165. Faith And Freedom In Infinite Banking

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From constitutional lawyer to epic podcast host. The journey of an entrepreneur in the Alberta quadrant. We are joined together today by my friend and partner Jason, of course and Leighton Gray, who is an incredible litigator, well known in the Canadian space and he launched in 2022 the gray matter Podcast. Now this is a very interesting and wonderful podcast with a curation of intelligent conversations, thought provoking leaders all over the world tackling topics that are often taboo and outside of the box. We're very excited to have you on the podcast today, Leighton. We got connected of course recently because I was invited to join you on your incredible show, which was a huge and tremendous honor for me to be a part of your program and reciprocity, of course. And also just because you're an amazing guy to talk to with so many wonderful lessons to share with our listeners. We're excited to have you on our program today.

Yes, it's my pleasure, guys. I'm really looking forward to the, to the conversation.

Let's begin with what inspired you to become an attorney?

That's a, that's a really great question. I've been asked a lot. I'm going to answer it this way. And I get asked that question in combination with this one. You know, what does it take to be a lawyer? What kind of a person would want to be a lawyer? And I sort of answer those in the same way and that is my inspiration is that as a young person I wanted to do something that was going to be different all the time because I'm very easily bored. I'm insatiably curious. And so you want to, you have to be the sort of person who doesn't like the mundane, is trying to escape that. So you have to be curious. That's number one. Secondly, you have to really like solving problems because that's really what you're doing and I'm sure it's no different for you guys and the work that you do. People come to you with problems, they, they need your help and, and you get joy out of Helping them see them, you know, achieve their dreams and get them over little hurdles or big hurdles. And that's a big part of lawyering as well, is this you have to love to take apart problems and try and solve them. But the number one most important factor and the reason why I wanted to be a lawyer and I think is the most important ingredient, ingredient, if you will, is you have to really want to help people. If you really, if you don't want to help people, you're not going to be any, any earthly good in any sort of service providing role. And as a lawyer, you are a service provider. And sadly, some lawyers in their profession don't see themselves in that way, which I think is the proper light that's a true vocation for a lawyer, is someone who helps other people solve problems by applying a particular type of knowledge and acumen and skill. And so those are the main ingredients, the intangible that I think separates people like me who are litigators from lawyers who are not, is you have to be highly competitive. Because unless you have a really strong competitive drive, unless you don't get excited about going up against other lawyers, and if you don't have a strong drive to win and achieve results, then.

You really can't survive in the game against the kind of people that populate the courts. So those are the main things that I think got me into it. I've always been very competitive, had a background in sports, but mainly, you know, I just, I, I can't handle anything that's the same all the time. And I really enjoy solving problems and I love helping people. So that's it in a nutshell.

I would imagine being a litigator and, and with a specific forte in the constitutional zone of, of law practice, you've gone up against some of the Goliaths, you know, in a David Goliath type battle for, for your clients. And I'm curious, you know, as you think about that competitive nature and, and taking on large and big types of litigation cases of that nature, I would imagine it comes with that challenge. But also there's some stresses involved because, you know, you may not get compensated your law firm, you know, depending on how that situation until like a case is won and some of these things drag out for years and years and years, I would imagine. So, you know, for, from an entrepreneurial perspective, just thinking about some of the journey and the issues that other types of entrepreneurs also face, you know, how has that showed up in your life a little bit if you shared with that?

Well, I'VE always been. I started out in government practice. I articled at the Federal Department of Justice. Articling is a sort of apprenticeship that lawyers go through. Law students go through when they graduate, during the year when they write the bar examination. And I was at the Federal Department of Justice, which was great because it's really the largest. At the time it was the largest law firm in the country. Really great lawyers. I got to work on cases that were going up in the Supreme Court of Canada and really some really terrific lawyers and mentors there. And that was great. But I also learned within that year that I was not cut out for government life. I wanted to be. I always had a strong entrepreneurial streak. I wanted to be independent. I've always been someone who is not terribly risk averse. In fact, I'm sort of the guy who gets pulled back. I'm the one going over the cliff. A lot of times my partners will tell you I want to go over a cliff. And I figure I can build a parachute or an airplane or something on the way down. And sometimes, you know, I land like Wale Coyote. But as you know, he never dies. He just keeps sending away for more stuff from Acme. And so, and so that's kind of my approach. And so I've taken that into, you know, into my approach to my practice. And so I got into private practice now about 28 years ago. And the practice grew from sort of a small smattering of things like criminal law, family law, that type of thing, into something much larger where I was involved, for example, in the, in the National Indian Residential School class action. And I represented more than 300 claimants in that process. And we've had, you know, large scale personal injury cases and I've done, you know, murder trials in front of juries. So I've been able to experience a lot of that. And through all of it, I think, and this would probably resonate with many business people out there. I've been very, very fortunate to have some great mentors in the practice of law. But also I've had really wonderful partners. And I found that I've been through a couple of business divorces that I got into initially good people, but I just found out that we were not on the same page, entrepreneurially speaking, and, and so amicable, you know, parting. But the, the partners I have right now, you know, I've discovered over time that the most important thing about being in business with someone else is you have to have a shared set of values. You have to kind of want the same things. And also in our situation, we have four partners and we all have distinct personalities. We all bring different things to the table. And some of us are more conservative or reactionary in our thinking. Some of us are more, let's go over the cliff, over the falls in a barrel. And we have great conversations and we learn from each other, we support each other, whatever happens. And I think those are the big keys that have made our business successful is being in business with the right people, great people with a shared set of values. Because you don't have that shared, that, you know, that sort of shared set of values. You really. There's, there's no future for the business and no future for any relationship, whether it's a friendship or a marriage or a business partnership or relationship with a bank. You know, unless you have a shared set of values, you know, there's, you know, you're going to hit a wall eventually. Richard knows where I'm going with that one.

