How Devan Kline Built a $500M Fitness Empire From a Parking Lot

You've got to be able to overcome yourself in moments where it's insignificant. If you want to be able to step into the boss's office and get a promotion or leave the relationship that you're in that's toxic or whatever it might be that we're scared of, we're building confidence in human beings at the gym. We're not selling memberships. What ultimately broke it for me, Jeff, was that I had, I had completely like 180'd in a contrast, like gone the exact opposite direction from my father who was in and out of prison, jail. 50 domestic charges by the time I was 18. And I, and I have to acknowledge that I'm the 0.00000001% that was able to come from my situation and be where I'm at today. But you don't have to build a $500 million business in 10 years from nothing. Like, I understand how rare that is. You got to value humans, but you do not have to value the profession. So if you walk around all day, you don't value somebody who is mediocre at their profession, not at their personal life, but they're mediocre in this environment, you cannot let that person stay on board on the team or else the other high performers are going to leave. What I realize is that there's so many people out there that are worshiping something else that's material in their life and they haven't found something, whatever it is to them, that's bigger than themselves or bigger than anything here. And like, you You know, not believing anything tends to be the reason, from my observations, why people get depressed. They don't believe in anything. There's no hope of the future.

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Unemployable Podcast. I'm Jeff Dudan. If you are an ex-professional baseball player turned fitness guru and then turned franchisor, now with nearly 500 locations open, and you now have an expanding business portfolio that includes participation from people like Kevin Hart and Marshmello, You must be— you can only be Devin Klein. Welcome, Devin.

That's a good— that's a great intro. I feel honored. Yeah, Kevin and Mello joined the brand not too long ago and really authentic relationship. It's been like 2 years running trying to get them to be a part of the franchise and a part of the ownership structure of the business. And yeah, it's been— it's kind of put Burn— it's kind of solidified us in a weird way. We've been around for a long time, but now people are coming out of the woodwork saying, oh, you guys partner with Kevin or you guys partner with Marshmello, like I think I'm going to join now, you know what I mean? So it's been, it's been really cool.

Yeah. So Marshmello's not a good enough nickname now. You've got to go to Mello.

Oh, you know.

Yeah.

Well, I probably shouldn't do that because his manager Mo was like, hey, whenever you talk about Marshmello, say the word Marshmello because that's our brand. So sorry, Mo. Marshmello is— yeah, he's a— I've seen him and, you know, without his helmet on, he's an amazing guy. Super nice. The sweetest guy, like full of joy. Just like you would expect if you listen to his music. Yeah.

Yeah. Fantastic. Well, here's the opening question, Darren. What role does fitness play in leading and living an awesome life?

Man, you, I think we know each other really well. We've gone back how many years, Jeff? I mean, you've, you were essentially the first person that ever really, you know, outside of Morgan and I that instilled belief into us before we were financially qualified to rent a building. We rented a building from you and I know that you know this story well, but I'll answer your question, but I want everybody to know that, you know, you're like, you're not only believing in the people that, you know, you're leading as a franchisor, your franchisees and all of their employees, but you always have given outside of any expectation of return. And I was that, and I'll never forget that from you when you rented a building to me when I was getting kicked out of my parking lot and no landlord would underwrite me. 'Cause I didn't, I was young and broke and didn't have enough money and. And you said, you know what, uh, quote, your quote was, this thing is sexy. You should franchise it. And, um, we did. We took your advice and, you know, the reason I took your advice is because I love, well, I love being a trainer. First of all, after baseball, I got released from the San Francisco Giants and decided to, uh, hang up and retire, hang up my cleats and retire and, and, and ultimately went headfirst into the fitness industry because I saw what it could do for people as I was living in host families. Throughout the country, I wouldn't stay by myself. I would stay with a host family and I got to see how like normal American families were, you know, what their real issues were. They were lethargic and didn't have any energy and weren't eating healthy and weren't moving their body. And, you know, where I come from, it was like way worse than that. It was like chaos and drug abuse and cops at your house every weekend. And I come from a broken background. We can talk about that if you want to, but I just saw the contrast going into these homes. I saw what fitness can do for people, to answer your question. And so ultimately when My baseball dreams got rug pulled from me and I decided to hang 'em up. I started Burn Bootcamp in a parking lot here in North Charlotte, not having any money really outside of $600 to my own name and some dumbbells and some yoga mats from the local Dick's Sporting Goods. You know, we started 2012 and then I saw what it was doing for people and it was changing their lives to answer your question, right? Like it was not just something that,, oh, you know, fitness can kind of be a chore where I, I have to kind of show up and I have to do this thing. Well, I created this environment, which was a, I think a novel environment. I didn't know it at the time. I think a little bit of blind ignorance being young and dumb. I don't know if I would do it if I knew how hard it was now, but it was imperative to have those young years when I'm 20, 22, 23, 24, 25, sacrificing my goodwill to build this thing that was changing other people's lives. And one quick story will kind of outline what this does for people in their lives. And Morgan and I, after this, we looked at each other and we were like, we have to go. We have to take this thing big because this is way bigger than us. I love training. And so, I was out there with 150 members out in the parking lot on like a Saturday camp. This was back in 2013 before we had any brick and mortars. And I remember we were doing plyometrics, which is like jump training. We were doing jump squats followed by sprinting. And if you've ever done those two things in a combination, your legs feel like they have cement in them and it's hard to run. So ladies were starting to fall down as they were taking off to run. And what happened next, like, blew my mind. The, those that were kind of in the front of the line, able to do the, the exercise, they noticed that was happening. They started running back and they started grabbing women who they didn't really know that well, picking them up and then dragging them across the finish line, almost like a 2-a-day football camp or something in the heat. And from that moment on,, I was like, this is special. We have to do this. Uh, I can't be the trainer anymore because if I'm the trainer, then I'm gonna cap us. Uh, Law of the Lid from John C. Maxwell was one of the first books I read. Law of the Lid. I was gonna cap us. I knew that what I and Morgan were creating in the parking lot with those 150 members was super special. I know it was much more like a team atmosphere, like the Giants, right? Like it was like a, culture of people that want each other to win. And that was completely missing in society. And then you sprinkle a child watch on that where moms can show up and they can bring their children there. Then it's worry-free. There's no more excuses outside of this is difficult. And we say good, because when you come here, you can do the hard things. You're going to be preparing yourself for what really matters, which is all the life outside of the 45 minutes. And so, yeah, it changed people's lives. It transformed people's lives. I just finished a 20-location Proud Tour where they told me They told me it changed their life. They showed me the scars from their attempts to kill themselves. They showed me the multiple attempts, and then they showed me where the tattoo, right? Where, and this is a real story, that they tattooed a burned bee over the top of one of their scars because wow, it was what stopped them from actually taking their own life. And this isn't just one story, this is many, many stories across the country. So to answer your question, that's why.

Yeah, that's incredible. You know, one of the— fitness by definition is moving, and one of your taglines in your whole life has been keep moving. Every time that you would get knocked down, Morgan would say, you know, you gotta keep moving, right?

Mm-hmm.

So, I mean, whatever direction you're going in, so let's say you're going in a direction where you're doing self-harm or you're just struggling, or maybe you can't find a job that you want to find, or you don't have the family support or whatever it is, like you're moving, but you're moving in a negative direction.. And fitness has the way to kind of get somebody's attention and put them into community, which I wanna talk about. Mm-hmm. And then get them moving in the right direction. Yeah. In their life. I mean, you know, bodies in motion tend to stay in motion. Bodies at rest tend to stay at rest. So if you really wanna break a habit or you wanna create a new pattern, the best thing you can do is just get up and start going, even if you don't know where you're going.

Yeah. Especially if you don't know where you're going. Like, that's the one. That's the one person I want to talk to is if you don't know where you're going, well then you need people around you that can help you. Yeah. And if you just have, here's the prerequisite, you need enough belief in yourself to get off the couch and to come in once. And if you can have enough belief in yourself to get off the couch and come in one time, as soon as you walk in the door by design, because we know how disencouraged most people are in the four walls of their home, we know that when you come in our four walls of Burn, the first thing you're gonna get is a big high five, a name, a smile, a hug. And no matter where you're at, you have to smile back, you know?

Right.

You ever tried to smile or laugh with somebody and like have them not laugh back? Like, it does— it's a contagious thing. High-fiving is something that, you know, could get monotonous if we just didn't explain the why behind it. It's the transference of energy. It's the one motion that you can do. Like, when we do this and we connect with each other, like, that means something. There's like a transference of energy that comes from me to you and You know, I teach people to hold the high five a little bit, right? And just squeeze it a little bit and let the, because you don't have to say anything to let that person know that you really care about them by squeezing their hand just a little bit. You know what I mean? And let, and letting them know rather than getting off it and being cold. So you're gonna get that experience right when you come in. And our trainers know, they know how to look for the disencouraged. They know how to look for the introverted. Mm-hmm. And they know how to look for the disenfranchised. And we know exactly what to do to bring those people into the fold, to wrap our arms around them as a community. And we You tell them on day 1, hey, you've never been to a place like this. You're not going to see it in day 1, but I want to see you tomorrow because we're going to help you change your life. And so we try to paint the vision for people when they come through and we try to connect them to fitness, this metaphor, this little thing that's like a dumbbell, right? It's insignificant really. But the significance comes in when I know you can do a 30-pound dumbbell and you're doing a 20. And I look at you and I say, Jeff, I know you can do 30. Do you trust me? And you're like, mm-mm, I don't know if I can. That little overcoming of yourself, that little emotional intelligence moment that you just created right there seems insignificant in the moment, but that's the, that's the level that a lot of people are at. They can't go conquer the world yet. They haven't, you know, the kind of the metaphor, you haven't cleaned your room yet, right? Until you clean your room, how can you clean the world up? So you've gotta be able to overcome yourself in moments where it's insignificant if you want to be able to step into the, boss's office and get a promotion, or leave the relationship that you're in that's toxic, or whatever it might be that we're scared of. We're building confidence in human beings at the gym. We're not selling memberships.

