462 Breaking Down a 2 Person $600k/yr Accounting Firm

Are you serious? $600,000 out of two people? It's a real firm. I got the. I got the P and L to prove it. Today we're talking about how this firm and basically, what? Yeah, four years. Has grown to 600 grand in annual revenue with a whopping two employees. That's including the owner. What are they doing different? How can we steal some ideas from them? How many? I mean, tell me, how many jobs out there are there where you could go out, steal, start a business, and in 4 years be doing 600k top line with just you and another person running an accounting firm? Not a bad gig. Today we're talking about how this firm has positioned themselves, how they price what they do, and the workflow behind the scenes they use to make it all happen. Come on in. Let's talk about it. If you're new here, welcome to Jason on firms, we talk about running super cool, rad, calm, profitable accounting firms. And today we're talking about a very real firm who anonymously submitted to me their information. You can do the same. Check out the form down in the show notes. They submitted a bunch of info to me about their accounting firm. And in these episodes, you kind of have the chance to, like, play the coach. Like, put the coaching hat on, because oftentimes looking at other people and giving them advice, it's a whole lot easier than looking at your own firm. Right. So let's dig into what this firm is doing, give them a few ideas for what else they could do, even though they're kind of nailing it. But we'll all get a window into what I think is actually a pretty darn cool firm. So first off, let's start talking about positioning what they do and who they do it for, because everything else kind of flows down from that. The prices that you can command, what sort of workflows make sense. Those things all ought to be inherited from. Well, who are we going to do this stuff for? What are they willing to pay? What are the problems that they have and all that. So positioning this firm, they make about 60% of their money doing bookkeeping work and about 40% of their money doing tax work. This is a US firm, so a big percentage of their revenue is income tax stuff, as opposed to most of the rest of the world. If you're doing both tax and accounting, I find like 5 to 10% of income gets attributed to tax, whereas in the US usually, it's a bigger percentage. This is a US firm. They're. They're in. Oh, I don't I don't know, is that Midwest or south? They're in the middle West. They're not in a big market, but they're near some big markets. And as a result, most of the clients that they serve are from decent sized cities. This firm is 100% remote. They virtually never meet their clients face to face. In fact, the two people that work in this room, they don't even live by each other. They're a couple hours away. But who they work for, they serve dental clinics. And there's something about accounting firms and dental. What's the most common quote, niche or specialization? Probably real estate, but I gotta think a close second place for accounting firms gotta be dental. I'm allowed to say this because I ran a practice that was really heavy on dental. And if you're thinking about specializing and getting more specific in the type of client that you serve, oftentimes we'll see like one other person in that space and be like, wow, they're already doing it. It's too crowded. I can't do it. Now I can tell you there are so many accounting firms serving dental. So if you're worried about that niche being too small, take the success of this firm as an example. Like inside the dental world, there's some really, really big accounting firms, like massive ones that only do dental and have like these huge annual events, big productions and like massive technical resources. And you look up at firms like that like, well, I'm never going to be able to touch that. I can tell you that was the case inside of our firm. Like there were just some huge shops where we were like, boy, that's impressive what they're doing. And so I guess we're just going to win on price because they were these just huge kind of premier firms and all they served was dental. And for the clients on the dental side, it was like this point of pride to be able to work with that firm. Like if you are were a dentist or a dental group that was working with that firm, that was like a very impressive thing inside that community. But all that is to say for all the firms out there that tout themselves as dental firms, there was still room for this one. And as with most things, specialization, it's really hard for us to get our head around because the world is just kind of bigger than we can mentally process these days. And we kind of have to factor that into our decision making. Okay, so these serve dental offices, mostly general dentists, but some specialists and owners and the related owner occupied real estate. Natural progression for dentists run a profitable dental practice and then try to buy the building that you're in so that you can do a cost segregation on it and then offset actual operating income with that depreciation. Dental and dental, like owner occupied real estate, make up 85% of their client revenue. The other 15% is almost entirely two clients in different medical