Jason Yanowitz – Co-founder, Blockworks - Ep025

Welcome. This is Coppercast, a show dedicated to exploring the wonderful, if somewhat technical, world of institutional investment in crypto assets. I'm your host, Tyler Kenyon. And if you've ever attended a Blockworks event, my guest today needs no introduction. In addition to organizing some of the best events in the space, Jason and his team at Blockworks also pride themselves on delivering some of the best content to both help retail and institutional investors alike to understand the crypto landscape. Welcome, Jason.

Thanks for having me.

So Blockworks has had a similar sort of growth trajectory as Copper, our own company, and we sort of started around the same time. But I don't know the Blockworks backstory. So tell me where it all started for you guys.

Yeah. So my co-founder Mike and I co-founded Blockworks in May of 2018. We're coming up on 4 years here. There is one underlying thesis of the entire company, which is that crypto will eventually become one of the largest asset classes in the world. And, you know, In your position at Copper, I'm assuming you probably agree with some semblance of that thesis. And the second-order impact of that thesis is that crypto, that the number of investors who come into the ecosystem and who start allocating to this asset class will grow 1,000-fold or 10,000-fold, right? And so for us, you guys approach it from an infrastructure-building lens, right? Custody and trading. We approach it from an information lens. And we said that as the number of investors who came into crypto grew a thousandfold, these investors were gonna need a better source of news and information and data and analysis and research and insights. And so that's what we've built. And so Blockworks over the last couple of years has built some of the largest conferences in the industry, the largest podcast network in the industry, one of the fastest growing newsletters in the industry. We have an amazing journalism and editorial team, and we have some fun stuff that we're launching in the next couple of months that are aligned with this research and data news and analysis mission of ours. So that's a little bit of the backstory.

So part of that is heavily focused on investors and what they need in the space. So why did you choose to go down the path of an institutional investor-focused event information editorial company instead of crypto writ large and retail?

Yeah, that's a really good question. I think it kind of stems from our background. So I used to work at a venture capital firm before this. And my experience in 2017 of trying to get the GPs and the LPs of our firm to actually allocate to crypto, whether it be in the private markets or just buying Bitcoin, was incredibly frustrating. I would send them links to Reddit and links to Twitter, and I actually remember sending them a YouTube of this guy Crypto Bobby, and they laughed me out of the room because they said that they were not going to allocate to an asset class because of some random guy named Crypto Panda, Crypto Whale, and Crypto Bobby on the internet. And so that became the big pain point. And so yeah, Blockworks focused for the first couple of years entirely on this institutional audience. Our thesis has changed a little bit though, which I'd be curious to get your take on at some point as well. The definition of an investor is changing. The definition of an investor, we kind of say it used to look pretty stale, pale, and male, right? It was kind of this like hedge fund manager, financial advisor, We think that what crypto has done, because it's been a very bottoms-up industry driven by retail for the first 10 years, is that the definition of an investor looks very different. So yes, we, we focused on the institutional allocator for the first couple of years of the business, and that built a really good brand. But now we're starting to rethink what an investor looks like in crypto and build products for that market as well.

I suppose it's not even just the definition of an investor is changing, it's the definition of an investment. Itself is changing, right? Like, for as long as I've been in this space, people have said the Howey Test is out of date and needs to be updated. And I suppose that's probably reflected in crypto and who your users are now and who your sponsors are as well.

Yeah, I think you're exactly right. Like, my thesis— and it's not even a company thesis— it's my thesis is that everything gets financialized. Everything ultimately gets financialized. And what happens when different products get financialized is that it opens up different baskets of people who were never investors before. So let's take sneakers, right? What financializing sneakers did with different marketplaces for sneakers is, and the ability to invest in sneakers, is that now you have a bunch of maybe sneakerheads who had never bought a stock, bond, currency, or commodity in their entire life, and now they're allocating to sneakers. Whether or not they realize it or not, that's an investment in sneakers. And so our thesis is that all asset classes, whether it's art or sneakers or fine wine, whatever it might be, those will all get really just fractionalized and turn into— and markets will get created around them.

Are you a sneaker man?

I'm not a sneaker man.

You got some fresh kicks on.

I just got some new kicks. So yeah, no, I appreciate you looking out for those.

So some of the events that you guys host— Digital Asset Summit, one of the longest-standing institutional events in the space. You've got Permissionless coming up in May, which is going to be— enormous. But I'm kind of curious, if you cast your mind back to the first crypto, like, event you guys hosted, what's changed since then? Just like, is it the quality of the speakers? Is it the quality of the participants and the attendees? Is it the venues you're at? What's, what's sort of been the evolution of events in your space?

