believe is true that other people or society in general doesn't realize it's true yet, and it often takes a while for that to propagate. If you know one of these secrets, you can often use it to have market power. And similarly, there's another matrix by venture capitalist Andy Ratcliffe who talks about contrarian versus consensus bets. This is true in investing, but it's also true in entrepreneurship. To really get outsized returns, you need to make a bet on the future based on a secret that is different than everyone else is betting on. Because if you bet the same as everybody else, you're never going to get outsized returns because everyone else needs to get a return too. The way to get a real outsized return is to bet on something that's contrarian and be right.

Okay, but is that really such an aha? I mean, be a contrarian, take a risk. And if you're right, you're going to score big time. That's like just taking the long shot, right? Or is there more to it? Am I not getting it?

Exactly.

And by the way, before you answer, maybe we'll take that into your own business experience. When was DuckDuckGo founded?

2008. And I think it's a good example, right? Yeah.

And here's the example I was going to make out of it. The secret is that everybody was just— and this may not be the one you were going to say, But it's one I thought of as you were talking. Everyone was just going along with the standard thing and their privacy's being abused and, you know, Big Brother Google is, you know, looking over their shoulder all the time, et cetera. Now Google's not that old, but, you know, right around the same time, I guess, you know, it's like maybe you brought to the fore, you brought some attention to this thing of, look, your privacy is being abused and we're here to fix that. Is that what you were going to say?

Yeah. There were a couple secrets embedded in it. One is that one. And that's exactly right, is that one of the things that I realised was that privacy was not only being violated, but it was being violated more and more over time. Right. Ads were getting creepier and creepier, and there was no real counterbalancing effect, and that ultimately people were going to wake up to all the privacy harms and want an alternative. And so one of the problems with doing this and making contrarian bets and having secrets is it's really hard to time. Right. So that was 2008. It didn't even really become more a bigger thing in terms of privacy awareness until 2013 when the Snowden revelations happened. And that was more focused on government surveillance. And then corporate surveillance didn't really become huge in the mainstream until 2018 when Cambridge Analytica happened. So we're talking 10 years after the founding, right?

Yeah.

And that's part of— that's the hard part with some of this differentiation and market power. But if you can kind of stay around and you're right, You need to have kind of validation, and we talk about de-risking and running experiments. But if you can do that, then you can be in the right place. It seems like you're in the right place at the right time, right?

Yeah, very interesting. You can't be too early. You know, no prophet is ever revered in his own time or town, as the old saying goes, right? Very good. Wrap it up with any closing thoughts, maybe any questions I didn't ask you, and give out your website too, Gabriel.

Well, it's at superthinking.com. But one metaphor that might be useful, which we kind of use in the introduction, is arithmetic actually. If you think back to when you learned arithmetic, you start out counting and then you do addition, right? And then you eventually learn multiplication and division. Now multiplication and division are actually just different modes of addition, because if you do like 2 times 4, it's just 2 plus 2 plus 2 plus 2. But once you know multiplication, And especially if you have a calculator, you don't go back to addition. So if you have like 547 times 13, you don't just do 547 and add it 13 times. You just do 547 times 13. And that's kind of the idea with mental models is like once you have the name and the concept, you can skip the addition step and go right to multiplication. So you can just do this higher-level kind of analysis and thinking of problems just much quicker.

Yeah, very good.

Very good.

Your website?

superthinking.com. I'm on Twitter @Yegg, Y-E-G-G.

And what does that stand for, just out of curiosity? Where'd that Twitter handle come from? That's your Skype? Good question.

Yeah, it stands for nothing. It is a word, actually. It was used in the 1920s in kind of the gangster movement, and the Yeggman was the safecracker of like the gang. Oh, kind of bring in the Yeggman to help crack the safe open.

Very good. Well, that's hopefully— that's what we've done today with mental models. This is a Fantastic book. Love to have you back on the show sometime to talk about Traction. Keep up the good work. Thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you.

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Thank you.

I look forward to seeing you on the next episode.