J.J. Abrams | Future Follows Fiction

Hi everyone. Welcome to Gray Matter, the podcast from Greylock, where we share stories from company builders and business leaders. I'm Heather Mack, Head of Editorial at Greylock. On today's episode, Greylock General partner Reid Hoffman talks with legendary filmmaker J.J. abrams. J.J. and his production company Bad Robot are behind some of the most beloved and iconic TV shows and movies ever made, including the modern versions of Star Trek and Star Wars. JJ and Reed centered their conversation around the ways science fiction and real world technology take inspiration from one another. They also talked about the ways people who are driving innovation are also responsible for the ways it affects society at large. This interview was part of Greylock's Iconversations speaker series. You can find all past and future recordings from that series on the Gray Matter podcast. So Please subscribe on SoundCloud, Spotify or or wherever you get your podcasts. Enjoy.

Hi everyone. Welcome to Greylock's Iconversations. I'm Reid Hoffman. Today I am thrilled to have my friend J.J. abrams with us. J.J. is the co founder and co Director of Bad Robot Productions, which has been the force behind some of the most successful and well known films and TV shows of our time. Bad Robot has brought us modern sci fi hits like Super 8, Star Wars, Star Trek and the Cloverfield franchises and shows like Alias, Felicity, Lost wars and Westworld. While relatively few tech entrepreneurs may work on products that end up being household names like JJ's Creations, there is a lot of overlap between how he and people in his world operate and how those of us in the tech ecosystem do as well. One of the parallels that I find most fascinating is how we are all seeking to change reality in some form and the way we bring our ideas to fruition. For JJ and others in media, this means creating compelling characters and stories who are who exist in alternate worlds. For the tech world, that means creating products that have or might fundamentally transform everyday life. In that regard, science fiction and real world technology continually take inspiration from one another. Similarly, anyone whose work impacts society at great levels carries a great responsibility. We'll spend most of today's discussion exploring those themes. JJ will share how he and Bad Robot develop ideas into stories, and we'll discuss how science fiction and games have inspired products and sometimes even companies in the nonfiction real world and vice versa. We'll also hear about JJ's own path to becoming an entrepreneur and company builder and how he approaches each project like a startup in and of itself. With that, let's get started. Jj, thanks so much as always for being here.

Reid. It's great to see you and thank you for that incredibly generous intro.

JJ and I have been friends for a long time. I was like, this is going to embarrass you a little bit, but it's worth saying. So that's how very sweet of you.

Thank you.

So like all good nerds, both you and I have always loved science fiction and games and also like good nerds, they've informed a lot of my thinking about real world technology and business strategy. And the same is true for many tech entrepreneurs and also of course, true for days to tech and real world events and inspiring sci fi, science fiction and media. So I know that you think about this a lot because, you know, part of how we first met is you started kind of scratching at and trying to figure out what's actually going on with what should be the real basis for some of the better kind of stories in this. And that was one of the things that you take very seriously. So what's some of the inspiration that you've kind of taken from tech and some of that process that you do for generating these amazing stories?

I think the answer is maybe super obvious, but I'll say it, which is, I think that it is very much a two way street. I remember when we were shooting one of our Star Trek films, we were shooting at Livermore Labs. We're at the National Ignition Facility and almost to a researcher, they were coming over to us and saying, oh my God, I got into this because of Star Trek and now you're shooting Star Trek here. And we're like, well, we're shooting Star Trek here because this looks like what we thought Star Trek should look like, you know, And I think that there are a lot of examples of that we just take for granted. Looking back at things, again, super obvious, but 2001, when you see the technology that exists there, when you look at, you know, it could be anything from, you know, the Dick Tracy comic strips and communication watch to obviously the Star Trek communicator. I think that what I or people like myself have been inspired to consider or to do or think was perhaps even, you know, inevitable. And therefore I'm going to make it real. The list is long and obviously reaching out to you. You've been always incredibly generous also in connecting me with other people as well who could help just have a discussion and give me a sense of what else I might be looking at or considering or thinking about. Because obviously for I think all of us, the list of things that we might not know is far longer than what we do.

Well, one of the Things that I love about the way that you approach science fiction is a lot of times people think of science fiction as about the technology. And for you, it's about the humanity and the story with the science and the technology there. It's actually one of the reasons I think you're kind of being so multidisciplinary in how you think about it is good. What are the ways in which this kind of interface with the science and technology is. Is having you think about how it affects our humanity, you know, whether it's AI or synthetic biology or the network, you know, kind of.

How.

How is that weaving into your storytelling?

