Nir Eyal on Building Habit-Forming Tech | #ProductSF

At Product sf, Nir Eal summarizes his Hook canvas and reminds us that it's not the best product that wins, it's the product that forms the monopoly of the mind. This presentation was recorded at Product sf, an event hosted by Greylock Partners that brings together founders, PMs and product leaders to talk about the challenges of building new, innovative products that change lives and create habits. For more podcasts, please visit news.greylock.com so.

Staying on this theme of growth, kind of taking James lessons and really figuring out what those actual behaviors are, I'm thrilled to welcome Nir Eyal to the stage. Many of you may have heard of Nir. He was dubbed the profit of Habit forming technology by the MIT Technology Review. He's founded two companies in the past. He's currently an active angel investor. He teaches at the Stanford Graduate School of Business and and a whole bunch of other places. And he's actually authored a book called Hooked, which we are fortunate to have some copies here at the desk. So if you want to pick up a copy of Nir's book on the way out, you can totally get it. It's really one of the best books. It kind of changes the way you'll think about sort of virality and growth. So I am super happy to have Nir come up and talk about habit forming technologies. Thanks, Nir.

Hey everybody, it's really a pleasure to be here and I just want to take a quick second to thank the organizers, to thank Greylog, to thank Josh in particular for getting us all together. Everybody, please give him a hand. Thank you so much for doing this. These events are a ton of work to put on, so it's really fantastic. Thank you for bringing us all together. Thank you also for buying copies of my book. I really appreciate that. So, you know, usually what I do in a talk is I kind of give people an overview of the book, but for this audience it seems like kind of a waste of time, frankly. You all have a copy of the book per the generosity of Greylock. So I don't want to necessarily do that because you can go read the book on your own time. That's why I spent two and a half years of my life writing it. It scales these ideas that you can get them out there. So I want to save most of my time for questions, right? To really dive into. What kind of questions do you have around customer engagement? Does that sound good? Is that all right? Let me give kind of like a brief overview of my work just to kind of set the stage if you're not familiar with some of my work around habit forming products and technology, but start thinking about questions, I'd really love to take them. So I think if there's one theme that we've hear many times today, it's this word gem, right? Growth, engagement and monetization. Reid talked about it. We've heard it kind of repeated again and again. And so I want to just place in this model of growth, engagement, monetization, my stuff, my research fits into engagement, right? That each of these three things are necessary but not sufficient. We've got to have growth, we've got to have engagement, we've got to have monetization. Each of those three things is necessary but not sufficient. And so what I saw a few years ago when I dove into this realm of user engagement and habit development design, what I was noticing was that a lot of companies were obsessed with growth, right? Viral growth was the hot topic. Everybody wanted their app to go viral, and that kind of seemed to be the cure all. But in my experience, looking around, I used to be in the gaming and advertising industry. And during that boom that Dave was talking about earlier, where people were building Facebook apps, we'd see these apps go crazy and grow unbelievably and then plummet. We call these businesses leaky buckets. Typically. That plummet, by the way, happened a couple days after the VC capital hit the bank. That was always the story. So what I really want to figure out is what is it about these companies that do such an amazing job of retaining users? How can we build habits in our customers? How do we nail engagement, that second part of growth, engagement and monetization? And so when I looked at these companies like Facebook and Twitter and Instagram and WhatsApp and Slack and Snapchat, what I wanted to really figure out was, is there a pattern, is there a repeatable design pattern that we can learn from and emulate in our own products and services? And so I was happy to report that after several years of research, what I discovered was that what we find is endemic to these products is called the hook. The hook has four basic steps. A trigger, an action, a reward, and an investment. And it's through successive cycles, through these hooks, that customer preferences are shaped, that our tastes are formed, and that our habits take hold. So let me walk you through these four basic steps of the hook very briefly. So let's start with a trigger. A trigger. There are two types of triggers. We have internal triggers and external triggers. External triggers. As product designers, you'll be very familiar with these are things in our environment that tell us what to do next. Click here. Buy now. Play this. A friend through word of mouth telling you about this great new app. You should try out all examples of external triggers. So we know all about these as product designers, we see them every day as consumers. But what people don't think about enough and what turns out to be absolutely critical to forming these long term habits, is creating an association with what's called an internal trigger. An internal trigger is something that tells the user what to do next. But that information for what to do is stored as a memory or an association inside the user's brain. So what we do when we're feeling bored or lonely or, or uncertain or fatigued, what we do when we experience these emotions dictates what we do next. So it's amazing in my consulting practice, when I meet with companies, when I consider companies to potentially invest in as an angel investor, it's amazing how many companies I'll sit down with and they can tell me all the whiz bang features that their product can do. But when it comes to what's the psychological itch, what's the need that you are addressing for your user that occurs frequently enough to form a habit? They haven't a clue. So in order to build a habit forming product, you've got to figure out what is that internal trigger and it has to occur. You have to pick one that occurs with sufficient frequency. So frequency is a big deal. Let