265: The Nelson Nash Institute IBC Practitioner Council & Coaching

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So what is all the problem with social media and messing up this message of the infinite banking concept? We see it, we hear it, we're a little bit tired of it. I'm joined by one of my good friends, Mary Jo Erman today we're going to talk a little bit about that, plus some other important things that we've got on the docket now. Mary Jo making a return appearance of course on the wealth on Main street podcast. Successful podcaster herself and a best selling author. Mary Jo, as always, pleasure to see you even though it's only been approximately like seven days since I saw you last. So thanks for being on the program today.

You're welcome. Thanks for having me. I'm excited.

Now. We, we, we just had our annual conference, the Nelson Ash Institute think tank, of course, a phenomenal event as it always is. Something you and I look forward to. In fact, it's how we met originally. I think it's been, I mean, maybe you've missed one in 15 years. I've missed about one in 15 years, something like that. So we're, we're, we're kind of the, we've now moved in, I guess into quote unquote, veteran status at that venue. And, and yet I think when we met we were probably both brand new as our first time there or something to that effect.

Yep, Yep. You are 100% right. 2011.

Yeah. Do you remember when we showed up with all the crazy shirts?

Yep. You had Canada hockey jerseys on.

And now nowadays everyone's showing up with theme shirts. So it's a, it's kind of turned into a bit of a trend. Not going to suggest that the Canadians brought it down there, but you know, it's possible.

I think the Canadians set the tone. Yes, yes. And it just caught on. Like it took the US a while to catch on to this technique, but this year there were a lot of, there were a lot of shirts. It's sort of like a cult.

Yes. Everyone had their, and their teams had their own shirts on. So it's a lot of fun. It makes it interesting. It's another topic of conversation for people, which is pretty cool. Now there were some unique things about this think tank. Of course we did it in Orlando, Florida, had the pleasure to emcee again at the event. And we did a couple different things. So a few things I wanted to ask you about to give some perspective so people listening in, maybe they don't know what the think tank is. They've never attended. But we also have a lot of amazing colleagues and advisors who listen into the show as well. So I like to get some perspective from you. Number one, a little bit of a rundown on your perspective of the think tank itself. And then I want to hear a little bit about what prompted you to bring your daughter Haley with you to the think tank, because I think that's going to be a fun part of the conversation as we look to embrace younger people getting more aware and deeper understanding of Nelson's message, I think.

Well, I mean, obviously I love the think tank and it's not those that know me know I'm honest. So it's not always for the speakers. I. I am like, it's being recorded. I can watch speakers later. But I. It's the connection of all the people. Like you can't replace the connection between you and Jason and Winnie and all the people that I met the very first time. I think it's awesome. I don't understand why. I think it's underutilized, frankly, with practitioners. Like, I've missed one in 15 years and I've missed said to many people. I've given up anniversaries. I. My husband's. I, I forgot. I forgot. But my husband's birthday was the day we came back. So I'm like, oh, it's your birthday? Didn't know forgot so. But it is. I'd have missed it. Like we were not big birthday anniversary people anyway. But I think that this is our business, this is our living. This is what we do. Why are you not at the one thing per year that is helping your business and connecting with the people that do exactly what you do? I think that's crazy, but that's just my 2 cents on the matter. It is so fun to get to meet everybody. And then even like the coaching academies you and I do together, it's just meeting of the people and seeing where they're at. And now that we're the old farts on the. In the group because we're the old people in the group, even though we're not old, it's really like you're the veterans and it's so fun to help the new people and talk to the new people and see what they're doing and. And they bring you back to Your struggles. Somebody was talking to me at Think tank and they're like, Mary Jo, somebody called me and it was. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I forgot that feeling. I remember the first time my phone rang because somebody called me instead of me calling them, that was, oh my gosh, isn't that the best feeling ever? Like it takes you back and helps you remember where you came from to where we're at.

We all need an opportunity to be humbled from time to time.

I suspect it's just so it's fun to celebrate that with them and then remember ourselves. But yeah, so I brought Haley to answer that question. I brought HALEY because she's 19. And yeah, we don't really know what we're doing yet.

You know, like, maybe someone can relate to that. And you can type in the comments below if you felt like you didn't know what you were doing at 19 years of age. And I can't type the comments because I'm recording, but I would put something down there as well.

Yeah, I, I think my comment would be, I didn't know what I was doing when I was 30. So there's, you know, I mean, I was, I'm 50, so I was what, 35 when I found this? So I didn't know what I was doing at 19. I was just doing. And so she's just not sure if she wants to do this, if she wants to teach this, what she wants to do. I talk about it all the time. She has told me, mom, I was not made to work 8 to 5, that I have no time for self care and I don't want to do what you do. I don't want to be behind a computer all day. And I want to sort of shake my head and go, what? That you have to work 8 to 5. But after you think about it, you're like, why? Why did we buy into that and do our. Does our life really have to be that way? Probably not. So she wants some freedom to do whatever she wants to do. But it really was to say, hey, why don't you come.