Well, doing hard things. Yeah, I think Tony Rob— like Joe Rogan and Tony Robbins, they say, if you— the first thing I do is a cold plunge in the morning. Yeah. And every day I look at that. Rogan's like, every day I say, I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. This just— there's no reason for me to do this today. I did it yesterday. And then he goes in and he does it. And that's— if that's the hardest thing you have to do, then everything else seems easy. And, you know, your workouts are hard. I've done 'em. I've come to your house and done 'em. I limped home at 6 in the morning after a workout in your attic.

You've done many, many up burn workouts. That's for sure. I've been to your house and your, and your weight room too.

So, and, and so, you know, that, that's an important thing. You know, you talk about when we first met and the, the thing that I was impressed with that made it a no-brainer for me, even at 25, cuz we were on similar journeys. I was just maybe a couple years ahead of you. On the franchise path and just, you know, just a little bit older, well, probably a lot older. But, you know, I asked you, I said, what is the business? And you didn't say it's this, it's that, it's the other thing. You said, I'm creating a fit boot camp for moms. So like, you knew from the beginning, like you already knew at 25 years old, like who your audience was. And in that statement, it told me everything about— and then you backed it up with— then you started to very specifically turn in the colors. Like, I can outfit this whole place. We can do the work. It's just going to have this mat on it, then all the equipment's going to be very low dollar. We'll do the painting. This is how it's going to— and you just started giving me the specifics, but it all kind of went to that.

This is—

we're building a fit boot camp for moms. So you had the vision, you had the energy, you had the experience. So to me, I mean, you can give me somebody that had a balance sheet, you know, or better financials or something like that. Give me the Devin Klein, give me the Morgan Klein. I don't even think you guys were We weren't—

she was Morgan Stevens.

Give me the Morgan Stevens, because you guys were already— you had all the energy. And I was like, there's no way these guys are going to let this thing fail. So for me, it was like it was a good tenant opportunity, even though it didn't necessarily look like it on paper. How has the community evolved? How important has it been to keep that community? Or as the brand has grown, you know, what have you augmented to it? What have you changed and what remains the same?

Well, I think the biggest vulnerability that we have to scale, the next stop is 1,000 locations. So doubling in size, which we're poised to do, we're ready to do it. We're staffed up internally ahead of the growth curve. I got a great C-suite team now, which, you know, I haven't always had. It's usually been, you know, my VPs and Morgan and I. And so we're starting to build like levels to the leadership game. And we feel like, I mean, our average our annual unit volumes are great. I mean, we're 750,000, which is, you know, top of the 1 or 2 in the boutique fitness industry. And, you know, all those numbers, they don't, it doesn't really mean anything because we don't fall in love with our business necessarily. We fall in love with members. And I think that's what you heard me saying early on is I'm designing this place not for me. I'm designing this place for the mom of 3 who, you know, whose idea of like fun is like pizza and cookies on a Saturday night and like, you know, in their life is revolved around bad habits or maybe unhealthy habits is a better way to put it.

Yep. No, normal habits.

Normal habits.

You know, I saw Gary Brecka last week at a conference and he said, and somebody asked that if you could just do one thing, one thing, what would it be? And he goes, easily, easy, stop eating ultra-processed foods.

Yeah.

If you're not gonna do anything else, you don't, the minerals, you know, if you take the right minerals, he says 81% of your diseases won't happen if you have the proper minerals and all of those things. But he goes, just stop eating ultra-processed foods.

Yeah.

But it's everywhere. That's why it's hard to get away from it.

It's hard to get it. Yeah. It's, it's, I mean, it's almost impossible, right? Yeah. I mean, we have to teach, we, we call it on the Burn Bootcamp podcast, we call it the, there's an episode called Protein Hunter. And what we're trying to, what we're trying to do is teach people out in the wild to like, understand what your options are for protein when it's available. Because if you can seek your protein out and you can get it from Whole Foods or the gas station or Starbucks or McDonald's, even McDonald's, like, you just— it's about, at the end of the day, it's about making right choices. I think we get very fancy in our society. Like, we think that, like, oh, everything is like, you know, we got to eat out, and when we eat out, it's got this menu. No, no, no. Every place that you eat out has a kitchen with everything you can need in it to eat healthy. It is 100% your decision. Does that make it an easy thing? No, it doesn't make it an easy thing, but what do you want, right? Do you want the, you know, the high chance of having this disease because you're not, you know, eating well, sleeping well, exercising, lift strength training and conditioning, you know, and eating whole food nutrition and eating protein. Do you, if you do those things, you're going to live, chances are, right? You're going to live probabilistically a much more healthy lifestyle. And so we just want to always keep members at our focus. We don't want to have like the inventors, excuse me, the inventors syndrome where it's like we fall in love with our invention and we make the invention for ourself. Right? Because if it's not, if it's, if there isn't a high utility for our members, what are we doing? Right. Right. So it's ChildWatch, it's focus meetings. We're coming out this fall with an addition to our app called My Plan that's going to really like put daily rituals in our hands to make it easier.. So I can just do my workout. That's one check mark that can release some endorphins for me. I can eat my 150 grams of protein and I can, it logs into all of our wearables and all of our apps and kind of aggregates all that information. 6 panels and you got to see it right there. So we're trying to break it down for people so that it's not, you know, you're not trying to, you know, take the whole house.

It's not complicated.

It's not complicated.

Yeah.

Trying to break it down.

Simplicity scales.

Yeah.

Every time.

Yeah, I think so. So yeah, how do we grow to 1,000? Locations? Well, two things. Stay in love with our members and listen to them and don't get in love with the business model. That's number one. Number two, be a family-owned company. Don't get too hot on people that want to give us money to grow. Right. And we don't need it. And yes, it's enticing and I think about it all the time, but that's where owner-founder discipline comes in. And, you know, one thing I know that you share as well is that, You know, the wealthiest people in the world, if that's, if that's your goal, um, you know, they have something in common. It's called equity. There's a reason, there's a reason everybody wants to buy your equity. And so as long as we keep our members up front, keep our equity so that we can make the decisions to keep our members up front, right? And that's never taken away from us, you know, and, uh, and continue just to focus on the fitness product itself, try to keep it very simple. See, simple is sophisticated to me. And operations at this point should be bo— boring and slow and, and not, and predictable and non-eventful with pops of excitement and things like that. Like the Marshmello partnership and the Kevin Hart partnership. Yeah. But it doesn't fundamentally change the way we are acquiring, selling, and closing members. What our fitness product is, what our products and service ecosystem is to help serve mom.

Talk a little bit about the universe of products and, and services and brands that you've brought in either in partnership or that you've launched yourself?

Yeah, I would love to. I think one, I'll start here. So in 2023, we, we built the Burn Bootcamp app, which got off of Mindbody, which is still our point of sale system. And, you know, we partnered with Snowflake. We have an operational data store, and now all of our applications run out of the operational data store. Well, in 2023,, you know, it was post-COVID. So for the 2 years, 3 years while we were flattening the curve, all of our gyms were shut down. So the supply of open doors went away. Well, guess what? Supply demand still exists. So the demand just reallocated to digital. And as you know, we've had a studio here in Huntersville, North Carolina for probably long before. That was like one of my stupid entrepreneurial investments. I spent like a quarter million dollars on a studio when I didn't have the money and when we didn't need it. However, when we needed it, it was there. And, uh, we instantly, when COVID shut us down, we instantly pivoted. My team slept in the studio all week. By that Monday morning, it was like a Friday or something. But that Monday morning, we were streaming live to 50,000 people concurrently. And, um, I was the trainer on that. And I remember being like, hey guys, how many people we have on there? Like 50,000. I'm like, 50? That's it? No, 50,000. I have a face went white and I'm like, oh my gosh, don't screw this up. But we didn't and we nailed it and we did so good. We grew 12% through that time and our next closest competitor was down 16%. Do the math on that. And so we met members where they were. Our philosophy's tried, tried and true. It's tested. So that was the big invention. This was burn on demand. And now in 2023, because of COVID when we all came back, we reopened our doors, we had this momentum. And so we just put, We put the burn-on-demand platform that we were using to keep our memberships and, uh, we just added that as a $9.99 add-on to our members. Okay. Simultaneously, uh, what we did with, for our franchise partners is, you know, I, I think everybody on the pod here, uh, that's been an audience member of yours understands franchising to some degree. So I'll, I'll assume that. So the territory that we sold our franchise partners, the physical territory now also came because of our ODS with a digital territory. I looked at GNC, you know, GNC? Yeah. Uh, sup, and they did franchising very bad. And so I looked at a story of like what not to do, although I respect the brand. They went over the top of their franchisees and they sold the supplements over the top of them in their territory. Right. And it ruined their franchising business. They recovered and they've, they pivoted, whatever. But we're a franchisor, Jeff, you taught me that, right? Be a franchisor. Right. We're not a nutrition company. That's part of the ecosystem, Burn Nutrition. We're not an active company, Burn Active. We're not an on-demand digital company. Burn On Demand. We have a Kids Camp pilot here in Lake Norman, which will be our second franchise that we're really excited about.