me talk about this for a second. So Larry Page talks about the toothbrush test that he wants to invest in companies, he wants to acquire companies for Alphabet that pass the toothbrush test. And he's a very smart man for making that distinction because he understands the power of frequency. The data shows us that if the behavior that you want to turn into a habit does not occur within a week's time or less, you can pretty much kiss the idea of forming a habit goodbye. It's gotta occur that key behavior, opening the app, scrolling a feed, checking a website, whatever it is that you want to turn into a habit, if it does not occur within a week's time or less, very difficult, not impossible, very difficult to turn into a habit. So your challenge as a product designer is to understand what's that emotion, what's that negative emotion that occurs frequently enough that you want to attach your product to that you're going to scratch that user's itch that occurs with sufficient frequency. Okay, that's the triggers. Next comes the action phase of the hook. The action Phase is defined as the simplest behavior done in anticipation of a reward. The simplest thing that we can do to get relief from from that psychological itch. Scrolling a feed, a quick Google search, pushing the play button on YouTube. You notice how simple these key behaviors are. There's a lot more we can talk about in terms of how to make these behaviors as simple as possible to do. There's a lot more in the book as well. There's a whole chapter about that. But the third step of the hook is the reward phase. This is where the user's itch is scratched, where they get relief that they came for the. Now what's interesting is that it's not good enough to just give the user what they came for. We also want to see a bit of mystery, a bit of the unknown. This research comes from the classic work of B.F. skinner, the Father of operant conditioning. Skinner took these pigeons, he put them in a little box, he gave them a lever to peck at. And every time they pecked at this little disc, they received a reward. So at first, every time the pigeon would peck at the disc, they would get a little food pellet. That's called operant conditioning. Basically, the pigeons would peck at the disc whenever they were hungry. But then Skinner started running out of these food pellets. He literally started running out of them. And so he started giving the food pellets on an intermittent schedule of reinforcement. What he found was that when the pigeon pecked on the disc and didn't get a reward, but then the next time the pigeon would peck on the disc, they did receive a reward. What Skinner observed was that the rate of response, the number of times these pigeons pecked at the disc, increased when the reward was given on a variable schedule of reinforcement. So in all sorts of products that you find most engaging, most habit forming, the things that capture your attention and won't let go, both online and offline, by the way, you will find this element of variability, this variable reward. And there are three types. Rewards of the tribe, rewards of the hunt, and rewards of the self. We can talk about that if anybody has questions on that as well. But let me get to the last step of the hook, which is probably the most overlooked but maybe even the most important of the four steps. The last step of the hook is called the investment phase. The investment phase is where the user puts something into the product in anticipation of a future benefit. This is why I love working in technology products as opposed to working with products that are in the physical world, right? These chairs, my clothing, everything in the physical world loses value, it depreciates with wear and tear, right? But things in the digital world, habit forming products, should do the opposite. They should appreciate in value, they should get better and better the more we use them. So when people put something into the product, like data, like followers, content, reputation, these four things, these pieces of investment, make the product better and better with use. And if you're not asking the user to invest in your product to make it better with use, you're missing out on a huge opportunity. The metaphor I like to use here is imagine if we go out, you go out with a friend of yours, right? Take your friend out to lunch, you sit down together for a nice meal and you start disclosing what's happening in your life, how are your kids, how's your significant other, what you're working on at work. And in the course of that conversation, as you're telling the person this information, you realize they're not really paying attention. And the next time you get together for lunch, they totally forgot everything you just told them. Are you going to be a friend with that person for very long? Are you going to continue to invest in that relationship? Of course not. But we do this to our users all the time. We ask them for data, we ask them for information, but we don't improve the product with use. That's what the investment phase is all about. So that's the four fundamental steps of the hook. The trigger, the action, the reward, and the investment that through successive cycles change consumer habits. Now this brings me to the cold hard conclusion. There's this myth in Silicon Valley that the best product wins. That the best product wins. And I'm here to tell you that's a lie. That Silicon Valley graveyards are full of companies that had the best technological solution. It's not the best product at wins, it's the product that forms the monopoly of the mind. The first to mind solution that we turn to with little or no conscious thought, that's the product that captures the market. And we see these examples repeated time and time again. So in order to build these habits, remember these four fundamental steps. The trigger, the action, the reward, investment. And just to end on a high note, just because Dave Marin earlier mentioned mental health, I just want to tell you a quick example. I want to run you through one hook of a company I'm going really proud of to invest it in. This is a company called seven Cups. Seven Cups was started by a guy by the name of Glenn Moriarty. I do these weekly office hours where anybody can just call and we talk for 15 minutes about anything they want to talk about. They just book it through my site. You can as well. So Glenn Moriarty calls me a year and a half ago or so and he says, nir, look, I'm a psychotherapist, had no technical background whatsoever. And he says, I