465 Intuit Stealing Accounting Clients - Good or Bad?

Have we poked any bears this week? No. Okay, let's poke this one. The Intuit drama llama is back with them now reaching out to firms and offering to buy your tax clients. Intuit, the makers of. Of QuickBooks, of TurboTax, Mr. Steal, yo girlfriend used to be advisor first. Now they're kind of in the business of doing what accounting firms do while simultaneously selling software to accounting firms. But how should we feel about this? About them literally offering to pay accounting firms money to take their tax clients? People are understandably miffed, confused. I've got a take that may surprise you, but also, I want to talk about how this sort of shapes the future of where I think our industry is headed, especially in an age of AI. So trigger warning. We are going to say the word into it quite a bit today, but it'll be. It'll be constructive conversation. So let's do it. Okay, so I first saw this on Twitter. It was Matt Metris that posted it. It's an email that Intuit is selling, sending to folks and firms now. I'll just read it to you. As tax professionals, you pour your heart and soul into your clients. Oh, they understand. But the life cycle of your business is always changing. Whether you're thinking about retirement, scaling back to focus on your ideal clients, or simply have more clients than you can handle, we understand that's why Intuit created the client Referral Program to support you no matter where you are in your journey. The subject line here is refer your clients and get paid. Oh, ouch. I just realized this was from NAEA Partners. That's an oof. This feels. Oh, I don't know how I feel about that. That feels in some ways worse than the AICPA sending me Mercedes emails. In other ways, not as bad. Anyways, back to the email. Interested in learning more? Here's the bullet points. Get paid for your referrals. Whether you're looking to retire, downshift your client load, or just free up your time, you can earn money for every client you refer through the Intuit Client Referral Program. Ensure clients are in good hands. When you refer clients, you can be confident they're being taken care of by a qualified, experienced tax professional in our nationwide network. That's very not nondescript. I would almost expect, like, you'll have an account rep or like something that would instill more confidence than just all our people are good. Uh, last, focus on what's most important. Spend your time and energy focusing on your core business, whether that's serving your remaining clients, pursuing new opportunities or enjoying your well deserved retirement. Reaction here by and large has been pretty negative and it's completely understandable. This feels like, I mean it feels like we're like eight years into divorce proceedings within to it. And so anything they do we're like what the heck man? Get, leave me alone, get off my back. And so none of these things anymore are like viewed in a vacuum. It's always like the cumulative like oh great, now this the only like not outright negative reaction I saw. Somebody said this may make sense for some folks who like don't have a succession plan. And here's probably where I would disagree and how I think this plays into the future of where the profession's headed is there's always been a line that below which it had made. It has made more sense for a person to DIY their tax return or go to a retail tax shop or try to do it in TurboTax or something like that. And most tax bros we will, we will be very quick to tell people all you have is a W2, you don't need me. There's a bookkeeping version of this as well. Like there's a threshold below which where it's like just give me your bank statements at the end of the year or just check some stuff in Excel like this isn't that hard. There's not that many transactions. You probably don't need a bookkeeper for this. We'll just, we'll review it once a year. And for like whatever that threshold is on the bookkeeping side and the tax side, that threshold is set to continue to go up as these productized solutions get better just with the passage of time, but also with AI making it more realistic that these platforms can do a pretty good job at scale. A scale that's maybe difficult for accounting firms to match, but for a client profile that in my opinion is below what accounting firms ought to be serving. And maybe the most clear example of this today, a bookkeeping example and tax example. QuickBooks Live bookkeeping starts at $200 a month starts which is such an important stipulation. The only price you see is the starting price. It's not the price that most people pay, but that service is a benchmark for, you know, I shouldn't be touching anything anywhere near that universe because they're kind of defining the floor of the market. And at the floor of the market, when you work with them, you don't get a consistent person that you can call and talk to every single time like you're part of a Pooled thing. Like, it is a very different experience to working with an accounting firm where you actually build a relationship with someone that can in most cases do much more than bookkeeping. Something more akin to controllership is really what most bookkeeping firms do. But the service from an accounting firm is fundamentally different than a productized service like that. And thusly, we should not be pricing down to where the productized solutions are on the tax side. The best example we have of this is Turbo taxes. Like fully done for you small business offering where their federal only small business tax Prep starts at $1800 1.8 thousand freedom bucks. And I don't have the numbers on this, so I'll make them up. But I'm fairly certain that the average small business tax return, let's just say S Corps, if you took the fees for every S Corp tax return done in the United States in America and you