6 Growth Channels that Actually Work with Rupa Health's ex-Head of Growth Koby Conrad

20 days away from Annual, 20-day countdown. So we hope that we are seeing many of you IRL in San Mateo. It's been awesome to see so many of you buy your tickets. We've been seeing those come through. So we are so excited to see you. We are gonna be taking a little bit of a short hiatus. We're just preparing for Annual, but rest assured that we'll be back post-Annual with the most popular workshops to dive in deeper to your questions. And you're even getting a little preview of a great Annual session today with our amazing speaker, Koby Conrad. Welcome, Kobe. We are excited to have you here.

Thank you so much, Taylor. I'm super excited to be here today.

So for you guys, Kobe is currently the head of growth at OneLeet, and he was formerly the head of growth at Ruba Health. He's going to be doing a really amazing session talking about growth channels and kind of diving into 6 that worked really well and kind of the ins and outs of what worked well and what his recommendations are. So we're going to have plenty of time for questions, so feel free to drop those throughout and I'll get you queued up to either ask him live or I can help ask you too if you're not in a place where you can do that. But Kobi, before we get going into your slides, let's just learn a little bit more about your current day-to-day role and what you're currently working on.

Yeah. Okay. So, hi, I'm currently running growth at OneLeads, which just for context is a platform for security compliance. You can kind of think of us like a Vanta competitor. So we do a lot of stuff with like SOC 2 and ISO. And yeah, it's really interesting. So As I'll go into like this in this presentation, we, we executed across a number of different channels with Rupa Health and my, my brain thinks in channels. So I'm like 60 days into this new role and currently just experimenting with what are the channels that are going to work really well for OneLeads. So playing around with a bunch of different stuff, newsletter ads, podcast ads, meta ads. We get a lot of traction through Y Combinator right now. So figuring out what's going to work for us outside of YC. Yeah, that's, that's the basic day to day. A lot of sales calls too.

Fun. Experimentation mode. That's always, always fun. And I'm really excited for people to see your tactics and how you've done it at Rupa Health. So in the last 12 months, what's the hardest thing that you've worked on?

Yeah, honestly, the honest answer, the hardest thing in the last 12 months has been quitting Rupa. That was such an insanely tough decision for me. I, love Rupa with every fiber of my being. I want to say we ended up with about 50 people on growth team. So just, it's crazy. So many people's like careers rely on you and just you make so many good friends over the years. I deeply miss my team in so many ways. So that was super tricky.

Bittersweet for sure, but great answer. I think a lot of people can relate to that. We always love to hear what is your current favorite SaaS tool or platform?

Yeah. So I will definitely have to give a shout out to PostHog. The new Google Analytics updates is absolutely insane. Like it's made Google Analytics like borderline not usable. And yeah, I set up my UTM links. We have like dedicated landing pages and we're like running like different ad campaigns. OneLead right now. And I have both Google Analytics and PostHog going side by side. And just the analytics from PostHog is the only reason I'm able to track any amount of attribution on my campaigns right now. Like the Google stuff is driving me insane. So yeah, huge shout out to PostHog, not just product analytics, but I think they're taking up major market share on the marketing analytics side as well. Love it.

We had not heard of that one before, so we always love that. That's why we ask that question so we can hear about some new— the stuff that everyone else is using. Okay, without further ado, I'm going to pass it over to you and then I'll be back for Q&A. But take it away.

Cool. I love it. Thank you so much, Taylor. Hi friends. So welcome to my presentation on 6 growth channels that helped Rupa build hundreds of millions in equity. So just background context. Hi friends, my name is Kobe. So past lives, most recently I spent about the last 3 and a half years scaling growth at Rupa Health. So just context, growth is always different between different orgs. So for us, it is sales, marketing, partnerships, lab relationships, and our media organization. So yeah, took us from about a $20 million seed to hundreds of millions of equity valuation depending on how you value us exactly. Primarily did that through scaling user acquisition. So when I first came on board, we were bringing on about 40 new doctors every single month. We scaled that by about 4,000% over the course of 3.5 years. Yeah, and then went through Y Combinator back in 2019. I raised $2 million to build a conflict-free replicated data type as a service. That was super fun. Never ultimately found like strong product market fit. And then like way back in previous lifetimes, I'd built half a million social media followers when I was 20 and then worked on really large marketing campaigns historically. Largest one, we were spending about $5 million a month on Google Ads. But yeah.

Oops, next slide.

