Pinterest CEO Ben Silbermann Fireside with Sarah Tavel | #ProductSF

At Product sf, Greylock's Sarah Tavel chats with Pinterest co founder Ben Silberman about distribution, hiring and scaling teams, and what makes a strong product manager. This presentation was recorded at Product sf, an event hosted by Greylock Partners that brings together founders, PMs and product leaders to talk about the challenges of building new, innovative products that change lives and create habits. For more podcasts, please visit news.greylock.com thank.

You so much, Ben, for joining us.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

So Ben, let's start at the beginning for you, which is you graduate from college and when's the moment when you start to realize like, I want to spend my time building products for people?

It was actually probably in college. I don't think I realized that I wanted to spend time building products, but. But I just really fell in love with the Internet, which sounds so crazy, but I'd never had broadband growing up and I just remember having my own laptop and just loving the idea that there was this thing that could connect people and give everyone access to the same information. I was really into that. So even in college I started making kind of like toys with my friends. My parents are doctors, my sisters are doctors as well. My folks are ophthalmologists. So the first thing that I made was this little web app with a friend and it let you try on glasses virtually because I noticed like at my parents office everyone would try on glasses, but they weren't prescription yet, so they couldn't see themselves in the mirror. So I was like, oh, wouldn't it be cool if you could do it virtually? But that's how it started. I didn't really think of it as a job you could do, but I thought it'd be really fun. I just found it really fun. I guess that's how I would say it.

So, you know, you're known obviously now for Pinterest, but there were a lot of products that happened before Pinterest ranging from, from this example to a quiz app that you've talked about and even Tote, which is actually the precursor to Pinterest as I know it and how I got to know you guys. Were there any learnings that you had through those different apps or different experiences that you tried out that kind of led you to Pinterest in some way?

Sure, yeah. I mean, I built a whole bunch of different things and I mean, I could repeat some of the learnings, but a lot of them are not going to be interesting. It's like, oh, if you build a quiz app, you should learn about caching in your database instead of just running things directly. So, yeah, there are a bunch of things that I learned. I think there were two things that really kind of stuck out to me. One was at some point I realized I was doing them all part time. And it doesn't really apply to the folks here, but I realized maybe a big reason why they weren't going farther was because I treated them as this part time thing. It actually takes a lot of work to make a really good product. And I was in love with this fantasy that I'd heard about of people that had a full time job and then they had all this extra income coming from this night project they had. And that's a true thing. People actually do that. I just wasn't one of the people that could pull it off. I think the second thing is I think I just developed a better sense for what were the products that resonated with me personally. That's a very kind of subjective thing. But I really developed appreciation for products that were extremely simple to use. I really began to appreciate products that they had something that was a little bit emotional about them, that you kind of felt something when you used them. And so those are all really soft learnings. But I think that they all, looking back, kind of played an important role. I don't think that Pinterest would have been designed and built the way it was today had I not tried a bunch of things and they didn't even like flame out. They just never, they never really, they never went anywhere.

So, you know, Pinterest, so talking about going kind of all in and, you know, putting everything aside and really just focusing on one idea. When you and Evan and Paul got together and started to iterate on Pinterest, you know, now we like see the Pinterest grid and it's become like so emblematic of the product. But actually there were dozens and dozens of iterations that you guys did. I mean, I like remember going through this presentation that Evan gave and it was like, there's probably 20 different versions of completely different layouts for the grid. It was a very intentional process, it seems. So maybe talk us through that. What was that creative process for you guys? And what was it that made you feel like, all right, we've got the version we want to ship?

I guess stepping back, the concept behind Pinterest was always very clear from the very beginning. Even the very first drawings, like on paper, we're like, we're boards, we're going to have pins, we're going to have an account, you're going to be able to save things, you're going to follow people. That was all really crisp. But I think what Evan and I talked about a lot were what were the essential elements that actually really mattered in this thing. One of the essential elements we realized was like, if the collection doesn't look cool, no one's going to build a collection. And the collection also has to be designed to consume information. Evan's a designer by training. He was in school at Columbia studying architecture. And he took kind of his love of front end engineering. He was a pretty decent front end engineer. And his love of kind of classic grid design and graphic design, which has a long history in print. And he brought that to bear. And so there was a huge amount of iteration on that. We knew that eventually this thing was a very empty platform, so it would matter tremendously who used it, what the quality of content was at the beginning. And so that was something else that we identified as really essential. And that's something I still believe. I think I've heard this mantra like that, oh, you should ship as soon as possible. You should be embarrassed by the first thing you ship. But if you put out something where one of those essential elements is subpar, you will learn nothing. Except that people don't like subpar products. And you won't be able to, like, you won't be able to learn anything. It's like designing a car without brakes. It's like, what did you learn? It's like, brakes are important, but you haven't learned if any of the other great ideas that you had actually had value and resonance with the audience. And so I have a little bit of a different belief, but I think it's. I think there are a lot of ways. There are a lot of ways that you can build things and be successful. But that's my personal bias.

