266: Farmer Uses Infinite Banking to Control The Farm Operation

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So how exactly are farmers using this infinite banking concept to make their life better, to have more control over the money that's flowing through your hands? Well, going to learn a little bit about that today, of course, we're joined by one of those farmers. We've got Renee Nielsen here. Now, Rene loves farming. He loves the land. He's got his wife and his three children. And interestingly enough, he was born in Denmark, so he's now calling southern Alberta home. And he's been in Canada for a number of years. We'll discuss that a little bit. But he loves farming, and he loves what he's now able to do by incorporating the powerful infinite banking concept created by R. Nelson Nash and embracing that into his farming operation. Now I'm joined also with my good friend Roman Pushkar, who's joined. Joining us again on the podcast, made a number of appearances. Roman has the pleasure of being able to serve and assist Renee in all this activity. So we're gonna have a fun discussion. Renee, welcome to the show today.

Thank you very much.

Awesome. Well, I'm excited about this. You know, before we hit the record button, we had a nice little bit of a chance to connect and talk about some of the things you've been up to. Here's where I always like to begin, as we are, you know, doing this as part of our, you know, our client series. Renee, at some point in time, you had a reason to look for something financially, and I don't know what happened. I'm guessing somewhere along the line, this book, becoming your own banker, showed up in your life. Help us understand a little bit. Walk us through. What was the gateway that helped you see that this was even a possibility. What. What entered you into learning about the concept originally?

Well, I don't even remember the year that it happened, but I remember listening to a podcast, and it was actually.

To do with Mary. Mary Jo. Right. And I don't know, I listened to it, and it's. Yeah. Anyway, it's like everybody else's story, right? You kind of forget about it, put it on the back burner, and then you. Yeah. A couple years later, I listened to another thing where Jason was interviewed, and it kind of spiked my interest again. And I. And I watched the video with The Nelson Nash, which doesn't really have much to do with the whole infinite banking, but more so to show how. How much of a character he was. Like, he was, he was a. Yeah, I wish I could have met the guy. Right. And I watched that and I tried to show it to my wife. She didn't have much interest in it. And I remember that was in the spring of 21, I believe. And I, I reached out in the fall of 2022 and got in touch with Roman and it. Ever since then, it's worked out good for me.

What I'm. What I'm hearing is it was not unlike a seed planted in the spring. It took a while for that seed to germinate. You heard about it on a podcast. A couple of years later, it came up again. You know, beyond that, you ended up watching the documentary film, learning about Nelson, and I appreciate you mentioning he's a character. He certainly was. I miss him to this day. And then sooner or later you said, you know what, it's time to reach out and explore this further. And that's kind of how you connected with Roman. Did I capture that correctly?

Yeah, yeah.

Amazing. It.

I mean, it. Yeah, like everybody else would have said, like, it does seem too good to be true. Right. And I had a lot of. I was very skeptical and I, I don't know about. If I had all came across rude to Roman, but I like it. If it, if it sounds too good to be true, it must be. Right. So you're, you're always drilling them with questions and. Yeah, I'm sure Roman gets it till even the day to day. Right. I'm sure everybody's trying to get it out of you, but I mean, it works. So I don't know, our family has definitely been in it, benefited from it a bunch. Yeah.

Exciting to hear that. Now, Roman, of course, you were blessed beyond good fortune to have the first chance to connect with Renee and his family. Yeah, he mentioned a lot of questions. You, you actually enjoy questions. In fact, we saw each other last week down in Florida and of course you guys had some questions for me, and I think we had a lot of fun with that also, so. So walk us through the experience from your perspective. Roman getting a chance to connect with Renee initially, some of the questions that he had. And, and you know what was interesting about his farming experience from your vantage point.

Yeah, I mean, it's been a pleasure working with Renee. Renee is a. A great guy. He was. Is very coachable and he is listening to everything I say.

Just because he had already trust in what it is and he has trust in Nelson and Nelson's message. And because I find it is very important for the client to read Nelson Nashley's book before they come to talk to a coach. This is super important. And I find if someone has read this book that Richard is holding up, that it basically removes ton of questions and gives basic understanding that we can build on. And that's been very joyful journey to serve Rene and his family. And Rene is always looking for ways to expand his system. Now not only he opened one policy or two or three, he actually has multiple policies right now and he's been using them in terms of questions. Rene has been asking questions.

I don't think they were too hard to answer. But I as a coach.