pulled the median fee, let's say the median fee. The median fee. I am almost certain I'm, I am, I'm 1000% certain it is less than $1800. Like so many firms are doing returns for less than that. And that's Intuits, like federal only price. And let's remember what that is and what that isn't. That is working directly with a professional to get through the scope of that tax prep engagement. And that's it. When you come back next year, those people, that person that you were Talking to on TurboTax's full service offering, in the meantime, they will have found my podcast and my content and will be running their own firm that time next year and making twice as much money. So you get a new person and then the following year it's going to be someone new as well because they have a, you know, a huge pool of folks coming into this and like there's a whole other conversation around is what Intuit's doing good for the talent pipeline? I might get, I might get burned at the stake for this, but I think it is like it's an entry point. And if they have money and resources and all that to go out and find new folks and seduce them into the space for the first time. Like for somebody that may not be considering becoming a tax professional or becoming a bookkeeper, if they can see an offer from Intuit, that's like, oh, we'll send you through this training course and we'll have you doing this making X dollars a year within six weeks. That's a great path for a lot of people. And if you've been in this space long. You know, someone that's very, very good that started somewhere like that. Like the best tax guy I ever worked with started a Jackson Hewitt. Like that's very common where you have folks come in at kind of an entry level offering like this that may not have otherwise come into the profession if it were not for that kind of entry level offering existing. So like, I think that this is probably a good thing for the profession. In fact, there's going to be a whole bunch of people that work foreign to it in one of these roles that are listening to this podcast right now, to which I would say like and subscribe. You're at the beginning of an amazing journey that can give you just an incredibly like if you don't get in your own way and there's a million traps here. But like this can be an unbelievably great career running your own business with total control and all of the positives and negatives that come from that and so into it as your is your first step in that journey. Like awesome. That's super cool. But this notion of there being like this threshold, a threshold above which you want a firm to come and support you and a threshold below which a product I solution is fine, that that threshold is real. And as tax professionals, like I feel a duty to tell my clients if they're below that threshold, like, hey, you can go get a lower cost solution here, be it, you know, Liberty tax or TurboTax or something like that. Like I will happily send folks down to that. Now those services, they have a lot of their own issues for sure, and they can certainly bungle things and create problems. But this is where like I think good productized solutions need to exist in the market. We have to have that. Because I'm not going to come down and create and prepare an $80 tax return or an $80 a month bookkeeping project. Like most accounting firms, we are not set up in a way where we could ever do that profitably. You have a couple of phone calls, one thing goes sideways and you just blew up the budget for the entire project. Today's episode is brought to you in part by the fine folks at Cloud Accountant Staffing. As you know, my last four hires in my accounting firm were in the Philippines and this was in an 80 year old accounting firm. And I came into this with all of the ignorance that you would expect. But man, did it work. Like it completely changed how I approached hiring cloud account staffing. The team behind it, it's actually an accounting firm, they started doing the same thing, had a ton of success. Started doing this for like some of their like friends firms. And now they're just, they're in the business of doing this for folks like you. So they get it and they understand all the questions you're gonna have the first time you get into it. Like, how does this, how does this person get a computer? Do they do it on their own computer? Do I, do I send them a computer? The awesome thing about working with somebody like cloud account staffing, they've got recommendations for all of this stuff. All of these questions, questions that you haven't even thought of yet. If you're like me, you, you sat back with these questions and you were blocked on them for years until I just, I like talked to an expert and that would be my recommendation. Hop on a call with them. They'll have answers for all these questions. But you'll at least then be able to make a decision from a much more informed place. The scales will fall from your eyes. Doesn't mean it's gonna be for you necessarily, but you're gonna learn a bunch more, right? I can tell you it was for me if I went out and started a firm tomorrow. I'm probably 50, 50 offshore versus onshore hiring. Cause I think I need both. But if you're looking for a place to get started, check out the folks at Cloud Accountant staffing. They're gonna be out on the conference circuit just like me this year as well. So you may see em in the wild, but either way check em out down in the show notes. This episode is sponsored in part by Thin Daily. Did you know? Here's some pretty good Jason on firms lore. Did you know I once founded and sold a SaaS app? I did. True story. It's the app that is the sponsor of this video, this podcast. Where am I right now? The app was Finn Daily. Let me tell you all about it because it was after. It was my brain, baby. So here's the thing. My firm got into doing like cash advisory work and cash