423 Should ANY Accountants Be Doing Payroll in 2025?

Today, should anybody even be in the business of doing payroll when all of the new like payroll platforms, it's all done for you, like they're handling the filings and all of that. Is that something that we should even be fussing with anymore? How to navigate uncomfortable pricing decisions, analysis paralysis on software decisions. And I launched some new stuff you might have seen. I'll let you know what I'm doing and kind of my decision making framework for why I think that's worthwhile on a Q and a Friday of Jason on firms. Let's do it. Oh, payroll, payroll, payroll, payroll. Did you see my ugly cry on the, on the thumbnail? If you're watching the YouTube version, Payroll man, it is thankless. It is loveless. People just expect you to do it perfectly. And then when you don't, somebody gets super mad because it's like real money that's impacting someone. But check out this question. I think a lot of people are navigating this in some form or another. Some folks may be on the other side of it. And if you are, I would love to hear from you in the comments of like best practices on how you navigated this. Here's a question. Our firm currently uses ATX payroll compliance to prepare quarterly and annual payroll forms and 1099s. While I would love to move away from preparing these forms, there are select clients that I still offer this service to. I'm looking to move away from atx. Do you have any security suggestions? Oh, I don't. I'll be honest, I don't have great advice here for like, well, here's a great software platform with which to prepare payroll forms. I don't know that they exist, honestly. QBD man, QuickBooks Desktop. That was the move for most firms, but you can't do that anymore. The rub with, with payroll is building software for accounting firms to prepare quarterly and annual payroll forms. It's not a good business. And so all the software companies have got out of that business in favor of just the fixed monthly recurring model. What can I charge you for every single month that you'll pay for? And so that's why you see the gustos, the ripplings, even adp. Like those companies getting into the business of like, you're just gonna pay us a fixed monthly fee plus employee headcount per month. We're gonna handle all the, all the quarterly payments, all the quarterly filings, all the, all the monthly, whatever year end. We got it, we got it all covered for you. It's fine. Don't Even Worry about a QuickBooks online payroll users. Whoa. Trigger warning. So it feels like a tough, a tough spot to set yourself up in, to put yourself in the position of needing to prepare these forms. Cause I can tell you, the tools, like there's not great investment going into the tools to manually prepare this stuff. If you want to go whole hog on payroll stuff, go back and listen to the episode with Matthew Patrick. I can't remember how big he said it was. I think it's like a $5 million payroll practice or something like that. Basically, you make big investments in kind of almost your own white labeled payroll platform. And that's if you're interested in doing payroll at scale and that is still a compelling business. And you can actually sell those payroll practices at really good multiples because people generally don't change their payroll provider. It's pretty sticky. And if you can get like the, like, if it is the focus of the business, if it is the business. Anybody ever told you peril's the business. If it is the business, like the operations of, of having backups and getting people to run that stuff on an ongoing basis, it's not terrible. What is terrible is when you are running six other businesses, doing taxes and, and, and coaching and bookkeeping, all these other things, and you're like, ah, crap, it's payroll day today and they haven't sent me the hours or whatever you need. That sucks. So on the software front, I don't have a great answer for you if you disagree. If you have a platform you like, drop it down in the comments for sure. But the bigger question is, should any of us even be of doing payroll in an age where everybody else is, is getting the H out of there, right? If Gusto doesn't want to do it, if Rippling doesn't want to do it, if nobody wants to get in and do this stuff, do I need to be the hero to stop the rising tides of everyone agreeing the payroll generally sucks? That's probably not a position I want to put myself in. And the folks who cling to that the most are the ones who have something that they do for clients. And they look around and they're like, well, crap, I'm doing this for way less money than it's going to cost them to pay gusto for 12 months or something like that. And that's, I mean, it's a bummer situation to find yourself in. And let me tell you, you are a heck of a person for, for bearing that burden for your client. The trouble is, I don't know, like more, more and more charitable every single year. The notion of doing payroll, like manual payroll filings for people. When we got out of this, it was hard, it was tricky. You know the, the single owner S Corp type situations where maybe you just run a year end payroll. Like yeah, you've got all the questions. If you mean to tell me I gotta pay a year round monthly subsc to run one payroll for somebody. There's all sorts of situations like that where it seems wasteful. But the reality is you're still even for, even for zero dollar payrolls, you're still doing quarterly reports, you're still doing all these different things. It is admin that always falls at the most inopportune times. And so the, maybe the more important question is how do we get your clients into a better spot? I think we could probably all agree it's not a great business for us to be in. It's