How to Use Real Estate to BEAT the System!
In this interview Jason Hartman discusses how investors can "beat the system" by leveraging real estate amid economic turmoil, government policy, and big‑tech dominance. He critiques pandemic‑era eviction moratoria and mortgage forbearance, arguing they distort price discovery and should end. Hartman outlines three categories of housing markets—linear, cyclical, and hybrid—emphasizing that most U.S. markets are linear and thus more stable. He introduces the Hartman Comparison Index (HCI), which values homes against multiple benchmarks (dollars, gold, Bitcoin, oil, S&P 500) to assess whether housing is cheap or expensive. Using historical data, he shows that houses are dramatically cheaper when priced in gold, Bitcoin, oil, or equities than in nominal dollars. He promotes “inflation‑induced debt destruction,” i.e., locking in long‑term fixed‑rate mortgages to repay debt with devalued dollars, and recommends buying income‑producing properties in linear markets. Hartman also mentions his free Property Tracker software for deal analysis, offers practical advice for first‑time investors (rent‑to‑value arbitrage, choosing markets, vetting tenants), and shares his personal real‑estate journey. Throughout, he calls out big‑tech antitrust violations, suggests breaking up or regulating these firms as common carriers, and warns that government and central‑bank policies (e.g., Fed’s MBS purchases) shape the housing market.
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During the darkest days of the pandemic, I could see having a moratorium because none of us really knew what was going to happen. And everybody was worried and rightfully so. Okay, but maybe that would have lasted for two or three months and then it would go away. It's lasted way too long. Okay. It's ridiculous that we have this now. Same with forbearance. Same idea, right? And mortgage forbearance, where you don't have to pay your mortgage either. What do I think when they lift the program? I think it'll be great. Then the market can adjust and write itself and people can go live in houses they can actually afford and landlords can get their rent and price discovery will occur. I think it'll be great news.
Mr. Hartman, how are you?
Good, Mark, thanks for having me on. You know, a lot of interesting things going on in the world, for sure. A lot of scary things with the economy that is built on a house of cards. And to use another cliche, it's a game of smoke and mirrors. It's really incredible what's happening. So, you know, what I want to talk to your listeners and viewers about today is how to beat the system by aligning everybody's interest with the most powerful forces the human race has ever known, governments and central banks. Soon we might sadly have to add big tech to that, because what they're doing with the censorship and so forth could possibly be the biggest problem humanity faces, if you ask me.
Wow, that's a powerful and absolutely true. Yeah, we were talking a little bit before the show about censorship and some alternatives. People, you know, there's other platforms that people can get on, but still the major dominant players or the field or the. Still the big tech entities.
You know, for several years, I've been offering up three solutions to this problem. These companies are so big, and the arguments that this is just capitalism are completely faulty. This is not capitalism. This is cronyism. This is antitrust violations. You know, these are the robber barons of our era, okay? These are the same as the Carnegies and the Mellons and the Rockefellers and the Vanderbilts back in the day. You know, they were monopolizing the oil business, the railroads, whatever it is. Now they're monopolizing information, okay? And I've been saying for many years, maybe eight, ten years now, that one or three things needs to happen. Number one, these companies need to be busted up under antitrust laws and. Or number two, they need to be regulated under common carrier laws like utilities and. Or their algorithms need to be Made public so that everybody knows why. They see what they see in search results and news feeds and so forth. You know, one or all of these things needs to happen. And I'll just give you an example of that. You know, when you talk about, like, utilities and common carrier laws, if we're talking on the phone and we say something about, you know, something that doesn't fit the narrative, right? The phone company, as long as we're paying our bill, does not have the right to cut off our phone, okay? We have the right to have that because they're a utility, okay? And that's the way it should be with these big giant companies, because they're just totally abusing. You know, people make these BS arguments. Oh, well, it's a private company. Aren't you a capitalist? Yes, I'm a capitalist. I'm actually a libertarian. But these are not private companies anymore. They were private companies when there were legitimate competitors. But they are. They've gone way past that. They have armies of lobbyists. They are abusing the system. They are abusing the laws, and they are abusing the human race. The entire human race is being abused. I mean, this is like book burning during Nazism. It's the brave new world. Aldous Huxley. It's George Orwell, 1984. It's so many of these things all interplaying at once. It's really tragic. And it's could well be the biggest problem humanity is facing.