specialties, one orthopedic group and one ENT practice. But as a rule, they don't stray away from dental unless the fee justifies it. 25 a year or up 25,000, that is not 2500. Now, poking around this firm's website, they're at a stage where the website very clearly, clearly lays out front in the very first hero text. We are an accounting firm for dental clinics. No if, ands or buts about it. And sometimes when we see that, that actually can like spook us away from doing something similar in our own niche. But worth calling out the this level of specialization. Oftentimes a firm doesn't start here from day one because if you've got a client base that's a mishmash of a whole bunch of different things, it's probably really scary to be like, we're going to change that hero copy on our website to say we're only for these people. What about all these other people that we serve that do these other things? This is a firm that's further down the road than most of us are on that specialization journey. And in practice, you would only ever commit to branding yourself this specifically when it's clear that this is a slam dunk. That means the folks within this specialization, they're your most profitable type of client. And you know for sure that you want to go down this path. Starting specializing doesn't look like this. It's not this specific. Starting down the path of a specialty looks like a landing page on your website. Not the homepage of your website, but your website, forward slash, taxidermy stuff. That is step one, where your first taxidermy client or your tenth taxidermy client can, can come in. Step one isn't revamping the whole landing page, but this firm, they're further down that path than most of us. So right now they pull themselves out as exclusively working with dental clinics. And as much as that makes us think, well, that makes the world smaller, it actually does the opposite. It makes you stick out relative to every other vanilla accounting firm website out there because they're all just so generic, they don't really say anything. And when a client is going website to website and like price shopping or something like that. You've already lost the battle because you don't want to win on price. Now how have they grown this business? They have a few strong referral partners and they've got a few clients that will send them a few referrals per year. They've begun spending more on social media presence and web traffic, but haven't noted any wins from those efforts just yet. They have basically no marketing materials to speak of. They discovery calls happen over the phone, Zoom or Microsoft Teams, and then they follow up with an email summarizing kind of the scope of what they do and ballparking fees. They feel like they've got their onboarding nailed down pretty well, but the whole sales and marketing thing does not come supernaturally to them. But they've been able to get by thus far kind of just with these referrals. So when you're trying to get into a new specialization, consider who are the other businesses that have set up camp inside of that specialty? Every single space out there, you will have consultants, you will have attorneys. If you do tax, oftentimes you can find bookkeepers that specialize in that space. Same thing. Vice versa. If you do bookkeeping, you can also find tax folks that specialize in that space. What are the hubs? Is it podcasts, newsletters, like wherever those people collect? Oftentimes those are the best folks to get networked with because you can send work back and forth to each other. And that's largely how this practice has been built. Now, as we're going to get to, they are kind of bumping up against some constraints to where they may need to change some things if they want to grow past where they are right now. But positioning wise, I mean, all they've really done here is they say we are for this specific avatar. They're keeping people happy because those people are making referrals. But they haven't gone as far as to go out and like be in front of everybody, go speak at, you know, trade shows or do podcast interviews or anything like that. So this doesn't just work when you're doing like an all out marketing blitz. There's enough demand for what we do that this can work by just saying, yeah, I'm just for these types of people. Today's episode is brought to you in part by Teamup, who helps you directly hire talented accountants in the Philippines. But did you know that they can also help you hire an assistant? Did we do. I feel like we just did an episode not that long ago. We did about why you should have an assistant because if you want your team to learn the skill of delegation, buddy, all that learning starts at the top. And I know, I know I'm not the type of person that needs an assistant. Like it's like giving up. Gang. Here's the thing. You're gonna get stuff thrown at you every single day that is below you, that is beneath you. An assistant, they can help with that and the assistant can even help facilitate like getting some of those things to the right members of your team. This is ultimately an opportunity for you to drop the low value stuff that you're doing to upskill other folks for whom those same tasks are actually an opportunity. Now if you want to hire an EA in the Philippines, I'll