273: Real-Life Application of Infinite Banking to Regain Financial Control with Dr. Richard Vuksinic

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What is being a naturopathic doctor and the infinite banking concept have in common? Well, we're going to find out. Today we're joined by Richard Vuxenic. Of course, him and his wife Christina, they've been running a naturopathic practice in London, Ontario for the last 15 years. Helping serve the people, of course, and something that's been helping to serve them has been the infinite banking concept. So excited to have this conversation today, Richard. You know, we had a meeting not that long ago and we tossed around some of the wonderful things you and your wife have been able to do since you've embraced this concept. So welcome to the show. Happy to have you on. And where would we like to begin? Why don't we start with how the infinite banking concept came across your desk in the first place?

Yeah. Well, first off, thanks for having me excited to be here. I often tune in and learn from this podcast because it's a. We're always growing and learning as infinite bankers. And I hope that I can contribute something to some of your listeners today that makes a light bulb go off and how they can use this tool in, you know, their own unique way. The way I came into infinite banking was through my brother who tuned into to the concept probably about eight years ago or so. And like what we see, many of us who start to really understand this process and how it can be such a life shifting tool. We want to share it with the people that we love and that we care for. So my brother was like, hey, you got to check this out.

You know, I took one glance, my radar went off. I said, okay, I have to learn more, and then sat down with you for a series of meetings. And you really took your time and a lot of patience to hold my hand through, you know, that mental shift that has to happen before you pull the trigger. And so that in and of itself was a bit of a process that took a couple of months for me to, to kind of get it and, and to take that plunge. I think we're in our eighth year now with that first policy that we started through my personal policy. Yeah, about eight years ago. And so here we are eight years later, three more policies under the belt since then and really starting to feel the traction of that and sort of the ecosystem of that and how that really is starting to. Starting to enhance each other.

Yeah, I love that. And I, you know, it's interesting you bringing that up. I have some fond memories of some of our early conversations, of course, and, you know, you know, getting into some of the weeds, as it were, the details and wanting to know a lot of the specifics. And, and so it's kind of interesting reflecting back on that time to where you are today using the concept you've, you know, policy loans, the familiarity, taking capital out, replenishing loans through loan repayments, the simplicity of that, funding premiums. I mean, there's a. There's a number of elements there that are happening sometimes in tandem, sometimes at different points in the year that you get control over. And if you were to reflect back, you know, from where you are today, the discussions you and your wife get to have, embracing this, These conversations a little bit with your. With your daughters and stuff, and then thinking back to eight years ago when you were getting started on the questions you had, what. What's some of the difference there? Having the lived experience and what you thought was important in the beginning to what you think is important today?

Yeah, that's a great question. I think at the beginning there was some trepidation of like, where am I going to come up with this money? So there was like a. A limiting belief already about flow and growth and capital and how it can work and should work. So it was more static. So it's like, oh, I'm just, okay, I'm just gonna pack the money in here. And then like, if I want to buy a car or something, I'll buy a car and I don't have to pay interest. That really kind of helped me understand that, because I know I'm going to buy a couple cars. So it was really very simple. I'm like, maybe I'll have this one policy. So my kids are, you know, taken care of, you know, when I pass away, and maybe I'll have a bit of a retirement fund that I didn't, you know, blow on seeds for my garden or whatever over the years. So it was quite limited, to be frank. It was just like, it just felt something safe, conservative, a good place to put my money, and just wanted to be out of the banking system. So there was that, like, that aspect of withdrawing those components of my money from the bank and the vulnerability there. So those were the main pieces that attracted me to it and allowed me to kind of take that step. And it was at a Time where I was, you know, we were trying to build a house, you know, I was shutting down one clinic, and I'm like, I don't know where this cash is going to come from. And the beautiful thing about it is that it's like almost every year since then, it's. It's just been there and it's come from different sources, and now it's starting to come from within the system itself, which is the big difference, too. So there's a bit of like, you know, to answer the question of where we're at now, now we're starting to feel a little bit more of the dynamism of it, the potential for the system to start feeding in itself and playing off of itself and sort of really supercharging itself. And now it's like, okay, how can I move money around? How can I minimize tax burden? You know, how can I use this strategically to invest and amplify my wealth and then bring it back into the system? So now it's like more of like a growth and it's more alive than just this, like, I'm going to squirrel this stuff away over here and look at it. And when I'm 80 kind of thing now, it's, it's very much a part of how my brain works when we have, you know, when we're. We're talking about cash flow and finances in general. And now it's about trying to convey that to my kids, right, without like, over grinding it in them so that they're resistant to the concept, which is I'm, you know, borderline sometimes. But, yeah, it's much more alive and more dynamic at this stage, for sure.

