Luca Netz on the Pudgy Penguin Airdrop | Roundup

The elephant in the room is a $75,000 pudgy penguin, right? It's too priced out of the average retail buyer to participate. And a whale who actually believes in the message and everything that we're doing for crypto in terms of pushing it forward from a narrative perspective, from a development perspective, can't go put $30 million on our floor because they'll get crushed on the slippage on the way up and they'll get crushed on the slippage on the way down. Everybody wants to be a part of this, everybody wants to align with it, but there's really no vehicle in which they can do it. And Pengu opens the door for everybody who loves the community, for everybody who loves the character and the IP and what we're doing for the space to align themselves and say, hey, we want to support that.

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Excited to be here once again.

Yeah, you sleeping much these days?

Uh, haven't been, but I'm planning to get some good shut-eye here in a couple days. I'm gonna do the 23rd to the 1st break. I think we all need it, just sleep for like 8 days straight.

How, uh, How was it, man? Give us— I mean, let's, let's jump into the good stuff. Like, we just— you're coming off this big airdrop. Wanted to have you on to talk about the airdrop, the whole business, Pengu, Pudgies, the Rod, Lil Pudgies, Abstract, everything. But I mean, give us the, like, behind the scenes of this airdrop. How did it go in your mind?

I'd probably put it like at a 7, 7.5 out of 10. There was a little bit of technical issues on the claim. I think, you know, I don't know how familiar you are, but I think we were responsible for Solana all-time highs in daily transactions. Solana all-time highs in transactions per second. And I think we pushed the limits of some of the RPCs. So that was exciting. Over 20 million hits on the claim website. So it was a claim both for, you know, people on EVM and SVM. So obviously nothing we've ever done before. So a lot of learnings to say the least, but excited that we came out of it relatively unscathed. Obviously a couple hiccups here and there, but No, excited to finally get this show on the road. No, I'm a firm believer in what we've got over here in this community and this IP and this character, which we'll probably get into in a sec. But yeah, you know, I think the hardest, most unfamiliar part for us is done. Now it's just a matter of how can we proliferate the Penguin? How many barriers can we push? How many boundaries can we break and do what we know how to do best, which we've been doing for the last couple of years. So now we're back into a very familiar pocket. Going to probably have to take a rest here into the holidays, but I'm super excited. I mean, the Huddle has grown, you know, by many millions of people, and I think that was really the intent of doing this. And now we just have to do what we do best.

Yeah. Give us, give us the numbers on the airdrop. Like how many, how many people hit the site? How many claims?

Yeah, like 20 million, million people hit the site. I think there's 980,000 claims, almost a million claims that went through. Probably the biggest claim of all time, uh, from an individual perspective. So that's pretty exciting and cool, uh, and, uh, I think today we have 500,000 on-chain holders, assuming the sexes are in the millions. I'd probably assume, just figuring how big those holder bases are and how many users are on those platforms, uh, and that's the metric that I think matters the most to us, you know. Ultimately, I think what we've been able to accomplish over the last couple of years, uh, is pretty impressive, but a lot of that credit goes to the 10,000 holders who are in our corner that have been championing and galvanizing and rallying around this common objective through this vehicle and through them being aligned. And so now I think we've got a unique opportunity to take a couple million people who have that alignment and leverage that superpower of tokenization to do even more amazing and awesome things.

Yeah. Why did you guys position— can you tell us like the backstory of Pengu? Like, why did you guys position it as a meme coin instead of— I think people will remember what ApeCoin did with like positioning it more as a utility thing. Why position it as a, as a meme? Actually, I've got a bunch of questions, but let's start, start with that one.

Yeah, I think from our perspective, there's a, there's a prophecy in play with, with the Pengu and the pudgy penguin one long before my time, if I'm being frank. And there's always been this, you know, if you're familiar with the pudgy penguin story, you know, you'd only know if you were there. But I think a lot of the memetic culture that you see today was really pioneered by that early 2021. You know, Pudgy Penguin run. It was like the first time that like true genuine memetic, you know, permeation kind of happened through a crypto-native vehicle that I thought was super authentic. And it's really core to the roots of Pudgy Penguins. Now, you know, if I'm being honest, you know, I'm not directly referencing it as a meme coin. I'm really calling it just a pengu coin, and I'm leaving it up for everyone's imagination to interpret what they think it is. The reason being is because I think, you know, on one side of the spectrum, the actual technicality and the vehicle and how the coin actually exists is very memetic, right? It's a character coin, you know, big supply to the holders, for the people, by the people. A lot of the technical principles of a meme coin ring true with Pengu. But the interesting part about it and really how we want to develop that specific category is it's really like a meme coin plus plus, right? Because, you know, I'm going to put all these blue penguins in Walmart and Target. You know I'm going to put them on the big screen and on your favorite streaming service. You know we're going to put it in games and all over the world. And I've always imagined this world where it was like, you know, one of the theses when we bought it, I kind of went through this, you know, a little bit of a daze one day, which was, you know, what if Doge had, you know, some operational force behind it, right? And it was doing movies and it was doing TV and it was doing games. I would argue that it would be exponentially bigger than it is today. And the thought process behind that is simple, right? Like, what do these things do? What do products and stores do? What do movies and content and social, what do all of these things do? They do two things. They create demand and they create love and affinity, right? Demand is pretty straightforward. The more people that see the character, the more people that engage with it, the more people that want to align. And love and affinity is really predicated around holding, right? If you have some Pengu or a pudgy penguin and it's in a movie or in your favorite retailer, or you're digesting the content on social, you're more likely to develop an emotional connection between the products. So you're, you're more open to holding it over the course of the long term. And so, you know, our thought process here is like, look, memes, memes today are very stagnant. I would argue that half of them aren't really memes, right? They're just really kind of cloaked under this guise of a memetic coin. And then the other side of it is like some of them are memes, but you know, why, why, why just stop there? Right? That just seems so counterintuitive to just how I think. Maybe I'm alone and on an island here, but, you know, I think this category has huge potential. I'd argue that I think the TAM in terms of like growth from today to where I think it could be 3, 4, or 5 years from now, I think is probably one of the biggest categories in crypto in terms of growth potential. The problem is, is like people, people have just started and stopped with the meme. But, you know, memes are supposed to— memes at their core make you feel good. They make you happy. They make you smile. And there's other ways to take that memetic emotion and to proliferate that and to drive that further, right? You can drive that further via content. You can drive that further via, via products. And so why does a meme start and stop with a singular image and a token? And that's all it becomes, right? I think there's actually a really interesting opportunity here to develop them into something that I'm referencing as a cultural phenomenon. I think the highest upside for these tokens is for them to become cultural phenomenons. And so far we've only seen that twice in crypto. Doge was a cultural phenomenon, and give credit where credit was due, Bored Apes were cultural phenomenons, right? And I think if you look at this cycle and you look at the scoreboard and you look at the, the line items here, there's, there's only one thing that's positioned to be a cultural phenomenon this cycle, and it's us, right? Like, if anything's going to be it, it's either we do it or nobody does it. But nobody has the lore, the history, the time, the energy, the actual memetic distribution. I mean, 50 billion views on socials, millions of toys and millions of homes across the world, right? Nobody has the ingredients that we have that actually can turn it into a cultural phenomenon. Now, to be frank, it's gonna take a Herculean effort from the Pengu holders, from the Pudgy Penguin NFT holders, from the team. It's gonna require a little bit of universal alignment, a little bit of luck. Don't get me wrong. There's a lot of variables that actually make something become a cultural phenomenon. But the ingredients here are so special and nothing here is positioned for that. And probably the last and final point to, I think, where this can become is don't underestimate the universal appeal of the Pengu. I don't think we've ever seen something like this in crypto that speaks to so many different demographics and psychographics. I mean, there isn't a personality profile that doesn't resonate or understand what this is, right? Whether you're a 5-year-old or a 60-year-old, or whether you're in Asia or in America, or a man or a woman, right? Everyone can understand the Pengu, and that's a little bit different than I think the Apes. I always thought one of the handicaps around the Apes was it really like leaned into the bro culture, right? And it was really a thing for the boys to be like, I'm dope, you dope, you're dope, right? This is a little— this is a lot more interesting, I think, in the sense that the potential here, I think, is bigger because of that universal alignment, because of that universal appeal. And we're in a bull market, right? I think a bull market is dominated by the right curve, and I don't think you can find something further on the right curve than pudgy penguins. Everybody understands it. You can go to your grandma, she'll understand it. You can go to your mom and your dad, she'll understand it. You can go to your niece, your nephew, your girlfriend, your significant other, whatever that looks like. They all understand it. It's super easily digestible. People can resonate with it. And it's for those reasons that I think we're perfectly positioned to become a cultural phenomenon. And this was really the final step for, for us to actually go on that sprint and to see if we can realize that potential.