And, you know, one of the things that I was really excited just to, to address in conversation with you is that when. So in, in our business, in our practice, when a client begins their journey and they, they put a policy in place or a system of policies in place, and we use language in our education and our description of the attributes of a policy, we refer to it for what it's correct characterization as a unilateral binding contract. And sometimes those words can be lost.

In terms of not really having a grasp on the significant advantage that that represents when.

Right.

If you contrast that with a variety of other financial products and instruments that are available to, to the consumer. When you're dealing with a unilateral binding contract that has very specific contractual guarantees and elements that are all designed to protect the policy owner, that is significant. And I'd love to hear just respecting your area of purview and what you do in practice. But I just love to hear what came up for you and your insight when, when you discovered that.

Well, what you mentioned there is really one of the things that really intrigued me and attracted me to, to Mr. Nash's whole concept of becoming your own banker. And one of the beautiful things that he does and he gives, even though he's not a lawyer, I have to say he gives one of the best descriptions of the, the essential power of a contract and the unique power that is, that says that can be unleashed in people's lives. You know, this concept of a contract is really quite unique to Western law. It grows out of the, the common law tradition and really, it's, it's. It shapes so much of our Western culture and traditions and law and business. But I think one of the things that really attracted me to, and what I really appreciated about Mr. Nash's book is how he describes how this. You can make the power of that contract work for you. That it's something very unique in our law and really not clearly understood. Most people go around in their daily lives and they're oblivious to the fact that, that at every moment of their lives they are living or engaging in some type of contract. They carry around these pocket computers and there's a contract with Bell or Telus or Rogers or whoever there. They go into a store and they buy a coffee at Starbucks or Tim Hortons. Well, there's a contract occurring there, you know, even, even in their daily lives with, with your, with your wife or your spouse, there's a form of contract. There's, you know, the lease on you, on your car, your insurance contracts for your house. Everywhere you go, you are confronted by this law of contract. And you'd better understand it and get to appreciate what it's all about if you, if you want to be able to take advantage of it. Because oftentimes, if you don't understand how those contractual concepts work, they can work against you. And, and so that's one of the great things about the book that I really enjoyed. And, and, and actually, I mean, I have. I've used some of the language in, in his book to, to explain, you know, contractual concepts to clients. I mean, there's an old adage that every. That a good lawyer is a good thief in the sense that we steal the best ideas everywhere we go. Right. And definitely.

Great invoicers.

Sure. Well, there you go then. Another type of contract. Right, right. The retainer. There you are. Right. And so it's very important that people understand because within that, that contract is great power and potentially, potentially the type of financial freedom, the type of freedom that people are. Are looking for. The ability to. Wow. To be your own banker. That's like a dream. And so, yes, I was very attracted to that. And the one thing that also attracts me like a moth to a light bulb is whenever we get into conversation about freedom, because I happen to think, and this is getting into my own faith life, I'm a Christian, and I happen to believe that the natural state of human beings is to be free. And to the greatest extent, that we pursue freedom, I mean, I mean true freedom in terms of being able to live out our dreams and live lives that are meaningful and free of pain and sin. That to that extent we are living out our best lives, the lives that we were meant to live and, and, and really the life that our Savior lived and, and the reason why we were redeemed is to live that way. That's how we're supposed to live, is to be free. And so I'm very attracted by any concept that, that really gives to human beings the ability to be intellectually or financially and spiritually free. Because anyone nowadays living in, in the west or anywhere in the world, if you're not tuned into the frequency of freedom, you're probably not understanding what's going on in the world or what's going on in your own backyard.

Amen to that. Completely and wholeheartedly agree with you. And.

It brings us to and reminds us of when we're in conversation with others, financial freedom, like we discussed prior to recording that, you know, it's, it's something to be created, not pursued.