Everything has changed. So BlockWorks, when we first started hosting events, we would host 6 to 10 PM happy hours, right, where we had like 7 people show up. In one month, we're hosting a 7,000-person event that's multi-day conference, and the CEO of Robinhood is speaking, and, and Blau is headlining the festival on the last night. So everything has really changed. But I think everything in our business stems from the audience, the audience and the content. So just approaching it from those two lenses, like from the content, you remember 2018, 2019, those are, those are some dark days, right?

Crypto winter.

Those are crypto— as the heart of crypto winter in 2019. And our first conference that you guys supported. I think you guys had less than 10 employees, and we were just hustling to try to get you to sign. You were haggling hard with us. It was probably like a $10,000 deal, like a mini, mini deal or something.

It was, it was an important deal for us.

Very important for both sides. It was May of 2019, and if you think back to what was interesting in May of 2019, it was like, it was these like boring, I'm sorry, I know this is almost your business, I don't wanna rag on it, but like, it was the infrastructure stuff that was just so necessary. So, so, so necessary for the industry, but isn't that sexy, and isn't actually— custody is not actually that interesting. It's so necessary, and it's underlying the— it's so foundational to the entire industry, but it's not that interesting. And that was the interesting thing back then.

Well, it underpins the institutional side of things, but because crypto was so retail-driven until that point, and a retail investor didn't know what custody meant in, I guess, financial services terms at least, so it was that education piece that had to happen. And education's always a bit hard, right? Unless there's some amazing narrative to go along with explaining what multi-party computation and key sharding is, then it's gonna be a bit of an uphill battle. I mean, that's what we found at least for the first 4 years. But when you guys are like curating content, I mean, how do you go about choosing topics or themes? Is it purely a reflection of what you, hear people talking about on YouTube and Twitter? Or, I mean, do you have— not an agenda in a bad sense, but do you have something that you want people to be discussing because it's important for improving the industry?

No, actually. So we don't take any sort— we don't have any sort of agenda. We don't have any sort of, let's push people into this type of content. And I think that's one reason we've done really well. Like, when you look at a lot of the large conferences and podcasts in the industry, or even other media companies, there's usually an agenda. And I'll call out some people, but I love these companies and I love these brands, like the Bitcoin Conference. That is a Bitcoin-only conference. Like, you're not going there to talk about other asset classes. If you look at Bankless, like, Ryan and David absolutely love them, we've partnered with them for permissionless. That is an Ethereum-focused show. And one reason I think that we've done really, really well is we haven't taken any sort of stance on that. I will give a huge hats off to my co-founder, Mike, who, he runs all of the editorial and content at Blockworks. We don't focus on what is happening right now. Unlike a lot of other people, we try to look 6 months in the future. So I remember Mike sat me down in 2018 and he said, our content needs to go towards prime brokerage. I was like, everyone's talking about custody. He goes, yeah, but next year they're going to be talking about prime brokerage. And sure enough, the prime brokerage, the race to build a PB in crypto kind of kicked off. And then a year later in 2019, he goes, it's all about derivatives and certain kind of secondary assets on top of these other assets. And I was like, yeah, everyone's talking about PB though. And he goes, no, it's all about derivatives now. And in 2020, he said, look, DeFi is— at the beginning of the year, DeFi is going to be the thing. Sure enough, DeFi summer. And so I think we try to look 6 months ahead when we look at our content.

Well, the natural question then is, what is this?

What's coming up next? I was, you know, I was really frustrated with myself that I brought that up because Mike is the big brains of the two, and I wish I had him sitting next to me. I think, um, For us, what we look at, like if I had to look at a couple of different things that are happening in the industry, first is when you look 6 months ago, 6 months or 12 months ago, there was a big question of like, will we live in a multi-chain future or not? And now I think I can say with pretty certain confidence that it's clear we will live in a multi-chain future. And so then you have to look at the second order implications of that. Okay, bridges, right? Bridges connect different L1s together. Well, what's like, when you look at the different hacks in the space with Ronin Bridge and Wormhole, those are all bridging, like a failure of bridging technology. So then you have to think, okay, well, what happens? Is bridging the final solution or is it different things that are almost enable composability and like interchain, like IBC and stuff like that, or things like Layer Zero? So that's one area that we're really looking at. The other area that we're looking at is, if you remember DeFi Summer in 2021, in summer of 2020, that really kicked off a massive bull run in DeFi. But then when you look ahead to 2021, the narrative flipped to gaming, NFTs, and then at the back half of 2021, the metaverse.

