289 How Subscription Pricing Changes Accounting Firms

Okay, the case for subscription pricing in an accounting firm. There's situations where it works really well, other situations where it doesn't. And the most recent book of the sort of value pricing focused books we've gone through this week, it's called Time's up and it's just focused on subscriptions. So today we're running through the very best of subscriptions and also like the very worst of subscriptions where maybe I think they aren't suitable, where I disagree with a few points of the book. But also let's dig into like the awesome applications for them and the right way to price them because there's a whole bunch of different flavors of subscriptions out there. Come on in. What is the place of subscriptions and professional services businesses these days? It's been a fun week. We're kind of wrapping up today what has been four days of just value pricing discussion and then tomorrow running through a whole ton of questions people have been asking. I put out, I put out on social media as well, like what are folks blockers with value pricing? And tomorrow we're going to run through a whole bunch of that stuff. They follow some major themes. We'll kind of clump those together and think through what, which of these questions can be overcome which boil down to like personal blockers and which are totally legitimate. Where this kind of like doesn't maybe isn't particularly applicable to running small firms because I do think there's some aspects of it that that applies to. But today most of what we're talking about is from the book Time's Up Again link in the show notes. That's the most recent of the books that we've been talking about. Mainly focused on just how most things have trended towards subscriptions, but also gets into impact and affinity quite a bit. How people are increasingly making buying decisions based on how it aligns with their self concept, based on whether they feel like they fit in with this group. We're seeing, you know, an increasing amount of social activism through the corporate lens. Like they use the example of Patagonia pulling advertising spend from Facebook when it was revealed some bad stuff that Facebook was doing. Got more and more examples of that happening out there where that clean break between what is personal and my personal views versus what is corporate is, is increasingly being blurred. Now people are more than ever willing to put their bucks with a group that aligns with themselves and sort of their worldview. And that, that part of this book kind of took me by surprise because I don't, I didn't totally get my head around what the tie in was there to subscription besides it making people more likely to to come and buy your services and make them feel like they fit in with what you've built. But it is certainly something to be aware of. I think it's been driven even more by kind of social media and the tribalism that that has has created. What does it look like to build a firm that has a point of view, that even has opinions? I mean very, very small percentage of us will go as far as to say like beyond very holistic, high level sort of beliefs on the right way to approach entrepreneurship. Very few of us go as far as to say like this is what we think is right and this is what we think is wrong. And maybe we think about that a bit through the lens of hiring for culture and ensuring that the folks you bring into your team are a good fit. But I think you'll also be rewarded for more of that spilling into how you talk about what you do and how you talk about how you serve your clients. Because people that that jive with that, they will get excited about that these days to the same degree almost that they will get excited about solving tactical problems. Like it's it's really becoming a big deal in how people spend their Some good thoughts on that in the book. This podcast is not a replacement for reading these books. I just want to turn you on to some ideas but also highlight some of the areas where I'm like this. This part of it's a banger. This other aspect I got a little harder harder time with just through the context of running small accounting firms. Because that's what we talk about here. And this book isn't just for small firms. All right, some of the advantages of subscriptions as outlined in the book, I'll run through this list. Some are. Some of these are better than others. I'm going to run through this list and I'll tell you what my favorites are and the ones that as few I just straight up don't agree with. So benefits of subscriptions, predictable revenue and cash flow. You start on the 50 yard line every day, not the end zone. That meaning you're not progressing to the completion of a project. You are just like that engagement goes on indefinitely presumably as long as they're on the subscription. The focus is more on marketing and innovation than selling mere services. So once you've got them on a sub how do we improve and innovate and all that. Rather than tack on another service, you get paid automatically with Less financing and collection costs. Customer switching costs are higher. You're not selling services, but creating annuities with a lifetime value that far exceeds whatever you paid to acquire them. Collective knowledge of your customers is a competitive advantage that cannot be duplicated by your competition. Allows for one to one marketing. Creating bespoke transformations for customers. You're pricing the relationship, the lifetime value transformations, peace of mind, frictionless access and insurance with an E. By focusing on outcomes, you're living and working in alignment with what it means to be a professional. Taking responsibility for a result, not performing a series of tasks. It aligns the revenue model with what professionals say they care about the relationship. You can plan cash flow and capacity more effectively. You can move beyond merely solving problems for your customers and into helping them achieve possibilities and potential. The subscription model breaks down silos and firms because it molds the firm around