Well, it's funny because there are some times where, for example, when we're working on Star Wars. I personally don't consider Star wars to be science fiction as much as I feel it is just a great adventure and kind of like a serial, you know, drama, fantasy, and. And so it's funny, like, certain times, you know, science can be the greatest gift. And some of my favorite stories are ones that take a scientific notion and then ask, what if? And push it one step further. And there's usually that one area where it's kind of like obfuscating the kind of like that membrane that gets permeated. Then you cross over into the impossible, but you do it all through what is possible. So, for example, when Shelley wrote Frankenstein and had lightning, the power of lightning hit, you know, and that was sort of like in the magic of lightning, that thing happened, you know, Crichton did it, certainly with Jurassic park and the notion of, you know, what if in genetics? That, you know, what if we took what we know and said, would it be possible to if in amber, you know, et cetera. So I love the idea of science pushing and creating opportunities, but I feel like my favorite movies that I've ever seen and stories I've read are ones where there's something that is. That we know to be true, that is real. And somehow, at some point, almost invisibly, we've crossed over into the. This is either not possible or, you know, not likely at all. But we are now in the thing that makes it the story that we all know and love. And again, there are so many examples of what those stories are.

Yeah, no, exactly. And, you know, like, for example, like diving into Westworld, which was this kind of question about, you know, what is to be human and what are the, you know, kind of identity, free will, determination, ethics. Yes, there is, like, real things about creating robots and AI, but you know, what you're really Telling is this entire story that plays out all of these very canonical human tendencies.

It's funny because the. You know, Michael Crichton, when he made Westworld, and when I was a kid and saw it, and I had a meeting with Crichton now 25 years ago about this, it was, of course, a mostly fantastical notion. And it was all, you know, sort of taking what he knew to be true and asking, what if, like, you know, like we're saying. But for me, the thing that struck me was that feeling of I. I felt for as much as Yul Brenner's character terrified the hell out of me, you know, I weirdly felt for that character and those characters. And there was that kind of, you know, the dynamic between James Brolin and Richard Benjamin in that film. There was that element of. It was at the core about a kind of an ethical question. And I have to give 100% of the credit to Westworld to Jonah Nolan and Lisa Joy, who took this on. I did pitched the idea to HBO and sell the premise, which. Which for me was about oppression. And it was about everything you just mentioned, and it was really about being aligned with people who come to realize their life is not what they think it is, and they realize that they are, in fact, imprisoned in and the creations of an entity that is, you know, and then, of course, the question becomes, well, who isn't? On some level, but. But Jonah and Lisa took this idea that HBO bought and they made it literal and brought it to life in a way that, you know, I think is really remarkable. And so I love the idea of coming to a story from the human point of view, the character that you are, that you love. Not to say that that character can't also be something of technology and of the science.

One funny intersection that I think it may be fun to share with people, and I think this is fine because it's historic, but to ask. I remember having this conversation with you when you were startled at how fast Reddit had figured out the plot twist, that it was like, you guys are like. We haven't really foreshadowed it that much. We've only just, you know, like, just hinted at it.

Well, it was funny that, you know, when Jonah and Lisa were pitching out what they were doing in that first season and that there was this time differential and the idea that we were intercutting scenes. But what you come to realize later is that you had been watching something completely asynchronous and, you know, out of time. It was one of those things. That when they were pitching it and then when they got to it, I was like, holy crap, that is just so good. And it was, I think, within a couple episodes or a few episodes that people online had, you know, in that sort of amazing hive mind, unstoppable way, come to, you know, conclude, you know, who the man in black was and what we were watching. And I was like, oh, my God, like, like part of the fun of that is what you hope to do is something that anyone will hypothesize where it might be going or what it might mean. And so it wasn't anything but exciting to see people getting what Joan and Lisa were doing.

You grew up around the entertainment industry. You know, love of film and tv, you know, on master scale, we covered that amazing Steven Spielberg, let's do the Super 8 side. And that set the foundation for the career path. But was science fiction the way to approach humanity or the way to approach the possible? Was that the thing that kind of made science fiction a lot of what you're doing? Not all, but a lot. Or was it works of science fiction? What was it?

I rarely think of things in terms of what genre is it, as opposed to what is the kind of ooh factor. The like, oh, my God, that's. I want to see that. Or, wow, what if I were there? What if my family were? You know, there's a kind of vicarious wish fulfillment, you know, or cautionary tale aspect that science fiction is. It's a wonderful way to talk about who we are and where we are without being literal about it. You know, when we did Cloverfield, which is, you know, a big crazy monster movie that Matt Reeves directed, that was very much a, you know, it was. It was a post 911 sort of. You know, it was a way of dealing with trauma in the city that wasn't the literal thing, you know, and we had a lot of, you know, conversations about that. And I feel like science fiction just lends itself to. And obviously, Gene Roddenberry was. Was sort of wonderful at commenting on who we are and societal ills and questions he had and issues that he had. Just the way Rod Serling was in, you know, the Twilight Zone. Because, I mean, Rod Serling famously had written stories that were not genre stories. They were these literal stories about race or politics or the Cold War or, you know, you know, any number of things that just incited rage with the sponsors and the networks. And he got in trouble all the time. And it was. And finally, the Twilight Zone was a way of saying, I'm going to tell every story I want to, but they're going to be aliens or it's going to be science fiction or to be something. And he. And everything was metaphor. And I think that science fiction genre in general, I think, lends itself so well to that.