see this problem with a lot of patients who can't make it to my services. They can't get the therapy they need because getting therapy is really hard work. There's the distance to travel, there's the money, there's the social stigma, a lot of work to getting the therapy that people need. So Glenn says, look, I read your book, here's my hook. The internal trigger is loneliness. It's seeking connection. It's when a veteran who's suffering from PTSD needs someone to talk to or a parent of a child with a disability, or any of us, when we're just feeling down, they open this app with one button, they're connected with another person. That's the action phase. How easy is that compared to traditional therapy? The variable reward is rewards of the tribe. Connecting with another human being, having a conversation, having that connection instantly. And the investment, and here's where it gets really interesting, the investment is that the more you are listened to on this service, you're offered the opportunity to be a trained listener yourself. And it turns out a third party study just found that seven cups, people who use seven cups get better, but not just better, they get dramatically better. It's been proven to be as effective as traditional psychotherapy. What an amazing example of how we can use these habits for good. So it's by answering these five fundamental questions. And this is the most important slide of the presentation. These five fundamental question of number one, what is your user's itch? What's the internal trigger? What's the external trigger that prompts your user to action? What's the simplest behavior done in anticipation of the reward? Is the reward fulfilling and yet leaves the user wanting more? And then finally, this last question. What's the investment? What's the bit of work the user does to increase their likelihood of the next pass through the hook? So I wrote the book to be very, very actionable. At the end of every chapter it says, here's the summary. It's this section. On one page it says remember and share. On the other side it says, do this now. I was looking for a book that entrepreneurs would have the time to read. I made it very, very easy and digestible to get through. So I hope you'll look through that later. But for now, let's use the time for questions. I'd love to dive in. Any questions, please? One right here. First thing, you get this little reward here for asking the first question. To encourage you, a little sticker for your laptop. That's for you. Thank you for asking the question. Terrific question. I'm so glad you asked it. The question was, what's the difference between habits and addiction? And Josh Elman mentioned the Atlantic article that just appeared, and I've got some issues with that article. I'm in the article, but I have some issues with it because I think I've seen this backlash recently to technology, specifically this really good technology that we love to use but sometimes we overuse. So let me just be very clear about your question directly of addiction versus a habit. There's a reason I didn't call my book how to Build Addictive Products. I could have. And I always know who didn't read my book because they say, oh, I read your book. It's about how to build addictions, right? No, no, no. I talk specifically about what the difference is between a habit and an addiction. A habit is a behavior done with little or no conscious thought. We have good habits, we have bad habits, addictions. However, the definition of an addiction is a compulsive persistent dependency on a behavior or substance that harms the user. We would never want to build an addictive product. We would never intentionally knowingly want to addict people because that hurts people. So that's the difference. Or as a user, not only as a product maker, it's unethical. But if you think about the frame of reference as you as a user, a lot of people say, oh, I'm addicted to Facebook. We're all addicted. Everybody's addicted. They're really misusing that word because it's not. Unless you meet these two criteria of using a product that you cannot stop using, that's the first test. And harms you. That's the two part test to an addiction. So unless that's really what's happening, these are examples of products that we just like a lot of that are fun. And that's not a problem. That's called progress. I kind of feel like there's this. Sometimes I kind of feel like pulling my hair out when I ask people about the complaints that people have about these products being so good, so wonderful that we want to use them all the time. And that's somehow a bad thing. By and large, that's a great thing. These products enhance our lives. Now, there are some people who are actually addicted. The stats are showing US that about 1 to 2% of the population gets addicted to all sorts of things. All sorts of things. And if it wasn't Facebook, it's booze, it's sex addiction, it's food, there's all kinds of addictions out there. Gambling addictions. But of course, just because these things have the potential to be addictive, right? We've all eaten food. Many of us have had sex, most of us have had sex. We're not sex addicts and food addicts. So clearly there's an interaction between the user and the product. Now, that means that as product designers, I think we have a special responsibility that if we know someone is addicted, meaning they want to stop, but they can't and the product harms them, then I think we do have an ethical responsibility. So I've actually talked to several companies. I've met with Snapchat, I've met with Reddit, I've met with many companies to ask them about how can we do something about this? And I don't have good news for you to say that they've pledged to do anything. But I'm hoping to put more pressure, I hope we all can put more pressure on the industry that if we know someone is addicted, we have a responsibility. So the question is, how would we know, right? If you're an alcohol manufacturer, how would you know if someone's addicted? How would you know who the alcoholics are? You don't know. You have no direct information. The beauty of these interactive technologies is that we do know. We know exactly how much you use and when. So if these companies wanted to do something, and I want to pressure them to do something, they could identify that very small percentage of population that is abusing and they could help them, they could reach out. I'm not saying to be paternalistic, but I think if somebody is just off the charts, you know, if you're on Facebook 40, 50 