Used to, you know, give detailed answers at the beginning. But then I realized, you know, the simpler you keep it then it, the easier it actually it is to understand. So I actually tend to keep it very simple now and then maybe give an analogies from Nelson Ash's book just to better understanding and just getting hands on the system, using it. And then when you use it, you actually see the fruits, you actually see how it plays out and you want to do more. Because if you control 20% of your income, why not control 25%? Why not control 30, 35% and just expand your system? And when I shared my story with Rene, with his family, how I am using it in my family, how I'm expanding my system, that what connects with people and with, with Rene's family too.

Yeah, I, I love that. I love that. It's so good. Now Renee, you, you know, one thing that we didn't ask or mention is what type of farming is it that you focus your energy on? Because you know, you, you were, you came over to Canada originally, you'd indicated as an exchange student to work for a farmer in Alberta. And that's kind of how you found yourself here. And I guess you loved Alberta enough, you decided not to ever leave. So what is the type of farming that you focus your efforts on presently?

Well, it's kind of two different ends of the spectrum. We got our own little family outfit here where my wife and I grow fresh cut flowers throughout all the. Well from the spring till fall kind of thing. Lots of bouquets and weddings and potting out plants and bedding out plants and whatever you want. Like it's very seasonal, right? It's from spring till fall. And so it's very, it's very cyclical, right? You gotta, it's a lot of money for seed up front. And all, all of a sudden all the cash comes in and in three weeks and then there's nothing again. And then. Yeah. So it's. But it's not much different than my day to day. Like, my day to day is with a bigger farming outfit where we farm, yeah. Thousands of acres. Where I'm fortunate enough to work with a great bunch of guys that. Yeah, after a few years I've been able to farm our own stuff there too. Which. It's the same, same thing, right? It's thousands of dollars on David. One day you got a seed fertilize spray. All the expenses are upfront. Then you gotta hurry up and wait and it might be a year before you see your paycheck. Right. So in that aspect, you're. This system works great because I, I mean, yeah, we're paying interest on a. To our own system, but I'm not. It's. It doesn't disappear for eight or 12 months out to. Into thin air like, and gone. You never see it again. It's. We'll pay it back to our own system and, and do it all over again next year. Right. So it doesn't matter if you're, if, if it's, if it's a thousand bucks or it's 100,000 bucks.

It's.

It just. You throw it back every time and you do it again. Right.

So, so the, the cycle of that seasonal business operation which affects so many farmers. And you know, sometimes farmers go through different aspects of seasons. They might have some cow calf, pears or whatever. They might have, you know, different types of livestock, but they might also have land that they're farming for grains or canola or what have you. So there's, there's, there's different aspects of those seasons that, that take place. For most farming operations, you definitely experience that. And one of the challenges that is common for a lot and farming families is, is the cyclical nature of the income. You know, use a lot of money that goes out and then we're, we're hoping that we have good weather and we don't have, you know, a snow that shows up and crushes all your flowers that are budding in May or what have you, and you're in a position where you have this big, you know, harvest and in fall that allows you to have a lump sum of capital that shows up and you have to figure out how to make that last for a long period of time. That is a typical kind of struggle for a lot of farm families. And it sounds like working hand in hand with Roman as a coach, you've been able to figure out through his guidance and working together and strategizing, how do you can start to take chunks, a good chunk of that capital and start to flow it through your system, be able to use that now as, you know, policy loans and stuff to deal with day to day and big expenses and then be able to flow back in basically when you have that lump sum. Am I capturing that pretty good?

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like.

Well, there's the last. Well on. On the small scale end here with my wife. She's been buying up pallets and pallets of potting soil and flower seeds and bulbs and you name it, they're coming in left, right, center here and, and all these things are. Well, I mean it's. It's all. That's kind of the small scale of it, right. You know, it's a thousand bucks here and 2500 bucks there, and then you think it's 6000 Canadian, but it happens to be us. And now it's just. It's coming across the border and like, just stuff like that, it adds up quick, right. Even on a small personal little outfit here. And, and if you were to fund that through a line of credit, which or however you would like to fund it, it would have been cost you through the two or three months that you have to carry it right until the middle of May when our. When we finally start getting some income out of all this stuff. So as soon as the, as soon as the income starts showing up, we start paying off policy loans again. Of course, some of the stuff that we purchase in. In February for her greenhouses will not be harvested till the fall either. So it's. Yeah, same thing again. It doesn't really matter if it's a cut flower or canola plant. It's a lot of money up front for. And then you kind of cross your fingers and, and wish for the best and hopefully pay it back later. Right. Which we have been. We have been. I've been very. I don't know, the whole loan.

