73. Sales Jiu Jitsu: Black Belt Strategies To Double Conversions – Elliot Bayev & Daniel Moskowitz

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What is the secret black belt system for champion leaders? Welcome to wealth without Bay street, another episode. We're joined today by two incredibly special guests. We're joined today by Elliot Baev and Daniel Mouskowitz who have a combined 50 years experience in not only Brazilian Jiu jitsu, but also building eight figure sales teams. And it's an honor to have these gentlemen here with us today. We have got a jam packed, valuable session. So whether you're a business owner, an entrepreneur, we haven't met one yet who has said no. You know, I'd prefer just to stay stagnant and not, you know, grow to our highest potential. And so, Elliot, Daniel, welcome to the show. We're joined today also by Richard Canfield, who is the co host of Wealth Without Bay street, hailing from Chilliwack, British Columbia, also known as the wac. Now, Daniel, you're in Las Vegas. You're joining us from Las Vegas. And Elliot, you are in Toronto. And so, gentlemen, welcome to the show. It's a pleasure to have you on Wealth Without Bay Street.

Thank you.

Appreciate it. Thanks so much.

And I thought a good place for us to begin is maybe to talk to us a little bit about how the book came about because I have to share this. I got to show this to the people who are watching on the YouTubes. So Daniel, who's not only an amazing client, he had been instrumental in introducing me to principles that have helped me immensely. And when the book was released, I received this package.

Look at this, look, look at this package.

For anyone who's on the audio version, it's, it's a, it's a rocket box. It's got everything in it that you need. Basically you're ready to learn how to roll. I got it on mats to like start taking people down and throwing out kimuras and arm bars. Pretty much once you get this thing.

You got to see this. Go to the YouTubes and take a look at this. This is one sharp example of showing up in the marketplace in a way that not many are showing up. And so I was just so grateful and again, very appreciative of that. Gentlemen, thank you so much. The book's amazing and so maybe tell our listeners a little bit about how the book came about and why you're combining sales and Jiu Jitsu.

Yeah, so the book's called Sales Jiu Jitsu, the secret blackout system for champion leaders. And you know, I was on Facebook, of all places, as one. As one does. And I'm scrolling through and I see this message from a mutual friend of ours that Elliot was going to be running a program for small business owners and Jiu Jitsu. I was like, really intrigued. I had just lost 100 pounds and my neurologist said, you know, you're hitting your head on things. You can't type. Go learn a martial art. And it's like, it was a serendipitous moment.

So I have a program called Mastermind BJJ that brings high level entrepreneurs together for some private training. And then we'd go and do some masterminding at brunch. And someone brought Daniel out one day, and as I was teaching techniques or explaining some theory, you just see his eyes light up every once in a while. And as we went to brunch, I was, I picked his brain. I was like, what was it that stuck out to you? And it just, as we kept talking, it just turned out that there were so many really cool overlaps between how I teach jitsu and how he teaches sales. And this kept happening and happening. And eventually someone said, guys, shut up. You should just write a book. And so a few years later, here we are.

We were kidding around a little bit before the show, and I had said, when I initially read the title of the book, I thought to myself, wow, this would be really interesting, you know, if you're a restaurateur. And it's like, hey, if you want to make sure that you always get the checks paid, you got to combine Jiu Jitsu with these sales principles. You know, you can imagine, right? You've got a patron in a full arm bar on the floor. Just take my credit card, I'll pay the bill.

But for service, 101, 18% gratuity.

But you know, in all seriousness, I mean, when. When you talk about the champion leaders. So could one of you gentlemen describe. So what is a champion leader in your eyes?

Well, you know, it's taking a fundamental principle of what separates the book and embodying it. It's like winning without hurting anybody. That's like the core element. It's like an element within baked into Jiu Jitsu. And it's baked into my sales methodology. It has to be a win win. Even if they never buy from you, the encounter must add value. To that other person's business or their lives. That's a core tenement of how I see sales. Sales as a service, as a fundamental service of a force of good and change in the world. And not something that's negative in this world. It's something that leaves everybody better off than when you found them. And it just like it was an element there for me.

So I think the big picture on this idea of champion leaders is Daniel's experience in sales is so extensive. And we weren't trying to create just another sales book for just the average person. This was for those who are already high level, already successful, already sales black belts and helping them get to the elite level. And what Daniel's speaking to with this idea of sales as a service, sometimes people hear about the book and they get confused because it sounds like martial arts and sales. Isn't sales supposed to be cooperative? We know that only old school sales has that bullish mindset of we're going to go dominate. Whereas modern sales is sales service. It is more cooperative and collaborative. But that's where the beauty of Jiu jitsu as a unique martial art really comes in. Jiu jitsu, literally translated means gentle art. And the whole philosophy is to win without having to hurt the person or at least to give you that power. And rather than see the prospect as our opponent, if we know that our product or our service can serve them and not be getting sold by us, or not purchasing that service or product will actually harm their lives or their businesses, then we're not competing with them. We're competing with the forces that get in the way of them saying yes. And so it is very much collaborative art. And we apply those principles to the sales environment.