Was it like just the two of you in a room kind of revving, or were you bringing a lot of people in, or how did you go from each of these versions to the next?

Yeah, I mean, I was here in the Bay Area. I was in Palo Alto, and in this little apartment which you visited as an investor one day. Evan was in New York, actually, and we would just go back and forth, like all day long on the thing. And actually we weren't running it by people. We just wanted to build something that we thought was cool. That was it. I mean, there was no data because there was no one using it. So there was nothing to collect. It was really just. Did we feel like, this is something that we would be excited about using, that we would be proud to show our friends. And that was kind of the core thing.

And so then you press the ship it button, basically, you. You tell your friends. And then the other thing people like to talk about in Silicon Valley is just like this. It just took off, you know, but that obviously so rarely happens. And then the big question that you always have as a founder is, well, do I keep on pushing or do I change? Like, how did you. When you had that moment of putting it out there, and it doesn't just inflect, what got you to keep pushing it forward and seeing how to. How to make it have that growth?

Yeah, it's a tricky question. I mean. I mean, truthfully, like, I thought it was pretty cool. You know, when I looked at it, I was like, this is pretty cool. Like, I consider myself a relatively normal person, and I thought there was a better chance that we hadn't put it in front of the right people than something was terribly off in the core concept. Because the core concepts are very simple. It's like collect things. You, like, look at collections that other people have created. Like, that felt like not. Not a radical. A radical idea. So that's, I guess, what gave us conviction, coupled with. I don't think I had exceedingly high expectations either, which actually makes a big difference. If you expect, like, we will have a million users in 12 months. If you fall short of that, you're like, shit. Like, you know, we're screwed. So part of what led to low expectations may have been just, like, a history of lack of success also, like, we just were not burning money, like, at all, basically. Like, no one was getting salaries like the two guys, you know, that were helping. It was like, bring your own computer. That was like our perk to work with us. It's like, oh, you can have whatever setup you want, so as long as you bring your own. And then there were a few people that really loved it. I mean, there were a few people in those early days that, you know, they would write to us if the service went down. They would write and be like, why is it down? They would offer suggestions. And I think that gave us kind of the confidence that we had something and we should just keep going on it.

And you try to kind of look into who those people were and try to find them. Or then where did you, like, what did you do? If there were any things in particular that got kind of the thing to start working in a way that you could really see.

Yeah, what we noticed is that the people that were using it early on, a lot of them were people that were interested in lifestyle use cases. Decorating design had probably a lot to do with the way the product was built. And so then the first thing I did was like, well, who are these people? What do they read? Where do they gather? And I ended up going to a conference where it seemed like a lot of those people were in Utah and met a bunch of bloggers there. And we ended up doing a marketing campaign actually called Pin It Forward. And the way it worked was that I lined up 300 bloggers. The service was invite only at the time. And what we gave them was this chance to be part of this new product. We gave them invites for their readers, and we lined them up on 30 consecutive days. So collectively, we didn't think about it this way. A lot of people read those blogs. And so for a month, every single blog that you were reading was a blogger who you cared about personally, saying, hey, I've created this account on this new service. Here it is, and here's a blog post about that account. And so that. That actually marked a pretty important moment for us because that was when we started to see it growing, not because of, like, the invite system, but just because, like, month on month, more and more people were hearing about it, and then they were really enjoying the product. And the quality of that content was extremely high. I spent a ton of time making sure that every one of those early users had a really good experience. And we set very strict expectations on what was in and what was out of the service. So you couldn't upload personal photos to it. Like, we blocked pinning from Facebook. We required that you had a description, even though it was a ton of work, because we felt like that would be an important part.

We rotate emails friction into the product in a way, just to create that kind of early the type of content that you want in the experience.