The—

when attention gets sucked out of a specific niche within crypto, the asset class inherently falls. So that's what's driven the price of things like Uniswap and Compound and Aave and things like that down. I'm incredibly excited about just like what the next wave of DeFi looks like. And I feel like that's where a lot of the big innovation is actually happening, is cross-chain DeFi, which unlocks a massive amount of value.

What other kind of milestones do you guys look out for then, if it's not like protocol related, but for our industry? Is it something like an ETF or an IPO, like Coinbase's IPO? What other kind of milestones do you guys see as not propping up the industry, but supporting the industry and providing that base layer for it to move to the next level?

I think you have to ask yourself, what area of the marketplace are you looking at? So, institutions who you guys deal with need a very different thing. The level of not just custody that they need, but then they're going to ask questions around insurance, right? If I'm a retail investor, I don't think about things like insurance. And so, you kind of have to look at it in two 2 different sides. For me, I actually look at it, approach that from a very anecdotal and qualitative lens. So I look at things like almost who's subscribing to our newsletter, and who's listening to our podcast. So we have a lot of data on just who's consuming this content. And I remember a week before JP Morgan announced, had a big Bitcoin announcement, 127 people from JP Morgan signed up for our newsletter. So you can almost tell that these kind of things are coming. But I think actually you would probably have a better sense of what we need and what doesn't exist. But insurance feels like a big one. But I don't know, I'm keeping a close eye on permissioned DeFi, which on one hand is not really DeFi that much, but a lot of the funds that we speak with are really excited about permissioned DeFi. So, I'm interested in that.

Yeah. I guess it's the regulatory landscape that surrounds all of it, which—

Right.

Will push things forward or completely shut them down. Or push them out into the fringes where institutions can't participate in it, and it just becomes a retail thing for it to live or die on that hill. I don't know. Talk to me about Miami. What's happened in Miami that's made it such an appealing place? 'Cause Permissionless in May is in Miami, right?

Or Palm Beach. We're in Palm Beach, we're in Palm Beach, but kind of an hour north. Oh man, how libertarian do I go here? No, so I mean, Francis Suarez had the famous tweet tweet, you know, I think it was, "How can I help?" Right? And what Francis Suarez, the mayor of Miami, has done that's so brilliant is he's run that city like a startup, right? So he's cold DM'd me on Twitter. I've never met the guy. He's DMing me on Twitter saying, "Hey, you should move your company, you should move Blockworks to Miami." Like, he's out here trying to get a customer, you know? And there are no other government, like, politicians, mayors who run their city, or their state, or their country like a startup, and that's what really kicked it off. I think the second thing that happened is COVID, and there are a lot of folks in crypto who are inherently a little bit libertarian, kind of like, leave me alone, and Florida had the least strict regulations. But then I think the third thing, and the most important thing, is why did everyone go to Silicon Valley in the '90s and the early 2000s? One reason, and one reason only, energy. You can say it's the money, you can say it's the developers, the talent, it's none of those things. It's the energy that just like comes out of a place when everyone is building and excited about things. And there's just a sheer, there's an amount of optimism I think in Miami right now that doesn't exist other places in the country.

Do you think it's gonna permeate from there and hopefully up north towards Washington, D.C.? Like how closely do you think the industry's working with politicians and legislatures, I guess, around the world in effectively creating policy right now?

I think it's— I think everyone's trying their hardest. So if you look at someone like FTX, they spent over $1 billion acquiring licenses last year. I think it was $1.1 billion just acquiring licenses in 2021. That's a ridiculous number. I can't give a very definitive answer here because When I look at something like Copper, do you guys want clearer regulations? Like, of course you do. Are you guys working with the regulators? I'm sure 100% you are. How willing are they to talk? I don't know. But I think the clearest thing that I think regulators are waking up to is that crypto is now too big to fail. And crypto, you can't put crypto back in the bottle. In 2017, if they wanted to shut down crypto, they could have shut down crypto. But you can't shut it down now. You would absolutely ruin millions of retail investors around the world.

I'd love to see the subscriber database at Blockworks with the.sec.gov email addresses or CFTC.

We definitely have. Yeah, we've definitely seen an influx of those. I bet.

Do you get a sense that DeFi is going to be good or bad for that sort of move towards better regulation because of what it is?

