Stop Managing Talent and Start Building Trust

Foreign. Let's be honest, most teams don't fail because they lack talent. They fail because they lack trust. And no new platform, KPI or off site is going to fix that. But trust us, psychological safety does. Real appreciation does. Welcome back to Chats with Jason. I'm your host, Jason S. Bradshaw and today we're joined by someone who spent 20, 25 years helping the world's best turn talent into true team performance. Mike Robbins is a five time author. Bring your whole self to work and we're all in this together. Amongst some of his books, keynote speaker trusted by brands like Google, Microsoft, pixarbnb, the NBA and more. From the baseball diamond to the boardroom, Mike translates high performance habits into practical plays leaders can use today. Build trust fast, raise standards without fear, and turn appreciation into results. This episode is for leaders who want fewer silos, better conversations, and teams that actually want to win together. Mike Robbins, welcome to Chats with Jason.

Well Jason, thanks for having me on. I see you and I shopped at the same store to get our shirts, so I think we're good to go. Anyone who's watching the video of this will see that. I'm happy to be here, man. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, absolutely. We both go to that Navy polo store and really appreciate your time today. I know what it takes to get this scheduled. So if leaders believe just one thing about trust, that would make everything else easier. What would that one thing be?

Well, I think two things popped into my head so I'll just say them both. One is that trust is hard and trust is probably the most important aspect of a high performing team.

So why is it hard?

Because humans are complicated. Because life is messy. Because the nature of work today is 100 miles an hour. I was talking to the CEO of one of our clients earlier today and he said part of why I think these days we're often looking for people who have the answer is because things are so complicated. We just don't have a lot of answers. So we're often looking to whether it's ChatGPT or some smart person we know or some leader to just tell us what to do. And so I think trust is like even 30, 40, 50 years ago when life was maybe less complicated, trust was hard because of the nature of human dynamics and relationships. But I think all the added layers of how we work, the pace, the geography and all of it today make it even more complicated, makes a lot of sense.

So I'm wondering, was there a specific moment in your career where you shifted from thinking about Talent first, to trust first.

Well, you know, my background. You alluded to it, Jason, in my introduction, is I came from the sports world, so I played baseball all growing up and got to play in college at Stanford University and then got to play professionally with the Kansas City Royals before I got injured. And even in those days, I mean, I was young, you know, I started playing baseball when I was 7. I got hurt when I was 23. I finally retired after a series of surgeries on my pitching arm at 25. I noticed by the time I got to college and was playing professionally, the talent level was really high. And, like, the further along I went, the better the players were in terms of physical ability. But it wasn't always the teams with the best players that perform the best. And I started again. I couldn't articulate what it was. We called it chemistry. We didn't even know what it was, but you felt it. And it wasn't just this warm, fuzzy thing. It was like we played better. And again, I was so young and relatively naive to the way the world worked. But when I got my first job in the late 90s working for an Internet company in San Francisco, I realized, oh, that whole team chemistry thing, that's not a sports thing, that's a human thing. And again, it was like, weird and hard to describe, but it's like, oh, and people care about each other and have each other's backs, and ultimately, when they trust each other, it doesn't just feel good. And it does feel good. There's something that happens that allows people to perform. And then, you know, a couple years working for a couple different tech companies in the late 90s got me so curious. Like, that's what ultimately started me on the path. And I started my consulting business 25 years ago, Jason. And I don't know that there was a specific moment, but over time, it just kept getting reinforced and reinforced and reinforced. That, like, trust and all of the human dynamics that go into performance is more important than talent. And again, we want to have really smart, talented people, but everybody has been around a group of smart, talented people who didn't like each other, didn't trust each other, and didn't perform well together. And it's clearly not because they didn't have talent.

So I've been in a situation, obviously I'm not going to name names, but I've been in a situation where I had a really close, trusted working relationship with a fellow executive, and then a team member brings to me a piece of information that I validate and Completely destroys the trust that I had in that individual. And we never regained the working relationship we had. I'm wondering, what can a leader who has broken someone's trust, whether it be a peer or a team member, what. What's the first thing that they can do to start repairing that trust?