See what it's all about, See if you even like it and then we'll go from there. Well, she is her mother's child. And so she's like, I have no idea what any of those people were talking about. But it was so fun. I made all these new friends, you know, and so.

And, and it took me a long time to understand Infinite Banking. It took me like the product itself was confusing to me and it took Me a long time to get that. But. But she gets the overall concept of everything. Like, that's easy for her. And so, yeah, it was awesome. It was an awesome experience for her to decide if she's going to do it or not do it. And she came home and I didn't say a word to her. I said, okay, well we'll you have a nice day. And she went to her house, and I went to my house and she texted me on Tuesday. We got back on Sunday, didn't talk to her Monday. She texted me on Tuesday and said, mom, where do I get the book to get licensed? I'm like, okay, this is where you get the book. Book is being delivered. It's up to you to do it. I'm not hounding you. I'm not pushing you. You better show me that you want to do this on your own. So we'll see what happens.

That's incredible. I mean, you know, it's something that probably you did almost on a whim, not knowing the result, but wanting to have an opportunity, connection with her. It sounds. And you guys had a fun, fun time. Like watching you guys being there together, I thought was a blast. And I saw her, I didn't get a chance to connect with her a great deal. I was a little bit preoccupied myself at the event, but just seeing her interact with other people I thought was really important. And she made some great friends. Of course, another individual, a good friend of ours, Winnie Lau. Shout out to Winnie Lau. She's amazing. I like to say. She's my sister from another Mr. And she was there with her daughter, who I've known for like 20 years. Of course, she's 25 years old now. And so that was really cool to see as well. And I, I feel like Haley and Imagine managed to connect a little bit there. And there was a number of young people. In fact, you made a point to have me mention it on day three of the Think Tank, which is. Was never previously something, but it's something that for those of you who are authorized practitioners, if you're coming to Think Tank next year, first of all, you better be there. Secondly, make sure you plan your arrangements to stay for the third day. We have the Connection Zone session. That's a high event. That is tremendously valuable. And people actually walked away from that event on Saturday, last Saturday, with a business plan on how they can grow their business, you know, fundamentally through the, the interactions that we took place there. And I'm curious, you know, we did something different this year. Mary Jo you got a chance to, of course, to show up as a leader in the way that you do. Tell me about your experience in the third day of the Connection Zone, the half day event where we did something a little bit unique. And what did you enjoy about that?

The Connection Zone was fire, man. It was so good. It was, it was connecting. It wasn't so much planning because we. Those people that know me also know I'm not a planner. I don't do goals. I just don't write anything down. It's all in my head. I just do what I need to do. So I'm not in much of a planner, but I really like the connection part. Like I got to sit with Barry Page. I. Barry has been an IBC practitioner forever. I have never had an opportunity to just sit down and talk to him and hear his story. He's going door to door selling books, man. He is like. He is. It's so. It was so fun to talk to Justin and the people we've met at Coaching Academy and just really get to visit with people that you normally don't connect with because you sort of. It's not like we're cliquish, but whoever wants to talk to you comes up and talks to you. Right? You and I are very busy. It's like we're working the rooms on different. It's like we were on different sides of the rooms. Everybody that wanted to talk to us, talk to us. But there are some people that we miss that have kind of been in the industry a long time and we ended up not having the opportunity to visit with them.

And so it was just so good to connect. And that was a piece too that it gave Haley and all. Like I had a couple of guests there and so it gave Haley and imagine those young people time to really talk to other people. Because otherwise it was just a social, you know, and it wasn't actually talking about at the social. You're not always talking about the industry. Right. And here you were talking about what people are doing and how they're doing it and what questions do they have. And so, yeah, it was awesome. It was awesome. And some people still think the third day of think tank is optional. So I don't know why anything is optional. It's not. Everything is optional. I mean, it's optional to come. But if there's three days planned, why are we only planning for two? I don't know. Like, again, I don't understand why we're not even coming.

But if there's one event and you have a business that's solely or. Or holistically, primarily focused on teaching Nelson Nash's concept. And you have an opportunity to be there as a. Even as a guest, but primarily as an authorized practitioner. And you're not making that a priority in your business. I. I just have to ask why. There's a number of people.

I have to ask if your business is priority.