Yeah, I mean, I always thought, like, when I use products, like, especially products where there are other user accounts, you basically model your behavior off the other users. Right. This is like, I don't know, if you're in a bathroom in college campus and there's graffiti in the stall, you're like, oh, I guess I can put graffiti in the stall. And if you're in a normal place, you're like, I don't do that. So we felt like it was really important that every person would then set the example for the next person, and we made them feel like that too. So when you joined you'd get this email from me that's like, hey, we're welcoming you to the community. It's a big responsibility. We want to make this place a really special place. And I think that that served us well in the early days of the company.

And a lot of people now, like, when you're starting a company, like we had Reid and James talk about this earlier. It's like, day one, you start the company, you should be thinking about how to build distribution. Distribution into the product. Was that something that you guys thought about from the. In the. In the beginning of Pinterest, or did it come. Did it come later in the process?

Well, I mean, day one, the first thing you should think about is like, is, are you building a good product? And if it's a really good product, I think that some amount of distribution will follow. I just really, sincerely believe that because everyone has this, like, computer in their pocket or so, some form of distribution will follow because they'll be like, hey, look at this really cool thing. And if that's not there, then none of the rest of it, it matters. Like, literally doesn't matter at all. And then from there, I think that what you have to do is look at the natural behaviors that are happening and see, is there a way to amplify those behaviors? There are companies that have done it in spite of that, so they've invented mechanics. But generally I think those products are kind of like skeezy. And because they basically do something that's not in line with what the users do, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. But I've never really loved those products at a very personal level.

You know, Pinterest, like, it's now a company with hundreds of employees, and you, like, you know, you're obviously a very product centric CEO. And in the beginning, it was you, you know, and Evan figuring out what the product experience is. Now, obviously, it's a. It's a very different world for you whether. Whether you like it or not. And so what do you think about or how do you think about your role now in the product process that happens at Pinterest?

Man, this has been so hard for me. Actually, you know, I think that the right way, the right mindset that you should hold is that the people that are building the product, you've hired them for a reason. Like, they have amazing judgment, they're generally far more talented. And your job is to give enough clarity of vision that they can align their talents against that, and then to set a common expectation of the company of like, what's the level of rigor that we should hold? What are the principles that are important that we're collectively accountable to? And the reason I say it's hard is two things. Like, one is just, like, psychologically, like, it's hard because a lot of people start companies because they really love products and you don't have to take your hands off it. And I still am really involved in product, but you're not going to get the best work out of people if they feel like everything can be overwritten. And the second reason it's hard is like a skill thing, which is, I mean, I don't know, like, I know how to swim, but if you put me in a conference room and like, ask me to teach people how to swim, like through words like super hard. And so I would and sometimes stall this problem where, like, I have trouble generalizing the principle. I'm just like, I want that button there. But that's a really, like, highly disempowering thing. And it kind of trains people not to put the best work forward because, like, anyway, it's going to get overwritten. I think that's really hard. I think that if Evan and I are doing our job really well, which we try to, but working on it, I think the best thing that we could do is to incredibly consistently first tell the story of what we want to build and why we want to build it, and then explain the general things that we think are great experiences that need to be common, and then let people align against that and then let them define how they're going to choose to measure whether we're getting closer or farther away from that. But it's a hard job. It's easier said than done, right?

I mean, I remember what must have been one of the first product reviews at Pinterest where you, like, I, as like a brand new product manager come in and it's like the first time that you guys are letting go of the product. Like, the product, right?

Yeah.

And it must have been, I mean, I just putting myself in your shoes now, like, it must have been such an uncomfortable part. Like just an uncomfortable thing to go through. I mean, do you, when you look back at however many years ago it is now a process for you of like starting from. You are pushing every pixel. You're deciding what the copy is. You, like, decide what we're building to the place that we're at now. Are there phases in your mind or is there part, like anything that you can share on the process that you went through to get there?

Yeah. I mean, I think that there's one moment of a lot of product founders struggle with where they tend to confuse the feeling of being indispensable to something with actually creating the most value. Because, like, I think everyone who builds something and starts to grow, you feel like, oh, my God, this thing started to grow. And you're like, oh, well, the only way I can keep rent here, like, I don't know how to be a CEO. I don't anything at finance. I'd never been a product manager is like, keep doing what I was doing. And so I think there's a point where you really have to let go of that and just have the faith and the belief that if you're good at hiring people and you've done your job communicating, they'll produce something that's just better. Their job is to produce something way better. And then after that, I just think it's a horrific process of trial and error where you just fuck up and someone with the courage to come up is like, hey, that product review is terrible. You were awkward. It made me awkward. It made my team feel unappreciated. You weren't clear. You said something different than you said two weeks ago.