Okay. Just kids.

Just kids. Same exact thing. Mini version for kids. Kids Camp by Burn Bootcamp. We have our Afterburn smoothie bars that are going in. Burn Media Co., which you've been a part of for a long time and really helped us grow that business. And what else am I missing? There's 8 of them total. Maybe I missed— maybe I missed—

what? Burn Active too.

So Burn Active is what I'm wearing now. Okay. Cool. This hat right here is a piece of Burn Active. We did a partnership with Nick Foles, Super Bowl-winning quarterback for the Philadelphia Eagles, his partner and buddy Pat O'Donnell, 12-year punter, Bears, Chicago Bears Hall of Fame. And Nick was actually the first Burn Bro at Costa Mesa, California. And when we were building our Brand Champion program, which Kevin Hart is a part of, Marshmello's a part of, Nick and Pat are also, and their wives Shelby and Tori are also a part of the Brand Champion program.. And, you know, we did, we did a partnership with him.

Nice.

Yeah.

So, so you got clothes, supplements, supplements on demand, on demand. You've got, yep.

Media.

Yeah. Media.

Smoothie bar, the kids camp. Yep.

And then any, any nutrition supplements.

So yes. Yeah. So Burn Nutrition is a business. Yeah. So Burn Nutrition do about $25 or $30 million in top line this year. And that business is doing very well for us. It is a fitness-specific We don't wanna be everything to everybody. Right. We wanted to, we, when we make the product and service ecosystem, going back to, you know, how clearly I knew who we were serving when we first started. Right. We were standing in 311 Gilead Road at the building you rented me. And as I'm articulating like who we are and what we serve, it's always been that member-first mindset, right? Yeah. It's always been child watches here. And like, I don't care how much it costs. That's what moms need. Like, I don't care how much it costs operationally for us to run it. That's what moms need. And we're gonna give it to them for free. Right. Well, they're all so busy and they got grab and go and they all think that we all think we can get enough protein and we all think we can meal prep full-time. Can we? Like, I don't know about your experience, but mine is, I'm sure ours is very similar. Like, no, we can't because life is too busy, right? Especially as entrepreneurs to be like 100% with your nutrition all the time. So we were building it around the actual workout. Yeah. I didn't want to go like the, I love Symbiotica, shout out to Symbiotica if you don't know of that brand. They're micronutrient packets and they do it the best in the world. And you rip open the packet and you eat the micronutrient and they do vitamins really well. We do pre-workout, during workout, post-workout. And so it's protein supplements, recovery supplements, um, caffeine supplements to help us maximize the workout, everything around it. Yeah. But doing really well. The ecosystem is, is great. The app has been, uh, one of our best inventions because it's like the platform where our vendors meet our HQ that meet our franchise partners that meet our members. Members. Yeah. And wow, we have, um, we have a lot of innovation. Clothing, they can order their product through there, and it hits the franchise partners' P&Ls. Yeah, right. Because a nod to like what we're a franchisor, we don't want to come over the top, right? We'll take the royalty to support this. So it's kind of like you sell it, um, we'll support it, and then together we'll innovate it.

Right. So it's Burn Nutrition products are the ones that are going through the studios to the members.

Yep. Yep. Either, yeah, either through, either through the gyms or through online.

Right.

Either way, either way, you know, our franchise LLCs are getting credit for that.

That's great. Yep.

That's top and bottom line. Not just like a revenue share there. It's underwritable revenue they can take into a bank. Nice.

Yeah. The brand champion program.

Mm-hmm.

When somebody, when you sign somebody up, you've got some big names in there. What do you expect from them?

It, well, it depends. And so I think if anybody's thinking for their business about, um, an influencer program or something like that, yeah. Well, here's why you would do it is because You see paid media dollars slowing down. You see organic traction, uh, hitting a plateau and you need to answer the question more brand awareness without private equity. 'Cause private equity can get you plenty of brand awareness. Why? Because the financial institutions are all reporting where, right? They're going right to the private equity firms that have their hands on everything to make their job easier. Right. I think, and I don't mean to project this onto everybody, but I think largely journalists, even though some of them are probably super very hardworking, a lot of them are pretty lazy. They want to go right to the source where it can tell them a lot about everything rather than find the actual stories. We have an actual story, right? Where two founders got married, started a business out of, when they were 24 out of a parking lot with $600 to their name, bootstrapped it, have no private equity, did it with themselves and their franchisees with the help of my dog, Jeff Dudan. Let's go., and, and grew it to a 500, uh, uh, location, you know, half a billion dollar empire and growing and no signs of slowing down in 10 years. Right. That's a story. And, and we're not getting a lot of that coverage. And so, because we don't have any of the financial institutions that financially incentivize to be able to talk about the us when the journalists come to them. Right. At least that's my theory. I don't know. I don't know what you think about that. Um, but my next best option was to say, well, we need eyeballs. How do you get eyeballs?

Right.

Trust. Okay. Where's trust? Kevin Hart has a lot of trust.

Yeah.

He likes the brand. He loves the brand. Yeah. We sat down, we sat down with him 2 years ago in Vegas, um, before anybody even knew it. And he just said, hey, I love this brand because I energetically, I'm in a place in my life right now where I want to surround myself with things I'm excited about. Genuinely, I have enough deals. You know, my, I could put my name, image, and likeness on anything. And he's like really wanting to, um, you know, in his, in his mid-forties, lean into that, you know, family side and expose that more of himself. And, and so this was a great opportunity for him to do that. And so, yeah. And so now him and Marshmello, Nick Bowles, we have, uh, Missy Franklin, 5-time Olympic gold medalist, has been in our brand champion program. We went that direction. We were gonna go brand champions. And the way we did that was strategic. There's 3 levels. Level 1 is Kevin Marshmallow, and there's one other question mark for a reserved person. We've got some things in the works, but Morgan would kill me if I said it on air. Number 2 is that kind of national, you know, maybe it isn't a long-term thing, maybe it's a short-term thing, maybe it's a podcast, maybe it's an event appearance in the gym, maybe it's a more one-off, not as tied long-term. Kevin Marshmallow and brand champion number 3 at level 1 have a gym. So they'll both own and operate a franchise. They're franchise partners out in Los Angeles County where we're trying to build. They own a little bit of parent equity. And then we have a deal with them on our national brand fund where in exchange for their name, image, likeness, and some social posting and stuff like that, they'll, they'll have a little fraction of that piece. So that deal. Yeah. And then sponsorships. And then finally, the last level I think is probably the most powerful level for us. We're building this right now. And that's the affiliate program. You know, you know, First Form? No. The supplement company First Form, Andy Frisilla, the Frisilla brothers that did First Form. They have like, if you want to look at affiliate programs that do it really well, it's First Form, Symbiotica, and then probably Starbucks's new one that, that, okay. And we're going to do this in the fitness industry where you bring your employees, you bring your trainers into the affiliate program so that, that third level will be members. Hyperlocal members that are influencers, mom bloggers, things like that. And actually our trainers, which I think will be really novel. So yeah, those 3 layers is our brand champion program and kind of like the Lululemon.

If you were a trainer, they'd have you come in and, and be an affiliate.

Yeah. Yes. Yes. Very similar to that. Yeah. Except for you're now an affiliate of like the parent company of Burn Brands.

Okay.

Rather than you're, cause you're already representing your location, your gym at the location level. Got it., and it's a way for us to also keep talent. One big issue that we have in our organization, right? Talent density.

Yeah.

And, and, and how long can we keep good talent? Well, leadership is the best way to keep good talent, as you know. But then, you know, what's another way? Well, incentives. Let's, let's come up with some novel, unique ways to keep trainers who have those touchpoints with all of our members. Let's find ways to rope them into the brand more.

You mentioned family. And that, you know, Kevin wanted to be doing things that are more family oriented, I guess. Talk to me about how it's been raising your kids as an entrepreneur, how it's been with Morgan. You know, what are some of the biggest differences between maybe how you grew up and how they grew up and how do you deal with that? Because I'm sure that you have an opinion about hard work. And about, you know, not, not spoiling people and things like that. But now, now, you know, you, you have means and you're flying on the plane and you're, and you're going to all these places and you're in partnership with great people. How do you keep the kids centered? What's been your philosophy? And then what's an advantage or what's a disadvantage for the kids?

Man, that's something that's on my mind every day. If you have advice for me, I'd, I'd, I'd be happy to take it. You've built an amazing business and an amazing family and Your children are all amazing. Like Zach is such a sharp guy. Like I'm just, I love him to death. And obviously, you know, I've been around your family before and you're somebody that is, I think, a rare breed where it's able to keep it together on the family side and also keep it together on the business side. It's a hard thing to do. It's like extremely difficult. I think a lot of people underestimate how hard it actually is. And, you know, for me, my formula was basically, Success leaves clues, little Tony Robbins nod there. Yeah. And looking at your example, looking at other people's example that I want to follow, you know, fathers that were doing it big, but also keeping their family focused in first. And, you know, I started, uh, uh, getting lost in it a little bit, I think there for a while. Okay.

Yeah.

Uh, worshiping growth, worshiping success, worshiping— not, I never got kind of douchebaggy with it, right? It didn't like, that's not my personality, but just like, stressing out too much if like little things didn't line up. When, you know, what's really important is that my family is breathing and they're happy and we're healthy and we're all together. And I just found myself worshiping. I think it's, you know, cared about it, cared about it, cared about business. Oh, now it's really important. It's one of the most important things in my life. Oh, wait a second. I just woke up after 5 years and this is the most important thing in my life. And if it's not going well, then I have discontent. Ooh, I don't know if I want to be that guy. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. I don't know if I want to let my material success determine my ultimate, uh, uh, satisfaction in life.

