Reinventing Customer Service with Gladly Co-Founders Joseph Ansanelli and Michael Wolfe | Greymatter

Hi, this is Jerry Chen, partner at Greylock, and I'm here with Joseph Antonelli, my partner, co founder, CEO of Gladly, and Michael Wolf, VP of engineering and co founder of Gladly. Michael, Joseph, thanks for coming.

Thanks for having us. Yeah, thanks for having us.

So this is a kind of interesting story. It's one of probably a series of incubated companies started within the confines or within the brains of Greylock. And maybe we want to talk about that. But even before we talk about the founding, Gladly, you two have a history going back two or three lives, if you will. Michael, why don't you talk about how you first met Joseph and how this relationship was born?

Okay. Well, I'm one of those strange Silicon Valley animals who keeps doing this. You go to a company, it works out. You do another one. You do another one. I met Joseph at what was my second company called Kana, which happens to be in the same market that we're going after now, which I think we'll talk a little bit about. This was 1999. Khana was just about to go public. I was running engineering for the company at the time, and this great company came along that both filled this big gap in our product portfolio as well as brought a bunch of great people to the company, which turned out to be Connectify, which is a company that Joseph founded and was running as well. So. So the Companies merged in 1999, right before our IPO. Joseph ran marketing for Khan. After the IPO, I ran engineering. And I think that we realized that that engineering and marketing and product management relationship is one of the most crucial ones at any company. It's also really hard to get right. And when you find somebody you can work with where you kind of have a melding of the minds, the result is, hey, let's figure out a way to do something else. And that's what turned into our next company.

I always call that product engineering creative tension. You want health and respect, but you want to push each other, make it better. That creative tension actually makes things better. Joseph, you're also one of these startup junkies, just like Michael. Kendra, spirit, this is your third or fourth time starting company. Maybe let's get your side of the story and how you first met Mr. Wolf.

The circumstances are what Mike described, which is Kanna and Connectify getting together. And I think that the key about the relationship is true what he says, which is when you find someone who is a good complement to your set of skills and you figure out a way when you might have that. I wouldn't say it's tension, but sort of that push and pull between the relationship, that yin and the yang, you know, those kinds of relationships are really hard to find and to do them in a way that they can survive.

When you pick a co founder. So when you met Michael, and then we'll talk about Vantu in a bit, what would those aspects of yours or either weaknesses or blind spots or things you're not strong at that you felt like Michael made you better at?

I mean, I think that the thing that works about our relationship is at the end of the day, most technology companies are about building great products and selling great products. And we both have overlap in those areas. So we respect each other, yet we both have strengths in different parts of that area that we work super well together. So for example, if I'm on the road for three days, I don't stress about what's happening with the product and engineering and with the customer deployments. Like, I just have a ton of confidence that Mike as my partner makes sure all those things keep working really well. And I think that, I think one of the keys to success in technology companies is it comes down a lot to culture. And when you have a very shared vision of the culture of the kind of company you want to build, starting with the founders, that makes a huge difference. And I think one of the things, actually several of the things that I think think we share is one, just a really high respect and regard for the importance of the team and people and recruiting. And Mike's taught me a ton about those sorts of things. And also just a focus around customer success. At the end of the day, the best culture for our kinds of companies are ones that's not technology driven, not sales driven, but really is how are we together? Sales, product, engineering focused on making those customers successful. And that's just one of the things I love about working with Mike.

So Kana Connectivy 1999 maybe for the folks that aren't as familiar with that generation technologies. Can you talk more about what KANA was and what's the history of Kana?

Well, this is where some of the younger people at the company al talk about Kana. And of course I get the blank stare, which is what's that? I'll then talk about the dot com bubble and the things that were happening back in the late 90s and the fact that companies didn't have a website in many cases up until 1995 and they were trying to figure out how to get online. And I'll still get the blank stare from Some of the younger folks at the company where just the. I think it's hard to overstate the world. Going from no Internet, no websites, no email, to all at once, every business, not just.com businesses, but we had customers like General Electric and Cisco and the big auto companies trying to figure out how do we talk to our customers online? First of all, how do we build a website if our customers then want to email us or search a knowledge base or start a chat session with us? There was an explosion in products kind of back in the late 90s and a few companies that took on that market, of which Kana ended up being the biggest, which is how do you help, especially B2C companies respond to and interact with their customers online. And Kana was started in 96 and I ran engineering all the way from the beginning there. I was the second employee of the company, ended up going public in 99, got up to about 200 million run rate in 2000, 2001. That was what you can think of as kind of the first explosion of. Let's figure out Omnichannel online digital customer support for high volume of consumers. Here we are now, almost 20 years later, not enough has happened in that market. In fact, we still run into a lot of companies that are using Kana and are using the products kind of of the mid to late 90s. That's the big opportunity that we'll talk about.