Okay, cool. So there's all these like growth frameworks out there in the world. You got like loops and you got funnels. Take it for what it's worth, take the valuable stuff and get rid of the not valuable stuff. But my brain really thinks in terms of channels. So I've written a lot about this, but yeah, this conversation today is going to be primarily focused on what are the channels that will drive users for your product. My theory on this is very, very simple. I think all users come from channels. This helps my brain think through stuff like organic growth, word of mouth, all of that is still channels. And when you like start thinking of the world in terms of channels, you're allowed to build your product and optimize these things really, really well. So yeah, in my philosophy here, all users come from channels. There's usually an 80/20 split to channels, although in the B2B world there's usually a really strong overlap on as you like begin to layer channels, it becomes really powerful. And then yeah, once you identify your core channels, I think you're able to actually build your product around them, like moving beyond just like basic performance marketing or demand gen. I think understanding the channels that drive growth for your product allow you to take a product-led growth approach to this as well. Okay, so this conversation is going to be primarily about Rupa Health. So just for context of what Rupa is, so the rest of this makes sense. Rupa is a lab platform for doctors to be able to order laboratory tests so doctors can come on to Rupa. They're able to order from 30 different lab companies all on a single platform. Rupa has a catalog now of over 35,000 5 different labs, like 3,000, 4,000 different laboratory tests. So you can think of like your lipids panels. You can also think of like advanced like hormones or like GI testing as well. And yeah, so there's gonna be 6 channels we're gonna talk about today. So we're gonna talk through search, we're gonna talk through social, we're gonna talk through partnerships, we're gonna talk through conferences, shout out to Saastr. We're gonna talk through influencers and we're going to talk about outbound sales. And just again, definitions, channels are just different ways that people discover products. I gave action items at the end of each one of these sections, and I hope you guys find something in here that's useful that will allow you to iterate and do something a little bit better and take some value away from this conversation today. Okay, so search, started with search because not only for Rupa, but search is like one of the largest channels of growth in human history. So Starting with like the really basic boring stuff. Rupa, we spend a lot of money on search. So if someone searches for a specific lab test like a GI map, we will display an ad for that GI map. So yeah, you see on the left-hand side, search for it, like we come up first. Key learnings from just like the last couple of years, Performance Max got really, really good over the last few years. I think Google for like, I've been advertising on Google for like a decade. They have been trying to get their ML really, really good so you can just like press a button and start getting like ROI. I think they have like finally got there. Like it has been kind of this fight against Google to like find your way around their like stupid ML algorithms. But I mean, I've seen so many campaigns in like the last 6 to 12 months where you're optimizing everything on the search side, you're everything optimizing everything on like the dynamic display, but just the end of the day, like the PMax has like actually been drastically winning out. So yeah, key learnings, PMax got really good. Make sure you have your brand set up as an exclusive so you're not just bidding on your own brand terms, but set up your PMax, let it rip, make sure you like put in the right copy and creative and everything and give it time to learn. For us, and this will probably be valuable for anyone in like a three-sided marketplace like we are, or a two-sided marketplace, it was really interesting where doctors and patients were searching for the same thing. Old school advertising is like you threw up a billboard and one person will be walking down the street that like will need new shoes. So you're like trying to speak really specifically to that person. And digital ads got really good at like filtering out everyone else except that one person that needs your product. But I think in the B2B space, sometimes sometimes you can still get like a really strong overlap. So for us, it was just really interesting. We had patients looking for GI maps and we had doctors looking for GI maps. And what's like fascinating is ultimately our product strategy also plays into this because, cool, we're primarily bidding to acquire doctors, but we threw— we have thrown away so much patient demand of patients trying to get into our system and like order this stuff. I don't want to say too much of what's like on the private roadmap, but there are definitely plays to figure out like how to capture this patient demand. And then yeah, for us, just the most valuable searches were test names and individual biomarkers. So spending millions of dollars on paid search, wouldn't it be great if we could own that traffic for free? So one of the first things that we did was we took our catalog and we made what we call our reference guide. So the reference guide is, you can think of it like developer documentation, but for doctors. And this is really, really cool because this is a programmatic SEO play that was enhanced with AI and then reviewed within a small army of medical doctors. So just like a couple of key concepts here, right? We had a catalog that was like blocked off behind like a login system. So in order to like view our catalog, like you had to log in. That was not good for search. So we needed to build a user experience that would open up our catalog to Google. So we're able to index all the things on our catalog. Going back to it was lab tests. So we, we had all of this metadata already available with different lab company names, different test names. And then within every test, there would be collections of biomarkers. So every like lab test might have like 50 biomarkers. So Maybe there's 35 lab companies, maybe there's 3,000 tests, and within each test maybe there's anywhere from 3 to 50 biomarkers. So maybe there's like 10,000 biomarkers. So what we did was we programmatically took all of that like metadata we had and then we enhanced it with AI. So we took AI and we added like AI content on top of like the programmatic play. And then we had a small army of medical doctors then go back over the programmatic and AI to medically edit it. And yeah, the end result was now not only if you search for GI Map do we show up on the paid ads, but we're also showing up organically right underneath the laboratory themselves. So it allowed us to capture millions of dollars of paid traffic completely for free organically. So in addition to the reference guide— oh wait, sorry. Yeah, this is a reference guide. Yeah, just structure landing page for every lab test, landing page for every test, landing page for every biomarker. Landing page for every category of lab test. And then this married the PSEO play with AI-enhanced content. So in addition to the reference guide, we also publish 150 articles a month. This usually kind of surprises people. I want to say like 95% of people I talk to probably aren't publishing enough content. The way that we did this was we, we brought in a small army of medical contributors to come and write content for us. Um, to, to do SEO, like SEO is simple but hard and it's simple but hard because it, like, all you need to do is write the best content that exists in the world. Like, like simple, right? Um, and you gotta do that at scale. So I, I think that you people will like either follow like one of these two paths and they'll get themselves like, I'm just gonna go massive long tail and create a bunch of low quality content. Or they'll go like hyper on the other direction of like, I'm going to create really good stuff, but like, I'm just like a small amount of it. To actually win is you need to do both. Is everything you publish needs to be better than any other article that exists for it. And then you have to figure out how to do that at scale. And like, that is why SEO is like actively hard. So the way that we did this was we, we worked with a small army of medical contributors. We also layer in AI and this, like my approach of how I approach this was I don't think Google gives a shit if something is made by AI as long as it's better than anything else that exists. So AI is raising the floor, but there's still a lot of room on the ceiling of how do you make something better? So bringing in someone that's actually an expert on the topic is really effective. So you don't want to just, just like take your AI articles. You want to make sure that there's like an actually an expert like review reviewing them. And then we also layered in like actually medically reviewing it, having everything AMA sourced, layering in graphics. And so we bring in experts, we help them write better through AI. Like that's the other thing is like you can have really smart PhDs that are just shitty writers, but like their information is really good. So it's like, how do you, how do you help these really smart people express what they're trying to express and write it in a better way? Layer in really, really great design, layer in a really great medical editing team, and then like actually source everything so you can like go back and cite your information. And that allows you to create stuff that's way better than either stuff that's purely human written or either stuff that's just purely written by the AI.

Cool.

And yeah, just here's a fun Ahrefs. This is performance over time. So 3.5 years, we're able to drive over, this is even higher now. It's like at 400,000, 500,000 page views a month from organic SEO. So this is really interesting because when I first started and walked into Rupa, like the first thing I started doing was like, cool, testing the basic stuff. Let's test Google Ads, let's test Facebook Ads. We started 95% paid where like in order to acquire users, we had to spend money. Now it's bulk is organic where we're getting all of the search traffic. We don't have to pay for it. There's a lot of like very famous VCs out there that will criticize like, ah, paid doesn't scale. Um, which is true, you know, like, like with the paid, each additional, uh, person you buy is going to cost you more money than the one before it. Um, the disclaimer to paid doesn't scale is that if you also are focusing on the organic version of that channel, that channel will scale for you. So over time you'll be able to acquire more and more traffic at a better and better unit economic. And that is how you start with paid and then like eventually transition out. The, the pitfall is when you only ever stay on the paid side. Um, so, uh, fun action items here, uh, to do. So, uh, 95% of the people listening to this probably aren't publishing enough content. Uh, SEO is hard because you need to A, create something better that exists in the world right now. Um, but then to B, also do that at scale. And then, um, yeah, I really like to take a strategy where I combine targeted landing pages with also a spray and pray approach. Um, so creating stuff that is focused on like what you know is important, like taking your most valuable keywords that you're spending paid, uh, paid ads on. Um, but then also, uh, bring in experts and start creating like mass content at scale. Um, there's, there's probably so many keywords that maybe don't make sense from an ROI point of view on the paid side, but if you can organically rank, uh, articles and content for it, it's probably gonna be super valuable for you. Um, and then yeah, uh, there's lots of cool things you can do right now with programmatic SEO and AI where like take whatever database of content you have and enhance it with AI, bring in graphics, and then have humans edit it on top. And that's just my current formula for how do I create really, really great content at scale. Okay, social. So, um, at Rupa, we built our social primarily for the social proof. Um, B2B is really interesting in the sense that maybe there's only like 100,000 doctors or 20, 20 to a couple hundred thousand people in your industry that, that makes sense. It is very easy to display ads in front of them. The issue is that those don't scale for forever, but it can play an incredibly important aspect and an incredibly important role when it comes to building trust, which will enable you to leverage partnerships and like bring in lighthouse users. It's a very important piece of the overall process.

