197. Self Leadership: How To Achieve Becoming Your Own Banker

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How do you take leadership development, executive coaching, smash them together into one person and then help him discover IBC to change his entire financial life? Well, we're going to find out. We're joined with Mike Sandberg today. We're going to have a lot of fun. And he's an executive coach and a leadership consultant based out of Langley, B.C. and he works with all kinds of leaders from all different kinds of growing companies. What's really awesome is his company Brackish Consulting Group and people incorporated support organizations through individual and group coaching. They're all about strategic planning and conflict revolution. Now what's amazing about Mike is that he's been married for 20 years and he's got two incredible kids. Plus he loves to coach basketball. He's actively involved in the community. What I appreciate about Mike in the time that I've known him is that he thinks differently. We're all about thinking differently here on our program, on our interviews and the wonderful things that we do with this process of becoming your own banker. Mike, pleasure to have you on the program today.

Yeah, great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Well, I want to kick things off a little bit. Tell me a little bit about what got you and what led you into doing coaching for companies. You had a different kind of a career model previously and then it, you realize the skill sets that you built up have had led you to this position. So help us understand a little bit in our listeners what, what led to that change for you?

Yeah, well it's, it started I think when I was 10 years old coaching baseball. So I, for some reason I just, I always enjoyed coaching even more than I enjoyed playing. So When I was 10 I coached the 8 year olds and I was 12, I coached the 10 year olds and always loved, loved coaching and played pretty high level sports my whole life. Went to university just to play basketball. Thought I wanted to be a teacher mostly so that I could be a high school basketball coach. My, my coach in high school was the phys ed teacher. He was a mentor to me and kind of, that was the path I wanted to be on. Four years and a lot of money into a university degree. I finally ended up in a classroom, into practice teaching. And I realized right away, I do not want to be in the classroom. This is not for me. And what I had thought was, was the desire to teach was actually the desire to coach. And so I graduated university, I needed a job. I became a golf coach for a summer, two summers, and ended up making my way into youth work for a not for profit. And worked in that for about 11 years in high school. Got to do a lot of coaching, a lot of working with kids, high school kids, mentoring, really getting into more about teaching life than teaching subject matter. And that was kind of lit, that passion for me. And that eventually led to a career in executive coaching.

Amazing. Well, I know Vern loves, loves coaching and he's had impactful people, coaches in his life, especially around sports. And I think sports are a really key connection for people that we can easily relate to in other areas of our life. And so I'm grateful to hear that story from you and how it's shifted and changed now over your time. So getting into the business realm and doing this, this executive coaching level stuff, lots of great experience that you developed over time and a lot of great education in it as well. Somewhere along the path it led you to discover this thing called the infinite banking concept. Talk to us a little bit, share with us how that journey showed up for you. And, and, and what, what, what rabbit hole did you crawl into basically in the discovery process?

Yeah, well, you know, they say timing is everything. And so I'll give you a little bit of a quick back story here. When I, when I ended up in this not for profit organization when I was 23 years old, I had my first real job. And you know, know you go through the onboarding process and they set you up with your matching rsp, which is going to be the savior for your life. And you know, you just get handed this form, do you want the, you know, the high growth, the medium growth or the low growth and RSPs? You should do this. And you know, it's a no brainer because you make 100% on your money right away because we match you and it defers well, it, it gets you all the money back in taxes. And they didn't say tax deferral, they said get the money back.

And I was always a bit of a challenging type of person.