That's a great summary of that first generation where companies first gone online, put up websites and they begin to rethink what this meant for customer support. Then 17 years later, you guys found, gladly, Joseph, what is it about why now, this time, this inflection point, be it mobile, cloud or chat, what was the opportunity you saw that said, you know, it's time for this next generation of customer support technologies.

I think there was really two big things. The first is the trends around consumer communications. And in 1995 and 1996, the world moved for the first time from phone and in person as the channels of support to basically email. And if you just think about five years ago, how differently we communicate from five years ago to today, those changes about how consumers communicate, it still continues to change. And we talk about this idea of the 21st century consumer. And by that we don't mean a millennial, we mean someone from 18 to 80, anyone who's basically a purchaser, a consumer. And if you think about the way we all communicate, I tell the story all the time how I communicate with my wife. I call her, I email her, I Text her. Sometimes we're on Twitter doing some DM about some topic that we think is interesting, or Facebook Messenger. We have this app we use in our kids, schools that we talk about in all of those conversations. It's really about my relationship with my wife. It's not about the text or the email or the phone call or the chat. I mean, that's just a tool, if you will. And that was the first thing that we noticed. And the second one was when you look at actually all the legacy technology that's out there to do customer service, they were not born in that world of the mobile era where that's the way people communicate. They're born in this legacy, actually, that goes back nearly 100 years to the origination of this idea of a case or ticket. And cases were first adopted by hospitals in the early 1900s as a way to manage you when you're in the hospital. This idea that you, your case file and the bed were always all together, and as you moved around the hospital, they all moved with you. But the way that consumers communicate and they're constantly moving across those channels, cases and tickets are just not the right metaphor for actually designing a 21st century customer service platform. So it was really the combination of the changes in the state of the art at the time in technology that we said, hey, there's a big opportunity to really reinvent and reimagine customer service.

So at the high level, we know Gladly is all about customer support. It's customers, not cases. What sets Gladly apart from a product, from experience, from the rest of the field?

I think there's a few things. I think the first one is this idea that instead of being centered around tickets and cases, we really do center around a person or a customer. And a lot of people talk about that, and you see it in a lot in the marketing materials of other companies. But it's really a fundamental difference. At the core atomic unit of Gladly, it really is the customer at the center, meaning that the thing that gets routed around to an agent is not an email, it's not a text message, it's not a phone call. It's actually the customer, and it's customers that get sent around to people. And the second piece is that it's a focus on being independent of any particular channel or mode of communications. It's not that you support them all. It's actually you want to make them, you sort of be independent to them, meaning that it's the customer that's getting routed and it's on whatever channel of communication that they're using. In that moment, we decide how to best answer that question. So a customer can go from an email to a phone call, to a text message, to Facebook messenger, back onto Twitter. And for a company, they can actually view that as a single conversation thread that's happening between the company and that customer. And that's pretty different. That's just a very different approach to thinking about how to do communications.

It doesn't seem like it's getting any simpler. Every month I feel like I have another messaging app on my phone. There's another website, another channel. Now I have these devices like Siri or Google Home or Amazon Echo, in which now I can talk to my friends or talk to companies. So how do you think about this Omnichannel experience Reach. And partly that's the technology advantage, but how do you guys think about the scope of problem you're attacking?