Is your. Yeah. And. And is this a priority element of your business, or are you up to. Up to something else? Because there's a number of people who simply have not attended in a number of years. And I personally think. And we. We'll see what direction the Nelson National Institute goes on this. It's up to the board of directors. But I personally think that you should be required to attend one, a minimum of one every three years or every fourth year, assuming that maybe you had a death in the family or some, you know, find, you know, maybe you're getting heart surgery or something you're not able to attend. Like there are reasonable circumstances why people can't attend. I understand, but I really do think it should be a minimum of one every three years because there's so much possibility and potential and connection that's there, and people tend to, I don't want to say divert, but maybe get, you know, through proximity. The farther you away you are away from something, maybe the less it is in your mind when you get into that room of people. It's extremely difficult to not be fired up and really activated about Nelson and his core elements in his message. And you mentioned something that got me thinking. You know, one of the gentlemen I got to connect with on the first day at registration, who I always see every year, but I didn't, you know, I don't necessarily get a chance to speak to every year like you'd indicated. And the gentleman, his name's Thomas Young. I don't know if he had a chance to talk to Thomas. Really neat guy. He's been in the business a long time. He's been in the business for 49 years. He's 75 years old, and he was more fired up than. Than. Than people one half of his age in the room. He was elevated. And I talked to him, and he had. In August of 2024, he said he had his best summer ever in the business, doing amazingly well. And then he ended up going and getting quintuple bypass surgery. I'm like, well, first of all, I didn't even know they did that. That's crazy. And I said to him, I made this joke, I said, so you mean to tell me even though Nelson's gone, you couldn't let him have his quadruple bypass? You had to one up himself somehow, you know, so he thought that was pretty funny.

And I'm thinking now he's uninsurable.

Yeah, well, he's, he's 75 year, he's uninsurable, but he's got a whole life. He's got paid up additions, he's still buying more insurance every day because of the system. But he was so animated and excited. He's like, you know, after that experience, you thought I was fired up before that. I'm, I'm more fired up now. So it was just so good to see, you know, again at, at, at the age of 75. So many people are thinking that they're going to turn it in at 75, like they're, they're winding down. And here's a gentleman, he's winding up, he's, he's turning the crank, getting ready to, to take on the next 10 years, the next decade and make it his best decade ever. And I thought, wow, that's amazing. Well, how often do you get to go to a event or a place where you can be surrounded by some, somebody like that, people that are animated about helping others in a way that Nelson's message allows us to do, is really, really a fun energy to be around and to not make that commitment of being there. I just don't understand.

Right. And it's, here's the thing. For the people that are listening, that aren't practitioners, your, your industry of where you work is the same exact thing. You have conferences, you have things that you can go to. Why are you not going? Why are you not making those connections? You can be the lone ranger, but at some, at some point you're going to need help of other people. Like I'm gonna email Richard or I'm gonna text Jason or Winnie or whoever in the industry because I need help. And over the years you need that. I have a con, I have an agent that works with me. And last year I didn't, I told her not to go because she had, she had gone to my, my client event and then within three weeks she would have been at Think Tank and she would went from Think tank to her European trip.

Right.

And so I was like, oh my gosh, that is so much travel. Do not miss your family for this event when you're just starting, like, you're good, you're good. She, she didn't yell at me, but she set me straight. When she got home, I overheard.

She was. She was not happy that you told her not to go the first year. I think. I think to some degree she was. You know, there's a little bit of comedy there, but. But she was. She wanted to make it very clear and known that she. She definitely would have wished that she had a clear opportunity.

And she told me that, which is awesome. And I thanked her for that, because I said I didn't. Like, I was just trying to protect her financially. I was trying to protect her from not missing out on family stuff, right? Because she had gone to. So she would have gone to so many things. So I was thinking, like, don't, like, don't, like, rearrange your whole life for this. It's just your first year. Like, you got your whole life. And she's like, I would have done so much better in my first year had I come, because I would have had extra mentors that I could have called upon. And I'm like, I never thought of that. Right. I was just thinking, hey, God, you've been traveling a lot. This is crazy. And that's not my spot to think about. So I was in the wrong. But she, like.

It'S done. It's in the past. She's golden. She's going to be fantastic. But it really is, like, if we're not going.

How is that slowing us down? And we don't make those extra contacts, we don't make those friendships. We don't have those other mentors. And that helped me. The first year I went, I met all those other people, and I was like, well, you know, the person I started out with didn't work out, and at least I had other people to go to because I knew those people. Otherwise I'd be out of the industry. I was just thinking about this the last couple of days, and I saw. I heard a podcast today talk about the average farmer is 59 and a half. And that's horrible, you know? And I'm like, is it horrible? The average life insurance agent is in their upper 50s, but, my God, I'm 50. Like, it took me some time to get here. How many people fall out of this industry? So we're saying that the average age is bad because it's older, but you have to work to get where you're at. Like, it's not like it happens overnight. And so we have to start. We have to start somewhere. It doesn't matter if you're old, if you're not, whatever. But it is nice to have those mentors to be able to reach out to.