Yeah, no, I completely agree. And it's part of the humanity. You have a broad palette. Everyone's very familiar with the film and tv. There's little funny things like creating the boring logo for Elon. And, you know, because your palette includes making hats, right. And sending them over. And so, you know, there's a very broad palette. How do you look at the differences between movies and film and this kind of linear and interactive, like games? Do you also kind of play in that palette? Do you think that palette has some interesting strengths and weaknesses relative to the film and tv?

For sure. It's a great question. You know, we just recently started Bad Robot Games, sort of officially getting it off the ground with Anna Sweet at the head of it. And I feel like we've got this. This is something we're talking about quite a bit. And in fact, the idea of the company is, you know, that sort of the mission statement is to continually redefine how stories are played. And the idea that we are like, you know, that a story is critical. And yet when you're playing a game, it's hard to argue that gameplay is the most important thing. And then, of course, there's the question of, are you telling a story or are you being told a story? And how much does one want to play a game to be told a story, and how much does one want agency to be telling the story? And, you know, there's no one answer for every game. There are all sorts of different ways that a gamer can, you know, can play. And so we're always in healthy debate, I think, about what it is to tell a story when it is interactive. Because a story, by definition, I think, is something that has an inevitability and a moral, and you're telling the story for a sort of purpose. And how do you know what it is you are setting up if you don't know how you are paying it off? And in a game, unless it is a hierarchy where you are sort of hiding the fact that there is inevitably, you know, you're always sending people to these particular places, which is a familiar approach to it, you know, it's very hard to give particular meaning to a moment if you don't understand how it's going to come back later. And so I think that, you know, I love games and all kinds. And I think that some games lend themselves really well to expanding worlds that have a narrative. So you can kind of feel like you're part of something, even though it's not a literal. I think one of the, one of the errors of, you know, that we've seen is that whether it's in a sort of cash grab way or an oppo, you know, an opportunistic way, movies have been made to kind of try and recreate what you experience playing the game. Which immediately pisses off the people who play because they're like, don't tell me what my game is. And games have been made because it's like, oh, let's do that again, but in a game and put the person in there. But the truth is, unless it's in the real context of the movie, some of those sequences end up just sort of being a bit rote. And to me, the fun of it is saying, well, what if you took the spirit of that movie and said, what could a great game be on its own, but it happens to live in that universe. And then you can start to seed ideas back and forth and you can start to, you know, they can be additive, you know, cross directionally. And that to me is something that's very exciting.

Do you think you're going to try? I mean, this may be too predictive and too early, but to actually have games that have that same kind of emotional, like, this is the moral of the story. This is the catalyst of the perspective.

I think it's happened. I mean, like, you know, when you play the Last of Us, it's like that is a deeply moving, emotional and thrilling experience. You know, there are games out there that do that. Of course, like anything, it is both hard to do. Those are few and far between when they're like at that sort of level of narrative. And I think it's a pretty nascent means of telling those kind of stories. And I think that as it becomes clear what kind of narratives work best interactively and as the technology continues to evolve in a way, and obviously like we're all seeing with things like Unreal Engine 5 and you see not just what is possible in real time rendering, but that literally the tools that are being used to create real time games are the tools that are being used to create the movies and shows that we see. I mean, it is becoming one conversation. And I think if you look at technology and creation, whether it's graphics or music or nonlinear editing, there's a kind of Fluidity between programs and techniques that has kind of obviated the need to even say Renaissance person. Because a Renaissance person used to be someone who, like, oh, did all these things. We're now born into doing all these things. Like, kids now don't know the difference between listening to music and the ability to make it, because they all know they can. The thing that they got comes with the thing that lets them, you know, for me, I feel like where we're going with games will invariably lead to those kind of emotional stories increasingly.

Yep. No, that makes total sense. So let's shift a little to process. And let's start with kind of a funny thing that. What I was witness to, which is, you know, I invited you up to this CEO dinner.

What are you talking about?

Yes, well, remember the CEO dinner we had in San Mateo?

Yeah, of course.

Where the Apollo Fusion. The guys working on Fusion. And, you know, I kind of made sure that you were sitting next to some of the interesting people, you know, creating new things. And this was like, we're making fusion in our garage, you know, kind of thing as a way of making it entertaining. One of the things you were asking a whole bunch of questions because you're like, this story kind of writes itself. How often do you encounter this kind of, like, suddenly bizarre, the truth is stranger than fiction story that starts inspiring you and can you share a few of those moments?