I don't know what you're talking about.

I don't know. But, like, like, literally, that's a really. I mean, it's. It's. You really need to create some people that you trust enough that are willing to give you that feedback. I mean, one of my biggest challenges was always, like, I'm pretty good with, like, two people, and then each marginal person that each incremental person I add, I feel like I become less effective in communication. And all of a sudden, every single product review had nine people. And I literally would have trouble, like, processing. Processing the information coming in and communicating it back out and, like, not looking grumpy at the same time, which has this crazy, like, negative feedback loop into the room. And so I think that process is really challenging.

It must be like, when you're the CEO of a company, you, like, I remember you talking about this. You don't realize that even just a little facial expression can be taken. And, like, you know, I'll remember coming out of product reviews, and some of the engineers will be like, well, Ben said this and now we've got to go that way. When it could have been just an off the cuff comment for you. That must have been a process too. I mean, how do you think about when you feel like, you know, something strong? You're like, let's go that way versus actually wanting the team to figure it out themselves. Like, how do you toe that line?

I mean, I think the biggest thing that you can do is be crystal clear about the minimum set of things that are hard decisions and let go of the things where you're not sure. And if you can be crystal clear on, hey, this is not a suggestion. This is like, what we're going to do. And then everything else, like, empower the team to do it. I think people respond actually really well to that. And I think when you found a company, like, part of the fun is you're kind of one of the team, like your peers. And at some point, like, if you don't reconcile the fact that your job is to lead and you're actually not a peer, I don't think you can be effective. That's something. Honestly, it's really hard. It's a really hard part for both you, and it's a really hard part for members of the team that were there when there were eight people and you really were peers and you were just like, oh, we're building this thing. But if you don't step into that role, that vacuum creates a tremendous amount of churn. And that's something that I think I'm still working on getting better at.

The role of product in a company differs by company. So in some companies, they talk about the product manager. Maybe some people here think of themselves this way as, like, I'm the CEO of the product. In other places, it's more like, you know, the engineers are running the show and then the product manager is there to just kind of support and enable. I mean, you've. I know you've thought a lot about this. Like, what's. How do you think about the product role at pin? Like, how. Have you thought about evolving kind of what the role is of product manager in the company?

Yeah, I mean, I think that one mistake people make is thinking there's just one kind of product manager, which is as ridiculous as being like, there's one kind of designer. Right? Like, you know, the graphic designers, interaction designers, system designers, and product management's the same. I think the minimum role that a product manager has to play is they have to be incredibly clear about what we're building and why we're building it and motivate people towards that thing. And, like, the number one thing that I look for now when I hire product managers is are they incredibly clear about communication and are they good at telling stories that can resonate with really diverse people? If you're not clear there's no way you can succeed regardless of what type of product manager you are. I think past that it really depends on the nature of the product product being built and how your skill sets knit with the other skill sets on the team. And there are some people that are amazing at completely green field, pie in the sky. I'm going to sit down with a designer until two in the morning and we're going to invent something that no one's ever seen before. There are some people that are extraordinary at taking a goal and a quantitative output and just putting so much structure and rigor around it that the team is free to run experiments and trials at an incredibly fast pace. And they drive pace. But I do think it varies. People told me, oh, is the product manager the CEO of the product? And I'm always not sure because I don't really know if the CEO is a particularly well defined job. So I feel like it's just replacing one abstraction with another abstraction, but a different one. So I think it's a hard question, but I think clarity. I honestly feel like storytelling is one of the primary skills of really great product manager. Because if you can get all these diverse people crystal clear on a goal and fired up about it, generally a lot of the details take care of themselves.

So then you're interviewing someone, a prospective product manager. How do you interview for that?

I'll ask them about a product that they built and I'll just see how deep we can go down in it. Like, what roadblocks did you hit? How did you get the team motivated? What was the goal? What was an alternative goal that it could have been? What did you measure and how much of that metric that you measured accounted for it? Like, was it a good proxy for the goal? What would you do if, like you were unclear? I mean, I would, I'll just see how far down they can go. And I'm not really like, obviously I won't know their product as well as they will, but I just want to get a sense for, is this a person, A, who has a history of shipping things that are good and B, like, seems to be able to communicate and bring people along with that product?

