Hivemind: Trump's Clean Sweep, the Bitcoin Reserve, and Finding the Fastest Horse

I think the biggest other source of bullishness, which is insane and like hard to price in because of how significant it would be, is the Bitcoin Reserve, right? If that's even a slight probability, then like everyone else kind of needs to front run it. And so it's hard to see a world where we're not just kind of going up for a while.

Now we can finally see if this industry can come up with anything besides number go up technology and number stay flat technology, like Bitcoin and stablecoins seem to be the two things that have product market fit and that we've made. I think a lot of us in the industry have used the regulatory environment as our main reasoning for why there haven't been more mainstream consumer apps. And so this is kind of now, these next 4 years are kind of the place to prove it. And see if that's true or if it'll always just be a giant casino.

Nothing said on The Hive Mind is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens. This podcast is strictly for informational purposes only, and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our own opinions, not financial advice. Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Hive Mind podcast. Today with us we have our usual crew: Seteris, Duncan, Jan, and myself, José. So we're recording here on November 7th. We're so back. Trump has won the election with a clean sweep. I'm going to hand it over to our resident American on the podcast, Jan. To cover what that means. And then we're going to have a fun podcast just discussing what all this means for crypto, who the biggest winners and losers are, what crypto policies we're potentially most excited for, etc. But, Jan, why don't you take it away?

Yeah, no, great day for crypto. I think this outcome, if you were following things, was pretty obvious. I think markets had him at a decent favorite. Um, and, and, you know, if you kind of just think about the, the shift of the voter base and, and, um, you know, where people were 4 years ago, it was pretty clear that, that he was in a good position to win pending, you know, shenanigans and a bunch of other stuff. But so the end result is that we have a, a Trump victory, and then in addition you have you know, sweeps across the, the House and the Senate. So previously the Senate was, um, blue and the House was red. And, and basically in scenarios where it's split, it becomes a bit more difficult to pass legislation. Um, and so, you know, thinking about what the benefits of the, the sweep are, you have— so with a, a Senate that's aligned with the president, it's much easier to pass legislation. It's much easier to make appointments, um, you know, whether it's judges, uh, people to your cabinet, kind of a lot of the, the, uh, elements that are really needed to allow for a president to kind of implement the policies he wants to do. And so it's not often that you have, um, this kind of alignment. I think the last time— well, last time you had a supermajority, which is what we have here, is Obama, and he passed Obamacare. And so the supermajorities basically have 60 Senate out of the 100 instead of at least 50, which then you get to pass much more kind of, um, larger-scale kind of legislation, which Obamacare was. But here, you know, you have an environment where, um, there, there should be the ability to, to create a lot more friendly regulation for— towards crypto. And then I think in particular, we saw quite a few crypto-friendly people coming into office across both the House and the Senate, which is really bullish. I think the specific number was, um, yeah, Stand With Crypto has a thing. So yeah, 263 out of the House of Representatives, like 263 pro, 116 against. And then in the Senate— this is not total, this is just newly elected, right? So you had 263 pro, 116 anti. And then in the Senate you had 18 pro 12 ante, and then the Senate went from being kind of 49-51, uh, 51 blue, 49 red. It's currently 52, but it might be as high as 54, 55 depending on kind of how some of these last elections shake out. And so yeah, it really kind of creates the environment for, um, a lot of optimism around the space. I think, you know, you had the the previous big moment, which was it became no longer a kind of career risk to invest in the space where it became consensus. And now you still have that tailwind, of course. And then now you have the regulatory side where ideally we see an influx on the builder front. And so, you know, thinking about what happens next, You know, Trump's talked about trying to, uh, looking to fire Gensler on day one. It's unfortunately not as straightforward as that, where they— he technically doesn't have the ability to fire him. Like, the, the Gensler has a term, and I've heard, you know, uh, rumors that he's, you know, realizes that his future path in politics isn't really there anymore, right, under this, uh, current administration. And so he's kind of going scorched earth potentially, and and trying to, you know, burn things down. But I think it's going to have much less teeth now with kind of how much of a reversal we're going to see in, you know, in terms of the approach from the government towards like a reversal in the hostility. So like the way you can get rid of him. So typically the one, the incumbent leaves with every new administration because it's just like time for them to appoint someone that they want. And so that's kind of historically happened. Here. But, but like, that was, uh, based on the, you know, the, the chairman's doing, not a function of the government removing him. So, you know, it is kind of up to them. There are legislative paths that can be taken to kind of get rid of him. And so I think with all of the branches of government aligned, those should be easier. And ideally, he kind of just, um, doesn't make this a drawn-out process for his sake. But yeah, it seems like there— this is the, the ultimate kind of catalyst from, you know, a market that was previously super hostile towards crypto. And, and, you know, aside from the Gensler element, I think the biggest other, um, source of bullishness, which is, is insane and like hard to price in because of how significant it would be, is the Bitcoin Reserve, right? If, if something like that happens, then like that— I think the numbers float around was like a million BTC over a couple of years. And if you do the math on what that needs to be on like a daily basis. It's basically just like an infinite bid. And so the game theory in terms of, you know, if that's even a slight probability, then like everyone else kind of needs to front run it. And so it's hard to see a world where we're not just kind of going up for a while. Obviously there's going to be chop as people get ahead of their skis periodically, but yeah, it seems like we're we're as back as we could be.

I think we're going from sideways chop to, uh, upwards chop. And yeah, it's basically like fastest horse season where you get angry if you're not on the fastest horse. Um, yeah, it's hard to see like any downs. Like, I'm talking like for crypto from this outcome. The only thing maybe is like, uh, I've been reading a bunch that like Interest rate cut expectations now with Trump are like kind of cooled off a bit. So you can maybe see that as like the one negative, but like all the other factors are just like way overpowering that. I don't even think you have to worry about— like you have to really think about that at this point. Um, personally, like obviously BTC did well. I kind of expect— tweet this yesterday— like, I think yesterday kind of made sense for like an ETH/BTC bottom. Um, I think that you will probably now see a lot of capital come into non-BTC stuff because the regulatory, um, hostility or ceiling, whatever you want to call it, seems like it's going to be lifted in a pretty big way now. Um, and so, I mean, we haven't really seen it yet. We still had like no ETH ETF flows yesterday and like the day before. Um, but I think that this kind of makes sense. Like right now it's all crypto capital that's kind of been moving ETH over the last day or two. Um, but I do think this could kind of be, yeah, the catalyst to start, start to see like those ETFs start to get flows now. And then that kind of trickles down to like everything non-BTC, right? It trickles down to like, you know, DeFi stuff, trickles down to other L1s. Um, it's just— yeah. Um, so maybe like BTC dominance tops on like around Trump presidency, uh, like the win. I don't know how people feel about that.