Well, I think it's. Everybody's got a bad experience, I think with loans. Right. It looks like it's a nasty thing that you got sitting there, right. But I mean, it's a beautiful place to. When you're. When you do run into windfalls and you can just dump it in there and it's. And at least it's sitting somewhere safe, right. And you can recycle it, which we've done recently here, and. And I was texting or emailing with Roman here. We need to get on to the next. Next policy, I believe, because we ran out of loans.

You. You've refilled all the stock. As Nelson would say. You put all the peas back on the shelf and you want to add another gondola in your. In your grocery store so you can add more inventory. Is that what you're saying?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Awesome. Now, Roman, of course, you know, you're. You're much more of a numbers guy and stuff, but it sounds like in the short time frame, you know, three years or so that Rene and his family been operating this, they've done a great job of embracing Nelson's principles and showing that they're a good steward of repaying loans, being an honest banker, and also looking at the idea of expansion so they can maintain more control. So where have you seen that his family is taking strides towards making that expansion happen? And what are some of the big purchases that you've seen them be making, you know, using their system?

Yeah, so I noticed that Rene is very open to, you know, ideas. And every time we speak, he. Or either he's texting me or he is emailing me, there's always something going on in his mind where he's always thinking about expanding. Roman, how do I expand? How do I grow my system? Roman, I have this amount of money show up and I'm out of my capacity. How do I buy more policies? And sometimes we just look at other strategies, like also protecting other risks, you know, including the critical illness and there's other disability, possible risk that we also need to look at, be very mindful of. But Rene has been sharing with me that he has been flowing a lot of policy loans through his living expenses, through his business, through his farm and buying equipment. And maybe Renee can share what. Like what you've been able to, you know, buy, purchase, and then pay back with your income later on. So, Rene, would you maybe willing to share how you've flown it through your system and what have you been able to, you know, purchase and basically taking that business away from banks?

Well, first of all, like, I have kind of done small loans to begin with for just your. To pay off your Visa card or whatever. And to kind of. That was our first policy. Loans were, whatever. Paying off a thousand dollars on your Visa even to see if it worked. Right. And then pay it back again and then do whatever.

How easy was it to apply for a loan with a company?

You know, what we just went through A month and a half worth of dealing with our commercial bank on our rental here. And it's like pulling teeth, trying to touch your own cash. Like, Jesus. It drives you nuts, right? To begin with, the going through the insurance company was you would have to go through your advisor, which I kind of felt bad for Roman, right. He'd have to be the middleman. Since then everything's been kind of updated and you just click the button and check, check and you got your cash in whatever three or five days and same thing the other way around, you, you want to repay them, you just do it off your checking account and send it back. Right. In terms of what we finance, like we've done financed three complete crop cycles with it. Two years ago we went to Denmark to visit my family for my sister's wedding.

Huge.

We had engine repairs on one of our vehicles that GM offered to finance. But I said thank you, but no thank you.

Did you ask them about their interest they would charge you?

Oh yeah.

So what was the interest?

I can't remember, but it was, it was brutal. We put a new furnace in in the rental property which they also offered to finance for us. Yeah, all sorts. The latest one was actually that's probably one of the smallest ones was our 8 year old daughter needed a new knitting machine which was 60 bucks and she didn't have it. And her piggy bank quite said we would finance it for her. So they're in town right now picking it up.

But she'll pay it back. So yeah, that's, that's been like I said to Roman beforehand.

He knows probably better than me how many thousands have been cycled through it. But it would be more than. Yeah, I would even know it is.

Multiple X of your premium, let's say that. So think about all that money that you should have borrowed from a bank possibly to flow through your business and crop and harvesting and even the vacation to Denmark that you use it for. Think about all the interest that you, you would have paid and it would have been permanent, permanently transferred away from your family. So. And that all that interest has been recaptured and now is part of your net worth and sitting in your policies as a capital.

Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. Yeah, we've, we've really enjoyed even just the simplicity of it. Right. And it's. And the fact that it. Days like this where, where everything is red when you look at any chart online and you screenshot your cash value at night and the next morning and it's. And it's not effective.

Right.

It just keeps climbing.