Did you realize it or did somebody point it out?

I realized it myself. Okay. Yeah. 'Cause I started drinking too much and I never was an alcoholic. Right. Don't get me wrong. Like, I don't want to portray that and I had it under control, but I started feeling that you ever heard the Bill Burr joke? Around the back of the dumpster. I don't know if I should say it. Okay.

Oh, go for it.

Okay. Well, he's like, am I allowed to swear on this podcast? Okay.

Well, absolutely.

All right, good. Well, Bill Burr has a hilarious joke and it's a good metaphor. And he was like, yeah, I was like, you know, just on my couch, like having some whiskeys and I didn't really, you know, think too much of it. And then I had this vision around and I wasn't doing it yet, but I could see myself around the dumpster for a whiskey. And I was like, he was like, I don't, that scared me. And I don't want to be that guy. That's like, you know, giving up is giving up your value, giving up your values as a human to give into something. And like I learned, and I've always kind of been self-taught. So this is nothing new to me is, I'm taking context clues. Don't get me wrong. It's not like I was sat in a room and like learn this myself. It's like, no, I'm constantly looking, watching, observing, and then coming to my own conclusions on, Who do I want to be? What father do I want to be? And what ultimately broke it for me, Jeff, was that I had, I had completely like 180'd in a contrast, like gone the exact opposite direction from my father who was in and out of prison, jail, um, 50 domestic charges by the time I was 18, criminal charges in the household, my mom, my father breaking and entering, you name it, man. It was violent. It was chaotic. It was, I, my mom had to take me away for 5 years and, you know, for 6 months we lived on the road and then started living out of different apartments and random houses as she was chasing waitress jobs and, and boyfriends and things like that. And, you know, I just had this complete, like, different contrast. And, um, you know, when I think about breaking the chain of that, it's like, and you're really not, you're lying to yourself if the one thing that held your father back from being the man who he was when he was sober, which is a kind, sweet, gentle, ambitious, like very similar to me.

You reconciled.

I reconciled. Well, I reconciled to reconcile with him a long time ago. I forgive him a long time ago and appreciate him for the things that he did. And my mom too, for the things they did and didn't do. And to, to move forward and tell and move forward with love for them. And so then it became, and it became, I have love for my father. I don't, I don't have any ill feelings about you anymore. I know who you are and what you're going to do. And I'm not going to bring my, I'll draw my line, but I love you for who you are. And I'm not going to try to change you and make you something you're not. I'm just going to tell you, you need help still, Dad. And I'm here to help you if you want. Unfortunately, he lost his life to that before I was able to help him. And he didn't want to take that advice. And so anyways, long story short here is that, okay, well, I'm still drinking, right? I'm doing it 3 times a week, 4 times a week, 5 times a week. Am I regretting the decisions that I make the night before? No, I'm not there, but I can see myself behind the dumpster. You know what I mean? Like, and I don't want to be that. And so I made the decision to stop drinking alcohol and I'm over a year and a half now. And it's been a game changer for me in my life and it's made me so much more clear. Yeah. And now, you know, I put, I put the higher power is the thing that I worship rather than ambition and membership count and things like that. And ironically, and for anybody listening who's going through maybe something like this, ironically, you know, what happens is your business starts growing more because you're in alignment with who you want to be. And back to the law of the lid. Yeah. It's like if you don't have anywhere to go and grow, then your business doesn't have anywhere to go and grow. And that was the natural next step for me.

And I also think it has just simply to do with focus and energy, you know, to, to do something great. Jerry, uh, Jerry Seinfeld has this, the greatest line. I've used it a thousand times. He said, a lack of focus will always lead to a lack of greatness. And whatever you say about drinking, it is, it immediately with the first drink changes your focus to other things. Mm-hmm.

You know, maybe not the dumpster thing, but you know, but it changes her, by the way, everybody, not me. Yeah.

Changes your, changes your focus to other things. And then it starts to steal a little bit of your time. And it's those, you know, the, the last 2% of excellence takes that, that little thing that you did that pushed it across. It's either, it's a, it's either a pass/fail, right? I mean, those, those little, little things that you do that if you were tired or hungover or weren't thinking about it in the middle of the night because you were thinking about something else or nothing at all. Yeah. You didn't get to. So like that's, it's no, when you create that kind of space and time and that mindshare.

Yeah.

That's, that's, allows. I don't know how many actors I've seen, they're like, you know, I, you know, if I wouldn't have quit drinking 15 years ago, none of this, none of it would've happened. None of this would've happened for me. I could tell you that. So, but you know, it's a personal choice for everybody.

Yeah. And I, and listen, I don't want to demonize it either. I think alcohol's awesome. And I, you know, I think it's, it has its time and place. Yeah. For me, it was just for me. It was, if you grew up the way I grew up and you saw somebody beating a bottle like that, and then, and then that was the source to everything else, a lot more deep stuff that cascaded and you look at it and you're like, you're kind of like that person in like very scary, similar ways. I just started seeing myself being more of my father than I wanted to be. And, um, I could, I had this, can I share something with you that's a little bit esoteric? Sure. So I had this extremely, can we look up esoteric? I had this extremely like, uh, uh, abstract, uh, thing that happened to me. And so I was running on the treadmill early in the morning during like the middle of my, I kicked all this off with a 7-day fast. Hardest thing I've ever done in my life.

Oh, wow.

It was extremely difficult, especially these first couple days. Sorry, my watch is going off. I'll try to shut it off. The first couple days were super hard and during the middle of my fast, I was getting up and running in the morning for 20 minutes just to like get my day started the right way. I was just trying to get up. And man, I was running on the treadmill. About halfway through, I had this like heat wave, like this— not hot because I'm running, I'm like in shape, dude. It's like 10 minutes into a run, I'm good. But like an intense, like intrinsic spiritual heat wave that like came in and made my body super hot. And like I started looking, I looked down, I was all red and blotchy. And then I like— at my calf—

that's called a heart attack.

Yeah, I know, right? I know. I thought I was having one, dude. It was so weird. And so, my calves locked up. Now, this never happens to me. Like, burn boot camp workouts are extremely difficult. I'm conditioned. I'm not going to get seized up on like a 10-minute little halfway jog. And then, my upper legs and then like my entire lower half locked up. I had to get off the treadmill and like lay in the fetal position on the ground. And this is like what solidified for me. I don't know, Jeff, if this is God. I don't know if this is like I don't know if this is just like a vision, but what happened to me in that moment was that heat wave was like this energy from my dad. And all I could think about, and I swear this is a true story, for 10 minutes I could, I was weeping on the ground, like crying. I don't, I couldn't control it. I was like, stop being a wuss. What are you doing, right? Like, what is wrong with you? I thought I was having like a panic attack or something, but I wasn't. And, and I, and I had this experience where I saw myself beating my son Max over and over and over, like in these jump cut kind of like scenarios, like the same way my father would to me during like halfway through as I'm trying to break this habit of drinking and, you know, being in love with ambition. And it scared— it was so real. I knew, I knew it wasn't happening, but it was so real, almost like an out-of-body experience in a weird way. It must have been the higher power and my anatomy at the biology at the time, just being depleted that I forced myself to like get rid of all my needs.

Yeah.

Right. And like, it left me vulnerable and I was in a position to where I was faced with my dad and like his energy and this almost like, this is what your life is going to be like. If you don't, if you don't follow through with this, was it truth? Scared the shit out of me.

But was it true?

It was the true— it was like more true than you accessed the truth inside of you. It was more true than true. I can't explain it. It was like almost as if I was going down into the basement where he had been, where I was scared to go my whole life to confront that darkness. You know that feeling? Like, if you're—

it sounds like an ayahuasca or a DMT experience where people go and they come out changed forever. Because think about it, we are just pushing all of our crap just down deep into us that hurt us, that we never want to deal with. And then we're trying to get in the habit, get in the car, go to Starbucks, go to work, do the things, right? And you're never addressing these things. And it sounds like you were able to just with the fast and with the running, you know, just to break through and to access that stuff.

I think that's right.

Very powerful.

I think you hit it spot on. Yeah. And so it was a very powerful thing. It was more real than real. Yeah. And in that moment, I wasn't going into that week of fasting thinking I was gonna stop drinking. Oh, I know.

I wasn't, I wasn't, it wasn't a decision that I, so that was a connection that was made. Because you gave yourself the space to make it.

Yeah, I gave myself space to make it and it scared the living shit out of me, to be honest with you. And you know, I haven't shared that with anybody outside of Morgan and, and my older brother. But yeah, that was a—

well, both of our listeners appreciate you.

Well, yeah, it was a moment for me that like, you know, if you're waiting for your moment or you're a little bit confused or, you know, you're worshiping your business and, or you're worshiping like the relationship that you want or all these material superficial things, like as hard as it is to, prioritize and move that down the hierarchy, it will make you better because you'll become more clear. And then you're, you know, I realized how right John C. Maxwell was. Like, I am the lid. And if I don't grow and I don't have these experiences, our company's going to stall. Yeah. Right. And then the crest is going to come, then it's going to be time to sell it. And I don't want to do that. I want to be here for the long run. I want to be doing this when I'm like 60.

Starting with nothing, growing up with nothing, having scarcity, is that an advantage when you're making these hard decisions like not chasing ambition or you're facing something? Because at the end of the day, if you grow up with nothing, everything is progress, right? And you can tolerate less progress because you've made so much progress from zero to $500 million business. So, you know, if, if it's an advantage for you growing up with nothing to make you tough, resilient, to make, to give you the, make the right decisions, how do you, how do you think about that being a disadvantage for your kids?