Yeah, totally. I appreciate that. Now, you know, we did a couple other interesting.

But now I'm gonna say to her, I heard you were mad. You're telling people you're mad.

You're gonna say, I was talking to Richard and I was talking to Richard.

And he said that you were mad.

Yeah, well, well, her and I got into a fun conversation about Colby as well at one of the evenings, which is nice. It doesn't take long for me to get animated when we talk about the Colby A index. But not, not to digress too much now, this year we did something else kind of different. We had what I called coaching corners. So during the breaks we had longer breaks of the think tank, some something that the, the membership had been asking for. So we had approximately 2530 minute breaks and we had different stations set up in the room on the interior so people could go out and connect with the sponsors and the life companies and so on and one another. And then we had these stations. So we had one for kind of like the veterans group, the experienced practitioner. We had our council corner. So yourself, myself, Bruce Wayner. Granted, I didn't get a chance to really go in there because I was a little bit busy with the MC situation. And then we had one for the coaching academy. Now your perspective, I just want your thoughts on that. What did you enjoy about that experience? What were some of the comments you heard from people attending the event?

Well, honestly, I didn't go to them either, Richard. I can't, I can't even lie about it. I was so busy talking to people on those that maybe didn't go that I didn't even attend any of them. And I got home and thought, what the heck, I didn't even go to those. Why didn't I go to those? I have no idea why I did not go to those.

But you didn't go to all of them except the one that you had to facilitate?

Because I. Yeah, the one that I facilitated, I was in.

And there was a crowd of like 25 people around you at that time, by the way, Because I did happen.

To look, so, I mean, obviously I went to that. That one was great. That one was. That one went well.

But I did not go to the other ones. So I can't, I can't. All I can say is next year I'll be attending those because I think they were amazing. I think it was super smart to do them. But why I didn't go to Them, I don't, obviously I don't even remember them, so that means people were talking to me. I don't know.

The event does become a bit of a blur and I did see good groups of people at most of the sessions and when I spoke to some of the other people who volunteered to, to handle those roles, but also, you know, some of the comments about people who had attended them, I received incredibly positive feedback how much value that was, especially to new people. They had that time to say, hey, look, maybe I don't know anyone in the room yet, but here's a direction I can go and I can ask specific questions of somebody. And I think that was really tremendously valuable. Now I wanted to change gears a little bit. We have an upcoming coaching academy coming up here in May, which I know is the date that you unfortunately won't be able to join us.

No, I'm coming.

Oh, you're coming. Okay. You've reorganized your calendar.

Yeah.

Oh, so grat. That's great. So I get. So the great news is I get to see you again in about a month or so's time. Maybe when this airs, it'll be at the time that we're doing the, that coaching Academy. So this is something that was, I think I'll call it, you know, demanded, requested from the membership. Although we didn't know the format at the council, we've been talking about this now for two years and being able to implement some direction how we can add more value or more education to our practitioner community. And also a lot of the new people coming in, you know, in the last year, year and a half, there's been a pretty good spike and increase in applications that the Nelson Nash Institute has received for people to go through the interview process to see if they can join the practitioner body, you know, become a, become an authorized practitioner. And there's a, there's a, I'll say issue with mentorship and trying to find good people to mentor individuals and make that a functional aspect. So now going forward, anyone who joins the Nelson Nash Institute and is approved, they go through the interview process, they get their check mark, they're able to get started, they pay their initial fees. Their initial fee is also going to include access to the first coaching academy. They have to attend one in the very first 12 months, which is hugely impactful. We've had a number of people attend, a couple back to back ones and we're seeing from your perspective of mine, we've had these conversations one on one, I would say we're seeing an elevated, almost an exponential growth in those individuals who are attending that. So give me some perspective from yourself, from what you've seen both facilitating and what you see now. Having done a couple of these events.

I think it's awesome because people are actually taking away what they need to create a business, right? They can talk about IBC because we break down Nelson's book so they can talk about ibc. They know how to talk to a client using byob, but they also then know like we're giving them a 30 day book challenge and, and they're generating clients where we've been starving before and they've been struggling to build their business. We're giving them all the tools that they need to go out and actually utilize to create income coming back to them and share the message correctly so that they know exactly how to use the book. I think there's a lot of practitioners, myself included, that I didn't use a book correctly for a very long time because I didn't understand the book for a very long time and I wasn't taught to use the book. So I just coming to think tanks, just being involved with like, and the more that I talk to people like you and Jason, because you're very good at using the book, the more of the coaching academies I go to, the more I talk about it, the more I read and study the book, the more I talk about it. And so I think that us, I think the coaching academies are awesome because we're saying, hey, here's the book, here's how to use the book. Don't just buy it and give it to somebody and then never use it again. This is how you use it to explain the concept. It's not something I made up. It's not something I'm gonna, it's not Mary Jo's idea, it's. We have the manual, let's use the manual. So I think it's game changer for everybody. Even if they have a mentor. If your mentor is not using the book, it's not correct.

