Hivemind: Saylor's MSTR Premium Playbook & Financializing AI Agents

No one gave a fuck about AI agents until they had tokens, right? Dude, people like to shit on it, but that is still crypto's main use case, is that you can financialize things and get people interested in them.

Like, all of these infra plays, I feel like, are well positioned because they just get all the volume through this, and they're the real winners. Like, they're the people extracting the money, like the Photons, the Bulaxes, the Bananas, the Trojans. Like, You know, I think Photon made like $17 million in fees last week. Like, those are the real people winning from this. They don't care if the market goes up, down, sideways. They just want volume.

Nothing said on The Hive Mind is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens. This podcast is strictly for informational purposes only, and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our own opinions, not financial advice. Hi everyone, my name is Jose Macedo and welcome to another episode of the Hive Mind podcast. The goal of the podcast is to provide an inside look into what we like to call the Delphi Hive Mind, bringing together some of our brightest minds from each of the divisions to share insights, alpha, and shitposts. Today with us we have the usual cast: Ceteris Paribus, who heads up our institutional research arm, also known as Ceteris, Jan Lieberman, managing partner of Delphi Ventures, and Venture Partner Duncan, also known as Flood Capital, self-proclaimed gem hunter. I split my time between ventures and labs, our protocol R&D arm. So as we're recording here today, Bitcoin's— which is Wednesday, 20th of November— Bitcoin's just hit new all-time high, $95K. Um, markets in general doing pretty well. Do we want to start by by asking, where is everyone at with this? Do you want to talk about maybe MicroStrategy? Or maybe— yeah, maybe we can start with MicroStrategy. I know, Jan, you wanted to, to enter that. It's a pretty important thing that's been happening last week.

Yeah, no, it's, uh, it's likely been the, the primary driver of kind of all the, the price action right now. Um, you know, Saylor came out with the announcement, um, that he was buying after the election, and then another a big chunk in the past week and a half or so. And so it seems like the initial expectation of what he said about, you know, $20 million, $21 million debt, $21 million in equity over the next 2 to 3 years is getting— and he mentioned it might be getting accelerated— that definitely seems to be the case right now. And so he's deploying quite a bit. Part of kind of his deployment strategy and approach has been through the fact that, uh, MSTR is trading at this monster premium. And so I think it's been a bit of a point of kind of confusion for many in terms of, you know, why does this continue to persist? Um, and so I think it's kind of worth going through how he's gotten here, right? So, um, MicroStrategy is deployed about $16 and change billion into, um, into Bitcoin over the past 4 years through, through kind of a variety of offerings. It's been, uh, about half debt, uh, uh, there's some like, there's like a billion cash reserves, um, about, uh, $6 million or so in, in debt, and then Uh, the rest in equity. So it hasn't really been too heavy in one or the other. Um, he's, he's kind of been deploying since, since 2020. And I think the, the, the— so just to try and understand why there is this premium, so the way that the, the debt works is it's all very, very low interest rate, right, ranging from 0 to like 1.5. Um, it's the, the upside is mostly in the convertible debt element, right? So basically the idea is these debt investors at a certain point in time are able to convert this debt for equity. The debt isn't really convertible until 2028, 2029 for, depending on kind of the round. And it converts at prices. The most recent one in 2024 was actually a pretty cheap conversion at like a buck $85, but the, the previous convertibles were all at, at really high prices. So ranging from $1,500 to, uh, around $2,300, $2,400, uh, per share of, of Master. And Master at the moment, I think, I, I haven't, I need to check, but I think it's like $450, $500 range. Um, so a lot of that isn't really convertible yet. So how, how does that—

it's that far out in strike?

Yeah. Um, some of the, the, the, the initial stuff. So basically the bet that people are making is that you're, you're kind of buying a call option.

Is that pre-split though, the initial stuff? Um, yeah, that actually might be pre-split because there's no way he's selling it for $2,000 now at $500 a share.

So, so basically the debt is convertible once it reaches, uh, either the specified time, which is many years out, or 130% of the strike price for like a 24-day window or 20-day window or something like that. So the idea is he's able to borrow cheaply, uh, nearly free, and, and kind of temporarily delay the dilutive element, use that cash to buy, uh, BTC and sit on the balance sheet. So the question basically becomes, you know, who is bidding Master at these premiums and why, right? Because the idea is you, if you're buying Master here, you're, you're making a bet on both Bitcoin and the premium itself. Because if the premium compresses from, you know, I think it's about 3 right now, um, 3.5, right? So today, as it presses and Bitcoin goes up, then you're still losing. So it's a, it's a pretty tricky bet because I think there's a lot more risk than just betting on BTC alone. So it's kind of, I think that's part of the confusion. The upside is that, you know, you're able to, I think it made a lot of sense early on because you were able to basically use debt to grow the value of the equity by putting BTC on the balance sheet of the company. But now at this level of premium, it's a bit tricky. So, you know, part of why I think he's also deploying rapidly right now is because this massive premium exists. So he's able to issue shares at a premium and buy up a bunch of Bitcoin and throw on the balance sheet. And so you kind of want to strike when times are hot. And so it seems like he's probably the biggest driver of the bid right now, just considering you know, how much he deployed recently. It was in the billions over the past, like, 2 weeks. And so it doesn't seem like he's looking to slow that down. So I guess the question is, what happens after, like, he stops deploying? And does he stop deploying because he's just taking a break or because there's a potential compression in the premium? And is that kind of going to be the signal for a potential, like, temporary top in the market? Or can the market just stay flat if Saylor's not bidding?

The, the person who can compress the premium the most is him, right? And he's been trying to compress the premium, um, every time he does one of these offerings. He's like, right now he's selling dollars for like $3, and that's how you get the premium down. Is he just keeps doing this and keeps buying Bitcoin, and he's the one that can arbitrage it the most. It's like, yeah, it's a— I saw something someone talked about, like how you need to look at them as Bitcoin's investment bank. There's some like interesting theories out there. I think that they're all a bit too like, I don't know, at the end of the day, I think this premium is definitely going to close at some point, but You know, when the premium closes, it's just the bid, the, the strong bid goes away, but it's not like they're, they're like forced to sell or anything like that, right? So for the market and for like Bitcoin overall, this is kind of just like a nice dynamic that exists in the market right now.

I'm, I'm confused why, like, who is buying?

Yeah, like a strategy.