the needs of the customer. The customer is at the center. Creating a true one firm model. It takes an actuarial approach to pricing. Recognizing the objective is to maximize profit across the portfolio of customers. Not each hour job or customer and last subscription businesses are more resilient to reception, recessions and pandemics. As we learned during COVID 19. There's some stuff in there I really like. Some stuff in there, admittedly I really don't like and don't agree with. So what were the bangers in that list? For me, I like more of the macro level business considerations. I like the notion that you're not selling services, but you're creating annuities in these client relationships that are now kind of ongoing and not ongoing from the standpoint that they'll probably come back next year. But the fact you're getting paid every single month and some of us don't want to put a client on a subscription because we're not delivering value all year round. But as we're trying to escape busy seasons and stuff like that, increasingly we're we're paring down that client list to probably weed out a lot of the low value once per year projects in favor of what something more ongoing looks like. So where most of us are trending is something that aligns itself better with subscriptions. I love the notion of pricing the relationship. One of the big objections we've been talking about on social media this week has been somebody comes to you and they want a very specific job done. Can you just pay my bills? Can you just do my payroll? Can you just do this quick little thing? And then value pricing nerd is like, well let me step back and ask you 50 questions so that I can find a way to change your life with this service. Sometimes that just doesn't make sense when it's something very small, very transparent, transactional. There is this notion that anything can be decommoditized. So you certainly could take payroll and turn it into, you know, gusto frames this as people advisory. Turn it into more of a, an HR advisory opportunity where you help them find better talent and stuff like that. Certainly bill pay could turn into like, you know, cash based advisory. And we did a lot of that in my firm. But there are situations when people want you to do little piecemeal things for them where you're not going to value price that thing. What's valuable to you is being able to zoom out and price the entire relationship. It's only really to me that at that scope, is it possible to like meaningfully value price what we do when it includes everything? Not when I do your tax return once a year and then send an email to a client at the end of the year to ask if they want me to do their 1099s. That's an exceptionally hard thing, to value price as opposed to zooming out and saying, if you just wanna be on the list, this is the price. And it's based on our perception of the value of the problems that we're solving for them. So I love the notion of pricing the relationship, but what it means is there's probably less room for the little ad hoc work, the little one off stuff that we know that we probably shouldn't be doing anyways, because that stuff doesn't really lend itself to value pricing. This episode is sponsored in part by teamup. Story time. Gather around. Sit in a circle, Jonathan. Happy team up customer. See if this story sounds, sounds relatable. Clients were beating down Jonathan's door. He was growing so quickly he couldn't keep up. The problem was he couldn't find anyone in the US at a salary that he could really afford. Then he had an experience that opened his eyes. He hired his first accountant in the Philippines. Couldn't believe how good she was. Not only does she do the work well, but she was fast. So he hired another. This time a senior accountant. He wanted to be in charge of quality assurance. He needed her to do things like set up special funding accounts and make sure equity accounts are correct. Things he struggled to get his US staff to do well. It went so well with the senior accountant, he hired another and then in a few months, another. Now, not only is client work getting done on time, he has room to grow. Good for you Jonathan. Here's a quote from Jonathan We've hired very high level accounting talent stateside. I have to say that our Philippines based team is outperforming most of our US based staff. How dare you Jonathan. I was absolutely blown away with the type of candidates that we got from our job posting. Team up really helped us navigate the things we weren't sure of. That's Jonathan's story. A real live accountant just like you. For some reason we have this thing in our head. Maybe it's an American thing where you think when you hire somebody that's not in your country, they're not going to be as good as somebody in your country just because their power plugs look different. But that, you know, that just doesn't make a lot of sense, does it? If you're exploring hiring folks in the Philippines. If you are stuck on your US Hiring strategy, hit up Team up link down in the show notes to help you find some super talented accountants in the Philippines who will get that client work straight out the door on time. Today's episode is sponsored in part by Live Flow, the company that puts a wee bitty QuickBooks button in your Excel or in your Google sheets. It's an extension that from Excel from your spreadsheet lets you pull in data from any client accounting file that you're connected to in QuickBooks. If you think about the recurring situations where you may be running reports out of QuickBooks balance sheet P and L ledger reports, maybe that's a month end close where you run a whole bunch of reports to a PDF for Excel and then mark them up. What else? Maybe you got consolidations you do, maybe a bit of benchmarking. Ooh, whatever those workflows, our Live Flow lets you automatically build those reports or pull a whole bunch of those things like instantly in a templated way. In fact, I just shot an ad for a YouTube video which I think is a super cool use case where I built out like this whole month end package of all these reports that I need to