To answer it specifically, like, what we mean by leaders is like if you're a solopreneur, you're the leader in your company. If you're a leader of a sales team, you're the leader. If you're the one only salesperson in a business like you're the, you have to be a leader and lead from being a salesperson. And you know, as the book came together, it really for managers and sales professionals on those two sides, it really came together and solved some bigger, big, very big problems for them. So for the managers, it was like my team is in handling objections. They're not closing, they're not, you're not consistently getting results. And from sales professionals, things like no matter what they do, they can't get a prospects to engage. They, they're not able to handle those Objections, they get deals that fall through. And so as the book came together, it really was around that.

So the way it works, it follows we kind of take a Jiu jitsu competition as an analogy for a sales engagement. And I have a four phase process that I take my competitors through, which starts with pre fight, what we do before an engagement fight, how do we show up and open, winning, how do we actually close the deal and then post fight, what do we do after an engagement, win or lose. And so we took this process that I've honed over 25 years of training myself, 15 to 20 years of coaching, and then we just apply those same principles, those same ideas in the sales arena.

That's fantastic. I love how that ties perfectly, Daniel, to what you had identified is how it's like you, even if someone doesn't purchase or don't make that buying decision, they're still going to leave having a good experience. And that's exactly what those four steps outline, Elliot. So thank you for identifying that. I think it's a fantastic premise where we're, and especially you're capitalizing also on some great popular culture too right now. Like certainly the MMA world is very popular and that idea that jiu jitsu is again, the idea that, hey, we're in the cage and we're fighting for a title. But the reality is that's not where it stemmed from. It's kind of become that, but at its core it's this art form of competition, of creating better people through the art and the experience of training and all the lessons that you can learn in that. So it sounds like a phenomenal premise to combine that with the sales industry. I think it's exceptional. Yeah.

Thank you.

You know what comes up for me too, gentlemen, is that you've all heard the expression, I'm sure at some point, face the fear and do it anyway. Well, it's much easier, I would argue, to face the fear and do it anyway. When you've had a lot of practice and you feel like you're really well equipped to deal with it. And so that's what comes up for me, especially when I hear about martial artists who have been so committed and so disciplined to the art for so many years, you don't get that way without frequent repetition, practice, and win or lose, you're learning something, you're developing some skill. And so that's what came up for me. I just think it's such a great match. And for all of our viewers on the YouTubes and the people who are listening to us on your favorite podcast channel, we're talking about the book titled Sales Jiu Jitsu, the Secret Black Belt System for Champion Leaders. Now this is a book that you absolutely need to get your hands on. We're going to tell you a little bit more about that here in just a while. But before we do, gentlemen, can you tell us about the system that you've created in the sense of. We've gotten a good overview. Talk to us about an example of what life was like for a client before implementing your system and what life has been like for a client after implementing it. Maybe walk us through that.

Yeah. So we had a client, Craig, who's a financial advisor actually in Florida. And I'm using this example because.

Of the gentleman I have in front of me here. And so he has a successful, successful financial advisory, multi generational wealth advisory, focusing on asset management.

In retirees. Not pre retirees, but retirees. And just one element of the system which we're going to get into in a bit. And we want to give you guys some incredible strategies to leverage and rock it forward. But he implemented one section, one thing right away. And he literally said, daniel, this month I've had a record month. It literally is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars to me right away when he implemented just one of the seven that we're going to give to you today. And it's incredible to see even if you're successful already and you're stuck in your ways and he's got a multimillion dollar business. He's really happy he didn't have to show up and learn and be part of our coaching program. He didn't have to do that. He could just rest on his laurels. But this is what this is all about. It' taking elite people that are at the top of their game and seeing where they're leaving money on the table. And impact, and it's income, but it's impact as well. He could now serve multiple more families and have their retirement secure because now he could speak life into them. And actually, so it's impact and income.

Wow, that's a great example. Thank you for sharing that.

Some would say you can't have one without the other.

I don't think you can live in a fulfilled life without having one or the other, quite frankly. I mean, you can certainly have a lot of money at the expense of not caring about the people that you serve. But when we want to work with people.

That want both, for sure. Yeah. And so the system is recursive when you take it. When you get back to the bottom, it kind of moves to the top again. So in the sales logistics system, the whole book, the entire system that we have, there's 30 specific components to fully implement the system. And this has been tested on the mats and in business. Right. It's like it's got the both generating hundreds of millions of dollars in business, in sales. And so what we've done is we pick seven that we're going to dive into, and when implemented correctly, it's going to be exceptionally powerful to increase your conversion rates or your team's conversion rates with existing lead sources. This is the thing. It's like our book is not about lead gen. There's nothing to do with that. It's like taking if you can have. That's what Craig did in our, in our, in our program. He didn't do anything different. All he did was is double down on one element and it exponentially increased his conversion rates with the people he was already meeting. This is the thing. You're spending lots of money On Facebook, on YouTube, print advertising, radio, whatever it is. If you can convert them higher, you will make more money. You don't have to spend more in marketing. There's a lot of people out there saying you need to spend differently or spend this way or what have you. While that can be, that might be your problem for most people, if they can just start converting more tomorrow using some of these strategies that we're about to teach you now, it will be game changer for you.

This is going to be incredible value for our listeners and viewers. Let's dive in. I know you guys have been itching to drop some real value, so let's go for it. Take it away.

All right, so Elliot, let's move into pre fight. Let's. Let's set them up.