hours a week, Facebook has a responsibility to say, hey, you know what? Your usage pattern here is indicative of someone who may have a problem. What can we do to help you and offer some resources? Very simple. Move. Facebook wouldn't be harmed. Here's who would be harmed by doing that? Casinos. Casinos can't do that. And many social games, not all of them, but many games can't do that because they thrive on the whales. Not the you's and me's that go to Vegas. And we gamble once in a while or play a social game once in a While. But the people who cannot stop, right? And that, I think is unethical. But for everybody else, I think the responsibility is on us, right? To do two things. Adapt, right? Adapt our use of these technologies to put them in their place. And right now, over the past few years, we've been super excited about how awesome these technologies are. And maybe sometimes we go overboard, myself included. And then the second thing that we do is that we adopt. So we adapt our own behavior and we adopt new technologies. And I think it was Michael who said earlier, the solution to that overuse problem. You know what it is? More technology, right? The solution to people overusing technology is what I call attention retention devices. Products that help us quarantine, put technology in its place, get more done by using new technologies. Actually, I sent Josh an example of. He asked, you know, if anybody can find an example of a company that tells people to stop using it and that actually increases user retention. I did, immediately. The product is Quartz. Does anybody use Quartz, the news app? They do something unbelievably smart. I found that after, you know, I love reading the news, but I stopped reading the news because I couldn't stop. Like, it would be the next story and the next story and the next story. And of course, the monetization model for these sites is page views, right? CPMs. But what quartz did, they did something super interesting. They only give you the top headlines, and then they tell you, okay, you're caught up. Go away. Literally, I just sent Joss a screenshot. It literally says, check in later, right? You're done. And what that did, it did something very interesting. It increased the likelihood of me using this app because I know it just scratches that one itch of their internal trigger is, I don't want to look silly at work. I want to know what's going on in the world, but I don't have time to go super in depth. So just give me the headlines. And then it says, you're done, you're checked in. Go away. Right? So it can actually be a feature. It can actually improve technology to limit use in some ways. Is that a helpful answer? Great. Who's next? Yeah, does that. The way you phrase it, are you saying that we just. Yeah, you get a stick or two. You can pass that back. Speaking of variable rewards, the variable thing is, I say, no, you don't get one. That would be the variable thing. The variable rewards come in two types, and this is actually something I didn't put in the book. I discovered I should have later variable rewards operate in Two circumstances. Some companies, to scratch the user's itch, would want to insert variability, particularly if the internal trigger is boredom. The cure for boredom is entertainment. And variability gamification works really well in making something entertaining. Okay, Other products operate in a condition that is inherently variable. So Uber or Google, they wouldn't want to insert variability into their products because the situation that you're in as a user is already variable. Right? This question of can I get to where I'm going on time? Remember when we used to call taxis by calling a dispatcher? Right? You look in the yellow Pages back when they existed, call a dispatcher and you'd ask the dispatcher, well, how long until the taxi's gonna be here? The answer was always the same. 10 minutes, maybe it was gonna be 15 minutes, maybe 20 minutes, maybe half an hour. Who knew? Because they had no idea. They just say 10 minutes beyond the corner. And meanwhile you're stressed. You have this internal trigger of, can I get to where I'm going on time? Well, here comes Uber with this beautiful Pac man like interface that tells you exactly how far your cab is from you, giving you greater agency and control over something that's inherently variable. Does that make sense? Okay, and then there's another condition here. A lot of people say, well, variable rewards. I'm not sure if I buy it because look, games are full of variable rewards, right? Aren't games full of variable rewards? Right, Gamification, that's by example. But then why are games so bad at keeping users engaged? Think about it, right? Why aren't we all playing Super Mario Brothers and Pac man and farmville? Remember farmville? The fastest growing game in history? Why aren't we all still hooked to Farmville? Zynga used to be a $10 billion company. What happened? Well, let's think about those examples. What was the game that Zynga released after farmville? Anybody remember cityville? And then after cityville was Sheffield, and then frontierville and then farmville too. And it was the same game again and again. And what was once variable became predictable. That's an example of finite variability. It's the same reason why when you see a movie, we don't go watch a movie. Then as soon as the credits roll, we go out in the theater and go back in and see it once again. We already know what's going to happen. The variability, the surprise is gone. That's a finite variable situation. So an experience that becomes more predictable with use has finite variability. And when it's not exciting anymore, it's gone. This is exactly what's happening with Pokemon Go, right? Pokemon Go is falling off a cliff because you play once, twice, three times. You get the idea it's not variable anymore. Whereas what they should have done, I think humbly, they should have added social elements to the play from day one. Because social elements, rewards of the tribe, have an element of infinite variability. Why? Because things are happening with our friends in a much more variable manner. They're going on trips, they're taking pictures of their kids or their pugs, they're posting articles. Think about how interesting Facebook is or Snapchat or Instagram. These feed like mechanisms, right, where there's much more variability about what you might find when you use one of these products. They don't necessarily get old with use, they're infinitely variable. Please. Actually, just to follow up on that.