close the books for the company. This big workbook with a bunch of tabs. But then to run it for the next company, all I have to do is literally just from a dropdown, select a different company and I can run the exact same workbook template but with the other company's data. Super cool link down in the show notes. If you want to give those spreadsheets superpowers, check out Lifelow. And then the last one I really liked. Easier Cash Flow and capacity planning. What we're going to talk about at the end of today is actually a different way they propose of looking at an income statement. And it's a little bit more like how software companies that are built on recurring revenue make financial decisions and kind of view their success. Those metrics are a little different when they're built around recurring revenue rather than just the traditional income statement. That is a snapshot of a point in time. What you're really trying to do is, is like, build that recurring revenue long term and then you project out like, what's our headcount going to be? How many, how many clients do we want to try to add? How much churn should we plan for clients going away? And some of that stuff is a little different when everybody's on, on fixed recurring revenue. Less convincing aspects of this to me, like the bits that I'm just. I don't think that's really the case. Breaking down silos in the firm, the notion that by, by pricing the entire client relationship and having them on a single recurring fee, it breaks down silos in the firm. I just don't see that unless there's a fundamental shift in how the engagement is managed and the relationship with the client is managed. Sure, if you have like a relationship manager that's kind of the advocate for the client that comes back and works across those silos in your firm, that can for sure make a difference. But simply flipping to subscription pricing itself, I don't think solves for that problem. And the siloing of different functions in a firm is a problem because the client doesn't want to call in and talk with a bunch of different people. But I don't see subscription pricing really solving that. Also, like, bigger picture in this book, all books kind of follow this arc of let me convince you of my point and then let me actually show you how to execute my point. In the phase of this book that is more like, let me convince you of my point. It's putting a finger on all the different things that have transitioned to a subscription model in the last decade. And it is amazing just how many versions of this there are. But the opposite is also happening. A lot of people don't like subscriptions. Like, nobody's sitting there thinking, boy, I hope I. I hope I get one more subscription service coming out of my bank every month. I hope, I hope I can find that next one today. Like, some people are more, more okay with it than others. Other people actively avoid this stuff. So the fact that more of the world is trending towards subscriptions. I don't see that in and of itself as a rationale for professional services to then default to subscriptions. The context that I do see it being really valuable and this is actually. There was a time in my life when I was just doing tax write up and I went back to graduate school and I thought I was going to go do something else. And what brought me back to the profession was what I saw as a massive opportunity. Call it cash services, call it managed accounting, whatever it is, no small business sets out thinking, you know, what our core competency is going to be, what's going to differentiate us from the, from the competition, how we run our accounting department. Like that does not need to be a focus of any small business. But I can come in as a firm where I, I do this for hundreds of other other small businesses and I'm going to be massively qualified to be able to do this well and do this efficiently and I can offer this service to a small business that would otherwise require, you know, half a person to five people. And we could go into a one and a half million dollar business and command a 50 to $80,000 a year fee. And there were just very few. I mean those businesses had virtually no vendors on that vendor list who they paid that much every single year. And it was because we were able to frame our services through the lens of ftes of what it would cost to, to otherwise hire people to get this work done. And that is a context where I think a subscription makes a ton of sense. If option A is for the business owner to build their own accounting department, go find all those people that are really hard to find and expect them to build the systems and all that. And so all the costs rolled up in that is the systems, the people, the overhead of managing those folks. If the alternative is to, for a subscription, pay for someone to handle that problem for you, that's super compelling. That's what brought me back to the profession. That's why I then went out and like launched our cast practice. That's a ton of fun and a great business proposition for just about any small business owner. But does that mean everything in our firms or every type of work that we do ought to go subscription? I'm not so sure about that. In fact, one of the most, if we're, if we're going to get into examples of subscriptions outside of professional services, I can show you the most compelling counter argument I've seen to subscriptions in a long time. This is once a software company who is building software that you buy one time. That's kind of the whole premise behind it. You actually own it. It's by the team behind Basecamp and their landing page is like a. It's a founder letter style landing page where it's just a letter from the founder saying here's the problem and how we're trying to solve it. And it is an ode to anti subscriptionism. Website is once.com Here it is. Something happened to business software. You used to pay for it once, install it and run it, whether on someone's computer or a server for everyone. It felt like you owned it. And you did. Today, most software is a service not owned but rented. Buying it enters