I love that. And, and I, I can see that from the conversations we've had. And, and one of the things that I, you know, from my perspective, I would share is that, you know, we've gone from maybe having a lot more consistent meetings, a lot more, you know, questions and revisiting things. There's.

There's.

Anything that you do that's new requires practice, and a lot of times there's repetition that we do. You know, when we first got started, Richard, we didn't have all the. We didn't have a podcast, we didn't have videos and all these other levels of access. You to kind of go and seek some of your own education at a time that's convenient for you, you know, fighting time zones and booking meetings and so on. And so I'm curious, you know, we think about the repetition. The thing is, such, even such a Thing as taking a couple of policy loans, making some loan repayments, going through that process and. And some of the things you've purchased with your system as far as taking a policy loan, paying for the item, creating some form of repayment method around that works for you and your family. What are some examples of that that you can think of that have been. It doesn't have to be a big ticket, but just control oriented where you felt, you know what, the fact I was able to do this really connects with me because of being in the driver's seat of my financial life.

Yeah, well, one easy example. So it might be helpful just to kind of give an impression of, you know, where we have our policies and how that might tie in. Pardon me, to the naturopathic thing. So we have a naturopathic professional corporation where my wife has a policy on her life there. And then the first policy that we have been referring to, I purchased eight years ago personally. So that's not under the corporation. And then my two children each have their own policies for the. I think we're going into our fourth year now. So there's those four policies. So under my personal policy, I've been able to. You know, we have a small homestead here on the north shore of Lake Erie. I grow herbs. I. I'm moving mulch and compost around. And I needed a pickup truck and I need to plow my driveway. And I didn't want to spend, you know, 150k on a new pickup truck. I just needed a beater. So I was able to take out, you know, that few thousand bucks during COVID when everything was locked down and I couldn't find a vehicle anywhere. And my mechanic found me one. So I was able to purchase this truck and pay it off within no time. And so now I've got this wonderful tool that has really enhanced my capacity to do the work on the land that I want to do. And then recently, as recently as last year, we flipped the car that we had for about. We didn't flip it as in terms of an accident. We got rid of it.

Good, good quantifying statement. Thank you.

Yeah, Yeah. I want to shock my mom, who might be listening. So you never told me that. So we sold the. That we had, you know, whatever, certain kilometers on it. And I said, I'm just going to get another used car through my mechanic, who I learned to trust. Now he can find me a decent car and bought another sort of beater that's going to last me three or four years and was able to pay that off within a few months. And so now we've got these two vehicles. You know, they're not my dream vehicles, but they're very serviceable. And then we have the wife's car, which is the nice car.

Your household runs like mine does. I. Yeah.

Oh, you know, we're, we're wise. So a good example here is, okay, well, we've got this car that, this new car that we purchased again with another policy loan. So now we've got three vehicles, two of which are paid off, third one which is we're making monthly payments on as though we were paying Ford Canada, but we're not paying for Canada, which is way better obviously. But because they are used vehicles and it's like, oh, the all wheel drive shaft just bearing just went. And that's going to be 500 bucks. Right. Okay. So I got to make that payment. Okay. This month it's a bit tight. I don't have to put that payment towards the new car. I put that money towards fixing the old car. A little bit of breathing room. Right. So it's to me, it's those pieces that really just allow you to exhale, say, okay, I'm still sticking to my plan. Puts me out a month, whatever. There's some interest implications to that. But ultimately my month to month bills aren't going to change when I have that type of liability. So I can feel more confident taking the liability of a used vehicle because of that sort of situation. So that's one sort of example.

So. So payment control around the dynamics of your life is something that really connects and resonates with you for sure.

Yes. Another example could be extracting money from the policy, my personal policy again to invest in the market and to amplify that. And now that some of those, those investments are paying off as capital gains, I can drip that into my income but not have to pay myself through my corporation. And so now I have more control over what's happening in terms of my overall income and sort of thresholds there too, which is obviously beneficial. Right?