Right?

Since that, you know, you've heard the expression the pursuit of happiness or. Well, that's, it's not a pursuit, it's something that is created. And so when you're, when you're giving, putting the best tool for the job in the hands of someone and you're giving them a tool that empowers them to create.

Financial freedom for themselves and their families and their employees, if they're a business owner implementing the process, you're really, you're really doing a great service to others. Not to mention that as Nelson would have shared had he been with us today, God rest his soul, he would have shared that there's a death benefit thrown in for good measure.

Right? Right. How great is that? How great is that?

You're bestowing some measure of happiness on the people who mean most to you. One of the books that I, that I was reminded of when I was learning about Mr. Nash and his financial philosophy is a book by Dennis Prager, who's written a number of wonderful books, if you're familiar with Prageru. But he wrote a book in the late 90s called Happiness is a Serious Problem. And in that book he really explains that most people's, our concept of happiness is really wrong headed. Most people think of happiness in terms of a destination or the avoidance of pleasure or the avoidance of pain, the pursuit of pleasure. But actually what Mr. Prager talks about is, and this taps into the sort of the Judeo Christian ethic is that happiness is that wonderful fleeting feeling that you get when you are, when you know that you are doing something good. Right. It's sort of like the feeling that you would have, you know, you. You're helping an old lady cross the street.

Yeah.

Or maybe the feelings the Good Samaritan had, you know, in. In the New Testament, you know, that type of. But it's. It's not something you can hang your hat on and pin your. It's a journey.

Right.

And. And the journey is not towards happiness, but it's towards some understanding of living a meaningful life. And I happen to think that's what Mr. Nash was really talking about. He was talking about helping people become financially free or in control of their finances so that they could live more meaningful lives and have the money that they need to do the things that matter most to them and to live out their best selves in terms of their. Know, their work, their businesses, their families, their futures, and to create wealth. Wow. This beautiful, beautiful gift of generational wealth. Generational wealth. That's. That's the one thing that I think. I mean, what. What is. What is a better gift that you could leave to your descendants beyond, you know, the memories that you shared with them? Just part of the concept. But this generational wealth so that, you know, going forward, they'll. They'll never have to worry about, you know, paying back the bank and paying off. The type of things that. That make it hard for so many people to just put their head on their pillow at night and go to sleep. The types of things that give people ulcers and anxiety and heart attacks and strokes. You know, it's no wonder that he lived such a long, long life. And he might not have lived as long as he. As he had if he hadn't been working so hard to bring so much freedom and happiness to other people. And I watched some of the videos of Mr. Nash, you know, when he was getting into his later years, and it was remarkable to see how motivated, how inspired he was to share these concepts in these ideas with people. You know, that's. That's. I mean, when you look at that, that's a meaningful life, you know, And. And so I really found. I find him and his message and this concept of, you know, infinite banking to be. To be, you know, in a true sense, inspirational. It's not just money that. I think that's a miss. If people read what Mr. Nash wrote or listen to him, I think, and they think that, then I think they're just getting a small piece, maybe one. One straw in the bundle of what he was trying to teach people.

What a joy it was to know him and to just be blessed beyond measure to have been mentored by him for so many years. And.

I think that you would have gotten along very well with him. And he was just such a.

It was always great to. To be around him. He had just such a great way of being so generous with his wisdom and his insights and his knowledge. And he was brilliant, absolutely brilliant at getting you to think about your thinking. He would. He would occasionally send a book with a little handwritten note, and it would read, once you get through chapter three, I want you to think about it and call me.

And so you had your marching orders, and, you know, you get through chapter three, and you pick up the phone and you call them, and he would share a conversation with you to draw out your thinking. And he would. He would always save his wisdom and insights until the very end of that process because he really, truly wanted to understand what you were thinking. And there was always. Whenever he did that, there was always an embedded lesson. There was something that he wanted you. He wanted you to arrive there.

On your own thinking path. He didn't want to just point it out to you.

Right. He was just the definition of. That's a definition of mentorship, isn't it?

Yeah, absolutely.

You know, and Galileo said this. Galileo said something along the same lines. He said, you know, you could never really teach anyone anything. Right.

Right.

All you can do is point them to the knowledge. Right. That's. You know, and really, they have to do the rest. But mentors have a gift for doing that. They. And he had. I. I believe he had an inspired gift for doing that. Because really, when you consider the concept as a whole, and I don't understand it as well as you guys do, but. But I do read a lot, and when I. What I see his book as is, is really an example of mentorship. I think that's what he meant it to be.

Yeah.