I definitely agree with you. I mean, the counterargument to all that is that memes are pristine and you shouldn't like tamper with it. As soon as you start doing, you know, operate to your point, like trying to do other stuff beyond just the picture, it's sort of like you can look at Fart Coin and people rally behind Fart Coin. It's at a billion. And, you know, you could either look at that and say like, just leave it at that. And that's what means historically been successful. Like Doge hasn't pretended to be anything other than Bitcoin is the ultimate meme, right? Doesn't do anything other than, you know, just, you know, harden like Austrian economics kind of style. You mentioned Bored Apes. I think that's like a pretty interesting comp here because they so far haven't really executed on the ApeCoin and all that. And I hear you on— I actually don't like— they're not aesthetically pleasing. I love your penguins.

They are—

the TAM is bigger, you could argue. But how do you think about like walk us into the— maybe the, the decision to launch the coin, to kind of take on this Herculean effort. There is some downside. There is, you know, you probably were looking at ApeCoin and saying, gosh, you know, that definitely didn't work for them. Like, what was the— like, did you ever doubt or, you know, want to do this? Or walk us through kind of the decision-making process to go ahead with it.

Yeah, I kind of want to address your rebuttal and then I'll answer that. I think you know, from my perspective, you know, I totally agree. But just because something is, you know, what it is doesn't mean, you know, it can't be something more and something— it doesn't mean it can't evolve. I mean, human nature is predicated around evolution, right? And you have something that, you know, like the one thing that I catch the crypto industry is like in this perpetual psyop because something was doesn't mean it can't be something more. And I think from my perspective, just logically running the reason behind it, is the greatest things in civilization that we've seen over the last, you know, 1,000 years or 2,000 years has been predicated around execution and pushing the boundary and breaking the barrier, right? It just goes there. And I think that it would be a disservice for crypto and specifically this category if somebody didn't try to push that barrier and break that boundary. You know, at a certain point, you know, you look at it through one lens, which, you know, I totally agree with you, Santi. Like, that is a lens in which a majority of people look at it. I always like to take the contrarian approach. And so far I've been right, right? Like, I've been, I've been keeping this attitude, the same energy for the last couple of years. I've been running the same thought process and the same logical reasoning. And it's the same thought process that's gotten us up until this point. And I think it's the same thought process that's going to get us further. Right. So, you know, I do agree that like, hey, today, you know, memes are not sentient, they're stagnant. And that is, you know, part of the beauty. But I actually think there's a more beautiful story to be told. One that I think galvanizes more people and does more for the net positive and the net good of crypto. And I think this is the lane that I'm willing to experiment in and see if we can actually get there. In terms of like the decision-making, it ultimately came down to a point. There's a couple of variables. One, you know, we were the bear market, we were the bear market heroes, right? And there's a playbook to be that. The interesting part of the last couple of months is I felt like a fish out of water. And I think in a bear market, you know, overthinking and being conservative is the right approach. In a bull market, your job as a founder, specifically in my business, right? I'm in the entertainment business, really, right? I'm in the NFT, PFP proliferation, cultural phenomenon, world domination business. And you're either going to get there or you're not, right? There's, there's no different. It's one side of the pendulum or the other, in my opinion, right? And so for me, I was optimizing for maximum excitement and maximum alignment. right? Like, could we have done this a certain way, right? Like, we— the launch here was completely unorthodox to, I think, anything you've seen in this category, in the sense that, you know, we're a 70% liquid float today, right? We could have easily been a 25% liquid float, and the price could be higher, right? I know that. But, you know, the beautiful part is I have 500,000 on-chain holders and millions of other holders on Sexys. And a part of that movement, a part of that cultural force is really predicated on how many people are aligned. So maybe for the short term, you know, it's not, you know, maybe for the next couple of weeks, you know, while the non-believers, you know, leave the ecosystem and take the opportunity that we gave them and, you know, move on to the next, you know, that's their prerogative. But ultimately, I think as those people get out and the believers start to set in, I think it's the perfect, perfect recipe for success. I look at the memes on the scoreboard, and right now Pudgy Penguins is the 7th or 8th biggest meme in the world. But I look at our views, I look at our community, I look at our base and all of the things that we have. And I think to myself, there's not 3 better memetic characters than this. There's not 3 more popular, beloved crypto-native characters in crypto than Pudgy Penguins' Pengu. It's impossible to refute. The data supports that, right? We're clocking in 200, 300 million views every single day on social, right? Proliferating and embodying a message that I think is the best of crypto. There is an underdog story here. I think the greatest underdog story that crypto's ever seen. Literally a penguin rising from the ashes against all odds, right? When you look at the entrepreneurship story, dollars in the bank, I don't think there's a crypto company that has created more value to the ecosystem per cash in the bank, meaning we've only raised $9 million. We put $500,000 of our own money into this. We've created $4 or $5 billion in value for the ecosystem and the entire crypto ecosystem as a whole, right? When I just look at our performance next to the bunch, I just refuse to believe that when this cycle's all said and done, that a Shiba Inu is going to have more weight and more pull than a pudgy penguins and Pengu. I just can't believe that because the data and the metrics, I think, support it. And so, you know, why did we do this? You know, I think it ultimately comes down to the ultimate handicap that I think NFTs exist. Just so you know, I think I'm one of the bigger NFT bulls out there. I think NFTs have a slew of pros that these type of tokens don't. And I think these type of tokens have a slew of pros that NFTs don't. I think the most prominent pro that one— that these type of tokens have is ultimately the barrier to entry. The elephant in the room is a $75,000 pudgy penguin, right? It's too priced out of the average retail buyer to participate. And a whale who actually believes in the message and everything that we're doing for crypto in terms of pushing it forward from a narrative perspective, from a development perspective, can't go put $30 million on our floor because they'll get crushed on the slippage on the way up and they'll get crushed on the slippage on the way down. Right. And so naturally, everybody loves Pudgy Penguins. Everybody supported us. You know, we go make an animation on Instagram, we'll get 50 million views, 100 million views. We'll go do Kind Pengu on TikTok and we'll clock, you know, 500 million views in 10 videos. Everybody wants to be a part of this, everybody wants to align with it, but there's really no vehicle in which they can do it. And Pengu opens the door for everybody who loves the community, for everybody who loves the character and the IP and what we're doing for the space to align themselves and say, hey, we want to support that, we want to be a part of that. And now I can put a dollar into it, I can put $100,000 into it, I can put $50 million into it. And I ultimately came to an inflection point a couple months ago is like, how much more can we do, you know, in this lane without getting like the respect and the momentum that we deserve? You know, ultimately at one point, you know, we were down 5% when we announced Walmart, right? Like that wouldn't happen necessarily if you were a token, right? Like it would just be priced differently. And so, you know, I have to give my community that opportunity to actually realize the upside that not only the team is creating, but ultimately that they're creating every single day when they're going and buying products and sharing the content. Et cetera. So I think when you add up all those pieces, this has to be the next step. And my last point, Santi, is if you look at the data for the last 12 months, the data for the last 12 months tells you something really interesting. It tells you that if you're an NFT PFP outside of CryptoPunks, you are not going to be able to outperform, you know, these token NFT combinations. Because naturally, what are memes in the business of doing above all else? They're in the business of proliferating, proliferating the meme, right? We have 10,000, 15,000 people every day wearing profile pictures that are proliferating the penguin. Every day, you know, we have GIFs and content that are getting hundreds of millions of views. And ultimately, there'll be an inflection point and there'll be a convergence where everyone will just accept this reality. And I think that inflection point and that acceptance will ultimately lead Pengu to, I think, being a top 3 in its category. Pretty easily, pretty quickly.