It's neither good nor bad. I have the belief that once amazing technology is out of the bottle, it's really tough to kind of cap the lid. And it's really just about like, do— how do— DeFi is not going away. DeFi is the future of finance. It's just how much do local regulators— when I say local, I might say like the US versus the UK, right? If the US doesn't want DeFi to permeate from inside the US, that's— that, I mean, that sucks for folks in the US, but that's— then the builders are just going to go to London, right? And if folks in the UK don't want it, okay, great, they'll all just move to Asia. It's— you can, you can almost look at what happened with Bitcoin mining as an example. Bitcoin mining didn't stop. There was like a 30 or 40% dip in the market, but it's already right back to where it was. Miners just left China and took their mines to places like Kazakhstan and Texas. So you can't stop innovation once it's out of the bottle.

In your show-and-tell segment that you did with us, you looked a little bit at the growth of crypto users mirroring the growth of internet adoption historically. And then we were looking at some of the macro conditions that might force the crypto users into a breakaway and start accelerating beyond what the internet adoption was previously. And one of those big drivers for you is ETH Merge. Tell me a little bit more about why you believe so ardently that, you know, ETH Merge and Ethereum itself will be that sort of reserve asset of financial services system 2.0.

Yeah, I mean, it's becoming abundantly clear that the future of finance will get built on crypto rails and that Ethereum will be the reserve asset of that ecosystem. The ETH Merge is the greatest catalyst for Ethereum that we've ever seen, right? Since Ethereum was launched in 2015, the Ethereum Merge is the greatest catalyst. And that's really for 3 reasons. The first is that it transitions Ethereum from an inflationary supply schedule into a deflationary— it's actually really microinflationary, but when you take into account the burn, then it becomes deflationary. The second is that it moves from proof of work to proof of stake. And if you look at probably a lot of your clients, one of their big mandates is ESG investing. It becomes really tough to invest in an asset like Bitcoin when you look at the energy of proof of work. Not that I agree with that, but that's kind of like, that's their take on it. And then the third is that it turns it into, with staking, it turns it into a yield-generating asset. And if you're an institution and you're looking at this, you see, okay, we want to invest at the forefront of innovation, that's Ethereum. We want to invest in assets that spit off yield, that's Ethereum. We want to invest in assets that are good for the environment or don't harm the environment, great, that's Ethereum, and we want to invest in assets that don't have like this inflationary schedule, like maybe the dollar, and everyone's worried about inflation, and that's Ethereum as well. So, yeah, I'm really, really excited about what happens with Ethereum. Now take into account that the Fed might decelerate their tightening around the same time that the merge happens, and yeah, it makes me pretty excited.

Are there other projects at the moment or innovations that get you as excited as ETH, or what's on your radar?

No, I think just the— I think a lot, like, the most innovative stuff that I see in my inbox for companies that are raising right now are really innovative DeFi applications that are fully cross-chain. I'm really excited about what happens when you don't have these, like, these different Layer 1s with their different communities who don't really talk to each other. I think it does something amazing for just unlocking capital, but I think it does something amazing for unlocking community. And Terra and Do Kwon are really leading the way here. What they've done with, you know, acquiring something like Avalanche, right, for their— as a reserve, as a reserve asset is brilliant, not just because of what it does for the reserves, but because now folks in Avalanche are inherently now aligned with the Terra ecosystem. And I think there's going to be a lot more of that when these technological barriers get broken down between the L1s.

I guess at the same time as those technological barriers are getting broken down, I mean, we keep seeing hacks and things like that happening in the space. Do you think that reflects sort of like an immaturity of DeFi as a technology or an immaturity of DeFi as people who are participating in it? What impact do you see these hacks having? Is it just teething pains?

I just read this great biography on Andrew Carnegie. And in the Gilded Age, like right after the Civil War in like the 1870s, we were just laying a massive amount of railroad track in the United States. And one problem is trains sometimes went, so they tried to speed up the trains. They used to go like 3 miles per hour, then it was like 7 miles per hour, then 15 miles per hour. And that was like, oh my God, this train's going so fast. And they had some issues where the trains would actually start falling off the tracks. Are trains bad? No. Are tracks a bad technology? No. They just went too quickly in building out an industry. And the end of the innovation in like connecting trains to the tracks eventually caught up with where we needed to go. But it didn't mean either of those technologies were a bad thing. And that's what's happening right now with cryptos. The innovation is just kind of run away from where the— what the infrastructure can support. But ultimately that will catch up.