It is an exercise in mentorship so that anyone can pick up the book and understand that this is something that was being taught to them for them and for their benefit, as opposed to. Let's face it, a lot of the financial books out there are not. That's not. That's not why they're written. I mean, they all. They all have something to offer. But, I mean, you know, Mr. Nash's book is not Robert Kiyosaki book. It's not a rate. It's not a Ray Dalio book. Right. Not to disparage those gentlemen. You know, they're all very. They're very Successful. But, but I don't, I mean those books are, are not anything like what Mr. Nash wrote and they're not purposed in the same way.

Become your own banker and take back control over your financial life. Hey, is this even possible? You may be asking, can I even do this? Well, you better believe, believe it. In fact, it's easy to get going. So easy that we put together a free report, 7 Simple Steps to becoming your own banker. Download it right now. Go to seven steps ca. That's seven steps ca. Now let's get back to the episode.

Nelson said it was about the message, not about the man. And he, he was very adamant about that up until his very last day. And interesting. He shared with us in the last couple of years before he passed that the, the, the last 20 years of his life had been the most amazing years of his life and he was on fire. He was amped up other than, you know, ailments building up and, and he, he ran into this thing called immovable object theory. Maybe Jason will share that story in a moment. But he, you know, so he was just a absolutely hilarious guy and he was exceptionally well read. And so I think you and Nelson would have really become fast friends because you would have been sharing quotes from books and stuff back and forth. You would have really appre.

That.

But one of the things that Nelson was really good at was talking about, you know, again, the, the classification of things. Yeah, right. And you know, you and I late and we've shared a little bit about our overarching views on certain, let's call it policies that come down from on high in our, in our current, you know, governing status. But when it, when it comes to misclassification, Nelson thought that life insurance, whole life insurance specifically was grossly misclassified. It should have been called a personal monetary system with a death benefit on the side for good measure. Of course we need to come up with some, you know, finicky acronym to explain that. But then additionally he talked a lot about secession, peaceful secession from a world or an environment or an idea, a financial system that isn't there to really support and look after you. And you know, a lot of places in the world there's, there's a lot of movements that, where people are trying to get, they're trying to get resolve at a top down level. Nelson believed that it had to be a grassroots method. Whatever you're trying to do, if you want to affect change on something, it has to happen at the you and me level. And if you do it in this way, when it comes to the concept of infinite banking, you can slowly and individually make a voluntary choice to peacefully secede from a chunk of the financial system that you don't want to be a part of, and you can be profitable in doing so. And then if you slowly begin to share that message with other people, more and more people do it. You don't need to go and get changes, you know, at a. At a federal or whatever level, because you can affect that change, you know, without even having to ask permission. And he was a real big advocate of that sort of thinking.

Yeah. And, you know, it's. He's. Of course, he was so right. What he was really talking about is, again, freedom, sovereignty, really. Sovereignty, which is the dominion to make decisions that impact your own, your own, your own life. There's a great book that was written. Sorry to talk about books, guys, but it was great, great book written that I'm sure Mr. Nash would have known about. It was written in 1935 by an American economist named Albert Knock. And it's. It's called Our Enemy the State.

Indeed. It's. It's on his. I bet you Jason's got it on his.

I've got it there.

I've got it.

Yeah, it says many great things, but one of the things that, that it. That. That Mr. Nock hit on in the book was exactly what you said there. And that is that the closer we're going to be able to solve problems at the individual, at the community level, at the municipal level, even at the state level and federal level, the closer we get to the grassroots communities. So, in other words, you know, if somebody's house is on fire, if all the neighbors get together, they could probably put that fire out long before. Even before the fire department gets there. And when you magnify this out, what we have in Canada right now is we have a federal government that is completely alienated from Western Canada, especially places like Alberta and Saskatchewan that are. That have actually passed laws declaring sovereignty, which should be redundant because, you know, the Canadian Federation Confederation is actually envisioned and is legally stipulated as a. As a marriage of sovereign states that each have their own distinctive powers within certain areas. But what Albert Knox said that really I think would have resonated with Mr. Nash, who probably did, is this idea that, you know, we can get together, we can do a better job, you know, in our families, in our communities, solving problems than government can ever do, and we can do it a lot more effectively and a lot more. A lot more cheaply without sacrificing our freedom. And this is what, what Albert Knox talked about is, you know, every time we go to a bank or a government, we have to give something up, and that's our freedom. And you know, Ronald Reagan famously said, you know, the, the scariest words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I'm here to help. And you know, I think if you replace, you know, government with bank, I think that's, that's sort of what, what Mr. Nash was talking about.

He and Rich, you would, you would remember this, but he would often say.

Show me just one government program.

That'S worked. Yeah, just one.

Yeah.

And I gotta share now. I gotta share this story. So my phone rings one day and it's Nelson. And he, he said, I just wanted to let you know that the rumors surrounding my early demise have been grossly over exaggerated. And I said, I beg your pardon? He said, have you, have you ever heard of the immovable object theory? I said, no, I haven't. He said, well, I was in my bathroom shaving.