We all, not just people who are storytellers, but, like. And I think on some level everyone is. But we all, certainly in my line of work, we all love the idea of Doc Brown or Seth Brundle or who, you know, being real. Like, you want those people to really exist. And you kind of find out that they do. Because when, like, I remember we were doing Fringe, the weirder, you know, the story, we came up with the weirdest thing that we might come up with in any given week or month, we would almost invariably hear something a week later that was weirder, that was actually happening that might be similar. It might be weirdly the same. The stuff that, you know. And it's not to say that that kind of pushing at science fiction extreme, sort of X Files territory stuff is common. But you do find that people are in their garages dreaming up and coming up with any number of incredible things, including, obviously in the category of genetics, which I think is going to end up being, as most people I think know, gonna be this wild west of, I think, very hard to comprehend advancements and accessibility. I think that the thing that's so crazy about that is how you're not going to need a giant infrastructure or corporate support to create your own insect or species. So I just feel like there's a lot of weirdness around the corner. And in fact, something that we're working on right now, not specifically about genetics, but just kind of embracing the feeling of between genetics and robotics and AI and all this that's happening, that feeling that we are on the precipice of the kind of inventions that I think will be very hard for people to swallow or comprehend. That's for someone who does what I do is an opportunity. Because it feels like there is that sense of things are getting weird, they're kind of going to get weirder. And what doors does that open and what can we put a family through?

And how do you inform what the humanity of it is? I mean, like, I had a conversation with one of the leading geneticists where I was like, well, how are we going to make these decisions about, you know, how to begin to approach genetics as design, you know, versus just, you know, kind of like, you know, kind of editorial filter? And he said, oh yeah, I could see us deciding like you add some jellyfish to your genetics and, you know, I'm going to add some kind of, you know, bald eagle to mine and so forth. You're like, you can see the smoke or the steam coming out of my ears going, whoa.

Yeah, I doodle a lot. And I will often draw like a circle and shade it as a sphere and shadow it and everything. And then I'll just draw some like a little figure on it or, you know, next to it or climbing up it. And it's just weird how when you put in, you know, an anthropomorphized figure into or a human figure into any kind of situation, suddenly it becomes interesting. Not just three dimensional, but it becomes relatively connected to you. And I just feel like everything you're describing, if you put a person next to anything you just said, it's interesting. Like, what is it when you are. When someone is adjacent to. In the center of. Involved in something spectacular or something potentially frightening or something mysterious that we don't know. And that is the place that I think to go back to Crichton again, because he just, he did it so well. That feeling of, you know, taking people that you come to connect with and then saying, oh, and this happened and, you know, and this is what's going on and they've done that, you know, and then the answer to that question, I think becomes apparent, which is, you know, like what does it say about us? And of course, it depends on what the story is, but it starts to become clear.

So one of the many areas of overlap, the work you do and the work that the Silicon Valley folks do is talent. Right? Because obviously, you know, a lot of your job these days is not actually architecting the story or anything else, but it's assembling the teams and helping catalyze them and, and make sure they're, you know, kind of, like, motivated the right way. What's some of the things that, that you kind of learned as kind of, you know, your thoughts and inspirations and rules around talent that our tech group might be super curious about?

There's obviously no rules that one can really follow to do anything. I think that, you know, every day, whenever we're shooting something, and, and I kind of a day is coming up and I'm like, oh, I think this is gonna go. I, I know what, I know what we're gonna do. This is gonna be great. Invariably, it kicks my ass that day. And when I go into a day and I'm like, God damn, this is going to be a bear. I don't know, weirdly, it kind of works. And I just, I don't know how to predict or how to. But I will say, in terms of talent, primarily, I think we all want to be taken on a ride, and we want to find people who have something, and it can be in any concentration, any area that inspires, that makes us feel something. And I've talked about this with you before, but the thing that I kind of rely on for that is this sixth sense that we all have, which is the chills. Like, when you get the chills when someone shows you something, talks about something, describes something, like, you listen to something that they've done. You can't. Like, when you feel that thing, it is not. You can't have a conversation about. It's like it's. That's telling you, it's the universe saying, yeah, yeah, that. So there's that thing, I think, a critical thing I have found. And, you know, obviously at Bad Robot, we have a bunch of approaches to this, but it's become really valuable and it is a value for us, which is to make sure that the people that we're working with, the talent we're bringing in, don't always look like us, that they're people who come from different experiences, different backgrounds. And that has been a priceless thing for us to work with. People who don't just shake their head or nod or Say, yeah, let's do that thing. But say, yeah, but what if? Or what about. In my experience, you know, and those are things that are really invaluable because I think increasingly people are finding themselves looking for. And especially, by the way, now in this ecosystem of 10 million new shows an hour, they're looking for stories that don't feel like same old, same old. So I think finding people who are, you know, inspiring, finding people who are not the usual suspects is key. And I also think that, you know, I tend. I do tend to work with a lot of the same people again and again, but I also feel like it has become a huge part of what we do at Bad Robot to expand our horizons and learn from not just the younger generation of storytellers and filmmakers and artists, but also to rethink the things that we just assume are the way. Because obviously, we all have a lot to learn still.