Our—

I'll dive in this later, but our very first partnership we ever got was from someone that found us through a paid ad, like on social. And like without that, we wouldn't have been able to like secure one of our first major partnerships. Like they just literally wouldn't have talked to us. So yeah, we build our social primarily for the social proof. Super important for building trust with early partners and users. Currently we have about 400,000 followers on Facebook. Just for us, doctors are on Facebook, which is why that channel is important. Important for us. And then we have about 108,000 followers on Instagram. Okay, so just random, some tactical stuff of like what's working organically. So, you know, our YouTube strategy actually started from something very similar to this webinar you guys are on right now. We, for 3 and a half years, we call them live classes, but we'll bring in like a doctor to come do a live class. We did that and we were just like posting that on YouTube. And then what we did was we took our very best, like, content creators that came in through that, and then we basically created primo versions of those calls. So we used that as, like, kind of, like, our testing system to figure out, like, what topics and good speakers would, like, perform well. And then, like, once we found ones that, like, really engaged, we, we brought in, like, editors. We, we taught them how to be influencers. We layered in, like, really professional graphics and designs on top of that. Um, and we, we had just a lot of success with YouTube on that. Um, the other thing I would say on YouTube for, for what it's worth, if anyone's struggling with this right now, um, we published 150 videos on YouTube before we got like any traction. I think like before, before we broke, had a video break like 10K views, we were literally, I wanna say like 176 videos in before we like had our first quote unquote banger that like took off. Um, so yeah, YouTube. So, uh, going back again, I, I would've tried to make larger changes earlier, but also it's kind of just a play of like figuring out how to build users over time. Um, the other thing I'll say is we, we tested just like what is important when it comes to YouTube. So like, do thumbnails matter? Do you do like titles matter? Like, does having a really good hook in the beginning matter? Honestly, I think 80% of YouTube is topic. You can think of YouTube as clusters of topics. And for any individual topic, there's going to be a bunch of content and it can either be really competitive or not competitive for that topic. And you want to find topics that are trending. So like the, the search interest for that topic is rapidly increasing and you want to find topics that don't have a lot of competition. Um, so for us, it was, uh, like really weird, obscure things that I'm too technically dumb to like identify. And I had to bring in like teams of doctors to like help me figure this out. So for, for us it was like nitric oxide for whatever reason, like everything we publish about nitric oxide like just blows up like, and we figured this out 'cause we posted like the worst video of my life and it just went like boom. So then once we figured that out, we started creating like better content for nitric oxide. Other stuff for us was like H. pylori and like, like weird, weird things like that. And the reason why that worked is like, they're like these obscure things that only these like industry insiders kind of knew about. So there wasn't a bunch of good like generic content marketers like myself that had already realized this. And so like once we were able to like figure out those, those like topics that performed well, we were able to iterate on it. The next thing on like Twitter/X, whatever you prefer to call it these days, that worked really well. I convinced our CEO to start tweeting and that was probably one of the highest ROI things I've ever done, if I can just take credit for that. Basically, I challenged her to a bet and be like, hey, Tara, do you want to see who can get to like 20,000 followers first? And it was like me, Tara, and Cody Schneider. If you follow growth marketing people on Twitter and Tara is a hypercompetitive individual. So like the moment I challenged her, she just started going off on Twitter. Takeaways of this is teach your CEO how to tweet, figure out whatever you can do to like convince them to actually get active on this platform. do what is necessary to bribe them and motivate them and get them to do this. Uh, this was like the highest ROI thing that we ever did when it came to hiring. Um, we did this purely for the hiring brand. We didn't do this at all for like doctors and stuff. Um, but this made us, uh, I want to say like half of the interviews that I did after this, like once she really got it going, like they would mention, oh, I heard about you first on Twitter. Um, The other takeaway from this is like our brand page never like just didn't do good. We would post identical content or like we played around with a bunch of stuff, but like things I was like, oh my God, this is the best tweet in the world. Like I post that from the brand account. Like nobody gives a shit. Is like when it comes to social people, people follow people, not brands. It's very hard to run a brand account. And if you like are doing a brand account, like you have to like personalize it and like create like a face and a human behind it. And last, just like random technical thing, if any of you guys are still on Facebook, links work really well in the comments. Don't post links in the body and don't post links as links. We like 10x the amount of like link traffic we got to our podcast articles and to our podcast episodes and to our magazine articles once we started switching the links to the comments. For whatever reason right now, the algorithm is just like massively rewarding that. But yeah, so with Rupa currently, our big bet is YouTube currently. Context for this, I think for the first time ever, search is, search is in danger. Like Google, Google I think is actively losing market share when it comes to search. Like all this AI content is coming out. User flow that used to go to articles is now being pushed to like the, the Google search, the AI prompt. So yeah, I like, I'm still investing in search. I still think it's going to have a very huge place in the world. But I am terrified that like if 95% of my users are coming through search right now, that, which isn't true, but like if the bulk of my users are coming through search, I'm like really worried like what's going to happen to that scale. So we're like diversifying our channels and making larger bets into other platforms. Some of them that we're trying to do is like, how do we make things that are AI resistant? So one of those things that is quote unquote AI resistant is like, is video. I think that's going to be longer before video gets completely replaced with AI in the same way that articles and content is. That being said, some of the videos that came out recently are freaking amazing. So stay tuned. I could be wrong about that. Um, yeah, yeah. Anyways, uh, so topic of YouTube is really important. Headlines, thumbnails, all of that is like critical. Um, but topic I think is like 80% of YouTube is like figuring out the right topics to create content around. Uh, when it comes to most everything, ditch the brand account, create followings that are people, um, like founders, influencers, uh, people want to follow humans. And then if you're still on Facebook, drop links in the, drop links in the comment, not in the body of the post.