give you the salary range. What this usually looks like one to three years experience working with US companies. They're usually gonna come in between $1100 and $1200 a month. That is USD full time. Three to five years experience between 1200 and 1400 USD and five plus years between 1400 and 1600 USD buddy. They're out there and they're good and they make a difference. I got an assistant. I'm not ashamed to say it and I think you should too. To learn more about Team Up JEPA help, check out the link down in the show notes. Today's episode is sponsored in part by ClientHub, the practice management system that delivers wow seasons year round. Not busy seasons. Seasons that will dazzle your clients for two reasons. One, Client Hub is drop dead simple, man. If you're too tired of a practice management system that just feels like you got to have a PhD and learning something new, Client Hub, you hop in. The vibes are great. It just all makes sense. But two. Remember, there's a second reason Client Hub offers a game changing client experience. That is you can actually get clients to like collaborate with you and be helpful on the platform. Because the portal wasn't this like afterthought. Bolt on now. Very cool. Recent development in Client Hub Magic Books Review Twinkle sounds so Client Hub syncs in the transactions from your QuickBooks file. You can run an AI analysis on it like from inside of Client Hub. It'll highlight any potential issues you can mark like on the balance sheet in the P and L, you mark each account one by one, whether or not it's been reviewed. But if you want to troubleshoot, it'll pull you straight back into QuickBooks like so you don't have to learn like a whole new troubleshooting tool. If you'd rather sort that stuff out in QuickBooks, other cool stuff it'll identify automatically. Expense inconsistencies, purchases without a payee, purchases and parent accounts. Why is. Why can we not disable that? QuickBooks. Large transactions, new accounts, new vendors, new customers. It's magic. Books review inside of Client Hub. I think you might like it. Learn more about Client Hub. Check out the link down in the show notes. I was talking with entrepreneur and, oh, it was a barber. Went to a new barber a few weeks ago, and he'd been doing this thing for like 15 or 20 years running his barbershop. And he'd never had a tax or bookkeeping professional that he'd worked with that was anything besides a generalist. And when I told him that there were people that served, like just salons and just barbers, he's like, hold the phone. Are you serious? Like, how do I get in touch with them? And to see his excitement in that just kind of like, reinvigorated my belief that even if we, the accountants on the other side of it are like, it's all the same. It doesn't make any difference. It's just marketing. Even if we think that the client doesn't like, the client wants that specificity. And in my experience, like, when you actually go down that path, you do find there's. There's more things that are different than you realize, because from the outside, you don't see the things that are different until you're into it. But I can tell you, the buyer, like, they're hungry for that for the same reason that you're tuning into a podcast about running accounting firms rather than a podcast that's just general business advice. Both can be helpful. They're just different. Okay, let's talk pricing. So their minimum is $15,000 per year. And this includes bookkeeping, business and personal tax returns, tax projections, and all the coordination that happens kind of throughout the year. 15,000 per year. That may sound like a lot. I would say it isn't for this type of business. This probably has room to go up that's, I don't know, 1500amonth, something like that. Little under that. 1300amonth. They say they'll charge extra for special projects, but nearly everything they do is within the scope described above. Some legacy pricing and standalone tax work, which we no longer offer, has our median annual price at 10,200. That is slowly climbing. Been around long? I'll just, I'll say it again. You've heard this before. Legacy projects are what keep Your current great projects from becoming your next legacy projects. Like everything in the lifestyle life cycle of running a firm is your A clients today will not be a clients forever. And there's kind of this romantic notion that we're going to like, serve this client until the end of time. And if you want to do that, that's fine. Just know that you're kind of parking the bus on what your firm is and what it can achieve as long as you make that trade off of not being willing to like, serve that next great client. And where this oftentimes goes sideways, having this romantic attachment to serving the same clients until the end of time. And when I say romantic attachment, I don't mean like that. Knock it off. But if you try to serve those same clients till the end of time, oftentimes your excitement for them, which is really high in the beginning because they're a clients, over time, it kind of wanes because other you've got other new shiny clients and they're kind of like those, those clients that used to be area clients. They're kind of an afterthought for you. They're like getting your leftovers now you don't have the