Yeah, don't you believe You just have to believe Saylor, right? If you believe Saylor, then he's going to issue MicroStrategy to buy Bitcoin until the premiums close, basically. No, that's like his, that's his game. So like, why would you buy MicroStrategy?

I mean, doesn't the Wall Street don't like 5%? Yeah, that's what I was going to say is they obviously are smart money.

The piece that makes sense when, when he talks is that, so basically these converts are limited downside, like you're just lending the company money as long as you have like confidence that Bitcoin, like Bitcoin would have to go to something crazy low for them not to be able to pay back their debt. And then you essentially have a call option on the upside. So it's like these fixed income funds can essentially buy like call options on Bitcoin through these notes and take out a lot of the downside volatility, which I think is actually like a really interesting instrument. That only— I would— I don't think that accounts for like that much of the premium. Like that makes a lot of sense.

But then when it's trading at 3.5 times, that wouldn't really impact the premium, right? Those are like that. If anything, that would compress it over time as they convert and sell, like the premium and the convertible debt are kind of separate where—

But like he has the tool to essentially like lever up, which is like, like in a unique way. Which should give him some premium to BTC if the market's going up, right? But it doesn't account for the full, like, 3.5 times premium, which is just kind of getting crazy.

Like, that's where some, uh, theories— there's just kind of gamma squeeze situation.

Yeah, yeah. So it did make sense. MicroStrategy traded more options than Nvidia yesterday. I tweeted that, and I couldn't believe that, right? So, like, Nvidia is, you know, 40 times larger than MicroStrategy and, uh, like the biggest company in the S&P, and it did more option volume than it—

that's explanation there is basically as people want to go buy calls, market makers are, are typically delta neutral, and so when they're selling you calls, they have to go out and buy spot so that they're not selling you naked calls. And so if people just start sizing in calls, that's a lot of notional shares that they have to buy to offset that activity, and, and that causes a monster run-up in price. And we kind of saw that with GameStop in, in '21 and, and others— Bed Bath Beyond.

Yeah, it's just like this—

why are people buying MicroStrategy calls, I guess, rather than—

because they think it's gonna go—

gamblers. Yeah, it's like, yeah, you can get— but you're betting Bitcoin at $95 is not going to give you, you know, a 5x in a week. But if you buy some short-dated calls, you might be able to Nail something.

But you could buy short-dated calls on Bitcoin itself though, right? Yeah, on this premium expanding.

That just happened, that just got approved. So I think like the major options expiry is in January 2025, and now that there's options on Bitcoin, maybe like a strategy loses some of its appeal. But it's definitely a very circular argument on how this works, and I feel like no one has a really easy to understand way to like explain it. Which typically means that like there's something is a little bit off. So I think this premium definitely compresses over time, but while it exists, right? Like Saylor bought $4.6 billion worth of Bitcoin last week. The ETFs bought $1.7 billion. So him alone is doing like 3 times the volume of the ETFs in buy pressure. And like, it's premiums expanded this week, so he's probably on track to do more than $5 billion this week. Um, yeah, but I definitely think if MicroStrategy cracks, like, you know, you see a day where it's down like 30% or something, then that could be a temporary top signal. Because we saw this with the German government in, in the summer, right? They were selling like a billion, like less than a billion dollars of Bitcoin, but it was like telegraph selling, and that held the market down Right? So like that's the type of size we're talking about. Now you have sailor, like Telegraph buying of like $5 billion a week as long as the premium's up, which is, you know, obviously making the part of the market go nuts. But if that were to stop, it's like very reflexive because it's like people are buying because they also know sailor's at the bid and like MicroStrategy's up, but they all, all these factors feed into each other. Like if Bitcoin goes down, MicroStrategy goes down. It's kind of, it's a difficult reflexive dynamic. So I think, yeah, it would be, it's important to watch looking for like a temporary top in crypto to watch MicroStrategy. And the fact that it did more options than NVIDIA, I think is a bit concerning that a top is probably close.

Yeah, I think there would be some level of pullback just based on, you know, the Telegraph, like you mentioned, Telegraph buying brings in a certain type of crowd that, that's looking to just trade that event, right? And, and so, um, you're both getting increased buying from them, and then you'd likely get some degree of selling from them. And, you know, there's not an insane amount of leverage in the system right now, but there's definitely some, and you'd expect there to be a potential flush. Um, but yeah, there's no reason to— it's— yeah, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a tricky one.

It is a tricky one, but—

and how are we, maybe pivoting to markets, how are we feeling generally?

Like, it's kind of wild today that like MicroStrategy is up 15%, Bitcoin's up 3%, and most of the other alts are red. It's like, and like stocks are red, dollar's up, yields are up. It's like kind of like the lone soldier in the market right now. But obviously this is just like a one-day thing. It's just pretty—

yeah, alts outside of like SOL have not been really trading well over the past week or so. Um, you also saw, uh, some, you know, the apps— obviously that's like something people track. Um, the app store— apps and app store rankings have kind of have trended lower, right? So not higher being towards first, uh, they've kind of reversed course a bit. Which I don't know if we've seen that. I'm sure we've seen that in previous bull markets, but I don't remember that.

The first time the rankings rise is because people log on to sell at breakeven.

Is that your theory?

Yeah. Then it goes back down and then they come back later and then that's the one that really matters.

It's just kind of weird because this cycle feels like it's really dominated by MicroStrategy and like the ETFs and the Strategic Reserve, which are all centered around Bitcoin. And then it's kind of like Taken last cycle, but like put it to the extremes. It's like, okay, like that's the institutional side where it's like institutions are coming and buying Bitcoin. And then on the other side, you have like memes going nuts, right? Like XRP, Doge, uh, Cardano are all up 100. And these are like, okay, XRP and yeah, I know aren't necessarily memes, but they're like, no, they're being no bags. And they're up 100% in the past week, which is like $60 billion in market cap. So it's like you kind of have a, a weird scenario where it's like the institutions on one side and then like the gamblers on the other side going for like the very gambly stuff.

I don't think that Cardano and XRP is retail though. Obviously there is some retail buying. The XRP thing was, um, so everyone's, everyone's very bullish about like a Trump presidency. Right, because he's going to be very pro-crypto and everything. I think the risk here is that he's so pro-crypto that you're going to have a lot of these different groups trying to like make their bag, right, and get like regulations and get things put in place that only benefit them and don't necessarily benefit the industry, right? And I think there's been like discussions with the, with the Ripple guys, right, um, And there was that rumor about Charles Hoskinson, you know, talking to Trump too. And it's like, I don't know if this is retail per se buying this because I've seen a lot of like, I've seen a lot of smart traders buying XRP and stuff, right? That know it's complete garbage, but they're like playing this narrative, right?