I didn't expect to go down this path, but I think it's an important one to discuss. Do you think that the governments won't bring the hammer down on these companies because they're serving the purpose of the government?
Yeah. Well, there are many people who believe and have offered a lot of proof that one of the original investors in the company that starts with F and ends with, okay, that company, the CIA, was one of the original investors in that company. It may well be they are serving the purpose of the government. See, under the first Amendment, thankfully, we have that. But the founders could have never seen what's happening today back in 1776. You know, the government does not have the right to censor speech, okay? But they've basically made these companies a proxy for the government because these companies are so big that they can do that and claim that they're just private companies. If you don't like it, go somewhere else, go down the street, you know. But there is no down the street. There is no real alternative anymore because these companies have been allowed to become much bigger than they should have ever been allowed to become because the government simply ignores the antitrust laws that have been on the books for decades. I mean, they're just completely ignoring it. So is the government going to bring the hammer down? Not under this administration, I'll tell you that.
Yeah. And there are. I just, I mean, Rumble has gained some acceptance. It's not at the level of a YouTube, but it's gained. It's gained some traction. I use ProtonMail instead of Gmail. Some people have switched over to that. And we were talking about search engines and browsers. I use Brave and duckduckgo. So I think, I mean, some people are becoming aware to this and trying to jump ship.
But again, it's a drop in the bucket, unfortunately. It really is. Anyway, that's a scam. But so is the economy.
Good segue.
So is the Federal Reserve and the whole system and the way they are inflating away everybody's wealth and savings. You know, what I'm here to talk about today, hopefully is a way to beat that system to some extent. Okay. Also a way to understand the true value of real estate. So I think you have some questions for me, so.
Yes, I do. So one tool that you use to do that to show people the true value of things is called the Hartman Comparison Index, HCI for short. And I want to talk to you about that. But I was hoping to ask you just a couple of real estate questions first because the market is an everyone minds nowadays. Especially I'm sure in your line of work you have jasonhartman.com and you have investment property opportunities on your website. When you talk to people is one thing that comes up quite consistently is that they're skeptical to buy right now because prices are too high. And do you think it's a bubble? Is this cooling off? Is the market still red hot? What's the deal there?
Yeah, so those are questions that I get asked virtually every single day. So let's dive in and talk about that a little bit. I'll share my screen with you. For those of you who are just listening to audio only, I'll explain what we're talking about. So you can glean, glean the idea from just the audio. But if you watch it on video, there's more there and you know, of course it's on. I believe you said Rumble. My stuff goes on Rumble, Bitchute, all the others, but also on the main big robber baron platforms as well. Anyway, the thing people need to understand is that they need to understand what they're measuring things against and the really faulty decision a lot of people make is they measure value with only one thing, dollars. And that is a faulty measuring tool. It's one tool. Sure, dollars are one point of reference, but there's a whole bunch of points of reference. And that's what I want to share with with you today. So understand what is your measuring stick, right? You have to, to really think about what you're measuring things with. And then also understand that when we talk about real estate, there are three types of real estate markets. Linear markets, which are steady and profitable. So if you're looking at a chart, the way those properties appreciate over time is pretty slow and steady, minor ups and downs, and they don't get much attention. Cyclical markets that have significant ups and downs. If you're looking at a graph, those look like a roller coaster. And hybrid markets that are in between the two. So we're talking about the median house price nationwide, mostly that's driven by cyclical markets. So it's really not as high as people think because they're mostly the weighting skews toward the cyclical markets. Okay, so that's the first thing I want people to understand. Most of the planet Earth is a linear market. Most of the country, the United States, is a linear market. What Hillary Clinton insultingly called the flyover states, okay, Those are all linear, right? These states where the hypocrite coastal elites live, including myself, but I'm not an elitist, but I do live in Palm Beach, Florida. Okay, These are cyclical markets, okay? The west coast of the United States, the expensive northeastern markets, New York, Washington, you know, Boston would all be cyclical. South Florida, where I live, cyclical. All right? But most of the world and most of the countries, linear market, it's just a slow and steady kind of boring real estate market. And so we need to find. First understand that, but then we need to ask ourselves the question, compared to what? And that's what the index does. It compares the price of real estate to more than one thing. Most people just compare it to dollars. We compare it to a whole bunch of things to really establish whether or not we are in a bubble. We ask ourselves, is it cheap or is it expensive? And then we can better determine where we are. So I hope that's helpful.