I think it depends on the reserve, probably, right? Like, it's, it's hard to see if it—

yeah, if— yeah, but even still, that's not coming for a few months.

But like, what would the reserve— like, the reserve's so ludicrous.

Yeah, like, that would be actually absurd.

So like you said, there's Polymark and all that. Like, what is the— like, does anyone actually know what— if that's even a real possibility?

Yeah, the reserve would be cool.

Um, okay, the least on presidency, on no volume.

Yeah, there's like no liquidity. It's 27%, but there's no liquidity, so you can't use that number for anything.

That seems high.

This seems way too high. Yeah, but I mean, I don't know, let's talk about— I mean, the reserve, whatever, there's not much to say about the reserve.

Oh, the reserve would be insane.

Yeah, but I mean, there's not like—

sure, I think firing Gary Gensler and putting in like Hester Pierce would be like insane.

I don't think she wants it though.

Yeah, is that, is that right?

Yeah, yeah, I've heard the, uh, what's that other guy Who, who, yeah, yeah, him. And then the other one floating around was Robinhood's chief legal officer that was floating around for like a few months now, which would also be like a good win. I think one thing I'll say with this is like, now we can finally see if this industry can come up with anything besides number go up technology and number stay flat technology, like Bitcoin and stablecoins seem to be the two things that have product market fit and that we've made. I think a lot of us in the industry have used the regulatory environment as our main reasoning for why there haven't been more mainstream consumer apps. And so this is kind of now, these next four years are kind of the place to prove it and see if that's true or if it'll always just be a giant casino. Right? Um, so I think while everybody is happy now and excited and, yeah, bullish on prices, um, I do really hope we start to see some cool stuff come out of this.

I think you kind of get in, in waves, right? So initially the, the repricing happens, I think, on DeFi, but I'm not super optimistic that that rally has a lot of legs because, like, it's— what is it solving for? It's, it's removing downside risk, right? But But upside, um, price discovery is still going to be a function of fundamentals. And so I think on a lot of, uh, these protocols, it's hard to rationalize a lot more upside. Um, so I guess like they do reprice because, you know, part of that, the current price factored in regulatory action and some, you know, uh, big, uh, kind of negative surprise. Um, but I think the, the, like you mentioned, you know, the more optimistic and, uh, longer-term tailwinds are builders coming into place and, and actually being comfortable doing that.

But yeah, like not being afraid of getting arrested.

Well, like, you— I think, you know, there's, there's, there's the current framework, um, and so without Gensler, there's less concerns around, um, regulation by enforcement and kind of unknown punitive actions. But there still really isn't a framework for building, right? So you kind of almost need that domino to fall before people get too comfortable. But at the same time, you could, you could really build and not launch a token. And then, you know, once there's clarity on the token side, you can do that. So it shouldn't be— cause too much of a delay. It's more delaying on the token side, I'd say. But ideally, there's a lot of—

right now it's just speculation, right? You would, you would need like some of the anti-money laundering regs to change, like definitely the security stuff, like having a framework for, for how to launch a token. How to do distributions, how to raise money with a token. All this stuff would be really helpful. I do think there's some DeFi projects that really benefit from this, especially if there's good stablecoin regulations, which is something that's been talked about a lot where they could be used as legal tender. It clarifies the tax treatment and all this kind of thing.

Does Jason Yanowitz mean for Athena legal tender?

Yes. USD legal tender. Well, you've already seen Athena turn on the fee switch, right? Or like a proposal from Wintermute to turn on the fee switch yesterday. And I think you're gonna see a lot more of that soon. And that's one of the most cash flow generating DeFi projects, plus a stablecoin. I think it really benefits from this regulatory regime and from the just animal spirits in general returning to the market and funding going up. Any others that you guys think actually really do benefit from this.

And I guess within like DeFi for now, I mean, they all kind of repriced, right, immediately higher, like UniAve, all of them, like the ones that got notices and stuff.

Yeah, it definitely allows a path for like these tokens not to just be forever useless anymore, which was kind of what it felt like before. Um, but then as Jan said, right, it's like doesn't necessarily mean that all of a sudden their fundamentals are going to improve out of nowhere. But like we know, all this stuff is super reflexive. So, you know, if ETH does bottom and starts going up again, then like it's going to bring the fundamentals of all these things up with it.

Yeah.

So I definitely think DeFi, I think what's probably the most interesting one would be like you know, RWA, I think could get really interesting. Like if they say like, okay, we want to have like Apple stock on chain or something. And like you could bring on like an insane amount of capital, like tokenizing, you know, a lot of existing, like, you know, venture funds or private equity funds, uh, putting stocks on chain. Then like, you know, putting those into like an Aave type thing where you can get liquidity on them. Like that's where I think things. And obviously that's, you know, years out with regulation, but, you know, with, uh, with like the balance of power how it is, I don't think that's like a non-zero chance by in the next 4 years. And that's when things can get really crazy because you're bringing like so much capital and so much liquidity on-chain and unlocking so much of it and allowing borrowing on it. That should just like really bring everything up with it. And I think that like the only real chance that happened if if you had like a kind of Republican sweep or like very pro-crypto sweep. So I feel like long term that could be really cool. And then obviously like positive DeFi in the short term and then like, you know, memes still probably do well. I feel like—

I mean, the AI stuff though, too, like, yeah, the AI seems like he's also— AI has also been facing a lot of potential regulatory headwinds from the big closed-sourced Web2 companies. And it seems like open— not OpenAI, like OpenAI, like open-sourced AI and decentralized AI might actually be a pretty big winner from this too.

And there's speculation that he'll ban, that he'll repeal the executive order, the Biden executive order immediately. And on Open Source AI, yeah, like, uh, JD Vance has spoken out for it. And obviously Elon—

what was the executive order, just for context?

The— just like overregulation on, on AI companies, basically.

Okay.

Um, yeah, and there's— I mean, it, it started off and then it got expanded to, to more things, but, um, yeah, it was, it was pretty universally sort of— I mean, actually Elon ended up endorsing it by the end of it. He was initially pretty against it. But, uh, yeah, the speculation that Trump will repeal that straight away and go into more of like a deregulated, um, AI. He also wants to like really encourage, uh, sort of GPU farms and, and energy and stuff to be produced in the US. He's really big on that, obviously, which should be pretty bullish. He also said rightly he wanted Bitcoin to be produced in the US.