Uh, isn't Alexander Good building his project on, on XRP? I heard this somewhere.

He's very, I know he's very long XRP.

Interesting. He does all the like socials analysis though, right? Like, um, he does a bunch of like ad impression costs and stuff analysis. So interesting there. Anyway, also Bitcoin dominance is like— chart looks great. Even like a year, even if you zoom back a year. Do you think this is a trend that keeps going, or is it— is this Bitcoin— is it like other cycles where Bitcoin pumps first and then And then there's a major alt cycle.

Well, Bitcoin dominance right now is ETH, right? It's like versus ETH is basically all of it. And so Solana too, Sol becomes a bigger chunk of it. But like, I think you have to make a case for why ETH is going to turn around. And it's like, we've been trying to come up with reasons. There's been like 10 chances, it feels like, for over the last year for ETH to turn around. And I thought that even as someone who's in bearish ETH, I was like, okay, this makes sense after when Trump got elected, people are going to unwind their ETH shorts. You're going to get more like speculative non-Bitcoin flows and stuff. It still hasn't happened.

Like I just pulled up my BTC.D chart, which I guess I haven't used in a while. And I zoomed out and in 2021, when it goes from 60% to 40%, I just have in all caps, all season. So we're waiting for that this time.

But, but there's been pockets, right?

Like, the difference being though that, that, uh, previously it was kind of a lot of, in a lot of the investors in Bitcoin were kind of in crypto, right? And so there was, there was a much more rational path for them to kind of move further out on the risk curve. But now you have these very Bitcoin sticky pockets being the ETF and SAILR, that you don't necessarily see the same rotation. So unless something changes on that front, I don't necessarily see BTC-D returning to previous levels.

All the degens sold their Bitcoin?

Well, in previous cycles they would, right? Everyone would kind of get a taste and then—

But I guess you're saying in this one they have none left to sell and distribute out?

Well, no, more so just have a massive bid that's very specific to Bitcoin and that won't move out further on the curve. Right.

But normally you'd have that, even if you had that bid, you'd have people who own Bitcoin and sell into that bid and distribute to alts, right?

And sell, yeah, sell, or just like, yeah, yeah, sell some and then go nuts.

Yeah, sell some.

Because like dominance is market cap based, right? So like, you know, a dollar going into some of these alts moves market cap like crazy. And so you kind of have an outsized impact on the rest of the market caps for every dollar of Bitcoin you kind of sell.

I mean, you can still have with Bitcoin dominance rising like this though, we've seen lots of speculative pockets, right? Because it's just such a small market cap that these things are doing, right? The, obviously meme coins have been all year and then you had some of the zoo stuff, but like all this AI agent stuff recently has been hot over the past like week or so.

It's just so small.

It's just like they need to, it's so small. So it's not going to look, it's not going to show up in Bitcoin dominance, right? But it's not to say that there isn't like—

oh, for sure, more so just saying that BTC won't return to those lows, I think.

Yeah, but like, for, for reference, so Bitcoin dominance in January of 2021 was at 73%, and it got as low— by May it was 40%. So like, it literally fell off a cliff, and that was like the alt L1 trades like really heating up.

Well, it's also that people genuinely believed in the flipping, right? And people do not— I think it's fair, like, people need to stop believing in that at this point. And I don't think that, you know, I think if like ETH BTC gets to like 0.06 or something, you know, it's going to be hard to see it go higher than that, right? Because the whole reason it always went higher than that is because people genuinely believed in the flipping. And I think that's like completely off the table now. And so that's why you won't see DOM go as low as it has in, in past cycles.

Yeah, so this is probably like the most interesting conversation is like, is this cycle different in the fact where, you know, you have these institutional BTC bidders on one end and then the retail is going straight into like the trenches and the meme coins on the other end? Does that just kind of leave like the tech alts.

Or there's also no new, like, narrative to really, like, pull— that people can believe in to pull Bitcoin dominance away. Like, there's memes, but I don't really consider memes a narrative, right? It's kind of just gambling, which is fine. But at least in other times you had gambling where you could sort of talk about a narrative, whether it's DeFi summer or like metaverse or whatever it was. Well, I do think the agents is that Yeah, so let's move on to that because that's probably the, the main narrative that's— that has any legs. Although I'd question like to what extent this—

it's still mostly— don't get me wrong, the agent stuff is still mostly like meme coins and like very speculative, but it is— there is like a bit, um, there is a bit there. There's like a little—

go on, give us your— then what's the— what's your bull case for—

for—

like, what is that?

I mean, I don't know if I What's my bull case? I think if you, if you think that— I don't know if I have a good bull case. I just think the sector is going to grow a lot right now, just like pure speculation, because people want like an intellectual meme coin type thing. People want a new narrative to bid. Meme coins aren't like really new, even when they're popping off last year. People want like a new DeFi summer and you know, trying to figure out what the role like agents play in the future. Are they going to become these like KOLs? Um, everyone's like launching their own agents now. Um, are they going to become like, I don't know, are they going to become like celebrities, some of these agents? Is it, is it more than like, is it just being a KOL with tweeting or are they actually going to start doing stuff, right? Um, I think you've seen a little bit. With that, with the Zerbro one, is actually done some different stuff. Like, they actually launched their own token. Like, the AI actually did it. Um, I think what, they dropped like a mixtape or something. Um, and yeah, a lot of art and some other stuff. And so there's— yeah, I don't know if you need to have like a long-term You don't need to, you need to know where this is going with agents. I think you just need to recognize that it's like a bit different and like worth paying attention to.

I think, yeah, on the agent side, I mean, you know, crypto aside, most people agree that over time, more and more agent interactions will happen, whether it's human to agent, agent to agent, right? So a lot more kind of internet traffic and, and just activity will happen via these agents. And so. Previously there, it was, it was difficult to kind of monetize them in a, in a straightforward way, right? It's typically, you know, one of the major companies owns the agent and so they get to kind of charge. And so if you can actually create a useful agent that gets a lot of utility, um, you can kind of monetize it, right? By basically charging a fee or, or using tokens for permissioning. I think there's a lot of experimentation that's still happening on the, uh, the, the value accrual side. Uh, still early. Most of them are just purely memetic. Um, but I think as these agents become more and more useful and, and the ability to, to charge for their utility becomes more kind of, uh, you know, normalized, it'll make sense for, for them to have a token that they can accrue value to, use to, to gain attention. You know, it really depends on what the purpose of the agent is, but I think, you know, a token around them makes a lot of sense. Naturally with, with very low barriers to entry, uh, you're gonna have just a lot of noise as well and, and a lot of kind of just silliness. But, um, I think this narrative is certainly gonna, you know, grow as the utility and, and interactions with agents grow.