And so I kind of looked at it and this was 1997. My, my starting salary was $24,000 a year. And I realized that I was already in a zero tax bracket and to defer these taxes to later was to take the money at a zero tax rate and potentially bring it out later at a 50% tax rate. And that just seemed like bad advice. And so my first week on the job, I almost got fired because I went head to head with hr, trying to explain to them that in their wonderful attempt to take care of me, they were actually making a poor financial choice for me. And I didn't know anything about money at the time. I just knew that this wasn't a good strategy. But I pushed it to the brink of losing my first job. And then I thought, well, I guess I just got to do this. And so I started putting away, I think 4% or 5% of my salary, which wasn't enough to live on even if I got the whole thing. And realizing they had another 5%, they were willing to pay me, but only if I put it away for later, which was a bad idea. And so this idea that in the future sometime I was going to choose to live very poor, like the goal was to be poor for your whole retirement didn't sit well with me. And so fast forward a bunch of years right as Covid was hitting. We happened to buy a new house in January, moving in in April. And in the midst of that, my dad had passed away two days before the pandemic was declared. And then, you know, Covid hit and all businesses were shut down and my whole business was gone because I wasn't allowed into anybody's office buildings, all the restaurants where everything was shut down. And so we were needing to finalize the purchase of our house. And I thought, well, I better take out some cash just because who knows how long this thing's going to go. And so as I was settling up my mortgage, I said to them, look, can I get more money secured against my house? And they said no. And I said, but. But I have all this money in RSPs and I have all this money in my corporate account. At this point, you're looking at your computer screens and this is a 21 year old kid at the bank, not me, my own banker. So somebody else. And I said, I'm just asking to borrow my own money from you. And he just didn't understand. And so that was. I got shut down. I couldn't even leverage against my RSPs that I'd been forced to put into for 25 years and couldn't leverage against my corporate bank account and decided at that point I gotta, I gotta change the system here. And so that day I decided to take control of my money. I didn't know ibc, never heard of it, had no idea about whole life insurance. But I knew that if I took all my corporate income and kept that in my corporation and turned my RSPs to a rift and started to live my retirement funds, now I could draw that down. Now I'm going to be paying the same taxes or more later anyways and get all that dead money in play now and have way more control of the money in my court. Fast forward two more years and I was in Mexico with my son and my wife and daughter were on a school trip in Europe and my son and I were in Mexico and I got a text message from my friend Lance, who Richard, you've met now with a link to a video on ibc and all it says is have you heard of this? And he, he happened to be in Cancun and we were in Puerto Vallarta and, and he doesn't know this language. I know you guys are into the Colby index, so I'm a quick start fact finder. And.

So he, he kind of ruined my vacation a little bit because I just went down the rabbit hole and I think I watched 500 podcasters laying on the beach and kind of went all the way down. I found all these different people who are, had their podcasts and that led me to getting your email address and reaching out and the rest is history here. It's been seven or eight months that I've been on this journey, but it seems like it's been years.

Well, you, you, you've put a, you put years worth of time in, in the, in the consumption of knowledge, which is, which is quite fantastic. And my family, yeah, well, I, I, I appreciate the, the sharing that, that journey, Mike, and what I'm curious about, you know, again, going back to a couple of points that you mentioned, there was that early point of, you know, challenging the idea of the RSP for your unique circumstances. Didn't make sense then, but not being able to get the point across. Shooting forward to the meeting with this banker much younger than you, basically out of some kind of school, not knowing how to handle and answer the questions that you've had. And for our listeners, you know, if you're on YouTube, go ahead, leave a comment. I, I know I'm going to put my hand up. I've multiple times been in a meeting at a banker's office trying to get Something done that I know can be done. Having them tell me no, or me having to explain to them why and how they should get it done because I'm the customer and I'm allowed to do it. And so going through that almost a convincing process, which seems like it's in a reverse order, I, I have multiple frustration points in my own life doing that. So like your story really connects and resonates me hearing that now. Vern, have you ever had an experience like that, like Mike has, Mike has talked about?

Yeah, absolutely. I've had an experience like that myself, many in fact, because I, for the last say 15 odd years I've been self employed and when I was at high, well, decent, I was in the, in the trades, Mike, in my 20s and I was working my way through and I had good credit because I paid my bills and I earned really good income and they just wanted to throw money at me because I had a nice solid T4 income. And the minute I double my income because I'm now a contractor and I'm earning a lot more revenue, they won't even look at me. And I'm thinking like this, at the time I had no idea how any of this stuff worked either. And I'm going like, that doesn't make any sense. You can even look in the account and see the money there. Like, how come I can't get a loan? I don't understand this stuff, right?

So I said to this young banker, I said, look, I know on your screen right there you're looking at all my accounts. You can see how much money is there. I just want you to add that to my mortgage. I'm going to pay you. I mean at that point, 2.6% on my money, like it's free for you. And he, he wouldn't do it. And then he finally said to me, he's like, if you need the money, why don't you just take it out? And I said, well, I don't want to give Uncle Justin half of it. And he didn't even know, he didn't know who Uncle Justin was. So. Well, I think we're done here. We're done here. I'll, I'll go figure out another way. And, and yeah, that kind of started, started the process. So when I, Richard, when I met you, like, I feel like I was kind of already down the road of, I was, I just needed to find the right tool to implement the process that I didn't know what the name of it was. But that process of taking control of my own, the banking function of my own life.

I, you know, after searching in the blindly for 25 years, knowing this system was not right, but letting it lead me, I finally got to the other side, said, I'm done with it. I'm gonna take control. And then, you know, again, timing is everything, right? If I wasn't in that place, I think the, the video sent to me by my friend on the beach would have just gone by the wayside. But I was. It was. Timing is everything, so.

And how often do you think that happens, Mike? I mean, I think some of this will go to your coaching experience. You know, even with the people that you work with, whether it's youth in the past or. Or more so in the role you have today.