So, Jason, what I loved about what you were talking about in terms of the preparation and that being what allows you to feel prepared. The first element that we're going to talk about within pre fight is under the strategy subheading. And it starts with you develop a game plan. But what separates jiu jitsu from most other martial arts is not just the techniques. There are some other arts that have the exact same techniques, but it's how we train those techniques. We use what we call a live training. Say there's a move for escaping when someone grabs you in this way or that way. If your partner who you're practicing that move on never actually tries to stop you and you just do it against basically a dead opponent. Dead energy. Then what's going to happen in a self defense situation or in a competition when the person there does have bad intentions and is actually trying to stop you? Will you be ready? Absolutely not. So you need this alive training. You need that kind of energy. You know, they say iron sharpens iron. We need the intensity of a training partner who's trying to challenge us. And of course not going to level 100 when we're at level four. But it has to be progressive. But the idea is without that alive training, without that real resistance, you're not going to be ready for a real situation. This, as Dana will speak to, applies really everywhere in life and of course in the sales environment.

My team would always go ahead.

I was going to say real simulation is much better than theoretical simulation. And so if you, if you are truly simulating it, Richard, this brings me back to the cone of learning. And if you really want to retain something, the best way to do it is to simulate it. But what I love about what Elliot and Daniel have done is that it's real simulation. So when you go up against an opponent, again, if we're on speaking to martial arts, for example, it's no different than sales role playing. If the person that you're role playing with is just simply, huh, yeah, that's not real world dialogue. That's not real world simulation. And so that's one thing that I just again, I love about the way that you guys drew this together on, you know, correlating it to martial arts. It's brilliant.

So my team would always do these, these pre scripted ones. They do pre scripted scenario plays. Hey guys, here's this for the week. And they get on live calls and they wouldn't be able to like they would get that objection. They tank. And so what I created was sparring partners. And every single week they have to get on the mats and they, they come together for an hour and each of them for 30 minutes becomes somebody they could not overcome that week. They even put accents on. They like, they'll get into the mood that person was on and they become that resistance for the other rep. And we have a logging book, a sparring partner log. And this is one of the tools we have in our, in our coaching program where it actually allows you to put in like what were the, what were some of the ways they handled the objection. What were some maybe new hooks for that niche that maybe you hadn't thought about it has a spot for. Like here's the recording, the audio recording or the video recording of that. And it systematizes things. Right. When you have a system in place and you have processes, and you do those processes every time, you will get results. And so this was a great way to disseminate the information that comes out of these sparring sessions and get it in the hands of other people within the organization. So it really turned it into a chore, into something that was alive and actually saw results. And that was one of the. For me, when Elliot taught me that, it's like, oh, my goodness, how. And I brought it right away into my sales teams.

That's so good.

Also probably increase some of the relationship status of those sparring partners, because now they're doing things in a different way and they're at a different communication level. So it amps up some teamwork aspects additionally inside of an organization.

Well, and it also takes you to that, okay, win or lose, like we described earlier, while you have a sparring partner, you've got somebody on your team who can step in and take another crack at the deal. You know, that's what happens in a situation where if you felt like, hey, look, you know what? I really feel like I dropped the ball here, or, you know, I got. For lack of better analogy, I got caught in the arm bar and I had to tap out. And so, Rich, can you step in to the octagon and see if you can take a crack at this? And so it's not because the individual might have lost. It doesn't mean that the deal is lost. If you have other people in your group who have been sparring and who are ready and say, you know what? I can see where we might be able to set up the win here and be able to step in and do it. And that was one of the favorite parts of the book for me, is that setting up the win, uh, it just really resonated with me personally.

That's awesome. Yeah. And sometimes you. The rest will see something new and they will go back, like, they'll send. They'll send. Hey, they'll send a video. I love Bombbomb as one of my favorite tools to leverage in. In. In business, we literally send thousands. Thousands. My reps. We have a team account. We send thousands of these things, and they'll say, hey, you know, I was talking to my. One of my colleagues about you, and they mentioned this and that. It's like. And it re. Sparks the conversation again. And that, because it came, the fire was stoked within the sparring sessions for that individual was like, oh, yeah, I'll go back with that. And they just. They engage and they re engage. So, yeah, you get it, or somebody else takes another crack at it. I love that, Jason. That's awesome.

It's so good. All right, strategy two.

All right, so let's move into the domain of fight anointing. The fight. Now in, we're gonna. We're gonna. As like black belt sales professionals, you get paid to solve problems. Like, at the end of the day, if you're not solving problems, you're not. You're not getting paid. And with this in mind, we're gonna. I'm gonna walk you through three different strategies in this area. Secure your position, improve your position, and set up the win. These are the three that we're gonna talk about in this domain.

Okay?

So, Elliot, let's set us up in this. In this high level. In this domain, a fight so to.

Understand, for those that have never maybe seen jiu jitsu, but maybe have heard that, you know, it's becoming quite popular and that it's becoming known as the most effective martial art for a smaller person facing a bigger person. Why is that? Well, it's all based on one principle, positioning. From a good position, things are easy. From a bad position, things are difficult. And so rather than try to win the fight from wherever you are, you want to position yourself so well that, as we say, winning is inevitable and losing is impossible. And so a very common mistake that you'll see on the mats, you'll see in the sales environment, is as soon as someone gets into what looks like good position, they'll try to jump to the close, they'll try to go for checkmate, they'll try to go for the submission. Your first job, if you get into a good position, is just to secure it, just to make sure that you actually hold it and you don't get pushed back an inch. Otherwise, if you take too many risks too early, all that work you did when you opened, when you connected with the person, you might end up wasting all that and be put into a bad position. So once we get to a good position, step one is, as Daniel said, we secure that position as our foundation.