I mean, look, I think trust gets broken and repaired all the time. If we just think about all relationships and some situations, like the example you're bringing up, I mean, sometimes it can be something that's pretty egregious. And there are times in life, whether it's us or another person, trust gets broken and violated to the point where beyond repair. Most of the time, though, that's not the case. And so if we've broken someone else's trust or we've done something, whether we meant to or not, or whether it was misconstrued, we got to address it, right? We got to go and deal with it directly. Like a mentor of mine years ago said to me, jason, what stands between you and the kind of relationships you really want to have with people is usually a 10 minute sweaty palm conversation you're too afraid to have. So we got to go have the sweaty palm conversation. And maybe it's a misunderstanding. It's important that we apologize or make amends for something that we did or didn't do or withheld or hoped nobody would find out again. Usually we're not like manipulatively lying to people, but sometimes in life we don't want people to find out, or we screw something up and we hope maybe they won't notice, or maybe I can clean it up before it becomes a thing. And then it becomes a thing and it's like, oops, I gotta deal with this. I gotta go own up to this. A lot of times it really is a miscommunication because we're moving so fast and the left hand doesn't know what the right hand's doing. Or someone's in India and someone's in Australia and someone's in England and Someone's in the U.S. but I think the primary thing that we can do when trust gets broken is go and address it directly and ideally own up to as much as we possibly can own up to to start to rebuild the trust.

Yeah, that makes sense to me. So I'm wondering if you can describe for the audience. You talk about psychological safety a lot in your work. I'm wondering if you can describe to the audience what you mean by psychological safety.

Well, I like to keep it really simple and think of like trust is a one to one phenomenon. So you and I can have trust. Trust can get broken as we were just talking about. It can get repaired, but it's do I trust you? Do you trust me? Psychological safety is more group trust. Like is the group safe? For what? For risk taking, for speaking up, for disagreeing, for challenging each other, for even failing. When we're on a psychologically safe team, it doesn't mean that everybody's best friends. It doesn't even mean that every single person on the team trusts every single other person on the team 100%. It means that there's a level of safety within the group that we know we're not going to get shamed, we're not going to get ridiculed, we're not going to get metaphorically sort of kicked out of the group simply because we made a mistake or we had a difference of opinion or, you know, we failed. And that's why it can be challenging. Because even leaders, even the senior Most leaders, the CEOs and the C suite leaders that I work with, you can't by yourself dictate the psychological safety of the team. You have a big influence if you're the leader, probably the most influence on any particular team, all the way down to, you know, a manager who's managing individual contributors. But it requires something from everybody, a level of willingness for people to lean in and engage and operate with authenticity if we're actually going to create that sense of group trust amongst us.

So what would be the four behaviors, the vital 20% of behaviors that drive the majority of psychological safety?

And I quote, I mean the first thing is authenticity. And I define authenticity as honesty without self righteousness and with vulnerability. So being able to operate with that level of authenticity, it doesn't mean 100% transparent, it doesn't mean we have to tell everyone everything. But it does mean we have enough self awareness to realize, can I be honest without judging anyone who disagrees with me or thinking that I'm right and everyone else is wrong and do I have the ability to be vulnerable? And then related to that is, you know, admitting when we make mistakes, admitting when we're wrong, admitting when we regret something that we've done or said, you know, as we were talking earlier about sort of making amends or owning up to things when trust has gotten broken. A third behavior that's really important to create psychological safety is to ask for help. So most of us are really good at helping others, but many of us have a hard time asking for help because we Think it's weak or we're afraid we'll get rejected or judged, which, you know, all of which can happen. But when we ask for help, we show a certain amount of courage and vulnerability. We get some help and we model it for others. And then the fourth thing that's essential for psychological safety is that people talk to each other, not about each other. And that goes back to that sweaty palm conversation thing. Because if you and I, Jason, go out to lunch and talk about Susie or, you know, John or whatever, but we don't talk to Susie and John about the thing, and then we're just gossiping about them and that breaks down the psychological safety within the team. If I've got an issue with Susie, even if I'm scared to bring it up to her and I don't want to cause a bigger problem, being able to talk to her directly is both a sign that the team is psychologically safe enough and that she and I have enough trust. But it's also a way of reinforcing. You know, I often say great teams talk to each other, not about each other, but that's easier said than done.

So paint picture for me. I'm a new leader, a new executive. I want to create a psychologically safe environment for my team. You've shared four behaviors that are important. One of those being to ask for help as a leader. Am I meant to role model that? Am I meant to ask for help as well and not have all the answers like many people expect leaders to have?