A lot of times I suspect you're connecting or meeting with people either from, from the past or now. They. They actually fundamentally know what to do or they've heard or they have kind of the answer or the. The thing is right there in front of them. It's like it's covered in a blanket, but you know, you can. It's like. It's like if you had an elephant in the room covered in a blanket, and it like blends into the background, but like, geez, there's a ginormous elephant in the room right there, but. But it's not there. It's covered in a blanket. Like, do you find that that sort of thing happens for people?

Yeah, I think it's funny. I actually, my screensaver is a picture of an elephant on the couch at a, At a psychologist office. And the quote says, it's funny, Doc. Even when I'm right in the middle of the room. No one acknowled me. It's a hilarious thing. But, you know, there's a. One of my favorite authors, I actually had the privilege to sit under him for a while, is a. A professor named Vernon Story. And one of his quotes is, the primary responsibility of a leader is to define reality. One of the principles in my coaching practice I use is that people do what they want to do. They always do what they want to do. And so part of helping people and unlocking. And this was the process for me with, with ibc was that you need to help people define their reality, right? To give them. To prompt them with questions and explore. Where are you right now? It's like stepping on a scale, right? It. It doesn't judge you or anything. It just, it's just accurate. It tells you the truth. And then you have to make a decision about what that truth says to you. And then. So now you've got A. That's kind of your starting point. The next way you can help people is to figure out C, where do you want to get from where you are? And this is financial. It's. It's with your health, it's with your business, it's in relationships. Everything's about a journey from point A to point C. And the way you get there is B. So this. This equation A plus B equals C. B is pretty obvious once you've established where someone is and where they're going. But I think the hardest thing for people a lot of times is, is to define reality. Where am I right now? And then to have a clear picture of where they want to end up. And so, you know, we have all these famous quotes, right? Begin with the end in mind. And we. We do this when we drive every day, naturally, right? You get in your car and you back out of your driveway, and you just. You instinctively know which way to turn because you know where you're going and you know where you are. And so it just kind of happens. You get there because you know where you're going. If you don't know, you. You use, you know, your trusty little map on your phone, and that map is only useful if the GPS is on, so it knows where you are accurately. And if you tell it the address where you want to end up, if you can't give it A and C, it can't give you a route to get there. And so that, you know, that little A plus B equals C is kind of the. To me, it's kind of the equation of life. But the hardest part for people, you know, so often people, when they engage me, they say, I don't know what to do. Can you help me with what to do? What they're really asking is tell me B or help me figure out B. And that's rarely what people actually need. What they really need is help to establish A and C. And then the path kind of makes itself pretty clear, Right?

The blanket falls off the elephant.

Yeah, yeah, but those are the hardest things, right? To. To. If your friend called you and say, hey, Richard, can you. Can you give me some directions? Well, sure. Absolutely. Where are you trying to go? I have no idea. Okay.

The other way. Where are you right now? I don't know that either.

Okay. The only way I can help you right now is actually let's figure out where you are first and then let's, like, are you trying to find dinner? Like Your way home. Where are you trying to go? Let's find A and C. And then the rest kind of makes itself obvious.

I feel like my response would be, is this the wrong. I think you dialed the wrong number. Yeah.

Hey, Rich, you said this to me a while earlier when we were recording, but doesn't that remind you of something?

It does a little bit, yeah.

If you know what's going on.

Yeah.

You'll know what to do if you.

Know what's going on. You know what, you know the answer. Right? That's the. Or.

Or you can't clearly. You can't figure out a solution unless you clearly understand the problem.

Right?

So that's brilliant, Mike, really. And. And the funny thing is, too, is. Is as human beings, I think we just intuitively want to complicate things. We say, like, oh, man, like, it's got to be more complicated than that. The reality is, yeah, there's all kinds of complex stuff out there and things that you can do, but the reality of it is, it's ridiculously simple. Like the way you just broke that down, it's so clear, and it's so simple. It's like, I got to figure out where I'm at and have a clear idea where I want to go, and then that the path to get there is just going to kind of naturally occur.

Well, I think you're right. And I think what. What becomes obvious in that process is that once you have those two things clear, it doesn't mean people are going.

To find their way.

But what it. What it demonstrates is that perhaps they don't actually want to go. Right. There's. They. They may believe they want to go somewhere, but when it's time to actually make the turn or change things, do the work, they realize they actually don't want to. Right. And. And, you know, I use equation. I'll say to people, two plus two equals five. And amazing how many people don't have the ability to say, you're wrong. They think there's some sort of trick. But if I said to you, two plus two equals five, you say to me, well, you're wrong. Say, okay, good. So. So then what is it?

Right.

And. And 99 of people will say it's 4, and that's. That's accurate. 2 plus 2 does equal 4, but that. I didn't say, what does 2 plus 2 equal?

