088 Exploring The Role Of Ego In Accounting Firm Running

Oh, entrepreneurship. We don't talk enough about why we do the things that we do and the decisions that we make and how much ego plays in. I just read a book that was really, really good that opened my eyes to just how many ways that ego factors into the decisions that we make. And I think the more aware you.

Are of it and even start thinking about, like, how you can hack ego.

In positive ways to motivate you to.

Make you do the right things.

I think the more aware of it you are, the better, the more it can be a tool. So come on in. Oh, let's talk ego.

Flashback. All the way back to the very.

First episode of this podcast. It was something like who Are youe Working For? And it was about how I think oftentimes we go through life trying to prove a. A point to somebody that couldn't care less about you. And so many of our adult years are grounded in your high school experience and that person that wronged you and.

Maybe that early career experience where you're.

Like, yeah, no, no, now I'm going to show them. And then you finally do, you climb that mountain and you get to the.

Top and you're like, hey, where'd they go? Why aren't they impressed?

And you realized all along the way.

That they didn't give a hoot about.

You, but you just wasted a decade.

Of your life trying to prove some point. Now what?

And that's me speaking from experience, but also just trying to be more mindful of why I do the things that I do and why I feel pressure to do certain things. And this is super relevant to business ownership, where you have given up the trappings of. Of modern man and the 8 to 5 for ultimate freedom. And then you find that ultimate freedom can in many ways be even more enslaving than that cubicle was.

But it's all self inflicted.

And it often stems from these, I don't know, feelings that we need to be successful and prove a point or make more money than your sibling or just get dad to tell you why, you know? But ever since then, that's. That's something I've thought about quite a bit. And I try to always be mindful of when you have this very fortunate kind of like, situation that we have where you have total freedom and flexibility to do anything.

How do you decide what to do? And equally important, what are the things.

Happening in your brain that are leading you to deciding what the right and wrong things are to do? So I just read a book, it's called the Elephant and the Brain by Robin Hanson and Kevin Simler. And. And the whole idea is just to make you more aware of the decisions that you make and how sometimes your animal brain is kind of inserting things into those decisions that you may not realize. And it's not, like, inherently necessarily a bad thing.

I think it's only bad if you're.

Not aware of it and what's happening. So the whole the naming the elephant and the brain kind of stems from how we like to think that our animal brains are totally divorced from, you know, what you see in chimps and in other types of animals and how they behave. And we are somehow this, you know, totally separate higher being, when in reality we do a lot of the same things. It's just masked by kind of cultural norms and signaling. And at the end of the day, like, we're more or less the same, but kind of the. The other side of that name is. It's like the elephant in the room, the elephant in the brain. What are those things that we need to be aware of and how do they impact how we go through our lives, both personally and professionally? A lot of really, like, interesting stuff in there. It talks about, like, groups of chimps. A chimp will clean another chimp not.

Because the chimp is dirty, but because.

It ultimately wants it to clean it. It wants a cleaning buddy. It does it for, like, political capital. And they will even continue cleaning fellow chimps whether those chimps are dirty or not.

So while there's like a core, like.