And actually, I'll come back to a talent question there as well. But there's a very natural connection to something else that I think people who followed your work really have always found inspiring and important, which is you generate naturally strong female protagonists. Sometimes in industries, it tends to be the. Well, it's the two guy buddies doing the adventure. And yet the hero is frequently a woman. Is that just a natural part of the storytelling? That diversity perspective from you? How has that come out to be such a notable part of the work that you do?

It's funny, I've always found myself drawn to female protagonists and stories in a weird way. But I remember, like, whenever I would watch Batman as a kid, I was always so happy when Batgirl would swing by and be like, oh, Batgirl's in this one. Like, I was always really happy that that girl was around. I remember when I wrote Felicity, a lot of people were saying, God, you know, why have a young woman at the center of the thing? And then when I did Alias, people were like, wow, so why have her be a spy? Why have it be a, you know, female spy? And I remember thinking at the time, no one would be asking me that question if they were male protagonists. And, of course, increasingly it is. You know, it's less and less unusual. But I feel like the, you know, whether it's that, you know, my mother was a very sort of strong and inspiring figure in my life. You know, I went to Sarah Lawrence College, which was a majority female, and I'd find myself in rooms, you know, with all these women who were talking about things that I was just sort of like, kind of invisible. Which was sort of my M.O. around women in general. But also I think that there's really a sense of. There's something about a woman at the center that I, for whatever reason, as a writer, I find myself strangely rooting for her. And even when I don't know who she is. For example, when I was talking to Kathy Kennedy about working on a Star wars movie, before there was any sense of what would happen, I remember talking to her and saying, I feel like there's. I can imagine that there's this young woman who lives in this world where. Where all the stuff that we know of Star wars is literally the history of her life. Like, it's what's come before her. And I just like, who is that person and who is she? And so I remember that that was even the way in, but it wasn't an outside in thing. It wasn't like, let's consider what we should put a female in there. It was just. I'm just naturally drawn to it. That kind of character, for better or worse.

No, that makes a lot of sense. And it's actually one of the things I think many folks, including me, have always appreciated about the stories back when you're writing and generating. So back to the talent thing. One of the things that we struggle, I think, in Silicon Valley, and that's one of the reasons I was kind of opening to this. And I think you've talked a little bit about it, but I think it's worth even going through it here and refreshing, which is, how do you maintain that nimbleness of creativity? Because part of envisioning the future is similar to the story, which is envisioning, like, possibility. Envisioning, you know, kind of it could be different. And what's one of the things you guys do at Bad Robot, like, culturally, with each other, Physical plant exercises, management techniques. Because creativity is everything for you. It's, you know, it's blood, it's. It's. It's air. Yeah, right.