What do you think about the, uh, like, what's a simple skinny on the value accrual for the token? Like, is this— like, I appreciate you did a round, like an equity raise for, you know, the entity, the developing co behind all of this. Is it safe to say that, like, you know, the value accrual, as I think about, like, this could be the next Disney Studios, Pixar, in a grandiose vision, like, is that represented in the token? Or how do you like How do you articulate that value accrual to people?

Yeah, I think you, you have to believe that pudgy penguins is going to be the face of crypto and the mascot of crypto. And it has ingredients that none of these other memetic coins have, with maybe the exception of Doge. And so what makes Shiba Inu valuable? What makes Doge with Hat valuable? What makes all of these other ones valuable? I think is going to make the same thing that is going to make Pengu valuable, except again, there's a plus plus to it, right? And there's variables here in the equation that I think none of those other things have that I think ultimately are going to create more demand, more love and affinity, and put us in a position that I think very few of these other tokens are going to be able to be in.

Luca, what— how do you think about the trade-off between dilution and opening up more access?

Right.

Because you had Pudgies, then you had Lil Pudgies, and you had Pudgy Rods. Now you've got Pengu. So how do you think about that? Obviously, I mean, we saw with our Permy collection, it was like we were really excited about it.

There's—

but there was, you know, there's only so many you can actually have, right? So then you need to keep opening up access, but then that dilutes the original people. So how do you think about that trade-off?

Yeah, I actually think it's the complete opposite in this case. I think issuing more of the same is dilution, right? And so since I've been a part of Pudgy, we've issued no new NFTs. We have no plan to issue no new NFTs. right? But I would argue that, you know, a million Pengu holders is going to create more demand for the NFT than not having a million Pengu holders, because a PFP NFT at its core is a form of tribalism to signify that you are part of the community. And second, and probably more importantly, it's a Veblen good and it's a status symbol. What's a status symbol for people who don't recognize that it's a status symbol? A status symbol is only as relevant as people recognizing it as such. And Pengu holders who buy the token recognize that people with the PFP are of huge status within this community, right? So it's a really simple formula to me, in my opinion, which is, you know, more holders creates more demand for the first edition, for the ultimate status symbol. And it's really impossible to convince me otherwise. And again, right, we, we have 2021-22 PTSD because we believe, you know, what happened then But what happened then is not what's happening now, right? There's a new formula, there's a new framing, there's a new positioning. And everything at the end of the day comes down to framing, positioning, and narrative. And the narrative here is Pudgy Penguins is the face of crypto. It's the mascot of crypto. It's doing something for the industry that nobody else is doing. It's universal, it's inclusive, everybody loves it. And if anything is going to represent the crypto industry from a character and mascot perspective, I would be remiss if you thought that there was a better IP and a better character than Pudgy Penguins, Pengu. It just is, right? All the pieces together. So that's how I kind of look at it. Uh, ultimately, I really want people to kind of envision it from, you know, I want, I want people to, to have their imagination run wild in terms of what they think this could be, uh, and what the potential is for it. And obviously, you know, we're going to do what we're going to continue to do, right? We're going to continue to put this thing in places that crypto-native IP has never been. We're going to continue to make headlines. We're going to continue to make, you know, break barriers and push boundaries. We're going to continue to have the most affluent and I think one of the most important communities in crypto. I think you'd be hard-pressed to say that there's 3 communities more powerful and more important than the Pudgy Penguin community today. And I think if you just line all those things up, I feel like Michael Saylor talking, but it just seems pretty obvious. So we'll see. But, you know, obviously, you know, history or the future has yet to be written and it's up to us to write it.