Yeah, yeah, 100%. And Renee may ask you. So I know that you have attended a couple events, a couple live events that we ran and the very first event we ran in Edmonton, I believe it was 2022, you attended. And so maybe speak to how helpful was it to understand at that point you already had a policy, I believe. But how helpful was it to you.

To understand better this system and willing to open more policies and expand the system. So maybe talk to us a little bit about that experience that you had at the live event and maybe to someone who's listening and thinking, should, should. Should I attend a live event? Should I be there? Even if. If I'm a client already, I have already a policy. Should I be there or is it for new prospects only?

No, it's definitely. I think it's for everybody to attend kind of like the client meetings we do.

Right.

And it's. This should almost be a. I don't know how you would enforce it, but you should show up once a year at least. Right. And if nothing else to show your face and, and say hi to your. The fellow co owners of the same insurance system. Right. Because we're all kind of members. Right. I really enjoyed that. I did the trip up to Edmonton there with a buddy of mine and he ended up getting policies through Roman and girlfriend did the same thing and yeah, so I mean he's been one of the few that I've been able to share. I've shared the system with a lot of people but man, it's like, it's like. I don't know how to describe it. It's tough to get across. You can pass the book out and you can explain what you're doing, but it's like I have very few people that, that even really believe what you're telling them. Right. And then you pass in the book and three months go by and have you read the book and if they haven't read it in three months, give it back to me because I don't. It obviously doesn't matter to you then. Right? Yeah, there'll be other people out there that need that. Need that book more than you. So. Which is frustrating. But it's more caught, right.

More caught than it is taught. What's interesting, you mentioned at the beginning of the call how you, you felt that it was too good to be true and you had those. That apprehension that I think a lot of people have and maybe that's what some of the people you've been talking to, they're Experiencing that, it's hard to make that shift sometimes, but then you. You're now on the other side of it. So you almost can't see your life without having this in your life. Is that a fair assessment?

Oh, for sure, for sure. Yeah.

So how do we get that domino to tip for. For other people? And I always think about, like, a tractor or. Or a truck that's stuck in the mud, and it's just digging ruts in the mud and it can't get out. And every once in a while it slides out. But if they don't get far enough out right away, they'll just slam right back into those ruts. And you've probably experienced that a time or two yourself on the farm. Pretty much anybody living in Alberta knows what that feeling is like, you know, especially in the wintertime. So. So that's kind of the mental ruts that I think people have in their brain, Renee. And they're stuck in that old pattern, and every once in a while they pop out. But it's really easy to slide right back into that old way of doing things. And you are able to start taking loans right away and experiencing wins very early on. And that. How would you say that that helped you lead to making almost like leapfrog adjustments in your life? By starting to embrace the concept right away.

If you ask me if. Yeah, sure. This is probably for everybody. Like, everybody's got a bank account, right? So would infinite banking not be for everybody? But I don't think everybody should be part of it because I wouldn't want to be in the same membership with everybody because I see how people manage their finances, and I wouldn't be proud of that. The way that some of our people around me are dealing with their finances and not. Not. They would rob. They would steal the peas all day long. Right. And if you can't manage that, it's probably not for you anyway. The people that I've shared it with is people that I believe would benefit from it. Right. When you've always done it a specific way, it can be tough to. To get out of that old habit. Right. I'm kind of the.

My wife knows about all our stuff, and she's. She's all for it. She believes in what we're doing. She. It's. It's not.

She's not logging in and looking at the numbers every day. Oh, no, no, no policy loans.

I'll have to, I don't know, leave her a little. I left her thing here saying if I, If I did pass away, I said, and a big lump sum come around. I said, don't listen to anybody but Roman because you'll have to be put to work somewhere else then. Yeah.

So.

Well, well, I, I think there's a lot of people listening, Renee, that can resonate with that statement. I'm glad you shared that. I know for myself I, I have that experience a great deal. And Roman, probably to your degree as well, I'm sure even a number of our advisor colleagues and, and many of the clients that we serve. You know, I really love it when I get to meet with people and we have both partners there, both spouses are in the meeting and they're really interconnected and the reality is there's always one person who's really dealing with the day to day stuff. They're in there moving money around, paying the bills and doing that kind of stuff. And there's one other person that's maybe more at the high level. They get the big picture and, and that sort of thing. And then there's some families where they actually keep their money very separate. And it's almost like a, it's almost like a silo of, you know, you might have grain in this silo and you've got, you know, something else in this one over here and they're separated. So there is a degree of that that happens. So I what I would encourage everyone who's listening in, if you're in a, a good relationship, make sure you start having those conversations. Try to find ways to bridge your money together so that you are aware of what's going on. When money conversations become a point of contention, there's probably some past based experience there and it's good to try to figure out how you can clear the air so that you can move forward positively and have powerful conversations. Now you mentioned your 8 year old daughter and the knitting machine.