Yeah, to me it's also like there's an acceleration, uh, sort of narrative that this plays into, and I do think AI agents take over more and more of economic activity. I don't know, I've seen a few people try and categorize them. Uh, I, I try and think of them in terms of like end, sort of end user product. So kind of think there's like influencers, right? Um, celebs, cult leaders, that, uh, Sam is moving robot or whatever on virtuals that's like traveling around the world and posting, posting selfies. Then there's like the financial agents for like traders, the VC funds, you know, Sequoia and, AI-16Z, um, you know, people that, things that people will ape into to kind of follow trade. And then there's just like the jobs-to-be-done agents, which are like the very simple ones that kind of exist already. Researchers, like personal assistants that book flights for you, this kind of thing. And then like chat agents, right? Where you're just gonna, like the e-girlfriend thing, all the OnlyFans stuff. Um, maybe not even chat, but like interaction, like multimodal interaction agents. Where you're going to probably pay to talk to them. Digital twins, like Character AI, talk to characters from, from your favorite games and stuff. And I do think all of these are going to exist, and tokens, uh, and, and I think there will be tokens around a lot of the successful ones, and they will trade kind of like absurdly. Um, I do think there's a lot of infra missing for these to, for these to exist. Um, there's people building them obviously, like launchpads, but even like with the virtuals and the platform stuff, you haven't really seen a successful agent be built like on a platform by someone that isn't an AI expert. You know, like every platform has its successful agent, but in, in almost every case it was built by the people who developed the platform itself. And there's a question as to like, you know, normally these, these sort of abstractions, like these platforms or SaaS tools or like the Shopifys come in like later in the cycle. When there's been enough experimentation for you to know what the sort of standard practices are and you can kind of productize them and build, build rails around them. I think it's like a little bit too early for these, for these platforms. And you're, you're kind of seeing it with, with, uh, the, the stuff that's coming, coming out of them. You know, the most successful ones have all been built by just like individual devs or, or groups of devs. Um, and then obviously there's the TE tech and stuff that's missing to actually make sure these are AI, because the majority of these are just people LARPing as AIs, which is hilarious because like the history of the internet is AIs LARPing as like robots LARPing as people, right? Uh, and now we're seeing like the flippening. Um, but I think the infra doesn't exist yet. And also like that all the stuff that's happening now is like, I don't know, there's, there's, it's definitely there's some interesting stuff there, but there's also a lot of, a lot of crap.

I, I would take the other side on, on the I think there are some. I mean, so if you just think about the platforms, uh, the, the usually the, the developers of the platforms are kind of dogfooding it via the creation of one agent that they hope is hyper successful and, and can be, you know, an example of, of what can be done. But I think, you know, these platforms need to exist as it to be successful as a kind of two-sided marketplaces, right? You, you want to create on the speculation side a platform where Users can come invest, speculate, and, and, and the reason why is because then you can attract the best developers to, to come onto the platform and bring the highest quality of agents, and then that gets the flywheel going. Um, I feel like virtuals, you know, the only one they really did was, was Luna, and then, uh, GAME is another one that's more of a, a tokenized piece of the kind of infra that helps other agents. But I think the rest of them have been pretty, uh, organic in the sense of, you know, builders coming on that aren't related to the platform.

Um, but which of those would you say have traction?

Uh, the AI XBT one, um, uh, Sequoia one.

What's funny about that one is that AI, that one just shills Solana all the time, but it's a, it's a base AI.

Yeah.

It's, I mean, shill Solana tokens.

Yeah.

It actually has like nailed a lot of, or Random trades.

Yeah. Wait, so do we feel like this is big enough? So in 2021, like what was the big enough narrative? It was like, yeah, like ETH flipping Bitcoin, uh, these all L1s, like DeFi was big.

Oh, this reminds me of like DeFi Summer in a sense. Not that it'll get—

I think AI is the biggest narrative.

Like, yeah, it seems like it's big enough. So it's like, yeah, so you have Virtuals, which is like the infrastructure play, and then all these agents on Virtuals, like you guys are just talking about, and then What happened? Isn't that AI-16Z1? Like, weren't they scammers or something?

Like, that one is like— yeah, that one, I don't know if we have to really go into it, but it— I don't know, it seemed kind of—

it was more specific to Eliza. But yeah, we don't necessarily need to go into that one.

Yeah, but I mean, if you want to— but if you want to see— if you just want to— that was a good example just though of like the exuberance and that thing was trading at like half a bill with like 8 mil NAV or something. And it's a decentralized fund, right? Like it's run by AI agents. I also don't think that, like, do we really believe that AI agents are going to outperform humans investing in tokens? The only way I can kind of, I can only see that in the near term is that everybody just copy trades the agent of like a fund. I don't think that they're actually— I don't know, like, I was not bullish on that AI16Z thing because I just didn't think they'd make good investments, right?

I think there's going to be an insane pace of kind of iteration though, and just the amount of information they can consume and make decisions on and just be on 24/7 is definitely an edge over humans, but it'll take some time before they can consistently outperform, like in, in very closed environment strategies they can do it. But once you start to open up the world of kind of, yeah, all sorts of information, it's harder.

Yeah. I'm just scrolling through the virtual stuff. Like it's definitely pretty interesting. Yeah. I feel like this could, this could be a big narrative. This and RWAs and I think like are big enough.

Because DeFi was very immediately tangible and understandable, right? It's just this whole world to trade and hold your assets, and it just makes sense that, you know, there's going to be a consistent trend.

I don't know if it was understandable because most people don't really understand finance, right? Like, most people still don't really understand how an AMM works, even in crypto. I think people just hated banks, so it's like quite easy to to jump on the financial inclusion. And it was like easy to, to understand the meme, I guess. But I feel like AI is actually easier to understand, like, uh, or at least the, the impact is like clearer to understand and like the narrative is easier to understand.