Yeah, that's one of the like the non-speculative policies. He'll not— like, is in a policy that we're pretty confident he'll implement, right? Is some kind of friendly, whether it's tax structures or whatever it is, to get more mining done here. And I think just overall, you know, part of his, um, campaign has been kind of increasing energy production in the US, uh, which is incredibly necessary.

Yeah. What do we think on like memes versus I guess, like VC coins or fundamentals coins here. Like, seems like if there's proper regulation, uh, memes— like, part of the reason for memes should disappear, or like some people mentioned memes was because you couldn't in a regulatory compliant way do proper coins with cash flows and stuff like this. Do you think that's the case?

Yeah, I mean, that's one of the sources of FUD. The other is just, you know, the fact that you have unlocks on you, and then, you know, valuing VC tokens on a fundamental basis on top of the fact that there are people unlocking on you makes it harder to bid. I think, you know, the positioning on some of these is probably negative enough that they'll have a pump where people need to unwind. I think that's also like part of the ETH narrative is that it's used as a kind of a pair trade for a lot of stuff. And so there's kind of unwinds that need to happen there. Um, so I think Jason Yanowitz recently, right? Yeah, just a positioning trade, or, uh, I mean, I, I, I, were you already long either?

Do you just—

not really. I, I, I had like very little spot ETH. Um, I just bought a bunch of perps yesterday basically. Um, it, it—

if there—

if this isn't the time for it to move a little bit, then it's going to be hard to see when it will.

Yeah, on meme coins first, I actually I don't know if I think they're going to get crazier, to be completely honest. People like them. And I think the unlock thing is more important. Like we talk about turning on these fee switches and stuff and sure, there'll be maybe a couple tokens where the fee switch is enticing, but people are going to get bored of that pretty quickly when they're staking their DeFi token and getting a 0.5% yield. They're going to get like pretty bored of that pretty quickly.

I definitely think you need to like differentiate on the high, like low float IFTV tokens, like you said, Jose, it's like there's some that are like literally vapor, have no business and launch at ridiculous valuations.

You know, maybe those have pumps, but like, well, like does the fundraising method change too now? Right. Which kind of helps solve a lot of that low circ IFTV stuff. Right. Will we be able to do, um, ICOs, get a bigger— ICOs, get a bigger portion of like circulation.

So everyone is unlocked or like, why does the fundraising add?

No, I'm just—

fundraising method solving the low flow, high FTV means you're just unlocking everyone right away.

I know. I think you can get like a bigger, you can do like a raise to public, like right before you launch, maybe at like a lower—

yeah, I think you get more, but everyone's unlocked though, is the thing.

Well, no, are you just launched lower?

No, I think on the public raise, everyone can be unlocked. I mean, I think there's many parts to it. First one is you tap into more capital. Should lead to like—

there hasn't really been a shortage of that though.

I mean, there's going to be more capital if you have, if you can involve retail and stuff as well into the, into earlier stage. I just think it mainly disrupts that last round the projects do right before they go public, where it's like the mega funds that take it at like, you know, a place where they think it can 2 or 3x potentially. And then you just do that as an ICO instead, you'll be able to get a better valuation. You can like unlock everyone in the, in the ICO, get some float out there that way. Because I, I just think it's way easier to get float out with an ICO is kind of the main thing. Like, because you're not giving people tokens with a zero-cost basis, you're actually making them, them, them pay for them. And it's just a way better way to get float out.

Yeah, but I see, but like we're talking about ICOs in the last round. Like the first rounds are, are, are, they are as they are in, in this situation. If we're just talking about like, so I mean, those either are locked up or they're not and they're low cost. I mean, it's like there isn't really that much of a difference of if you're like doing the IC— so if you're doing a round at whatever, $400 million, and you do it private versus an ICO round, in the end, if you're doing it private and locked or private and unlocked or ICO and unlocked, it's kind of the same thing. I'd say if anything, ICO peeps probably have more paper hands than some of these funds.

Yeah, I think it's more of a change into like, Okay, there's definitely like a few different things you're talking about, but I think it's more of a change in like what you actually launch it at. You know, you do that round at $400 million with ICO people and then you launch at like, you know, a billion or something versus launching at $10 billion.

ICO just means there's— because you can sell unlocked tokens, so you have proper public market price discovery in the ICO, especially if you have something like an auction and you're selling a meaningful portion of supply, like 10+%. Then you don't have this issue of price discovery needs to wait like 2 years until there's enough float unlocked that you can actually price this thing.

Like you actually price it. But if you unlocked all the private investors on the launch of the token, right? Isn't that effectively accomplishing the same thing? You get more supply unlocked, price discovery. It's just like public's dumping versus investors dumping, but in the end it's still same price discovery, same supply unlocked.

Yeah, but I feel like that's like frowned upon, like the current matter. Oh, sure. I agree.

I'm just saying like, In terms of what you're trying to accomplish, I mean, then you can effectively do that.

Just, I still think private market price discovery is different from public market price discovery, to be honest.

Okay. I think though, I think that the big takeaway from the fundraising and what really matters is that more money is going to start going to applications, right? Because infra has kind of been seen, I think everyone is sick of infra funding now. We have like a ton of infra. And infra was always seen as not only from a builder perspective as like a low-risk way to make a lot of money, also from a VC perspective, right? If you're just building like generalized infra, you're probably not going to get caught up in, you know, like more of these money laundering or other, other laws. And so it was seen from both a builder and investor perspective as like the safe thing to do. And now with the poor performance of the infra tokens, with the regulatory environment changing. I've even seen on Twitter, even before the election, there was all— there was— it seemed like there was kind of a vibe shift of more funding towards apps. And so I think that will be kind of the main driving force now going forward. And applications also just naturally launch at much lower valuations too than infra. And so I think that could be the main takeaway moving forward, which I also think—

yeah, I agree. And I think there's a lot of benefits to the ICO thing. I think another one that it can have is that if one of these primary platforms— and we're obviously like investors in Incubated Legion, which is one of the main ones here, but there's also Echo— if any of these get significant traction, they could replace the centralized exchange, or at least supplement centralized exchanges in terms of getting users. Because a lot of the centralized exchange listing thing is just the way that you go to market in crypto, for better or for worse. And I think if these primary platforms start doing well, that's where early-stage retail will go for alpha rather than going on Binance and buying the high float, low FTV. And then you can replace a lot, because I think a lot of the stuff that happens with low float, high FTV and the infra bias and stuff is actually like centralized exchanges are driving it because they historically have had a preference for infra. They like encourage these Discord games to get loads of users and stuff like this. The high float, low FDV sort of benefits them, like notional volumes are higher and there's like all sorts of ways in which they're the primary beneficiaries of this. And so I don't know, I think there's a lot of ways that if ICOs come back, sort of a lot of things get better.