I think you talked about the variability.

Within Twitter and the hunt for those tweets that are really interesting. But then you look at Facebook and other sites with this medium and they're focused on personalization and optimization to try to get you the best content. And one of the things you say with Twitter is you're looking for the best and actually having some irrelevant content helps with that. So I'm just curious how you think about how some companies are actually focused on optimizing. Whereas you were mentioning how Twitter. Actually it's good to not have the most interesting irrelevant. Yeah. So finding that mix, by the way, I brought enough for everybody, so if you could pass those out, that'd be great. Or just pass them around the room. So this balance of the right amount of the interesting versus the mundane requires a lot of work. I mean, Facebook has a building full of people who do nothing but figure out how to optimize that feed. And of course, the reason Twitter is having so much trouble in a way is that Twitter, the more followers, the more people I follow. That investment phase for Twitter, until recently, made the product worse. Think about the difference when I friend people, because Facebook has always been an algorithmic feed. It makes the product better with use because it's a curated feed. Right. Facebook figures out, oh, what you posted is super awesome. And I think Nir's gonna like it and shows me that versus what somebody else posted. They're not gonna show me, but Twitter, until very recently, the more people I followed, the more polluted my stream got because I saw everything, it wasn't a curated feed. And so finding that balance, figuring out how to present the right amount of interesting to mundane, that ratio is incredibly important. Very, very important. And it's. There's no like magic formula I can give you other than that's trial and error. That's where we have machine learning to help us figure out that ratio. Please.