reporting for clients where we'd send them these reports every week or every day to kind of show them like that very short term sort of upcoming cash situation, like everything leading up to the next pay run and all that. So he'd send these emails that were kind of sort of templated, but it's like a manual thing of pulling together all this different information every single time. So I built Fin Daily to be almost like a templated email platform where you just pull in variables from accounting apps, from like banking Connections, all that. So imagine drafting an email template, but inside of that template having placeholders for upcoming bills from the accounting file for the credit card balance, all these different variables, and it pulls those values right before it sends the email. Now the team now has built it out to do a bunch more stuff, like a bit of math to roll up several figures so that what it presents in the emails is like the total connecting multiple different accounting files so that all that stuff is piping into like one email summary. Super, super cool. Frankly, I'm still in love with it. Like the whole concept of just this automated email that up pops, pulls in live data at send time and then goes out to a bunch of stakeholders that your client could go to you. But the whole premise is it's like a super connected email template. You could use the same one with all your clients, different ones with different clients, but just think like you got a client with a bunch of entities, how you can roll all that up into an unbelievably good digest to send them every single day, every single week. And the reason I built it, clients will pay really, really good for this. It's a super useful service. Anyways, learn more about Finn Daily. Check out the link down in the show notes. People need to have access to good help at a level that is below what an accounting firm can provide. Like we need, we need that. And I would argue right now there's actually way too big of a gap between productized help and professional help. Professional being like an accounting firm that you can have a persistent relationship with, it is really hard to come down to a $200 a month bookkeeping project if you're a firm like goodness sakes. And so most firms where they're setting up is like kind of the done for you month over month. Stuff like the bare minimum is probably 800 bucks a month. But that's a really big jump up from the product solutions at the bottom of the market. And so personally I don't have a problem with that gap being closed. Like I think that's a good thing for entrepreneurship if the gap is closed and combination of AI and product solutions just getting better over time. The inevitable, inevitable thing that happens here I think is, is they all come up market and in some ways, like for some firms that will be problematic. So for the people that are not charging enough right now, maybe they just like they haven't found that confidence yet. They're not there yet in their journey. When a productized solution is getting more expensive every year, there's maybe a Risk where you're like, oh, have I set up camp where they're now serving? I think people oftentimes see that as a risk. If anything, like, if we really boil that down to, like, put the hat on of that practitioner who's in that position, what I would be doing is I would have a very, very clear explanation. Think of it like software comparisons where they put like a whole table of features in each column as a different software tool. Make that comparison of what you do versus what product solutions do, and you will see what you do as fundamentally higher touch and more premium. So that if you still have clients that are complaining about price and they, they are out there, there will still be clients that will complain about price. Even though you're like, cheaper than any productized solution, you cannot go low enough. I mean, people complain about completely free things. So, like, there will never be a price low enough to where folks don't complain about price. But if ever you wanted a great sort of proof point of the value of what you do, point somebody to a productized service offering, say, here's what I do that's better than all of them. And like, that is kind of the best anchor point we have for a quote, unquote, correct answer for pricing. So even if you are set up to where you're not charging as much as these product services, see that as an opportunity where, okay, maybe we got to have egg on our face and rip this band aid off and be like, sorry, clients, we kind of just totally got the pricing wrong and we got to make a big change. I mean, pretty much everybody does that, like, if not one time in their career, many times in their career. So, like, do not feel shame about that. We all get it wrong because honestly, we're perpetually kind of blown away at our own value, and that's a hard thing for us to grow into. Like, the whole notion that sort of your external reality, what other people see when they look at you, that's always ahead of our internal identity. For most people, this is the case. We're capable of more than we actually think we are because we're thinking about what we used to be, not what we're capable of doing next. And a byproduct of this is perpetually underpricing what we do and getting sticker shock at prices that we put out that the right client is happily, like, yeah, no problem. And honestly, oftentimes would have often paid, like, much more. So even for the, for the firms at the bottom of the market, this can be an opportunity because we can frame what we do relative to productized solutions. Now, a bit of context. I've shared this story before on the podcast, but we're 460 episodes in. I think I've. I have the right to repeat stories now. In my cast practice, which I launched from nothing, we grew it super fast. Added like one and