same level of excitement for them. Meanwhile, they could be another firm's a client. Like, if we can detach ourselves from this needing to serve the same people until the end of time, we not only ensure that you are like, giving the very, very best of you to your clients, but we're also not blocking the next generation of accountants who are building firms from being able to serve those clients that you pass on. Like, you pass that client on to somebody who's at an earlier stage. And that client, like, they are the apple of their eye. They're, they're a clients, and so they're getting the very, very best of that person. And like, let's not fool ourselves into thinking that we are the only firm that's capable of what we do and that we are the very best firm and the very best person out there. The level of a client's experience, even inside of a single firm, will ultimately boil down to how much of that person's attention do they actually have. You can have two clients on the same firm where one client, the firm loves them, and they will just, there's lavish attention on that client. Client has an amazing experience inside of that exact same firm. You'll have clients where it's like, nobody really wants to work with them. You're not excited about it, and they'll have an awful experience. In my Experience. It is not about the firm as much as it is about how much of the firm's attention can they command. And clients you're no longer excited about serving, you're not giving them your attention, but there's somebody else who will. So my recommendation for this firm and for anyone, legacy projects are exactly what they are. They're legacy projects. Don't blame yourself for outgrowing a project that's no longer a great fit. That's not your fault, that's just growth. And be careful in the language that you use with clients and engagements and all of that to not make it sound like it's going to be a for everything. The wording I use is, is like, you know, each year we review the client list and decide who we're going to re engage with and work work with. The following year we will make that decision. But also you client, you get to make that decision. That's why we re engage every single year to kind of have a state of the union sort of chat and assessment. But it's by no means a foregone conclusion that we're going to be working together until the end of time. That helps you to separate the personal relationship from the business relationship because I can really like working with that person. But if I personalize the whole thing, then firing them becomes very personal as opposed to being like, hey, right now it makes sense for our businesses to work together. Doesn't mean it's going to forever be that way. But I can separate that from enjoying working with you so that it's not a big personal thing. On the subject of packaging, they've not done the, they called it the good, better, best packages that I endorse. They generally have one package that includes the bookkeeping, tax prep and tax projections and all communications. They say, I see the merits of it, but I've not been keen on giving multiple prospects or giving prospects multiple options. I've just found it easier to tell prospects, here's what we do and here's what it costs. I agree. And it's why my approach to three tier proposals is not the same as most people's. So I think you should be opinionated on the scope to say here's what you need based on what I understand about you, here's what it's going to take for this engagement to be successful. That shouldn't be negotiable. Like the traditional approach to the bronze, silver, gold, three tier options. Usually it's like, well, bronze is just bookkeeping or bronze is just once a year Tax silver is something slightly more. And gold is like mega tax planning and multi booking and everything. You know what that firm needs better than they do. So we ought to be opinionated on the scope to say, like, hey, you were bent out of shape with having to cut a big check when you filed your return last year. The only solution to that is tax planning. So if you really want me to fix your problems, like that's the only scope that I'm going to give you. What I instead want to build my Bronze Silver Gold around is on how premium that service delivery is. And so to give you a really basic example, every firm in all of our engagements, we need to have boundaries and expected turnaround times on who the client can work with inside of my firm and how quickly they should expect to hear back from us. Clients at the end of the day are like mice and amaze trying to get to the cheese. And if you, the firm owner, have a team of people around you, but you will respond to your client's texts because they've learned that that's actually a faster way to get a response than sending you an email, they will never send you an email again. If you will pick up the phone when they call you and they've found that that's a faster way to get to you than calling the front office, they will never call the front office again. And so your communication system inside of your firm, the design of that needs to be intentional. And if you reward behavior that cuts that line, then what's the point of having a team? So when we design our Bronze Silver Gold package, consider what's the level