Very practical, I can't reach the middle of my back component to it. The majority of it is kind of that jockeying for position. But, like, framing this in kind of the human lens, you'll say you did it because you couldn't reach the middle of your back or you needed help. Like, we like. There's always a framing that, like, slots nicely into the social norm when behind the scenes, there's actually, you know, a lot more happening there. And like, examples of this just in general for people, like, there's no practical reason for why you need a $500,000 Porsche or a mansion that is 15,000 square feet for you and your two tiny children. But it's a thing that humans do not from a place of need or any sort of rational. Like, there is no way to rationalize that. There is no, like, ROI that makes that worthwhile. We buy things to signal this prestige and success and to reinforce how we want to really feel about ourselves. And so, like, you know, another example is, like, if you. If Kind of eco consciousness really resonates with you. You may go out and you may go buy a much more expensive alternative version of a thing because it is more eco conscious. And that then kind of validates your own sort of self view in a more public way. They did a study where they gave folks basically, you know, an eco friendly way to do something and a non eco friendly way to do something and then they gave you private ways and public ways to do that. And when that buying decision was, you know, in a more through kind of a more public lens, people universally were more likely to lean towards the eco conscious option. And it plays into an interesting wrinkle in all of this. The book didn't really get into like super deep, but I think it's really interesting to think about how oftentimes these sort of animal brain things may lead to more positive outcomes. Talk about like EPA regulations and like when the Obama administration put down like all the automakers need to hit this kind of mile per gallon threshold and people ended up kind of finding ways to game the system. Stuff like carbon credits. How Tesla really early days financed their company by selling carbon credits to other auto companies, was that, did that miss the point? Did they game the system or did it actually in the end like on a whole get you to a better place that you wouldn't have gotten to and had you not in this case had those regulations, but in kind of the elephant in the brain case is that then actually a positive that you are leaning into those positive societal norms. And that's maybe kind of the underlying requirement is that that norm actually is a good for society. But these sort of the lenses that we make these decisions through are crafted by the communities with which we identify. And so obviously you've got like here human race, but then within that you have a lot of much smaller bubbles. Some of those really positive, some of those obviously really negative. And the book's really about how we kind of craft these very elaborate rationalizations to justify decisions that are oftentimes kind of ego based. And we can create really convincing arguments without even realizing it for like why we go about doing things that the way that we do it. And I think there's a lot of really practical examples within what we do where this stuff comes up, where ultimately does it lead to a positive or not? Like that's probably a little more case by case. But for example, having an office where people work and the resistance to remote work. I think there's probably a very real ego angle to this where the loss of maybe the feeling of power, of having those people and those other humans in proximity and having a big impressive office and all of these things where maybe there actually are some positives to it, maybe it adds legitimacy to your business, maybe there's certain clients that'll be impressed by it. But I think there's also probably a very human element of the people making those decisions may draw some satisfaction, enjoyment, whatever you want to call it, by the proximity of those kind of human beings that they oversee.

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Notes to learn more stuff like going and speaking at conferences, being a presenter on a webinar or just at even a local sort of thing. One thing that I don't, I don't think is talked about enough in our industry is just how paltry the speaking fees are at conferences and how a lot of the conferences have positioned themselves as to kind of say you should be thankful for the opportunity to get up on our stage because the opportunities and the visibility that comes from it is worthwhile. Like we shouldn't really be paying you anything. And there's some conferences that don't pay anything. But like in most cases the fee for the level of people that they want, like the fee is really a bummer. And it's actually a reason why a lot of conferences these days that content is not all that compelling and, and why you often see a huge step from the keynote stage type content to the more like educational breakout session type content. You know, the example of performers performing for free at the super bowl. The idea that the exposure is worth it, like just to be there. I think people are more willing than they would otherwise be to do this sort of thing because it like reality is, it scratches an itch like this, this feeling of ego, of importance, of being able to stand up in front of other people and then be impressed by what you have to share. And the more question is, is that a good thing or bad thing? I think there's probably ways to game that if it ultimately is, it works in the favor of you and of your business. There's definitely situations where, you know, the reason that I do talks at conferences and go on webinars and stuff like that is, is ultimately there's this very like inherent narcissism in just what my business is now, where my job is really to kind of just be visible because what I do, like the main core of my business is content production. And as more people getting introduced to that and like the way that I would rather frame that is that my job is now just generally be helpful to people that work in small accounting firms. And the way you grow, that is just being out there more and more, people discovering your stuff and hopefully getting value from it. And in my case, if I get this huge ego boost from doing talks and going on conference stages and getting in front of a bunch of people and all that, if I get a huge ego boost from that, is that a bad thing? Because it actually is like, kind of serving the ends of kind of my, you know, my business and how my business grows for me. I don't know that it is a bad thing. It's just something to always be aware of. Right. Because, you know, a good example is, let's say somebody wants to pull me into. I mean, I get. I've got speaking requests from the most random private industry, like, little niche things where they're like, man, we love how you talk about AI. Do you want to come do this? And it has absolutely nothing to do with accounting. And there's nobody that's going to be in that audience who would even remotely relate to the other content that I create if I got such a rise out of doing that stuff, that I then filled my calendar with other talks that, like, weren't relatable to kind of my core business and the people that I actually want to get in front of, that's probably not a good thing. That's, you know, ego taking control. And so there are a lot of good reasons to take those talks. And oftentimes teaching is the best way to kind of, you know, reinforce in yourself an understanding of that topic. And in the past for me, teaching has been a great forcing function to do that to get me to follow through and develop a deep understanding of that thing so that I can speak confidently about it. But oftentimes there's a difference between a decision being good for you and good for someone else. And oftentimes somebody will come to you with a really compelling proposal. That's very flattering. And the fact that it is flattering makes us much more likely to see say yes when that may not be the best thing for you. And this has honestly been a real challenge for me as I'm just have been very visible. And so I'm privy to a lot of really cool opportunities where a couple years ago I couldn't have even ever imagined being invited to do this thing. I have to cut through what is me being flattered and me maybe even being a fan of the people involved versus is this actually a good thing? For me, is it a good thing for my business, either in a direct way or maybe even in a roundabout way, and how you build your network and the connections that you make and that sort of thing. This has been really hard for me, honestly.