It's a great question. I mean, I think that you have to sort of delineate management and sort of corporate company structure and the creative experience. And there's 100%, a core critical Venn diagram. You know, for me personally, working with people, we have a TV department, a film department, music department, games department. We have a workshop. We have the good robot side of things. You know, on all fronts, there is, you know, the sort of required work to keep the company up and running, and a lot of that stuff that gets done. And Katie sees a lot more of that than I do, which I'm grateful for, because I know 100% that's not in any way my strong suit. I still don't know what is, but that is not my strong suit. I know that for sure. But that is critical stuff. I mean, I didn't even know when we had this company. Well, in years into the company, it's like, you know, we probably need, like, an HR department. Like, really. We probably have to talk about, like. Like, reviews, really, bonuses. Right. All the things that, of course, one does. I had not a clue. But I think the creative side of things, you know, And Brian Weinstein, who's our president, has been really helpful at finding people to help do this as well. Having a company where the divisions are open to and kind of in some ways reliant upon each other for opinions, for feedback, but at the same time, very much their own pillars of the company and that they work with. We bring in and hire showrunners or filmmakers that don't need to be babysat, but who are collaborative and open to the conversations. And that's where the real sort of creative stuff happens. So it's a bit like controlled chaos, which is to say you want to have sort of boxes where, you know, here's that project and there's that project, and inside that box, it may be insane, it may be a mess, it may be crazy. And it's going to probably kind of the process will be very different than that box because, you know, they're two different human beings or teams working on those things. And as long as I know that the people who are running those divisions in that hierarchical way are overseeing and checking in on what's happening with those people. I feel like I know where I am in it. I get very unsettled when a week goes by or two weeks go by, and I'm like, I haven't heard about a thing. And it's one of those, like. Like an alarm goes off in my head. It's like, wait a minute, what's going on with that? And so part of it is just about, you know, again, not micromanaging, just sort of understanding, because I do need a sense of where things are, even if they're stalled, because then we can start to solve for that. Why is it in that state? But in terms of the company, I think it's about trust. It's about working people and creating an environment where they can show up and bring their best selves to work, treating people like people. And of course, it's dangerous when you get too Sort of familial, because then it's like there are a lot of feelings. There are a lot of feelings out there. And especially the millennial workers, obviously, they've got a lot to say, and they're approaching work in a very different way than those who've come before. But to do our best, and we're making mistakes all the time. To embrace the fact that you don't know, which is to say, if you're working on a series like we're doing this new show for HBO during this crazy pandemic time, we've actually had the ability to write every episode of the first season, which I've never had before. I've never gone into shooting something where we had every episode written. And it's a gift that. I'd love to find a way to continue that without the pandemic part. But I will say that I also look back at things, you know, from. From Felicity and Alias and Lost and Fringe, actually, where there were actors who came in who were going to be on the show for an episode or two episodes, and they were extraordinary, and there was an alchemy between them and the regular cast. And all of a sudden you're like, oh, no, no, he's not going anywhere. This guy's got to stay. And so I will say that in terms of being nimble, you have to have a plan, but I think you have to have the sense of the faith in the operation. And it is a leap of faith to say, I cannot determine, I cannot mandate everything. I have to be open to what is going to surprise us and what's going to make it better. And I just feel like some of the best decisions that I've either been a part of or been associated with are. Are those that listened to and were aware of the better idea. I think that that's the thing. I mean, obviously, the biggest and most obvious example in my business is not too long ago, you know, Netflix used to send out DVDs and Blu Rays in a little red envelope. You know, it's like, if your eyes aren't open and you're not thinking about, what else can we be doing here? You're going to, I think, miss a.

Trick, miss the entire industry. One of the things that you have done maybe better than anyone else I know in history, there's nothing you can say after this. No, we're done. Mic drop is the relaunches of treasured stories, treasured franchises, right? Star wars and the new episodes, Star Trek. This is something that you bring. I Think it's partially humanity to, but also this kind of creativity. What's been the experience with it? What's been the process of those. Those. Imagine a new launch that adds to this amazing history.

Well, I feel like those kind of situations, it's so common now in the business for things to be revisited, relaunched, rebooted to a point where there are things that I'm now getting calls that certain things that I've been involved with, that we created are being asked, you know, can we do this? Can we reboot that? You know, So I would say this. My approach, which is 100% vulnerable to being the worst thing possible for at least half the audience, which is to say when there is a beloved thing, there is, you know, automatically, which I get. And as someone who is a fan of these things, I completely understand there is a. An immediate defensive posture or, you know, uncertain posture about what is this person going to do with this thing that I love? I feel like as someone who's been involved in a number of these things, and I would include, you know, Westworld and Mission Impossible as well, when Tom invited me to work on that, I think you have to approach it from the point of view of embracing the spirit of what was done. Yes, the letter of it. Of course, there's canon. You have to respect that. But you have to ask yourself, you know, what is it you would like to see what you know. And of course, there are often, perhaps even always, you know, various voices that, you know are requiring certain things because these things precede you, and you have to honor that. But I think the way to do it is to approach it from as much as possible a place of embracing the thing that you loved about it and not assuming it's going to be interesting to anyone just because it comes from that thing, you know, like, how is it interesting to you, despite it being a name at the title that you might know? I think a lot of times, you know, a lot of movies have been made where the actor that they got for the role sort of was the crutch and maybe enough work wasn't done here or there on. On what the story was. And I just think you can't rely on a fan base. In fact, the fan base, obviously, and, you know, I have this personal experience, they are not a quiet bunch, nor should they be. And, you know, I just think you have to go into that. That kind of stuff with as much passion and love for what you're doing as possible, and know that whatever you do will not please everyone. And you Desperately want to and you just, you just won't. But it's, I think it's all about going into it with anything but what must be somewhere a corporate idea to exploit this thing that is easier to sell than something else, you know? Yep.

Well, it's, it's keep the spirit, but then add a new mystery to it in part or something you can connect to or any number of things. But it's that it has to be.

Additive, it has to be something that sparks to you. But it's a great platform. You know, if there's something that you love. I mean, when you look at the Dark Knight, the idea that Chris Nolan had that vision for Batman, you know, frankly, you know, the way Tim Burton did, you know, years earlier, like when you have someone who has a kind of sense of something and it's one of those things, it's like, hell, yes. Like, like those are examples of incredibly entertaining movies that, but in the wrong hands, obviously things don't go that way. And sometimes I think my hands have been right and other times my hands have been wrong.