Yeah, I think being able to ask for help is super important. Just imagine the scenario you're saying, so it's a new leader, either newly hired or newly promoted or brought over from another department or division. Okay, so now I have this team. I've got to figure out how do I create a sense of psychological safety within the team. Now look, I mean, there's a lot of factors. How well do I know the people, how well do they know me, what's been going on? But if I were coaching a new leader, as I often do, specifically, the first thing that I would encourage he or she to do is sit down with everybody on the team, one on one to begin with. So just some level of connecting, building that trust one on one, as I like to say, lowering the waterline on the iceberg a bit so you're sharing a little more about yourself, like get to know people human to human as best as you can. You can't magically have a 10 year long relationship with someone that you're meeting newly but there are ways to accelerate trust and connection in one on one conversations just by asking and answering a few simple questions, you know.

So just on that you said just by asking a few simple questions in a one on one. So what's one question that every leader should ask in a one on one with their team members?

I mean, I love the, like, how you doing? Zero to ten. As simple as that one is because then if they say I'm an eight, you say, great, why are you an eight? Right. If they say I'm a two, okay, what's going on? So it's kind of a loaded question in a way, but it opens up on a scale from zero. Like you're totally stressed out and miserable, you need a vacation, you want to quit tomorrow, to 10, you're like the happiest and most fulfilled you've ever been. Where would you say you are right now, today? No judgment, I'm just curious. And then they respond. And then the follow up question to that, whether it's 2 or 5 or 9, is a then deeper conversation into how they're actually doing. Because part of the one on one is yeah, you got to connect with them, you got to hold them accountable for the things they got to be working on. But you're trying to figure out first and foremost figure out where are they at. And then you can even start by answering that yourself. I'm also a big believer in if we ask questions of other people, particularly as leaders and bosses and managers, it's like you put them on the spot. If you start by answering the question first, you just say, hi, today I'm a three and here's why. And again, now it's like, okay, now we're having kind of a weird but interesting conversation that leads us in to get to the content, if you will, of the discussion. And there are some managers that I work with and I coach again, are so result focused and so practical and so action oriented and all of this bias for action, which I love, and I'm that way myself. But it's like we got to go slow so we can go fast. Especially in this hybrid working, connecting with people on Zoom or Slack or not in person with each other as much. Sometimes a lot of time in a one on one actually ends up being more about human connection and, and less about practical functional things, depending on what's going on, you know. But back to the scenario that we were talking about with the new leader in the team. If you're meeting one on one initially, you can even ask some questions about like, hey, what could I do? Again, the new leader coming into a team that's already established, what can I do that you think could help enhance trust and psychological safety on this team? And what can I do that might break that down? What do I need to know? Where are some of the landmines that I need to know about so I don't step on them? I'm going to be myself, but like deferring to the team. I think a lot of times new leaders come in and think, like, I have to have all the answers, I'm going to fix everything that's wrong here. But in so doing, they end up upsetting and disrespecting the people who've been around. Like, hey, it hasn't been great, but we've actually been getting some stuff done. So you want to find out what things are working in addition to focusing on where things might be broken?

Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So if you had a senior executive say to you, this psychological safety stuff, it's just a pile of fluff. It doesn't have any commercial outcome. Why should I invest a dollar in it? What would you say to them?