Well, the industry talks a lot about omnichannel. We like to talk a little bit more about what we call channel agnostic. Meaning we support lots of communication channels and we'll add more over time as consumer behavior changes, but we think the channel actually matters less, not more. Certainly for the consumer, if they're contacting your company, whether they're calling the 800 number, sending an email, or or even walking into a retail store, they're not thinking about the channel they're communicating on. They want the person that they're talking to to first of all greet them and know who they are like, hello, Mr. Wolf, that instant. We call that the five second test. If you call somebody, email somebody, they should know exactly who you are. They should also have that complete history of interactions with you as well as kind of what the issue that you're contacting the company about. And they don't expect that to change per channel. And we've always had that experience as consumers. You pick up the phone, you send an email, maybe you call again the next day. We almost take it for granted now that you have to repeat yourself. You have to say, okay, I talked to somebody yesterday. This is what I told them. Then I sent an email. The person you're talking to on the phone will probably tell you, oh, sorry, I can't get access to that email because that's a different system and a different team, and there's an email case over there I can't get access to. We don't want the channel to matter very much. We certainly don't want it to matter to the consumer who wants to jump between channels and doesn't want to start over each time. And even that agent experience, first of all, you don't want a pool of agents who handle different channels. You want to have a single team that can cut across the channels and that agent experience in terms of getting trained and ramped up to handle a social interaction, a chat interaction, an email interaction. The tools for those are almost exactly the same. So why not have a single team who can handle on multiple channels? Helps the customer also makes the contact center a lot more productive, a lot more efficient.

Forget about omnichannel. Even within one channel, the number of times when you're calling your credit card company you have to re enter your 29 digit credit card number. My mom's middle name plus my social is amazing. I get the value just for the consumer. Talk about the companies and the brands. Why should they care about this?

Yeah, I think that the, you know, share some stories of what they've told us. Right. It's usually a combination of a couple things. One is at the end of the day, there's all of this data that suggests the customers that you have, getting them to interact with you more is always the better strategy. Right. Because they become more loyal, they drive more top line. So there's a, I don't want to make it sound crass, but there's a company success element to it around Dr. Driving revenue and making customers happy. And the company's view is that if they don't change, they're going to die. And if they don't change and adjust to the way the consumers want to engage with them, they're not going to be relevant in the 21st century. So that's one. The second piece, to be honest, that we've learned along the way is also doing great. Customer service is not necessarily inexpensive and there's an element of efficiency that they're looking for. So that if you can drive efficiency both at an individual interaction experience, you know, the agent experience, it frees up your agents to actually spend more time on the stuff that matters. So there's an element of how do you drive efficiency so that your team can actually do a better job of engaging with customers. And those are usually the two big drivers. There's a whole host of other things out there in terms of better analytics and understanding who your customers are and insights in terms of what they're doing. But it really does boil down to this thing of how do I improve my revenue and how do I make sure I'm managing my costs for doing that efficiently?

It's almost sometimes counterintuitive people think you don't want to hear from the customers because they don't hear from the customers. They're happy. But oftentimes the more engaged, more active, even your customers who are making feedback in Plains, they're actually the happiest because they care about the brand, they care about the product.

We spend a lot of time in, in contact centers, putting the headsets on, shadowing people looking over their shoulders. They're doing chat sessions and emails. And it is amazing when you see an incredible customer service experience, like when people say I love you, the customer says that to the company and it's just because you've got these amazing people and when they do a great job, your customer service angels, when they do a great job with your customers, they build that connection. So if you can give them better tools so they can actually focus on the customer, it's a game changer.

Let's talk about the tools. Right now. There are a lot of companies and brands probably do this wrong or suboptimally because it's very noisy. There's Facebook messenger, they have M. There's probably, like I said, a million different chatbots out there. We hear about AI washing of every single product out there. Now, if I'm a brand, a Nike or a restaurant chain that's beloved or a clothing change or an online brand, how do I think about these tools like messenger and how does gladly make a difference versus these other things out there that I can spend my time and money on?

I think that a couple of things that we've noticed is that if you look at the technology ecosystem, the startup ecosystem, and we obviously see this Jerry, inside of Greylock, where we've seen a lot of companies that come in that they want to tackle a particular channel. So there's platforms for doing social support or platform for doing Messenger. And the challenge is that as a consumer, you don't get that kind of connective tissue across all these ways that you want to communicate. So we really do think that we're trying to do is enable these companies so that they don't actually have to stress about any one of them. It's all of the above. And if you can enable all of the above on a single platform, it's a lot more effective for them. They can take six systems and actually just use one and it's just a better customer service experience. I think that it is really this idea of helping everybody just make things simpler, which is really, really powerful. And I think it's the reason why these big Brands are actually engaging with us. And the results so far have been really, really great, both in terms of the companies, but also the consumer reaction has been really great too.