of expertise that that person has access to? Is it a staff level person, a senior person, a CPA or a director, whatever you want to call it, or, or the big boss? And then in addition to that, how quickly should they expect to hear back from them? That's a really basic example of where you can take someone from bronze to silver or silver to gold, just with greater access. And just like every buying decision that people make, there's a lot of people out there that will happily pay for the option that makes them feel more important or pay for some access that they may not even use. But the fact that you don't spend money that way is not a reason to not give our clients the option to do the same. So if Bronze clients can only email with you, they don't hop on calls, fine. If at the Silver option, they have to schedule a call, great. If at the Gold option, they can pick up the phone and call you and you'll actually answer, then they need to be paying a lot more for that. Also, as you're building out that bronze, silver, gold kind of those different options always, always, always communicate that only X, you know, packages at this tier are available. Because if it comes down to like speed and delivery and all that, that's, that's the truth is you can only effectively deliver that to so many people. So put it smack on the proposal. I was in, I was in San Diego and I put together a lunch this last week talking with a guy who's launched and run his own firm over the last few years. And we were talking about just kind of the, the strategies to employ just in that renewal and engagement and proposal process. Like there's so many little things that we can plug into that that have a huge impact on how much people are willing to pay you. Like that last, that little last mile of what the proposal looks like and what are the little factors we put in there. Like only three remaining at this tier, you know, the gold tier may be giving them early access to renew the following year because there's only so many packages available at that tier. Stuff like that people will very happily pay for. But oftentimes it's our own inclination to how we buy. Accountants, we are often the Camry drivers of society. And because maybe we don't spend our money that way, we don't give clients the opportunity to spend money that way on us. That's, I think, the better way to approach Baron Silver Gold. Because the reality is every single person you work with has a different willingness and ability to pay. And so setting up those tiers based on how premium the service delivery is not on scope, but on how premium the service delivery is, it better captures different willingness to pay from folks. Today's episode is brought to you in part by the fine folks at Cloud Accountant Staffing. As you know, my last four hires in my accounting firm were in the Philippines and this was in an 80 year old accounting firm. And I came into this with all of the ignorance that you would expect, but man, did it work. Like it completely changed how I approached hiring Cloud Accountant Staffing. The team behind it, it's actually an accounting firm, they started doing the same thing, had a ton of success, started doing this for like some of their like friends firms and now they're just, they're in the business of doing this for folks like you. So they get it and they understand all the questions you're going to have the first time you get into it. Like how does this person get a computer? Do they do it on their own computer? Do I. Do I send them a computer? The awesome thing about working with somebody like Cloud account Staffing, they've got recommendations for all of this stuff. All of these questions, questions that you haven't even thought of yet. If you're like me, you sat back with these questions and you were blocked on them for years until I just, I like talked to an expert and that would be my recommendation. Hop on a call with them. They'll have answers for all these questions, but you'll at least then be able to make a decision from a much more informed place. The scales will fall from your eyes. Doesn't mean it's going to be for you necessarily, but you're going to learn a bunch more, right? I can tell you it was for me if I went out and started a firm tomorrow. I'm probably 5050 offshore versus onshore hiring because I think I need both. But if you're looking for a place to get started, check out the folks at Cloud Accountant Staffing. They're going to be out on the conference circuit just like me this year as well. You may see them in the wild, but either way, check them out down in the show notes. Hey, quick word from one of today's sponsors. Me. Me. Yes. I run a community realize that is for accounting firm owners. And realize is kind of the secret behind how I've done all of my content and been able to like financially turn thought leadership into a business. About a hundred firm owners in there realize is a systematic way to build connections with other people firm owners. It's not a framework for how to run a firm. It's a way to introduce you to other super cool firm owners. Right now we're putting together small groups so you can have a group of like 5, 6, 7 other firm owners just like you that you meet with every single month run very similar firms. Having this for me, totally