Hi. So I have a kind of applied question. If a product development org is looking at their product and they want to apply the concepts from your book, do you think that it's better to say, look at the whole user experience 360 degrees to look for the triggers, the actions of Word and analyze it from that point of view or to take a specific kind of feature or thing that you're working on and apply it there or.

Or both.

Because I'd like to take this idea. I've read your book, I'm a total fan girl and I want to introduce it to the whole team and I want to get everybody thinking about it in their everyday work as they develop products. But it's one thing to say here.

Go read this book.

And it's another thing to get people to actually do it in a day to day.

There's two points where this is useful, I think. And the reason I did the first place I think it's useful is my last company, we bought Lean Startup and Customer Development, Hook, line and Sinker. We adopted it, we loved it and it works. I'm a huge fan. Steve Blank. Eric Ries. Huge fan. But the problem we always had was with one of the three steps in Eric Ries's loop. Right? Does everybody know the three steps? Build, measure and learn. Right. We've all heard this before. Build, measure, learn. Where does all the blood, sweat and tears and money all go? Build, measure or learn. Building. Right. It's the building part that's the hard part. Measuring and learning, that's fun. That can take hours, if not a day to measure and learn. That's easy. Building is where the blood, sweat and tears and money all go. And until recently, we would build based on whims. When we prioritize our feature set of what goes in and what goes out, it was what the loudest customer says we should build or what the hippo says. Does everybody know who the hippo is? Who's the hippo? The highest paid person's opinion. Right. That's the hippo. So we would build whatever the hippo said we should build. Or even worse, we'd build what the investors say we should build. That's even the worst of all three. Never do that. Just kidding. So I offended somebody. Sorry about that. So I think there's a better way. And the better way is to not just look at what customers are able to tell us, not just their articulatable needs, but to dig into consumer psychology to tell us what makes people click and what makes them tick in a way that reveals more information about them than they know themselves. That's something that only consumer psychology can give us. So how do we apply it? There's two places that this is very useful. One, in the very, very, very early days when it's still a paper and pencil sketch, before you commit code, of course, before you even hire designers or do any pencil sketches, the core experience, the behavior that you want to turn into a habit. Answer these five questions. You can save yourself a lot of heartache by answering that core habit, that keystone habit. How do we answer these five questions in place? The other place that I see this applied is when it's almost too late, right? I'll get a call from a VC that says, we put money in this company, it was growing, but nobody's sticking around, right? It's a leaky bucket. How do we plug the leaks? And then this becomes a diagnostic tool. Then we can say, okay, what's missing in the hook and how can we improve it? Again, looking at these five fundamental questions of these four phases. So that's the two places it's applied. Does that kind of answer your question? Did you have a follow up? It looked like you're okay. Feel free to ask. Yeah. So that's where it's the most useful and where I see it applied the most often. Please. You spoke about investments into products. What was your early take on Snapchat? Since they didn't minus memories, which is today, there was no sort of investment. Yeah, well, I think the investment was people following you. Right. The fact that you could see that new people were following you, that's investment every time I use it. The Snapchat story, I think is fascinating from how many things in their interface they broke convention with is phenomenal. Like the fact that they land you on not a feed, but the photo app. Right. They have made the action that they want the habit to take a picture as easy as humanly possible. And of course, the variable reward is what do I do with that picture when I apply this filter or that filter? How can I make myself look? I write about it. By the way, one of the forms of investment that I didn't mention in my talk is also skill acquisition. So when you think about the fact that people won't switch from using Photoshop, even though there's lots of tools out there that do better things than Photoshop in many ways. They already know Photoshop. They invested in learning that skill. Well, something really interesting about Snapchat is that the way people acquire the skill in Snapchat is always person to person, right? When somebody first uses Snapchat for the first time, they're confused. Where's the drop down menu, where's the tutorial, where's the overlay that tells me what to do? They have no idea. They have to. They have forced you to go to a friend because that's where the product was born out of, out of high schools, right? That's where they started getting critical mass at first. And it has to be something. Let me show you this trick. Let me show you how to do it. And then of course, people go onto YouTube to see how to do stuff. They, you know, you earn credibility in the community in a way by showing the things that you can do that maybe someone else hasn't figured out how to do. So that's the, I think that's the investment. And then of course, now they have the point system as well. They've made it even more explicit so that you know how your points are doing. You can exactly see that. And if you stopped using the service altogether, your points disappear. Now it becomes hard to leave. One more question as you think about different triggers, do you think most products have like one primary trigger, one primary habit? Especially in mobile apps, that tends to be the case. But I'm just curious what you think about that. Right. So I think there's a keystone habit to products. You have to figure out what's the most important behavior when you ask yourself in that action phase, what's that behavior that we want done with little or no conscious thought? I think on Facebook it was scroll through pictures. It's always been about photos. And I think that's why Instagram was such a competitive threat and why Facebook had to buy Instagram because it was a threat to its keystone habit. Now, once you nail that key habit, we can, through successive cycles, through the hook, we can teach you new and increasingly complex behaviors. Right? But that first initial habit of this is what the user does with little or no conscious thought on a frequent enough basis to form a habit that we've got to nail. We have to make that crystal clear. And I think to do that, we have to figure out what that internal trigger is. So when in their life does this frequently occurring itch happen? Right. So Jack Dorsey talks about how they create these user narratives at Twitter, at Square, about how here's this user, and here's where they would use the product and here's what they're doing right before they would take out the app and start using it. So that's super important. So that narrative technique is all about finding those internal triggers. Great. Did anybody not get a hook sticker? I have more, by the way, if you didn't get any, I'll pass them out. I'll have some afterwards. And if I didn't get to your question, I'm happy to take some afterwards. I'll stick around for a few more hours. And with that, thank you very much and good luck. Thank you.