It is.

It's still hard for me. Probably a bigger thing for me personally than like some rise of like an ego boost, you know, speaking in front of people is how, like, flattery impacts my decision making. The notion that, like, I'm genuinely appreciative of the fact that they would think of me and that they would kind of build this session for me or thing around me, and that leads me to say yes when it may not be in my best interest to actually do that. Conference talks, I think, are a great example here. And the whole notion of building hollow rationalizations to justify your decisions, like, I think that's a really helpful framing from the book, where we just need to be really aware. Are the decisions that we're making for the best interest of yourself, for your business, or are they leaning into some. Something else that's going on in your brain, like this desire to just build a bigger team or this desire to have the same level of quote, unquote, success or growth as somebody else that you see online or somebody that you look up to or some person in your past who reached some milestone and now you have to reach a higher milestone. We stack up these justifications in order to kind of convince ourself why we make these decisions when in the moment. I think there's. There's a lot of things that we're often blind to that are driving those decisions. There's a quote from the movie Her. Yep, I'm quoting the movie Her. I don't know if it originated there's from somebody else, but there's a quote that the past is just a story that we tell ourselves. And that is such a good. Like that is. That's so real. We construct this reality that is convenient for us and minimizes complex things and kind of tricks us into how we want to feel about ourselves. Oftentimes they talk about, you know, quote, unquote, knowing your elephants. So, you know, if you're going to go out and you're going to sponsor a little League team, what are all of the decisions that go into that? Or maybe more relevant, sponsor an accounting conference. The rationalization is, oh, visibility and ultimately, you know, drives new leads and that sort of thing. But there's also an element of, like, is this gonna be impressive? The other people that run software companies in My space. Like, will they be impressed by the tier of our sponsorship? I can tell you on the other side, when it comes to the people who are running events and sponsorships and stuff like that, they're absolutely leaning into those elephants to, like, put those out as a way for people to signal. I mean, that's the reason that Prada exists. That's the reason that Gucci exists. Like, there are definitely companies built around those elephants and even accounting firms that can be built the same way around somebody that wants this different level of service or this more impressive version of the thing that they have had in the past. Was it like a court case or something like that? There was somebody that had like a marble conference table in their private jet or this. I've got like a seed of a memory here. And it was like, is this. This marble table actually necessary? And the argument was for their clientele, like, they were. They needed that sort of thing to be impressed. Like, it was something that was impressive to them. These things are kind of all around us. And what's interesting to me is like, digging into what are the traps and then what are the ways to, like, game these elephants for good? Because there's definitely ways you can game them for bad. But how do we game these things for good? Some excerpts from the book that I really liked. Pressure test and scrutinize rationalizations used to justify choices. Look for multiple motives that may be cloaked and seemingly convincing. Rationale. Consciously aim to make decisions focused on creating client value, business value, roi, rather than your ego or status. Put the benefit of the business over your own. But also recognize healthy motivations. Gains in status and credibility can drive real achievement. Bonding with clients builds culture, even though that's kind of like a, you know, something that feels kind of political. Use all motivations carefully. A YouTuber that I really enjoy, Ali Abdaal. He's got a book coming out around that he's been working on for several years around productivity. And the whole. The whole idea is, how can you make productivity fun? There's a lot of brute force approaches to productivity that will work for a time. You know, motivation. Motivation works for a time, but it's ultimately fleeting. It goes away. And some people can hang onto that longer than other people. But what is the sustainable version of that? It is finding a way to do something that you enjoy and that feeds into the vision you want to have of yourself. So how do we identify if you want to be somebody that is healthy? The better approach is to have this kind of deep sense of identity. That you are a healthy person that's more likely to lead to behaviors and habits that will ultimately make you a healthy person than this program. You know, this 12 week program that will require a whole bunch of this like newfound motivation to go out and do this thing.