Right.

If 2 plus 2 doesn't equal 5, then what is it? It could be 2 plus 3 equals 4, or it could be 2 plus 3 equals 5. And what changes, that is, if you were to say to the person what's more important to you, that the outcome be 5 or that the equation remains 2 plus 2.

Because if you're not willing to change the equation, then you get what you get and you don't get upset, to quote my daughter's preschool teacher. And that's fine. You don't have to change what you're doing. The equation of your life, whether it's around the banking system or around your health or relationships or your work, that doesn't have to change. There's nothing inherently wrong about anything we're ever doing, unless it doesn't equal what we want it to equal. Then we have a decision to make. Do you want a different outcome and therefore you've got to change the equation or do you want to keep doing what you're doing because you're comfortable with that, you're happy with it, and then you just have to keep it, stop expecting that it's going to equal something that it won't. Right? And so that's, you know, the saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result too. Too often I think we focus on the doing the same thing over and over. But the real problem is there is, is the expectation of the result.

It's not what, what I was doing before I, before I switched to, you know, IBC through a whole life policy. Why didn't I change earlier? Well, I, I had a comfortability around what was going on and I, it was equaling four and I was fine with that. I was mildly upset, but not enough to change what I was doing. And then it got to the point, you know, with the trying to get leveraged money because of fear with COVID about my income and where I was going to get money, my core value of security was really being threatened. And that pushed me to the point where finally I was like, I need a different outcome and I so desperately want that different outcome. I have to be willing to flip to the other side of the equation and change that. And that's what, that's what flip the switch. And I think for most people that's the wrestling we go through is it's do I want to change the equation to get the different outcome or, or do I just need to be happy with what I have because I'm not actually going to change. And that comes down to everything. Finances, diet, you know, our health, relationships, everything.

Become your own banger and take back control over your financial life. Hey, is this even Possible, you may be asking, can I even do this? Well, you better believe it. In fact, it's easy to get going. So easy that we put together a free report, 7 Simple Steps to becoming your own banker. Download it right now. Go to seven steps ca. That's seven steps ca. Now let's get back to the episode.

Reminds me a lot of something I learned from T. Harve many years ago. And he had an equation. It's, it's, it's all similar in mindset. And it was thoughts plus feelings plus actions equals results. Show me any of your results and we can look back and say, okay, what actions led to that? Okay, well, okay, you took the action. Well, the action came probably because you felt a certain way. And the reason you felt that way is because you were thinking about it. So we pick any one thing, you know, and, and it's true that it's all about how we think as, as Nelson Nash says, but to a large degree for, for certain people. So again, going back to like the Colby indicator, I'm, I'm a high quick start. I'm also a very high implementer, so I'm more engaged in the physical and tactile world. What I realized when I, I learned that equation is that often my thinking was a direct result of, of what action I took. So I realized to some degree if I actually manipulated physical action in my world, I could instantly and immediately impact the thoughts and the feelings so I could do certain proactive things. You know, when I was, I remember, man, I really didn't like school. And so even when I was going to get my, my electrical ticket and going through school for electrician many, many years ago, although there were tactile aspects to that school, it was still like, oh my God, like I, I'm used to being on a job site and getting dirty and bending pipe and doing all this stuff that was actually engaging for my brain. And now I'm stuck in this classroom environment. So I would, I would get out of the room and I recognized I was starting to like fall asleep. Cause I couldn't pay attention to the talking head at the top. And I would do like against the wall, you know, handstands and then like push ups. And I would, I would do things to create a physical state that would, that would get my brain thinking a certain way so that I could achieve a result of being able to pay attention. And I realized that I could manipulate certain physical activities that I was doing. So if my brain or my thoughts weren't in a positive category or doing, doing something productive. If I changed the action I was doing, I could impact the thinking that I wanted to achieve based on a past experience that was proven to be functional in my life. So. But that, that equation became very, very powerful because it's just algebra. You just have to, if you got plus plus, plus and over here to result. Okay, well if I, if I change this variable, then I create this and everything you described there makes a lot of sense to me, Mike. And I think that people discovering this process of becoming your own banker, they're coming into it from some kind of pass based financial programming. Parents, the world society, the news, a financial advisor, a bad experience, whatever it is. And they have to again make that determining decision. The probability is they're not discovering it because of an accident, they're doing some kind of an action that it's showing up for them in the world, most likely. Or you know, even if it's like an ad on their Facebook feed, probably you should get off Facebook, by the way. But let's just say that's what happens. There's, it triggers them for a reason because there's something going on in the world that says, ah, this is kind of, I'm looking into this, something like this. So your, your, your own personal experience I think is very relevant to everyone else that listens to our program. And so I'm curious, you know, dissecting some of that. What, what would you say? Because you know, you've, you've introduced a lot of people because you've done a ton of the work, what would you say is even when you try to mention or share this with another individual, what's, what's some of the feedback or commentary that you get as you start to share with people what you're doing and changing in your own financial life around this concept?