With every product, I always like to think there are drivers and drags, right? Drags are why not to buy a product or use it. That could be cost complexity, something new, technical issues. And there's drivers like the value saving money, increasing revenue out there. When you talk to these customers, what are the drags you're seeing? Why aren't they embracing this kind of 21st century customer service today? Is it cultural, is it technical, is it people issues?

We very rarely talk to a company where the message doesn't resonate, where it's we need to do something, we know we need to do something, we will do something. It's really just a matter of are they doing it this year, next year, or the year after, and what kind of case we can help make to accelerate that. And the drag is really legacy. A lot of them have a bunch of telephony equipment and a room full of people who are really good at taking phone calls. They might have something like Kana that they bought 15 years ago. They have a team of people using that. That team might have its own manager who has their own metrics around that channel. Then they have the pressure to handle the new social channels, some of which they might even buy a point solution from a startup around here to handle those. So it's really just when will there be the. They recognize that a single customer experience and a single platform is imperative. They're all on that journey. We're just here to help them on that journey. Certain one leading brands are doing it this year. There's a bunch more that will do it next year. But there's no need to evangelize that vision. It's really a question of how you get them from here to there.

Joseph so who are the ideal customers for? Gladly. Who out there should be saying, my goodness, this is what I really need, A perfect fit for your vision and who do you want to be talking to?

One of the keys to success, I think in a startup is figuring out who you want those first set of customers to be. You know, it's like that age old expression of, you know, you can get to know a lot about a person by their friends. Same thing with a startup, you can get to know a lot about them by their customers. And I remember when we were first thinking about starting the company, we talked to dozens and dozens of companies. And I'll share a story. The the the innocent will remain nameless. Where it was a utility company, we were talking about customer service and they said, look, we actually don't want customers to talk with us, we just want them to pay their bill. So we knew that like utilities was probably not the right target to go after. And what we discovered was you have to find companies. And it's a really interesting challenge in those early days because there's like the macro categories, right? Commerce and retail. There's obviously lots of activity going on there where the contact center is tied to helping sell travel and leisure. So hotels, airlines, where people are calling these contact centers and literally making purchases of thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars, those are really good categories for us because the customer relationship really matters, the communications really matters and there's an element of selling associated with what they're doing. So we really, really like those. But to be honest, the key is usually finding, especially these early days, people that are those early innovators. It's finding that person who's a change agent. And we've been super fortunate to actually engage with a bunch of those folks who say, hey, we have to think about how we're going to do things differently. We can't do what everyone else decided to do 10 years ago. We have to figure out what we're going to do that everyone else is going to be doing in 10 years. And it's when you find those kinds of people, that's when you know you have a really good match and you just bear hug them and you got to just work super hard to make them successful. So it's a combination of thinking about specific industries, retail, commerce, travel and leisure. But also finding that key person inside of those companies that can be a change agent.

It's markets where obviously working with the customer matters. Like I said, retail, travel, hospitality. Exactly. All these brands that matter. But the important thing, even within these large verticals you were looking for forward thinking companies have the right culture that are A change agents, which a lot of people are, and B, also customer first. Right. They look at customer service as extension of their brand, extension of their product experience, which is something a lot of companies don't think about. They think the product experience ends when they get the credit card. But really customer support is a feature of the product. It's a feature of what you're buying.

Correct.

So let's talk about. Gladly. And the company formation. So your first company together, you worked together at Khana and, and then you guys started a company called Vantu together. And now he started Gladly. So maybe tell us a little bit about the Vantu story and how that journey came to be and then what you're doing the same this time, what you guys are doing differently.

So the Vantu story, Mike and I both had left Khana and we were both thinking about starting another company. Mike was an EIR over at Benchmark and I was doing some consulting and working with various folks. And we met this other, the third co founder in the company, this guy Kevin, and started thinking about this idea around security, which was very different than CRM on the surface. Yet I think one of the experiences that we saw coming out of Khana was the fact that in all of these contact centers, a lot of these agents who are oftentimes hourly part time, high turnover, they have access to a lot of sensitive stuff, your credit card number, they're doing transactions on the phone with you. And I think the insight around Vantu was that for decades people had spent tons of time, money, et cetera, around trying to protect companies intellectual property from the outside in. And they didn't realize that there was actually a big risk on the insider threat. And this idea that you could lose data accidentally, maliciously, by people inside of your network that have access to it, either doing something where they accidentally send it out or trying to take it, downloading files, sending information to their home computers because they're going to leave the company. And so the three of us said, hey, let's go try to solve that problem that we had witnessed actually a lot when we were spending all this time in contact centers. And so we did that and that was a great experience, built the company to a couple hundred people. Symantec ended up acquiring that company for 350 million. And I think the things that we learned in that journey, a lot of them, we're definitely applying today.