Yeah. So you know, to expand on that, the, the knowledge base that, you know, you need a certain amount of money coming in every month or every year to service the things that you need, plant your garden, have a, have a decent life, fuel in the vehicle, etc. Etc. And meanwhile, you know, now that you have income, income happening from a different source, investment related income, capital gains, etc, you've, you've taken some courses, you've put the effort in, you started small, you've Built it up to something where you know what you're doing, you're self managing all that in an effective way. The source of funding to create these investments has come from a policy. So it's a control mechanism. You choose when and how you're paying it back. Meanwhile, if you're creating, let's just say $10,000 of income on this endeavor, that's 10,000 you don't need to take out of your corporation now, which means you can apply that to some other future work in that entity. So it's allowing you that balancing act of control now on how you choose to take a tax dollar out of a corporate entity. And I think that's really the empowering force that you're talking about. Am I on track there?

Yeah, for sure. So that's where that now we have the interplay of the personal and the corporate policies. And I know when we first discussed this when we were getting Christina's policy, I was okay, well do we put it under her personally or what are the benefits? And.

You know, the things that are limitations of putting in the corporation. And ultimately we decided that, you know, it makes good sense to do that in the corporation and so now we can just use that. Now we're using that policy in a completely different way than the one that I have personally. So we're using it to kind of piggyback off that whole profit first model, which maybe some of your listeners are familiar with. It's just a way of sort of structuring your income and sort of delineating the percentages of where you want to put it in terms of like operating costs, owner's compensation, taxes, and what's the other one? Owner's comp. Profit. The profit, the fun one. Right. So you're just, you're, you're allocating it that way. And I used to have these five different accounts in our corporate bank account and every month certain percentage, like 15% of our income, our gross income would go into that tax account. Then that, you know, 2 to 3% profit would go into the profit account, etcetera, etcetera. And then we got the policy said, oh, okay, well now I'm just going to keep track of those in my spreadsheets. I love my spreadsheets, as you know. And now I'm just going to flow all of that because I'm parking that money in those accounts. I'm parking it for the taxes, but it's just sitting in a savings account. Right. About 15% every month adds up fast. Right. And it disappears Fast too, at this time of year.

So we are recording this at tax times.

Yeah. So here we go. So there's been a beautiful tool in the sense that every month I'm putting all of that profit first, percentage, that tax percentage into the policy because I have outstanding loans on the policy. Because we drove the first three years of that policy from some loans that we received that had some really favorable.

Payback sort of stipulations. So we use that to drive the first two or three years of our policy, pay that loan back. Now we have that space in our policy. And so that's another mindset shift for me. It's like, oh, it's, it's spaced like put somewhere to put money that's coming in. Not a scarcity. Where did it go? I have to pay it back now it's somewhere I can put stuff, which feels different too.

It's like an empty shelf on, on in your grocery store that you just want to restock it when you get a chance.

Yeah, yeah. And there's like a different kind of fun around that for my brain anyway. But that gives us a space. Now I can flow all that money through on a monthly basis, corporately speaking. And that's all just. And then I got to pay the taxes, take out the loan, pay the taxes and start all over again. And so. And then all that interest and all that stuff that's. That's on the corporate. The corporation takes that quote, unquote hit.

So that's a big way that we're using. That's different than.

Than my personal policy. So I mean, there's, there's way more interaction happening on the corporate one where, you know, I've taken out. I don't remember what number it was, but it was several. Several loans and paybacks within that. Right. A few dozen or something. As opposed to.

What are some examples other than, you know, say, paying for, you know, annual tax bill as an example. What are some of the things that you've decided it made sense to. To use or leverage a policy in the business structure? Was there from some equipment, materials, POS system? Like what's an example of something that you decided that, hey, this is a good use. We've got this capital here. Let's implement with what we've been setting aside in the machine to help create more value in the, in the business machine?

Yeah, simple things really, like equipment. Like we needed a new treatment table. Right. So, okay, we'll just get what we want and we'll pay it back slowly. Right. So we didn't have to think of what we wanted and then save to get it and all that. We could just like, oh, it's time, you know, we've been dilly dallying. It's time to get that new table. We could take that loan out, it's in the bank account in a couple of days and we pull the trigger and way we go. So that's an example. Or, you know, we just have to buy a new computer that we're going to have to fund. So those are really simple examples. But it, you know, those things are more significant investments when you start to add them up. Right.