And that's a, that's a really articulate question. And I think, I think about it two ways. First of all, I have to confront the math, right? People that come from situations like I come from, no matter how, like, And you know, it just doesn't happen very often. And I, and I have to acknowledge that I'm the 0.00000001% that was able to come from my situation and, and, and be where I'm at today. So let's just, let's just call it like coming from that situation and then just making it out to be, to live a normal life and not follow that pathway. You don't have to build a $500 million business in 10 years from nothing. Like I think I understand how rare that is. But like, to me it's like you just want to come out and, and, and, and constantly go away from the direction in which your parents went. Still such a hard thing to do. 'Cause you're the epigenetic influence on, on, on, on who you are as a human as you grow up. It's like what some psychologists will say, it's like 50% of who you are.

Pain's the greatest motivator. We're running away from the things that we hated the most.

Right. And so I think that's definitely. That's 100% accurate. Now, which direction do you run? Right. That's the question. Most people are going to run to the alcohol and the drugs that came from my situation because that's all they saw. Right. One thing I really appreciate about my father is he was one of the hardest working people I knew, whether he was just on a bender or not. Yeah. That dude's getting up at 6 AM. He's going to put his tool belt on. And if he has a job, he was an odd-end, unlicensed electrician for most of his career.

Okay.

And so he great relationships in the community.

Is that where burn came from?

No, no, no. You know, that came from like me just, oh, okay. And not being smart enough to call it something more, more intelligent. Just call it what it is, I guess, if you don't know what else to call it. But yeah, no, he was, he was an example of hard work and work ethic and, you know, I want to follow that and I want to acknowledge that, but I also want my children to understand and, and here's what I'll say about them. Is I just went on this Proud tour and I went to 20 cities and, um, you know, we'll pop out, we'll hit, we'll hit, you know, Alabama for a morning, we'll come back and we'll be in the office for a day and we'll hit, you know, Costa Mesa, California, Laguna Niguel, and San Diego for a day or two and then we'll come back. So we did 20 locations on the Proud tour. About half of those, I took my kids with me in rotation.

Okay.

Yep. And when, in, I don't, I don't talk to them one-on-three much about what happened to me as a child. We do when they ask. I like to talk to them through their lens of who they are in the, because they're 5, 8, uh, 6, 8, and 10 now. Yeah. And so when we're alone, I, we, when we're driving around, you know, random cities, that's one of our main topics of conversation. Hey, do you have any questions about where dad comes from? Where mom comes from, and they always do. And so I always try to feed them the context and the contrast between what we're doing now and what I was doing when I was a kid and why I make my, my two boys clean up the dog shit in the house every day. And when they complain about it every day, I don't care. And I remind them where I came from because they're going to do the dirty jobs. There's a reason my daughter's been taking out the dirty trash since she's been 4 years old and in the house. Because they're gonna do the dirty jobs when they're out on the road with me, you know, they're gonna be the servant in the room. They're gonna be the one they're, uh, expected to have respect for, uh, their, you know, their elders, they're expect all the, all the things, right? But, um, I'm, I'm letting them be curious, I think is real, is probably the, where I'll stop. I let them be curious. I'll tell 'em those story, let them ask questions. And, and then the situations I put them in to feel the pain, which it's not few and far between, it's daily and weekly. Uh, I, then I connect with them. I, the reason you're asking this question is because this is how daddy had it. This is the reason that you guys go out and you aren't going to live like that. So this is the reason when you ask me, can I skip the dog poop for the day? I'm like, absolutely not. 100% not. So yeah, my biggest fear is that they grow up. Not realizing that.

Many couples start a business together, and then if the business grows and becomes successful and then you have children, typically one of the parents will take the business, the other one will take the family, and one will kind of move into the background.

Mm-hmm.

Hasn't been the way with you and Morgan. Morgan, I think now is the CEO.

Yeah.

Yeah. She's the CEO of Burn. Uh, you obviously have 7 other businesses other than the franchise. Uh, and you know, you're clearly in a huge, huge role in doing these things. What has it been like? And was there ever any question that she would continue to maintain a, a big, big presence in the business?

Man, I have to say, 'cause some people, you know, that don't know us really well, um, you know, might not realize, uh, how like that Morgan was the CEO from the very jump. And if you know me, you realize I'm not this, I'm not a, I'm not a—

she's powerful.

She's very smart.

Yeah.

Like she's very smart and, um, very smart in a different way than I am.

Mm-hmm.

I'm, I have a lot of self-belief and a lot of creativity, trait openness, pretty extroverted. I think in pictures and, you know, storyboards and deep. She thinks in KPIs and chronological number orientation, linear, perfect. Right.

If I'm a marriage counselor, try to put those two things together.

Well, we had, we were at odds for a long time because we both were doing a little bit of both. Uh, we actually read a book called Rocket Fuel. I don't know if you've ever heard. Have you heard Rocket Fuel? Yeah.

Gino Wickman. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, love that book by the way. And I love Gino Wickman and all they do. Um, Mark Winters is his partner in the EOS platform. So we, BOS, Burnt Operating System, is EOS basically burnified and enterprised up a little bit. Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, to make it not so much for a small business, for more of an enterprise, but still same concepts. And, uh, yeah, you know, I knew early on I wasn't gonna be a trainer because we had ambition to grow. And then I, once I was the CEO, I knew that this wasn't gonna be my destiny. In 2022, I helped get us through COVID. I helped, uh, build the Burn operating system. And after I built that with my team and with Morgan, me having the largest hand in that, that was the kind of mechanism that we were gonna hand to her. And then she was gonna go Now that we had the system, she was gonna then integrate the system and oh my goodness, Jeff, like since 2023, you should see our numbers. They're insane.

I mean, she set you free too.

Set me free. I'm so happy. Like I was getting, I wasn't unhappy. I was just, 'cause I'm a, some motor, I'm a, I'm a motor. I'll just go, go, go, go, go. And I have high energy units. I'll bowl through anything. I don't care. But having to pay attention to detail is like putting your hands around my throat and suffocating me a little bit. Yeah. Just giving me enough oxygen to breathe. Yeah. When you give me like a, you know, a problem to solve and no solution to it, I'm like a kid in a candy store with like, right. You know, I got all the oxygen I could ever need. So she, Morgan is, uh, before she was a kid, became the CEO of Burn. Before she joined Burn, she was on the fast track at Kellogg's. Even not a lot of people know this. She was a senior financial analyst at like 22. Yeah. Which is, that's like a 32-year-old job, 35-year-old job at Kellogg's. She was crushing at 22. So she was already on a ladder., you know, it's corporate America. Kellogg's a big $17, $20 billion company. So she wasn't gonna go be the CEO in like 3 years. But as soon as we got married, the hardest part of her life was having to tell her family, her grandfather, especially 'cause her father died when she was 5. So her grandfather was really her father figure growing up. Yeah. In a tragic car accident. And, um, and so he worked at Kellogg's, so that was a big family dream for her to go be an executive at Kellogg's was her goal., right? And so to pivot, you know, back, remember the parking lot days to set all of that down, which you've been working on since you were 17 as an intern, to then join me in a parking lot without like any brick and mortar was a pretty bold move on her part. But she's always believed in me. I believe myself a little bit. She was that kind of multiplier of belief. That's all I needed. And, uh, you know, I just reciprocated when it was time and she has been killing it ever since. I don't, I don't do anything on a day-to-day business. I don't do anything. She has it all. If she, if I have something, it goes to her. It doesn't go to anybody else.

Okay.

It's either her or Leslie, my assistant. All roads go through her. That's our relationship. And if I want to go solve a problem over here, hey, Morg, just let you know, permission to solve this problem with this teammate over here. So you know about it. That's the extent of our business. And then I've been able to create what we call the VPP model for me, which is the vision and, and it's the people and it's the process. And vision is a blue book that's a 40-page document that explains the next 3 years, 5 years of the business, where we're going so that I can make my job easier. And I don't have to explain the vision 500 times a year to everybody. Yeah. Give it to all stakeholders. You know, our VPs that were like from Denny's and from, I've started really recruiting these franchise executives since probably we last talked. They've been like, oh my goodness, I wish I would've had this in my other organizations that I've been part of. So clear, right? I had the time to make it clear. Yeah. My first job was to give the vision. Um, and then, and then, uh, the Burn Operating System was the process. And then people, and this was the last one. I think the biggest gap for us to get from where we are to where we want to be is how do you scale community? If I'm not going to be F45 and put, screens on the wall, because that was their answer to scale. I gotta scale through cultural accountability.

Yeah.

Which is like, what the hell is that? Right? Well, that's where everyone has a championship mindset and standard, and the culture perpetuates the standard, not the founders. Where the culture has the language. And we could talk about some of this language if you want to, but the culture has the language carries the business forward. The stewardship idea, right? Can't be, you, you can't have a stewardship idea as a founder if you don't have the language in which the stewardship sits on top of, or you get fractured communication. And the only way to break up a community is fractured comms.

Right.

Right. Communication.

Right.