That's.

I think that's amazing. You've got three children. What are the ages of your kids, Renee? And how do you start to see yourself now embracing conversations kind of at the family level so everyone's on the same page moving forward?

Oh well, there's three, two boys and a girl, five, six and eight. So my goal is for them to not even have to worry about the commercial banks really because they have sent pictures to Roman of our kids sitting with the becoming your own banker, Brooke, before they could walk. Right.

I just wanted to mention that I remember, remember that picture. Amazing how they are part of your mindset and thinking about money and then they think about their future. They will not be brainwashed like almost all Canadians are. Right.

We walk by the local branch in town here and my 6 year old says, dad, is that the gangsters that live in there? We have, I don't know, we have smaller policies on them. Those were the, my trial. Trial policies that we, that we took out to begin with. Policies on both my wife and I. And then what we talk about, try to talk about finances every day. I mean, it, it. You have to. Nelson describes it in the book too, that it's all part, it's. It's all the human conditions. Right. And, and you got to, we had to somehow find the cash to get the wheels in motion here. So you, for a couple of years, you. We kind of live, I don't know if it's cheap, but we live super efficient to begin with. Right. And, but I want, I want it so badly to get these policies up, up and running. And it's not so that last, maybe the last year that you can really just see the traction that you've caught and the steam that. It's not, not even steam yet, but it's like they're actually finally getting off the ground. Right.

Yeah.

And, and I could only, I can't even imagine if what, what it would have been like if my parents would have started something on me or if our kids and their kids and their kids will be hopefully thankful for what we started when we did. Right.

Yeah. You know, some, some people and some clients or prospects who I speak with, Renee, they share with me that they have this fear or they have this concern regarding paying policy, premium or payments for a long time. They say, oh, do I need to pay for a long time? And they look at it as an expense or something that they are putting money in and then this money is kind of going away from them. I know that you have the mentality of paying yourself first, where the deposit that you're making into the banking system, either as a premium or as additional deposit or as loan repayment, is going to essentially go into your banking system, essentially is not leaving your family, but is actually building your net worth. So maybe.

Do you want to maybe share how you overcame that? You know, understanding that this is not an expense, this is basically.

A deposit that is increasing in many times, in many, in many cases it is increasing more than just $1 put in gives you access to many dollars that you can utilize for your family.

Well, to begin with, I had this. Yeah. Like you said, you have that mindset where it's like, oh, just another bill that you gotta. How do we scrape enough together for this? But it's. As of right now, I have the next premium sitting there and I can't wait to get rid of it because it's doing nothing in my savings account. Right. So I can't wait for April 24th to come around. In fact, it might go a week earlier just to get it out of the commercial system. Right. Recreated me, the last one you created on Christine's life and Roman's. I can't remember what it was. Anyways, Roman pushed it a little bit further and. And I remember saying thank you. Because in 20 years from now, do you think it's going to be easier or harder to make that payment? You wish. You should have. You should have doubled that premium. Right? And Roman gave it an extra 10 or 15% more than I was actually comfortable with. But it. You. You make it work, right? Because when you look at it, it's not. It's a premium to your system that you can access again. It's not a bill for groceries or gas that's. That'll be gone. Right. It's a. It's a premium for your future and your kids. So you can't look at it as a. As an expense rate. In fact. Well, it, it drives me nuts when, when we got too much cash sitting around because it's. It's just sitting and doing nothing. Whether it's cash in the junk drawer or cash on your checking or your savings account. Right. It's. Yeah. I'd rather get. Get it gone for another policy. Right.

Yeah. It's not really doing nothing. It's doing nothing. I mean, if it's sitting in a bank, it's doing nothing for you. But it is.

That's right.

Definitely working for someone who is not you. Right?

It's doing something for someone. Yeah.

I mean, yeah, it's, it's. It's not. Yeah. Not working for me. And it.

You.

Everybody needs their. You need your living expenses, right. You can't be sitting on $5 in your account. But I try to kind of keep our accounts at a minimum and then keep the majority of our cash in our system. And we. And. And when big expenses shows up like they have been the last five weeks here, then you take your policy loan and. And then it's actually. It's gone again. Right.