The impact on your time, the value perception for customer service, the people that you serve that come to see you, that that's where you see it. That that's an intangible. We would say it's something that's off the page. You know, the spreadsheet. You can see a number on a spreadsheet. You can create a formula to calculate. But how do you apply a dollar value to the streamlined impact of a new computer that's not frustrating you and the tech support calls and the bog down and, and that impact on your life and operating your business, that's an intangible that doesn't show up on a spreadsheet.

Totally. Yeah. And to have that flexibility and to know you're recapturing all of that on some level, from the interest perspective, it just feels better because it is better. And sort of another way that this is helpful is how we can look forward. So if I've got this personal side where I've drawn out of my policy, made some investments that I'm now dripping into my personal income, I'm not taking out as much from the corporation. So that's now sitting there. So it's like, okay, now that's one of the limitations of having the policy in the corporation is like, essentially you're going to have to use the money towards the corporate needs, not towards my personal needs. Right. But now we can think ahead of like, okay, can we start thinking about building that office space on our property to start to work from our land closer to nature, closer to the gardens. Essentially, what the ultimate goal has been for us since the day we broke ground here, way before we broke ground on this property, was to work closer to home on the land and to. To offer that aspect of being closer to nature, working with the herbs in a different way, providing a completely different experience for our patients and a completely different experience for ourselves and how we practice. Now we can start thinking about those things more tangibly and say, okay, here's the numbers. We know exactly what's going on. We know what our budget is. We can pull the trigger here, you know, and feel confident that we don't have to have a bunch of meetings with the bank about getting the money and telling them, oh, you know, we're naturopathic doctors. You're what? And you're doing what? And like, well, maybe we'll give you some money, but not as much as you'd like.

You grow mushrooms on your land.

Yeah. Oh, that doesn't sound good. Right, so none of that. Right. So we can now. We can now we have this energy to just dream and act and not be bogged down in the gravel to the bank situation.

And what's the impact on that? From a conversation point with, you know, with Christina, you know, you've got wife slash business partner, but you guys both have a dream and a vision of something that you want, that you're. That you're connected with the knowledge that this is supporting you moving forward in that direction. How does that show up in, like, conversations that you guys have now?

It's interesting. I mean, we don't talk about it all the time. We have. There's certain moments where, you know, the energy is right. Kids are quiet, or they're at grandma's or whatever, or we're out for dinner.

They're always quieter when they're at grandma's. I. Sure, yeah.

Because they're not here. I love my children, of course, but to have that capacity and time to connect, it just bubbles up and it becomes just another layer of our relationship, of our growth together. It is part of our ecosystem. Like, ecosystem is a word I like to use with this infinite banking piece, because you're starting to see how these things play off of each other and how different systems feed each other. And it's a part of our relational ecosystem. We have our children together and we work as parents together, and we explore that together. And then as a husband and wife, we explore that together. And how our relationships developing and from the business perspective, and they all feel like we're. They're. They're different flavors, but it's all the same. It's us, it's our dynamic, and it's just another layer that has really been able to function, to enhance our capacity to be creative, to. To have dialogue, to connect, to be excited about the future and to be grateful for what's happening in the present. And a lot of that comes from, I guess, the word, the empowerment. Of, you know, having more of that control and having that vision and know and having a plan. Right. Allows you to have these conversations that aren't just pie in the sky or total scarcity vibe or whatnot. Right. They're just realistic conversations you can get excited about.