I think exchanges definitely aren't the primary beneficiaries of it. It's definitely the teams and the investors. Like, the exchanges are just like—

don't get to sell. They're just, they're, they're just locked.

I know, but even if it goes down 90% or like, you know, people who— what's the initial float usually? Like from an airdrop or from like 5 to 7? Yeah, like from airdrop or, or usually is what it comes from. So like, I feel like, you know, even some teams maliciously—

market makers—

and yeah, market makers like farm their own airdrops, have those agreements. Even it goes down, I think you need to differentiate between like, you know, projects that like literally have no path to being worth this, and then, you know, projects that still did the high FDV, low float thing but have a product like something like Athena, which I could still launch at like a high FDV low float, but it does have like a good product. I think the buckets and the projects in the first bucket where like they are never have a chance of making this money and are down only are probably still going to have some pumps but are done. And then, you know, something like Athena actually has a project who did this has way more of a chance because they actually have a real product and the regulatory environment has shifted. In terms of like, yeah, capital raising in the future, I definitely think things like Legion Echo, I think Hyperliquid is probably going to do stuff. Like that as well. But I think it's, it's kind of on the teams more so than the exchanges. Like, I don't think Binance likes it. That's why they're taking— I think Cedrus, you linked a tweet from ThinkingUSD in, uh, the chat, but why they're asking for so much of the supply.

Binance is a huge beneficiary of this. Like, in— there's, there's so many ways in which they benefit from this. Like, one of the big ones is just the launch pool.

Like, yeah, well, yeah, they're asking for, they're asking for 10% of the supply because they know that these things are going down.

They're the ones getting the, getting the supply at the high FDV and selling to people. Like, they're fully unlocked. Like, the BNB stakers who are getting, like, if, if you look at BNB yield over the last 2 years, I saw a tweet on this, like 60, 50 to 60%, just 'cause you're getting like the ENAs, the, the everything who loaned, like everything which launched on the launch pool.

That's why it's always trading with negative funding too, is 'cause everyone's just like, delta-neutral BNB and just collecting that yield.

Yeah.

And so like, they bet like their stakers benefit loads, right? Like CZ, they're the ones getting, they're the ones dumping these tokens at the top. They benefit from like notional higher trading volumes. They become the only place that you can do like price discovery and just launch a token. Like I think there's loads of the teams and investors, like investors are just locked until the cliff, which is the most telegraphed event of all time. Investors really don't benefit from this at all, other than if you think there's some anchoring to the launch price and then like psychological anchoring to the launch price.

There's also two separate users though. Like, I think, you know, we're talking about the— like what Legion would unlock doesn't completely cannibalize what Binance does because it's still the primary venue to get massive volume, right? Like you can still— it's still the place you want to be to get a bunch of liquidity. I think this can compete in terms of, you know, getting some retail in, but it's not necessarily going to replace Binance's, uh, bread and butter, which is, you know, having a bunch of users and having a bunch of liquidity.

Yeah, I just have a question for, for José on this. Like, who actually decides? Is like, wouldn't it be the exchange, the team, and the market maker come together and decide what they want the launch price to be? Or who's actually deciding?

I don't think the launch price matters much.

For the low float, high FDV coins, it definitely—

there's just one tick. It's just like one tick at the launch price.

Yeah. Okay, fine. The price that it's in for the first 48 hours, like, just the market.

It's, it's a market.

Who's buying it at $20 billion? Just idiots?

No. Well, it's a couple things. It also depends on kind of the strike prices that the market makers' contracts have set up, right? They typically end up trying to defend those a bit better. And so then just— so, but like, it is just like animal spirits to some degree though. There's only so much volume and liquidity the market maker can control.

Yeah, I just think that like, it's definitely like, there's definitely some like, the teams, the market makers, and the exchange all have to take some responsibility versus being like, oh, this is just the market, this is the market price.

But you, like, the only way to get more float out there would just be to do big, bigger airdrops. And like, you don't want to give away 10% of your supply.

Or doing— yeah, or the fundraising thing. You do the massive ICO, or like you sell it.

It's just really hard to do that right now.

Yeah. And so that's how like changing things in the future could, could be good.

Agreed.

In the end though, it's— I think, you know, if you think about it, if you think about what the Project is giving up in terms of the amount of tokens in the silo. It sounds like a lot, but, but, you know, you kind of have to think about it as like, what are the alternatives, right? Trying to do DEX-only liquidity, you're never going to get nearly as liquid, and it's going to end up costing you a lot of tokens and incentives, right? Uh, so I think it's, it's more they're doing it from position of power, but, uh, as in the centralized exchanges are, but the alternative isn't great. And so in the end, it's still kind of the best path to getting your token as out there as possible because like price is a form of marketing, right? And so you can even try and like cope your way into justifying it as, as like good marketing spend too.

Yeah. And I definitely think that just like having more tokens on launch, so like you could just run, you know, more seasons, more points, like have more transparency around that and get to a point where it's actually a healthy amount of tokens trading. Because like how many times do you have to see the same chart pattern of these things just launching and getting completely wrecked? And then I think it's, you know, anyone who bought on the launch who was like initially a supporter, excited to buy, excited about the project, just gets insta-wrecked. And it's just really not the optimal way to move forward because it's just really retail and like the people genuinely excited about the project who end up getting screwed.

Yeah.

To play devil's advocate, I guess if you're thinking about, you know, project launch and then where the project is in 2 years, Do you think the project will be better off if it releases a bunch of the tokens early so the chart doesn't like rip higher and then kind of melt down? Or do you think the project is better off if it, you know, distributes some and then leaves a bunch for ammo to grow the business, grow, you know, like uses incentives? Like, I still think that in the end, 2 years later, the project is fundamentally in a stronger place doing something more low float and then using the token as an incentive mechanism rather than—

Yeah, and that's where you have to like, break it down depending on which project, right? Because we're kind of bucketing them all. And I think like there's ones that are clearly like, these things are never going to be worth remotely close on any fundamental basis to what they launch at. And then there's ones, you know, that launch super expensive, but they have a really interesting product. And like in a couple of years, maybe they could get there if crypto like grows a lot and they grow a lot. So it's kind of hard to say, but in general, I think we're getting sidetracked on this project launch discussion.