not profitable work by any means. So what is the solution for clients? Honestly, and it's a sucky answer, but it's the best one that I can give you. The solution is a frank conversation where you say, frank, here's the deal. Let me show you all the different payroll solutions that are out there. Here's how much all of them cost. These are all of your options. Unless you want a diy and I suspect you don't. Here's what I've been charging you. You see how it's like a tenth of what you have to pay for these other solutions. The reason is, is that it's hard and that it requires expertise that is, is finite. And so I can't hire people until the end of time to do this stuff. The reality is we kind of priced ourselves into a corner on this stuff and we're getting out of the business of doing payroll. Now if you can find a payroll practice, who will take this stuff on? In fact, Matthew Patrick. Did I say let's link that episode in the show notes? Let's link that episode in the show notes. Matthew Patrick. They, they'll actually partner with firms and, and do payroll for your firm. This is the arrangement that I had in my firm. We had a payroll practice that was local ish, that did a good enough, good enough job and we would refer our clients to them. In some cases they would be less expensive than like paying guests or to sit on their hands for 11 months and do one payroll a year. But then at least we had somebody that we could send them to when we were like, sorry bro, not for me. Anymore, that's the best thing you can do. And if. If you don't have that practice, that payroll practice in your network, drop a comment under the YouTube video. Like, there's. There are a lot of people that do this. There are folks skulk and LinkedIn that, that acquire payroll practices. So there are payroll practices for sure. But I think in 2025, it has never been a worse time than now to do all the things and payroll, I think it's actually a pretty rad business to just do payroll. Like, that's a whole different path you could go down. That's actually pretty cool. Like, you got to, like, be able to build a sales engine and all that. That business is interesting to me. But the one where you're doing all the other stuff and payroll, that kind of sucks. I don't know if that's a place to set up camp in 2025. So think about the best way that you could transition out of that. Build a bit of a network so that you can let those clients down a little softer, not leave them, flap them in the breeze. This episode is sponsored in part by Cloud Accountant Staffing, who helps you find super talented accountants in the Philippines. Boy, is 2025 going to be the year of the Philippines. Like, it's not even just an accounting thing. I have talked into, like, so many people in other industries lately where they're like, yeah, no, we started picking up people in the Philippines. Just the whole trend of, like, folks in the Philippines working for Western companies that, like, has become so normalized now. I was talking with a listener of the podcast the other day, completely unprompted. They're like, yeah, no, I. This was a good idea. I changed this and that. And I kind of finally got off my butt and started hiring people in the Philippines. And I hired, like, three people with Cloud Accountant staffing just last month. Holy smoke. First of all, chill out, guy. Second of all, what took you so long? Third of all, what's taking you so long? Okay, it's the same thing I did. I made one hire and I'm like, okay, this is actually working really well. I'm going to make some more hires. This is not me just shilling wares for people that do placements. Actually, I guess that's technically exactly what this is, but it's also exactly what I did. It worked really well. A lot of listeners who have started doing this, I've heard super, super positive things from. They're still human beings. It's still managing people. So it still sucks in many ways, but cloud account staffing is going to make it as easy as possible for you. You can explore that. Check out the link to learn more about Cast down in the show. Notes this episode is sponsored in part by Makers Hub. Hey, Quick Quick Win opportunity for your clients that do any sort of accounts payable even if you don't do bill pay. Send them to this podcast sponsor, Makers Hub. You've heard me talk about Makers Hub before. We've run several Demos on the YouTube channel. Ooh. In fact, bonus points if you send your client one of my YouTube videos. Okay, this isn't your ad read. Jason Makers Hub, they are leaning into AI vision models and large language models to enable a entirely different level of accounts payable automation. I've talked about this before. The single most disrupted part of the accounting profession right now, courtesy of AI, is accounts payable. And Makers Hub is a great snapshot of that done really well, really smartly. It's not one more platform to manage. It pushes all the data back into the QuickBooks file. So you still got a single source of truth. I have clients who this would have said saved an unbelievable amount of time for. And this is when we were running Best of Breed Tech three or four years ago. For them, this would have taken that automation so much further. If you do bill pay as a service, you need to be looking at this because this totally changes your business model. But even even if you don't, if you have clients that struggle with this and a lot of them do, have them, check out Mega Sub Super Smart Folks behind that. You're gonna see him out at a lot of accounting conferences this year. Learn more Check out the link down in the show notes. Next, Navigating uncomfortable pricing conversations. There's a lot of shame when it comes to pricing. And maybe it's just accountants talking