Yeah, I love that. And what's interesting, you talk about again how you've made strides on the kind of personal investment income creation model and that's now creating an additional space for you for making corporate decisions. There's more capital available in the corporation to do some of these things. You've been talking about ever since the first time we met. You were in the process of getting the plans done, acquiring that land, getting your home built like that was kind of when I entered the picture and I got to experience from the ground up, literally the construction process of your new home. And, and this vision, this dream that you guys had way back when and now to hear that, this materialization and so you think about your business has, has grown since then as well and the structure of it. We went from your wife having to spend more time looking after the kids, the kids are a bit older, so she has more time to work kind of in the practice as well. So that has an impact. And now you're, you're driving back and forth, you got a 40, 45 minute drive back and forth to, to get to your current office. Moving that and changing that, bringing onto your land. There's all the reasons you already identified as to why it's an advantage for how you feel you can serve your clientele best. Has to do with the natural aspect of nature, the different components around having a space that's not in the busy hubbub of a city where you got to stop at every red light and all these things that create a little bit of mental chaos for people when they're trying to, you know, work towards healing. Right. I, I think that's a big component of the plan. So now you already have some numbers on what it's going to take to build a structure for having, having a space that you can conduct business at home. There might be a little bit of time lag on getting an operational, but we've seen that time lag go from out here to much closer time frame. What I'm really curious about, if you think about, okay, hey, there's, there's multiple times a week, I don't have to drive into the city anymore. I get all that time back. You're looking at an hour and a half, almost two hours a day depending on traffic congestion for each person driving in. Now, you and your wife usually don't go in at the same day, but regardless, you know, I think you and I did some math on this one day along. It's, you're spending a certain amount of time between the two of you just on the road and in traffic going to and from your location. Obviously you have to go to town and pick up groceries and things of that nature, but fundamentally you're, you're spending a, a considerable amount of time. And if we looked at over a year, it was days and days and days of activity just on the road. Now granted, I don't mind you being on the road because you have to listen to our podcast. So there's one check mark for me on that. But, but I'm much more interested in your long term happiness and the value that you can create on the land. So, so we have not only reduced costs on gas and fuel and wear and tear and maintenance on the vehicles, we have a drastic increase on time that you can serve more patients and spend more quality time with your family. So there's, there's a whole host of benefits here. Now those are some things we can plot mathematically on, on a sheet of paper. We can look at a time advantage, the time leverage. We can look at the reduction of cost on say, fuel and maintenance and that sort of thing. We can plot that. And so once you get this structure built, how is your life, your business, your general happiness as a family going to change, do you think?

Yeah, I mean, that's the exciting part, right? Because that time is tied up and it is in, it's in moving around and it's so, it's not enriching really. I mean, yeah, listening to podcasts, sure, but all of that time, one, it, it's going to take out some of the rigidity of structure that kind of keeps you a little more like that. Right. So it's like, it's gonna be more sense of flow. It's going to be more time and more time to work in rhythm with the land, which asks a lot if you want to work with it in a certain way. So to be available that way. It's like that with children too. So more potential to be in that, that quote unquote flow state as opposed to right now. It's a lot of, okay, I've got my permaculture, farmer, homesteader, father hat on.

Okay.

Now a lot of labels on that hat.

Yeah, right. It's a big hat, the sombrero. And then, okay, My professional naturopathic doctor going to the city to work hat and it's, it's been a great balance, been beautiful. But there is a gear shifting that happens there and there is energy that is used in that gear shift. So the less like grinding of gears, I mean, I don't even know that I can tell you what that's going to be like until I feel it and experience it. But I can, I can taste what that'll be like and that's what's the driving force around that. I think it's kind of just that, knowing that, yeah, that's what we're aiming to do.

You make a lease payment at your location that you have and so you're going to have a cost of building, you're going to have capital outlay for building, you're able to do some of that work yourself and you've got contacts and people in the area and you already priced out some of the structure and you're going to have to make a replenish payment. You're going have to restock your shelves on that policy. You take policy loans, you're going to do like a draw construction loan, not unlike what David Stearns of the Nelson Ash Institute has done when he built his house, he tore down Nelson's house and rebuilt it and they took every two weeks he took a policy loan to pay the builder like a draw mortgage. So they never gave up control of that property that they still own today. I've been there, it's a beautiful home. So in the same process you're going to go about doing that and meanwhile you will make a payment to that, to that, you know, replace that. So maybe you'll do it over a 10 year period, whatever the time frame is you want to do. But part of the payment is going to come from your lease payment where you were already spending money to someone else, someone else who owns a building that isn't you and you're just going to be able to redirect that and then control the outcome of how much of that payment you want to apply to that policy line.

Yeah, and so there isn't that. And you have that flexibility. If you miss a payment, it's not the end of the world. You're not getting kicked out on the street. Not that I intend to, but there's a peace of mind to that. But there's other aspects here to think about. You know, with my personal policy being at, you know, eight years in at a certain level, and then the timing of our HELOC Fixed five year fixed rate coming up in a year and a half or whatever it's going to be, or whatever it is. And okay, well we might just be able to go, okay, policy, pay off HELOC or a big chunk of it. Now we're putting that monthly payment back into the policy. Now we've got this line of credit that's sitting there and we can, you know, consider that good old fashioned Smith maneuver to fund the corporate build. Right. And so then there's that whole piece of the interest kind of being written off and so having that aspect come into play if we wanted to go that route. Or we could just do it from our policy directly or you know, and sitting with our accountant saying, well, what makes the most sense, what makes us least vulnerable, what's you know, limits and.