Okay.

Partnerships. So one of the coolest things from an evil marketer's point of view that we do is we pay schools to teach about us. So within the medical space, doctors don't actually learn that much about lab tests when they go through their like MD program or whatever they learn through like these post-medical school organizations. And just within the space that we operated, which is like functional integrative medicine, there's just like a ton of these things. So going back to one of the first partners we ever got was the Kalish Institute, and we were able to like get that partnership because their team was actively talking about us because of our Facebook social presence. But yeah, we, we started paying all these schools to integrate us into their curriculum. So they would teach, oh, you should be ordering a Dutch test or you should be ordering a GI map test, but not just that, you should be ordering it on Rupa Health. Health. And that was like just insanely effective. Like there's no better way to like build credibility and usage by like getting the people that teach you how to practice to like teach about your tooling. I think this is probably fairly applicable to a lot of people. Like especially in the B2B space, if you're dealing with anything that's like specialized knowledge, like even with like Onely and security, like people learn how to become pen testers, like, like career content is like one of the biggest like niches in cybersecurity. And there's so many schools and boot camps and just places that like are teaching into this niche. This is super applicable in a number of different areas. So we were spending all this money to sponsor schools. Like the stuff will cost anywhere from like $5,000 to like half a million dollars. Like a lot of money sponsoring these institutes. So we built our own school. Cool. Like, this will be like a recurring theme across this presentation is we'll deploy money into channels and then I'll get really tired of like looking at myself in the mirror and be like, Jesus Christ, Kobe, I can't believe you're spending this much money here. Like, you should just build this yourself. So we were deploying all this money into schools and we're like, damn, we could probably do this better. So we built our own university. So this university started, like I said, very similar to like this webinar right here where like every week we brought in industry experts that would like teach you about something, you know, and like, guys, like, this is cool, right? Like, you get— we talk about an hour about growth marketing. You're going to walk away from this and feel like, oh, this is pretty good. Maybe I have some, like, action items, but it, like, doesn't beat, like, a 6-week program or something where, like, you pay money to have commitment. Like, you're able to, like, have much smaller cohort sizes. Like, you go through, like, a full, much more fleshed-out program. Um, that is what creates, like, actual usage in the context of, um, like, specialized knowledge like this. So what we did was we took live classes at the top, then we layered in paid boot which are 6-week programs. You spend $400. With these, you would get a free lab test. So you would get a test as part of the cost of the bootcamp that you would then order on yourself. And then you'd go through a 6-week program to learn how to use and implement that test. And this is freaking amazing, guys. Like, this does over a million dollars a year just by itself now. It is profitable and it drives acquisition. So like, think of terms of like Google Ads where you're like paying money is like, cool, I want to scale that with positive ROI. Organic search is great because like, cool, now I'm getting this Google Ads I don't have to pay for. This is even better where it's like my users are paying me money to learn how to pay me more money. So I classify this as like negative CAC where like you're making money through your acquisition efforts. So yeah, this is really fun. Last thing I'll say about this is the learning from this came from like product insight. Like this wasn't just like a growth marketing insight. This was us talking to our users when they were coming to us and being like, what else do you wish we had? And one of the number one things they would tell us is like, oh, I really wish I knew, had more resources to learn about these lab tests. So yeah, currently offer free lab classes, bootcamps, and then mentorship programs, which is like a bootcamp, but you just never stop paying me money. Um, so action items around this. So first of all, you're probably missing some kind of key partnership beyond just major influencers. Um, I've seen this take a number of different, uh, flavors. Um, so they could be schools, it could be co-marketing with integrated products, it could be licensing organizations, it could be credentialing organizations. There's probably really important organizations in your industry that you should make sure you're partnering with. With. Um, the second piece of this is tech companies are super afraid of service businesses, but I would say in the context of like growth marketing, you shouldn't be afraid of service businesses on top of your tech products if they can drive acquisition. Hiring an army of salespeople is a service anyways. Um, so if there's like cool service things you can do on top of your core product that will drive acquisition, uh, don't be afraid of that. And then, um, yeah, third is look at product usage to determine like good directions of which to build partnerships, like what integrates into your product? What are your users asking for? What can you build on top of your core product? There's so many of the best businesses are built around, on top of, or like literally are services. Rupa, in our early days, we were like a Wizard of Oz product where we, we integrate with these lab partners. But when we say integrate, these people don't have APIs. It was like an army of humans, like doing the thing behind the scenes. Like, don't be that afraid of it. Okay, conferences. I feel like Jason's gonna give me a grade on how good my conference info is after this. Okay, so with Rupa, we go to about 20 conferences a year. And this is us in all of our shiny spacesuits. And now you might be asking me, Kobe, what's with the spacesuit? Why do you show up in conferences with a spacesuit? The reason is so people will come up to me and ask me, why are you in a spacesuit? This is literally one of the most effective things that we've ever done. Imagine like the stuffiest medical conference you can imagine. People like, this isn't San Francisco Tech. This is like stuffy medical conferences. People are there in like suit and ties. They're like all polished. It's all like MDs and stuff. And then all the booths are just like that. And then there is Rupa with music blasting. We're like dancing in spacesuits. Like super sparkly. Number one thing is like, if you're gonna show up, be visually disruptive. Don't blend into the chaos of the conference hall. Do whatever you can to just make sure that like visually you like completely stand out. So key learnings from these conferences. Rule number one is most important part of a conference is like standing out. Like figure out what you can do to be visually disruptive. Like make sure you look at the conference hall and like do as much research as you can and just do the exact opposite of what everyone everyone else is doing. Number 2 is it's not just about showing up. It's about how you show up. I'm a huge believer in this is that if you're going to show up to a conference, you should either show up strong or you should just literally not be there. Like if you show up and you're the smallest booth in the back of the conference, that is a statement about your brand. That's not always necessarily the best statement. And you might be able to track people down and have like positive ROIs. But the times that we have shown up and we like show up as the headliner and we show up super, super strong, that has always been our highest ROI. Number 3 is just make sure you understand where your ROI is going to come from for the conference. There is more to the world, especially in the B2B space, than just closing immediate deals. For us, we showed up to conferences for partnerships with our laboratory partners, not necessarily for the Doctors, like we wanted to break even on the doctors, which is like our quote unquote, like our immediate ticket sale. But our laboratories, I mean, damn, if like we're doing $10 million a year with a specific lab and I can get that lab to pay me like 1% more money, that's like our whole conference budget for the whole year. So just like make sure you understand like where the ROI is. It could very likely be beyond just like immediate ticket sales. There can likely be like very important partnerships that play into these conferences. Yeah. And then rule number 4, the most profitable perks usually aren't on the menu. There's been so many conferences that I went to that they give me a media kit. They're like, this is how much the booth is. Like, this is what you do to show up. And then I would be like, can you send an email about me? And they're like, well, we don't really do that. And I'll be like, well, I'll be your headliner. Like, I'll, like, come and be like the number one thing at this person. All I really want is I want you to send like a dedicated dedicated email about me. And they would do that and that would be more effective than actually showing up to the conference. And like, you can't get them to do that at the start. Like some people will, but like the ones where it's actually even the most valuable is where they first tell you no, that I don't do that for anybody. And then you convince them, hey, no, really send me a dedicated email. I'm going to be your number one sponsor. I've had so many times where like just that dedicated email was a higher ROI than us actually showing up to the event. There's, but yeah, usually with conferences, is like the most profitable perks, you either aren't on the menu or you can't actually pay for. And then just like 5th learning is don't give away like business cards is like the worst one is like give them swag that needs to be carried and brought home. Like for us, like Liquid, we had these like teddy bears that were like dressed in like a little Rupa astronaut costume and people would like take these home for their kids and they'd just be, they'd just be a conference floor flooded with these like teddy bears. You'd see them all over the place. Like you can't just put it in your pocket or put it in your backpack. Like you have to like carry the thing. And people would like literally fight over them. We'd had practitioners like borderline like threatened to like leave us horrible reviews all over the place and shit because like they couldn't get their hands like one of these little teddy bears that we had. So action items. Email is king with conferences, just in my opinion. If you can get a dedicated email, that can often work even better than just like physically showing up to the event. The best perks of conferences usually aren't on the media kits. These can be speaking opportunities. These can be dedicated email sends. This can be convincing someone to actually like share their contact lists. These are all things like are hard to pay for. They won't do. But like if you can make good enough friends with something, they are technically possible. So figure out how to make it happen. And then it's not just about showing up. It's about how you show up. Like showing up as a headliner doesn't just mean you're in front of more people. It means that the strength of the impression is much stronger. So bigger ticket items are often actually the highest ROI thing that I've seen rather than like the smaller ticket things. And then just fourth bonus, I—