To bring it back, do we want to talk about Polymarket? That's something that is an interesting one. What do you think? Like, it's clearly a big winner from this election cycle. I think they did like $600 million on election day of volume, something like that.

I think it was just a big win. For like crypto too, because if, I mean, first of all, the fact that Polymarket was 60/40 for a while, even if Harris turned out to be right, it's not that like Polymarket was necessarily like technically wrong, right? Because it's like, you know, 6 out of 10, 4 out of 10 times you would expect it to be Harris anyways. So I think there's a lot of confusion just overall with like polls versus prediction market the whole time. But I mean, my, I mean, like my dad was talking to me about Polymarket. He's never talked to me about really any of this stuff except for he like watches some prices. Um, I had other friends like talking about Polymarket when the election was on. That's what I was looking at the whole time in real time, right? I was looking at Polymarketing in Kalsi and seeing like when they started spiking, um, and I was watching CNN the whole time too, and it was just funny how different it was, um, how like on CNN they made it seem like it was a close race the whole time when it was like not, um, and then Polymarket kind of sniffed that out. I thought the, the story of what the, this French trader did was kind of cool. He, he commissioned like private neighbor method type pools, which they've actually— I saw Robin Hanson, who's like the Futurarchy inventor, respond to this and say how like this is a method that's been around for a long time. So it's kind of surprising that it worked. So maybe he was lucky that this like just kind of like worked for him. But I mean, that's like, yeah, that's why prediction— but that's why prediction markets are— that's why they're, they're cool, right? Because this is— it's surfacing you know, more information. Alpha. It's surfacing more information and people will call it like manipulation or whatever they thought it was. But this was literally a guy running private polling and, you know, having the conviction to put what seemed like was the majority of his net worth down onto this. Um, so it's, it's such a wild story, but I think it's amazing for crypto because there's like, I saw Tarun tweet this too, how like Polymarket could have the moneymaker effect. And the Moneymaker Effect was this guy who, this normal dude, he was an accountant, like 27 years old, and he won like a big PokerStars tournament. And then everybody got into like poker after that, right? Because everybody saw you could kind of make it like this. And like, I don't know if this is going to get people coming into prediction markets or it's just going to get them like coming into crypto and stuff, but like Yeah, and seeing Shane on, you know, CNBC today, talking with all those guys, um, it's definitely like, it's great to see a crypto app win the mainstream, you know. Yeah, for something as important as like the election.

Well, it's super important because like it's, it's also the most objective way to, to get probabilities on it, right? Like if you're hearing from CNN and networks, they're, they, they have their own biases that they're embedding on these outcomes. And then the public polls aren't really accurate because the business is just to get the poll out rather than be accurate. There's like a handful that do well, but this is like truly the one, you know, global synthesized opinion on how this outcome plays out. I think the other conflation is like polls aren't showing probabilities, right? Polls are just showing that they think 52% of the voters are going to vote, but like poll and probabilities doesn't map one-to-one. Like if the polls were 60-40, you know, the PolyMarket would be like 85-15 or something like that. So yeah. Yeah.

It's, so it'll be interesting to see if, cuz historically I feel like, you know, this is PolyMarket's big thing and then the volumes just disappear. And even like I'm scrolling through there now, like there's not a ton of relative—

the Super Bowl, the Super Bowl I think is pretty big.

Yeah, no, no, that's like the— I think the next one that I've seen that's the highest, but like the rest are pretty, pretty illiquid. So it'd be really cool if they build out more. And what I think, you know, now that there's more favorable regulation, if they do a token and like could help, you know, bootstrap some markets that way, like help liquidity providers, maybe they could grow this into a bigger thing. So that could be a bull case, but it is really cool. Like, cuz what that guy Freddie had the chance, he bet $40 million on Trump, had the chance to make $20 million cuz he had that opportunity. Then he went and conducted all these private polls and with the Opolli market, that just doesn't exist. So you could think of applying that to like any question that is posed there with, you know, with deep enough liquidity. So like, I don't know, something kind of cool could be like—

and not just that, right? It'll surface like the insiders, um, like the people who have privileged information.

Yeah, just surface. It's like just actual signal.

The structural headwind they still have though is that liquidity is really difficult to get because it's not— yeah, there aren't other offsetting markets that you can provide. You can, you know, you can't provide liquidity here and then as a market maker hedge yourself in another market because this is the market. So, you know, market making on crypto pairs is easy because you can, you know, balance yourself out. And so you can transfer liquidity from one venue to another effectively, whereas here it's kind of impossible because there's no other place to hedge. So market making becomes very expensive.

Okay, Ian, hear me out. They do a V-curve model where you have like gauges and then people who want to figure out answers to certain questions, put up a Poly market and then direct emissions there to create liquidity on the market.

I like it. I mean, you could definitely charge a bunch in fees, right? Because it's, it's, you don't get to do this elsewhere. So, so like, you know, it's, it's not this fee race to the bottom. You could become, you can get like somewhat extractive.

The main thing is there's been no, there's been no markets that have been interesting on, on any prediction market other than elections. Like, they historically always— their volume peaks right before elections and then trails off. And this is going back to like 2000, um, or yeah, I think that was the, the first one.

Because that's just like the most— like, that has a critical mass for enough liquidity to actually be interesting and people care about it. But like, yeah, if you were to build it out more, there's people who care about like certain niches and segments of markets a lot.

You need both sides to care. That's like, you need like a market that you know, two sides really passionately care about, like, you know. Yeah.

And that exists, but they're just smaller, right? Like on the election, it's like the entire world's watching the US election. Like you couldn't have something that people care about more.

There's also alternatives for sports betting. There, there's, you know, sportsbooks, which are going to be more liquid, more efficient on pricing usually. Um, and then like, you know, I guess on, on like interest rate bets, there's, you know, Fed funds futures that people can speculate on, which you can do in size. So it's also thinking about like, you know, what competition they have as they expand their, um, like the, the, the surface area of their bets.

Yeah, like the ones that I think are kind of interesting right now that I'm looking through is like Does Trump end the Ukraine war in the first 90 days? 50% chance, 49% chance. Like, stuff like that is kind of interesting. Like, if that got a lot more liquid, that would be a very interesting market. And if there is signal in there somehow—

yeah, now there's money on— I mean, yeah, it's kind of like on ending or continuing a war. Um, can you imagine if like there was millions of like hundreds of millions of dollars on if this war will continue.