Benefits, how much tracking am I going to do, how much paperwork, etc. Etc.

Yes, all that stuff.

You have a balancing act. And so the key word I heard is, is flexibility, is, is options.

The importance of having those options available versus having to be in a restricted environment where you, you have quite limited choice. Sometimes there's a degree to which too much choice can be, be a detriment to some individuals, not everyone, but to some degree, you know, it's, it's like it's almost impossible to make a decision when you have too many options. Like where are we going to go eat dinner tonight and go out for dinner? Well, we could go here, here and here. Well, as you say, hey, here's three places we should go eat dinner. Then it's a lot easier for someone to choose which of the three places. There's a kind of difference there. You ask your kids what do you want for breakfast? Versus hey, here's three things you can have for breakfast. You'll probably get an answer right away. I think people can understand that like sometimes too much choice can be overwhelming. But ultimately the fact that you have the choice is the key. You're the one that gets to narrow the options and have that patriarch type decision discussion making process with everyone involved. Your business partner, your wife, the kids, depending on what you're doing. And I think that's really, really tremendously powerful. And it can't be understated to the degree that that's showing up in your life.

Oh, it translates into, yeah, just how you can conduct yourself in how you relate to other aspects of your life. Right. When you have that. Because that demands something from you. It demands from you to be aware, self aware, to evaluate, to be creative, to take risks, measured Ones or whatever your appetite for that is, but it demands something of responsibility.

And self. That's. Yeah, like that. So that self reliance piece, if there's. I can't think of a better word. And so with that, you're developing that skill and that role within the context of infinite banking. But that translates to, that could translate to anything, translate to how you're parenting, translate to how you're interacting with your property, you know, in terms of managing it, other relationships. So it's almost like a confidence or a training of your nervous system to kind of embody something that's going to bleed into all the things you do because you have that you have some freedom. You're not like, oh, and coming from this like fear, restrictive place and, and that, you know, the impact that can have that we can't even, you know, there's no spreadsheet for that.

I haven't found it yet.

Anyway, you're looking. You'll let me know when you come.

Across one with AI. Who knows, maybe there'll be one coming out soon.

I'll have an appointment booking in my calendar that shows up that says I found the spread, the spreadsheet.

Well, what I really love, Richard, about what you identified, I really think you've encapsulated to a degree that I don't think maybe anyone else we've had on our show has done.

Your description of what you just identified is the infinite in the infinite banking.

Right. Okay.

The way that you identify these, these various components and the, the feeling, the connection of what it does for you, the nervous system. I love how you identified, you know, training of the nervous system, the component of responsibility that is there and that, that's why we spend time on education. That's why a person needs that education first rather than just, oh, give me a policy and you know, see you later. There's no value in that. The value is in the learning and then the doing because the doing creates more learning and then you have more learning, which creates a new type of doing and then the new type of doing creates more learning. That's the loop that we go through as human beings in most areas of our life. It's just that a lot of people aren't really taking the time to do that financially. And this creates a tremendous opportunity for you to do that financially because, you know, I don't know about you, but you know, if you use a pencil, sometimes you break the tip and you have to sharpen it and eventually you'll go through a pencil and you happen to need A new one that identifies learning. You have to break some pencils and go through a few erasers along the road of life. And everyone's done it financially to some degree or another. The more you can do that in a short time frame in small increments. Buying the beater car, repaying it, taking care of the transmission you need to fix, repaying it, taking care of paying your annual tax bill, repaying it. Like those are all building blocks, those are all pencils that you had to resharpen that are giving you that the reps that you need to be really successful in this process. And I love hearing about it.

And that's a big part of the appeal for me and sort of how that ties into naturopathic medicine is, you know, when I sit with patients, that's essentially what you're, you're hoping to and wanting to, and that's your goal, is to help people start to take control and charge of their health and to make decisions that are going to keep them healthy and that are going to empower them to eat better, to move their body, to do all of these things.