Yeah, it is. On your website, you put a data point that I thought was interesting. Often when people talk about the housing market, they're talking about the whole US Market. And it's actually, according to the data that you had, it's broken up into 400 distinct, diverse markets.
Right.
There's several. You know, it's not that homogenized really.
No. In a country as large and diverse as the US there's no such thing as a national housing market or a national retail estate market. It's just too big a country. Okay, in a tiny little country like Luxembourg, sure, there's a national housing market. Okay, it's a tiny little country. But in the US there are so many markets. And the old saying, all real estate is local is really important.
So you have some properties like listed on your site in Florida, Indiana, Alabama, Tennessee, Ohio. I mean, are these the linear markets that you're talking about?
Yes, those are the linear markets. Those are the sensible markets with good cash flow and just really reliable markets that don't have big scary ups and downs in pricing.
And you have a lot of great resources on your site. So you could see basically how much cash you invest then the cash flow, the cash on return, the total investment. So that's a cool tool that you have on your site?
Yeah, I have a software company, it's called Property Tracker. So if you go to propertytracker.com you can get a totally free account and that offers a bunch of calculators that help people analyze real estate deals and then once they own them, it helps them track real estate deals and that's just totally free. So just go to propertytracker.com you can sign up and use all that stuff.
That's pretty cool. What do you think of the question for younger people? They are weighing whether to buy an investment property first or a home to live in first.
You know, that's a good question. We get it a lot and it depends where you live. Okay. And the reason I say that is that if you live in an expensive cyclical market, I would definitely keep renting a house because renting is a better deal in those markets. We when you look at the rent to value ratio, it's in favor of the tenant. The more expensive the house is, the more favorable that ratio becomes for the tenant. The less expensive the house, the better it is to own the house and the less favorable it is for the tenant. So what we recommend, I mean, in the ideal world it's hard to really make this all happen in reality, but conceptually the best deal would be, you know, assuming you have some money, right. To rent a high end home for yourself and live in the rental and then buy a bunch of inexpensive properties that you rent to other people. That's where you're going to get the best arbitrage on the rent to value ratio.
It seems that even in these linear markets, the properties are going very quickly. I mean, if you look at the available properties on your site, many of them are sold or in escrow, et cetera, right?
Yeah, they are. And that's why you really need to be working with one of our investment counselors so they can help you find the property. Because the properties are selling super fast. It's a difficult time to be a buyer, but that means it's a good time to be a buyer, too. And, and so, you know, we'll go into why that is happening. Why are people thinking that real estate is such a good value, especially in these linear markets right now? And the way we can do that is by asking, when will the bubble pop? Right. This is the most common question. People are thinking about the first comparison in the index, which is comparing the price of houses to gold. If we just go back to 1970, when gold was $35 an ounce and the median price house was only about $23,000. Wow. If you wanted to buy that house, it would cost you 646 ounces of gold. And then a decade later, in 1980, when the median house price in dollars tripled, it went up three times to 66,400. Gold went to 653 an ounce. It would only cost you $102 an ounce to buy the median price house in 1980. So people were thinking in 1980, hey, look, you know, house prices have tripled. Our houses too expensive. This must be a bubble, right? No way I'm going to buy a house. But that's because they were only measuring in dollars. If they were, take this example. Say they were saving for 10 years to buy a house, okay? And every time they got a paycheck, they converted their paycheck to gold. And then they saved their money in gold and stuck it in a safe deposit box or whatever, right? And then 10 years later, they took all their gold and converted that gold to dollars. They would have found that their purchasing power was much better in gold than in dollars. The dollar was debased dramatically in the 70s, and gold went up a lot. Now, listen, I don't even like gold. I don't even think it's that great. I own some, but not that much. You know, the problem with gold is it doesn't produce income. It doesn't have tax benefits, and you can't finance it. Real estate, you can. So I love income property. It's the best thing, but it just serves as A measuring stick. And I'm going to show you a lot of measuring sticks today, not just gold. So, you know, let's go to today. Today the median house price is around $350,000, but it's only 194 ounces of gold.
Wow. Yeah.