Yeah. Let's talk about Solana for a second. You guys are building— I've heard you talk about why you're building Abstract, and I think Abstract came via an acquisition where you were looking at other L2s and you said, look, zkSync's got, you know, account abstraction and Base has low fees, but nobody's really built the consumer chain. So you guys acquired Abstract, you're building this L2, but you guys didn't decide to launch on Abstract because obviously it's not live yet. I think that goes live in January. I'm pretty sure I heard. Why did you guys choose to launch on Solana in December when you could have just launched on Abstract in January and done a massive user acquisition thing for the chain?

Yeah, that was the plan, right? And that was always the intent, I think, for the last couple of months. Now, the plan didn't really go into execution until November 7th, and then the elephant—

Wait, so you guys decided to do Pengu November 7th? Obviously you were thinking about this before, but November 7th was like, we are doing it?

Yeah, the whole sprint was November 7th. So it was a 5-week sprint, a Herculean sprint, to say the least. So shout out to all the partners and all the people involved. But, you know, the consensus was it was timing, and I just was giving myself reasons to overthink it, right? And I think from our perspective, if you look at it today, Solana is the consumer chain for crypto. It's almost impossible to refute, no matter if you're an Ethereum maxi, you know, a majority of the retail volume today is on Solana. And to be frank, I needed to speak to that community in a way that I think I haven't been able to speak up until this point. And it just makes a ton of sense. I think for us, you know, Pudgy Penguins doesn't want to be the face of Ethereum. We want to be the face of crypto, right? And so we're chain agnostic. And I actually think this is one of the most beautiful unification moments I've ever seen in crypto, right? Have we ever really seen something where everyone was so unified around one common goal? And sure, there was a couple ETH maxis that were upset. But if I'm being honest, you know, I think this is ultimately a net positive for not only Ethereum, but more importantly, Abstract, because the truth of the matter is, is you have this ecosystem that's now winning on Ethereum and now winning on Solana, or has been winning on Ethereum and is now winning on Solana. And it's all going to converge on an Ethereum L2, right? And so don't overthink it. Timing is important in crypto. We all know it. right? It's all about catching the wind. I hate that Jerome was hawkish. Jesus. But, you know, other than that, right, I think the timing is impeccable. And ultimately, I think it's going to play into our hand. And naturally, right, you know, Pudgy Penguins is not Abstract for a reason, right? It's not Pudgy Chain. If we're going to call it Pudgy Chain, we're going to call it Pudgy Chain. But ultimately, Abstract's going to win because we have an org that is exemplifying operational excellence, because we have a thesis that I think is unparalleled. And we have a strategy to get builders and to get the ecosystem PMF in a way that I think no other chain does. And the beauty is, is there will be a bridge from Pengu to Abstract, and Pengu will live on Abstract, and there will be a slew of benefits for Pengu on Abstract, right? And so, you know, a lot of people, you know, wanted me to wait, and obviously there was a lot of uncomfortable conversations that had to be had. And I just knew in my gut that the best thing for Abstract is to put a huge win under the Pudgy Penguins ecosystem right before that launch to really galvanize the community. I'm being honest with you and it's not something I really wanted to talk about, but the truth of the matter is, is I know our ecosystem better than anybody else. My finger's on the pulse. I lick my finger, I put it to the wind. I know exactly what's going down. Our ecosystem was boring. It was slow. Nobody was interested. Nobody was participating. You guys were stoked. The sophisticated investors were still stoked. They saw the vision. But our active participants, they all went to Solana. Dude, I can't tell you how many Pudgy Penguin holders have crushed it over in that ecosystem. I mean, I know guys and gals who have made tens of millions of dollars, you know, literally changing their life going on Solana. And so it's my job as a founder to meet my, my community and my hopefully my future community where they are. right? There's no reason to go and to try to go against the tide, right? In a bull market, you ride waves. This is really important. I actually took this advice from the Yuga founders. They put it in, in, in— they had said it in an interview years back. And I think there's a line between this, and I am very conscious of this line. So it's important. But they said the best thing they ever did was catch trends and be top of mind on everything, right? So now where you're thinking memes and you check the scoreboard, I don't know how you can say there's 3 better, more prolific, more important memes in crypto today than Pengu. When you're looking at NFTs, I could say the same. When you're looking at Abstract, I will say the same, right? And it's important that when we do things, I believe that we can win. So I don't want to just be an opportunist, right? There's a lot of room. We could have done Ordinals, we could have done a bunch of things, but, you know, being an opportunist to create long-term liabilities in which I don't think we can actually win is not the business that I'm in, right? I'm in the business of actually winning. In places that I know we can win. And so Pudgy Penguins, right? I think it is this cycle's Bored Ape. I think we are positioned to be that. If anyone is going to be that, it's us. I think when you look at Pengu, you know, we are this cycle's, you know, this cycle's Shiba Inu, or in my opinion, ApeCoin or Doge. Like we are positioned to be that cultural phenomenon in a way that nobody else is. You know, when we look at Abstract, you know, Abstract's gonna take a little more elbow grease right? Because I think those guys at BASE are putting on an absolute clinic. And that is the only one on my sights in terms of, you know, people that are going to be tough to compete with. And to be frank, you know, that's going to come down to the wire. That's going to come down to the final minutes of Game 7. But again, I believe in our ability. I think we've assembled one of the best teams in crypto. I don't think there's 5 teams better than us. I think if you look at the entire igloo, we just know what we're doing. And now we just got to put the work in.

You think it's going to be abstract? Fast forward 2 years from now, it's Abstract versus Base for the best L2s.

Totally.

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So, so you decided to deploy on Solana, and I, I appreciate there's some connectivity. Why not launch your like entire L1?

Why not? Why not us launch an L1? I think for us, you know, we're in the business.

If you truly believe you have, you are this like dominant force, you've captured the mindshare and the zeitgeist, there's no one out there that has like penetrated the Walmarts of the world. Like you're in Walmart. There's no other company in crypto that's in Walmart. Like why not own that stack and make it like you own your own destiny? Now, it could be like an Avalanche L1, could be your own L1. I'm just kind of curious.