Yeah, that's a good question. I, I think, I mean I'm sure you guys have this experience quite a bit that, and I think Nelson Nash says it in the book. Like you, it's caught. You either see it or you don't. And I feel like it is amazing how there isn't. There doesn't seem to be a gray area in the middle. Right. And I, I think part of it is back to this equation, equation that for people who are at a point where the desire for a different outcome is more powerful than the ease of continuing along the way they've already been doing. Right. Change is difficult for anyone. And so there, it really sometimes comes down to competing pain points. Which one is more Painful. And.

I feel like for, for a lot of small business owners, as you mentioned earlier, Vern, you know, they're, they're more hands on with the nitty gritty of their business. They see the transactions, the, the ins and outs and the taxes and everything is right in their face. And so they see it a different way when you present it to them and it grabs them right away because they've been actually been searching for a chain. They've got an equation two plus two, it doesn't equal five. And there's, they live with that pain of it like this doesn't work and they don't want to keep complaining, but they don't know how to change, they don't know what the new equation is. And so when you introduce the concept of IBC and the tool, it makes sense right away because they actually have been living in the angst that the equation doesn't equal the outcome they want. I think for others who right away just think you're crazy and don't, they don't understand it. And I don't think it's intellectually they don't understand it. It's that they like their equation, they're living two plus two, they're happy with four and there's no problem with that. Right. The problem is when you're doing two plus two and you continue to complain as I was, that it never seemed to equal five and I had to finally coach myself and say, look, the things you help other business owners with, you're doing yourself when it comes to this process of the banking system, like I can't keep doing it the way I've always done and expecting a different outcome. I, I just can't. And so I, I had to coach myself through my own process. And you know, the tool showed up at, at the right point and, and you know, getting to know you and your ability to explain it. I think you and I have similar language around the way we understand things and that's been, that's made it very quick and easy for me.

I have an interesting question, I think for you, Mike, because we're talking about, you know, you wanting to create five or, or you know, being upset about four. Right?

Yeah.

And so, and then you're seeking that, that middle part you were seeking B. So where was your friend at, at the time when he discovered it? And, and I wonder what it was that prompted him to send that to you.

Yeah, well, I think he, he's a, he's a very good friend. He's also a client.

And.

He'S, he, my friend Lance is fantastic and he builds custom homes and, and does septic systems and he's absolutely fantastic. But he knows he, without having the language, he knows I'm a quick start fact finder and so he just, he just comes on to all this stuff and he just sends it to me. He's like, here, you figure this out and let's talk about it. And so I, he knew, sending it to me that I'd get to the bottom of that bowl pretty quick and then we would, we would talk through it. So, you know, we invited, ended up inviting Richard maybe just a month ago now to a, a barbecue with a community, probably 20, 24 of our friends and, and.

Our aquarium as you, as a language that you guys use of. We all kind of do business together, right? We're each other's clients through all aspects of, of business life. We, we, we do life together. It's our tribe. And so yeah, we're just down on the journey together. And my quick start had me go first.

Yeah, fantastic barbecue. So shout out to Lance and his amazing wife for putting all that on, by the way. And, and coincidentally I shout out just to Lance because again, Covid had a real impact on his primary business and out of that he could have made a decision to, to advance or to retreat. And he chose to advance by picking up a brand new business basically, you know, creating, installing septic systems something that he could do that didn't require people being in close proximity. So again, creating something out of thin air effectively by taking the hand that's dealt and saying, I don't really like this hand, I'm going to go get a new deck of cards. Yeah, fundamentally.

Yeah. And you know, and we've all been frustrated by the banking system, right. As business owners, especially during COVID I think that kind of acted as an impetus for a lot of people to change a lot of things. Right. Really forced people to take stock of their value systems and their communities and all those things. For good and for bad. It affected people, but it, it really was a, an inflection point for people to look at the equation they were living and if they were ready and needed to make changes, they, they did.

So, so I'm curious, you know, because I know you've, you've had conversations with people like you say who, who are happy with the two plus two model and, and they don't really want to make change. There's not the right time for them maybe to do that. But, but what would you share with People who are, you know, first discovering or they're, they're just looking at exploring this concept. Maybe they just got a copy of the book or they, they, they ran into this podcast for the first time. Let's just say.

Yeah.

What would you suggest as a, as a good method for them to, to really begin to go through the, the learning journey on their own? And what do you think would give them the most success at, at getting up and running to a point where they could decide that this was something for them?