Well, I'm glad to hear you say that. And so of course, for anyone that doesn't know if you're tuning in for the first time, we're talking about the book becoming your own banker by R. Nelson Nash. And it is, the coaching academy is heavily, heavily focused on that. I mean, we're not replacing Nelson's message. We're, we're expanding on and educating to Nelson's message with the core elements of the book. And you know, I, I think, and we did This a number of times, especially on the, the connection zone day of our think tank, really expressing the importance to any of the advisors what the value of the book is. And so we, you know, talk about the 30 book challenge. Selling 30 books in 30 days. It's not that you're selling a book. What you're actually selling is you're selling the transformation that this book has in your thinking and in your financial life over generations. And you, the way that you do that is you quite simply communicate what impact it had on your own life. I mean, it's that easy. So we're talking about the impact of the book, not saying, here's everything you're going to learn in the book. Here's how this book changed and impacted my life in a dramatic way that I don't even know how to convey in words to you. And for $30 or 20$25American, you can get this book in your hands and you could experience that transformation for yourself. And so it' really powerful. And I, I think there was a lady, a wonderful lady named Susan. She attended a coaching academy. She took on the book challenge and I think she sold 30 books in like 30 days, roughly speaking. She immediately booked 15 appointments. And I think she immediately got about five of those people moving forward with some applications into underwriting. And, and as I recall, one of those individuals she brought with her to the think tank. You know, I mean, that's incredible. So that all happened in the span of less than six, you know, six months. And so she's gone from having just getting started, not really having a business yet, to now beginning to build a durable and sustainable business practice because she knows exactly what to do and she's teaching to the core message, which is really, really phenomenal. So I love to see success stories.

The crazy thing about that, Richard, is who's her mentor? I don't know who her mentor is. I've never asked her. We've spent a lot, I've spent a lot of time talking to her, but I've never asked her who her mentor is. So by coming to Coaching Academy, it was a whole different type of mentoring that got her there. Right. Because Nelson said It was a 10 book challenge. And then.

I'm like, 10 books isn't going to do anything you're going to starve at with 10 books. So you should be doing 30. And then think tank, you always have to one up me. So then you said 72.

72 books in four months. That's the new challenge. Yeah, because that's what A case of books is there's 72 books.

Richard has to one up me. So I'm going to say, well, why can't you do. What'd you say? 72 books in four months? Well, what's that?

It's only 18 books a month.

But.

You can do it.

I'm going to stick with the 30.

We need to stick with the 30. You're making it too easy on them, Richard.

The end result is that there was something they could commit to that was actionable and people could take on a challenge, something that they could rally around and they could directly see immediate success in their business. And here's the thing.

If you're not selling books, people want to measure their success.

By how many. How many life insurance policies can I write in a year? How much money can I make in a year? I don't care. I don't care how many lives I write in a year. And I don't care how much insurance I write in a year. I measure mine by how many books can I sell in a week. I just got out of our marketing meeting. We sold 59 books last week. So we're anywhere between 40 to 100 books a week that continually like. And the, the ratio of how many people are actually gonna understand it, make an appointment. It's pretty low on the totem pole. Right. So we have to, if we want to spread a message, we can't do 18amonth. In my opinion, you should be doing more than that. And we should be. We should be doing 30 books in 30 days because you. How are you going to spread a message? And how are we going to change the banking system in our own personal finances if we don't hit enough people?

Yeah, that's right. We have to be able to see the people and do it in a way that, that makes sense. And so speaking of books, of course, we have another book coming out co authored by the amazing Dan Allen. And I know that a manuscript is going to land on your desk at some point in time, very soon here, because you've graciously agreed to provide a forward for the book, assuming that you like the content, which I think you will. So thanks for that, Mary Jo. For those of you listening in that book is grow your own capital, control how you finance the operation, create the ultimate line of credit and keep the farm in the family. That is the objective. So not trying to steal any of Mary Jo's great content, but anything, we're just trying to add to and expand on what she's already done. And provide some additional insight and clarity for people in the farming community. And there's a lot of fun there, of course with Dan Allen having a good farming background, used to train horses and everything. He's a really neat guy and it's interesting we talked about people of different ages. You know, Dan's a couple of years older than I am. You know, he's, he's in a, in a senior capacity relative to me in the age group. I love that guy. Amazing guy. And he's fired up about this. You know, it's a second career for him, having a really long standing oil and gas career and he is fired up about teaching this message of infinite banking. And it's really, really fun to see.