this—

everyone's going to Saastr here, I probably, but I fricking love lanyards. Lanyard sponsorships have been like some of the highest ROI things I've seen. Especially if you're like a no-name brand and like you're just showing up for the first time and you're like trying to like talk to people about your company and they're like, oh, who are you? I like, I haven't heard of you before. It can be like, sir, ma'am, you are wearing me around your neck. Welcome. I'm Kobe with Rupa Health. That has been like wildly effective for us. Okay. Influencers. So for us, Influencers are really, really important. They're often very, very important in most B2B industries. Key learning for this for us was that doctors learn from other doctors. If you are in the medical space, this is like one of the most important lessons I learned in like my time in healthcare. Medicine at a certain point turns into magic. And what I mean by this is if you look at like case studies and you like look at all the scientific literature that points to X, there will always be two sides of that story. And what I've seen is that people will just use whatever they believe to like try to push whatever, whatever it is they want to believe. And at a certain point it's like it, I, I don't know how to properly phrase this. It, it eventually, it eventually kind of turns into like magic, like, like, like, like you just kind of have to believe. And where, where I'm going with this is that trust in XYZ is the right thing to do, um, comes from these influencer doctors. Um, guys, I'm so sorry, someone is vacuuming right now. I'm gonna put on my headphones really fast.

We can't hear it either, Kobe. We can't hear the background noise, so you're good. No, it sounds worse for you.

Yeah, sorry. This is literally—

Okay, you guys can still hear me okay, Taylor? Yep, we're good.

I'm gonna share a little bit. Yep, there you go.

Love it.

Back to, back to doctors.

Okay, so doctors learn from other doctors. People will believe a celebrity doctor with a million followers that says something more than they'll believe the actual scientific studies behind find it. So because of that, this was just like an incredibly important piece of our play. Not— and this is very true too in like the consumer world is you'll get a lot of like medical misinformation that's being spread around and it's just like a double-edged sword if you're like trying to influence people doing it from the point of view of an MD with like millions of followers is just wildly impactful and it's just the state of the world that we live in right now. So with Hyman, I want to say spent like Hyman costs, you can do your own math. Hyman costs $5,000 per episode. We, for the last 3 years, sponsored almost every single episode. He publishes multiple ones a week.

We were spending like a metric boatload of money with Hyman.

So going back to, I was like looking in the mirror being like, holy cow, I spent so much money with this dude. I should just build my own influencer. So yeah, we hired Dr. Carrie Jung Kerry Jones, who is one of the most talented ladies I've met in my life to be our head of medical education. We built the Root Cause Medicine podcast, which is like a top 10 medical podcast. Still not as big as Hyman's, but give us a little bit more time. An interesting learning of this is Kerry had like her, her brand was already too big. Like at a certain point, she, she continued to grow and grow and grow and then like she left us and we cried. So what we did the second time around is we found someone with a much smaller brand. So if you can build a brand around someone smaller that's still like A+ credibility and A+ like content creation, you are able to own that as a company much more than if you hire in someone that's a bigger brand. Last thing about like influencers, especially podcasts, attribution tracking is really hard to do. Ask users how they heard about you and then you kind of have to make a guess in the dark. Hyman was our number one source of how people heard about us as they put it in. The reason we were able to know that is we did it so early and he was so big that we would just see a massive increase in signups and then they would drop off. So we knew it was coming from Hyman. In, but we were only able to show attribution for about half of them. So if you were already big, this becomes really hard because it means that in order to like see that bump, you're gonna have to spend a lot of money. And in order to just like see the total end of your like signups or leads or deals or whatever, you're gonna, you're just gonna have to spend enough money to actually see a bump in order, and then you're gonna have to make like a really strategic guess. But done effectively, it can be just insanely impactful. So action items around this, likely there's a huge 80/20 in your industry by simply going to the biggest influencers in your space. If you're dropping major money on influencers, make sure to be building your own versions as well so you're not tied to them forever. Third, attribution isn't real when it comes to podcasts and stuff like this. You kind of have to go with your Got like, ask people, how did you hear about us? Create discount codes, make landing pages for that specific influencer that you've like pushed them to. But just know that like the direct attribution you can see is probably at best like 50% accurate and that the true ROI is likely gonna be much higher than what you're able to see. Yeah. Okay. I believe this is my last section. So outbound sales.