Right. That thing that brings the community together. Right. So if I'm running in 5 different directions, with our people philosophy. We have people operations. We know how to hire, we know how to onboard, we know how to fire. We know get it, want it, capacity to do it from the EOS. We know people analyzer, we know accountability chart, all the EOS tools. This is people philosophy, which you can measure people operations, but you can't measure people philosophy, right? You can't because it's how we act. It's how we treat each other. How do you measure how we treat each other? Maybe a net promoter score or something stupid like that, but like how useful are those things really? So that's where I'm at now is in order to get us to the next level is gonna be a, it's gonna be a, a 2-year bout with, with me and my education team to get out into the community. It's gonna start this week actually at Summit when I get up on our, uh, general session stage and talk about championship culture and what the Championship Seven is and largely how, like, you probably run your businesses, right? Just our own language around it. Ultimate accountability, ultimate freedom, ultimate responsibility. Hiring adults that all believe in one mission. They will hold themselves more accountable to that mission than anybody else will hold them accountable. And, and they're going to do their part when no one's watching. And because of that, the freedom that's reciprocated with that accountability to take your vacations, do your thing. We're not going to micromanage you, look over your shoulder, hire people that need any of that stuff anymore. We drew a big line in November 2025 at HQ. No more mediocrity. No more. Because if we are gonna sit here and say we're gonna go to 1,000 locations, we're gonna be best in, in our class. Well, we better back that up, right? We better back it up or else everyone's gonna look at me as the founder and as the visionary and say, hey buddy, like a coach on a baseball team, you're shortstop's over here, right? You're football guy. So like, hey, Your center, he's not putting your quarterback's hands right. The percentage of snaps is not good enough. You gotta change the center out, coach. We fumbling too much. You're leaving this guy in.

Yeah.

You know, and they're gonna start looking at you as the coach not making the decision. So everyone is turning their heads to me like, Devin, where's this mediocrity coming from? I thought you said, I thought you said this is what you promised us. This is where we're at now though.

Yeah.

And so I had to pull up and say, am I willing to disrupt ourselves even though everything is going really well? Am I able, am I willing to disrupt ourselves knowing that we have to, right, in order to get to the next level? Yeah. It's hard thing.

So it, championship culture would lead to say you need a championship team. So are there clear winners or losers as you redefine it around a championship culture? Then is it clear to see who the winners are and who the losers are?

A hundred percent. Right. And, and I wanna start by saying this. Like valuing all human beings, people first as a center of my being. I love humans. I love people. I've been around like the celebrity world lately, and I'm not speaking about Kevin or Marshmello, but I've been around that world lately, and that's not the case, right? Like it's craft over people for most, mostly everywhere. And so for me, like I'm the CEO, I'm the visionary, Morgan's the CEO that we want, we're going to be with We're gonna be with our people. Um, so championship culture has to draw a line and it has to draw a big thick line, and there can be no, there can be no gray area between high performance and mediocrity. There's a long way to spell that out. You have 10 traits we have, 10 core values that we have. I could go through that. You can guess what they are, but the real simplification to scale this is who would I fight for? Because who, who, if somebody told me they were leaving, Would I fight for them? Right. And if I would fight for them, they go on my roster. If I say, mm, I'm glad they're leaving, then why are they there in the first place? You gotta value humans, but you do not have to value the profession. So if you walk around all day, you don't value somebody who is mediocre at their profession, not at their personal life, but they're, they're mediocre in this environment. You cannot let that person stay on board on the team or else the other high performers are gonna leave. Yeah.

There's a great little HR thing somebody shared with me. It says out of 10 people who tell you that they're leaving, 7 of 'em or 6 of 'em, you're, you're glad. You're like, thank God they, they saved me the problem of doing it. I should have let that person go a long time ago. 3, you're indifferent. You're like, this is gonna be inconvenient, but it's a chance to upgrade. And then 1 of the people you wanna save, right? 1 of the people you'd fight for.

Mm-hmm. Isn't that the same concept I'm looking at?

Yeah. And, and if, if that's your organization, then, and you haven't gone through it, then you probably have mediocrity everywhere. You're fighting complacency everywhere in the organization.

Do you believe that, uh, that if you leave mediocrity in, it's either eventually mediocrity or nothing? Because if the mediocrity spreads and the high performers will leave, and then all of a sudden you wake up and you've got a team full of people who mean well but don't do well.

Well then, yes, exactly. And then what happens is the crisis will uncover it because eventually mediocrity means you're gonna, you're losing, right? You're losing in sales, you're losing here, you're losing in culture, you're losing with your franchisees. And eventually what happens, a crisis will come up and then you're gonna look at it and say, well, it was easy to blame these people, but I knew it all along and I didn't get.

And, and yeah. And, and also they did, here's where I, here's where I think it really flips for my team when I say this to them. It's the value thing. You, you value the human being, right? You can't let them walk around here feeling unworthy.

Right.

That you're not doing them a service.

Right.

Right. So like, if I, if you need motivation to let somebody go, you have, you have handcuffs on this person. If, if you're not happy with them, guess what?

Let 'em free.

They're not happy with you either. And, and you, right. And the, and you gotta let 'em free. Yeah. They know, they know, they know they're getting treated different than other people. They know that, right? You know what I mean?

So, so championship culture is something you're bringing to conference this week. You've got how many people showing up at, at Burn?

Yeah.

What do you call your conference?

It's called Summit.

Yeah.

Summit 2026. This will be the 11th, 11th year that we've done it. We did a first year franchising when there was like 25 of us in Wilmington and we had no AV budget and we just did everything like off a PowerPoint screen and a, you know, computer speakers and projector. And, but we did it and now we're taking over the Union Station Hotel. We bought the whole thing out. It's in St. Louis, an amazing market for us. Shout out to Chelsea and, and Ted Theodoropoulos who are, are, uh, owning the St. Louis market for Burn and we wanted to show them some love. Union Station's a great hotel. Um, we got a Great Gatsby kind of theme going on and yeah, I'm gonna get up on stage for general session and talk about the Championship Seven, that high performing players is number one. You can have a, you can be one of, it starts like this, you can be one of three teams, championship teams. You can be a championship team that wins for a single season, which usually means that you have a talented player. Who, and they rode you all the way there. Yeah. And as soon as they leave, you're going right back to mediocrity. You could have a back-to-back team where you might get the big three, you might get those three stars that come in, they multiply and they might go back to back before they break up and go elsewhere. Or you have a championship dynasty. You have the LA Dodgers, you have the New England Patriots, you have Netflix, you have Amazon where the cultural expectations, regardless of who is in the seat, the, the, the actual culture, the cultural expectations are bigger than the seat itself.

Oh, I like it.

You know what I mean? And so like, oh, kind of like the office of the president is bigger than the incumbent president, right? The Oval Office is, you know, that's what we cherish. We don't necessarily cherish the president who's in, uh, sitting in that seat more than the office itself. And that's what a championship dynasty is. That's what America is, right? Yeah. So like, that's what we are. And, um, and so yeah, you have to teach those principles and it has to be people philosophy. And so you go into 7 principles, high performing players. I don't care how great of a coach you are. Give me a basketball team with 5 starting scrubs and we're not winning. Yeah. Right. So I need high-performing players. Okay. To be a dynasty, you need to have one superstar at least.

Right.

You have to have a Tom Brady. You have to have a Shohei Ohtani. Right. And when you give, have you, do you know Dr. Benjamin Hardy?

Yes. Okay.

So Science of Scaling is the next one.

Yeah.

I love this. You've mentioned a couple things around goal setting. Impossible goals. I love his idea of impossible goals where like, hey, increase, you know, 10x the goal in half the time. But it's not saying you have to do that. It's asking yourself the question, what if we 10x the goal in half the time? What would we have to do? And that usually eliminates all the peripheral kind of anti-Pareto principle, 80/20 things that you are peripheral. They're edge stuff. It's movement for progress, but that's not really what's going to move the needle for you. Right. What's going to move the needle is these 2 things and only these 2 things. If I wanna go to 10,000 locations as a franchise, like who the hell am I to say that I could go build 10,000 locations? Well, A, CrossFit's done it, Curves has done it. And so there's, there's a little bit of prerequisite there. But you know, I gotta have a, I gotta have like a high level of conviction and a high level of belief and a little bit of humility to be like, hey, it probably, probability is that we won't do that, but there is a percentage that we can. Who believes this? Right, right. Who believes this? Those are usually your high-performing players. So high-performing players love to get those impossible goals that Dr. Benjamin Hardy made famous. I think Dan Sullivan made those famous too.

Yep.

I love that. You don't have the New England Patriots don't say, hey, let's go win a game. They're like, hey, how do we win every Super Bowl for the next decade? Right. That's their question. So what question are you setting? Then that sets the floor.

Yeah.

For what you can do. So if I want to go to 10,000 units, Well, there's pretty much two things we have to have, right? You taught me number one, validation. Mm-hmm. When you remember when you taught me on a whiteboard, you sat me down for 3 hours. You didn't ask me to pay for your time. You, you, you schooled me on Franchising 101 and it was validation. We get validation. You taught me through, uh, AUVs. Yeah. Our AUVs are world-class now, buddy. Let's go. Thank you. Now what we want to do is, uh, is, um, use, use those world-class AUVs to reinforce the potential to go to 10,000 and make those high-performing players excited about the possible goal. Eliminates everything besides AUVs and the need to have master franchise agreements internationally.

Right.

If we don't do those two things, we're probably never going to 10,000 units. So it takes the pool of possible, uh, activity that you could spend your time on and eliminates it to a couple things.

You say you would use masters to go international? You'd have to. Yep.