That is so good.

It requires real time adjustment. It requires the ability to do that. And how do you get that? You simulate it.

Exactly. It all ties back together. Yeah. You get in the ring. So in secure position, let's say, you know, if you have a niche where your team is not closing, you know, this could be the reason, like, if they're getting, especially if they're getting into a new Niche or new markets or new areas. Maybe they're not as comfortable. I call this getting to the truth of the matter. They're not as comfortable getting to the question behind the question. It's like the third or fourth thing. So I remember selling corporate video. I went into the HR company and they said, you know, our staff are just not on or they're unhappy. Like, okay, well, tell me more about that. Well, we did a merger recently. Oh, okay. Merger, got it. What was up? What was up about that? Well, the CEO had to get let go because there was some funny business going on. Okay. And then now they know they don't really trust us anymore. Okay, tell me more about that. And now it's like, well, management and staff are really out of alignment. Okay. So I had the know with all to like ask the question behind the question behind the question to get to the truth of the matter. If I was not comfortable in that niche, I may have just gone with unhappy and solved for that and not make the sale happen. But now if I, if I continue and push and ask for the question behind the question, I get to a place of, of knowledge and I can actually solve a real problem for that organization and I will make the sale. So that's in the domain of securing your position. A way of doing that next is how do you now improve it? Just little bit more. And again, these are systems, so if you do them every time, they get the outcomes that you're looking for. So improve the position. You've ever been in a situation where you just knew the sale was going to close. You're like, it's going to close. We're in the bag here. And then someone you didn't know about came out of the woodwork and killed the deal. So I call these hidden decision makers, right? And every domain has them. Like, even if it's like, you know, financial sides like husband and wife maybe. Oh, no, I make all the decisions and then suddenly the wife, like 11th hour says, what are you doing that for? And then they kill it. Or, or the wise uncle comes into play. Or, you know, for me, it was a lot of boardroom decisions where, you know, I remember getting in with a, with a major insurance company and we were like, we're in. I said, we're in six figure land here. Like, we're now in six figures. Who needs to be a part of it? And the guy says, oh my goodness, the whole board. I'm like, great, bring it on. Give me everyone's LinkedIn accounts. Let me find out who they are. Let me figure out. And then that's where, you know, what we call quantum strategy comes in play. You're like, scenario gazor. Like, we're getting all the different scenarios created in order to do that. So, but it starts with understanding who those hidden decision makers on who needs to come to the table to make the decisions early on so that you are in a position to really, really.

Be able to get those consensuses early on. So the next, the next part is set up the win.

And so if you've ever gotten to the closing part of a deal and you've gotten an objection that you just couldn't handle, and it happens to everybody, even the best of the best of the best, I'm going to try to give you now in this moment, a bulletproof vest that you can wear going into the closing that will automatically give you immunity to any kind of objection. And this is setting up your win in what I call the cost of inaction or the coi. And what most people do is they ignore the cost of an action or they actually do the cardinal, like, sin, and they, they state the cost of an action for the customer. And what you should be doing is making the customer tease, like, making the customer, like, say, the cost of an action themselves. You're like, teasing it out of them. And what's really important is, like, you can't tell them that. They have to tell it to you. And when you want to leverage it in the future, if you have to bring this out, you have to remember how they said it. If someone says, oh, if we don't solve that problem, then we're going to have to maybe shut the doors. Or they said, well, you have to kill half the staff. Let go half the staff, not kill them. That's wrong. But there's a difference in that tonality. Jokingly about it or really serious about something. And if you leverage this back, they almost have to hear themselves when you say it to them and the speed and how you said it. And when you do that, they hear themselves and they're like, oh, right, I got to solve this problem.

So that brings us into, I think, the winning thoughts.

Winning thoughts.

Oh, do you have thoughts?

Yeah, I love winning thoughts.

Well, I have a couple. First off, you know, the decision makers, the external decision makers that get in the way, I mean, I think every industry, sales industry, has that. It just depends maybe on the sticker price of what it is that someone's talking about. So the bigger the sticker price, the more impact that external decision maker has, obviously. And also sometimes the more clout that they can have as well. And we find that a lot, especially like you identified the boardroom scenario. Well, every business owner has an accounting or accounting team, and often that's the person that holds the hammer on some of the decisions. And oh, yeah, this is great. Let me run it by my accountant. I'm like, great. Well, our mentor, Nelson Nash, he used to say, might as well run it by your garbage man. He knows more about it.

Because if you need to run it by him, why is he in the meeting? You know, here's what we need to do. Don't run anything by him. Let's bring him into the meeting and let's actually have a conversation. Final questions. But that was his thing. It's like, you might as well run about your garage man. He knows more about it. And so I think identifying those people up front is really important. And how you, how you recognize that is really key. And then getting into the next phase and as you said, teasing out that important.

Them getting to identify what that real roadblock is. So key, because now it's not a matter of. It's nothing that you're doing. They're the ones that are fully engaged and they're coming to a realization. You're just clarifying what's already there, and you're just creating repetition. And often repetition is maybe not our best teacher, but it's our best memory tool. And so hearing them saying out loud, hearing it read back, it's like, okay, great, that's quantifiable. It's clarifying well.