Okay.

So, hi, this is Toby. I'm your Rupa lab rep. Are you still interested in ordering Dutch tests?

You know, it's really funny.

This was the very last thing that we scaled, and this was to do for a number of reasons. First of all, if you're hiring a team of people to do sales and you fuck up, that sucks because it means you have to start firing people. People. Like if you mess up on Facebook ads or Google ads, you just like turn down the budget. If you mess up with sales teams, it means you started having to have a bunch of really hard conversations that can just have a horrible impact on your organization. The second thing is that when we started doing this at the start, it didn't work. And the reason it didn't work was like no one had heard about us before. Cold calling and like outbound, outbound sales becomes so much more impactful once you layer in everything else. The calls that we have towards the end of my time at Rupa, it went from, I'm a busy doctor, why are you calling me? Please fuck off, to, oh my God, I love Rupa Health. I've seen you all over Hyman's podcast and I get all of your emails and I've watched your webinars and I love you to death. I've been thinking about you, how can I talk to you? So yeah, just some tactical stuff that helped us take this for what it's worth. So I put this into like bad, good, and great. So I think a bad cold call pitch is super generic, right? It's like, hi, this is Kobe. Do you order lab tests? A better version of this is, hi, this is Kobe. I'm your Rupa lab rep. Do you order lab tests? The I'm your Rupa lab rep works like two concepts behind this. The first one is that doctors are already used to having reps for different things. Like they have a supplement rep, they'll have a Cyrex rep, they'll have a GI Map rep. They, they're used to having reps for things that they use. So having like a reason and a category and like some kind of pattern match to call them in a way that like makes sense in their brain. First, it'll help you get through more gatekeepers because it adds legitimacy to like why you're calling. And then second, it, you're just like pattern matching in a, in a language that they understand, way better.

Then like the great version of it is like, hi, this is Kobe.

I'm your Rupa lab rep. Like, are you still ordering Dutch Kapoets? And the reason for this is it's like super specific, right? It's like, it sounds like I have a reason to be calling you. It's like, oh, you're ordering the specific thing. Like, I am your lab rep. I'm pattern matching to this like language of product that you're like super passionate about and like only you know. So like if you call, like I get this all the time. It's like, ah, Kobe, Hey, Kobe, do you want some lead generation on Twitter? Do you want some lead generation on LinkedIn? That is so boring and generic. But if you're calling me and you're like, hey, Kobe, my name is so-and-so and I'm really, really good at creating SOC 2 leads through this very specific channel that you care about. And I did this for Vanta and Drata and Secure Frame. And here's my case study that showed like 1,000x ROI. All of a sudden that becomes way more interesting. So the sooner you can pattern match to like someone's like very specific thing that they care about, you'll just see the ROI of your contacts like drastically increase. So yeah, why does this work for us? Our audience was first used to us at this point. They liked their local reps for supplements and labs. We had built a huge amount of brand love. Of before we started cold calling people. Like it had sucked beforehand. We're able to pattern match with our users really well. Also just a key element of this, we were selling into small businesses. So we would call them solo practitioners, but often they were doctors, which meant we could actually get the decision maker to pick up. It wasn't like we were gatekept behind like this admin person that like wouldn't pass us on to the doctor. We were able to identify the phone numbers and we were able to get in direct contact with decision makers. And then, yeah, we layered this with email, LinkedIn, and direct mail outbound as well. So it wasn't just cold calling and like these concepts also apply to all these other channels. It is email, LinkedIn, direct mail, all the above. So action items. Email is an important part, but make sure you're still cold calling. We saw a massive delta in conversion rates of our contacts between simply automated emails and messages versus adding the cold calling. Separate from— I almost always separate my cold calling function from my inbound function. It is so hard to manage and train people to hunt versus convert inbound leads. If you're trying to convert leads that are coming to you versus hunting for new business. I have just always separated those and found just drastically increased successes. People get super specialized into sales motions. With Rupa, we broke out our sales teams like that. So we had separate teams for inbound lead conversion, for outbound, like hunting, and then we actually had a completely separate team for conferences as well, which is like a different motion all within itself. Third piece is outbounding doesn't live in isolation. Make sure you layer in marketing and blend the ROI, but your budget ROI, so it's not like 100% given to outbound, like marketing and podcasts and everything else you do absolutely makes an impact on your outbound. And then fourth case is outbound sucks. I don't know how many of you guys have like cold called people before, or, but like, I don't know, my first door, my first job was like door-to-door sales and like I'll knock on someone's door and like a couple times I had like guns pointed in my face and stuff. Like even on like calls and stuff, it's like you get so many people that'll like tell you to off. Um, outbound sucks. Uh, I don't like thinking of this as a junior role. I think that people that are truly world-class at outbound are worth their weight in gold, and you should probably pay them well. Cool. Okay, so closing takeaways. Um, first, all users come from channels. All users come from channels. Solving for channel is one of the biggest moments of inflection in a company's post like building a good product/product market fit. I think that startups usually go in stages where it's like, first, can this team/founder build something that anyone is going to give a shit about? But once that happens, like the next major inflection point is once you figure out how to scale your channels. Like once you scale channels, that's when like real growth starts to happen beyond just simple word of mouth. Mouth and you can see like a 10,000% increase in like how big a company gets. This is so important if you are an investor or if you are a marketer, if you are thinking about joining a company. I've seen so many people make a massive amount of money just around that concept. Second, start experimenting with paid to see what is effective. Don't rely on paid for the rest of your double down on organic versions of whatever is converting for you on the paid side. And then once you identify major channels, make sure to build your product and features, um, to do around those major channels. So don't just separate marketing and sales from products. Make sure you think through like product strategy and roadmap and how that plays in with your most major channels. Um, cool. Okay guys, and that is everything. I hope something in there was useful and you will take that away and find that value Um, but yeah.