Michael, on this journey, when you think about Vontu and now, gladly be curious, same question, what mistakes did you want to avoid or did you feel like you met the first time around that you said we're not going to do that this time and vice versa, what things culturally or technically or organizationally said that really worked and we want to make sure we double down on that.

I think one of the tensions of anybody who's been at more than one or two startups is knowing which lessons to translate to the next one. Certain things are, I think, timeless. Trust, culture, team focus, and knowing which things maybe were applicable in a certain market, a certain company that maybe are not applicable to the new one. And we've had to navigate that in terms of there's some great people we've worked with in the past, a lot of whom are working with us again today. But we've also made a real effort to say, let's hire some people who come out of different companies. Let's hire some people who come from consumer companies. Let's hire some people who are straight out of college, who are building their career. We're focusing a lot more on diversity at this company. And we've learned from experience, if you start early, it becomes a lot easier down the road. You're not playing defense and trying to build the team later. So I think the things that I think are timeless are it's always culture, and I think it's really trust and transparency. It's, let's share everything going on at the business with everybody at the business. Let's talk about what's going well, let's talk about what's not going well. Let's talk about what our plans are. We'll have a board meeting and we'll go to the company and we'll share the things we talked about at the board meeting. Because it's their company as well. They should know those things. And really a lot of trust in terms of, first of all, trusting people with that information. But also, for example, we'll take somebody who's only a couple years out of school, but trust them to lead a pretty big project, because first of all, we need the help. And second of all, it's a way for them to build their career. It's a way for them to get stronger at what they're doing. And those are the things that people end up really caring about. Sure, they want to work for a successful company, but they want to work somewhere where their careers are growing and they're being treated like adults. And those things, I think they work almost no matter what company you're in, no matter what market you're in. And those are also the people who want to work together again at the next one, because that's the experience they had.

And I think that one of the differences between Vantu and Gladly, probably the big one strategically, was in the Vantu case, we basically created a whole new category, product category, that had not existed before. And that's really challenging. I mean, it wasn't only just creating a category. It was convincing customers that they actually had a pain. It was convincing Gartner to do a magic quadrant and naming the thing data loss prevention, which is what we had come up with. And that's very different than what we're doing at Gladly, which is you have this 20, $30 billion market of customer service. You've got this big 800 pound gorilla in Salesforce. And so the way you have to navigate that and go to market is very, very different. The things you need to do now, there's certain things which are exactly the same, right? You get those first sets of customers, you bear hug them, you make them super successful. That is exactly the same. But you're very much more focused on why you're different, better versus why you even need to do something in the Vantu days. And it's just very different. And you do have different tactics and different approaches to do that.

One of my favorite sayings is generals are always trying to fight the last war, right? What work to the last war, last battle you think is going to work. What worked for my last company is going to work here. The savvy generals and the savvy founders are those that realize what are the timeless strategies, be it people or go to market or technology. And reading the terrain, the terrain today and the market you're playing in is different. You're not creating a category like dlp. You're an existing category, but this new category has different terrain, mobile bots, chat, et cetera. And you guys are reading terrain in an incredible way. I remember walking into your office, Joseph, and you started whiteboarding a next gen company around Telf, telephony and call centers and customer support. He said, I think there's something here. I kind of shrugged and said, yeah, maybe a few months later you brought on Dirk as an eir. Then Michael came back from Europe and he kind of got the band back together. The thing about that special moment from my perspective is Greylux has a history of doing that from incubating workday with Aneel Palato Networks with Near Zuck as an eir. Hopefully this is the next in a long line of successful companies. But each of these companies that we've been able to ideate were not lacking in ambition. They were going after big customers in big markets. Whereas I think today there's a bunch of folks that say, well, let's find the white space or the frictionless go to market. How do you guys think about attacking the big mountain? Because it's there.