Yeah, I'm excited, I'm excited for his book because here's the thing I wrote, obviously Farming without the bank and Life without the Bank.

Right.

It's just, it's not to replace Nelson's book. It's just to make it simple for those of us that maybe aren't that smart. And so it, Dan's book is just going to be a different language for different, for people that maybe don't get my book and they can have his book, it really doesn't matter as long as they're good and they all carry the same message. Fantastic like that the, the farming industry needs help, a lot of help. And so it's, I'm excited for him.

Well and we talked about the niche of farming and you do a great presentation that you created for the coaching academy about the power of creating a niche to work in. And you and I worked on some math on your, you know, how the numbers are of total farmers and the amount of farmers. And you said, well cut 50% of those out because only 50% of the farmers give a damn about their money. You know. And so we worked on some of those numbers and I think if I remember correctly, you're serving something to the effect of 0.1% of the 1% of the 1% of farmers or something like that.

Yeah. So if the farming population is about 1% of the population and only about 1% of farmers actually care about their money. Right. So even if we look at just regular people like don't non farmers. Right. Just the population as a whole, only about 3% of those people even care about money. And so if you've got. And farmers are 1%, so of those only 1% even think that there's an opportunity or a problem with financing the farm. And so I'm serving a very Very small amount of people.

Because those are about the only ones that care. So there's a whole bunch of people that I could be serving. So it does not matter if it's my book. It doesn't matter if it's Dan's book, It doesn't matter if it's Nelson's book. I don't care. Get the book into their hands that they're willing to read and they're willing to follow through on does not matter. Even if, even if somebody reads Farming without the bank and then they read Dan's book and they're like, whoa, two people are saying the exact same thing. Well, I'm going to take action now. Right. And that is huge. I think that is key. It's no different than your, you and Jason, your books coinciding with Nelson's books. The more we can hear the message and we can create some of that noise Nelson talks about, the less odd we will be.

Well, I'm glad you brought up the noise because Nelson did say that we need to develop financial noise canceling headsets. And now there's what the general public needs to do and then there's also maybe what some advisors need to do. Maybe some advisors need some noise canceling headsets about what's going on in the rest of the marketplace. Now every now and again, of course, we get a great comment or a share, you know, as the practitioner counsel or perhaps you'll send a message to myself or Jason, we had a recent comical string of some that you forwarded over on commentary that happens, you know, on certain like groups that are, whether it's a Facebook group or just, just comments that come across, your feedback that just don't make any sense at all. And you know, there is a degree of people who are saying a lot of confusing things which is leading the consumer and the general public astray and it's making them think things that just aren't accurate about the process. What are some of the examples that show up when you think about that, Mary Jo? Or some of the common elements that you find?

Well, Richard, now I forgot them. I didn't know I was going to have to come prepared. I mean, I can go into a group and find any given comment at any given time. That's dumb. And a lot of them.

A lot of these comments go back to rates of return and what are we investing in for crypto? What is your rate of return in the policy? Oh, look at so and so company released X amount of dividend. What this percentage of dividend. Who Cares like a. They have a dividend, but the dividend is a formula. There's so. We're so stuck on the numbers. And Nelson never talked about rates of return. He never. That is not part of infinite banking in any way, shape or form. And so in order, like, why don't, why are we even having that conversation? I don't even remember what it was that I sent to you guys that I was just like, really?

Well, there's some, there's some ones around premium finance and of course, groups that are talking about, you know, investment options in index universal life contracts, but yet they're claiming to be talking about infinite banking when clearly the moment you talk about premium finance and, and index universal Life, you immediately are outside of the realm of infinite banking, which is a trademarked term, registered a trademark term, by the way, from the Nelson Nash Institute. So, I mean, those are some immediate red flags. And so that, that is already confusing to the general public if they're seeing that kind of commentary and they're automatically outside of the realm of what Nelson had intended with his message.

Yeah, I mean, index to. If you just read the book, it just says in there, this is not universal life. Right. It's in the book. And so, And Nelson brags about the fact that he never sold one of those policies. There was this little girl on TikTok and I'm sure she's lovely person, but she was talking about how.

Her TikTok said, and this was a while ago, and I, but I remember her TikTok said, becoming your own banker is universal life. And using that to borrow against the infinite banking concept is taking your whole life policy to the bank and using it as collateral, becoming your own banker. The infinite banking concept, it's the same thing. It's not two different things. So I was really nice and I said, I, you know, I stitched her video and I said, maybe your mentor.