Yeah, that's a, that is a good question. I, you know, for people who are, you know, like me, fact findings, their thing, you know, I think you're just consuming information, but I think there's a couple things that are, that are helpful. I think one of the things that really helped me figure it out and, and I've had this conversation with people and I think people who get stuck and aren't able to see it, they get fixated on the life insurance. And I know you guys have said, Nelson said that, you know, life insurance was a, was a poor term for it, right. Because people get fixated on the life insurance part and then it just seems like it's really expensive life insurance.

But I think as I went down on this journey that stuck out for me. To get the life insurance out of your head and understand it as a banking system and to understand that your money has to reside somewhere. And if, if you are someone who brings in more than you spend, which should be everyone, although I hesitate to should on people, but it would be best practice historically that you spend less than you bring in. And then if that, if there is an excess and it has to sit somewhere, where do you want it to sit? And you, you know, we all know that having a shoe box is a bad place for it. And I think at a certain part in our journey, we all become frustrated with the bank and it's sitting there. And that's my story. Ver. That was your story. And so, but it has to go somewhere. So where does it go? And if you can see this process through that lens that.

You have access to it and, and you're either paying the interest or earning the interest, then it unlocks it a little bit. But I think it all comes back to the timing. They have to be ready for it. I think something has to have happened that has them at the point where the equation that they're living is not equal in the outcome. And they've got to the point where they've listened to themselves complain. So Often that they, they almost annoy themselves, right? I, I, I, I don't like victim mentality. And I heard myself being a victim of the banking system and realized, what am I doing? I have to find a way to change the equation. I'm going to do that. And I started that process myself by living off my RRSPs as a 48 year old. I converted to a riff. My financial planner, my accountants had never heard of that. I had to show them what I was doing and have them run all the tax numbers and have them say to me, huh, I think you're actually onto something here because it's so outside of the ordinary. But I was figuring the equation out, right? If I wanted five, two plus two wasn't going to get me there. And there's infinite ways to get there, right? Infinite banking. It can be 2 + 2 + 1, 2 + 3, 2 + 8 + 5. There's no end to the equation if you really know what you want and you're committed to that outcome. And if you're, and that's the key, you have to be more committed to the outcome. I mean, we've all attempted to lose some weight in our lives, typically around January 1st, right? And it lasts a few days, weeks, hours. And then you have to ask yourself the equation, what do I want more? To lose 5 or 10 pounds or to eat this pizza and drink this nice bottle of wine, what do I want more, to lose five pounds or to hit the snooze button? And in that moment, you know which what you wanted more. And there's no right or wrong to it, it's just this, if that doesn't equal that, you just need to decide which one's more important. You know, if you'd rather have pizza and a bottle of wine or beer with your buddies and enjoy it, that's great. It equals four. And that's a good equation for you. But if you want five so badly, then you'll have to change equation. Financially, that's the place I got. And I think a lot of people are stuck there. And I think the education of what you guys do is, is to help people see that there is an equation that equals that. I think most people don't know that, right? And so they have to define their own reality. They have to figure out where they want to get to. And I think what you guys have been able to do through the books and through the podcast and videos is to show people there is actually an equation that gets you there. And now they just have to want to and when they want to, they'll pick up the phone, they'll send the email, they'll, they'll tune in.

Yeah, absolutely. I, I've, I think Richard can attest to this. Like, almost every single person that I, I sit down with who this process is a fit for is somebody who is learning, somebody who's coachable, and somebody who has experienced not being happy with two plus two right. They're going like, right. Or we, they go, hey, like, what's this all about? They're at least curious. And maybe they don't realize that they wanted five. They don't even realize that there's anything wrong with two plus two. And then you start having a conversation with them and you start asking them questions to make them think. And then they go, wait a minute. Yeah, there is something wrong here. What? Like maybe. And then they, and then they go and do the work and then they come back and they go, okay, I'm, I'm ready to start. Because now they've at least recognized that there's a problem. There's either one of two. They either already know there's a problem, or you help them, you know, kind of discover it, and then they go and take the action. So it's, it's again, pretty simple stuff.