It just comes down to the build. I think it's something we've discussed about. And it's like, look, like ultimately we believe, you know, I'll tell you the answer, the honest answer. The honest answer is I'm not going to sell you as, you know, I think it'd be a disservice to put our talents and our efforts to build tech, right? ZKSync built the best tech. The Elastic Chain, I think, is the best technological L2 stack. Let Alex and the ZK crew make the best tech, right? I'm not a tech— I'm not a techno— a technologist. I'm not a tech innovator. I'm a— I'm a world-class marketer with a world-class community, with a world-class creative team. That knows how to get PMF and speak to the real world in a way that I think very few people can. I am not an engineer. We have some amazing engineers, right? But I want their focus to be on UX/UI and features that I think make sense, right, in terms of abstracting the blockchain layer and making that experience the best experience possible rather than foundationally, right? Like, I'm not in the business of just trying to maximize maximum value accrual. Right? Like, I could be, and maybe, maybe we will evolve into that. But I think in the interim, I'm in the business of winning and telling a story and doing something for crypto that I think very few people can, right? Very few people in crypto, I think, have the branding and marketing and creative chops that I think we have. And we need to play our role in pushing the space forward by owning that vertical, right? Like, us going— and I'd be pretty bearish if you saw me in the next 6 months going and trying to build the next great innovative L1. right? And it's less about owning the stack and really what's doing what's in the best interest of the community. And I think an L2 is in the best interest of the community.

Luca, I mean, on this point, the reason I'm asking is I'm going through this iteration myself. Like, I hear you. I'm sort of allergic to building like all this. There's fantastic teams that have built good stuff. You could license it or you could build something like, candidly, like an L1 like Avalanche 9000, right? It's just they made it like the vision of Cosmos, but like actually there, you know, the reason I bring it up is like Off the Grid, like Godzilla. I think about like also like something that's cracked into the mainstream. They've clearly decided to deploy as an Avalanche L1 and people should go listen to that, that episode. And he kind of walks through that framework, which I thought was for me eye-opening as well. But I'm curious, like, yeah, you never want to build from scratch like a monad. Beara seems like a Herculean effort. Where you are your own consumer, you rather focus your effort on that. But like an L1 like Avalanche, why not that?

Yeah, I think, I think maybe it just comes down to the stacks. Like we didn't explore it maybe the way that we should have. Right. But ultimately, like, look, ZKSync does all the things that I needed to do. They're ahead of the curve by a Texas mile on account abstraction. They have low fees, fast transactions. And I just believe in that tech stack as being the tech stack to power you know, these type of interfaces and these type of, you know, chains that we want to build. And, and maybe we, you know, to be frank, maybe we didn't explore it hard enough. I know Saigar specifically, who's leading the charge there, is a big Ethereum maxi. I know he wanted to stay Ethereum aligned, you know, naturally, you know, that's the team that we acquired. I don't know if they have that much familiarity in the Cosmos SDK or the Avalanche L1. And so, you know, I'm not just trying to go and do something just to go and do it. And to go tap into an L1 narrative because naturally those are priced higher or there might be more value accrual. Like, ultimately, like, Ethereum got us this far, you know, we pay homage to Ethereum, you know, us launching Pengu on Solana is not a shot on Ethereum. Ethereum is trying to accomplish something that I think no other chain is trying to accomplish. And we feel comfortable, you know, building on the Elastic Chain, on the ZK stack. And ultimately, you know, it solves, I think, some of the biggest hurdles for us in terms of our end thesis from a technological perspective, which is, the best account abstraction and the best experience for us to kind of power. You know, maybe that changes, but I don't think so. I think we're pretty comfortable where we are. It's important that I recognize what we're good at and what we're bad at. I know what we're good at, and I'm going to leave the things that we're bad at to the people that are good at those things. And so it's important I stay in my lane and don't get too— my head doesn't get too big and I don't start discombobulating and going into territories that I don't think we're fully ready for. So maybe there's a change, but I don't foresee it. I don't foreshadow it. The ZK experience has been nothing short of amazing up until this point, and I plan on staying there for as long as I can see into the future.

Luca, give us some alpha on the Abstract airdrop and just how you think about this.

Yeah, I think it's— I think it starts in— you're going to see something. I think it's a lot. I, I, that's, that's the universe telling me to not, not say too much. I, you're gonna see a reinvention of it. So naturally, like, because we launched on Solana, it had to be a claim, right? So, right, you know, but, but because we're on EVM, there's going to be— and, and Pengu will be on EVM, and, you know, Pudgy Penguin NFTs are on EVM. It's going to make this process a lot less stressful, right? Uh, it's going to be nothing but a couple clicks of a button, and so I'm excited for that.

Um, I think, I think the biggest thing people want to know is, is this going to Pengu holders or to Pudgy holders or to both?

I'm in the business of rewarding the people who support me, right? This is really important though. This is, this is really important for all the founders out there. Yeah, you lose the support of the people who support you, you've lost, right? I'm in the business of taking care of the people who support me above all else, right? You support me, I I will support you, and, and it starts and stops there. Now, there's going to be some interesting levers that we're going to pull, some things that I think are going to change how people look at airdrops moving forward, but I'm going to leave that to be a surprise. But long story short, you know, I'm in the business of supporting people who support me, and that's whether you're a Pengu holder, a Pudgy Penguin holder, or an Abstract community member. You know, you support me, I'll support you, and hopefully the, you know, what we did on Tuesday was indicative of that.

Yeah, the, you were saying price is a lagging indicator. So if you look at the price of Pudgies, it's been kind of crazy. So a year ago, right, the last time you came on the show was summer of summer last year. Pudgies were around 4 ETH. Actually, last time you came on the show was when you bolded me up on Pudgies. Then there was obviously it ran up like crazy. So here I can pull up the monthly chart. It ran up to 30 What is that, 35 ETH? And then the claim happened, fell down to 15 ETH. Now we're back to 17. You said price is a lagging indicator, but you have the insights as the founder. So what is the fair price of Penguins right now?

You know, I can't speak on that. You know, ultimately, at the end of the day, this is, you know, until this cycle is over, this will remain true. Everyone who's faded us has coped. Right? And that's it, right? Like, you, you will, you will buy at the price that you deserve and that you'd like. And, and, and if you don't believe, you don't believe. But ultimately, I think the, I think the data and the line items behind the data support that, you know, there isn't 5 teams to bet on that I think are, are, are more in, you know, that, that, that are a better place than us. I just don't think that. I, I just, I, I, you can't convince me otherwise. I think we've earned the right to say that. And, you know, ultimately, at the end of the day, I made a promise to my community. I'm going to fulfill that promise. I'm not going to tell you what that promise is here, but the community members who've been around for a long time know what that promise is. And we're just getting started, right? Like, this is, this is the beginning of the beginning for us, right? And we are now in a position where we have a ton of leverage. We have a ton of goodwill. We have a ton of trust and credibility, right? The narrative is never fade the igloo. We— it's been the narrative now for a couple of years. I think it's even more prominent today. And though you saw a drop in floor price, if you look at what they got, it's pretty much a wash. It's pretty much at 30 ETH, 28 ETH today when you look at current prices and what we gave each pudgy. And ultimately, I'm fulfilling my promise. I told them I'd take care of them. I'm going to continue to take care of them. And as long as you're in this ecosystem, I look at you like a family member and I take care of my family. So it just starts and stops there. And if you think that the best of us is done, you have another thing coming. I think we're going to do in the next 6 months more than we've done in the last 3 years. And we're going to put on a clinic that I think is going to be worthy of an HBO series when it's all said and done.