Hey Kobe, it's Jason M. Lemkin. Um, I know we just have a few minutes, but I thought I might help with a few questions I was curious about. Um, first of all, oh, at the end, cold calling in 2024. So what do you mean? Do you mean cold calling be—

you—

who are you cold calling? You telling me doctors are thrilled in the middle of surgery or in the middle of a patient that they, they're so thrilled some 21-year-old SDR called them in the middle of their hectic days. What do you mean by cold calling working?

I literally mean that. Our people weren't surgeons, for context. They are busy doctors. But yeah, we were absolutely able to get doctors on the phone and get them to buy our products like through cold calling. Uh, so I mean, if it works for us in that situation, like, I, I'd be very hard-pressed to believe, like, it doesn't work for other people as well. Um, but yeah, it was—

I do think there's a theme in all of your— I do think that all this stuff, a lot of the stuff you talk about works if you do it really well. Um, some, some of it may not work if you do a mediocre job, but anyhow, it's a good challenge. So you're having kids with a script that you wrote call them to set up an appointment so an AE will try to sell them the, the product?

Uh, I actually made them full life cycle. Um, so I, I, you, we hired, say, like 5-ish outbound reps, and what we did was we gave them, um, contacts, go hunt down these people and get them to close and buy and use our product. So they're full life cycle. Um, the other thing too is, uh, we, we gave them very targeted context. So you can spend a lot of time calling people that are just a waste of lead. What we did was we heavily lead scored these people. So we scraped our whole industry. We put them into an Excel sheet. We layered in the number of Google reviews, your domain age, your domain authority, how many social media followers you had. We, then we basically took like the top 10,000 of those people and we say, these are our 10,000 most valuable customers. And then we told that team to go hunt down those people through any means possible. So call them, email, show up at the door, do whatever it takes to get in front of these people and call them. Yeah. I'll say we had 50% contact rates. Like, it was cold calling is effective. Yeah.

And a lot of them going in person too, to try to get in the door.

Yeah.

We would do it in whatever location the reps are in. Honestly, they weren't as thrilled as that piece, but it was mostly cold calling and emailing. But yeah, no, we definitely knocked on a few, actually physically knocked on a few doors still.

But it sounds like, and then just maybe one or two other different ones. It does sound like it's interesting that work, but you did, you did assist them by giving them a pretty quality list of folks to hunt for. It was qualified. It was segmented. They weren't given shitty leads. They didn't have to open the Yellow Pages. You gave them each 1,000 names and their job was to go down this over X months, right? And were judged based on their connect rate to the folks, the 1,000 folks on the list.

Yeah. Connect, same close.

Yeah.

Connect.

Oh, you're right. They're full stack. Okay.

Yeah.

It's good. It's a challenge. I, I do think people are, um, anyway, I wanna go out. I do. I, it's a great story. It's almost one worth digging more into, like cold calling, right? I, I think it's one of the sales skills that has degraded, um, with the lazy sales rep who just randomly is calling numbers they got off Apollo or ZoomInfo to annoy you. So doing it right, I think, is maybe even more of an art than, uh, than you let on. But that's good. Um, the other one, just for folks, um, in terms— so that's lazy selling. A question on lazy marketing. Um, all the stuff on SEO you talked about, 150 articles a month, um, relatively top names, I think you said something very important that it needs to, to break through on SEO today. And let's not even talk about AI search. It has to be the best of breed content or it's not ultimately gonna work, right? Two questions. One is, is it worth doing, if you're, if you're a marketer and you have limited time and this isn't your passion area, is it worth doing a B-minus effort here?

Hmm. That's a good question.

Not everyone can do what you just did for a variety of reasons. And I see a lot of mediocre content marketing and people feeling like they're making progress with mediocre marketing. Where's the line where it's worth it and where it's not even worth it?

Yeah, I'm gonna follow that up with something else that I get asked a lot is like, should I hire an agency to do this?

Um, yeah.

And I think it's a very similar question is like, this isn't my core company.

That's a line. That's a version of it, right? I'll have an agency do it for $15,000 a month.

Yeah. I'm a simple man when it comes to my growth formula. It is how good is the product and how good is your distribution, and that equals growth. So make the product better and like distribute yourself. This is my— oh, hello fireworks. That's weird. This is my philosophy. If you wouldn't hire a like a contract, like, like an agency for your product managers to like make all of your product decisions. I don't think you should do that for growth marketing, like for marketing and sales either. Like if it's going to be valuable for you, you should own it. I think the, the places that I've brought in agencies is when I like need the quote unquote best person in the world to do something. So I actually, I actually almost go the other direction. Where I'll start doing it myself, but I won't be as egotistical to believe that I am the best human that has ever existed on the face of the planet, like Google Ads. But I will then go and try to find that person and bring that person in at scale to go and manage and do an even better job than me. So I usually will go that direction rather than the opposite of like, cool, like, this is my best thing. Like, how do I find someone worse to do it? I'd be like, cool, I'm going to make this a core competency and then I'm going to bring in like even better experts to come and execute here. Yeah.

Hiring an agency before you have a basic level of core competence in the function is a recipe for losing all of your money. Just, just, you might as well just burn it. But it's a good insight. Maybe it's true because I think we were running out of time. But I'd love to learn from what you said. All these channels you talked about, you talked a little bit less about referrals given I can't, I, whether it's dot, especially in verticalized SaaS, like referrals are everything and the word of mouth is everything. We can talk about marketing forever. It's all word of mouth in my opinion. And everything you're doing is to accelerate word of mouth, get the sales rep to accelerate word of mouth, get the event. This is my opinion, but referral, I would Vertical SaaS, they work even better. Doctors talk, they don't compete, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, they compete lightly. Any best practices you learned to accelerate that referral loop?

Yeah. Okay, so two things. First of all, just context setting in medicine. There's a lot of legal stuff around referrals, so a lot of the things I meant word of mouth, maybe more than paid referrals, but good point.

It's hard to pay, maybe very impossible to pay people, right? To bribe them.