And it begins with, I think the, again, the simplicity of if you know that your solution is going to solve the problem, if the recipient doesn't understand that they have a problem, the solution just won't matter to them anyway. And so sometimes it's going back to clarification of the problem, but doing it from a place where you're coaching that out of the prospective client that you're working with. And so when that's happened to me in the past, I've always gone back to the problem so that we're standing next to each other examining the problem together. So if you would just take a moment. Why don't we just go back to the problem? Could you take a moment again and just clarify the problem for me? And then it just, it opens up that dialogue and it brings you back together. If you know that genuinely your solution is the solution to the problem, then you don't have to. We were sharing this just the other Day. Where have you guys ever dealt with somebody who has desperation just oozing out of them?

Even if that's the solution, if you're coming across as desperate versus someone who's just coming across as calm, confident, capable, and they're in your corner, there's a much, much, much higher probability that you're going to cross the success line and the deal is done line. And if somebody steps in and is objecting or putting, as Neil Richard says, putting a nail in the coffin on the deal, if you're that confident in your solution, then you should be confident enough to get in the ring.

I love that.

I know that's what I would do. Because if I truly care about the prospective client and the solution and somebody is just inserting themselves and wanting to put a nail in the coffin because for whatever reason, they just have an opinion, but it may be.

Uneducated, it may be incomplete, they haven't been a part of the dialogue that you've been having with the prospect up to that point. You've got to be confident enough to say, hold on a second.

Hold on a second. Let's examine that a little bit more.

It's happened. And if you have the capability which comes through your process of simulation sparring, which I love, then your odds go up. But whose favor do you want the odds to be stacked in your prospect? You want them to solve their problem. You're just the one that's going to help them get that done. So, yeah, it's so good.

I think the extra decision maker entering the equation would be similar to having the trainer. All of a sudden you're. You're rolling on the mat, you know, and the trainer just kind of like, up. I opened the cage door, I'm in, like, oh, no. I'm going to separate you guys. I'm going to pull you apart like, before the match is over. Like, that's kind of the equivalent of what's happening in the sales environment. And it's like, no, like you're.

They're.

They're. We're still on the clock here. Like, we haven't had a thing. You haven't had the. No one's tapped the mat yet.

So, yeah, I love that context of being on the same side of the problem with the customer. Like, that is. That's key. That's really, really key. Looking at. You're both looking at the problem together. You're not looking at it across, you're looking at it. You're both looking at it together.

Absolutely. I'll tell you Guys, something. And you know, you feel free to use this in your next book and you know, make it do what you want it to do. But it's just like picture this. If you just picture this in your mind for our listeners as well. If you ever have watched an interrogation where a detective is interviewing a potential suspect.

To develop that rapport and to essentially calm things down, get the person to a place where they're comfortable opening up and talking. If the detective is sitting across the table from the person, it's very confrontational.

It's that get in the octagon, I'm staring you down, you're staring me down.

Versus if you've ever seen the detective slides over and slides around the desk and gets right next to the person. That's all done by design. That's not done because the detective wants to get close to the person and just become friendly. It's done to open up dialogue and get the conversation flowing. And that is an art form that's not easy to do. The only way to get comfortable doing it is by doing it. And it's the very same thing in a sales conversation. You've got to slide around the desk and get right next to your prospective client. Don't sit across from them in that sense. Stand beside them. Sit beside them and say, let's take a look at that problem together. I know I've got the solution, but until you recognize the problem, my solution won't matter to you anyway.

Love it.

Isn't that good?

Oh, it's great. Within the fight section, the first subsection is Connect Connection and one of the great Jiu jitsu teachers, fighters of all time, Hickson, Gracie. Connection is kind of the root of everything he teaches. And what you're talking about is connecting with the client, but connecting on your terms. And that's that. We go into depth in that section on how that works and what you've been saying about.

The import, you've been really reinforcing the need to focus on training. And in the art of war, they teach to, they teach that. Most people only ever learn about two ways to address conflict or challenge, fight or flight. But the third that most don't, aren't aware of is planning ahead. And that's what training is. That's what Jiu Jitsu is. If you end up in a self fence situation, you've never trained, okay, well, you don't have any other options except fight or flight. But if you've prepared for that through training, then you, you know what to do should things go this way or.

That way, that's what you fall back on is your training.

That's right.

Whereas if you don't have it or even if you had it but you didn't simulate it, then you know that you're likely going to be in trouble, you know, potentially in a situation like that physically. And that's where that, that instinct, that fight or flight kicks in. And I'm personally just from my own person, I'm very hardwired genetically differently that way. And it's because of capability and confidence, you can lean into that and diffuse or if you have to, if you have to take it to that level that you're. You, you're already prepared. You're already prepared to. And so the more prepared you are, the less you, the less you, you have to, like, you can, you can really diffuse it. And the same in a sales conversation, if things start to go sideways a little bit, if you're capable and confident through repetition, you can diffuse and you can get things back on track and. Versus someone who might panic and just want to get off the phone or get out of the meeting or it's.

The fight or flight.

Right.

Face the fear and do it anyway.