It's a nice analogy. I like that.

I tried it. I tried it. Mike said I'm a huge history nerd. Mike said I need to make more history analogies.

So, okay, cool. How did you guys— how did you meet Mike anyway?

Mike was a college buddy. I've known Mike since we were both 18 years old, and we both went to Emory down in Atlanta. I'm from California, he's from Boston, and we just became close friends. So by the time we had— and we actually were roommates in New York when we moved to the city, and by the time we had launched Blockworks, we had known each other for about 6 years.

Who had to convince who that Blockworks was the enterprise you should start?

I convinced Mike. I wanted to launch a consulting firm, actually. I wanted to launch a consulting firm to help companies, like, build with Ethereum and get into Ethereum. This is back in 2017 when the enterprise blockchain narrative was still kind of rampant, which obviously wasn't really a thing. I came back into the apartment one day and said, I'm going to launch a consulting firm for Ethereum. And Mike said, great, I'm in, because he was actually a consultant at the time. And he woke up the next day and said, that's a horrible idea. Why don't we— nobody's going to trust us. We're like 23 years old. Nobody's going to trust us to buy our consulting services, why don't we host events to actually build trust in the community, then we'll sell them consulting. And here we are, 4 years later, we have no interest in going into consulting, but we sure do host events.

So, I mean, both of you have very entrepreneurial spirits then. It's been really fascinating listening about your journey and seeing your vision for where things are going as well. Before we let you go though, there's about 10 questions we ask everyone.

10? All right, rapid fire time, yeah.

I always say it's rapid fire, and then it ends up taking like 20 minutes, but anyway.

Yeah, let's do it.

So where do you see crypto industry 1 year versus 10 years?

1 year from now, I see just more innovation, more capital. The biggest difference between— so we're obviously— I don't know if I want to call it a bear market, but a little bit of a crypto winter right now. The biggest difference between now and 2017— or excuse me, 2018— is the amount of permanent capital. So when you think back to 2017, the ICOs really just rotated ETH into some like crap token, and then that all sold off because people needed US dollars to pay for things of building a company. Today you have, I think you had $32 billion of venture capital flow into the industry last year alone. And so the biggest difference is just permanent capital. So I expect in the next 12 months, just more building and more innovation and more exciting companies. 10 years from now, crypto will become, by 20, let's say by 20, what is it, 2022 right now, by 2032, Crypto will be pretty close to flipping the stock market in terms of size. Web3 applications will definitely be larger than some of these Web2 applications. And I think we'll be very close to just crypto becoming the largest asset class in the entire world.

If you could change one thing about the industry, what would you change?

Um, I think I would change the fighting between communities. We are so— we have such a hard struggle. I don't think people understand just how tough it's gonna be. When you start breaking things, like breaking, overtaking the stock market, there are a lot of people in power who don't want that to happen, and a lot of the institutional systems are set up so that that works well. When you come at the throats of the New York Stock Exchange and NASDAQ and ultimately other systems, like Twitter and Facebook and things like that, the system doesn't want that to break. And so, yeah, I think that we as an industry need to get better at working together between communities instead of fighting with other communities.

It's a common sentiment I think I hear amongst our guests who are building stuff. For anyone who's building something, that infighting doesn't really help anyone, right? There's no rising tide there.

Yeah. And if you think about why people— people don't actually care about most communities. They care. Why does— why is someone an Avalanche maxi? Well, probably because like 90% of their portfolio is in Avalanche. You know, this is just— this is not like a mission or vision of this one person. You just look at their portfolio.

So it's fair, fair cop. Is there a piece of technology in your life that you can't live without?

Yeah. Is it a cop-out to say my phone? I mean, that's cool. I mean, my AirPods.

We live on our phones these days, but AirPods is good. Okay, what does your weekend look like aside from today being Sunday and you being here with us? What, when you get time off, what are you doing?

Yeah, you dragged me in. I go to the park a lot. I live near a park. I was at the park right before this. I usually, most weekends, I take Saturday off and I work on Sundays. So, and I cook a lot. I cook a lot.

What kind of cuisine? What's your, what's your go-to?

I make a lot of seafood, like clams or mussels or I make a lot of steak. There's a butcher nearby where I live in Brooklyn, so I just got a grill and yeah, I've been making a lot of steak.

So were you tempted by the Miami offer?

I was tempted. I was tempted. We're gonna stay here though. We just got a nice new lease in Manhattan that I'm very excited about. Cool.