a half million in 18 months. And it was from pulling clients from our tax business over to cast services. So it wasn't the same as going out building a cast service from scratch. But we grew it super fast, tried to do it in a really premium way, but ultimately ended up with a whole bunch of clients that still needed, had bookkeeping needs that I didn't frankly want to service myself because they were really basic, either very small businesses or entrepreneurs that just have like the stupid like rental LLC and just those little trivial things. So we built a relationship with Bench Bench, the productized bookkeeping platform. This was seven or eight years ago. I was Bench's biggest accounting partnership. So we sent a whole bunch of clients to them. We had sort of a partnership deal where like the clients would work directly with a bench bookkeeper. But the, I mean, at the end of the day, the experience our clients got going to Bench was very different than if you just went to the bench landing page and signed up. Because our firm like being their biggest partnership, we got the very best bookkeepers of their sort of annual crop. They hired something like 300 bookkeepers a year or something like that. And it was a huge amount of churn cash. Cause these are all kids straight outta college. They're not getting paid very much to do this. But we were kind of the bottom of that hiring funnel where we got the best of the best that would work on our projects. So our clients that worked with Bench, they didn't get the same experience as a random person that would go up to Bench. But for us, for my firm, this was a great arrangement. Basically where we drew their line was like any engagement that I can't charge more than I think it started at 800, 800amonth, but eventually went to 1200amonth and then 1600amonth. Any monthly engagement where I couldn't charge above that threshold, they went to Bench and the client worked directly with that Bench bookkeeper. And then more premium versions of that, like the silver version was you would work with one of my accountants. And the gold version was you would work with like, you know, a CPA or like a manager level type person. And many times in those situations it was even still Bench doing the books behind the scenes. But clients were willing to pay more than 2x for access to greater expertise or a person that was perceived to be higher level. So we did various different versions of this where the client would go directly to Bench and just work with them and then we would do the year end tax stuff. We did versions where they were sort of the back office for our smaller, more simple accounting projects. And what it ultimately allowed me to do was to kind of have this threshold within our firm where I'm like above this threshold. It's worthwhile for us to do it below this threshold. It's not. And that was very specific to our firm what that threshold was because we were growing fast. I couldn't hire fast enough. It was higher cost than building it in house. The reality was though that I didn't have time to build that in house the way that I wanted to. So over time we would make the decision like, do we want to slow our growth and staff up and take some of that back in house and it'd be a little higher margin or do we just want to accept it? Like yeah, we're never going to make a ton of money on that small stuff, but we're happy to help those people out. Let's just keep looking forward at the bigger, more ambitious stuff that is higher margin and just focus on that. I think my experience with that being generally positive when most, almost everyone's perception of Bench is very negative because it's, it is just an entry level service service and there's only so much that you can do there. Like it is a volume game. So it's never going to be a great experience. Like you're never going to work with a super, super high level person there. And the folks that work at Bench, like by and large that is a step to something else. Like there's going to be people listening to this that worked at Bench. Maybe now they work for somebody else. Maybe now they work for their own firm, similar to going to work for Intuit. Like for many people it's just kind of a stepping stone in their career journey. But that was a good experience for me. So I think I kind of have a different perspective on stuff like this that is selling part of my business or partnering with, with a provider to get some of this stuff done. I've told a lot of Intuit people there's a version of Intuit or QuickBooks Live bookkeeping that accountants can absolutely get behind. Like in the same way that I did with Bench, like where you can be A back office for some of our clients or for the clients that maybe I just want to do annual tax work for right now. The way it's set up, like, you don't get a relationship manager. There is no stickiness in the people that solve and the people that serve your clients. The difference in the model that I had worked out with Bench was like, we knew all of our bookkeepers very well who worked with our clients. So all those relationships were nailed down. We really liked those people. Sometimes we had to change some of those folks out, but my firm, like that was part of our partnership, was we knew all those folks, even though they worked with Bench, like they were still kind of part of the squad and would be in conversation when we were working with clients like it was truly a partnership. What Intuit's proposing here is more just like selling your clients and then they take it over. This is more akin to like going to an ADP or a paychecks or something like that and selling your, your payroll business and them just sort of taking it over. I don't think that this is an alternative to selling to other accountants. What I see this as is a way to send clients who are below the threshold for what firms ought to