Well, I said earlier, like, my daughter, she's 15 now, but she came home from preschool when she was three years old, and I don't remember the conversation exactly, but I think it was around dinner and we were just chatting and. And she says, daddy, you get what you get and you don't get upset. And I looked at her and I was like, what? Where did you get that? Well, my teacher at preschool said, you get what you get and you don't get upset. You know, my first reaction, I looked at my wife, I'm like, what kind of Soviet era preschool are we going to here? But, you know, as I explored a little further, you know, she got given a blue crayon and she wanted red or yellow or something. And the teacher said, well, you get what you get and, you know, get. You don't get upset. And I think this is what we're mostly teaching our society. Just accept what comes at you instead of saying, you know what? Well, how about we work on a strategy to get what you want? So right here, this little girl or boy beside you has red and you have blue. And why don't you guys work together and at the appropriate time trade and maybe bring somebody else in who has green and somebody else who has gamo and that way, if you change the way that we operate, you can all have every color instead of just saying, sorry, kid, you get what you get. You don't get upset. That's the way the world works. That's the way the banking system works. That's the way, you know, careers work. You know, you get what you get. Like there's a matching rsp. You either take it or you don't. But there's no, you can't have the extra three grand or extra four grand a year on your salary. It doesn't work that way. I'm like, well, I don't want to get what I get and not get upset. I actually want to be upset because I want something else. And it's that upsetness that leads you to change the equation. So, yeah, I, and I think in our world, right, we've been told that it's wrong to be upset. Just be nice. And so when you start to feel upset, you're told to just simmer down. But it's that upsetness that leads to being solutions oriented, to wanting to change the equation.

It's the opportunity to find, to find something on the other side of being upset.

Yeah, I mean, when you have an itch, you scratch it, you're not told, just sit there and live with the annoyance. And you know, that's the unfortunate. And that's, you know, helping people realize that, you know, the work I do with leadership development and companies, right, that we, you know, you have that annoying employee who's asking all sorts of why questions or as parents, you know, like, why, Daddy?

Why?

Why? Why? It's like, because I said so.

You get what you get.

You don't get upset. I'm like, oh, I'm almost, I'm guilty of saying to my own kids the very thing I'm trying to coach myself and my clients through. That annoying employee who asks all the why questions is the one that's going to save you from all the blind spots and the mistakes you're going to make when your kid asks why. That's real education, right? Critical thinking and helping them understand. But it takes time and energy and patience and real love for people to help them see and find the answers to the why. And. But I think true service to people is when, when you sit with it and those why and you, you help them find answers. And it's what I appreciate about all 180 some odd podcast viewers that I've watched multiple times because.

Provided options of B for me from A to C.

So yeah, we really appreciate that, and, and it's funny some of the things you, you said. It really brought in mind this, this commercial, this funny commercial we used to play at live events. You know, we'd have breaks at live events. And it was a banking commercial. And it's, it's a guy, he's sitting at the ATM and he's about to take some money out because he's going to go take the girlfriend out for dinner or whatever. And it says, this machine will charge you a three dollar fee. And it says accept it or reject. And it's all about the word accept it. And then it, then it goes to the, these two guys moving a couch down, you know, down a flight of stairs. He's like, oh, it's just a bank. What do you want, a hug? You know, and then, then it cuts to some guy who's like in the pool with his shirt and he's like, it's been this way since pants. And so these, these connotations of just accept it. And it's such a, for me, and I think this is probably, you know, Mike, where you and I connect a lot is fundamentally almost every fiber of my being says no, I don't want to do that. I want to, I want to know what is the reason or the purpose of why I should accept it so that I can make a choice about the right information to decide if it's, if it warrants me doing so. Let me be in the driver's seat of that decision making process. And Vern, I, you know, from our conversations, I would put both you and your wife in that same category. And so I'm just, you know, so blessed to, to have you a part of our community for infinite bankers and, and sharing the, the journey, but also the skills that you have and developed. And speaking of one of those skills, something I'd like you to touch on a little bit. You know, you're, you're a certified Berkman method consultant. And that's a, that's a really powerful assessment that helps people understand a great deal about themselves and how they can proactively interact with the world moving forward. Can you share a little bit about what, what, what caused you to go and get certified in that method and, and how is that utilized for you in your practice presently?

Yeah, well, I mean, I, growing up in leadership roles, mostly in sports and, and education, I was always called a leader. I don't know if anybody using that term knew what it meant at the time. I certainly didn't. It just added pressure.

So I, but I'd taken all the assessments, right? So I've done Colby and I'd done Myers, Briggs and all of them. And in 2010, I had the opportunity to, to take the Berkman, and it really did blow me away.

And to boil it down, you know, most of most assessments are purely descriptive, right? This is you, and this is good you, and this is bad you, right? And we say, well, when you wake up on the right side of the bed, you're like this. You wake up on the wrong side of the bed, you're like this. And, and you know that those ones don't help me because I know what good me and bad me is. But what the Berkman really had the ability to do for me was to be prescriptive, to say, here's why. Here's what you need from your environment. And if those needs are met, we're going to get good. If those needs aren't met, we're going to get bad. And so let's help put you in an environment where those needs are always going to be met. And in workplaces, you know, you've got a collection. You know, if you have 500 people working for you, that's 500 individuals with distinct needs. And how does a leader know how to meet all those needs of those people? It's. It's really challenging. So to help to have an assessment and gives a common language that really helps people get on the same page and understand, here's what we need.