you into a perpetual landlord tenant agreement. Every month you pay for essentially the same thing you had last month. And if you stop paying, the software stops working. Boom. You're evicted. For nearly two decades, the SaaS model benefited landlords handsomely with routine prayers and payers to the church of recurring revenue valuations shot to the moon on the backs of businesses subscribed at luxury prices for commodity services they had little control over. Add up your SaaS subscriptions last year. You should own that bleep by now. SaaS still makes sense for many products, but its grip will slip. Installation and administration used to be hopelessly complicated, but self hosting tech is simpler now and vastly improved. Plus IT departments are hungry to run their own it again, tired of being subservient to big tech's rain clouds. Once upon a time, you owned what you paid for, you controlled what you depended on and your privacy and security were your own business. We think it's that time again, introducing once a new line of software products from 37signals. Pay one time, own forever. We write the code, you get to see it. We give you the software, you get to host it. Simple and straightforward, not enterprise Y and bloated for one fixed price once. Pretty compelling, right? Like, first time I read this, I was seething. I was like, yeah, this is wrong. Why are they making us pay every single month? I'm so sick of this. By the way, I'm sure you can hear it. There's a chipper shredder running just on the other side of the wall that started halfway through that landscaper absolutely going to town. So there's absolutely compelling arguments against subscriptions. Nobody's actively going out looking for another subscription unless it solves a really meaningful problem. And I think managed accounting is an example of a really profound problem that the business owner does not want to fuss with where they will happily cut a check every single month to carve out that part of the business and delegate it to your firm. So ultimately, I think a prerequisite to this really working, in my opinion, is is there a compelling way for me to provide value year round if I just do a thing once a year? That feels like a hard thing to build a subscription service around. Now there's another question of should we only be doing things once a year? And maybe that actually is the problem where only taking on work where we can serve them throughout more of the year, that is the solution. And then that opens up subscriptions and value pricing. I want to run you through nine subscription types that they listed out. Because what accounting firms do is actually usually a combination of several different types of subscription. And as you may suspect, there's very real skill involved in how we apply this and communicate this to our clients. So let me run you through these nine types of subscriptions. Number one, the membership website. Think Wall Street Journal, New York Times. Number two, the all you can eat library, Netflix, Spotify. Number three, the private club, like a country club. Number four, front of the line model, priority access. Think clear at the airports. Number five, the consumable model based on replenishment like just like razors, like a razor subscription. AI tools. Use this where it's based on number of credits. Number six, the surprise box model. Fruit of the month. Number seven, the simplifier model. Think of like premium car services where you can subscribe to Porsche or Audi and pay this astronomical fee and drive whatever car you want. Don't have to worry with me. Maintenance, worry about maintenance or anything. Number eight, the network model. Get partial access to expensive infrastructure like NetJets, Zipcar. You've got this big spendy thing and you're getting fractional access to it. Number nine, the peace of mind model. A form of insurance. They reference tag for pet tracking. Direct primary care. So being able to pay a subscription to have primary care service like go to see the doctor. Now, which of those is an accounting firm? It's actually a combination of a number of those things. And I think there's probably ways to increase the perceived value of what you're delivering by better calling out all the different aspects or all the different types of subscriptions you're getting people access to. So the private club, the country club. Something we don't think about enough. Oftentimes the value of just being on the client list. There's a finite number of clients that are allowed to be on that list. And you got to pay to be on there, just, just for access to your attention span. And we oftentimes don't give that enough appreciation. We don't communicate like what a privilege it is to be on that list. And I think if we communicate it a little more like the exclusivity of what we do, leaning into this sort of private club notion, I think the perceived value of them being on that list and, and paying you that subscription, I think the perceived value of that goes up. This episode is sponsored in part by ClientHub. Choosing a practice management system for your firm. It is, it is a big decision, arguably the biggest tech decision you make. Here is a way to think about it. Use the four Cs. Isn't that A, isn't that like a diamond thing? Like clarity, cut, carat and crunch? Boy, flashbacks to having to buy a diamond when I proposed to my wife. I think we're moving past that. I think fake diamonds have gotten good enough. Well, I remember one of those C's I totally maxed and just let all the other C's burn because they seemed less important. Where am I right now? Wearing a Client Hub ad read when choosing a PM, think about the 4C's capabilities, client experience, clarity and crunch, and community. Today we're talking capabilities. There are a lot of PM solutions out there that do a whole lot of stuff. Remember that roundup we did of all the different PMs? 14 of them compared hundreds of different features. But Client Hub specifically, it sets itself apart from the others with two sets of capabilities. One, it's built to support your cast slash bookkeeping