with other accountants. It's definitely accountants talking on social media because holy smokes, do the, do the A holes come out fast when they're like, I can't believe you charge. Pick a number for. Pick a service. Meanwhile, for every A hole, there's a bigger a hole with a bigger firm that charges even more. Like, there is no ceiling to this. There's no ceiling to what you can charge for accounting and tax services. We're all in a, in a, in a big old food chain and ecosystem and there's always a bigger fish, as evidenced by when, when you know, you get those trickle down client client situations and somebody comes in from another bigger firm and you hear where they're coming from, you're like, you're licking your chops already, and you just can't wait to get your hands on the invoice of what they did last year or look in the ledger and you're like, how on God's green earth could anybody charge this much money for this quality of work? That's the same reason people pay a lot of money for anything, because they think it's worth it. Meanwhile, you're, you're like, yelling at him through a nasty laptop webcam, and he got mustard on his shirt. Like, act like you give a darn. Perception is reality. What were we talking about? Uncomfortable pricing. I got a question that is like, man, I'm just in this really tough spot on pricing. I don't know how to get out of it. And I, and I, I, I grapple with it. Almost feels wrong, you know, to, like, price myself more aggressively for, like. Because I know that I probably should. A few thoughts. Maybe this helps. At the end of the day, it's up to the client to determine what's right and what's wrong. Oftentimes we got this little monster inside of us that is saying things like, you're not worth that you're going to increase your price, that you're going to have to deliver a whole bunch more value. Or. I was actually talking with a bunch of accountants today in a, in a session in my, my online community. Several folks in that group had rolled out, like, tiered proposals for the first time. Gold, silver, bronze. And bronze was the basic kind of compliance package, what they've always done for people. And they were all across the board shocked at how many people opted in to silver, opted in to gold. In one case, it was one of their favorite clients. Someone who's just crushing it, launching all kinds of businesses. They're doing a bunch of stuff for them, and they opted into gold. And this astronomically increased the money that, that they were paying to the firm. And they're like, wow, Gladys, you selected this? And the client's like, honestly, it's because you're already worth more than that to me. And as we were talking about it, the, the person that runs the firm, they're grappling with a little bit of like, yeah, we got, we gotta do a lot more, and we gotta kind of do more now. We gotta be able to justify that value. But you probably already heard it. They're already providing the value, right? Because the client is, is happily paying for it. So we've got this voice in our head where the value that we assign to Work is based on what our peers do. And the first thing that people do when they're. When they're very new and running a firm or they haven't found kind of their sort of their lane and running a firm yet is they ask, what does everybody else charge for this or that? As if that matters. It really doesn't, like, because there's a. There's an infinite spectrum in what other people charge. And so it's more about what's the next step on my journey and how do I get there. That's all that matters, is how do I get from A to B? A being where I am today, B being the single next client who will pay me 50% more for what I already do. Simple as that. And that. That little monster inside of you that says, well, now you got to provide 50% more value. So often it is wrong, because the people that take up all of our headspace are the. Are the whiners, the complainers, the people that don't like how much they pay you. Meanwhile, you probably got even more people. If you got 10 whiners, you probably got 20 people on that client list who would happily pay you way, way more, but they aren't paying you more. In fact, you oftentimes get skittish when it comes to increasing rates because you've got the people living in your head who are like, how are you so expensive? This is. This is blasphemy. So, like, that notion of wrong, we just got to get over that. Because you're not deciding for them, at the end of the day, they're deciding. And if they have a better option that's worth factoring in, what are we not doing that this other group is doing? Or do we not look unique enough to where there's too many. Too many alternatives to what we do. But, like, the optimized way to run an accounting firm in many ways, is perpetually living in discomfort. And I talk with a lot of folks in the first five years of running their firm, where every single year they're increasing prices 30% year over year, and that's completely normal. It changes very fast, especially in the beginning. And frankly, that's what you should be doing. But if we're afraid to live in that, like, sit in that discomfort, then you're probably costing yourself years of growth. So that. That discomfort is probably a thing you want to seek out, because it probably means that that's where you ought to be living. Now there's gonna be maniacs who, like, have no conscience where, like, that does not apply to. Right. But the vast majority of people living in that discomfort is the place to be. Ken Block Rally Driver have I talked about how I used to race rally cars on this podcast before I did for like four or five years after, after college, did a whole bunch of rallies with Ken Block. Sadly passed in a, in a snowmobile