I think one of the things that I learned all the time at Greylock in looking at what are seminal companies is all of them end up being a platform. You become some system of record of something and it's same thing on the consumer side of things, whether it's Facebook or LinkedIn. You know, at workday, it's about being that core initially HR platform, Palo Alto Networks. It's that core security platform for your company. And I think that given that we had experience and been through this process before, we thought there was just another opportunity to build a next generation platform company around customer service that is not for the faint of heart. It is absolutely not for the faint of heart because it's a lot easier to build some point product and you know, you have easy land and expand and you know, very frictionless selling. And you can sell to all the startups in Silicon Valley and San Francisco, but that's not the path that we've taken. Our path is really one more of finding and working with large brand name, Fortune 500 companies and doing six, seven, eight figure license deals that can take a year to actually work through before you get that customer. And like I said, that's not for the faint of heart. But if you can do that and become the core platform in that system of record for customer service and customer communications, you can then build, we think, a seminal company. And then the challenge is you need to make sure you find people who know how to do that, which we've done. Obviously. Back in the Vantu days, our first customer was bank of America, you know, and they worked with this little 15 person company. We monitored their entire network for all their data leaving. It was a huge challenge technically as well as just a sales challenge. So we know how to do it. The other thing is, it's part of the reason we've raised so much capital. You know, we raised a little over $60 million so far. And it does take more investment because to get that flywheel started is a much, much longer ramp. But once it starts, it can usually outpace. If you look at the history of Palo Alto or ServiceNow or Workday, the revenue ramp of a company that's just an SMB company.

Exactly. Once you get that snowball rolling down the right side of the mountain, it really picks up momentum, correct?

Yeah, yeah, but it takes a while. You hear a lot about this concept of founder market fit, meaning as a founder, you have to pick the right market, pick the right company. And I've learned that both the hard way and, and the easy way in the past. And I think for most founders, starting with something really small, put something on the web, somebody can put it on their credit card and then try to build up from that. There's nothing wrong with that. And I think probably a lot of you guys see a Lot of companies here, some of which end up doing that. I think we realized for our team. First of all, we love selling to large enterprise, big deals, long term relationships with customers. It's a little painful at first, but like we said, once it gets going, you get the flywheel effect and also taking on something that's just really big. I mean, this is one of the biggest enterprise markets there is. It's the biggest part of the CRM market. It's also one of the only big remaining enterprise software markets that hasn't moved to the cloud. And part of the transition we're in right now is once telephony moves to the cloud, once these systems and the management moves to the cloud, that's going to create some giant winners or maybe one giant winner. And it's such an opportunity that we kind of looked at that and said, someone's going to do this. There's a team out there that's equipped to do that and it's us both because of the market knowledge and the large enterprise experience and the ability to have Greylock help us launch the company and then raise the money we need to do it.

So, Joseph, you guys have raised $60 million total. The company's two years old, plus or minus. What's the next lap or the two laps of this race? It's a marathon, not a sprint. Clearly you've geared up with enough capital to build and tackle this big mountain that Michael just described. What do you see the next two, three years for Glally for this team?

When I always think about the future of the company, I use this metaphor to say, look, you have two eyes. One eye is looking at what are you doing in the next 90 days. The other eye is thinking about where do you want to be in five years, 10 years? I think next 90 days we have these great set of customers we've been working with and just making them successful. We can't wait to actually announce who they are. We're chomping at the bit to do that. And it's a lot of just blocking and tackling making them successful. I think in the next five to 10 years. I think that if we can look back after 10 years and talk to people about their customer service experiences, it would be amazing to think. Imagine you get off of an airplane and you've missed your connection and you send a text message to the company and say, hey, I missed my connection. Or even better, you get off the plane, you turn your phone on and you have a text message from them that says, hey, we notice you've missed your connection. Here are three options for a flight. Which one would you like? You sent a text back. They say, great, call us to confirm. You pick up the phone. The person on the phone says, Mr. Chen, I see you picked this flight. I've got you booked. We're all set to go. If we can really change the way people interact with companies to that level where they know who you are and you're having a very natural, empathetic conversation with them, we've been wildly successful, and that's what I hope to be able to do.

Well, that sounds like a great vision for the next five years. And I know we're early in this journey, but since you guys have done this three times already, I'm calling dibs on the next company I start.

Well, Jerry, you're on the board here, so we look forward to keeping doing that for a while.

Well, thank you very much, Joseph. Thank you very much, Michael. I hope you guys enjoyed listening to this podcast about Greylock, and gladly.