Well, one thing I think is interesting is when you're talking about the beginning of the call, before we went on record, you guys were mentioning how in your, in your training, training videos and the actual course platform that you have, you actually are taking the demons. You're doing actual demonstrated jiu jitsu work and you're making the correlated, like I think you guys even said, you're talking on stages. You're going on stages, you're promoting the book and you're speaking from the front, but you're doing live demo in audience format. And then as well in the training videos where it's like, hey, we're going to show a demonstration of a type of scenario. We're going to roll on the mat a little bit. And then now you're going to relate that to them. Let's put that into the sales situation so people get to see that visual connection. And I think like, most people have a visual learning atmosphere. We learn in different ways. And some people absorb, you know, text, you know, differently and stuff like that. But. But the idea of a picture or us or a simulation that we can visualize remembering a movie is easier when you think about the scene in the movie than just remembering the quote from the movie, right?

Yeah.

So being able to do that in a training environment, I think is so key to how you guys design That I love that scenario. And can you speak more to that training and how you guys the thought behind building it that way and maybe give us an example of something that you would do up on stage if, if our listeners were sitting in front of a stage with you guys right now.

So I'll speak to it first and I'll let Elliot speak. But the idea of like sales is sometimes referred to as verbal Jiu Jitsu, like as an analogy. So we take the physical ideas of the concepts and we show them physically and then we say, okay, now let's talk about how it does the sale. So we're taking something that's a esoteric, very mind driven thing and creating physicality to it for the first time. From my knowledge, nobody's ever done this before, is taking the physicality of Jiu Jitsu and linking it to actual sales techniques. So Elliot, speak a little bit more to what that might look like.

Yeah, well, I think the part of the reason there was so much energy were not only, you know, as we said earlier, Daniel and I seeing overlaps in our philosophies and in our teaching styles and specific strategies. But Jiu Jitsu is just very, it's gross motor, it's big picture. Like you can see things happening, you can see, oh, who's it better to be the person on top or bottom. You can see the principles of positioning. And that just helps elucidate the underlying principles that can be applied anywhere. But one of the less obvious elements that being able to see it visually affords is even if, and this was designed, I should mention this was designed for someone who's never seen Jiu Jitsu, you don't need to know anything about Jiu Jitsu in order to get all the value out of this. But these for our stage presentations, for those in our video course, having that visual not only allows you to see each lesson, but it also allows you to see the system from start to finish. It allows you to see how one piece leads to another and how those, those pieces are really a chain system that are vital in a sales engagement. And we'll speak to this a little later, but the importance of having a system that not only works consistently but then is also adaptable is also very important. And again, just this, the ability to see it visually makes it just so much clearer. And as Richard was saying, everyone learns differently. Some people are fine with just the book, the text, some need to hear us talk about it. But for many of us were only served by having that visual aid. And so having it just brings everything together in a way that makes it easy to digest. And that's our goal. We didn't write this just for ourselves. We wrote it to serve those who are reading it. We created the course to serve those who want to increase their own businesses, their own success. So we want to make it as accessible as possible.

It's a great segue right into the domain of winning because we have a great. There's a little example that we leverage in that. And what it blew my mind is like what it takes to not let a sail slip through and those incremental little pieces. And, you know, Elliot talks about a little bit about the arm bar and squeeze. So Elliot, you talk a little bit about that as we move into reinforcement cement.

Sure. So.

We talked about positioning. Your first job, once you get a good position is to keep it secure, your position. That's when you can look to improve it. But you don't do this in giant leaps. You don't take big steps forward. Small incremental improvements will create a better and better position until eventually, as Daniel spoke about, you want to set up your win. You don't just jump on the win. You set it up so that there's no other choice but for the person to give you that opportunity. Then once we get into winning, we're now talking about submitting the person. For those not familiar with jiu jitsu, the idea is to that there is a checkmate. There is a finishing move that is a clear sign of victory. And in sales, that's closing the deal. Under the submit section, we go and we attack the submission. The last section within submit is to finish. Most people, once they get a submission, they try to finish the submission and they skip that in between step of reinforce. So if I go for an arm lock, for example, which for those not familiar, it's a move where you try to wrap your body, your hips really around someone's arm so that you can hyperextend it, causing them to give up. Once you get into that position, instead of going right for the finish, if you make tiny little adjustments, like pinching your knees, turning their thumb a certain way, angling your body a certain way, it becomes that much less possible for them to escape. And there's an expression from Eastern philosophy, most people fail in their endeavors because they're not as careful in the end as they were in the beginning. We put so much careful work into positioning to get here. For us to not treat this final position with just as much care and just as much positioning focus is Again, as Daniel was talking about, going to allow the victory to slip through our fingers.

That's the highlight reel of the show right there. Right there. Elliot, that was brilliant. That was brilliant.

So as we move into like reinforce and then I'll talk about cement. So in the reinforce, as we bring in the sales domain, if you've ever been deep in a sales process and you're like, man, they should be really hot right now, but they're lukewarm. That the reinforced element that might be missing is what I call future casting. And this could be the. This is like, it's the opposite of cost of inaction. It's just like future casting. It's where you're. You co create with the prospect. What is the future like when you solve the problem? It's like the opposite of cost of inaction. It's the cost of action in a way.

Right.

And when you do this in a salient way, when they can really see that you've solved the problem, how many more people could you hire in the company could you increase to have a bonuses that year? How many more stores can you do? What's your retirement going to be like? This was the one thing that Craig did, our student in Florida, when he doubled down on future casting. It was literally well made hundreds of thousand dollars more in that one month. And it's an incredible technique that instead of just going straight for the close, like you've done a great job, slow down, do this one moment, like reinforce it, take your time and then, and then move into the finish. And then move into the finish.