That's so priced in gold. Houses are less than one third of what they cost 51 years ago. Isn't that amazing?
That is amazing. That is amazing. And you had mentioned the devaluation of the dollar. In 1971, we were taken off the gold standard.
And since that time, good old Richard Nixon. The famous thing, it's the 50 year anniversary of that this month.
And since that time, the dollar has lost about 90% of its purchasing power. Is that right?
About 80%?
Yeah, 80%. Okay. But a substantial amount. So sort of the crux of what you're saying here is that it's not good to hold cash. I mean, Michael Saylor has likened holding cash to holding a melting ice cube. I like that visual of it.
Yeah, maybe. But I'm not saying bitcoin's the thing either, but we can look at that. But sure, I get it. Michael Saylor is a big bitcoin fan and, you know, I get all the arguments. There are times when cash could be the best one, but it's very unusual. I'm holding now Zimbabwe dollars. One of my podcast listeners sent these to me and you can see that this is 100 trillion Zimbabwe dollars. Okay. Yet this is worth about $4 as a collectible for US dollars. Right. It's worth nothing. Okay, here is a bitcoin. Okay, now granted it's not a real bitcoin because bitcoin is digital. But you get the visual. But you know, when you, when you look at. So let's talk about the gold issue. One. One more thing we have to ask ourselves. Priced in gold, is housing cheap or expensive? And the answer is it's cheap. Okay, what about bitcoin? Well, priced in bitcoin, housing is extremely cheap because bitcoin hasn't been around long enough to have a much of a track record. Gold's been considered money for 5,000 years. Bitcoin's only been around for what, 13 years now? Right? So bitcoin doesn't really have a good track record. But looking at this, in 10 years, houses have become a lot cheaper priced in bitcoin.
Right.
But again, it's way too small a sample, so we can't really draw good conclusions from bitcoin. Okay.
I'm just seeing the 773,000 compared to 10. So that was dramatic.
So in 2010, if you wanted to buy the median price house, it cost you 773,000 bitcoin. Last year, it would cost you 12 bitcoin, and as of June of this year, it cost you 10 bitcoin.
Right.
So priced in bitcoin, housing is cheaper. Okay. But again, the track record is just not long enough. A long track record is oil. Oil is a great one because oil is the. Arguably the most important commodity in the world after, you know, food and air. Okay, yeah. Oil is really. Oil runs the world. Okay. It is a super important commodity. So let's take a look at that one. 1970, median house price, about $23,000. Oil's $3 a barrel. Wow. So if you wanted to trade for a median price house in 1970, it would cost you almost 6,800 barrels of oil. Today, if you wanted to buy the median price house, it would only cost you about 4,600 barrels of oil, because now oil's $75. So priced in oil, is housing cheaper or more expensive? It's cheaper.
Okay, so the moral of the story is, what instances do you want to hold cash? You were saying there's some instances that you would like. It's beneficial to hold cash in a.
Deflationary environment, which who knows if we'll ever really have that cash would be a great asset because basically what happens is when you have inflation, it's a robber and a thief. It's stealing the value of our cash. When you have deflation, the value of your cash is actually increasing. It purchases more. So in a deflationary environment, all the stuff around us gets cheaper, yet the cash in our wallet has more purchasing power than it used to. But I don't think that's the future. And not many people do, and it certainly hasn't been the past. Okay. And the reason for this is, is that the best business plan for governments and central banks, including the U.S. government and the United States Federal Reserve, our central bank, is inflation, because inflation devalues debt and the US Owes money. So take this example. Say the US owes, and I don't know what the latest number is, but we'll call it a trillion dollars. It's really more than that. But if the US Owes a trillion dollars for round numbers to China, for example, and we have 10% inflation, it might be in a year, might be in two or three years, whatever, it doesn't matter. Right? But if you owe a trillion dollars and you inflate the currency, meaning it becomes less valuable and you owe a trillion dollars, then you magically just wipe out $100 billion of that debt. Poof, it's gone. So the US takes advantage of a technique I recommend to people, to investors. I call it inflation induced debt destruction. I know that's a mouthful. Inflation induced debt destruction. And that is a technique I teach investors to borrow dollars today attached to commodities that are not indexed to any one currency. They have intrinsic value and pay that loan back in cheaper dollars. It's an absolutely fantastic wealth creator.
I thought you were going to say just print money. That's I thought with the fish.