crash a couple, couple years ago. Ken Block used to always say, if you're not scared, you're not going fast enough. And he wasn't talking about accounting firms. But I think there's a degree of that. Like it kind of seems right. Right. Like if, if you're growing as fast as you probably could, that is like pushing the envelope on pricing and all that. It ought to be uncomfortable because you know what you do in that situation, what most of us do is you, you, you get that client in and they say yes. And you're like, holy smoke. Okay, this is a new kind of. I didn't realize anybody would say yes to this. But, but I'm going to set up camp here. I like this and that. That just blows your mind. But then you look back 18 months in the past and you're like, oh man, we were just giving it away. 18 months. Oftentimes you'll look back and the pricing is like, wow, that pricing sucks. But then you look forward and you're like this, this is probably it. That won't happen again. That was a one time thing. And then somebody says yes and you're like, oh, okay. 18 months down the road, cycle repeats. I don't know why it is. That's like just how our brain works. Insecurities. I don't know what it is, but find a way to sit in that discomfort because that's just the name of the game. And if you're not uncomfortable, what's the Tim Ferriss thing? Which he stole from somebody else who knows where it came from. Hard decisions, easy life. Easy decisions, hard life. Let's talk about software decisions. I worry that I create an abundance of analysis paralysis because I think the folks that tune into my stuff are the most aware of the ecosystem. I was talking with a software vendor the other day who's like, is it worth going to the state society conferences? And I was like, honestly, yes. Because when I go to state society conferences, like CPA Society, there'll be like four vendors there and the people there know absolutely nothing. The attendees in general know absolutely nothing about the software ecosystem. And they will walk up to your booth and you could be a cloud practice management system. This could literally Be the first time they've ever heard of a cloud practice management system. You're the only one there, and they will look you in the eyes and they will say, where have you been all of my life? Where do I sign the contract? But you watch one of my videos and you're like, okay, okay. So there's four. So there's 47 practice management systems. Now get the. Make the list. We gotta add a couple to the list, and before you know it, you are just so far up your own keister, you're not gonna make a decision for. For years. Case in point. Let me run you through this example. Trying to make a practice management system decision. We have 25 people in our firm, about a $3 million firm doing mostly tax and accounting. I've looked at your PM recommendation tool. It recommends Carbon Canopy or Count. That's because it's a bigger firm. Those are usually the three that I send folks to. I'd also looked at Mango, so tinkered with it to see what your tool thought of it and it was not recommended. Some more details about, like how they've gone down the rabbit hole with every single one of these tools, but they keep hitting a sticking point or red flag with the products that they explore. Do you have any advice? Every single time they go down the path, they get stuck on something with a tool that they can't overcome. The reality is there's never gonna be a tool that's absolutely perfect. There just isn't. Look for things that have a lot of traction with your peers, things that are used by firms that you look up to and software companies that are continuing to develop, because that's not all of them. And most of the people going to these newer platforms, they're coming off of an old legacy platform, which is an evil that they know. But I can tell you that platform's not going anywhere. Not getting any love. Hasn't changed in a decade or two. So part of this is like getting with the. The of this decade way of running an accounting firm. And that has to be done on a cloud practice management system. And there will be benefits and efficiencies to that that you don't always necessarily see upfront because it's kind of a different paradigm of running your accounting firm, like leveraging requests and having all of your files in a place where a client can log in and self serve. And. And when you don't have the benefits of any of those things, what we focus on is just the stuff that we lose. We fixate on that and we minimize the upsides. Like for whatever reason in our brains those things don't take equal weights. And at a certain point you just gotta go for it. The more people you can talk to, the more peers you can talk to, the better to pick their brain on why do they like something or not like something. But at a certain point you got to go for it. And just in any software change come in acknowledging the fact that absolutely nothing's going to be perfect. But why did we head down this path in the first place? There are certain things that there is such a groundswell of support for. Like all accounting firms should be on a cloud practice management system. That's not a hot take by me by any means. Tax intake tools are also this Talk to anybody that's using Stanford Tax or Sorban, they will tell you it completely changed how I ran my firm. And even, even people using very progressive PMs like Taxdome who are like, yes, this augments my what I love my my tech stack in a way that's incredibly valuable. Even though I have a very good practice management system. What PMs do today is very different than what intake systems do. Keeper. Just an astronomical number of bookkeeping firms have moved to Keeper. Same sort of thing. Keeper is not a