Gang this episode is sponsored in part by Firm 360. 360 degrees Let me tell you about Joy. Joy's been using Firm 360 since September.

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My productivity has greatly increased with firm360. I have better overall visibility to what tasks my team is working on. Hey, be more like Joy. Do you have a 360 degree view of everything that's going on in your firm right now?

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Gang this episode is sponsored in part by Client Hub. Listen this week on Tales from the Hub, we've been talking about the importance of a platform that automates your firm's client requests. And recently we heard about how super smart accounting firm adopt a Client Hub. And their biggest productivity improvement has come from utilizing the Client Tasks feature. Client Hub has taken a novel approach.

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Or the link in the show notes. So I think we all have different drivers. Like, we have elephants that influence us in different ways. And being aware of those may give you a way to kind of hack your way into motivation and productivity. Like, just to be like, super, super vulnerable. I'm a third child. I'm the youngest child. My wife is a third child also. And so I'm the youngest. And so it's interesting seeing kind of how we were raised in our relationships to our siblings and our parents and how many similarities there are there. So you've got this sort of like, youngest kid thing. And I don't know that people ever totally grow out of that. I also think a ton about. I mean, like, just to zoom out. Like, three years ago I was an accountant. Five years ago I was preparing tax returns, and that was all that I had ever done. Like, most people just know me from doing content, but this is. Is all still really weird for me. And so there's this, you know, when this is your livelihood and this is all that you do, like, there's a lot of, like, kind of internal dialogue about, like, is this a really weird sort of, I don't know, unhealthy? Like, is there this, like, do I have this level of, you know, self obsession or something like that that normal people don't have and that's why they can't get on camera every day? Like, I don't ultimately believe that to a deep degree, but it's like, it's just one of those things that you're weighing in your head. And in my situation, like, like that youngest child thing where you are doing what you can for attention and that's somehow just like built into your brain. I now have a job where that is, like, all about attention. Like, and it is about getting out in front of more people and more people finding your content. And that's ultimately how your business grows. The nature of that business plugs in very well with probably how I am wired as, like a youngest child. And that's a very, I don't know, vulnerable, kind of scary thing to say out loud. But we all have those things that are probably inside us, and there's good versions of those things and bad versions of those things. I think a bad version of that thing is somebody wronged you in the past or you are like, trying to recover something or something like that where if you ultimately even got to that milestone, would you be any closer to it? Like, no. So I don't know. I feel like there's definitely ways to get this wrong and building a business as a form of therapy probably isn't the right thing to do. But I do think if you are aware of the elephants that you have, there are probably healthy ways to build a really fulfilling career for yourself. And like, I feel like me, like just to kind of frame this out. I feel super fulfilled in what I'm doing right now because I think our profession has a tremendous need for folks to see a different path forward in all of this. To hear from someone who thinks like they do. And then I like, honestly have the opportunity to kind of be a hub of everybody else's really good idea and like kind of a platform for highlighting those. Like, I mean, this whole premise of this pod is, you know, some really cool things that I learned from this book and then I am the platform to share those things. And then everybody's super appreciative of me when ultimately what I do is like, I'm a conduit for kind of the coolest things that I see other people doing. I feel really grateful for that and really fulfilled in being able to do this. But at its core, like, there is probably an element of what this is that is leaning really hard into the elephants that I have in my brain. So what are the things that you have, the ways that you are wired where given an opportunity to, I don't know, invest in yourself or a new opportunity for your business? Like, how do you marry those opportunities with your elephants and kind of hack your personal motivation and how you see your own identity to lean into to opportunities and a business that's really fulfilling for you. It's really interesting book, particularly the nuance around being aware of the elephants and how to like get them to work to your advantage. Right. I think when you, when you're the big boss and when you're making decisions and when you're the one putting pressure on yourself to make everything happen and decide what to do next, this stuff is like so center to the decisions that we make every day and I don't think we quite realize it. What do you think? Hopefully that sparked a couple ideas for you. That is all I got today.

See you tomorrow.