So the last step, you know, the worst thing that can, and Dana will speak to this, the worst thing that can happen is you do all the work, you get the close and then suddenly it disappears on you and so on the mats. The worst thing that can happen is you positioned yourself. You attack the submission, you reinforce, you got the finish. The opponent tapped, they actually signaled defeat, but they did it on this side and the referee was over here. If you let go, which has happened to me, you know, I didn't want to hurt the person. I was trying to be a nice guy. They tapped, they screamed out, whatever, I let go. And the ref, for whatever reason doesn't see it. Now you're putting all that hard work and the whole rest of the competition in the hands of the integrity of the other person to say, oh yeah, I did that. I committed to that. And you do not accept the signals of victory. You wait for the actual victory. You do not let go when the person Taps you let go when the referee pulls you off. And this is very important that.

Sometimes it'll look like things are going your way. It's very easy to mistake that for. For the actual victory. And Daniel will speak to this on the sales arena.

So as we move into sales, it's like with sales managers, and some of you might be. And you know, if you're not, then you may have had this happen to you where you call your boss or your sales rep, it's like, hey, I won the sale. I got it. And the next day they call back all sheepish and go, they canceled the deal. And what's happening there is that you're not cementing the sale. And what that means is taking the time to actually celebrate with them, having them mark the moment, and doing the thing that a lot of salespeople, professionals, don't do is actually talking about what the next steps are. What can they expect? When are they going to get that first call, how many pieces of paper they have to sign? What does the next 24, 48, 7 days, 2 months, 1 year look like? Together? It's getting the peace of mind that they made the right decision. Essentially, they leave with going, oh, wow, I made such a good decision. Pat myself on the back.

Yeah.

And that way you'll never lose a sale. So as we move into the final, the final strategy we want to share with you in post fight, if you've ever had a sales professional yourself, you completely nailed it out of the park one day and the very next day, using, you know, the same strategies, same techniques, that wasn't successful. You just.

It fell to the floor like, it doesn't work. This is why you need systems. And I've always reviewed and focused in on my lost sales, like my lost sales. And I very rarely reviewed my wins. Very rarely. And what Elliot shared about this element in from a jujitsu standpoint, absolutely blew my mind and changed my thinking.

So in this last section, post fight, we start with having kind of a. We have to have a hunger to learn, but then we have to do the work to actually invest in a postmortem, win or lose. There's an expression in we use in jiu jitsu, I'm sure it applies. It's used many other places you win or you learn, implying that a loss is a lesson. And so you have to do the. But if you only do that for your losses, you might not see some lessons that are hidden in your win. So I'll share a quick story. I have a purple belt MMA fighter who is fighting a local black belt. And because jiu jitsu specializes in fighting on the ground and our, my athlete has very good striking and wrestling, we knew that if the black belt was going to have a chance to win, it was probably going to be on the ground. So the strategy, even though we're confident there, was to never let the fight get thrown the ground. It was very one sided. My athlete won in three minutes. And it would be very easy to look at such an easy victory and say, oh, there's nothing really to learn. But because as Daniel spoke to, we do this as a system. We do it win or lose. We saw that there was one moment in the fight where even though my, my purple belt was keeping very good distance, the black belt shot from a crazy distance and got close enough to grab the hips. My purple belt stopped it, got on top and won the fight within like 30 seconds after that. But why was it possible for him to get to the hips? Had we not done that analysis, we would not have seen that. Yes, his distance was great, but he was standing right in front of him. He wasn't circling around. And because we did that, we added that into his training and that ended up being very relevant in his next fight. And so this is the idea that there's, there's lessons everywhere, but if you just willy nilly kind of do some analysis here and there, you'll progress for sure. But it's not the same as doing it. As Daniel spoke to a system.

I love that because I'll tell you.

The very best of the best at anything are the ones who never lose that hunger to learn and to grow. And.

If I could share for myself personally, it's like.

Think about that craving that you've had where you're just, you're so, you're so hungry that you just, you can't wait to sit down and have that meal. That feeling. You, everyone, all of our listeners, all of our viewers, you've all experienced that the greater the victory, the greater that sense of hunger is for me. And it's like.

You contrast that with someone who maybe has success and then they lose their humility and they think that they've arrived. I think of.

Some of the best, not going to mention any names with these YouTube algorithms and the Facebooks and Instagram and all that, but some of the best call it one of the best mixed martial art fighters on the planet. He's got a whiskey company and you know, and when he was going into his last fight and you know, I can Say so Mike Tyson said, you know, it's pretty hard for someone to run five miles in silk pajamas.

So if you don't ever lose your hunger and your humility and your willingness to grow and to learn and you learn, I would say, I don't know what the ratio is. I learned personally equally from both wins and losses, but I really examine the losses even more because it's there, there's something there, there's something that. And that's why you need a good coach. You know, you need someone who can help you look at it from a different vantage point and be able to say, whoa, wait a second, you skipped right past that. Didn't you see what just happened there? Like, let's go and let's hit the mats. Let's go and work on that. So it's, this has been just such an incredible, incredible show. I could talk to you guys until Sunday about all this stuff.