Look, my first response when I do hear that, sometimes it's like, I hear you. I try not to answer questions with questions. But what I will usually do when someone says like, why is this important? Or who cares? Or what's the value of this? My response is usually, tell me about the best team you've ever been on and what made that team so great. And Jason, I've asked this question. It doesn't matter where I am in the world. It doesn't matter if it's a tech company or a healthcare company or a nonprofit or a school. The answers are pretty similar. It's some version of, you know, they start talking again. Even the most result oriented or technically focused person will start telling me about some emotional experience of trust, of connection. They may not use those words, but they'll say, you know, we believed in what we were doing, or people were really passionate or everyone was really bought in, or the vision was clear, you know, and it usually comes down to some sort of softer, squishier aspect of like, okay, this isn't really about talent. This isn't really about execution. This isn't really about even the technology or the product or the service. This is about the humans to doing it together. Right? And what I then tried to explain is like, that's what we're talking about here is creating an environment so the humans can connect and communicate and collaborate as best as possible so they can perform at the highest level. There's a bunch of research out there, but it was a decade ago now that Google did their big project Aristotle study. I was doing a lot of work with Google at the time. I didn't even really know what psychological safety was. But they spent three years studying and they came back with all these findings and this is what the key components of high performing teams based on three years of U.S. crunching all the numbers and bringing in all these behavioral scientists and doing all this work. And they said the number one thing that drives performance of teams more than anything else is psychological safety. And I was working with Karen May, who was the head of learning and development at Google at the time and I was like, what the heck is psychological safety? And she said, well there's a professor at Harvard Business School named Amy Edmondson and a bunch of other really smart and this is what it is. And I was like, oh, it's group trust. And at that point it became oh, like if a team has that, it's not a guarantee that they're going to succeed. It's just that's sort of the starting point, then they can really succeed. And if they don't? Because that's the other question that I'll often ask if I'm talking to someone who's a bit skeptical. I'll say tell me about the worst team you were ever on or one of the worst, what made that team so terrible? And they'll immediately start talking about again, usually not terrible, stupid people. They'll tell me about people who didn't trust each other or people who weren't being honest with each other or some lack of trust or safety or I couldn't speak up or I was scared or I had to watch my back. And that's not again usually a function of the people on the team weren't smart or talented or high performers. It was just the dynamic was such that people didn't feel safe to be themselves, to speak up, to take risks, to be kind and compassionate to each other because they felt like that's going to get taken advantage of.

Makes a lot of sense. Let's switch things up a little bit. If you were writing a note to slip into a ten year world's lunchbox that they'd carry with them into leadership, what would it say and why?

That's a great question. The two things I think I would say is trust yourself and ask for help. Our daughters are now 17 and 19, but I think about them at 10 years old, I think about myself at 10 years old, you're just at that age, you're not a little kid anymore, but you're not quite a teenager that thinks you know everything. So there's an openness. But I think fast forward to a lot of leaders that I work with, whether they're new leaders or more senior leaders, especially these days, with so much going on and so much disruption and so much change and so much uncertainty, I think it's hard for a lot of people, myself included at times, to really trust ourselves, like listen to ourselves, trust our instincts. Not that we're right all the time, but just like, hey, look, something's got me here. I haven't been perfect, I've made mistakes, I've screwed things up. But here I am in this moment with this opportunity. But also simultaneously, I think both things can be true at the same time. We trust ourselves, but we can also ask for help. We don't have to know everything. We don't have to figure everything out on our own. And oftentimes there's way more wisdom in the group collectively or some people around us, either in our organization or outside of organization, who we trust and respect. That we can lean on them and learn from their wisdom.

Makes a lot of sense. The pandemic changed a lot. We hear that phrase more often than perhaps we should. And certainly conversations around hybrid working and remote working much more prevalent today than they used to be. The fact is, remote working always existed. Now it's more baked into how more organizations and bigger ones work. If I'm a leader of 100% remote team, what's a daily or a weekly habit that you think I should get into that will help foster high performance through creating trust and psychological safety.

I do think that there's a lot of data coming out now that's showing us that individuals really love remote work for just the life part of it, right? I can wear my sweatpants, I can walk the dog, I can pick up the kids, I don't have to commute all this stuff, right? And there's a real impact on both mental health and on team connection, collaboration, psychological safety, what we're talking about. So I think for anyone who's managing a team that's completely remote, especially really constantly being mindful of and curious about and creative about how do I as a leader stay connected and engaged with my team, and then how do I facilitate connection and engagement amongst the team? And again, there's not a one size fits all. Because the reality is, if it's a fully remote team. We could have people all over the world in different time zones. And it's very complicated to even get everyone on a zoom call all at once. Even if everybody's in the same time zone in the same geographic area, if there's no physical space to go to or no regular cadence for when we do get together, that's more challenging than, hey, we mostly work from home, but we're in the office one day a week or every quarter, we have a thing somewhere. You know, again, we have to map it to the real cadence of our work and also the real nature of the work and the personalities on the team. So again, as a leader, figuring out what do I do on a daily basis and a weekly basis and a monthly basis so I stay connected with my team again, even if we're all working in the same office in the same physical space. Like in the old days, I used to work with leaders or people who would tell me my boss never comes out of his office or I never see him or, you know what I mean? So again, it's not like that didn't exist before, but now there's more barriers to the connection. And there's very little in hybrid working or remote working specifically. There's very little if not any sort of unstructured time where we just bump into someone, where we just have an impromptu off the cuff conversation standing in the hallway or the parking lot or in the lunchroom or whatever. And I think what we've realized over the last several years since the pandemic is, oh, those things actually made a big difference and those things were important. So you can't recreate those if you're not together physically. But you can be creative about. Are there different ways or different touch points? I have one leader that I've been working with for a while, and he manages an almost exclusively remote team. They're very rarely together. And in addition to one on ones and zooms and whatnot, he's got a couple people on his team in particular, where they talk on the phone while they're walking. But they both just agreed to do that because then it felt a little more like, hey, look, one of the benefits of working from home and working remotely is that we're not all stuck in a room and we don't have to be in a windowless place with whiteboards. So what if we just did our meetings sometimes while we're walking? And that's a little thing, but all of a sudden it was something that started to work for them. And if not everybody, because some people are like, no, I want to be in front of my computer, I want to look at stuff, I want to write stuff down, I want to be in my workspace. So just kind of customizing it a bit for each individual and for yourself and being somewhat flexible with it so it doesn't stay stuck, you know.