I like your analogy about the thinking about your premium and when it will be easier to do it 20 years from now, but if you don't have enough of it, you won't, you won't Be able to. Makes me think of your greenhouse and the. And the flowers. You know, if you guys had the physical space and you can add another greenhouse, but you had to put the money in to go and get the greenhouse, build the spot, make the location. You have to order more dirt, more potting soil, more seeds. That seems like an expense when you say it like that. But you would do that all day long because you guys know what harvest looks like. You know what you can sell through on that extra greenhouse. If you added a whole other greenhouse, you could take your total revenue and you could ratchet it up like this, couldn't you? And so the same thinking about why a farmer might want another field, why they want to buy. Buy more cattle, why you might want to have another greenhouse is the same idea why you might want to increase the capital that you can deploy into an insurance policy structured the way that Roman has done it for you.

Yeah. And the important part of it is that we don't know. So. So for the farmer, it may be relatively easy if the farmer has capital to buy another, you know, piece of land and buy another, you know, herd of cattle and. And just expand the farming operations. However, for the insurance business, if you are in insurance and banking business, you may want to expand in the future, let's say 10 or 20, 15, 20 years from now, even five years from now. There's no guarantee that you will be insurable in the future. So it is super important to talk to your coach who will structure it for you, and think about expanding in the future and then planning for that. Planning should be active planning, not just passive hope that this will happen. Maybe I will qualify for insurance. No, you have to be confident that you have capacity to plan for.

What if. What if the health is not as great as it is today? We're not getting younger every day. We're getting older every day. So we have to kind of plan for future expansion. Working, you know, with your coach and building that capacity of having enough insurance in place so that maybe you can convert, maybe you can plan in other things as well and cover other risks. Well, that's important.

We're talking a lot about, of course, farmers here, and I got to make a plug for Dan Allen, amazing member of our team. Dan Allen has a book that we're launching here right away called growing your own capital, Control how you finance the operation, create the ultimate line of credit, and keep the farm in the family. That book was inspired by something that Nelson said. He said you have to be growing your own cow chow and that's really where we kind of took the title from something that Nelson had indicated in one of ours, one of his during the time that we were recording. The documentary film is actually one of the, the clips that we captured from Nelson. Now Renee Roman asked you a great question about attending the live event and you gave us a great indication as to why that was so valuable for you. But we also have ongoing education. We have regular webinars and then we have of course our podcast which we're doing here today and we have ongoing education that way. But then we also do live events just for clients. We have our quarterly group coaching sessions. We actually at the time of this recording, we're doing one tomorrow. So I'm curious if you've attended those. And what would you say to someone who's maybe already practicing this or they're thinking about, you know, getting started and, and they want to know what resources are available to them if they were to go ahead and proceed. What could you share about that?

Well, I try to listen in on the, on the quarterly sessions that you guys put on and there's always one little thing that you haven't thought about that you'll pick up out of a two hour Saturday morning meeting. Right. And of course you can't, you can't make every, every meeting and every get together. But I, yeah, like I said earlier, I think it should be mandatory. The guys should show up, right. And even the live events, I went.

To.

The one in this, in, in Calgary here this fall. It's nice now that you can finally meet up with the people and, and in between the coffee chatter, right. And meeting meeting people like minded folks that, and you know, everybody there are doing what you're doing, right. In one form or another. So yeah, I, I really enjoy it.

Essentially they are all co owners of the business that you are.

Yeah, yeah.

So it's, it's great to have this relationship and networking with people who do what you do, the same thing. And so, and then at the end of the day we're all paying.

Policy loans back, we're paying interest back to the life insurance company and it benefits everyone, not just me, not just yourself, Renee, not just Richard, but everyone is benefiting because every dollar we pay as a policy loan repayment goes into the PAR account and that creates profitability for the life insurance company and life insurance company will have more money even to distribute a dividend at the end of the year. So that's amazing.

And what is a dividend?

Buy more, more of that great insurance yeah, yeah, Love that. Now, Renee, being from Denmark, you know, I'm not sure, maybe share with us how many years you've been in Canada. And I'm just curious. I, I've never been to Denmark myself. I'd love to go one day, but, you know, what would you say is, from your vantage point, some of the things that, you know, maybe you learned or, or thought about in your financial world growing up in another country versus what you see happening for a lot of Canadians? You know, obviously you're around southern Alberta and farming communities, but what would you say? Is there any differences between, you know, Denmark versus in Canada that you've noticed and observed? And what advice would you provide for someone who's a Canadian today that says or, or someone from the United States about implementing this concept in their life?