And so it's kind of like a chicken and the egg a little bit, right? So it's very similar in that sense, but it's in the financial realm. It's like, but it's the same template. It's like I'm very, very proactive about my health. Like the food we eat, the way we source it, the way we prepare it, you know, that's our nourishment and, and, but it's the same sort of mindset of responsibility, learning that whole loop you described. And so that's what's been really exciting over the past couple of years now that we're starting to really see traction. And the interplay of these different policies is like, ah, I can really feel the holistic aspect of this too, right. Like this is, you know, it's a system. You know, as I always talk about systems in naturopathic medicine, we're supporting systems so that the symptom don't have to yell. And so it's really about a systems based approach. And this is also a system. You're building an ecosystem and a system. And it's how I try to my best to work with the land, right, Is like all that energy that's coming through your land, water, sun, wind, the soil, the plants, the animals. How are you capturing that energy that's coming through and cycling it back into the land and not watching it drip away in entropy and just sort of dissipate into like, less potential for amplifying life on the land. And so you're bringing that in. It's like capturing that, that interest. You're capturing that water, you're building the soil, you're using the, the chicken manure. You're doing all of these things to build a healthier, more robust self regulating system. And that's what you try and do in sort of your health and with the land and financially. So to me, they're all this, the very similar mindset. And so when you start to. And the financial one was where maybe I had least confidence at a certain point. And so that's where, you know, I'm often like, okay, where do I have resistance? Where do I have lack of confidence? Where do I feel tension? I got to lean into that because there's something good on the other side of that. And so this was a big piece of the puzzle, obviously, to be able to lean into it and be like, oh, this is really, this is fun and exciting and empowering and keeps you creative.

Yeah, I love that. And I've seen it, I've seen it in, in the way that you're approaching your thinking, the questions that you ask. You're very inquisitive guy. You like, you love learning, you know, and I think that's a common trend with the people that we serve. The people that, you know, tend to listen to the podcast. They're avid learners, they want to take in something new and, and they want to say, okay, what's this new piece of information and how do I run that through what I already know? What's it going to cause for a new type of thinking for me? And I think the, these connection points you're making to land as you're, as you're talking about, you know, taking all the different energy elements, the energetics of, you know, just water going through a land well, if it's all runoff and you're not able to repurpose it to use it in your garden, how's that going to work? If you don't, you know, you determine where you're going to place your garden and where it's going to get sun exposure and all these kind of things. And then you might say, okay, now you've got it running, you've, you've got manure in there, you've got fertilizer, you've done all these things. You go through your first growing season, cool. Now the next year you're going to make improvements. Maybe two years from now, you're actually going to extend or expand the garden or you're going to create one in a new location for a different type of plant. So I'm looking at that. So I'm saying, oh, that's policy one capitalization.

Boom.

Over here is policy two capitalization, right? And you're doing annual elements. You have a growing season and, but you, you know, it produces fruit that you're, you know, that you're able to utilize, you know, in, in various ways to, to provide energy. And then you got to go in, replant it again next year. So you got to pay premium again. You got to keep, keep the machine in operation. And if you don't tend it, if you don't tend to garden well and you don't replant it, what's going to happen? You're not going to have a garden, you're not going to have the fruits of what that garden produces or the vegetables as it were. So I really see the connection point in a similarity to how we can think about a financial system around insurance policies, whole life policies that require a certain measure of maintenance, tending and care. Annual effort must go in to support that system. It's mostly mental effort and a couple of keystrokes at a computer. Beyond that there's not a lot really involved, but it does require a commitment to have that level of involvement.

And there's a degree of patience there too. Right? This isn't the, hey, I just put, I just 10x on a crypto, right? This is not, this is not that. This is, I've been at eight years and I'm really getting it and it's really driving it. And you know, you often use the analogy of the, the steam engine, right? It takes 90 of the energy to get to that point and then you've got the steam at the last 10, you're moving. You know, to me that's a fruit tree. You know how much input you put into a fruit tree those first couple of years and it's like, why am I doing this? This is like just a waste of my time, right? Feel like that, not infinite banking, but like you have, you know that like where's, where's, where is this going? What is this? You have to have that sort of understanding that there's patience here and there's a little bit of looking forward to.