Basically you have to. If I wanted to do it in 10, uh, 10x and half the time, you have to. Yeah. Or else I would be long dead by the time we were able to do it onesie-twosie. We could do it that way. It'd just be very hard. Um, let's see. And then the third thing, okay, then great leadership. And, and then the fourth thing is an accountable environment. Yeah. Right. And then you have to have aligned incentives cuz the high performing players wanna be paid the most. They wanna be paid the best. And so everything I'm doing right now is eliminating mediocrity to try to get top of band salary for the high performing players. Yeah. And then player development. And between those 7 things, we can go into in depth on any one of those. But basically to complete this VPP idea, this triangle, I've written a 40-page document that explains championship culture through the lens of these 7 things. And this year at Summit, it will almost be like me giving up the brand to the system officially. I did kind of unofficially did that a while ago, but giving it up to them because it's as far as I can take it now.. Yeah.

They have to do it for, they, they have to feel autonomy to take ownership.

Yeah. I can't go to 10,000 alone. I need that. I, yeah, I have to have, if I lost, put it this way, if I lost my top 50 franchise partners, we are screwed as a brand. Right.

If I lost my top 50 performers, I, yeah, because they own a lot of multiples.

Oh, we're screwed in every, and then mediocrity overruns and then we go down. I'm not saying that there's, but there is mediocrity in every system and we're trying to, radars of it. Yeah.

We're heading towards the end. Yep. I, I do want to get your perspective on something, and it's a lot of what we've talked about, and it has to do a lot with people, but I really want to just touch on this health and wellness thing. And, you know, one of my, one of my biggest concerns with our society, such as it is today, is, is just people's mental health and people's ability to cope. And I think we're in for a rough patch, especially with AI, because you would grow up and everybody grows up and they're like, if I do these things, I'll be able to have a life, have a car, have a house, have a family if that's what I want to do. And things are moving so fast. And I think with social media, we've kind of been rewired to be a little bit less sacrificial, maybe a little less servant. And now we want these things. And, and now we have to have these things because that's how we're placing value on ourselves, right? What kind of car do I have? What kind of this? I've always been there, but it's— to me, it just seems like it's, it's gotten— the pool's gotten very shallow. You know, when I grew up, you know, I learned from all of my coaches, you know, that's primarily who I learned from is, you know, you sacrifice yourself, you do the hard job. You know, there's only one football, but it takes all 11 of us and everybody works as a unit. And, you know, if you don't and it's okay, right? Like, you— it's okay to sacrifice some— what you want for the greater good and those types of things. And I just don't— I don't hear that coming through in anything that I'm seeing anywhere in our politics, in our— in our television. I mean, you know, it's just not out there. So, so, so there's the, the mental side of it. But there's also things that are coming that are, that are helping people that want to be more productive and want to be more ambitious, things like peptides. Things like HRT, things like, you know, Gary Brecka, get a genetic methylation test, you know, take these salts. So you've got, you've got these physical things that you can do. You've got GLP-1s now. So maybe I can get results that I was seeking without having to do the work that it was taking before. So, I mean, if I was gonna, gonna throw that all in kind of a bucket and say, from when you started Burn and, you know, what tools you were able to deploy on people for their spiritual, mental, and physical health to today? Okay. How have you incorporated some of these things? Is all of that stuff just noise? And you know, when, and because you're in a way, you're probably competing a little bit with GLP-1s.

Definitely. I agree that definitely social media has kind of exacerbated mental health crises. But the same way we're talking about it now is the same way people were talking about radio and television and magazines and every, every multimedia, big multimedia change. It always happens this way.

Is it?

Yeah. But you know, I get it. Um, you know, but radio was also available to everybody. Yeah. Right. Do you remember when, uh, NWA came out back in the early '90s and the distribution, they were trying to shut them off from any distribution because they didn't want that narrative getting out into the world, well, there's just no cap on, there's no, there's no like the guardian to the narrative anymore. And so there's, to me, like the one change in this media evolution is that the, just the amount of opinions that are able to be out there and the, the natural propensity for humans to be mostly followers and, and, and need an example to follow. It gets very confusing. I feel like we have death by confusion more than anything else in fitness. And so then we just want to run right to what, you know, people are most convicted about. Oh well, when you're listening to people out there on social media and they have a strong conviction, the best question you should ask yourself is, why are they so convicted on that? Like, what is their— like, what's the reason behind this? I don't ever want to demonize things that can make us feel better. Right? Like people that demonize aspirin. I'm like, have you ever had inflammation in your elbow and that you couldn't move and you took aspirin and it went away? Yeah, you could, you could demonize anything. You could take too much water, you could die from water toxicity, right? So like too much of anything is possible. So like the argument doesn't hold a lot of weight to me. This is a, it's a mistake. It's, it's a, it's the short-term gratification. Burn has always been since day one in 2012, has always believed in the Universal Five. And I know you're tight with Gary, you like his stuff. I don't mind Gary's stuff. Bryan Johnson, the biohacker guy. To me, all this is just secular noise on top of the core fundamental 5 things that you must do if you want any of that stuff to work in the long run.

Okay.

I mean, how many cycles have we gone through, Jeff, of of GLP-1s. Think back every 10 years, there's a new form of GLP-1. Sure. I mean, it was, do you remember, what's the one I'm looking for? Thermogenics, Hydroxycut.

Yeah.

Yeah. And that was like crazy.

Yeah.

And everyone was just taking Hydroxycut and thermogenics to, right? Yeah.

Right.

Yeah. And like, oh, there was an under-the-counter drug, like a, I forget the name of it that Mark McGuire like took and got, Ban 4, I forget the name of it. It was like a GNC supplement you could get behind the counter at GNC, like a Fedra or something like that.

I forget the name.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Is that what it's called? The Fedra?

I think it was. Yeah.

Somebody in the audience. Something like that. Yeah. I forget the exact name. Forgive me. Somebody put in the comments what it was. I think it was something like that. But anyway, this is just the new version of that. Listen, I like to try everything. I tried some GOP-1, some peptides. It gave me like a heightened estrogen. But I'm somebody that didn't need it.

Yeah. Right.

Like I didn't need it. I'm, I'm well balanced. So when we are, when we are eating well, when we are strength training, which is hypertrophy, these are the 5 I'm talking about conditioning. Okay. Sleeping well and recovering, mobile mobility. So strength training, conditioning, sleeping, eating, and mobility. If you do those 5 well, which are all effort-based, right? Things that don't really cost you any money. Outside of— they really don't. Push-ups are free. You can stretch, that's for free. Your food costs you money, but you have to get food regardless, right? So this— there's a lot of these programs out there that are selling you some secular idea, like some, some bell and whistle on top of the base model vehicle. And you're not— you don't have the base model vehicle, how are you supposed to have yellow calipers on it yet? How are you supposed to have the extra exhaust intake yet? You don't even have the car running.

Right.

And so people are trying to go get on GLP-1s as a save-all. And I know people that have done really well on them and done what I think they're good for, which is a bridge, which is to get, excuse me, get you from like off the couch and feeling bad about yourself, give you a little bit of momentum and then get off. But I, and I've seen people be successful that way, few and far between. Most people want the overnight magic pill like we've always wanted, which There will be another GLP-1 in 2036.

Yeah.

This GLP-1 will be like, you know, whatever supplement today that's just normal that we always talk about and all of the side effects are revealed. All of that stuff is all coming out now. People that aren't doing it the right way, they're gonna lose their hair. They're gonna get skinny, but they're gonna eat their mu— they're gonna metabolize their muscle. They're gonna twist up their stomach. And so I'm not going to demonize anything, but I'm also not going to like praise and worship at GLP-1. Right. There is a, it's a simply as a tool. You need to have your foundational 5. That's what I don't think the internet does a good, a good job of is, um, you know, I wish more of these, I wish more of these companies would make you say, at least in the commercials, start to say like, hey, do these 5 things and then take this.

Right.

And you'll be good. Just at least that. But the reality is that GLP-1s are good. It's gonna, you know, it's, you're putting a bandaid over a bullet hole, put it that way. Yeah. You can keep putting band-aids on it, but eventually that bullet hole needs a suture. You need to go in, get the bullet out, suture it up to, to make it stop bleeding.

Yeah.

And, and we, if we could start with our nutrition, I'd start us there.

Yeah.

I'd start us there, especially if you're somebody that is a little bit scared of intense workouts.

Yeah. Take out processed food.

Yep. Take out processed food. Listen, I'll even go, I'll give you one less than that. Like I'll make it even easier. Go to your Chick-fil-A, but take one bun off one side of the sandwich and throw it out the window to the birds.

Yeah.

And eat the other side for now.

Yeah.

And if you just do that and you're somebody who's deconditioned and maybe you haven't worked out in a couple years, you're 20, 30 pounds overweight, you just make little tiny changes like that. That's significant enough. One thing I've noticed is we feel like we've gotta make huge life-altering changes to like get our health going in the right way.

Yeah. It's just like a 7-day fast.

Okay. 7-day fast. So that's, that for me, that for me was, I was in a place like mentally. So yeah, we can talk about that on a different day.

I got a great question. All right. And then I got 2 closing questions. All right. Mentally, spiritually, what's the most extreme thing you've ever done? Do you have one?

Oh yeah. The most extreme thing I've ever done, spiritually, so I can share a little bit about my personal spiritual journey. I grew up agnostic. My parents didn't have a religion. Just actually was looking in one of my dad's old— I moved homes here recently and I had a box that I hadn't seen in a while and saw one of my dad's old boxes. And he always went on the journey of like, basically go to prison for a little while, read the Bible a lot in prison, come out being like an evangelist and then slowly but surely go backward. And then repeat that cycle over and over. Right. And so, I watched this growing up and because of that, I thought like Christ and God were just bullshit, to be honest with you. I didn't think it was like, I thought it was some made-up fairy tale and story. And, you know, well, I won't save you the whole story, but I converted to Christianity shortly after that fast and largely was due to that spiritual experience and like it being more real than real. Um, and what I realized is that there's so many people out there that are worshiping something else that's material in their life and they haven't found something, whatever it is to them, that's bigger than themselves or bigger than anything here. And like, you know, not believing anything tends to be the reason from my observations why people get depressed. They don't believe in anything bigger than them. There's no hope of the future.. And, you know, I looked around and said, do I really want this to be my life? To be like, if this is my life, I've made it already.