I usually think of referrals as a way to accelerate word of mouth. There's some caveats to that where like product is important and marketing is important. When I'm thinking through like how do I incentivize like more referrals and like word of mouth to happen, I will usually think through, there's a really good book Hooked that will talk to like people's like different like motivating factors, right? So you got like rewards at the self, you got rewards of the tribe, and you got rewards of the hunt. So rewards of the self is like self-mastery, rewards of the tribe is like, how do I look really good in front of my peers? And then rewards of the hunt is like money. And I think the best way to incentivize additional word of mouth is when you align your program with whatever reward is most relevant to your user. So like Y Combinator does this really well. They don't pay anyone to refer Y Combinator. There's like a leaderboard. You're going to be at the top of the YC leaderboard and be like, I was the number one referral person into YC. It's like a very heavy system on rewards, rewards of the tribe. Like, Robinhood will give you Robinhood stock. They'll do it very relevant to whatever the product is. So I wish what I could have done to do this would have been give away lab tests. But I think that for stuff like this, the things that I could execute on is rewards of the tribe. So I wouldn't underestimate your ability to drive additional word of mouth by making people look good in front of their peers. But then, yeah, what's really interesting is if you group together, like how people heard about us for like referrals and word of mouth, the chart of that is exactly the same. If you layer that on top of our like paid acquisition. Same graph. We would drive 100 users through Google or Facebook ads, and then 30 of those paid people would refer their friends. I think that is the other thing that people very often miss with their demand gen efforts is they'll be like, oh, damn it. This was like breakeven. Why am I wasting my time with this? This is barely making money. Maybe I'm even losing money.

Breakeven is good.

20%. Yeah. Yeah.

It's like, shit.

I think it's great if you're able to scale positive, like freaking do that all day long. But even if you're just breaking even, sometimes you're just pushing the boulder up the hill. So if you can drive demand gen like that, I've seen so many companies go into this death spiral where they're spending money on ads, their organic is good, their attribution is like a break-even, and then some— I'm gonna make fun of CFOs for a second, but some CFO comes in and they're like, ah, why are we spending money here? We should cut that. So then they cut that piece and then the organic disappears with the paid. So I think that's a good insight. Be very careful as you reduce your spend, like your attribution is from organic is probably partially, not partially, it is influenced by the paid as well. So we built our whole strategy around that honestly. Like we look at acquisition as best we can channel by channel, but then we would only look at ROI on a blended basis. So we would be like, this is the total blended ROI. So we'd use that for ROI calculations. And then channel by channel, we would just look at it comparatively. So like this channel versus this channel, like that's how they perform. But yeah, the graphs of like organic and word of mouth versus like paid is just literally clones of each other. If you like put them on top of each other, it's insane.

Yeah, there are a lot of— we can wrap up here. There are a lot of marketing death spirals that are happening. The one that, the one that I see a lot that is underdiscussed because it's hard to see from the outside, for what it's worth to folks, is the one that's happening when folks are under stress today. What a lot of SaaS B2B people are doing is putting 100% of their marketing spend into enterprise. They're looking at their base, the SMBs churn, the sales team wants to close bigger and bigger deals. There's 120% NRR in the enterprise, there's 80% in the SMB, and I've got to make a choice in marketing. And I can list you a lot, a lot of names, including multiple public companies who I've talked to their CEOs and they've cut 100% of their SMB spend. And it's one of these things that on a short-term spreadsheet sort of makes sense, but it also creates this death spiral if you under— if you don't invest in half your customer base, right? And your biggest— often your biggest champions are the armies of small guys, right? And when you cut that to zero and you only have $6 million champions, it's tough. But I see I'd say I'd see this at 80% of even multiple public companies that have seen growth slows. Okay, we're like, my budget's cut in half, I'm putting it all on the 7-figure deals.

Yeah, it's kind of like angel checks too, right? Like sometimes like your best angels are just like the small little 5K checks. Um, yeah, I 100%, um, I think especially with like marketing and sales because like quote unquote growth leadership roles have such high turnover. If you don't get inserted at the start, you don't have historical context as well. So like you can get so much, so much of like, how does this perform? Like context in someone's head. And then if you like get put in into the middle, like you, it's so hard to understand what is causing what. And then yeah, you, you start cutting certain things without understanding like the, the beginning of lifecycle to end of lifecycle. And you can end up making very bad decisions. And then sometimes those decisions take a long time to play out. What you're just saying is it takes a while for a mid-tier, like an SMB to whatever mid-market, grow into enterprise. So that is a decision that plays out not over quarters, but over years. And then you're 3 to 4 years down the line, be like, why did my enterprise growth stop? And it's like, well, you stopped investing in mid-market and SMB. Bees.

Yeah. Or why did my net— or you— what's happening with a lot of folks that have done this a couple years down the road, why did my net new customer account drop? I was able to push some up, but if I stopped investing at my bottom of my pyramid, um, there's no one to harvest 2 to 3 years out. No one grew into these bigger accounts. I see that a lot of folks now at 9 figures in revenue is— now we can break their— the numbers the last few years look good on the top line because of high NRR, but their new customer account slowed and slowed, and there's a bunch of even public companies where their net new customer count is now zero. Like, it's, it's NRR or nothing. And that's, that's when you don't, uh, it's a tough one. But I love your— we could talk for— I love your, your point is really good for founders about new marketers coming in, not having the context or understanding of the life cycle. It may even be worse that a media— anyone but the best marketers also come in and only want to do what they did at their last company. I did this amazing content thing with experts, or I did this amazing thing on YouTube, and they don't like events, and so they dump the events, or they don't believe in the long tail. And I was literally talking the other day with the CMO that I've known for years. I do love her. She's, she's great. But I asked her why they were doing— and she just took a new role, and I asked her why they were doing something that I knew was like, okay, like I knew it wasn't like great, but I knew it wasn't a bad idea. I said, why do you do do it? And I thought the answer would be, well, I want to do it better, I want to tweak it. She's like, oh, that was the person before me, we're getting rid of that. I'm like, I didn't say it was— it didn't— I didn't say it was ROI negative. I was just curious. But she's just gonna— doesn't have the context, doesn't know why it works, didn't believe in it. And immediately this initiative for 2 years is going to be dead in 30 days, right?

Uh, yeah, no, that's scary.

Common.

It's super common. Yeah, it's so easy to fall into that trap.

Anyhow, thanks for all the time. I know we ran over. I don't know if we have anything else, but appreciate everyone and we'll edit this and put it on the pod and all of our YouTubes and all that kind of stuff. And see everybody at SaaStr Annual, September 10th through 12th, SFA area. Thanks everybody.

Including Kobi. Kobi will be there to— we didn't get a ton of questions, so Thank you, Jason, for the commentary. And Koby will be back to talk about this at Annual. So make sure that you're there so you can ask his questions for you in person too. But thanks, Koby. We'll talk to you soon. See everyone.

Thank you, everybody.

Thanks, Taylor.

Thanks, Jason.

Bye. Bye, friends.