Um, yeah, but it's like you're, you're talking on like the order of billions in magnitude. That's like, like, you know, hundreds of billions that is like influencing it rather than, you know, this is still pretty small. Obviously it's like kind of crazy to be betting on that, but as like the kind of truth machine that, that you're talking about, that stuff is is interesting to, to know, like, kind of, because there's like a big thing in, um, in Japan, like during World War II, they had like pretty tight propaganda about like, are they winning the war? Are they losing the war? And like the first people to figure out were like the financial markets, right? Like that they actually were losing the war. And, um, and like kind of like higher up elites and, and finally like started selling their they're kind of more speculative assets and investing in real assets, like stuff like that, especially like it's a little different today with, with how communication happens, but a market is kind of like seeing through the truth of what may be like blasted on the news. Right?

Yeah.

Along that same vein, you do have like indirect assassination markets, right? There's one where it's like, will Trump be inaugurated in in, uh, in January and it's like 96% yes, but that, that, what is that delta? That's basically assassination.

Or he's old, he's 80, but yeah, it's him not being around or something crazy happening.

Interesting. That's a good point. All right, moving on. Is there anything, uh, I wanted to move on to just venture generally, like how do we think that changes with with a Trump presidency. Is there anything else on the crypto front we wanted to touch on? Maybe— because I agree with you that Bitcoin dominance is, is probably peaked here unless you have the strategic reserve. And then, um, I think ETH and SOL both benefit. SOL probably more because the ETF is still ahead, um, and just it has PMF.

Well, I think, I think what we could see, which would be way more bullish than like more venture money, is more liquid funds, right? Because now you're going to have liquid tokens being a lot more interesting from like a fundamental basis. And so this could be the golden, the golden, the golden run for liquid, for liquid crypto.

You see that right there?

Maybe. I mean, Arthur's been beating the, Arthur's been beating the liquid and he hasn't really been wrong. There's been a lot of, there's been like a bunch of good liquid tokens this year. You can kind of get lost in looking at Bitcoin DOM. Because it's basically all against ETH, like market cap-wise. So there have been for like good liquid funds some pretty— but yeah, I could see this just like, you know, Bitcoin dominance dropping is good for like liquid funds because that's like kind of their whole game is to outperform Bitcoin and like to outperform ETH really too.

Yeah, I think liquid— we need more liquid money than venture money because like you're just funding all this stuff. That doesn't— like, I think Liquid rewards stuff that actually has like traction and users and like, or attention, I guess, like on the meme side. But talking about these Liquid funds in particular, they usually like buying stuff that has a strong fundamental case. So I think you probably want more of that. That'll help create a more efficient market on, on the fundamental case side of things. Versus, you know, ventures still funding a lot of speculative things and a lot of new things that need to be built out. So definitely, and it's not like that's not important. It's just like we've had such an overwhelming, like, amount of money in venture relative to liquid for the size of the markets that I think a move towards liquid is healthier for sure. We should talk a little bit about memes because I feel like that'll be debated now that regulations opening up.

Yeah, we kind of did at the beginning of this. I think it's, uh, yeah, I think it's like mid-IQ to say that memes are like dead now.

Yeah, I still think it's like, like, I think why memes were kind of born out of this cycle were definitely a function of the regulation and then like the low float, high FDV stuff. Um, but now that they're kind of here, I don't know if just because that improves they're going away because people really love trading them and like the volatility on them and kind of like maybe the bigger societal trends of like people feeling financially, um, you know, needing a big win essentially and wanting to chase stuff with higher volatility definitely all still exist. And I think like the cat's kind of out of the bag and I don't really see them slowing down as long as there's memes that are still like, you know, pulling 10x or 100x, then I don't really see them slowing down either.

I mean, I also think you're probably just going to get more applications now built around memes, like, like infrastructure for memes and stuff, right? Like, I know there's Pump and there's Moonshot and there's some other things, but like, you're going to see way more than that. So yeah, I, Honestly, it's kind of just like, as I said at the beginning of this, it feels like it's now fastest horse season. And so, you know, it's the Golden Bull and it's kind of like you want to be on the fastest horse. And if your thing goes up less than another thing, you get angry. But yeah, I don't see like, I just don't see, you know, DeFi just like sucking all this meme coin. Liquidity. Maybe there's something new though that comes out that'll be cool.

Yeah. What are some bear cases for the market right now? Because obviously I think everyone on Twitter— I think inflation reaccelerating and like interest rates, uh, just like general stocks not doing poorly or something.

Uh, yeah, I mean, there's, there's a chance that— I mean, Trump has some pretty inflationary policies, right?

Yeah. So just general macro risk. Yeah. Cause I, I, it was pretty depressing there for a bit where it was like, just the regulation side looks so bleak. So that's lifted, which, you know, obviously we've seen a lot of—

I mean, it's also possible that Trump doesn't deliver on any of his promises. Like politicians have done this before. Like this is kind of like politician MO.

It's a drug.

Yeah.

I mean, the thing is he's, if he's bringing all these people on board, then it's going to be much harder. Like what? What, what, the other thing, just leave it a status quo.

Yeah. The other thing too is like, think about this, okay? The, like, if the Republicans come through on all their promises, there will be no reason. If you're obviously, if you're in crypto, you, you're going to vote for other things than whatever. And I'm not an American, okay? But if you're like a single issue voter and you voted for Trump because of crypto this cycle and they follow through on all their promises. Then what's going to convince you to go back and take the risk of going back to the other side, right? And so there is like a benefit for them for in the long term of like continuing to follow through on all this because they can kind of like permanently, you know, get—

where do you think crypto is on his priority list? You know, because they've bought everything to us, but I imagine there's a lot of other—

but no, but he can be pro-crypto without doing anything besides stopping to do things, right?

Yeah, it was kind of like the Elizabeth Warren thing where it's like, I'm putting together an anti-crypto army. It's like, why? Like, who actually, who actually wants this other than like, like obviously FTX? A lot of people got screwed over and you know, if there was more regulation on that, that could have helped.

That wasn't crypto though. That was just fraud.

Yeah, I know.

It was like a cent.

Yeah.

So, but it's like, it's kind of like, what is the upside? For him. Like, yeah, maybe he gets in there and doesn't do the reserve, which I think is— the reserve's kind of absurd, um, and doesn't do like some insanely pro things. But I think it's definitely in their interest, stablecoins for like, you know, demand for the debt and just not alienating this user base, having more donors.