Um, yeah, but the connection to how like AI and tokens and, and, and right now it's kind of specifically just on agents, I think isn't as obvious as like there's just going to be a bunch of money on chain and you're going to have NASDAQ on chain and, or NYSE on chain and kind of banks on chain. And I think that element makes sense. Whereas here it's still a bit nebulous.

Yeah. Outside of like the platforms where like people are launching agents. Yeah. You could make a case for all these different DeFi protocols of like why the tokens would be valuable and stuff. Which obviously a lot of them just became way overvalued and were essentially wrong, but they're still like around, right? And they still, a lot of them still have like very valuable tokens. You know, you can't really say that for something like, for instance, like GOAT, right? Which like, yeah, I own, but it's like a meme coin attached to an AI Twitter account, right? You can't make as strong of a case that it's going to be around in like 2 years than you could the first like money market, right? So it's definitely reminds me of DeFi summer. But it is also way more speculative than DeFi Summer. And there's not really— it's mostly just buying the tokens. It's kind of like popularity contests. Like, you buy tokens of the agents that you think are going to go viral, and then the token goes up with them, right? It's like the attention economy.

But, but so is, is Virtuels like the Pump.fun basically of this?

Yeah, there's a few of them, but yeah, the idea is you pair an asset, you pair your agent token with virtuals, and so it all runs through that token.

Got it. Do they take fees or what's the deal?

Yeah, there's a 1% fee on swaps. Part of it is used to cover inference costs and then part of it is value accrual to a treasury.

Yeah, Mr. Picks and Shovels over there.

I feel like if you're going to— I know, I looked at virtuals and some I saw it ran like so hard and then, but maybe I'll re— I'll, I'll relook at it.

Well, the thing too is like, so that's a good example, right? It's like I had this tweet the other day, no one gave a fuck about AI agents until they had tokens, right? And it's like an important crypto, but it's, it's, you know, people like to, people like to shit on it, but that is still crypto's main use case is that you can financialize things and get people interested in them. And now, like, we'll see where this goes now because all these people are coming in now. We talked about this, I think, on— it was like a month ago when we first started talking about like GOAT and all that stuff. This is going to bring in a lot of developers, right? And you're seeing that over the past month. Um, this definitely hasn't been like a flash-in-the-pan fad. Maybe if it was, I just don't I don't know. I just don't see it like, I think that like, yeah, most of the tokens will go to zero, but I, but I just think that there's just going to be a lot of people building in this area.

I agree. And agents are going to be able to do more and more, have like the ability to trade tokens, have wallets, tip, like get paid in all sorts of different ways, like subscriptions and like FrenTech style bonding curves. And like people are going to build out the infra to just make these to, to just make what you can do with agents, how you can charge for them, way, uh, more granular and bigger. And I think the experiments will get more and more interesting.

There's a really big spread between confidence in, in the narrative, uh, you know, persisting, and then confidence in the underlying assets themselves, right? Where like in, in 2021, you, you can be confident in DeFi and then confidence in DeFi translates to, all right, if that's the case, AAVE is going to be, you know, a permanent fixture, and all these are going to be permanent fixtures. Whereas here there's a really big spread, and you're— you can be confident in agents being prevalent and the growth of them, you know, being consistent. But there's not a lot of, I think, protocols that you can confidently invest in and say in 3 months, if this continues to grow, this will be very prevalent, or you know, even longer time horizons, I think that probably gives a lot of people pause in terms of deploying and also just, you know, reinforces the whole flipping mentality too, which, you know, that adds to the—

Isn't that, wouldn't the best thing just to be like where there, like something like a Virtuoz, like, like the basically that's the pump.fun of—

Yeah, I think that's the one of the safer bets. Right. It's just because you're betting on both the success of individual agents on their platform and the idea that there's going to be a long tail.

What are the other ones that are like that, that are more info plays about it?

There's one on Solana, but it's like a wrapper of PumpFun. Like they didn't really build their own.

YFood?

Yeah. But they're, they're like, you know, burning, I think some of the token based off fees and stuff. Right. Yeah, so you do have some of this.

There's a bunch being built too. Um, we've spoken to a bunch that are building. One in the recent Labs incubator, it's called Q-Star. Now I think they're called Memetica. Been building, been building in this for like 9, 10 months. Um, yeah, then I think the features are going to kind of blow people away once, once some of these new ones launch in terms of what you can, like, what kind of agents you can build. Because I still think GOAT-C, uh, or like Terminal of Truth is by far the best one.

Yeah, also like I'm just looking at the prices of stuff and so I mean, so GOAT is down like, I don't know, 3% today, but I look at all the other agent-related stuff and it's, it's, it's half to two-thirds has been like shaved in the last day.

And so yeah, these things are just Yeah, I think alts in general though, that, that applies to, right? Yeah, everything has been kind of dragging it. It's one, so, you know, sometimes you have the environment where Bitcoin rips because, uh, and acts as a liquidity vacuum where people selling alts for Bitcoin. Um, seems like now it's, it's more just a very Bitcoin-specific bid and, and, you know, ETH is kind of flat. Like, when, when Bitcoin doesn't go up, ETH/BTC kind of chills, and then the second it starts ripping, ETH dollar price doesn't really move much, and, and so it just kind of goes down. But on, on the alt side, you're definitely seeing a bit of a drain, although I don't really see that being more a function of, of people selling those alts for Bitcoin, but rather just kind of rotating in and out because there's not a great deal of conviction in, in some of them.

Yeah, there's just a lot of coins in the middle. I know we've talked about this so much, but it's just hard to— as like a liquid investor, it's just, it's hard to get behind a bunch. It kind of just feels like dead money.

Yeah, because like when the tides wash out on this stuff, it's just like really like, it's gonna be difficult. But yeah, we've talked at the dilution shit to death.

One thing we've seen recently has been, uh, increase in appetite to list, right? I think that's part of, like, with the presidency, that, that was, uh, pretty interesting. I mean, it's been all memes, which I think are more of a reputational hit than a, than a regulatory one, if you want to think about downsides. Um, so we haven't necessarily seen, I guess, I don't know what, like, I don't imagine there's a great deal of regulatory risk with those. But yeah, I guess that's most of what's launching right now anyways. Yeah, it's a little bit sad.

I don't know.