Let's go.

All right.

Let's get away from price and the airdrop for a second, Luca. The thing I think people don't understand as much about you and that I've gotten a fun view just having gotten to know you over the years is I think you are one of the best dealmakers in the industry. Walmart, are you guys in Target too? I'm pretty sure I heard you on a podcast with Kevin back in June or July talking about one of the biggest deals you've ever worked on. You know, the acquisition of the L2, right? Abstract. I don't think people understand you are a very good dealmaker. What is your approach to dealmaking?

Hmm, that's a great question. One that I've never gotten before. You know, start with a low anchor. You know, first things first.

But I actually am genuinely asking because I know there's the negotiating at the final line, but there's like getting into Walmart, I assume, is not a you email the, you know, head of BD at Walmart. I assume there's a lot of negotiating, there's networking to get in. I assume it's a 12-month deal minimum. Like, what do some of these deals actually look like?

It's hustle and belief, right? So what you see on this podcast, a lot of people are like, yo, you like, do you just do that? And I'm like, no, no, I genuinely believe to my core. So, you know, what you see is what you get. It's actually to the point where if I don't believe, I'll actually hermit in, right? And like, you won't see me for like a couple of weeks. right? And like, I won't be active. Like, I can sway on the pendulum, but, you know, majority of the time I have unequivocal belief, right? And so, you know, there's been— I'm not going to lie and say there's not been moments where the belief has been tested, right? But I really just believe in this. I just— it's just really hard for me when I just look at the lot and I just compare what we have versus the next person, whether it's NFTs or tokens or whatever. I just have unequivocal belief in this. I have unequivocal belief in the brand. I have unequivocal belief in the IP and the community. And I think for us, it's like, look, if I believe, then I just have to match it with hustle, right? And at the end of the day, like, closed mouths don't get fed. I'm only going to succeed by the sweat of my brow and by the hours that I put in. And I'm young, I'm hungry, and I want to win and I want to succeed. And I'm competitive, dude. That's really what it comes down to. I should have been an athlete if I wasn't doing this, because all I love above all else is winning. I don't really care that much about the money. I changed my life when I was 18 years old. Thank God. Right? Like, I really— like, Pudgy Penguins for me was like this transition from like internet hustler opportunist to like, hey, like, go build something great because you're more than that. You're more than a moneymaker, right? You are somebody that can go change the world. You're somebody that can make an impact. And one of the most beautiful things that has transpired outside of Pudgy is actually the public good that it's become for people. right? If you follow Kind Pengu on TikTok, I mean, 500 million views on 10 videos, all predicated around changing people's lives. When you look at some of the comments on the Instagram posts, people are literally just like— I've seen comments as crazy as like, you've prevented me from killing myself. Like, how cool is that? To go and push something, to go be a part of something that is, you know, doing good for the world. Whether you're a Pengu holder or a Pudgy Penguin NFT holder, I want you to feel good about that. You are supporting that impact and that mission. And so I think from our perspective, it's about something bigger, you know, if we can accomplish it. Yeah.

Luca, a lot of it is obviously you've been incredibly successful. Walk us through what are those moments where you've doubted yourself? Take us into that cave.

Yeah, dude, I mean, like, I won't give you guys the sob story, but if we want to run through like the trials and tribulations, I mean, let's just look at it.

Right. So, you know, people might say, hey, listen, he has a billion-dollar NFT collection, he's launched a $2 billion, you know, protocol, he's cruising. But I don't think that's the case.

No, it's not the case because, dude, I mean, I got sick to my stomach. How is a WIF worth more than a Pengu? It just doesn't make any sense. How's a Shiba Inu? And I love them. Like, I'm not saying anything. Like, I just believe in myself and what we've built so much. So I'm— this is not a victory lap. We have to go so much harder. Oh, dude, we have to go so much harder because until I win, I need to be able to say I told you so. And I haven't gotten there yet. Now, I've gotten a little bit there. But, you know, back to the point of the struggle, you know, and I told you so, you know, this was a rough journey. I mean, we bought this for $2.5 million. We put $500 grand into the account. The whole C-suite didn't get paid more than $1,000 a month, really, for legal reasons, right? For the first 12 months. 2 days after we bought it, we started a downtrend into one of the worst bear markets and black swan events we've ever seen. A month after we bought it, royalties went to zero, right? So any cash flow projections on the purchase went to zero, right? We literally had to jump right into building the real business, which I'm super stoked that it happened again. Super grateful in hindsight, 20/20. I had business partners screw me. There was, you know, there's four horsemen in terms of like the co-founders of Pudgy. There was 5 or 6, right? I got really— I'm not going to talk about that story, but I got hammered by dudes who were my best friends, literally backstabbed in the back the worst way possible. Right. We took every bad beat, every— as we were in Walmart, as we were in whatever, you know, they, they, they, you know, like nobody even cared. Right. We were down 5% on Walmart. Right. There was moments where we were just so down bad. They tried to cancel me and frame me 5 different ways off of like, just— we can get into that in a sec. You know, I know you probably want to because you sent me that message. You know, like, they threw every punch. And the hardest part is I raised— I went to 300 venture investors, and all of them told me no, right? At the same time, they were funding things left and right in the same category, in the same industry that we were. And I literally, for people who know, I cold LinkedIn. I don't have a venture, and I've never raised money before. All the money I've made is I've made and I've seeded everything that I've done up until this point, right? So, and so I've never had to go and ask for external capital, but it was needed because people were checking out, right? After like the 11th month of working for free, people were like, so what are we doing this for, right? It wasn't really clicking. And so I had to go raise, and I literally sat there and I pitched every VC under the sun, from Web2 VCs to Web3 VCs. Pretty much all of them told me no. The only two real venture investors that are in on this are 1KX and BigBrain. right? And then there's some other venture investors that, but they put a couple hundred grand. Most of our cap table is angels, right? And so, it's just like, it's hard. It's hard to believe in something and put millions of dollars on the line. It's hard for the market to literally turn royalties, your revenue stream that you forecasted and projected on the purchase, literally go to nothing, right? To have your back against the wall, to have partners backstab you, to have every venture investor just look at your resume and look at what you've done up until that point and say you're not good enough while funding people that I think are half the entrepreneurs I am with 10 times the money that I asked for. Right. And then to then go and do amazing things like Walmart and to get, you know, other communities be like, yeah, that's, that's cute. That's cute. Right. But, you know, that's not as important as what we've got going on. Right. And to just be perpetually faded by every NFT community up until probably recently. You know, it hasn't been easy. But, you know, again, this is crypto's greatest underdog story. It is crypto's greatest CTO community takeover. It is the little guy. It is for the people, by the people, against all odds. And we are not done. The little guy just didn't come this far to come this far. The little guy is going to keep going and it's going to make history in a way that I think nobody's ever seen before.