I mean, definitely stablecoins. To play devil's advocate on the token stuff though, there's like A lot of law, like regulations around how to do a public company, right? And many crypto projects are arguably just flaunting those, going public with much less transparency, like much less disclosures, much less oversight. And that's definitely led to some bad results. It's like, do you— for sure, what crypto shows is there's like so much demand for this, right? Like there's so much demand for aping stuff beyond what the public markets are serving. That it does feel, and especially with the IPO window just like being closed for so long, it just seems like that needs to— if the regs don't change on going public, then crypto will continue to just serve this like no matter what you do. But I'm curious, like, how, what do you— yeah, what's the solution there?

Like, yeah, I think that the problem that the lawyers or like these projects have been saying is that You know, they, there's just is no framework for how to do this properly. And maybe it does come in and it's like a lot more burdensome than it has been in the past, which like is definitely possible. But at least like people can build this technology and build these things without being afraid of going to jail or like, you know, with some certainty. I think just like the market really hates uncertainty. And then, you know, on your point about aping things, I think that's why like meme coins are so popular. It's just like people just want to buy stuff that can go up a lot, and that's like a more of a symptom of like cultural and economics.

Yeah, I think, uh, if you read Matt Levine's column yesterday, it was pretty good. And there's basically two outcomes now from the Trump— if he really is to be like pro-crypto, one of them is like actually creating new rules and papering new regulations and working with the industry, and that'll be good for like the long-term health of the industry. You know, the, the number one, one reason why US markets are the best in the world is because they're like deemed as like safe. Um, there's like fair rules, there's investor protections. And so that's why a lot of institutional capital comes in. And so that's like one— that's like the— I would say that's the bigger bull case. And then the other one is like this hands-off approach where they just stop enforcement, don't make any new rules, um, and just kind of leave it be. And, you know, things will get like probably a bit crazy, prices will go up and stuff, people have fun, but it won't— it probably won't gain like that institutional— those, those like big institutional flows because it'll still kind of seem like a bit of a joke, I guess. Um, so hopefully we get like some, some like good thoughtful— um, you know, most people want just like new rules. It's not like we want no rules and just people to be able to like launch rugs and raise a lot of money for bullshit. So I think if we just get some like new thoughtful regulation, that'd be the best kind of like outcome.

Yeah, I think both paths are BTC goes up one in, in, in the one where there's less constructive regulation and, and or just less interesting stuff getting built, then BTC DOM is going to be a lot higher than it would be otherwise in a world where there's good regulation, which leads to interesting apps and kind of a longer tail of stuff.

But yeah, the good regulation, putting like the tradfi stuff on chain, like the tokenization of like private equity funds, venture funds, stocks on chain, like that I think is where you actually have like, obviously there's going to be a lot more regulation with that than is currently exists. But that's where, like, you know, everything, that's like the whole vision, like everything happens on-chain, finance happens on-chain, like that's the true supercycle for crypto. And it's like, is there liquid tokens or venture bets that you can get exposure to that right now? It's kind of hard to know, but definitely I think a massive positive for the space, just bringing that legitimacy and capital onto these rails. Even if it's like, you know, gated, uh, KYC or stuff like that.

Yeah, but hard to see a world where memes don't do well in all of this, especially in the next couple years.

Um, yeah, it's just like people are— don't have a lot of money and they want to hit it big on things. And like, not even— they don't even have money. Even if you do have money, like, if you see— if anyone sees something going up 10x or 100x, everyone's interested in participating.

I just think if you could buy like OpenAI or like Databricks or Anthropic or some of these things on-chain, like if you have crypto AI projects that have that level of narrative, like something like Naus Research, which is sort of a legit, like, you know, state-of-the-art AI lab, and we find good ways to tokenize these things in a way where you're confident you have exposure to the upside, I think those things will like eclipse memes just because of the capital they can attract.

I think they're the same, uh, they're tapping into like— there's, there's definitely some overlap in capital but not, not really, right? Like memes, you, you break out into the people playing the scratch-off pump fund early stage stuff and then the, the larger ones that are listed that people trade as market beta. Um, and then this I think would be its own bucket where, uh, it would bring on a lot of capital and maybe shift away some of the more fundamentally investors. But I don't, I don't necessarily know that there's going to be that much cannibalization of meme demand with that. I think it is just going to be a decent amount of new money. I'm not saying zero, but I don't think it's going to be enough to kind of slow down the demand for the memes too much.

Yeah, I agree with that. I wanted to— we have like a few minutes. I'm actually curious. We've never kind of done this, but like, when do you guys think BTC hits under $100K now?

Yeah, that. And also I'd love to hear how everyone's positioned. Like, what are your biggest What are your biggest bags right now and what are you positioned? All right, $100K, I think, um, Q2 2025 or Q1 2025, let's say.

I think before end of year.

Oh, really? Damn.

Uh, we know how Jan's positioned.

I think probably like sometime in 2025. If it were to happen before end of year, that would I think things could get really crazy.

The setup is there.

Yeah, I want to say— I want to say before end of the year, it's just like there's what, a month, 2 months, maybe Santa Claus rally, Santa Claus rally, pump it 50%. I'm actually going to say like Q3, which is a bit delayed, I guess. But yeah, yeah.

I just think like the tax cuts are nice, right? But I think the one boon that we haven't had in our lifetimes has been deregulation. And that is so massive in terms of like GDP growth across so many industries, even like housing costs, like a third of housing costs is permits and time and all this other bullshit.

Really? A third? Yeah.

It's like, it's something gross. And so I think like that I— there's a world where that gets priced in before the end of the year. And, and then you just, you know, if you look historically, anytime there's been a really good first three quarters, last quarter is really good. Uh, there's typically a lot of chasing that happens. And so I think we have a really strong end of year, and, and you can— yeah, there's a chance where we get it. Um, I don't think it's like the, the fact that you have a red sweep is priced in at all.

So am I the most bearish one here? I just said sometime in 2025.

It's not even an answer. That's just like you don't want to give an answer.

Well, yeah, in the year 2025. Wait, I have to give a quarter? I have to be quarter specific?

No, it's fine. How are you positioned?

Uh, oh, I definitely sold some stuff and I talked about that before.

Yeah, you de-risked.