I've been here since 2011 and, and I got my citizenship a couple years ago. I mean, we're, we're living, in my eyes, very similar. Like, everybody always thinks of the Scandinavian countries as heaven on earth, but, I mean, we can point fingers no matter where you live at. Right. I think at the end of the day, we all run out of financing. Right. In fact, when I mentioned what we were doing to my parents, I don't even think it's, it's not a, it's not even possible to do in, in Denmark, as far as I can see and hear. It used to be a thing back in the day. I was talking to my uncle about it, but no longer. So I, I, well, Roman, you might know better than me, you can do it in Canada, the U.S. and what else. Is it possible to do that and, like, run the system like this?

Yeah, definitely. So I don't really know that it can be done somewhere in Europe or United Kingdom or Australia. I've noticed there are some companies that kind of do infinite banking, for example, in Australia, but I don't know how, like, which companies they're using, and their system may be a little bit different. What I was going to say that when we live in a country, there's a saying that the green is always sorry. The grass is always greener on the other side. Right. So you compare how you live, how the other countries live, and it always seems like it's better somewhere else is better than it's here. But the key is if you have access to liquid capital and if you can flow your system and recapture all the interest that you have been losing before that it doesn't really matter where you live. What matters is how you go about financing the things you purchase in life, how you go about financing kids, education, about your mortgage, about the, you know, payments you're making. If you're making payments to your system you own and control, then it doesn't really matter where you live. I mean, there may be some differences here and there in tax code and, you know, rules and regulations and insurance companies. But I mean, you can do infinite banking with other tools, right? Even with Shoebox. Right. You can use it as a tool, but I mean, if you're paying back with interest, you're kind of doing the same thing, it's just a different tool which may not be as effective as we have here in Canada.

Yeah, well said, Roman. I would agree with you. And you know, in the uk I believe they have something called with profits insurance. You know, and again, I can't say that I have done all the research on that, but from what I can venture to guess, it seems like the most similar in alignment to what a typical whole life insurance contract would look like, you know, in other nations. Again, it's, it varies policy design and structure. There's so many different terminologies that we use here. When you throw different languages in the mix, you know, things can get discombobulated very quickly. You know, Nelson Nash, he would say, you know, he probably should have named it concept of banking that is infinite instead of the infinite banking concept. Because if you, if you order hot water in Mexico, you order agua caliente water hot, not hot water. And he said the way that things are described by their main elements varies by country. And so he kind of was a bit of a steward on things when it came to language that way. But the key elements that Roman identified also make sense. The core elements that Nelson talked about, the mindset, the human behaviors, if anyone can master those human behaviors and they can do it with, again, even if it was just a basic bank account, it may not provide the same level of efficiency, but it will provide financial advantage because the natural tendency of the human being in their day to day spending will allow them more control over that spending and it'll also start to make it so that money that would have normally disappeared, that we weren't tracking, you get to retain more of it because you're being more diligent and more effective. So the result is you save more capital through changing the behavior of what you're doing. Then if we can flow some of that capital through a well designed insurance contract, we can optimize for long term efficiency even further. And that's really the core elements yeah.

And not just changing the behavior, but also controlling the environment of how you operate and how your money is flowing. So everyone is going through the life with financial headwind, where if you control the environment, as Nelson described in the book, you can actually create a financial tailwind. And that's what Rene has been able to implement so far and has been enjoying, where this financial tailwind, no matter what, pushes you forward. If you have a good year, perfect. If you have a bad year, then it's still growing and compounding every single day and pushes you forward no matter what. So that's. That's key.

You know, Renee, you. You kind of lit up a number of times to your conversation when you. You recognize the difference between, you know, going through a. A refinancing situation on your rental property, dealing with the traditional bank, and. And just the level of control that you have over your life today. Now, how important would you say it is for you, you know, your wife and your kids? Just. Just the knowledge that you have, A, the family protection, but B, the level of control over how you're able to determine your own destiny. Now, given what you've implemented with Roman, it's.