And I tripped and fell and hit my shoulder on the bathtub. And he said, would you believe it? That bathtub didn't move a single inch.

And that was just, that was Nelson. We were talking, we were talking before the show. And this is relevant, speaking to an attorney. So Nelson was in a meeting with a very prominent attorney in his hometown. And he's having this conversation about the process of becoming your own banker, the infinite banking concept. And he felt like he was beginning to be drawn into trying to convince this, this attorney. And so he said, I politely ended the meeting early, indicating that I had somewhere else that I had to be. So I was packing up my things, I'm leaving the meeting. And I thought to myself, I am never going to try to convince anyone, ever. This message is more caught than it is taught. And it cannot be taught through argument or trying to convince someone. And then a short, a short while later, the attorney calls Nelson and said, nelson, I forgot to ask you in our meeting whether or not you, you lend money privately, because I had heard that you did. Is that in fact true? And Nelson said, yes, it is. So this attorney wanted to purchase an airplane. Now, an airplane is not something that you just go to Walmart and pick up on your way. No, no, it is an expensive piece of equipment.

Yeah.

So Nelson was very humble, but certainly had the resources to do that.

And he understood airplanes very well also.

And yeah, he, he was, he was an aviator, right. And so he financed the airplane for the attorney and Took the proceeds, the stream of payments, and purchased the very thing that he wanted the attorney to buy from him. And so he. And he said he would ask the question, who do you think got the better deal? Because he worked out a great financing arrangement with the attorney. But the attorney expanded Nelson's ability to lend capital.

And isn't that what the consumer does? Every time the consumer is sending money to someone else's bank, you're expanding that bank's capabilities to create more money where no money existed before. My goodness. I'll share one more quick story. Rich, I got to share this, because you're going to love this. So you remember in the book Nelson talks about, he said if. If I was. And he told it a little bit differently in person, he would say, leighton, if you and I were to go to the busiest shopping center in your town, and I wanted you to take me to the food court. And I walked into that food court, and I approached someone sitting down, enjoying their lunch, and I pulled out a revolver and pointed that gun right at that person's head and said, I need you to empty the contents of your wallet onto this table or I'm going to blow your brains out. Leighton, you and I can agree that that would be robbery.

Robbery, absolutely.

That would be a criminal offense.

Yeah, very serious.

He said, but if I was to have a conversation with everyone in the food court an hour before, that person showed up and talked about how I'm going to distribute the contents of his wallet to everyone in the food court, that would be democracy in action, right?

And so he just. Oh, boy, he just had such a.

Great way of, you know, now, you know, that story you told about the lawyer reminds me of something that. I mean, it shows the difference between listening, right? And, you know, like, really listening, active listening. And unfortunately, this is something that. That. I don't think this is unique to lawyers, but it's probably true of bankers, doctors, you know, people who, let's say, acquire a higher level of education, right? And, you know, we become. We become know it alls. You know, we think that, you know, we. It sort of gives education sometimes, gives those of us who would have acquired at a sense of superiority. And it's sinful. It's a form of. Of pride. And I fell into this as a young lawyer. I can tell you, as a young lawyer, people coming to see me, you know, they would sit down with me and. And start talking. And within. Within the first five minutes, I would be interrupting them, say, yeah, yeah, I got this. I know what your problem is we got to do A, B, C and D, and we do this and that. Okay? And that's it. And. And I was famous in the place where I work for having the shortest client meetings. I couldn't believe how quick they could get clients in and out. And what happened was I was able to achieve, generally speaking, you know, good results for the clients because, you know, I was dedicated, and I. I did have a good grasp of the law, and I worked very hard. But I would get this kind of feedback from my clients. You know, I would get them the result that they wanted, but they would call up and they would complain about the bill, and. So what's the problem with the bill? Is it too high? No, you know, it's just. You didn't listen to me. I don't feel like you heard me, like I don't understand what happened. You didn't explain to me the process and all this. And I'm. I'm thinking, well, what? Like, what did you want? And here I had a complete misunderstanding of the expectation of my client, the consumer, the person who was hiring me, who was paying, you know, putting bread on my table. I was not giving them what they wanted. What they wanted was an experience of a service relationship. They wanted someone to listen to them. That was key. They wanted things explained to them, and. And they wanted to know what was happening at every stage of the process. And I found that. That really I had to learn how to be a good listener. I had to learn to be patient, and. And I had to really work at active listening. And I think that's a problem that a lot of people have, especially in the service. I know it's a problem that a lot of lawyers have. This is one of the main complaints that people have about lawyers, that lawyers do not communicate well. And that's really terrible because a lawyer should be somebody.