Well, no, they're printing money. So we're going to align our interests with them.
Can you give a practical example of how you could do that?
Sure. Basically, by getting a mortgage on a property, you're in essence shorting the dollar. Okay. So if you think the dollar, they will continue to print and the dollar will be continually be devalued or debased through inflation, then the way to play that trade is to stock up on super cheap 30 year mortgages and pay them back in depreciated dollars later. Okay. That is inflation induced debt destruction. It is the hidden wealth creator. It takes a while to really explain that. So just go to my YouTube channel or listen to my Creating wealth podcast and there's a lot more detail on that. Okay, maybe I'll give you one more comparison real quickly if you want it, and that is comparing house prices to the s and P500. If you look at the S and P index, widely cited as one of the best measures for how is the economy doing of the s and P500, about 72% of that is consumer spending. So it is a really good measure on what's going on. In 1970, one, share of the S&P was $93. The median house price was about $23,000. So in 1970, to buy the median price house, you would have to cash in 243 shares of the S and P. Today, if you wanted to buy a house and you own some shares of the S and P, you would only have to cash in 80 shares of the S and P to buy the house today for $350,000. So priced in the S and P, is housing cheap or expensive?
It's cheap.
Isn't that amazing?
I wanted to ask you about something that the Fed is doing with buying. I mean they're buying mortgage backed securities and BlackRock is buying entire neighborhoods. What impact is that having on the housing Market. And if they stop doing that, what would happen?
Yeah, interestingly. Well, those are two different things. Okay, so one thing you asked about is the Fed. And the Fed is going to taper that. Right. Or stop altogether. So the Fed is like the world's biggest investor and they should get out of the market because they're distorting the market like government and government, you know, the Fed isn't really the government, but it's close enough. Okay. It's part of the big conspiracy, I'll put it that way. So when they stop buying mortgage backed securities, for example, that is going to reduce mortgage availability and that will be bad for the red hot housing market because it will reduce the amount of financing in the marketplace. However, it will be good for people who own properties because fewer buyers will be able to obtain financing and that means those buyers will be forced to stay in the renter pool and it will increase the demand for rentals. So that's one of the beauties about income property. You can play that trade on either side of it. Sometimes the trade is, is a capital gains trade, a capital appreciation trade like it has been recently. And sometimes it's a yield or a cash flow trade where the cash flow increases a lot because the people aren't out buying so much. Remember, people only have three choices. They can buy rent or be homeless. The last choice isn't too attractive, isn't fun.
And mortgage backed securities, they are bonds of mortgage loans. Right. Is that an accurate description, what they are?
Yes. Well, there are equity related securities out there too, I think. I'm not an expert on it, but mostly they're bond, basically bonds. In essence, you know, all a bond is, is a loan. Okay. You're just buying the other side of it. Right. So yeah, that's what it is.
People that are interested in getting their first investment property, they're going to go to jasonhartman.com and check out what's available. I mean, what advice or tips would you give those people? I mean there are, it does come with certain caveats. Right. Like if they're. The property has, you know, you could have an issue, things need to get fixed. You might not be able to find a renter. I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of things rolling around in people's minds.
That are, oh, of course, you know, hey, look at nothing worthwhile in life is easy. I mean this stuff takes attention, it takes work. But I would argue that everything takes attention and work. I mean if you want to put your money in the stock Market, you better be studying, paying attention. You know, things go wrong that you have no control over. You relinquish control to a bunch of crooked Wall street investment banks and CEOs. You know, everybody knows about all the scandals on Wall Street. So the point is you have to pay attention to everything. Everything requires attention and management. Okay? You know, having money is a responsibility. You've got to pay attention to it.
Can you talk a little bit about your first experience getting an investment property? What was that like?
I got my real estate license in my first year of college. I was only 19 years old. I started selling government repossessed properties, HUD and VA repos. And I sold a few of them to a client. His name was Jim, Jim Woll. And he didn't like one of them very much. It was like a one bedroom condo. And about six months in my career, I was about 20 and a half at that point. He says to me, hey, Jason, you know, I don't really like this one property I bought. Why don't you take the listing and sell it for me and I'll buy another one from you? And I said, jim, I don't want to sell it for you. I want to buy it from you. And so that was my first investment property. I was 20 years old and at the beginning of it, it went okay. And then I had a bad experience because the tenant just stopped paying rent and I had to evict them. My first experience was, was a bad experience. But then I did sell the property and I made some money on the sale. But I would have had every good excuse to say, this real estate thing doesn't work. I'm giving up. Okay? No one would have blamed me, okay. But I'm sure glad I stuck with it because it's been a great, a great investment. I have made just a load of money with my real estate. And in the business, I love the asset class so much, I help other people buy it. So I think income property is the most historically proven asset class in the entire world. I just don't think there's any better asset.