I love the post fight breakdown, Elliot, because in the specific example, I think the real use case that you provided, people will resonate with that very well. What comes up for me and reminds me, Jay, is, you know, think back to all the different live events, all the, all the all day trainings that we've done and teaching people the concept of infinite banking, et cetera. Every time that we have a webinar event or we would do a live full day sessions, we would always have a debrief, very effective debrief. And we would talk about not only what worked, what worked exceptionally well, what worked, but what could we have done better? Where were the pieces? That boy, if we would have just tightened that up a little bit. Little things like, hey, you know what? We ran out of water. There wasn't enough water during the day. Hey, you know what? The air conditioner kicked on and it was kind of a little loud during one period of the day. You know what, you know, maybe we, maybe we fed them too much bread at lunch. People were a little bit, you know, you know, like saturated with the food that we fed them. Like these are the little tweaks that, where you recognize them and you pivot and you adjust and you make those subtle changes. You get a little bit better and a little bit better and a little bit better as you fine tune that machine. And it's always possible there's no way that you could, there's no way you could have arrived in perfection. We should always be chasing for it because. And chasing for it and hope that we never achieve it because then there's not. Then as soon as you achieve it. There's nothing new to learn. Should always be chasing for it.

Yeah, when, when you, when you focus on your wins, you'll do more of the things you do well more often. And so that's what happened with my team when they focused on their wins and dissected the things, not, not focusing on the things that they could have improved, which is, which need to be there. It's also seeing the brilliance of yourself. Ooh, that was really good. Like, that was great because we actually only hear, we only retain 20% of the things we hear. So when you go to hear yourself again, you're hearing the elements that you were like, oh, wow, I said that, didn't I? And you're like, they can write that down now. It's almost like a feedback loop of reinforcement. So we have a ton of great tools in our system and the call review guide is like one of them. And it's a tool that's going to help you or your sales team break down your calls, whether or it was one that, you know, closed or one that lost. And what it does is it prompts you to help you discover where you can improve. And what it means is that you're going to increase your conversion rates, you're going to increase your company revenues, and of course, you're going to increase your company's incomes, you know, overall. So again, like, you don't need to know Jiu Jitsu in order to implement any of the system. It's, it's, it's completely, you know, you can even read the whole book without the Jiu Jitsu. You're going to miss some of them, the extra knowledge, but it's there, you know, and whether you're a solopreneur, you have a small team or you have a large team, like the Sales Jiu Jitsu system will show you the exact steps that you need to do in order to get to, you know, the next level. And you know, we've created this incredible training program. It's called how to Sell the Sales Jiu Jitsu Way. It's our entire 30 step system. It's with videos of us on the mats and then on, you know, doing video content with fillable worksheets, all of our training logs and call review guides, and we have objection databases, everything. It's all off the, the shelf. Basically, you just go and plug and play. And so if you, if you're interested in checking that out, you can get to salesjujitsubook.com forward slash how to sell. That's sales J I U J I T S U book.com forward slash how to sell it's on special for like 197 bucks right now. And we get, we even give a 30 day guarantee on it. So like you can't really go wrong.

Oh God. Jump all over that. Don't even hesitate. And you know, eight weeks of coaching.

It's eight weeks of coaching. Basically it's a coaching program. You come in, you spend eight weeks with us, you go through the curriculum and you come on on a one hour call with us and we'll actually coach you to the curriculum in order for you guys to get results and you know, we'll break down calls and that kind of stuff. A lot of fun. A lot of fun.

Yeah. Even if I don't have a gi, if I just go get one, I'll get more, I'll get more engaged in the video content.

100% no ghee. No. One of the things about the coaching program that's been amazing for me to see because as Daniel and I were writing the book, I got to hear his experience and his strategies and those were all amazing. But then because of the, with the coaching program, we have entrepreneurs and business owners, sales executives in the courses asking questions that are relevant from challenges they had that week. And to see him be able to knock those answers out of the park and help these people like in real time, for me that's, that's as valuable as the whole course itself because sometimes you have a very specific challenge and to have a, you know, a sales black belt be able to solve it for you, live is, is as for me has been amazing to watch. Just want to throw that out there.

Oh, the life lifeblood of any business. I'll close with this like sales of life. Love any business. And if you're in any position not feeling like uneasy with sales, you will fall in love with sales after the next eight weeks. And I really say that, like sales is a noble profession. Like if you're a professional salesperson, it's noble to do sales in a role. If you're a solopreneur, when you put on that sales hat is a noble profession. When we get real problems in the hands of folks to solve their problems, it impacts the economy, it brings in more jobs for people, people's lives become better, their businesses better. Like we're a force of good when you do sales the right way. And so we'd be excited to be part of that for anybody. So thanks for, thanks for having us.

Love it. It's been a treat, guys. We appreciate you both so much. And so again, the book that we're talking about, sales Jiu Jitsu, the secret black belt system for champion leaders. We've got the links in the show notes. Guys, make the rest of your day great. Thank you for being our guests and to all of our viewers on the YouTubes, to our listeners on the podcast channels, thank you and make the rest of your day great as well on the YouTubes. Just take a look over there. You're going to see a playlist because as always, we want you to continue your journey of education and learning. Gentlemen, it's been a pleasure. We'd love to have you back again. We have to pick up this conversation. Have a great rest of your day, guys.

Thanks, guys. Thanks for listening to the Wealth Without Bay street podcast where your wealth matters. Be sure to check out our social media channels for more great content you hit. Subscribe on your favorite podcast player and be sure to rate the show. We definitely appreciate it. And don't forget to share this episode with someone you care about. Join us on the next episode where we continue to uncover the financial tools, strategies and the mindsets that maximize your wealth.