Is it's, I suppose, a craft where you can just always just continue to improve your ability to create incredible products? Like, how are you pushing yourself to just continue to improve and evolve as a product leader?

I'm actually just trying to get better as a leader. I feel like that's my core job and to get better as a recruiter and get better as someone that can inspire people to do really good work. But I use a ton of products, and, like, that's just something that, like, everyone who knows me knows this about me. I think I'm still kind of in love with technology products. And I have all these phones at home, and they're all loaded up with all these crazy products. They're, like, set to different country codes. And I go to all the different app stores. I don't know, I just want to use them, honestly, because I'm just curious what it is that people are enjoying. And I think that right now there are a lot of amazing products being built all over the world and not just software products. Like, you know, we were talking before. Like, I think video games are. Which software are amazing. I think there's a bunch of really, you know, there's just a ton to learn. Like, one thing that I've been trying to, like, understand more are more commodity products. And, like, how do they become dominant in their space? Like, Like, I was reading this story about Ben and Jerry's ice cream. I'm like, how did, like, how does an ice cream product, like, become dominant? It, like, doesn't disrupt anything. In fact, it's, like, more expensive. And I don't know, I think I'm just, like, curious about how that comes to bear. And I think there's a lot that can be learned. I mean, software especially is a very, very young and very immature field. And so I think a lot of the patterns have not been well developed yet.

Well, why don't we turn it over to questions from the audience? Any questions?

Hey, Ben, are you still sending product news today? If so, kind of. How are you handling yourself in those? I am in product reviews. So what do I do? So, first of all, like, I press people extremely hard on why we're building the product, and they should be able to describe it succinctly and clearly in a way that it doesn't matter if you're quantitative or a designer, not the designers aren't quantitative, or if you're a visual person or an art, like, you should really viscerally understand it. And then, you know, I do basically, basically two things. Like, I ask questions about things that I don't think make sense. And then if there's something that I feel like is outside of the guardrails of where we go, I try to say, I think this is the direction you should go. Hopefully, if I'm doing my job, the number of times that I'm doing that is always shrinking. And I'm really lucky to have a great leader of product and a great head of engineering that have sort of the weight of that. And so a lot of it for me is actually just staying educated on how the whole group is thinking inside of pushing it in the right direction. There are a few products that I'm personally very involved in, but there are not like. And I'm very involved in them, but it's not the majority of products. How did you guys decide to switch.

From Tote to Pinterest?

Question is, how did we decide to switch? So prior to Pinterest, we'd formed a company and we'd taken funding trying to build catalogs on iPhone called Tote. I guess two things. One, no one was using it and in fact we couldn't even get it approved by the store. And so there was like nothing to do. There was literally nothing to do. We were just like making like fabricated plans about like, oh, this is what we're going to do when we release the application. And then we started working on Pinterest, honestly, because I was bored. And we thought this would be this really fun project. And I was just so frustrated waiting to get this thing approved. And we just wanted to build it. We decided to cut over when we were getting no traction on the first thing and we were starting to get a little bit of traction on Pinterest. That's when the cutover happened. And that was actually a really nerve wracking moment because we had to tell these investors and our first angel investors were not esteemed Silicon Valley investors. They were like random people that we had met and we were terrified that they would like be like, no, we need all of our money back. And I didn't realize that they had probably already written it off. I remember writing that email and being so afraid that I wrote this like overly long email about why we were switching because I literally thought they were going to get it and my phone would blow up and they'd be like, I want my $15,000 back. I wanted phone catalogs, not some bullshit website. So I was really actually happy and I'm still thankful that they were supportive kind of through that entire transition. What was the time frame on the time you spent on tow? And we said no users. Pinterest had a little bit of user traction. Is that like tens, hundreds, thousands? I think we were really slow. I mean, I think more than six months in, it was under a few thousand people. We worked on Tote for better part of, I don't know, seven, eight months. But that's inclusive of like finding engineers to help us build it and things like that. Out of all the years that you've.

Evolved the product, is there an example.

That you could talk through, like installation.

Existential product question that you and the.

Organization wrestle with and pick a direction on whether you'd like to write one.

Or the wrong one?