Yeah, yeah, future, future focused. And so now, you know, another thing that you've been able to do, you've gone, I know you've gone on some vacations as well with your system a little Bit. So what, what's, what's that been like as far as, I guess again, how you maybe did that in the past, before infinite banking versus now doing it in, in this, in the ecosystem way that you developed and what's really key about this, Richard, I want to help people understand. Is that your way, your method, how you're doing it? Is that it's your way, your method? You're borrowing and grabbing things that you've heard on the podcast, watching different pieces of content. You know, you've attended a number of our group quarterly coaching sessions and, and you go through the client membership site and watch some of those videos. So each one of those things are little elements of inspiration and you might grab maybe 5% of what you hear, 10% of what you hear, and try to implement that in your own life. Is that a fair way of looking at how you've kind of put it together in a way that works for you and your family?

Yeah, part of it is like hearing the stories of how people use it. Oh, that. Yeah. Okay, that's, that's an interesting. Not. Doesn't fit my.

My exact ecosystem, but it's like it opens up some sort of way of thinking around how I can interact with these policies. And yeah, vacations are, you know, one of them where the profit first aspect. Right. So we've tucked away that percentage every month that, you know, I've kept track of and I know what that number is, and it's been generating and doing what it's doing in the policy instead of just sitting there in a bank account. And now it's like, okay, it's at a certain level here. All right, where do you guys want to go? You know, do we want to go to Mexico? Do we want to go to Sedona? What do you want to do? And you can do that. And it's coming from that place where it's been allotted to come from.

So I'm not stealing any peas to go on the holiday. It's just like this, actually, this vacation is going to enhance the work we do. It's going to enhance the relationships we have with our, each other in as a family. Because you know what it's like going holiday or a little more relaxed. You're, you're kind of having fun with your kids and you're, you know, you're just, it's on a completely different level. And so you can't measure that either. But it's, you come back restored, refreshed. So it's an investment in that sense, too. In those relationships, in your capacity to come back refreshed and see things a little differently, be re inspired in your work or whatever it may be, or just avoiding burnout. Right. So it just allows you to park that money while it keeps working and to take it out knowing that that's what it was going to be for.

Yeah, I love that. That's absolutely beautiful. And the fact you've been able to have those experiences means a lot to me. And to hear about them, to know that those experiences and memories were created in some way, part shape or form, through, Through a policy, really makes me quite happy. I think it's fascinating. And of course, being a mutual owner of a policy myself, if I think about someone, you know, you know, 5,000 people that we serve as clients, you know, give or take, and people are going on vacations every one, two or three years and they're all participating in the same ecosystem from that point. I don't know where you went and I don't know how you used it, but I'm pretty sure you went on vacation somewhere and it had to deal with a policy. You know, there's, there's a really unique sense of community that kind of comes from this, just that higher level knowledge base and awareness that that's what's going on in the background.

Yeah, it's nice to think about. Right. People are.

Maybe having some balance and some joy in their lives too. Right. Enough to be all serious money numbers all the time. It, you know, can be, you can have some levity and brevity and some, you know, margaritas or whatever.

Well, well, speaking of, of some joy, you know, I, I'd like to just kind of close with this. Obviously not everyone maybe is familiar. I alluded to it earlier that, but I've come to learn that you're known as the mushroom guy. So you're the most knowledgeable person around, anything to do with mushrooms that I've ever met. So I appreciate that. Now, you may not walk around your garden wearing a cape, but if you did have one, I would assume there would be mushrooms on it. And, you know, I would love to hear who is it that you would most wish to be a hero to?

Who I wish to most be a hero to? The easy answer is my kids. Yeah. Just to model to them how to live a good, balanced, connected life that is inspired and allows them to really engage and align with what their purpose on this earth is and to show them through my imperfections how possible that is. Love it.

Fascinating. Richard. This was a ton of fun. I was looking forward to this. I know we've talked about a number of times. To have you on the program finally is absolutely fantastic. Really appreciate it. And your great analogies used today. I think a lot of people will get value out of it. For those of you, of course, tuning in on the YouTubes, as it were, you're going to see a big pop up there that says, look at this amazing video. I'm great content. Well, that's the truth. And you should click on it and go ahead and watch that next video because we put it there for a reason. And for those of you on audio and in your car, can't wait to tune in next week where we continue to unpack the amazing infinite banking concept and the people we love and support, which includes you. Thank you so much.

Thanks, Richard.