Who has a command of the language and can communicate things effectively to a client. But using your example, when we started out, when you were talking about the language of what is a contract? Well, if Mr. Nash sat down with somebody and explain to them what a contract was, he could probably do a better job of that than most lawyers would, because most lawyers would fall into, you know, the lexicon of. Of. Of legal language that people call legalese.

Right.

That they don't understand, you know, And. And that's really not communicating with people, and it's not giving people what they need. It's not imparting wisdom. It's not imparting confidence. Right. And. And so, yeah, when you said that about the lawyer. It just reminded me, you know, he probably wasn't listening to anything that. That Mr. Nash was, was saying because he had these preconceived ideas on becoming your own banker. We know what, you know, that's, that's bollocks. You know, how, how can that happen? You know, not understanding that really he was in the presence of somebody who is a bona fide financial genius.

Yeah.

Well, and that's interesting because Nelson talked about the arrival syndrome in the book, and when he was doing his live. His live seminars, that's the story he would tell. He would tell the lawyer story. And that's kind of why he, he emphasized the arrival syndrome. And it wasn't to, you know, pigeonhole that. That environment, but it was just a real life experience that people could relate to.

Yeah.

And he was a master at meeting people where they're at. And that's, I think, really what you're identifying Leighton. And it's so key. What I think is interesting is, you know, you've, you know, you mentioned that you've been in practice for 28 years. You know, know you're, you're, you're seasoned in your practice, you're seasoned in what you do. You've developed a vast array of knowledge. You know, we can see the size of the books that are behind you on the screen for anyone watching on YouTube. And I know from our conversations you are an avid reader. I would say you're. You know, when I think about people that I read, I think about Jason, I think about you, and I think about Nelson, Nashley, you guys are very avid readers. And so I'm curious when you think about, you know, with a period that you find yourself in your life as you're, you're actually expanding your practice, you're. You're opening up another office in Edmonton, you've got an office in Calgary, an office in Cold Lake. So congratulations on that and your success. What is, you know, what would you say when you think about the period that you are in your life, where you're at as a seasoned veteran, as an entrepreneur and only learning about Nelson and his message, you know, in, in this last period of time, you know, in the last kind of six, eight months of your life, what comes up for you when you think about that relative to all the things you've done in the past and only kind of finding it now?

Well, I know this is a bit of a cliche in his book, right. Everybody who comes across his book says, oh, where have you been all my Life. I wish I would have had this. So, you know, it wouldn't. At whatever age you're at, I think you would have a sense, oh, gee, I wish I would have known this sooner. I could have put this into, into effect sooner. I don't see it that way, you know, because I see, I see a knowledge and wisdom as, as a journey. And now I'm a truth, I'm a truth seeker. And this is why I have a schedule where I literally consume books. I consume about two to three a week, whether they're audiobooks or actual books. And of course, I read the Bible daily. Most of the New Testaments, we just went through Easter, and of course, every year I reread the Gospels.

And just to renew my faith and, you know, come, come to the cross. But, but really, I think for anybody at any age to discover this incredible piece of wisdom that's unleashed in this book is such, it's so powerful. I just, you know, I, it's easy to say, oh, I wish I would have known about this five years ago. Where would I be? But I approach it from a point of view of gratitude that I've discovered this illuminating concept at this moment in my life and that, that it can have a great impact on my future and the future of my friends and my family, my, my business partners. So, I mean, I guess I have a different outlook on it. And again, it's informed by my faith and the way I look at my life. And I would say the other thing about, about me that, you know, Richard, is that I'm always trying to remake myself. It's, and I don't say remake myself in terms of, you know, transitioning into anything, but I'm always trying to grow and learn and change because I can't stand still. I, I, There's a, there is a restlessness.

That, that's in my personality, and it's not because I'm dissatisfied with anything. I just don't, I, I just see myself as a work in progress. I, I have not achieved all the things that God has laid out for me. And so that's why I'm pursuing additional concept by opening new offices, expanding the scope of my practice and taking on new challenges there and of course, taking on the, the whole concept of the podcast, which is, you know, has been one of the greatest learning experiences of my life and absolute. What a gift it is to be, to be introduced to people like, like you guys, people like Dr. J. Bhattacharya, Dr. Robert Malone, I mean, Eric Metaxas, list Goes on and on and on. And of course, every one of those guests is another learning opportunity. It's like getting another bachelor's degree. You know, when. When I had Eric Metaxas on the show, I read four of his books before we did the interview. He was amazed. He couldn't believe it. He, you know, that I actually read all these books. And I said to him off camera, said, well, you know, why would I. Why would I miss the opportunity of meeting you and not being able to talk to you about your amazing books? This guy who wrote incredible biographies of people like Martin Luther and. And Lord Wilberforce, for those of you who know who that is, and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, you know, and so that has been an amazing experience. And it saddens me, actually, that we're living in a time in our culture when books are not valued the way they ought to be. Certainly not the way Mr. Nash understood that. You know, but just to have a book in your hand, a feeling of the texture of the paper, and, I mean, that's why I'm. I'm surrounded by them. I have a Bible behind me that was my oldest. I have actually have a collection of Bibles. People are going to wonder, why is he collecting Bibles? It's the greatest book ever, actually. The greatest anthology of books. There's 66 of them. They're all great. Anyway, the Bible behind me was published in 1863. It's the oldest Bible I have, and it's right here in my office and my studio. And I keep it there as a comfort to get me through these interviews, because normally I get grilled a lot harder than you guys are today.