It's super important. I agree. Like I was trying to say earlier, we were like. It's like the stack of documents you're. You're having to provide to. To access your own original capital that you put into a place. It's a pain in the rear, to say the least. Right. An opportunity comes around. Last fall, a piece of equipment come up. Buddy needed the cash more than he needed the equipment, and you take a policy loan, have it in your bank account, write a check, run it up there, and everybody's happy. Right.

What would you have to do if you didn't have access to policy loans at that point, Renee? We'll probably take a loan or probably.

Through a line of credit, I would imagine. Yeah, we would have done that. Then you're paying. I always like saying, like, I like buying my snowball in July. Right. So this was an irrigation pump in the fall, which is not really. And nothing. Nobody needs it. Right. So I'll take anything up at 50 off, put it in the shed and sell it eight months later or use it for that. I don't.

I don't.

Anyway, so that's. I never really understood when Nelson said that cash is available, the opportunity will show up or some. Something along those lines. Right. And until you experience it, it just. Yeah. And I'm sure that's. That's probably just one. Like, I'm sure there'll be many of those situations coming in the future, right, when, when cash is available.

And yeah, people normally don't, don't sell snowmobiles in June, right? They probably sell them like in November, December where the price, the people are getting interested in stuff like that. So you know, but someone who really needs cash, they may actually.

Going to buy one in June. I mean if someone is, sorry, someone who wants to get a good deal, not cash, but who wants to get a good deal, you're probably looking in June or July, right? So right around where someone who needs cash will sell and then you can get a really good discount on the.

Piece of asset that has helped us out a bunch.

Having access to liquid cash is key. Would you agree, Rene?

Oh, it's huge. And it's never going to get old, right? There's always going to be the next whatever, whether it's braces or the transmission or the roofs or what, like you name it, right? There's, there's always the next big ticket item just around the corner. But whether it's, it's general maintenance or an actual opportunity on a piece of land or a rental property or whatever, the next thing will be just, just the fact that you, and you don't have to be chasing high rates of return.

Or I don't have to anyway, I'm perfectly happy with.

Keeping a lot of our powder dry. And then when opportunity, good opportunities do show up and, and, and, and it's something that I know anything about, like Nelson, I always said, right, Something you know a great deal about and, and you know what it's worth pounds on it.

It's time to buy when everything is on sale like stock market and bitcoin is right now, right. So you have access to cash.

See, and I don't, I don't really know much about Bitcoin, so I can't tell you what, what's cheap and what's, what's expensive.

But yeah, I'm just saying that the markets are, are, it's a, it's a bear market right now. So I mean if someone is looking to buy stocks at a good deal today, maybe a good, good time to do that. But the key is having access to liquid cash on demand and without hassle, without answering stupid questions, credit score and stuff like that.

So.

Yeah, good point. Thank you, Renee.

Well, Renee, we appreciate you taking the time to be with us here on the podcast. Thank you so much for sharing your story. Thank you for embracing the concept and being a good steward and, and also Doing your best to share the concept with other people that you love and care about. And so, you know, our final question for you here is while you may not think of yourself as a hero, of course you're, you know, between you and your wife with your flower business, what you guys are doing there, of course you're showing up to be heroes for a lot of weddings and bouquets that are getting those flowers among a number of other things. And you're doing a great job raising three children to understand the importance of money and legacy and keeping the money in the family. So our question for you is, who would you most wish to be a hero to?

My kids, of course. And yeah.

Future.

Future generations, hopefully. I don't know.

Yeah.

Like I said earlier, I wish something. Well, we all wish we would have started sooner, right. But it. All it takes is for one guy to do it at least. And maybe in 100 years people will say that at least. Great, great Nielsen did it. Right. That's why I want to be a hero, too.

Great grandfather Rene did it for us. And then we still use the system up to this point.

I sure hope so. I, I've kind of, I'm trying to pound it in in my kids head and I hope they can do the same. And it's not. And I, and I kind of, and I often say to them, it's, it's not yours, but it'll be your turn.

Yeah.

And right now it's not mine, but it's my turn to look after it. Right. And one day it'll be your turn.

Great stewardship mindset, Rene. I love it. Thank you for being with us here again today. Roman, thanks for joining in and sharing a little bit about your great relationship with Brene that you've created. For those of you turning in, of course, on YouTube, you'll see a magical little video that just popped up that says, oh, my God, this is a great video. You should click on it next and watch it as well. So go ahead and do that. There's no such thing as having arrived in knowledge. And thanks again for tuning in to wealth on Main street and we look forward to catching you on next week's episode.