Goddamn, this could be a man of the arena speech. I'm going to go 10x lever long. No, none of this is financial legal advice. Advice. But nonetheless, um, yeah, I do think the best founders have like this near-trauma death experience, uh, either at a very personal level, company level. It sounds like you did too. Um, well, you said something that I find to be true, like you find that certain teams and projects just get like most of the attention and funding, and it— and the— and there are fantastic teams just don't. What is that, a you problem? Is that a market problem? Is that a like What is it?

I'm shocked because like I told, I told the rest of the public I must suck at raising. Like I, I must have like the worst pitch ever, which is like, fine. Like, I'm not like, I don't know. I don't know what it is. I don't know what it is. I think, I think in hindsight I was pretty pragmatic, right? Like I'm a realist. I don't like to sell you on a— like I can only sell you on what I believe, right? So when I was raising those early rounds, you know, maybe my belief wasn't, you know, $100 billion consumer conglomerate, which I think you know, which I think Igloo can become now. I think we're positioned to be crypto's first ever consumer conglomerate, right? So like, I was pragmatic, I was a realist, and I think that doesn't serve you well when raising venture, right? But I love to live in my reality, right? I think is probably one.

I like to, like, I like to be like, I like to have this grandiose vision, but like, you don't ever want to, like, you always like want to be a realist when you talk. You don't want to be laughed out of the room, but sometimes VCs want to see like And I've gone through this process with a new thing that I'm doing now. It's like there's one slide that I was like, fuck it, I'm just going to say it. This can be the best, the largest economy, period.

It's like this grand idea.

Like, do I believe it? Like, part of it is just putting it on paper. It's like, well, fuck yeah, I believe it. Can you be the next Pixar? Like, I guess like a VC, like, did you ever tell a VC what you're raising? Like, I want to be the next Pixar or Disney.

I told them, I was like, this is, this is what Disney is going to look like in 2050 and I'm doing it in 2024. I said that verbatim. Right.

You did like anchor high. Like it sounds like, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I didn't do that until the later pitches when checks started actually getting cut. So there was an adjustment. I mean, I mean, I mean, I'm not going to say like to some of those venture investors that passed, I'm not going to say that I didn't spend 30 minutes of the pitch talking about my life story. Right. Like I didn't know how to pitch. So, you know, I just tried. I just tried to make people believe in me. I think my life story was important because it's a story of perseverance. Right? Like, I, I've been through it all. I've been through hell. My stress tolerance is through the roof, right? Like, there's nothing that can batter me down. I'm gonna make it through, and as long as I don't give up, I will win. Do I win in the next 3 months? Do I win in the next 6 months? The beauty of Pengu is it's out there, and so I know I'm not going anywhere. I know I'm showing up 14, 15, 16 hours a day, and as long as I do that, it's not if, it's when. I told the community this years ago. I said, it's not if, it's when. Believe. The same thing is going to transpire here. It is not if, it's when. As long as I show up, as long as the community remains unified, as long as I continue to deliver, as long as I don't decide to take from them and do something egregious and greedy, right, which I will never do. I will always put their best interests above anyone else's. I will win and we will succeed. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. So, you know, I don't know. I'm not a great pitcher. I know now I have everyone and every fund and their mom trying to send me a term sheet. I'm like, look, if it's not north of a billion dollars, don't even waste your time. I won't even look at it. Right. So maybe things are different now, but, you know, it was hard and great. We got Luca.

We got these things all over our office, by the way. We got like 30 of these. These were genius. Santi, you don't— you don't see this.

He never shares any of this. I still don't know.

Every like 4 months, every 4 months, Luca's just airdropping actual merch Pudgy's merch to Blockworks. Like, just infiltrating. I can only imagine how many companies you're doing that with, Luke.

Every— Santi, I want to send you a care package. I know you're, you know, you're—

I'll go to Miami and pick it up. Let's put it that way.

Yeah, there you go.

Here's the— you're putting around community. A lot of times when I interact, you know that time where a lot of artists were thinking about launching their own NFT collection and whatnot? It opens up a vector where if price goes up, it's all gravy. Like, it is very— synergistic, like, you know, it can really work. But there's also that downside, like, you know, market's down right now, you know, Pengu's down 25% right now, you know, people still— the early holders are made out exceptionally well, to your point. Um, what happens if this thing— like, in crypto, things can go down 80, 90%, you know, that's just the nature of the beast. Um, do you care about that? Is that something that you think about, or Or you said, listen, we lived through this once where the collection was, you know, there's a hardened community, there's new community members that are now buying Pengu that don't have the NFT. And how do you, how do you just think about that and managing that as the leader of this community and movement?

Yeah, I, you know, the elephant in the room is like, I think this like whole founder notion of not caring about it is like such a fool's, it's a, it's a, it's a fool's path, right? You got to care about it. You got to understand too that there's, there's few things that you can control, right? Like, I can't control a $2 billion asset. I can show up, I can deliver, I can continue to execute, I can continue to do everything that we're doing bigger and better. And that has worked, and it will continue to work. And so whether it goes up 100% or down 90%, you know, regardless, the, the facts remain true, is I know how this industry works now. This industry rewards success, it rewards hard work, It rewards people delivering for their community members. And if it goes up and it goes down in the short term, I'm not worried. As long as Shiba Inu is at $15 billion, Pengu is underpriced to me. It just is. Because if you look at the data and you look at the metrics, funds and everyone's going to catch on. It's a very simple thing to understand. Everyone loves the penguin. Women, men, everyone. You know, the point of the matter is, is like when it, when it comes down to the story and the lore, you just can't tell me that a Shiba Inu is more important to crypto than Pudgy Penguins, Pengu. And if it— and I'm not going anywhere. I'm just going to deliver. I'm going to execute. To your point, Santi, I really hate that Jerome was hawkish because, you know, I hate it.

No, but look, you can't control that, right? But this might be a great entry point. Like, look, I didn't have any Pudgies. I'm an idiot. You know, I should have bought when you came on the pod before. And I know I actually did. And so Um, but you know, I'm a big believer that, you know, look, if you look farther out than 6 months and a year, you can see incredible entry points. And if you look deep down, and there are— I will say it, I've been on the record as saying I think there are a handful of serious builders in crypto. Crypto's just been an industry that's grown so much by virtue of Bitcoin and, you know, the interest.