We've been throwing softballs. We need to kick it up a notch.

Yeah, sure, sure.

Tend to go easy.

Okay, I appreciate it, but it's for.

Other, you know, for folks who are viewing this on our YouTube channel and folks who are listening to this on your favorite podcast platform.

What would you. What would you say, what would you share with, you know, fellow practitioners in. In the legal business about your discovery of this. Of this process?

Well, I think that there are many, many lawyers who never discover the importance of business.

Most lawyers are competent in legal practice and can provide a level of service to the client. In fact, the law society does pretty good job of making sure that the lawyers who practice in any given jurisdiction in Canada, you know, have a pretty good idea of what the law is. And. And they can. And they can provide proper service to clients, but that's only one part of it. And unfortunately, many Lawyers never graduate out of that mindset. They see themselves only as lawyers. And if you're going to be in private practice, you're in a business, and you better understand that you, that that business, you know, if you don't take care of business, that business is going to, you know, is not going to take care of you. And so I, I learned early on in my practice, again, from having a couple of, of mentors who were not only good lawyers but also conscientious business people, I learned the importance of, of, of, you know, running a business. And so I'm always searching for ways to not only improve the profitability of the law business, but also thinking of ways to take the income that is generated by that law business and expanding it out into different concepts. So even before I was blessed to learn about Mr. Nash, you know, I gotten into things, things that most people get into, like the stock market, real estate, you know, precious metals, and things of that nature. But, and this really answers your question. Just about every lawyer who is in practice, even, even the ones who are in very, very large firms, are beholden to banks. Right? And, and really, this is, this is something that, you know, even though, and with, with the grace to respect to the bankers who have supported my business over the years, I would rather have them out of my life. You know, I'd rather not pay the interest. I'd rather not have to go hat in hand and beg to them, you know, for money to expand my business or, you know, buy something that's necessary or acquire another asset or things of that nature. I'd much rather be my own banker and be able to unleash the power of, of, of this concept that Mr. Nash came up with. And so this is why I'm very. I, I learned about it, actually, by, I learned about Richard firstly by. I found out. I found out about him online, watched some of his podcasts, and I thought, you know, I'm gonna get this book. And I read the book, and then from there I said, you know, I really got to get this guy on my podcast and pick his brain and find out more about it. And of course, now I'm, at this point, I'm, I'm fully, fully engaged and ready to, you know, dive into the, into the pool and become, you know, establish my own infinite banking system. I have two sons, one who's 19 and one who's 15. And one of the things that I'm trying to impart to them is a better understanding of, you know, of financial education, which, of course, as you know, is pretty decrepit in our schools in Alberta. I just put in a shameless plug here. This is what Rachel Notley, who's the leader of the NDP in Alberta, this is what she thinks proper education should look like for young people. I think Mr. Nash would find this horrifying. She says students should have a proper, modern curriculum, one that actually prepares them for their future. Mr. Nash might agree with that, but this is what she thinks that includes. She thinks that includes information about climate change, gender equality, poverty reduction, LGBTQ2S + rights, anti racism, and the history of residential schools. So what she thinks proper education for young people is us against the planet. Men versus women, rich versus poor, gay versus straight, black versus white, and the indigenous people against the rest of Canada. Well, that's not a very good recipe for a meaningful life or happiness, is it? And so part of the reason why I'm interested in this concept and I want to learn about it is not only do I want to achieve, I want to leave this generational wealth to my kids. I also want to impart to them this wisdom so that they will have the kind of education that Mr. Nash can impart, because if they have that kind of education, they won't need any of the stuff that Rachel Notley is talking about.

Very well said, Richard. Take us home.

Well, Leighton, as. As I expected, it was an absolute pleasure having you on the program. We appreciate everything that you share with us, especially your. Your learning journey with the process of becoming your own banker and your. Your experience of becoming an entrepreneur. And successfully, 28 years later, still trudging along, looking at. Building and growing that. That legacy even further. One of the things that we like to tune in with people who join us on the program is, you know, something a little bit different. And we. You may not, you know, certainly today, showing up in your. In your office with amazing books behind you, and maybe you were in court earlier today, you've got the tie on. I don't imagine you show up to court very often with a cape, but when you take on these massive litigations and you're helping, you know, 300 plaintiffs successfully, you know, come to some resolve, and you're doing these types of things, and you're. And you're going about sharing messages and interviewing amazing and powerful people who are sharing their messages on your podcast, on your show, you're actually showing up as a hero. That's what I believe. And I think that it's so important, the work that you're doing. And so our question for you really Is who do you most want to be a hero to?