Maybe your mentor didn't tell you this because she was young, she was in her 20s. And I said, maybe your mentor didn't tell you this, but just, you know, like, it's the same thing. It was developed by this wonderful man on the back cover. And none of it is about universal life and nor is it about leveraging the bank. And she blocked me. And so then my second video wasn't very nice. So I was like, well, now you just don't want to learn, you know, so there is so much misconception out there and there is so much noise around it because we're trying to make it sexy. We're trying to glorify it, we're trying to make it about rates of return. And if you want a rate of return in your policy, maybe, just maybe you should take an IRA out and invest in the market. But don't put your life insurance in the market. Like I don't, I don't know why we would be putting our life insurance in the market. It doesn't make any sense.

Well, you know, further to your comment, for this young gal, and she's not alone, there's many others doing these kind of things. The introduction of the book, page three and four of the book is really, really important. I encourage everyone in the letter I send on how to read the book that you actually read page three and four and you read it twice before you move on. You don't go anywhere else before that. You read page 85 first, then you read page three and four, but you read it two times. The very first paragraph, becoming your own banker. The infinite banking concept is the text for a 10 hour course of instruction about the power of dividend paying whole life insurance. Not universal life, not anybody else's life insurance, not term life insurance, not any other kind of insurance. It is not a sales tool for life insurance agent. It is education that the life insurance industry should have taught during the last 200 years. So Nelson says it in the very first paragraph what it is not and what it is about. And it's all about the power of. And he doesn't say that the concept is whole life insurance. He says that the concept is, is, is the concept and whole life insurance is something different. So again you have the process and the product separated. So there's a lot of confusion there. And here's another thing that that came up and one of the messages I back that you had sent a while ago and it was some commentary about people talking about rpuing a policy which people in our podcast wouldn't know about because it's not something Jason and I ever really talk about. So for those of you listening in who aren't familiar, it's not. Well, I do actually think it smells like rpu. You know, it kind of smells, but it stands for reduced paid up. So it's taking a policy and saying, hey look, we don't ever want to put another diamond of this policy. Let's take what's in there and let's find out how much remaining amount of insurance we're going to reduce the policy to a reduced amount but a paid up amount so we never have to put another diamond in fact, if you wanted to put more in, you actually can't put any more in because it won't allow any more premium. Now, for those of you listening in, the only thing that grows a policy or grows a system of policies, pure and simple, is more premium. So if you wanted to grow and you were thinking long range, like Nelson Nash talks about, his very first golden rule, is to think long range. If you're going to go and RPU or reduce and then pay up, a policy so you can never put any more into it. You're. You're killing it. It's like taking a tree that's growing and that can't contract in nature and you're deciding that you're going to stop, you're going to dig a hole around the tree so it can't get any more nutrients and it's going to starve to death. And then you're going to cut off most of the branches that produce fruit. That's essentially what you're saying you're going to do. It's just not appropriate. So is there a place where maybe an RPU makes sense? Well, it's a non forfeiture option. If the only other option a person had was to cancel the policy outright and there was an option to maintain some kind of insurance coverage, hey, there's a viable reason there that's called a non forfeiture option, which gives you some capacity to do something different. But it's not a strategy. And we're seeing in some of these groups, Mary Jo, that people are promoting this as almost a strategy, as part of the process that they're teaching people. I'm just so bamboozled and confused by it.

Yeah, the rpu. I've done them. I've had clients that have had to do them. Right. We don't have any more income coming in for whatever reason. It has been a legitimate thing that we have to do. In 15 years, I've done two. Right. It's not something you do often, but to use it as a strategy. The if we are going to RPU a policy so that we can start another policy because we think that that's making us more money, it is a really good way for your agent to make commission. Okay. There is no reason that we should be starting new policies. I explain it.

Even, even when we see policies that they're like, oh, hey, the PUA should drop off after year four or year seven. That's a really nice way for me to make more commission, but it's a really shitty way for you to have to recapitalize that next policy again. And so I explain it to my farmers and non farmers listening aren't going to get this, but I'll explain it a couple ways for you. It's like having a really nice cow that's just throwing, like, the nicest calves, man. She. You take those calves of the sale barn, and they're making a ton of money, and you're like, oh, yep, I'm done. Not gonna breed her again. You know, like, we're done. We got four or five years out of her. She's good. No. Any good rancher is gonna know you're gonna flush her. You're gonna take all the embryos out of her. You are gonn embryo transplants. You are going to do it all to save anything you can from that cow. Right? It's no different than saying, I'm gonna. I'm gonna buy this flipper of a house and I'm gonna put all this money into it, and then I'm gonna rent it for four years and I'm out. I'm gonna go buy another one and I'm gonna rebuild that one and rent it for four years. You don't get anywhere. All you've done is put costs in again and again and again. Why are we doing that? Why do we keep starting over? How about we just keep feeding the animal? Like, why?