Yeah. As a reflect on what you're saying, it reinforces me what I'm seeing. A lot of successful entrepreneurs that some of who I know watch this show that they have a small team doing seven figures plus in profit a year and they have 100% remote team, but they two or three times a year. Yeah. Purposely create a reason to bring the team together. And on the surface, if you put on just a purely accounting hat, you would go, well, why am I spending the money on the flights, the accommodation, etc. But the reality is, from what I've observed and what you're saying, that that's where the magic can be made. Because you create those connections, you create bonds, if you like, instead of using the word trust that carry you through those periods of remoteness and isolation that comes with being remote.

Absolutely. And I mean, look, I actually have a fully remote team, although a couple of our team members live pretty close. We don't have a physical space, but we get together on a regular Cadence Quarterly. We have our in person gathering. And I agree with you. Look, even if you've got a team of 7 or 10 or 12 and they're spread out and it is quite an expense to fly everyone to one location, it's super important to get people together. And again, you just have to figure out for yourself, for the team, like the balance point between there's the cost, the money and the time, but also then the benefit. And if the business has been around for a while, you can start to really look at and analyze. When we do it more often, what's the benefit? When we do it less often, what's the impact? And look, as the world continues to move faster and faster and faster in all of this great technology and, and all of the AI and everything else that we have, I really feel like human connection and in person time, it can be somewhat scarce and limited. That's okay. But it's super valuable and there's a premium to it. And I think again, the last six or seven years have really taught us that.

Yeah. Couldn't agree more. I'm wondering, I'm going into a new business as a new member of the team and I'm hosting my first meeting, what should I do to start laying the framework or the foundation, if you will, to a more trusting, a more psychologically safe environment without being the guy or the girl that comes in and says, hey, I'm the leader that's going to make you that you're going to trust and you're going to trust each other.

Look, it's so interesting because even back to your question, Jason, of the people go, why is all this psychological safety important? Or who cares? I do a lot of keynote speaking, but I also do a lot of coming in and facilitating off sites and senior leadership teams. And as I talk to, you know, the leader who's talking to me about coming in, they'll say something like, we're not going to do like trust falls or we're not going to do something drum circle. And my response is like, look, we're not going to hold hands and sing Kumbaya. But let's be really clear, if your team was psychologically safe enough that everyone could hold hands and sing Kumbaya, that would be a really good sign. But the thing that I say is, look, I'm going to do my best to not be cheesy or corny about anything. But there is an element. If you really want to get people to come together and you really want to break down some barriers, you do have to push people a little bit out of their comfort zone. You do have to be willing to invite people into conversations or exercises or little icebreaker type things that you're thoughtful about that you're effective with. And if you don't feel comfortable doing those things as a leader, either empower someone on your team to do it or hire an external person who does that for a living to really bring them in. Because those things matter, right? And we're not going to just do them on our own. Like, I can go to the gym and work out, fine. But if I hire a trainer to help me work out, it's going to be better, right? But either way, it's important that I go and I have some kind of rhythm or routine or something to do. So again, you bring the team together and be thoughtful and mindful about not just what content do we want to address, what or what outcomes do we want, but how are we going to bring people together and really create a space for them to open up, to connect. I was in Bangalore, India last week with a sales leadership team. Oftentimes when I do these off sites, it's like I'm not there to have a bunch of slides and Teach a bunch of stuff. Even though I could, I'm really there more to facilitate a conversation, to try to get them to open up in a real way, in a safe way with each other so that they can build more connection and more psychological safety. And this isn't a team that like doesn't know each other or coming together newly. This is a team, like a lot of teams, global lot going on, a lot of pressure, a lot of things happening, a lot of moving parts. It's a fast growing startup, they're doing well, but they don't have a lot of time like most teams to really slow down, take a breath, talk about what's working as well as what's not working. And like in four hours we were able to really have a pretty meaningful conversation where they walked away feeling like, hey, I feel a little less burdened, I feel a little more connected to my teammates and a little more inspired to go back out and do the work. Even though we're all going to get on airplanes and fly in our own separate directions and we may not see each other for a while.