be doing. This is a way to send those clients to Intuit. And frankly, I'd rather send it to somebody who was not into it. But I think this is why I don't object to this one all that much, is the only clients that Intuit and TurboTax have business serving are the ones who are below that threshold, who are simple enough to where that's fine, that's good enough. Will they still screw stuff up? Sometimes they will, but is that a reason for all of us to run out and try to do 100 and 200 and 300, $400 tax returns? It isn't like, that's not. I'm not, I'm not going to die on that hill. On behalf of every single entrepreneur out there, this episode is brought to you in part by Carbon, the practice management system. I had the opportunity recently to participate in an event that Carbon put together where they, they brought together a whole bunch of Carbon firms. And I'll be honest, I think it was a cool event. But the thing that most blew me away was, like, the quality of the firms there. And if, like, if we can get, if we can get real on tech selection and how we build our tech stacks and accounting firms, practice management systems today, they've never been more similar than they are now, for sure. They're still different. Each one has strengths and weaknesses and all that. We got to understand that when we're picking our practice management system. But you know what goes a really, really long ways for me when I can look at a whole bunch of firms that I respect and I'm like, can you just tell me what they're using, man? A lot of them, a lot of them are using carbon. And I'm increasingly seeing this among firm owners is if you have friends that run other firms and you're in constant contact with those people that actually like kind of auto impact how you pick your team tech. Because if you have those close relationships where you're like, hey, what do you do with X, Y and Z? Like how do you handle this or that and can get immediate answers from like real people that run firms and have worked through these things, that's something that has absolutely nothing to do with the product, but makes that product tremendously more useful. So this ad read, while it has absolutely nothing to do with the carbon product, which is like very good and they've been in my top recommendations now for several years, but like sometimes the ultimate proof is what are the big brands using? And I can tell you there's a whole lot of very smart, very progressive firms that we should aspire to sort of build ourselves to be similar to a lot of those firms that are running carbon. Learn more about Carbon. Check out the link down in the show notes. This episode is brought to you in part by guess who. Wrong. Client Hub. Client Hub is the practice management system that makes every season wow season, not busy season. We're delivering wows, buddy. That's, that's, that's for two reasons. One, because Client Hub provides a game changing client experience. It's designed with the client in mind. First, not like this afterthought bolt on portal. But second, it's drop dead simple, okay? It's not any harder than it needs to be. And one of the really cool things that they've got is magic email. So you actually use ClientHub as your email client. Some things you can do beyond just like some niceties they've had like creating work from emails, being able to pin an email, you can actually even reassign a pinned email to someone else. But in that screen where you're authoring an email, like client sends you an email, you get some AI options down at the bottom to generate a like a yes reply. Like it will look at the context of the thread and draft a response is basically yes a button to draft a no reply. And then an AI composer where I can give it a custom prompt and have it draft that response. Got some other buttons for like, change in tone, expanding the length of it, shortening it. Using AI to try to take, try to take the pain out of email because frankly, email just sucks. So if you're looking for a delightfully simple yet powerful practice management system, take a look at Client Hub link down in the show notes. Now, if I have clients that are above this threshold that are no longer a fit for me, like, they, they are too complex to trust to like a TurboTax or something like that, but I'm no longer, I, I, I've outgrown them. That's a client that I need to send to another practitioner. Like, those clients are either above the threshold or they're not. And if they're above the threshold of what TurboTax ought to be serving, build out your network and like, find the folks that you can send those clients to. We talk about that a lot where you're C and D clients or somebody else's AMB clients. But if those clients are below the threshold of what a, what any firm should be serving, if it's $200 a month bookkeeping or something like that, that's where I don't have a problem sending it to another service. Now, I would love a version of a service I could partner with where there was some stickiness and I knew the people that were doing the work and all of that. Like, if somebody builds that, I will happily get behind it. But I think this is why I maybe don't see it quite so much as like, you know, theft or something like that, because I think there's just, there's a type of tax return, there's a type of bookkeeping project that we just, we have no business touching because we kind of can't make money on it. Now, to me, this is less egregious than, than what Intuit has done for decades, which is send mail to you and your staff saying, hey, want to come be an Intuit tax professional and come and work for Intuit. Like, the fact that they would literally send that stuff to your staff at your accounting firm's address, like, bro, chill out. Like, that's, that's a big time party foul. To which I would say the way you get back at that is you'll see these a lot during tax season