work with QBO and Xero integrations built straight into the PM platform. And two, they're investing in AI that is artificial intelligence. You might have heard of it with magic email replies, magic words, workflow, magic answers. Starla. Is that her name? What's the wizard lady's name? Sharla Starlet? Starla Charm Blaster. She's not here right now. It's about picking the right tools for your needs. Now for practice, it's more tax or audit centric. There's probably better options out there than Client Hub. Wow, they just called out who they're not for props, but if your firm is founded on bookkeeping and client accounting services, ClientHub is a great platform for you. Or a small startup that's co founded by a firm. Former firm owner, top 100 pro advisor who knows the challenges for firms like yours. Learn more about ClientHub. Check out the link in the show notes. We've also Done some demos of them on my YouTube channel. And thanks to ClientHub for sponsoring this episode. This episode is sponsored in part by Financial Sense. If you're listening to this and you don't have a practice management system yet, stop it. Hit pause, Stop using a spreadsheet and sticky notes and I can do all this by memory. You just got can't now. Admittedly, big problem with a lot of PMs. They started in a basic, humble place. A lot of them have gotten pretty sweaty where it takes like a, like a PhD and computer changing stuff to get your firm onto this thing. Like it's hard. It requires an implementation specialist and like a whole team of people to get your team to the next thing. But Financial Sense, man, you can pop out of their website right now to spin up a few free trial. You don't need onboarding packages, all that stuff. It is easy enough where you can go out, take a first spin, see if you like it. If you don't, forget about them. Okay, but would they stand up a free trial if they didn't think it would work right? Okay, if you've, if you've had concerns or maybe analysis paralysis on what PM do I do? Honestly, the quickest way to get information, go out, spin up a trial, use it for a week, see what you, you think. There are not very many PMs that will actually let you do that right now. Financial Sense is one of them. Check out the link in the show notes to learn more. Now, front of the line model, most of us have these sort of premium tiers, but we often don't think of like, does that actually give someone priority? The reality is it usually does. They're usually getting a higher level of service where they're getting access to a better team members or shorter turnaround times. But we don't frame this usually as priority access or this premium thing. It's just the most expensive option, the simplifier model. So this the analogy being to like subscription to Porsche or Audi or something like that. Maybe this makes the most sense through the lens of, of managed accounting, where we are taking away all the maintenance, all of the having to pick the people and all of that. We're managing that stuff for you. And then the peace of mind model, there's probably easy ways to lean into this. Better for them to think of what you're doing as a form of insurance, particularly if you're doing tax work. There was a real push about five years ago for accounting firms to sell basically audit insurance. And due to the relatively Low likelihood of audit. And you can kind of do the math here on where to set these thresholds in a way that ensured that you would come out ahead. But basically you sell this quote, unquote audit insurance that is not infinite insurance. It's like, you know, covers the first five grand in fees for any sort of tax resolution work or anything like that. Definitely some risk to it because you don't know when something's going to go sideways and create a whole bunch of work across the entire client base, as we've learned in the last few years. But if we're trying to build more of a sense of like peace of mind as a form of insurance into a subscription service, what if anybody that was on a subscription got like the base tier of this audit insurance, something like that? So you can tell them you want to send us that, that notice, whatever it is, anytime, send it over, we're going to take a look at it and you're not going to get charged unless it becomes a really big scope project. Many of us do this. You may be thinking like clients can send that stuff to us all the time and we, we do, we look at it, they can send us that employee garnishment. We'll knock it out. But are we doing a good job of communicating that we're providing that, like that peace of mind, the notion that when that unexpected thing comes up, now you have us to help you solve it. It's not this thing that's going to torpedo your afternoo. We know what it is and we're going to knock it out for you. When I first skimmed through this list of subscriptions, I was like, I guess this is interesting, they're all consumer products. But I don't understand which one of these accounting firms are before eventually coming around to like, oh, we're kind of a roll up, like a combination of all these different things. Like the all you can eat library. You put together 10 loom videos or something like that. You have this content library that you can send clients to to say, here's how to understand a statement of cash flows. Here's how to understand a, A, P and L. Here's why your P and L isn't reflective of the cash change in the business that month. How many times have you explained that to somebody where you can make a little 20 minute video and now your clients have like all they can eat access to that library of helpful stuff from you. How nice would that be? Right? So if we can do a better job of delineating all of the different things that are provided. It should help us to overcome. You know, we talked about the five Cs. We talked about this on Monday. It can help us to overcome maybe the, the thing that most of us are worst at, which is communicating the value that they are getting. We understand the value of it, but we can hardly expect our clients to understand it in the same way. And then we're just