pm. It does so many things that your PM doesn't do. So don't make like the. Don't hedge your bets and pick like the middle of the road PM. That's kind of good for bookkeeping firms. It's not. PMs are not a month end close automation tool. Keeper is acknowledge that there's going to be bummer stuff on the list. But also try to keep focused on the upsides and weigh those things evenly. I've talked before about how for big platform decisions like a practice management system, you kind of got to make a deal with your team to be like, we're going to ride this for X number of years. Because if you go through a big change like that and then try to change again the very next year, don't do that. Honestly, there's no reason why that should happen in this day and age when we have such great transparency of information where you talk with your peers and have conversations with other people who are actually users. We're not making decisions in the dark based on what salespeople tell us like we used to. So that decision making ought to be more validated than it's been able to be in the past. But at a certain point, kind of just gotta go for it. Oh, this episode is Actually sponsored in part by. By Ramp, who. I'm a Ramp user. I really am. My business actually runs on Ramp. It is a super, super solid spend management platform, which is a phrase that they made up because they can't call themselves a bank. So they're not a bank. But like, spend hygiene and getting our clients onto better banking I think is. It's a really, really big opportunity right now. And it's one of those things where we don't necessarily like, interject ourselves to say, like, oh, no, we should be opinionated with how you manage your money. But then you see, like, what a headache is to track down receipts across your team for just getting the month end close done. You see stuff like people passing around the office card where the numbers get stolen every nine months. Like, gang, there is a solution for this, a way, way better way to do this stuff. We've done a couple Demos on my YouTube channel now for Ramp. I would recommend you check those out because you may not even be thinking about, like, I don't even, I don't even know what quote unquote, spend management or a good version of this looks like. Give it a look. Solves a whole bunch of headaches, is like the responsible thing to do. Like, if you run a small business, I'm thinking, like, put this information in front of your clients. If you do any type of bookkeeping, it can be a big old workflow hack to make your life easier too. Learn more about RAMP. Check out those videos on the YouTube channel or the link down in the show notes. Okay, gang. This podcast is sponsored in part by Teamup, the folks that help you find super talented accountants in the Philippines and hire them directly. Team up just launched a. What do they call it? A salary guide. A salary guide for hiring accounts in the Philippines. But it's so much more than a salary guide. You know all the embarrassing, ignorant questions we're afraid to ask about hiring people in the Philippines? How much does it cost to get this type of person? Can I even get, I don't know, a tax pro, an accounting manager, an executive assistant. Is that a thing? This guide. And it's going to be linked down in the show notes. It'll show you not just how to, like get each of those different types of people, but what they'll cost. How to build out a job description. All of the questions that you have been too embarrassed to ask to find folks at Team up, they put them into a guide that you can swipe. Get that one down at the link. The show notes last but not least you may have seen on social media, I've shared some stuff. I launched some content under the moniker Jason Online. So all my accounting stuff is. Is Jason on firms, the more broad, like stuff for kind of knowledge workers and teams and productive people in general that is under the moniker Jason Online. I got a new YouTube channel where I'm publishing some stuff there. And it's. It's basically just like productivity stuff that leans pretty hard on AI Logan Graff. Oh, Logan Graff, my sweet, sweet summer child. He. He like tweeted a screenshot of a thing from me and he's like, he's leaving a county. I don't know. I guess I could see how, like, the optics of it look that way. I still love doing this stuff. Like, I'm still sitting here, I'm recording a podcast. It's 10:39pm at night, everybody else in my house is asleep. And I'm like, I enjoy this. All of, all of the channels, all the accounting stuff, like it is all the newsletter, it is all continuing along. The only stuff that will really look different, I guess, is if you follow me on social media. I'm just sharing more general stuff too, which honestly I think ought to be useful to the same group of people. Like, we got a video coming out. By the time this comes out, it may be live on the new channel around. How to do really cool new Excel automation stuff. With the recent updates to ChatGPT. Like, did you know with ChatGPT deep research, this new sort of research functionality that PhDs are saying can like oftentimes do PhD level reports. Did you know you can give that sucker Excel files and it will do analysis and analyses. It will analyze them. I've done some testing on this. It's pretty darn impressive. We did some testing with operator, the ChatGPT's agent that will like go around and click stuff. You can send Operator to online spreadsheets. You can either log it into something that's behind authentication, probably still shouldn't do that with sensitive stuff, or can go out to public spreadsheets and tell it, like, tell it to do stuff. Like, Rather than ask ChatGPT, write this formula for me, which it does very well. And with the