Then we can do a better job of meeting those needs and creating an environment where everybody's fulfilled and happy and, and engaged in their work and really bringing value.

Amazing. And I, I suspect that you've seen to some degree transformative change in the organizations that you work and serve with by, by implementing that, that thought process.

Yeah, for sure. It helps you. It helps you find the. Put the right people in the right seats on the bus. It helps you figure out if people are. Should be in your organization or shouldn't be. Again, there's no right or wrongs. It's just what's best for that person and, and what's the right role for people. All those things, you know, a lot of conflict where, you know, people just aren't even aware that how they're speaking to the other person is rubbing that person the wrong way and they don't realize it. Right. I say conversation a lot of times, like playing catch, but mostly we, we act as if we're playing throw, right? So Vernon and I are playing catch. We call it Catch like I gotta throw it so that Vern can catch it. I'm not just there to show you how good I can throw it. I mean, 100 mile hour fastball to a 2 year old is called child abuse. Right, but, but if you've got a major league catcher, it's just playing, playing catch. And so we do that relationally and conversationally. The way we lead employees on a job site, understanding how the person receives what we're saying is actually more important than what we say. Right. We have to learn how people need to receive information so that they can effectively use that information. It's, it's common sense once you see it, but if you didn't see it, it's, it's not as easy. Right. We assume everybody's like us and they're just not.

Well, we appreciate you being a provider of common sense out in the real world, Mike. And so with that in mind, you know, thank you for sharing a little bit about your journey, learning about and embracing Nelson's concept, being a member of our community in regards to that and sharing the concept with others. Again, we are eternally grateful for that. My question really for you is thinking about all of the, the leadership opportunities that you've done over your lifespan. Helping people through not just the youth work of the past, but mentoring and showing the leaders of today through the organizations and the staff, the employees and the things that they do to be able to step into the world of tomorrow. You know, you're really showing up differently and, and I think you provide a very valuable, not just a service but, but an opportunity for people to grow. And so I'm just really curious about who you would say you would most want to be a hero to.

Yeah, good question. I mean, I think the obvious answer is first to my family and to my kids, but we'll take that one as a, as a guaranteed.

You know, the, the kind of vision statement I have for my life in business is caring for the entire world by coaching leaders. And the way I see that is that, you know, kids, kids are very affected by their home and the home is very affected by how the day went. And so when mom and dad spend the day at work, more time at work than they spend with their own families. And if that work environment is not great, if it's not empowering, if it's not encouraging, if it's not fulfilling, then mom and dad come home and they're a little bit on edge and there's more potential that they're short with each other. There's more potential. They're short with their kids and that creates instability in the home. That leads to instability on the playground, at school the next day when kids don't feel like they're like the home is really good. And so, you know, what keeps me going and working with clients, with business owners and leaders, emerging leaders within corporations is that there's kids at home, there's kids in school next to my kids whose day, their ability to learn and focus and feel secure and safe and all those things really is affected by mom and dad's job. And when mom and dad have a job where they're honored and respected and paid well and thriving and part of a team with vision and support and love, their families are stronger, their children are supported and equipped, better able to learn. And that creates generational impact. Generations of kids who know their love and have a firm foundation. And so for me, that's what keeps me going. I work with leaders not so they can make more money, but so that their employees, kids have a future. That, that's, that's what it is for me.

Reminds me of a guy who had four important rules. He developed a couple later on, but it started with four critical rules about thinking around our money. And the first rule had to do with thinking long range. Learn how to think three generations down the road. So through your actions, through your vision statement and through the work that you're doing, whether the organizations know or not, that's what you're, what's happening. You're creating a big impact and ripple. Ripples. You're, you're the stone in the pond that's creating the ripples in the water. Speaking of guys jumping into a pond, Vern and his buddy are going to jump into a frozen lake based on raising some money for an amazing cause. So if you haven't yet seen that video, we'll put a link to that hopefully in the description below. But Mike, this is fantastic. Thanks again for being with us. Really appreciate your time today. For those of you watching on YouTube, you'll probably notice that poof, magically beautiful little video just showed up right there. And probability is you should watch it because that's good stuff. Great content. Fill your brain, fill your life, enjoy your life and do more of the good stuff in the world because the world needs it.

Thanks for listening to the Wealth Without Bay street podcast where your wealth matters. Be sure to check out our social media channels for more great content there. Hit subscribe on your favorite podcast player and be sure to rate the show. We definitely appreciate it. And don't forget to share this episode with someone you care about. Join us on the next episode, where we continue to uncover the financial tools, strategies, and the mindsets that maximize your wealth.