Yeah, I mean, people are, yeah, like people are buying these coins because they're just praying for a listing. And it's like, that's the thesis. And it's, you know, that's not that interesting. I also think that's— it's somewhat of a, you know, if you were to take the, like, the lifetime P&L of on-chain traders, and you can just say skill issue and whatever, free market, they deserve it. But if you take the on— like, the lifetime P&L of on-chain retail versus centralized exchange retail, it's like these memes get listed when they're over a bill, and I don't know, it's just Yeah, except for actually not. But it's just, it's just, they're just like, that's why people buy them because now you have like this extra liquidity, right? And it's just, I don't know.

Did you guys see that Pump.fund? I bookmarked it, the Pump.fund chart. Okay, so I'm eyeballing this. I'm going to say 70%-ish didn't or weren't profitable. Maybe like 5% made nothing. 20% were profitable. I mean, it looks like less than a percent, and then it's like you have made over $100, which is maybe like 10.

But are you just looking at— is that just looking at the bonding curves?

Uh, yeah, this is—

well, does it look at trading after the bonding curve? Because there's a lot of— like, I've never bought something on pump bonding curve, but I've bought a lot of pump memes when it's like off the curve, you know?

Yeah, I can, I can Because yeah, they launched definitely like before the bonding curve, you're hyper gambling. Yeah.

It's also though, these people that put $10 in and it's $20 mil. It's like, that's why people like it, right?

Yeah.

The problem is that the story gets glorified and then everyone—

Yeah.

It's the survivorship bias of like—

I do think AI agent Meta is like also the best sort of candidate to pull mindshare away from memes, just because you have like a meme that's much more dynamic. Like, in the worst case, you have a meme that's like more dynamic, can evolve, can keep being like iterated on. Obviously they also have a chance to fuck it up, um, but yeah, I don't know. And also people who don't want to do memes can kind of rationalize they're buying something that's not pure vapor, um, because there's like an AI thing associated to it, um, but you haven't really seen it. To be honest, yeah. I mean, obviously it's early.

The counter is like retail likes a picture of a cute dog or a cat and they're much more likely to bid that.

Also, all the agents are still memes. They're all listed. They're all created on Pump for the most part, or like on these wrappers. I guess Virtual's a bit different.

And I wonder to what extent this stuff will get regulated or not, like memes. I've been thinking about that recently.

Yeah, I was thinking about that too. Meme coin regulation. And so here's the tricky part.

It's just pure gambling, right?

It's like, but it's—

and gambling has, has, is regulated everywhere. And it's like, uh, it's also just like an activity that, that doesn't really give anything to society.

Okay. But here's, here's the, the, here's the, the thing that's a tough distinction though. What do you do with all this AI agent stuff? Because they're essentially meme coins right now. It's just, you believe that they can transform into something more over time. Right. And so if you're going to regulate meme coins, you know, a dog with a hat, uh, Frog with whatever, uh, frog has. Um, like, if you're gonna— the— all the meme— all the AI agent coins are on PumpFund. They're all essentially meme coins. Um, and so I don't know. I think that— I think that the AI agent speculation is a net positive. Um, I, I like— I do think, even though it's mostly meme coins still, like, I do think that money speculating on that is a net positive.

Yeah, it's also tricky. I think conflating it, like the regulatory side with gambling, like part of the regulatory reason around casinos is to ensure that, you know, they operate fairly and not, you know, the odds are what they should be and not rigged. Whereas here it's not like player versus house in a very controlled environment. It's kind of just PvP. And like, yeah, I mean, I think like Pump.fund did a good job of like some self-regulation in terms of protecting people because it forced, you know, liquidity to be locked. And, and so that, that helped avoid like the early-day rugs. And then it was more just kind of, you know, user to user. Um, I just don't know how you'd regulate the meme coin sector.

It's not just that though, right? There's like age restrictions, which, you know, we've seen today aren't obviously happening with meme coins. There's like advertising rules about how you can like market these things. There's tax stuff. Yeah, I don't know. And then there is also like the tech safeguards in Level Playing Field where a lot of these things are like getting sniped by bots that are They're dumping them on people. Like, I don't know, I think there's a lot of ways in which this, uh, this is like kind of squarely— it should lie squarely in the, in the gambling thing. But, or at least they're not going to be left alone.

They're not going to be left— I don't think that they're just going to be left alone forever. The, the last administration had this, like, what is it, techno-anarchy? Is that the right term I'm thinking of? Where it's like you go after the lawful and leave the lawless. And that's kind of what they did, you know, they'd go after Uniswap, they'd go after Coinbase, they wouldn't go after FTX, they don't go after like a lot of pure rugs and stuff. Uh, you know, maybe that changes now, right? Maybe you do get stricter. I think there probably will be something though that like touches meme coins. I don't think they're just going to be left alone forever now.

Agreed. Agreed.

How about that DeFi bull market, eh? November 5th to 6th, 2024.

Well, that's the thing. It's just like, I think, yeah, honestly, like the Murad stuff is becoming more true where it's like you just, you're kind of stripping out, like even though all the DeFi summer stuff was insanely overvalued, like there is the narrative there that you could like, you know, you could believe in it. And now it's like you're just taking out that bullshit side of things where it's like, it's just all the memes and attention now. That definitely feels like that's where we're heading more and more. Maybe that mean reverts on some of these projects that actually, you know, aren't like, are reasonably valued. But for the most part, that seems like it's just gaining steam.

Which is, yeah, I would not have predicted this. Uh, yeah, kind of wild.

Is there a world where it reverses?

I mean, listen, if meme coins led to the AI agent meme coins, and then the AI agent meme coins led to something useful with like crypto AI, then you can say meme coins are worth it, right? So that's like the optimistic.

I mean, there's a lot of legit— don't get me wrong, like the meme coins capture a lot of the attention and we talk about them a lot, but there's a lot of legit stuff being built in crypto AI too. Um, and I think the other most exciting area for me is just the stablecoin adoption and some of the payment stuff we're seeing, like with especially Stripe, some of the stuff they're releasing. But yeah, they do capture a lot of attention. I also gotta imagine being a builder, like just building heads down on one project and working really hard on it and seeing like meme coins happen and, and stuff pumping while you're while you're just heads down on one project's got to be pretty demoralizing. Like, the, the DeFi builders that are on, like, the, the projects that aren't quite tier 1 that didn't make it, uh, but that have built really good products, it's got to be pretty—

I don't know though, are they really good products if nobody's using them though?

Uh, that's fair. Um, some of them have a lot of people using them and still don't really trade that well though. Like, you know, something like— I mean, CowSwap, I guess, got listed recently, but like, that was an example for a long time.