new O3 model now it does much better. Rather than telling it, give me the formula. You can tell ChatGPT operator, go to the spreadsheet at this address and figure out what the formula should be. And gosh darn it, it'll burn an entire afternoon like that. That blessed intern who will spin their wheels and not ask for help. And it will try so darn hard. And sometimes it will get it and other times it won't. But operator, it's super, super interesting and you can run several operators at the same time. Like they're okay right now. They break a lot. They're not super smart. So Chat GPT operator basically has a built in web browser and will go do things on the web for you. You tell it what to do and it will go do it. It'll come back to you with questions if it gets stuck. Stuff like that, it's going to take like, and these are like you know, fifth grade level sort of things right now. Once these things are like high school level and I can cut any number of operators loose to go and do these things that we can create recurring tasks so that they go and do this stuff every single Tuesday, that's going to be unbelievable. Anyways, video is coming out or has already come out around cool new spreadsheet automation stuff with ChatGPT. So the same sort of stuff that like if you're tuning in and putting up with my AI podcast episodes, you're already into this stuff. What I saw, honestly it's the same thing I saw in accounting when I started making accounting content. If I look out at the news cycle around tech and AI and all that stuff, it is so much hyperbole and it's like who is filtering this? To be like here's the stuff you'd act you should actually care about and maybe even try. And here's the stuff that you probably shouldn't. I get this is a big headline, but does it actually impact you? Like will it make you more productive? Who's making the helpful like high production value, really good stuff for like normie people that just have knowledge worker jobs. I see content coming from software companies, obviously not through a unbiased lens. I see a bunch of stuff coming from media who's just trying to get clicks. But like where's the commentary on what matters and what doesn't matter and what I ought to prioritize and what I should put in front of my team? I don't see an abundance of great stuff around that. And when I see something like that, I'm like, let's go do it. Like let's give it a try. I've done a number of experience experiments like this in the past just to be like, is this something? Is there something here? Would I enjoy this? Honestly, I've, I've kept coming back to accounting content because I just really enjoy Talking accounting and working with accounting firms, and I don't see that changing. But I'm like, I'm just, I'm. Maybe I'm more experimental than most folks in that way, but I, I think it's always worth hit and pause and considering not the cost of going and doing that new thing, but what if everything that you've done so far was what you had to do to do what's next for you? Not like, get over the sunk cost fallacy. All the things, everything, the business you build, the machine that you've, that you've got going, everything that you're sitting on top of your monthly nut, everything. What if everything that got you to this moment right now was what was required for you to do that next thing? That's even better, even cooler, more impactful, helps more people. That won't always be the case. Sometimes you'll see something and you'll think that's the case, and you'll learn over time that actually wasn't the case. Worst case scenario, you still got what you had. You go back to it, you can rebuild things. Nobody's going to feel sorry for you being an accountant. You got options as an accountant these days. But I try to approach life that way because I think that is a more like optimized for personal growth way of thinking. And if you look back on your life at the progression of everything that you've done, you would probably say that about, about almost every step, that everything you did before that informed that next thing and made you capable of doing that next thing. But like, there's not a point where you get, where you're 45 and you have an accounting firm that now makes a million dollars or, or hit some revenue threshold or something like that. Like that. There's not like a threshold at which you, you did it, you're done. Like, doesn't work that way. But certainly, I mean, you can hit pause, you can, you can stop and you can optimize for, for balance and for more time and all that stuff. And that is, it's hard to do, but it's totally worth doing. Like, especially at seasons of life where you don't want to lose those moments, like the things that are happening around you where that becomes very, very important. But you never stop growing. And we perpetually underestimate what, what we're capable of or overestimate how prepared you think one feels to go and do that thing that maybe you've always thought about doing. Right, let's go and do it. That, like, who cares that, honestly, I think about that a lot. Like, we, we also have spotlight, this spotlight effect of like, well, people are going to see and what if it fails? What will they think of me if it fail? Nobody gives a crap. They really don't. And you're going to learn a tremendous amount from doing that thing or trying to do that thing and falling on your face. Just a better way to go through life. Anyways, I'll, I'll, we'll link some of that that new stuff we're doing down in the show. Notes, gang brothers, ladies, folks, thanks for being here. Thanks for coming and hanging. You got questions, drop them down in the comments. We do. Q And as Every single Friday, this is my favorite day of the week. I'll see you in the next one.