Yeah, you know, a really interesting one for us was, you know, when we launched Pinterest. My theory was that Pinterest would be very, very social, that you'd use it and follow your friends and you'd get this facet on your friends interests. And early on what we realized was there was some of that, but actually what people really cared about were the recommendations. And there were some people you cared about, but they weren't necessarily your friends or at least not all of your friends. And so we had to make this decision of like, are we going to like push a lot more recommendations that we believe that you're going to enjoy into the product? And today the majority of pins that people see in their home feed and certainly the ones they engage with the most are recommendations. But that's a pretty fundamental difference. And it's something that actually there's a cohort of people that like really hate. They're like, why are you sending me these recommendations? And we know that people actually engage with those recommendations, but they hate it because there's a discontinuity between what they expected and frankly what the product design conveys to this day. That's something we need to work on and what they were seeing. And whenever there's that discontinuity, you should expect that people will be upset about it. But that's a pretty fundamental one that we still are kind of looking at today.

Anybody else, what would you say is.

Like has been the most stressful time for you from like starting or the scariest? Oh my God. I mean, I'm a pretty like, Joe, come on. I'm a pretty tightly wound human being, just to be honest with you. Gosh, the most stressful. Maybe you can also balance it with Ben.

I will say that once I asked Ben in a Q and A, like, you know, what do you worry about? And I was like, I a 10 minute answer.

I said too much. Yeah. My team was just like, you need to tone it down. I'll tell you the times that I get the most stressed out. I have fundamental confidence that Pinterest as a product is something that can create a lot of value for a lot of people. I am 100% convicted in it. I have no doubt. I think when I get most stressed is when I feel like I'm not sure how to orient people on the team towards their greatest strengths. And I tend to overestimate the downside of changing people's roles or communicating and underestimating how much people just want to be in a role where they know they're having a ton of impact and their skills are being utilized the best. And I guess that's something that comes as you become a more experienced manager. I'd never managed anyone before, but those are the times that I'm like most miserable. When I'm like, oh my gosh, I've got this person, they have this strength, but it's not aligned here. Should I make a switch or not? Far and away, those are the times that I'm personally the most stressful.

What about the other side? One of the highlights for you?

What are the highlights for me? I mean, I'm actually really excited right now. I mean, this is a really fun part of the year. We're planning our next 18 months and we kind of revisit an 18 month thing every six months. And what I'm really excited about is I feel like we're still learning a lot about the product. And, you know, at its core, when I think about Pinterest, it's a discovery service. You know, it's supposed to help you understand what are the right choices about how you live, about what you wear for yourself. And I think that as we've gotten more comfortable with all of the nuance of that, it's become a lot clearer what to build. I mentioned that we used to stress a lot about we should look like Facebook. It should be super social. And ironically now I think one of the great things about Pinterest is that it's really about you. There's so many services that are pushing you to project a specific image. And Pinterest is a very unique place in that there are other people there. But you're primarily thinking about what are my tastes and my aspirations. So that's really exciting. And it's really exciting to me as well that when I look across not just my direct team, but past that everyone is way better at their job than I would be. Way better. And Evan and I joke about that all the time, that we would never get hired back into the company. But that feels really good because. Because the pressure is not just on you. There's always pressure on the leaders. The pressure is kind of on an entire company to build something. I think that's Something that makes me really happy every day.

Yeah.

I think of Pinterest as a product with a specific demographic. I don't know if that's actually supported by the data, but I'm curious if that's something that you thought of early on or if you saw it organically and how new product that you. Yeah, I mean, I think the perception of Pinterest is that it's used by women in the Midwest to save photos of Ryan Gosling or something, and there are women in the Midwest saving photos of vinegar. But the truth is that, first, I think it's more diverse than people realize, both in the interests and in the demographics. So more than half of the users are outside the US and there's a huge variety of interest. And I think what's cool about the service, frankly, is that, I mean, we cherish the fact that people use it to save photos, and we cherish the fact people use it for things that are crafty. But it is true that more women use the service than men. And I think that there are two reasons for that. The first is because early on, we weren't attentive to personalization. So when you use it, we just showed you the most popular content. And so it just, like people, attract, like people, and there was, like, a very clear message that you send when all the popular items are pinned by women. You're like, oh, this isn't a place for me. So that's the first reason, and kind of a brand would follow along that I think. The second thing is there is something about the product, and I can't put my finger on exactly what it is, mainly because I don't know enough about core gender differences in the world to say confidently about it. But there's obviously something about the product that resonates more. And that experience of thinking about what's in my future, being in a place where it makes you feel confident about who you are in your tastes, that I do think resonates with women. But my hope and my dream for the company is that we can build the discovery service for everyone in the world. And I think we have to evolve the product, and we have to get better at personalization to actually accomplish that.

Thank you.