transformed firm running my North Star. Like, my goal for you coming into this group is to make a new best friend, somebody that runs a firm. Because that was what I needed in my journey. The whole community is built around that. It's called Realize. Link down in the show notes if you want to learn more. All right, other notes from their submission here, they raised fees every two years. I've heard your commentary on increasing fees every year and I agree with it. I just haven't done it. We will go up in 26. Increase your fees every year. And I'm not talking about inflation bumps. Are you Better than you were 12 months ago. Then who's paying for it? If you're listening to this podcast, you're not going backwards, guys. To charge what we're worth most, most clients, they bill monthly and they pull, they pull that money automatically for lower end tax. Only work about five grand and below, they draft the full fee for the year on January 2nd. Nice. They don't have any time and expense engagements and they don't maintain timesheets. So pricing wise, probably room to go up here. Still, in the progression of my dental cast practice, what we found was there were some other kind of adjacent service offerings that were much easier to staff than accounting and tax work that dentists would pay top dollar for. So a couple examples, we did these like end of day reconciliations. A problem that's very unique to dentists. And when you can find these unique problems, they're so valuable, you got to capture them. Problem unique to dentists is many of them still let patients pay with cash. And so a patient pays with cash. The person at the front desk posts that payments to like the client record. But then who's got to run that deposit to the bank and who ultimately reconciles the, that patient payment to what comes through the bank statement because they don't want to give the front desk person access to the bank. And so you either have the dentist wasting a bunch of time reconciling this stuff, or we can come in kind of a trusted third party, we can reconcile that stuff for them. Cash handling, the biggest, the biggest source of fraud and theft inside of a dental clinic. And we found dentists would pay top dollar for that because it put a lot of their fears of theft to rest. And simply their team knowing that we were in the loop, I would argue makes it less likely that they're going to get stolen from. And so this was something we would charge at a minimum like 800 bucks a month for. We could get that work done with like very low skilled staff. And we had kind of a standardized delivery of how we included that in the report package each month. Another big one for dentists can be kind of cash management. We got into doing bill pay for a lot of the dental clinics that we worked with. We already were doing payroll. But with bill pay and payroll, we could then very accurately project their cash out the next couple of weeks. So once a week or a couple times a week, we'd send them a little report of like what cash was looking like. That was another thing they were very happy to pay for because it could put their Fears of what's cash going to look like next pay run, put their fears of all that stuff to bed. Anytime you can find specific to that type of entrepreneur pains you can solve for them. That's a, that is a way better thing to sell usually or more profitable thing to sell than the bookkeeping or the tax work. Because most people come in to bookkeeping, tax and all that with preconceived notions of what that is worth. But if you're the only person that they know that will solve that very, very specific to you like to them problem, then they're willing to pay whatever pain or whatever cost there is to them. They're willing to pay much more because they're not coming into that thinking like oh, bookkeeping should never cost this or that much. Like I approach, I approach honestly, serving small businesses like as like bookkeeping and tax is my foot in the door. They're, they're the reason that they'll have a conversation with me. But then I ultimately want to run their back office. I want to be like accounting department in a box and find a bunch of adjacent pains that we can solve for them that are things that you would normally hire somebody to go do. And then that $1300 a month engagement, that conversation goes from tax and bookkeeping to how many people you got in your back office. How do they spend their time? What would you say if I could take half the time off of that $60,000 a year admin's plate and do that for you at a much, much higher level of expertise? And now that $1300 a month engagement is a $3500 a month engagement. And, and you're doing work that honestly in my opinion is much lower skill work than bookkeeping and tax. So that it's way easier to staff than the work that got them in the door. Last, let's talk workflow. They're all on Taxdome, qbo, Ultra Tax, soroban, Nice tally for and loom. They use taxdome for engagement letters. If you go to three tier proposals, I recommend using either ignition or anchor. There isn't a practice management system today that I think does a good enough version of three tier proposals. Yet unfortunately, for all the reasons that we talked about, the fact that your proposal is like that's where everybody says