annoyed when they don't. Right. I think that comes through in subscriptions as well. If we can do a better job of communicating exactly what all is layered into that subscription they're getting. Last thing I wanted to touch on is they get into a sort of an alternative approach to building an income statement that's more suited for sort of the age of recurring revenue. Basically how it works is it looks like a financial statement, but at the very top line it has annual recurring revenue. This is ARR. Just below that it has churn. Churn is like the amount of revenue that left during the year after that net ARR. You follow that with recurring costs. So like cogs, direct labor, gna, research and development. And below that you have recurring profit margin. So your recurring income minus your recurring costs. After that you have growth costs, sales and marketing to get to your net operating income. Then you arrive at a figure for what is new ARR this year. And last line is ending ARR. So it all is built around what is your annual recurring revenue, what are your recurring costs, what are your one time costs and then what is your new ARR for going forward? And if you focus your business on optimizing for this ARR, there's other metrics that are very important, like how much money are you actually making on your revenue, like what are margins, stuff like that. But if you start making decisions that are optimized for improving recurring revenue, I do think that's a very fundamentally different way of thinking about your business. That is not chasing your tail and always looking for the next project and never knowing where the next dollar is going to come from. It's an argument against us doing project work and cleanup work and that sort of thing. That is, that is sort of one off stuff as opposed to finding that next recurring client where the lifetime value of that client is much, much more. Because what I want is the good sized recurring project that we're doing every single month, every single week, not that, you know, one off cleanup job that may be the equivalent of six months fees on that recurring job. Like I'm looking for recurring work. Now, a couple metrics you may have heard Thrown around. They, they go through a whole bunch of different acronyms like metrics that recurring revenue companies use to measure success. Crr, that is your customer retention rate. At which rate are you basically shedding clients, churning clients. CAC probably heard that one before. Customer acquisition costs. How much does the firm spend to gain customers relative to the number that it has acquired? So what do you got to spend to get that next customer? And then clv, what is the customer lifetime value Estimates value of the future net profit from the customer over the duration of the relationship. Now software companies like where so much of their money is being poured straight back into advertising and growing as quickly as possible. They dial this stuff in like to an unbelievable degree. Where accounting firms usually just, they're like I don't have time for marketing and kind of that's it. When the reality is it's very possible that some marketing spend and if you look at groups like pasba, like they give you kind of a template for here's how to hire a marketing person. For most firms, some marketing spend would actually yield a incredible ratio like this microscopic customer acquisition cost relative to the lifetime value of that next customer. We just, we don't make the time for it. But it's an aspect of that kind of recurring subscription mindset that I think most of us, I know, myself included, like are not fully plugged into. Because when you are raised on traditional P and L and like period reporting, this stuff just doesn't, isn't framed in a way that communicates the value of recurring revenue. Like it's just built on that snapshot in time. But how much of that revenue and how much of that profitability is under contract is still going to be there next month. Like it doesn't do much to capture that. So good ways and bad ways to do subscriptions, some stuff that it's suited for better than others and not unlike the conversations we're having around those itty bitty projects that maybe aren't worthwhile that we're starting to shed. I will say generally where most firms are trending to doing kind of everything for a client and be more hands on year round for sure those are the projects where subscriptions and a degree of value pricing are going to make the most sense. Reality is most firms aren't there today and so they still need to understand maybe, maybe that does look good. And that's where I got to get. But I still got to pay the bills today. And it is on, it is on some of that stuff where value pricing, sometimes the juice is not worth the squeeze, especially if you're doing like a high volume of small things or it's going to consume all of your time to like walk clients through those conversations. Because it's just a technically harder thing to do than to plop down an hourly rate or work off budgeted hours or something like that. Okay, tomorrow we're running through a whole bunch of blockers on this. I am generally pretty pro value pricing in most cases, and I have no interest in like, like dump dunking on it or tearing it down. But I am interested to dig into the nuance of for what most people are doing today, for where they're at today, what aspects of it make sense and what don't. And we're going to tease out a whole bunch more of that tomorrow with questions folks have submitted and some discussions we've had online. Got questions. Keep those comments coming down below. Seeing other people's questions is really helpful because people are like, yeah, no, I kind of feel a degree of that as well. And being able to talk through it and just kind of process that stuff together, I think raises the bar for all of us. So we, we the very least have like a more mature, more complete understanding of it to decide if it's something for us. That's it for subscriptions today. Thanks for coming and hanging questions. Pop them in the comments. I'll see you tomorrow.