Something that has like loads of users but doesn't really trade loads of fees though. I think, you know, going back to just the— to start to trade on fundamentals, and if you kind of look under the hood for some of this stuff, it's hard to rationalize a very high VAL.

Yeah. It's like the old startup thing. You, you don't want to have cash flow. Actually, it's better not to have it.

Ross Hanneman, no revenue.

Yeah, it's definitely, yeah, definitely interesting where it will go. But like, I don't see it changing, at least on the retail side. Like, retail just wants to buy memes. Like, they don't care. Like, the level of diligence is so low, they just want to buy stuff they think is going to go up.

And like, but there's pockets of things that do really well that are like Grass, um, and like has performed really well.

Um, yeah, that's gonna be strong.

Yeah, but this is honestly probably healthy for the market over like not the meme stuff, but like, you know, if the other stuff isn't— because the meme stuff I feel like will sort itself out as gambling. But I think people realize they're taking a real gamble when they bet on a meme versus like you can kind of get tricked into buying one of these low float, high FTV things that you think is going to like change the world or change finance and then get wrecked on it. It's just calling a spade more of a spade.

One thing I'll say on the memes though is like, if you're listening to this and you're like new here or something, don't believe this, like, you know, meme coin supercycle, memes will never go down, all this stuff. Obviously they're like, memes are going to get pretty wrecked at some point. Um, now, I mean, we had this debate internally. It's like, will more wealth be just like destroyed through memes and— or like just how it is every cycle? And yeah, I didn't really have a good answer because like everything goes down like 80%, 90% every cycle.

Yeah, but in the— I don't know, like, uh, that— are the jokes still funny when the price is down 90%, right? Like Aave is still running, doing liquidations. Um, you know, like there, there's at least like a few. And memes had sector winners too, obviously, but with, with, uh, the utility coins or whatever, it's clear that there are some, some things that just keep plugging along and working.

Uh, yeah, I mean, I'll say I thought winners too, right?

Because that's, that's the big thing I think is that, yeah, some of these things will be intercycle winners. I think a lot of people aping memes are just gonna like miss the forest for the trees.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, last cycle, listen, I thought I liked generative art. I thought it looked good. And I don't think generative art looks good anymore.

Well, that was like, there's a famous tweet, like WIF was pulled back from 4 to 1, and then somebody tweets, oh, I get it now, the dog has a hat. And like, WIF is at like a dollar, and everyone on Twitter is like, Bro, this isn't the time. But yeah, no, I definitely think price is like, price continues to be the most important fundamental for everything in crypto. Right. And that's, yeah, it's just like, don't delude yourself into thinking that, you know, well, I think it's easier, but like the positive is like for people getting wrecked is like, I don't think I think it's easier not to like get deluded that this meme is going to like change the world, and it is a gamble versus buying something like last cycle.

Well, no, if you believe in the cult thesis though, people do believe it's changing the world. Like, I know me and you will look at memes and we'll realize that at the end of the day, these are still valueless meme coins. I don't know if everybody feels that, especially if they buy into like similar, like the Morad thesis.

But like, was it you that posted the Black Print? I don't find the Morad thesis very, very compelling. We kind of discussed it before. But I do think that the Black Print by, uh, you know, Alexander Goode, like the idea of an AI-native internet religion with a, with a coin around it, I can definitely see something like that happening at some point in the next decade. Like having an actual internet cult based around some kind of AI religion. Um, I could see that like gaining traction at some point.

I think that's gonna be pretty bearish for society though.

Very bearish for society. I think all of his— I think he's one of the most like interesting but also depressing people to, to follow. Um, yeah, I do think it would be very bearish for society.

He's like, everyone, everyone celebrating Bitcoin 90K is actually celebrating like the demise of the US, like, uh, like the US fiscal situation or whatever, like the bursting of a sovereign debt bubble.

To round it up with markets, do we see, uh, you know, we've had a scenario Bitcoin up, alts kind of down.

Now we're getting Bitcoin's pullback and alts fall off a cliff. Yeah, that's what, that's why I keep on looking over at you because it's like Bitcoin is gonna— if Bitcoin goes down a bit, like, I like— alter already down with Bitcoin up. Like, I think they're just— it feels like stuff's gonna fall off a cliff if Bitcoin sneezes. But obviously, like, you can have shorter-term pullbacks and the market can still go up. But it is definitely like, it's a lot more difficult to know what's going to perform well long term. It's— then it felt last cycle like— I don't know.

Yeah, last cycle you just buy anything. Yeah, it's like Tao, for instance, is down. Like, Tao is down, like, it's down a good chunk, like 20% or something since like GOAT launched and since all these AI coins started coming out, right? And you would think like largest liquid AI type play would rip in that scenario, right?

It was like the only one, right?

It was like the only one, right? And now these agents are launching on Solana, so it's like and you couple that with, with just like the, the, the flows issue on TAO, right?

It's, you're still going to have a pretty decent amount of selling that always needs to get absorbed.

Yeah. It's just like the stuff that seems like it's safe from dilution.

I'm like, yeah. Bearish. Are people bearish here then? You, you, I know you're bearish, Duncan, or slightly bearish.

I'm not, I'm like, right. I think that, yeah, I would not be surprised if we kind of like take a breather for a couple weeks here after what we saw. But I don't think we're like getting hammered or rocked or anything.

Yeah, I'm more so worried about is there going to be like the alt season that we like— the alt season that we saw in 2021. That's more what I'm kind of like fighting with. It definitely seems like I missed Radium, and Radium seems like it's You know, on Solana, just like really well captured. Like all these exchanges, like Binance is probably crushing it right now. Like Radium, Hyperliquid is doing well. Like all of these infra plays, I feel like are well positioned because they just get all the volume through this and they're the real winners. Like they're the people extracting the money, like the Photons, the Bullexes, the Bananas, the Trojans. Like, you know, I think Photon made like $17 million in fees last week. Like, those are the real people winning from this. They don't care if the market goes up, down, sideways. They just want volume. And yeah, I think that that's like the safest way if you want to get outside of the majors, um, and not risk just like being diluted over longer periods of time. Like, even like we just talked about with Tao, uh, is to own these exchanges.

Um, just those things seem to dump with everything else though, and they don't pump as much.

They— I guess, but they don't go to zero. Like, they survive through the cycle, whereas all— a lot of this stuff will like be hot for a little bit and then just die and never come back.