What do you make of. I could guess what you make of it, but the CDC sort of usurped, I guess you want to say, the government and the Supreme Court by continuing their eviction moratorium.
Yeah.
What are your thoughts on that?
So it's funny because I was interviewed on a television news station right after that expired. And then the next day they put it back into place in a sort of a different format. But look at that's not Going to last. The Supreme Court already ruled against them. In terms of our properties, we have had like, it's just a non issue. Okay? And here's the way to get around this kind of stuff. Buy quality properties in quality neighborhoods that have quality tenants. You know, look, even if they could abuse the system and say, nana, you can't make me pay rent, you know, you got to evict. You can't evict me. I'm just going to squat. Right? This is not what reputable people with credit reports and jobs do, okay? They don't do that because they don't want to mess up their credit. You know, even if people can stay there, you can still sue them and get a money judgment against them and then eventually you can evict them. But when you have really low end properties with people that just do not care, that have nothing to lose, yeah, you could have problems. So the problem of eviction moratoriums has really been limited pretty much to institutional investors that own apartments and landlords that own low end properties in bad areas where people don't care about their credit report and don't care about eventually buying a house someday and things like this, you know, people we rent to, they're trying to move up the socioeconomic ladder. They don't want to ruin their credit and you know, and have problems like that.
So vetting the person you're renting to.
Well, of course you're going to vet them, but I mean, financially, not even. You don't even have to vet them. They vet themselves because, you know, they're renting a property that is 1600-2000 dollars per month.
Right.
You're just not getting a low end tenant in that property. Okay, maybe even 2,500amonth. Right. But if you're renting properties in really bad areas in say, Detroit, and you know, the rent is 700amonth, you're just going to get a much lower quality tenant almost always. Right.
When that eviction moratorium is lifted, is that going to severely impact the market in terms of foreclosures and evictions? What is your forecast for that? When that.
Oh, no, I think it should be lifted. I hate programs like this. I think they're. Look at. I can see during the darkest days of the Plan Demic and I threw that L in there intentionally. Okay, I hope you enjoy that humor. During the darkest days, the Plan Demic I could see having a moratorium because none of us really knew what was going to happen and everybody was worried and rightfully so. Okay, but maybe that would have lasted for two or three months and then it would go away. It's lasted way too long. Okay. It's. It's ridiculous that we have this now. Same with forbearance. Same idea, Right? And mortgage forbearance, where you don't have to pay your mortgage either. What do I think when they lift the program? I think it'll be great. Then the market can adjust and right itself and people can go live in houses they can actually afford and landlords can get their rent and price discovery will occur. I think it'll be great news.
So the price will adjust accordingly when.
It happens in a good way? Yeah, absolutely.
Just to get back to the index quickly. Does it boggle your mind sometimes to think that things aren't really what they seem like? J.P. morgan was. They were fined about a billion dollars, not too far in the distant past for manipulating the price of precious metals.
There's a website everybody should check out if they like precious metals. I don't think precious metals are a very good investment. You know, maybe own a little of it just as insurance. Right. But there's a website called gata, stands for the Gold Antitrust Action Committee. They have profiled and filed lawsuits over market manipulation. And yes, it's manipulated, and so is bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. Okay. So all of this stuff has manipulation to it. And, you know, the best one is income property because it just has better characteristics.
And we talked a little bit about crypto. So you are an advocate of crypto. You believe in crypto or just bitcoin? Are you Bitcoin maximalist? Do you follow any of the other altcoins?
Yeah. Okay, so here's what I think. I want to start by saying I would love to be wrong about this. I want to be wrong. Okay. But I don't think I'm going to be wrong. All right, look, the two most powerful forces the human race has ever known are governments and central banks. The main product of any government is its currency. That is what a government sells and a central bank sells.