I was doing a quick assessment on a. On a client statement here just actually this morning, and for every dollar that they're putting into their this particular one contract, you know, over the span of the year, there's a. There's a $67 that shows up. So every dollar of premium creates a minimum of $1.67. And the previous year was $1.42. So it went from $1, creating $1.42 to $1, creating $1.67 in asset value. How many times do you want to put the dollar in?

Right?

If it could do that? The question you really should be asking if we're going to think about our thinking is how big can I make that dollar? Do you want to be putting in a single dollar, or do you want to be putting in a hundred thousand of those dollars? So if you had a hundred thousand going in and a hundred thousand produced 167 every time you did it and you knew it was going to get better the next year, why on earth would you stop putting the 100,000 in? It's in a logical decision. And so that's some of the misleading stuff that's going on out there in the marketplace. And Mary Jo, I appreciate you highlighting it and sending it over to me when we get a chance to discuss it. And of course, you know, with everyone in the Nelson Ash Institute, the practitioner council, supporting the objectives of the, of the Nelson Ash Institute, but of course, communicating about the messaging that's going on there so we can all work on our improvements. Myself, I know yourself. Other members of the council were actively trying to see how we can improve our own language and how we communicate into the marketplace. And I think we're doing a good job. But like anybody else, we always have room for improvement.

But most of the people. Let me just clarify. Most of the people in this group are not saying this stuff are not authorized practitioners. The authorized practitioners are piping up in this group and saying that's not right. And we have to be careful how we do it so we don't get kicked out. Because the guy that manages the group is not authorized. He's all about rates of return and crypto and all these other things outside the market. We have to remember a couple of things. And I've talked about. I don't remember who I just talked about this with, but Nelson got caught with his pants down. Okay. In the 80s, he was leveraged. He got caught. Are we gonna put. Did we not learn anything from that? Why are we leveraging ourselves outside of the policy, going to the banks and premium financing. This is not about using a bank to pay premium. You're your Robin, Peter. To pay Paul. What? This is not about a rate of return and getting. Oh, I'm going to invest that money somewhere where I can get a 10, 15, 20% rate of return. That's great if you can do that in a conservative type manner. But when we get so aggressive about it, we too are going to get caught with our pants down. And a lot of people think, oh, well, it's no big deal. I just have these loans in my policy to myself. You do. And if you can't make the interest payment that compounds yearly, that policy could easily blow up on you. And now what is your cost for all of those dollars in there? And I, and I'm gonna, I'm just gonna add something about how I sort of explain this to clients. So I do a lot in Death benefit is extremely important to me and my clients because a lot of what we do in the farming sector is estate planning type stuff as well. So I want you to have the cash today, but we're also going to look at the death benefit and what that cost per dollar is. And so I really look at that and I tell people, all right, if you give the life insurance company $0.30, they're going to give your heirs a dollar income tax free. So if I'm standing on a street corner and I'm like, hey, you got three dimes, I'll give you a buck.

You're gonna go work a corner for three dimes, right? You're gonna be like, oh my. And then you're gonna say, are you insane? Why are you doing that? Why are you giving me a dollar in exchange for 30 cents? That doesn't make any sense to me. Right? We would think it's some sort of craziness, but you're gonna go find dimes any chance you can get. This is exactly what the insurance company does. You give them 30 cents, they give you a dollar, 40 cents, 50 cents, whatever that cost to death benefit is. And they're exchanging that for a dollar income tax free. We can't. This is just how it works. So you're exactly right when you said, how many of those dollars are you going to put in? Are you going to go find quarters? What are you going to do? You're going to find. Why are you not looking for as much money as you can to put through that system?

System, yeah, absolutely. 100 agree. Mary Jo, I appreciate you so much. I'm excited we're going to see you again here. I'm getting a chance to see you much more frequently than a one year turnaround time because of Think Tank. So I really appreciate that because I love it when we get together. We have so much fun and you provided a lot of both fun energy and insight here for our listeners. Those of you who haven't had a chance to tune in to Mary Jo's podcast, I encourage you to do so. She has some, some great, great episodes. Thank you again for your commitment to Nelson's message, your great books, and for those of you of course, turning in on YouTube, poof. You're going to see a magical little thing that says, oh my God, here's a great video we recommend. Please watch me. So go ahead, click that and watch that next video. There's no such thing as having arrived in knowledge. And for everyone else, we will connect with you again next week.