and then lead up to tax season, TurboTax will run paid ads on say, LinkedIn and say, come be a, come be a TurboTax. You know, tax preparer, whatever that is. And that's great. And that's the net effect of that is probably getting more people into the pipeline than would otherwise be there. But if you look at into the comments of every single one of those, you will see annoyed clients who were not taken care of well by TurboTax and annoyed employees who did not have a good experience working for them. Both of which could be an opportunity for your firm. I'm just, I'm just saying, could you slide into those people's dms? I know. Whoa, whoa. I'm just hang. That was your idea, not mine. But is that basically what Intuit's been doing for decades? Mailing people at my firm? Hey, this is your internal monologue, okay? Not, this is not me. That, that to me is actually the whole, like, trying to get your staff to come work for Intuit. That's much more egregious than we made this partnership thing. And now you can sell your clients to us, I guess. Done right. Nobody should be selling clients that are too complex for TurboTax to. To serve. Nobody should be selling those folks to TurboTax. The folks that are below that threshold where TurboTax can serve them. In some ways, it's like I was probably already going to send that person to an H and R Block or Jackson Hewitt or something like that. Does this mean that I just get paid for doing so? I would love to have a better thermometer for which of those services is best for which type of client. But am I mad that they're offering me money to send them that stuff? Personally, no, I'm not. And when I talk about Intuit this way, like, people get mad because it is such a divisive thing. But I mean, let's be real here. For how many of these people who are pissed on these threads every time Intuit things come up? How many people who are absolutely livid about it are still giving Intuit their money, still using Intuit products every single day? When, as we've detailed on this podcast, I had my 1600 client, 40 person firm off of Intuit products in 2018. Because that's a thing that you can do. People think, still think that you can't. But if you really want to, like, you absolutely can. I'm sorry. I'm sorry we got drugged, dragged through the muck today, gang. It was just hard to avoid titles like this. They perform pretty well. I don't like that this is the game that I'm forced to play any more than anyone else. All right, I do think it's an interesting conversation though, especially as that threshold, like, changes over time. Like, I do think that AI is going to be good enough to where these solutions get much more compelling. But right now there's enough of a gap where there's like those middling clients that are too cheap for us, but are still too complex for these productized services. I think there's enough of a gap there that I kind of want these productized services to get better. And worst case, like the accounting firms who are pricing too low, it ought to push them up market, like, kind of force their hand, which is not the worst thing in the world. But where that threshold develops into like, what it looks like down the road, there's a lot of people that think, well, AI agents this and that, like tax prep and bookkeeping and all that. AI is just going to be doing all that stuff pretty soon, right? Well, what does that actually look like in practice? If some of that does come to come to bear, all it means is that productized solutions are able to come up market further. How far will they come up market? We don't know yet. But you and I know they haven't come up market all that far yet. And many accountants are still struggling to like, kind of doggy paddle, stay above that threshold. But if there is a future timeline where five years down the road, AI is unbelievably good and AI can just quote, unquote, do my tax return, what does that look like in practice? It looks like productized services coming much more upmarket. So what is the solution for you and I is to keep going up market is to not get like, caught by that wave. And if the worst case scenario for accounting firms is actually there's a smaller number of entrepreneurs that need to work with accountants, is. Is that the worst thing? I mean, obviously right now there's way more people out there that need us than we can possibly hope to serve ourselves. But to be able to work with like a more select group of folks that like, just need, like the accounting ninjas that are left and still needed, like, we're just working with the most complex, like, unique sort of things, that's all we do. That's our business is like just working with those entrepreneurs for whom the general solutions are not good enough. Man, I can tell you, like, I would pride myself in being that person, like the heroes who are there to support the folks that otherwise can't be helped by the tools of mere mortals. That's what we're doing. Then, like, we're serving the last holdouts of the people for whom AI was not enough. That's the like the like AI asteroid like most aggressive sort of scenario and it still sounds kind of fun. If we are kind of the last holdouts helping those people out feels unlikely to me but as a worst case scenario not that bad. If you know any more about this or if you've actually done this, if you've sold any clients to Intuit, if you've referred folks to these services, I would love to just hear your anecdote of what was good about that and what was not. Drop that stuff down in the comments. It's super valuable information for anyone who's considering this sort of thing and I think real experience like that moves the conversation forward and in a productive way so we're not just speculating about it. Right gang, that's it. We'll be back to we'll be back to much more wholesome programming in the next episode. I'll see you there. Sa.