yes to a dollar amount. Like that is where the rubber meets the road. And, and anything we can do to optimize that experience is so, so important. So if you go down that path, I'd recommend you go to either ignition or anchor. For your proposals back to their submission here. Organizers go out through Soroban in January. Nice. Sorban, a tax intake tool. Clients get a weekly reminder email from Soroban until the organizer is completed. This was our first year on Soroban and we loved it. Fist bump. Good for you. Returns are worked on fifo. First in, first out. We have projects and process steps organized in Taxdome. We use Taxdome for E signature and delivery. It works fine. But then on the bookkeeping side, the two folks in this firm, they're in each client's QBO weekly. They have time blocked out each week. One person has Wednesday and Thursday morning blocked out. The other person does something similar. Unless they're waiting on clients for info, which is rare because they've trained them well. They said they'll meet that 15th of the month delivery deadline with relative ease. Even during the tax season. This firm, they don't extend anything. In fact, they extended only eight 1040s and 1s corp this year. And they're getting these financials out by the 15th of the month. No problem. How does that sound? Two employee firm, they're going to do 600 grand. Top line. The owner says tax season is busy, but the rest of the year works about 20 hours a week. Can we just thank our lucky stars that we do what we do? We get in our way in so many different ways, but boy, there's so many other industries that would just kill, absolutely kill for this to be their reality. Sometimes we just kind of gotta like put all this in perspective and be like. And, and just realize like gang, like do we have to do hard things and make hard decisions? Yes, but it's those hard things that we're willing to commit to that make everything else easier. The easy path is not hiding from those hard decisions like firing the legacy client or, or doing the scary specialization or something like that. The easy path is being willing to do those hard things. Because there are not as many gigs as good as this. There just aren't. Now what is this person enjoying the most? They love the management side and enjoy sales as well. They could do without the production work, but don't hate that either. The administrative stuff gets tedious, but tech has made that much better. This firm's crushing it, honestly. Like, there's obvious paths where they could hire more and they, they said they're looking at some offshore hiring for bookkeeping first and then offshore hiring probably for tax next. Only thing I would caution there is if the goal is to get out of the client relationship management, then Maybe I go, I would go onshore first. You know, I'm an advocate of offshore for getting the work done. But if you want to get out of the relationship management, I may start with onshore. But also ask yourself talking with somebody else about this at that San Diego lunch. Ask yourself, is what I have enough? Because being able to like, acknowledge when what you have is enough is maybe the hardest thing to do in entrepreneurship. And it doesn't matter like if Your firm is 10 times the size, you in all likelihood will still find yourself in that pursuit of enough. So before you complicate your life further, think really hard about whether you even need to do more. In fact, you can run a firm that is twice as profitable without growing the team at all by staying the same size. And when I say the same size, I mean serving as many clients. Because the cool thing is this is as worse. This is the worst that it will ever be. I mean, meteor strike, AI whatever aside, you stick with what you're doing. Serving the same avatar. Over time, the client list just gets more and more refined. Your fees go up and you make more money in less time. So even not growing, you will have a business that is more profitable. I to be more calm, probably working even less. So before you just arbitrarily go out and hire more folks because there's enough work for them to do, consider ultimately what the goals are. Because you got a pretty sweet gig right here as it is. Props to this person. Thanks for sharing their story too. Because we all learn from it, right? Like the fact that they took the time to submit this stuff. We all just got a bunch of value from that. And it's the same reason why you should submit some goodies about your firm at the form down in the show notes. See what I did there? Whether you're crushing it or whether you're not having these conversations, it's helpful. It's basically like the only form of consulting that I do, but it's kind of. It's done in public so that we can all benefit from it, right? You got any wisdom for this firm or any other thoughts like related to kind of your journey, Drop that stuff down in the comments. Like I said, there'll be a link to a, to a form down in the show notes if you want to do the same. Thanks to the folks who, who have lately, I can't guarantee we'll do every single one of them, but when you do, it creates kind of a cool opportunity for all of us to pick up some ideas. That's it. For today. Thanks for being here. I'm going to see you in the next one, okay? Till then.