I would say to my. To my children, to my sons, and I don't see myself as a hero. That's very kind of you to. To say that about me. I would say, though I would use a different word. I would say that I'm a person who has charisma. Now, charisma is a misused word. People think that's something that, you know, maybe someone like Brad Pitt. Brad Pitt has or, you know, some movie star. But charisma is actually a word that means Christ within. It means that you are walking in. In the footsteps of our Savior, of our Lord and Savior. And that is we're walking out our purpose, the purpose that was laid out for us, that we're living a life of humility, that we're living a life of gratitude, that we're living a life of purpose, that our goal is to. Is to help other people. And that's what I'm trying to do. And I'm just trying to use what the Lord has given me, what the gifts that I have to. To leave that, that legacy to. To the people that I'm helping and to my family. And with the podcast, really, I've been thinking about this recently.

And I'll just share this with you just to finish off. You know, there was a time last year when I was thinking about giving up the podcast. You know, it was taking up a lot of time. It was just me and a laptop. And then an incredible thing happened. Some people at something called the Miracle Channel contacted me and they said, you know, we've seen your podcast. You know, we really think that you. That you have something. I was like, really? What is it? Because I don't know. But they said, you know, we think you have something. We think we could take it to another level. Like, we have. We have the television expertise. We have access to millions of viewers. We can, you know, we can improve the production values and get better guests and all that stuff. And I was like, wow, here I was thinking that I was going to give all this up, and then all of a sudden, just out of nowhere, out of the clear blue sky comes somebody comes. The Miracle Channel said, you know what? Not only are we. You're not going to give this up late, you're going to take this to another level. You know, it's going to be like, remember, Emerald, we're going to kick this up a notch.

That's right.

And, and so that's really. That, that, that to me, those, those little things that Happen. They're not coincidence. Those are signs that, that we're on the right track, that we're doing the right thing, that we're, we're living a life of vocation and purpose and meaning. And so that's really, that's really what I'm doing, and that's really what I'm acting out. So that's a long winded way of saying is. I'm trying to be an example to, to my kids and other people that, you know, this is one way to live a meaningful life. Albert Einstein said many brilliant things, but he said something that I think Mr. Nash, I think he actually quoted in, in his book. He said that, you know, there's. There's only three ways to influence other people. The first is example, the second is example, and the third is example. And so really, I'm. That's. That's what I'm trying to live out. And if, if that is inspiring other people, then, you know, that pleases me and I'm humbled by that. So I thank you for saying that. But I don't see myself as a. As a, as a hero. I only have one hero. And that's, that's the, that's the one who. We just, we just celebrated his, you know, his. He's risen. You know, we just had, you know, Easter. That's my hero. That's the only hero I have. But I thank you for saying that's very kind, generous of you to say that, but I don't see myself in that way. But I do put upon myself.

The role. I wouldn't say the burden. I would say I put on the mantle of leadership. And I'm trying to live that out in my best way. And if that inspires people, then that's wonderful. Thank you.

That's amazing. And what a great conversation about how to become your own banker. Legally.

There's.

We don't want to do it illegally.

There's. There's actually latent. There's a great book that I would recommend that you read, if you haven't already. It's titled Anointed for Business.

Wow.

I have not. Would you email me that. That I'd love to read that book.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Thanks for that.

It was gifted to me from a client of mine who's a pastor. And he said, I really need you to read this because I really, truly believe this is what you are anointed to do. And.

It'S a wonderful book. I will say to everybody who's watching us on YouTube, so you will see a playlist. It just showed up. That's our technical team. Wonderful people whom we appreciate very much because neither Richard or I would even remotely know how to do that. And so thank you for tuning in for watching. The playlist is there to encourage you to continue your journey of learning. So just click through to the next video that's been recommended for you. Continue your journey of learning. There's always something new to learn. There's no such thing as having arrived in knowledge. And thank you so much for being with us. Make the rest of your week outstanding. Leighton, this was a sincere pleasure. We will have you back again, that we can assure you. And it was just a real pleasure having this conversation. So gentlemen, thank you.

Thanks for listening to the Wealth Without Bay street podcast where your wealth matters. Be sure to check out our social media channels for more great content. Hit subscribe on your favorite podcast player and be sure to rate the show. We definitely appreciate it. And don't forget to share this episode with someone you care about. Join us on the next episode where we continue to uncover the financial tools, strategies and the mindsets that maximize your wealth.