Yeah, makes a lot of sense. I'm wondering, as we come to the top of the show, is there one message or three key actions or perhaps both that you wish someone would start doing as soon as they finish listening to the show, or a message that they want to carry through into the way that they generate this environment where top performers can become a high performing group?

Well, you know, one thing that we kind of alluded to it, or I alluded to it earlier about sort of asking for help, another thing that maybe people can specifically do is ask for feedback. And I know it sounds simple on the one hand, but it's a courageous thing to do, it's a vulnerable thing to do. And one of my favorite ways to ask for feedback is kind of a cliche, a corny thing that people have heard about, but it's asking those three questions like, what can I start doing, what can I stop doing, what can I continue doing? But when we ask those questions of the people on our team, not only do we get feedback, we let them know we're open to and interested in their feedback and we model it. And we can potentially then encourage them to ask us those questions in response. And we can do that one on one. Absolutely. When the team gets really strong enough and psychologically safe enough, or as a way to instigate more of that safety and connection amongst the team. I've even seen it done where the team does that openly with each other. So, like, the leader starts and gets feedback from everybody, and then we go around and everybody in the group is willing to ask the rest of the team, what can I start, what can I stop, what can I continue? Because what we're basically saying is I want to be the best version of myself so we can perform. And that's the real highest level of not only psychological safety of performance, is that I'm not protecting myself and my ego. So much so that I'm willing to actually let you give me feedback in service of me and us being the best we can possibly be.

Before I let you go, I just need to ask you one, follow up on what you just said or a key word that you said in your response. Ego. Yeah. How as a leader or as just an individual contributor in a team, do I let go of my ego so that I can build trust?

I think it's less about letting go of our egos. It's more about being aware of our egos. Right. Because as far as I can tell, I try to manage my ego as best as I can. It shows up in different ways, but the more aware I am of it, oh, there's my ego. Oh, there's my ego. Oh, there it is. It's not a terrible thing. It's just if I'm not aware of it, it can take over and become obnoxious or arrogant or demeaning or defensive or all those things. Right. I had a mentor years ago say to me, like, your ego's allowed on the bus. We just don't want to let him drive because we're going to need him. We're going to need to lean on him sometimes or ask for certain things in certain moments. But in general, if he's driving the bus, we're all in trouble because we're probably going to eventually crash and scare everybody along the way. So I think the more we can be aware of our egos and if we feel safe enough with the people around us, this is another place where our teammates, whether they're peers or the folks who report to us or even our own manager come in if we give people permission. Hey, can you do me a favor? Can you call it out if you see my ego taking over? Because I'm going to try to be aware, but sometimes I'm going to be oblivious. So I need you. You don't necessarily need to call me out in front of everyone, like, embarrass me, but pull me aside after or just check in with me because it's for all of us again. It's a lifelong journey, as far as I can tell.

What a fantastic way to wrap up the show. Mark, thanks for your time today.

Absolutely. Thanks for having me on.

All right, friends. That was a masterclass in turning talent into true performance. If this episode helped. Follow, subscribe and give us five stars on your favorite platform. But first and foremost, please share it with one leader who needs a nudge towards psychological safety without lowering standards. I'm Jason S. Bradshaw. And remember, clarity, confidence, and creativity. That's how you win. Because when you transform the experience, you transform your business and the world around you. I'll see you in the next episode of Chats with Jason.