Don't— yeah, going into the election because I thought that if, um, Kamala like basically we'd have the opposite candle of what we've had, right? Like, if Trump was priced in at over 50% and then we had this on the back of his win, and maybe we added some extra juice because of the, the full sweep, but you would have like something similar in the other direction. And, you know, then like a lot less positive outlook on, on where regulation is. So I thought that the risk was more to the downside. But now that it looks like, you know, barring anything crazy, he's going to be in and regulation is going to open up, you know, where I've had the most success, as José says, the gem hunter is searching for these kind of smaller projects. And so now that this is just like, you know, 4 years plus of like fertile ground for these smaller projects. And, you know, although majors ripped right off the bat, you typically see this, you know, delay in the smaller projects and the alts that—

So you're cashed up or you have no majors?

I'm 25% cash, maybe 30% cash. I was like 31, 32, like probably 33% cash before the election, then got rebalanced down to whatever, like low or high 20s. Yeah, no majors, all in like different projects I think are cool. Actually, something I'm doing on my Twitter, which I just funded an account a few days ago with, uh, $100K USDC. I'm going to be trying to run it up. I'm going to post like some videos and, um, some, some like weekly updates on that. So that'll be soon.

Active trading on that?

Not active.

What are your top 3 biggest positions then, other than, yeah, other than cash?

Bananagun is the biggest one. Then I have a lot of Synapse, probably too much Synapse. But, and then also I had a pretty big position in gold miners, but then the rest of them I have like a ton of different things that—

Why the gold miners, by the way? When I charted them, they didn't seem to outperform gold. I sent you that like TradingView.

Yeah, it's like Bitcoin miners. Don't outperform gold or don't outperform Bitcoin over the long run. But like, there can be pockets where Bitcoin's ripping where they have like insane outperformance.

Okay, but gold has been ripping. Why haven't they been ripping, you think?

Uh, well, they were doing really well, and then the biggest miner in the index, Newmont, like had terrible earnings. It went down 13% in one day last week. So, all right. Yeah.

All right, Jan, how are you positioned?

Um, yeah, I got— I'm like, before into election, I got like 1.5x long. Um, that's very long. Just long BTC, SOL, memes, uh, in terms of like perps. And then I have, you know, spot positions across, uh, certain less liquid ones that, that are like longer-term plays. Um, but yeah, just kind of kept it simple with the fastest horses.

What are your— so BTC, SOUL, and then memes. What are your big, biggest, uh, I got, um, WIF, PopCat.

I should have probably scooped some Pepe instead of ETH in hindsight, um, like same bet, better, better horse, um, but yeah, mostly those. And I picked up some Bonk. It kind of seems like they're going on listing sprees.

All right, interesting. So you don't have any, any utility coins other than, uh, Athena, of course.

Okay, yeah, that's my, that's my biggest utility coin bag.

Yeah. Ceteris, what's your, uh, I got—

I mostly have majors for the most point, but like SOL, I'm still overweight. SOL, because I think like while ETH BTC probably bottomed, I think the SEAL thing, SOL ETH just goes up. Uh, so like SOL BTC ETH, SUI. I like SUI. It's like my alt L1. Um, and then outside of that, it's like, you know, I like GOAT and, uh, Meta has always been— I don't know if Meta is considered like utility. I've just like always been bullish on MetaDAO guys, but I mostly— yeah, it's mostly just like, I just like majors and like, you know, farming and stuff. I don't trade perps or anything.

Yeah. Did you get—

so you did not get long for the election?

I mean, I— well, I'm like 100%, I don't own stablecoins. Okay, so nice.

Like, I think like here Meta is a good example of something where You know, I sold some.

The problem is just like the liquidity on it is very bad.

That's like, yeah, like I, I don't necessarily think this is a good price or bad price. I sold some recently. Um, so, but for example, just to like kind of highlight the point that I was making, it's like, you know, November 4th it was $2,900 and right now it's trading at $3,000 and it's like pretty low. So it's up like, you know, not that much. And it's pretty low liquidity. So obviously like the price jumps around a lot, but you know, these are like the smaller type of plays that are, let's say like, you know, sub couple hundred million market cap that, you know, if you believe in them and have a fundamental case, they don't always like— the really liquid stuff that's like known market beta is the stuff that's going to rip, you know, on the Trump victory and the less liquid stuff that, you know, requires more diligence to understand and get bullish on and where there's like, you know, really possible returns like multiple, multiple times.

Yeah, you also have a way bigger, bigger risk of getting like stuck with stuff like that, right?

Yeah. It's just like you have more time to react. It's like, okay, you have this favorable regulation come in and it looks like it's gonna be a really good environment for the next 4 years. Not everything in the market can reprice to that in 24 hours or in real time as it's happening, right? So like, there's a lot of opportunity to go across these kind of smaller projects and look for stuff that's, you know, fundamental. This stuff is going to— like, the election results are going to like massively improve the fundamentals, or just crypto going up in general is going to massively improve their fundamentals. And like, take positions, especially like if you're, you know, retail investor, not trading like crazy size. Like, there's a lot of time to kind of look for that. Versus like all the really big names that are correlated to the market are all going to rip. And it's like, yeah, if you miss those, if you miss the move on the election, then you know how much juice is there left there. Uh, it's kind of like more dependent on the market where you can kind of get these smaller ones that move not necessarily in line with the market, uh, and have some delay and some opportunity.

Nice. Myself, yeah, I have Majors.

I'm going to guess that you're just like mostly ETH and Athena.

I have—

so actually, SOL is my biggest, uh, notional position, but then ETH's the second biggest, sadly. Um, and then ENA, um, and memes. Like, and I have Meta and Banana Gun as well, but it's just hard to buy those in— yeah, hard to buy a reasonable amount of those. And then memes, but I'm not—

you mean it's hard to buy a reasonable amount of Banana?

No, I mean, I mean mainly Meta. To be fair.

Yeah. My biggest—

That is really annoying to buy.

Are Banana and Rollbit.

Oh, interesting.

Nice.

So all 4 of us have Banana Gun.

No longer.

No, no, I don't have Banana Gun.

Oh, you sold yours?

A long time ago. For a mistake, I lost all the money I sold it for.

What'd you put it in?

Frontech.

Oh yeah, that was a fun loss.

That was like the— yeah, that was the fastest I've ever evaporated money.

Same. Yeah, straight down as well. Like, there was never a—

there's no— there was nothing.

A single relief pod in Vibes.

Yeah, there's nothing to do. Uh, all right, I think that was, uh, we're over an hour now. Wanna maybe— yeah, wrap it?

Yeah, thanks very much for tuning in, guys, and we'll catch you again in, in 2 weeks where hopefully Bitcoin will be nearing $100K. Yeah, thank you.

Thanks everyone.