I know it's been many years since you actually had to pitch for business since, you know, having proven the work, you get so many phone calls, you basically hard to pick up the phone these days.

Oh no. But by the way, I'm pitching all the time. Go ahead. Sorry.

Yes, well, and so the question is, you know, Hollywood knows how to do strong pitches. What are some of the lessons from pitches you might imagine would be useful for tech entrepreneurs who are coming and pitching? People like me, you know, venture capitalists saying, here's how to imagine this company as part of the future. What, what are some of your kind of heuristics or thoughts about good pitches?

I don't know if this will apply or be remotely helpful, but I'll try to answer fascinating question. For me, the best pitches are, at least for story, are the kind of pitches that fairly shortly, like pretty quickly in the conversation give me the feeling that I can tell the audience or the player or the user would have with this idea, this, this invention, this notion, which is to say, rather than talk about level of detail that is incredibly inside out thinking or the sort of details that I'm not, I'm not on board yet. So like, don't tell me like what the details are inside the, the ship, like I gotta get on the ship in order for any of the, you know, the details to matter. So to me, the more I can get a sense of something in the most efficient way possible so that I'm actually asking the question. Or that I go, ooh, I get it. Or that there's a feeling. And by the way, it might be about a detail. So for example, if someone's pitching a story, it might be something very early on in the story that just clicks where you're, you know, you feel like, oh, that's a kind of a great moment. And then once you've, you know, hooked me and I've gotten that feeling, you can be pretty broad stroke about what, where the story goes, what the shape of it is. And it's funny, like on one of the shows that we're doing now, we're doing this thing where before we even write an outline, we're having this like four page document written that is kind of, you know, for an episode of the show. If you were to describe to your friend sort of what that episode was and why it was so good, like, what's the feeling? What is the thing you would say? Don't give me every detail, pitch me. The thing that you would tell your friend, like, this is why you have to watch that episode, you know, with some spoilers maybe. But the idea is to create an intention document. So I would just say in a pitch, pitch the intention version, not the outline, and then let the person like you, who's going to sort of decide what goes next, ask the questions. Because as soon as you're asking questions the questions, that's a good sign. Like, so I feel like the goal for me is to be as efficient as possible. Grab the person with the feeling of the thing and then tell them enough so they're getting what they need to know kind of. But then like, well, how does that, or how exactly. Or you know, what's the methodology for like all the questions that you would, you know, follow up with become the conversation. And by the way, that's, I guess the headline for this is make the pitch a conversation as quickly as you can. Because if it's just a pitch and one person's talking, one person listening, it's not very interesting. Get what you can out there so it can become a conversation.

Yep. And by the way, the other parallel in what you've said that I also give is advice to entrepreneurs is say, look, what you're targeting is when you get to one, how does one investor talk to another about your company, your deal? So they say, no, no, it's about this, this and this. And that's like the intention that you're talking about is like, and, and by the way, they have to Be engaged enough that they have to be curious, they have to be in conversation, asking questions. If you haven't gotten them there, the likelihood that they're gonna engage or be good partners is much more remote. Agreed.

And also we're people and anything that we are doing that isn't a collaborative nature or partnership is going to be. How do you. And I think the sooner you can get a sense of what is that dynamic. And it's not just, oh, I like them, it's like, oh, I get their energy, I get their intention, I get their innovation. And I just think the more, the sooner you get to the conversation, the sooner you get a sense of how we might work together. Because it's how we talk together.

Yes, exactly. So in this kind of pitching frame, one of the things I think I'm going to now shift to and hopefully this will be entertaining for you, you know, because an investor, I'm always looking towards technologies that will be common in the future. And so there's a set of different technologies that I've thought about or invested in that I kind of want to say, what do you think about those technologies? Like how does, how does. What is your reflex? Yes, exactly. I thought, oh no.

This is not where our friendship ends, right?

No, no, not at all. And so let's start with. Been doing a lot in the future of transportation. So self driving vehicles like Aurora or flying cars like Joby, what does that make you think of in the future?