Yeah, that's fair. So what do you think, John? You, you played— you played this pretty well. You were levered going into the election, been pretty vocally long. How are you— how are you feeling now?

I would have expected there to be more alt exuberance with how BTC has run up, um, and what's coming in, in the next administration. So, uh, I think just structurally, if we get a BTC flush, you definitely get a slightly bigger, um, alt one. I don't, I don't think it goes to absolute shit though, because it's not, you know, in, during the summer chop you would see really bad alt moves on BTC moves because there was so much uncertainty about, you know, what the next several months look like. Whereas here, I, I do think there's still going to be a decent amount of capital that's actually looking to, to buy, um, because the, the longer-term view is still really positive. So, um, you know, there could be a scenario where you get like a, a BTC flush, uh, uh, alts move with it, and then they'll kind of bottom while BTC bounces around because you'll, you'll see some seller exhaustion and, and some capital that's actually looking to buy. Because, you know, if you're, if you're thinking on any longer-term horizon, it makes sense to be bullish. Um, there's all, you know, going into it, there's the, the, I think the common trade was like, you know, buy the election, sell the inauguration. And then as that narrative gets kind of proliferated, uh, it starts to get front-run. And so it's, it's hard to make any of these things, uh, and any of these kind of calls far out because they're so path-dependent, right? If we flush early, then, then you don't necessarily need to see what inauguration, whereas if we really run up beforehand, then you do. So I think the biggest risk to a large flush is definitely Master Premium compression, like a big one. I think, you know, you'll see some temporary one, but he's going to continue to bid. And it seems like there's some positive movement on the Strategic Bitcoin Reserve, right? If you think about that and you think about the probability of that happening, If it's, if you assign any decent probability, right? If you're like thinking 10 to 25%, then, you know, the price that it would be if that happens times that probability is like what the expected value, I guess you can say, BTC is. And I would say it's much higher. So it's hard to be bearish on longer term horizons. I think you'll get these periodic flushes and this kind of seems like one of them. At least on the alt side. But, um, I'm, I'm basically a buyer of any meaningful flush here. Um, uh, but we kind of feel like we're in no man's land, which means you sold some, or you had— you have, uh, I, I kind of hedged out. Yeah, I've sold some, and then I've, I've like shorted a bunch of ETH as a hedge. Um, but I feel like you're not seeing— it's funny, ETH/BTC doesn't really didn't really go down when BTC came, pulled back. It's mostly going down when BTC goes up. So perhaps there's like seller exhaustion on the ETH side, and that's not as attractive of a short anymore. Um, like funding's come down on ETH, and it doesn't seem to, to really nuke on an ETH-BTC basis as much when BTC pulls back, although it's kind of coming down now. Um, but yeah, I, I'm, I'm kind of a, a, I'm a buyer on any decent flush, and I think You know, we've seen people try and do the buy memes that haven't been listed and play the uplisting game. So I think that made sense to some degree. The question is like a lot of these memes seem to stall out in the high single digit or the mid single digit billions. You know, you're kind of like WIF in particular and potentially like the Pop Cats, like post-listing, there isn't as much upside. And so people are shifting. So I think there's probably some, upside in, in the memes that are like high 8, low 9 figures that have caught on. And, and, and there's a chance for them to get, you know, a 5 to 10x on, on attention and then a subsequent listing. So I think there's probably better bets to be made in that area than on the absolute major memes.

What, what are you gonna buy if we get a flush? What do you want to buy? What are you hoping to buy if you get a flush?

I would definitely want to buy some— I, I still think if you get a major flush on, on, on memes, like the big ones, even like PopCat and WIF, I think those are a decent buy. I'd like to— I think like getting a longer-term Doge bag makes sense. Um, if so, if we get a flush there, uh, I think that, that's, that's gonna be a good buy. Um, ETH, I don't really have a strong opinion on. Here, I don't really want to be like short or long it, to be honest. It's just because how much ETHBTC has come down.

I think you can kind of make the argument either way.

But I don't, yeah, it's not something I really want to hold. And then, and then like some of the smaller memes I'm still accumulating, so I'm not going to share those.

Okay. But so it's memes. It's mostly memes.

It's mostly memes.

Yeah.

And then like fundamentally, I think. I like Athena a lot here. You know, the, the, they're going to, the TAM keeps expanding as, as OI goes up and price goes up and funding stays elevated. And so I think there are pockets of fundamental value that, that make sense. And that's certainly going to continue being one of them, although, um, that, that's kind of just being thrown out with everything else.

Got it.

What about you?

Yeah, I definitely was in some cash before the election because I was worried if the election went the other way that we basically see what we're seeing in reverse. And so more cash on that side. And then I think probably just the stuff I was talking about, like the picks and shovels type exchange plays, because I'm not super confident betting on any one single name that is like, uh, which its price is a function of attention. I'd rather just buy, you know, stuff like Banana that I've talked about in the past. Probably not more Banana because I have a lot, but like other things that benefit from just overall trading volumes. Because that's like one thing I'm confident in, Bitcoin keeps on going up, there's going to be a lot of trading volumes in the alts. It's just you know, it's less confident on which alt's really going to outperform over a long period of time.

Uh, yeah, I'm just like, I'm, I'm still paying attention to all like the AI agent stuff and then we're working on our year ahead reports too. So, uh, stuff like that. Um, I don't know if I really change. I'm not really looking at anything I'm not like looking at now. Most of my time I was looking at this AI agent stuff.

I was not as aggressively positioned leading up up to the election and still, still have not had like 25% stables or something just because the Athena yields are too, too juicy to pass up. Um, but yeah, I've sold a few of the— I did ape, uh, uh, chunk of memes and I've sold a lot of that, um, recently, uh, and I'm not sure what to deploy it into. My main alter, yeah, definitely Ina is the biggest one, and then Banana and are like utility alts, Banana and Meta as well. Um, but I'm kind of just— most of my exposure comes from Majors, honestly, right now. Like, my biggest positions are just Majors and stablecoins.

Same. I'm kind of just like waiting for the SOL all-time high because I don't know. Yeah, maybe like SOL going through all-time high could make on-chain SOL go even crazier, right? It's like this reflexive loop in a sense.

I feel like majors and stablecoins are probably just the safest with how— yeah, without the dilution that's happening.

Yeah, yeah. Cool, guys. All right, good episode, and I'll see you all in 2 weeks.