Are there any movies that you can watch over and over again and never get tired of?

No.

Not a movie person?

Not a movie person, yeah.

Any books you could read and reread?

Yeah, this is the lamest answer possible. People are like, he doesn't like movies and he's gonna say the lamest response for books, but I can read any good history biography. I just read a good one about Ulysses S. Grant and just read a Lincoln one, I read the Carnegie one, just read one on Rockefeller. I'm on a big 1850s, Gilded Age, Civil War stint right now with reading. Okay, this is probably part of the podcast where people turn it off.

So no one's going to be meeting you at the bar for a drink.

No, definitely not. Definitely not. Between crypto and talking history, no one wants to talk to me.

Are there any catchphrases or mottos that you live by?

I think just that you live to see another day. And man, we've had some really, really crappy days at Blockworks and feeling like all hell is breaking loose and even that maybe Yeah, just some, some really crappy days and even moments, and sometimes that extends out to weeks. But just if you keep fighting, you live to see another day.

Is there anyone we should all follow on Twitter?

Yeah, of course. @JasonYanowitz. Shameless self-plug. Shameless shell. No, I don't know. I think this is probably like most people really like this follow, but Kobe, I think, brings a really well-respected, well-rounded— he's been in crypto since 2013 and he just has a He's an optimist, but also has sometimes a pessimistic or well-rounded take on crypto instead of just being overly hyped on everything.

What was the last thing that surprised you?

We launched NFTs recently instead of— so we have a large conference coming up. It's a 7,000-person conference called Permissionless, May 17th through 19th in Palm Beach. We, instead of launching VIP tickets on like an Eventbrite or Universe or whatever, Ticketmaster, we launched 555 NFTs as our VIP ticket. And the mint price for these VIP tickets, this NFT called Permies, was 1 ETH. So at the time, it was about $3,300. They sold out pretty instantly. And within 48 hours of selling out, the price of the Permies had shot up to 7 ETH. So I think one thing that surprised me— so yeah, what is that? That's like $25,000 for one VIP ticket to our conference. And I think one thing that made me realize is like companies constantly undervalue their products. Companies are constantly scared to ask for as much money as they should get. And I think when you just let things flow into the open market, a lot of companies would be pretty surprised at just what their loyal fans and audience and customers are really willing to pay for their products.

Does that mean next year VIP tickets start at $70K?

$50K, baby. No, we will, um, we're gonna let the market decide. And I think you'll see that more and more with different Blockworks products.

Cool. Who's the next guest we should have on our show?

I would bring on someone to talk about music NFTs. Oh no, is this an institutional finance?

It is, but I mean, that could very quickly become institutional.

I would bring on Justin Blau. I would bring on a DJ, Blau. He, at one point in time, had the record for the largest NFT sale in history. Which was a music NFT sale, I think $11 or $12 or $13 million in early 2021. He is really reshaping what the music industry looks like right now. And if you actually talk to a lot of artists, Spotify and Apple and YouTube, they're just, the music industry isn't set up for many artists to succeed. And the ones that we like, it's like the top 0.0001%, but the rest of musicians get screwed. And I would bring on Blau to talk about And music NFTs.

I would enjoy that conversation. Last question. If you somehow managed to meet Satoshi, but you only got to ask him or her one question, what do you want to know?

How did you dampen your ego so much so that you were comfortable giving up the fame for the rest of your life and almost sacrificing your ego in order to build an industry from scratch?

That's a good question, I like that. All right, Jason, that's it, man. You survived, you made it.

All right, I made it.

You get your cookie now.

I get my cookie, yes. Amazing, my LaCroix and a cookie. Good night.

Thank you very much for coming, man.

Thank you for having me, it's been a joy.

To our listeners, if you haven't already seen Jason's show and tell video, please go to our YouTube page, or you can find it on Twitter @copperhq, or find it on the website copper.co/insights. There you can also sign up for our newsletter, which includes links to all the week's top stories, as well as any updates from the wider team here at Copper. If you've enjoyed listening to the podcast, please make sure to give us a good review on whichever streaming platform you're using. And if you want to get in touch, you can always reach me, Tyler, on Twitter @CryptoTSK, or you can email me directly at tyler.kenyon@copper.co. If you'd like to be a guest on the show, or if you know someone who should be, give us a shout. We're here to talk all things institutional crypto. And of course, this show is only made possible because of the technical and creative wizardry of Charlie Spear, with support from Millie Mountford, Eva Lila, and Cape Light. That's it for today. Stay safe.