We all want to live in a world where flying cars are a real thing. Just because whether it's Jetsons or any other version, like the idea was something. I mean, I remember being, I literally remember this moment being on the playground in elementary school and I was talking to this kid Reid, who was telling me that they are going to be self driving cars. We were having this debate and this was. I was in fifth grade, I think, but we were like having this argument about self driving cars. And I was literally trying to imagine. My argument was that it wasn't possible for all these various reasons. And he who was clearly, even at the time, you could tell this kid was just super brilliant. Kind of had a vision for like how now it's almost like saying to the fifth grade version of us, one day you're gonna be able to listen to any song you want to anywhere you are. Like, I don't know what kind of gymnastics my brain would have to go through to begin to understand how that would ever be a possibility. But I only bring it up to say that it's Like a childhood dream. So I would say yes, 100%. You know, you want to see self driving cars and flying cars. I think that both clearly they're going to require the transition from there's no way in hell I would trust my family's life, you know, with this thing, you know, in, in this thing's hands to putting in the destination and then turning around, having a conversation for an hour and then arriving at your friend's house. Like it's going to be a fascinating transition. And yet when you see how incredibly quickly we adapt and adopt technology into our lives, my guess is it's probably a lot faster than you think. As long as it's, you know, actually safe.

And actually I think the trust. Exactly right. Not only the trust of oh gosh, is it safe too? Oh gosh, is not having it safe like, oh, can I get to the hospital fast enough or could I get to. It's like, like all of these things is part of the.

Well, that's certainly, that's certainly been, been Elon's argument, you know, that it is a far safer thing to have this work well than to have people have their hands on the wheel and controlling it themselves.

Yes, exactly. So then the next one in a lot of work that's happening in artificial intelligence, you know, OpenAI GPT3 natural language prediction models Generating stories, generating conversation. Now this is to some degree most close to stories and all the rest. But is there, have you been playing at all with this and has it been giving you any ideas for your kind of lenses into the future?

We have not been working with any story generating AI personally. But obviously this is something that is undeniably here and only going to get refined and become more and more legit, whether it's music or visual art or story. I think on one level, sure, wherever an incredible story comes from, bless it, that's great. You know, the point of stories obviously is to move us. The thing that, you know, one could argue that Hollywood has already for years been in an automatic, you know, almost like Mad Libs version of various movies. And certainly I'm sure I'm as to blame as anyone for anything that feels like it's, you know, a kind of cynical approach to storytelling. I would argue that it feels pretty depressing. Not as like, oh, someone would take my job or someone else's job. It's not about that. Which of course is there's, that's, there's that too. But the idea that stories are not being made to move computers to make, you know, to have computers, the soul of a computer, for, you know, stories are written and told and created to move, you know, humanity. And hopefully, while there will be all sorts of technology and certainly like in music, there's clearly so much technology that exists now that allows for someone who's never picked up a guitar to sound like they played the guitar on a record or an orchestra or any instrument. Hopefully, whatever tools come and exist will be used to challenge the storytellers that hopefully will remain human and to create the works that do move us the most.

Yep. So our last question, because, unfortunately, as I always discover, I could talk to you for hours doing this, but we only have an hour.

I love talking to you.

You know, storytelling often leads us to what we as entrepreneurs should be working on as well as what we should be working away from. What's something that you would like to shine a light on and could do through your storytelling? Is there any particular, kind of like, how to make sure that we stay true to who we can be as humanity and stay away from misfunction? Is there. Is there. Is there some kind of parting words of guidance?

Well, look, I mean, obviously, I think if you take away anything from this conversation is that I have nothing to say that you don't know already. But my instinct is that certainly on a daily basis, it does not take much to find examples of people treating other people in an inhumane way. And we seem to be in a moment where people feel like they have license to and are somehow made stronger by being cruel to other people. And I don't know what it is exactly. There are a lot of things that we could all sort of point to and bring up that we all know. But I feel like, yes, you can find stories of people being kind, and yet those are never as loud as the stories of people being cruel. And I feel like we seem to have lost a level of acceptance and compassion and nuance that I think is critical for us to be friends, even if one of us is a Republican and the other one is a Democrat, or to be friends, depending on, you know, if one of us doesn't look like the other. And I get that we are in a crazy time. And I get that fear can give rise to all sorts of behavior that is perhaps stuff that one might be ashamed of later, but shame itself seems to have gone away. And I guess I would just say a story that reminds us that we are more like than not. That being compassionate and being good and kind to each other isn't a weakness, it's a strength. And that there are some inevitabilities that cannot be fought in terms of who we are and what's going so the reality is we have to learn how to coexist because we're not going to exist in another way. And so I just, I guess if I would say anything, it would be like, is there a story that can be a drop in the bucket and help remind us the golden rule just to treat others the way we want to be treated?

Yep. I literally cannot think of a more perfect bow on this conversation. The not only discover your own humanity, but discovers others and connect to it with kindness and compassion. I cannot agree more. As always, a pleasure and honor to chat with you and I look forward to our next conversations.

I do as well. Thank you for having me. Really, really appreciate it, Reid.

That concludes this episode of Gray Matter. If you enjoyed this interview and want to hear more like it, please subscribe to our channel on SoundCloud, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also Visit our website, greylock.com blog for all new content and you can find us on Twitter reylobvc. Thanks for listening.