But it's—

this went from 100, you know, $5 billion industry to $2.5 trillion, the market is just rewarded. You know, the margin of, of like the quality of teams hasn't had to be like 9, 10 out of 10. But I do think that that changes. If you really want to win 5, 10 years out, you want to survive, you need to be best fucking in class, not in crypto, like full stop. And if you do that well, there's a path to becoming over a $100 billion company at trillion-dollar company. If you don't believe it, like, there will be projects in crypto that are going to be bigger than Bitcoin. I believe it. That's why I'm here. Bitcoin's the least interesting thing about this industry. Can you build the next Nvidia? The next— there are trillion-dollar companies. There will be multiple trillion-dollar companies in crypto.

I agree.

There's no reason—

I agree to everything you just said.

Look, man, it's been underwhelming sometimes. You meet these teams and The market just kind of funds it. It's all very self-referential. It's a lot of bullshit.

Luca, I know you got to hop in a sec. Anything else that we missed on? We didn't cover Pudgy World. I know you did. The Empire community wanted me to ask you about your past as well.

But yeah, I think every time we do something great, somebody tries to bring it up.

And there's one article— there's actually one guy on Twitter. He's like the reply guy. He's like, has anyone seen this article?

Oh no, they love it. There's like 3 guys who I think are just like perpetually angry. And it's strange. You know, one thing I've accepted is like, look, the, you know, I'm a people pleaser. It's probably a bad personality trait for myself, probably good for the community and for the people that I interact with. But I think from my perspective, it's like I came to this realization like, dude, there's people that hate Elon Musk. And as an entrepreneur, I just can't even fathom how somebody could hate a guy like that. Right. Probably the best entrepreneur that's ever existed. And like there's guys calling him a grifter, right? And then it's like, dude, like at the end of the day, like what, this guy's calling me a dropshipper? Like, dude, I grew up fucking homeless with my mom, you know? Like my mom was sleeping in the living room the moment we got a home, right, for the first time. And, you know, I made it out dropshipping. Like, how else is somebody supposed to make it out, right? Like whatever that is. And then, and then they make this claim to fame that's like, oh, some of the money that you used to buy Pudgy is tied to these NFT projects. You know, my my president and my co-founder Lorenzo ran a, a company called Cowboy Labs. They were going to raise a huge venture round before we bought Pudgy. Their whole business was basically creating technology to mint NFTs for people, right? They did over $200 million in secondary transactions through the platform, I think $50 million in primary mints, and he took his fee, right? Like, if people are going to start getting attacked for taking fees, for playing a role in projects, right, as service providers, if they are now responsible for the failure of those projects, this industry is done, right? I, for most people don't know, I own a huge Instagram network of millions of followers through these channels. People come to me all the time, or at least to the group that now runs that. You know, I'm obviously not in the day-to-day, you know, doing those exchanges and running those promotional campaigns through those platforms, basically on autopilot, right? But when people go through those platforms and want me to promote things, right? I charge my fee. Is that a percentage? Is that, you know, a flat rate, you know, at some amount that I yield for some premium? Like, that's my prerogative. But, you know, if I order something on Fashion Nova, and Fashion Nova, and the product comes, you know, ripped and burned, is it the marketing agency who fed me the ad who's responsible for the shitty product that got delivered? Or is it the shitty product? Ultimately, you know, this is my first time being a founder and a creator in any NFT project in crypto or anything in crypto. This is the only foundational equity role that I've ever played. Anything I've ever done before, I charged a service and charged a fee. Some people would argue that that fee was egregious because I did make good money. I ultimately think marketing is the most important variable in crypto for these crypto projects. So I think you have the most leverage to charge whatever fee that you want. My co-founder literally won— Cowboy Labs literally won a Wharton UPenn blockchain accelerator, number one, because of this business. The same business that people are saying is like a scam and they're scammers. I'm like, you know, the second that we penalize service providers and people playing roles in ecosystems, you know, within the industry is the second we've all failed. Now, naturally, there's just people who are angry and they're going through their own personal, you know, vendettas and trials and tribulations. And I can't tell you how many people used to call me mean things a year ago that come to me and say, dude, I was in a bad spot. And I remember the same time that I've, I've been an internet keyboard warrior. Anytime that I was in that mindset and saying those things on the internet, I was uncomfortable with myself. I was going through something and I was lashing out on people. So I take it all with a grain of salt. Ultimately, I think the final take to this point is actually a tweet that I saw this morning. Ironically enough, it was so ironic because it was two tweets back to back. It was one tweet that basically said, you know, Warren Buffett is the best venture investor of all time, right? And just gave him his flowers. And the second tweet was Warren Buffett, you know, invests in products that are killing the American people, and he is responsible for more deaths for Americans than any other person in the world. You know, two sides of the same coin. It's just how you rather look at it and what framing you want to take it, right? And it just comes down to that. You're not going to please everyone. The sophisticated people, the people who are real, who do real shit, Nobody comes to me saying those things because everyone knows the deal. The people who've just never done it and were going through things, you know, they have their own prerogative, but they probably think Elon Musk is a grifter. And so I just ignore it and move on.

My take on it, I read the article, is, is most people who came of age with the internet and who are now founders have at some point done some hustle on the internet that is frowned upon, like dropshipping. Like, I remember Like I chose between dropshipping and trading forex in college for like trading forex also gets a horrible name, right? But it's just a way to try to make money on the internet before it became clear to me that I could start a company, right? There's all, you know, multi-level marketing, Amway, Herbalife, Verve, Cutco. Can't tell you how many friends I have who did that too, right? I got involved with one of those when I was 18. You're just trying to make money on the internet before you realize that you can You know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of founders who played poker online.

Like, you gotta respect the hustle. And look, if you're gonna, if you're gonna shoot and criticize, it's like, man, you, you best believe that, you know, you're gonna back it up. You backed it up, right? You bought this community, you took it from where it was to where it is now. And, you know, people always come back to you, you know? It's like, it's like, what would you rather be? Someone that no one talks about, faded into irrelevance, or some of that, you know, The path to greatness is there's always going to be critics. Always.

Yeah. Yeah.

Hate you for it.

But I love the scene in The Last Dance that Michael Jordan and all his teammates are describing how difficult it was to work with Michael, and then they stop, and then one guy looks at his hands and like all the 5 championship rings. No one can take that fucking greatness away from you.

Yeah. Luca, pleasure, man. I know you got to jump. Appreciate the time. Congrats on everything. Get some rest. Get some sleep, man.

Appreciate you guys. It's a pleasure as always.

Hey everyone, thanks for watching today's episode. Just wanted to quickly thank today's title sponsor, SKALE. SKALE really is one of the best chain experiences out there today, and I've used so many different chains. There's a reason they are gaining so much adoption in both gaming and AI use cases. Hit the link in the show notes to explore the SKALE ecosystem.