Right.

What else is there to live for? Yeah. That follow that logic, right? Mm-hmm. That's why billionaires commit suicide sometimes.

All the time. And they, they're miserable.

Miserable. Yeah. Because they didn't, they never stopped to position the order of hierarchy in their life. And so, you know, for me, when I, when I converted into Christianity, I started reading the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John. I started realizing that's historical text.

And was that the Beatles?

I think so. Something like that. I think I'm missing one of them. I'm missing one of them. But yeah, I started reading it and I never read it before. And, you know, it's, it made a lot of sense to me. And so I think people need to find something to worship that's beyond, that's beyond themselves. There's nothing to worship, then you're the hierarchy. That's a scary thought. You're going to worship yourself. You know what that means? You're playing God. Right. Ooh.

And you're not.

That's a tough, that's a tough thing, pill to swallow. When I realized that myself, like, if I don't believe in something bigger than me, what I believe in is that I am God. And I'm like, oh gosh, that's the most egotistical, like, filthy thought I've ever had, you know? And so that's the fan— that's the direction I'm trying to lead my family in. Is, is, um, think for yourself, be int— intellectually honest about your life and where you're at and where you want to go.

I've got a curveball and a fastball.

I like them.

Uh, before we do that, tell people where you, where to get more information about you, what you've got going, you know, where to get in touch with you or what to look at.

Yeah. If you guys like long-form stuff, podcasts, the Burn Bootcamp Podcast, any platforms, we like YouTube. Uh, we do a lot of if not all of them are video. Devin.Klein on Instagram, burnbootcamp.com for any location. And that's usually the best 3 places to find us. If you're not near a Burn Bootcamp location, Burn On Demand as well. You just go to the App Store, download the Burn Bootcamp app. It'll give you like a little flow, a little process, and you can decide whether you'd like to visit a gym or work out with us online. We do all of our camps live Monday through Friday here, right down the road out of our— Yeah, this is the building you eventually sold to me. 3-11 Gilead Road. And our VP of Fitness, Matt Morris, has a team of trainers and members in there that we built a 20,000-person community online. Oh, wow.

So that's cool. Live.

Yeah, it's live. It's open. It's rocking. That's awesome. Yep. So that'd be the best place.

That's the $999, you said?

Mm-hmm. $999 for members, $2,999 if you're a non-member. Okay.

Well, they should just be a member.

Let's go. Yeah. Love it.

Be in person, be online.

That's right.

All right. Any, and is there anything else that you wanted to cover at all?

So I don't think so.

Okay.

Yeah.

No new books.

No.

Is there books coming out?

No, no, not right now. The last one did pretty good. Did you hear the results that we had from it? No. So the first one I wrote in August 2017, Stop Starting Over, did well on Amazon in the health and fitness category. I leveraged that to go to Hachette and Hachette is one of the big 5 publishers and we were able to do a book deal with them, a single book deal.. And, uh, yeah, we put a bunch of energy and effort behind it. This was 2024 and, uh, we wrote, uh, a branded book called Burn: The 5-Step Strategy to Inner and Outer Strength. And, uh, yeah, we were top 10 on, uh, USA Today. Wow. Yeah, we, it peaked at number 9 on USA Today, stayed there for like 4 or 5 weeks straight. And yeah, so I'm, I gotta get the book. Yeah, definitely. I'll, I'll bring you one. I got a bunch of 'em at the office. Don't order one. I'll bring you over. I'll have myself or somebody run over a bunch.

I don't wanna get ahead of myself, but would you, would you sign it?

Of course. Of course, Jeff. You're, listen, for those of you listening, Jeff and I go way back if you can't tell. And this is my homie. And, uh, I do any, dude, I'll do anything for you on any day. And I know that you'll do the same for me.

So 100%.

Yeah.

100%. I can't, I can't tell you how proud I am of you guys.

Thank you, man.

That's just, likewise. Likewise. You're inspiration.

You're an inspiration to me as well. I really mean that. You know that. And you know, I've told, I wrote, I wrote about that in the first book, probably the second one too. Uh, because it's a core part of our story and You know how you need people in your life that, oh, that'll believe in you a little bit and, uh, gotta have it, man. Keep doing what you're doing because I'm not the only one. You know, I happened to, uh, happen to be right here in your backyard and you were giving, you gave me your time. You didn't ask me to pay for it or expect anything else in return. And look where Burn is today. And I don't know, Jeff, to be honest with you, man, I don't, I think we'd still probably be doing pretty good, but I don't know if we'd be as far along as we are without your belief early on. It gave me a lot of confidence as a young man, having somebody who had been there, done that before, look at me and say, dude, you fucking got it, man. Like, you should go after this thing. So I appreciate you.

Yeah, man. Thank you. I'm confident you'd have figured it out.

Yeah. We'll get there. I don't know if we ever figure it out, but yep. All right. I'm trying.

Here's, here's the curveball. Gun to your head, you've gotta start a new business in 30 days. It can't be anything that you're currently doing. Where's the opportunity in the market?

What business are you I'm starting a whole food vertically integrated kitchen because people are eating terrible and right now, and grab and go society isn't going anywhere. And I would create a business model where I can deliver meals, 450, 500 calorie meals right to your door for less than $10, premium ingredients. In order to do that, I gotta own everything.

Yeah.

From top to bottom. I cannot have any middleman. I, Burn Nutrition tried to launch meals and we had a kitchen and the kitchen failed, um, at, in our backend. So our meal business failed. Uh, that's what I would do. I would start a, um, one city at a time, one kitchen in one city servicing all of Charlotte. Probably start here and I'd run a whole food bus— it would be the hardest, most illogical business to choose with the highest amount of competition. But I don't look at that. I look at what do people need. Yeah. And I think people, if they could get fresh meals to their house for less than $10 a meal. Oh, it's gonna be a game changer. Somebody needs to do it. Factor's too expensive. Yeah.

Yeah. And, and you're, and you're exposing your brand to new customers.

Yeah. I don't know if I'd make it a Burn brand. What do you think? Should make it a Burn Brands or make it something else?

I don't know.

I don't know either. Hmm.

I don't know. I did some Factor meals for a little while, but I felt it just got too expensive.

Exactly right. And you're a, and you're a, that was, you're a healthy guy. It's like, that's it.

I was gonna eat, you know, 'cause I was eating 3 for one meal.

That was Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, I mean, it was great actually. They, they're good. I did, I didn't hate 'em. Uh, Zach does 'em, my son does 'em and his wife Celeste, and they gave me a coupon, you know, so I got like a bunch free and then we, I did it for 3 or 4, whatever. And that's just, I don't know.

I think I could do it different and better. It's like the same thing with fitness. Like it was a very crowded, illogical space to come into when we came into it. And you know, as well as I do, great leadership teams, great leadership, great entrepreneurs. Like I say this because it's true. Hopefully it doesn't sound arrogant. In our, in our dynasty, I'm the superstar. Morgan's a superstar. My COO, we're the big three. Right. And I wouldn't, I wouldn't give us to anyone else cuz I would be scared of that company if you gave us three to somebody else in our space. So yeah, that's, that's our big separator. And I think with us three at the helm, no matter what we go into, um, we know how to separate ourselves.

Yeah. Last question.

This is the fastball. Yep.

Here's fastball right down the middle. I know you were, what was your best pitch? You were—

I was a pitcher. I couldn't hit. I couldn't hit for anything. So I was, we could call 'em POs, pitcher only. I was a fastball slider guy. And so I'd throw a hard 92 mile an hour kind of running fastball. And then down the same tunnel, I'd throw like an 84, 86 mile an hour slider. That's all I had. I probably wasn't a big leaguer because I couldn't throw a changeup.

Well, you sound like my nephew who, thanks for reaching out.

Oh yeah. Congrats, dude. That's awesome.

Yeah. Jacob just got drafted. '83. Yeah. Which is a big number. That was my football number.

Oh, no way.

Yeah, we have a lot of 83 things going on.

Third round.

Uh, so yeah, he was beginning of the third round, and he's with the Athletics. He's a 96, 97, 98 fastball with a slider with a like 70% whiff rate on it.

Dude, he's dirty. Yeah, I've heard about him around the area. So yeah, now my kids are getting into baseball. He's like, yeah, obviously he's the guy.

So yeah, it'll be, uh, that's great.

Congrats on that. Thanks.

Awesome. He had Tommy John surgery and hopefully, you know, 18 months from now he'll be golden.

They do it nowadays. Like Strasburg came back and won the World Series on Tommy after having Tommy John. So he's gonna be just fine.

Very, very high success rate.

Yeah. It's gonna be fun to watch and see him grow.

It'll be exciting. All right. Fastball right down the middle. All right. You have one sentence to make an impact in somebody's life. What is it?

Keep moving. That's what I've been saying.

Love you, brother.

Love you too, man. All right. Appreciate you.

Thanks for coming. Absolutely.

All right.

I'm Jeff Dudan here with Devin Klein, and we have been on the Unemployable Podcast. Thanks for listening.