Scaling Up Snapchat with Casey Winters and Julie Zhou | Greymatter

All right. Hello, everyone. I'm Casey Winters, growth Advisor in residence at Greylock. At Greylock, we always talk about the current challenges tech companies face in the market. So we thought it'd be a good idea to bring in an expert practitioner and jam on how we'd solve those problems if they were our responsibility. So I'm happy to announce Julie Zoe is with us today. Julie, why don't you introduce yourself?

Hi, everyone. My name is Julie Zo. I am most recently the director of growth at Yik Yak, an app that is 98% audience of millennials and college students, which is very relevant to our topic at hand today. Before that, I worked on growth for a travel startup called Hipmunk, bought by Concur. And before that, four years at Google.

So what are we going to talk about? We're going to talk about Snap today. As many of you know, Snap recently went public, and one of the biggest issues raised in their S1 was slowing user growth. What Julie and I are going to do today is analyze their user growth from a few angles, talk about if we think it's a real problem, and talk about what we might focus on if we had to solve the problem. So getting started, when Snap talked about their user growth, they blamed their declining user growth on Android, specifically internationally, and on some features they added that slowed the app's performance. Now, you may believe that, you may not, but what many pundits have been saying is that slowing user growth is very closely timed to when Instagram launched their copy of Snapchat, called Instagram Stories. Or some people just believe that international growth is capped for Snapchat because it's such a high bandwidth app. There are also some concerns that their core market is moving back to Instagram, off which they build their base. So I'd love to actually start with the core market. That's something, Julie, you have a lot of expertise in and something that I spent some time on while working on campus food. The college market has been historically very fickle. So do you believe that they should be concerned that the college students are moving away from Snapchat? They're onto the new thing or back to the old thing? How big of a problem do you think that is?

Yeah, that's a really good question. So I have spoken to lots of millennials and lots of college students during my time at Yik Yak, and from then and up till now, so far, it doesn't appear to be that Snapchat is losing their core demographic, the millennials and the teens. Some of Them that I've spoken to said they are spending a little bit more time on Instagram, but the majority of them all say Snapchat fills a position in their social media usage patterns that really nothing else can match. And that's because it still feels different. And I say feels and I'm making air quotes right now. You can't really say it and it sounds really fluffy. But it's pretty important because the Millenn and teens have grown up in an era where everything they do in social media is work, it's permanent, it's part of their portfolio. And Snapchat and Yik Yak for a long time was their fun social media. It was raw, it was real. They didn't have to worry about how it reflected on their later chances in life. Right. So I think as long as Snapchat is able to differentiate themselves for a distinctly different use case and a different role in someone's social media usage than Facebook or Instagram could ever step into, they're not really in danger of losing their core demographic.

Yeah, I think that makes sense. And I think at least Facebook has seen that as a threat that Snapchat really nailed that kind of fun use case. And we saw, you know, Messenger Day launch recently, we saw Instagram Stories launch as a response to try to kind of add the fun back into these social networks that had become work. Do you feel like Instagram and Facebook are being successful at that? I look at it as someone that has used those products and it feels like separate. It doesn't feel like it quite makes sense to me. But then again, I'm over 30 and they're not marketing to me anymore. Right. So your perspective from like students experiencing that, how do you think that's working?

I think that Instagram and Facebook are being very successful at capitalizing on the ephemeral content form factor. So I think what they've done is they've kind of choked off Snapchat's current growth potential into the 30 something market. Because Snapchat had the ephemeral content, it had those fun filters. Now Facebook, Instagram do too, and they're executing them better because we know they. That's what they specialize in. And so if I was interested in ephemeral content, if I'm interested in the cool filters that I see Snapchat having now I can just use what I'm familiar with. Instagram, Facebook, I don't have to spend the time to learn Snapchat as a result. So I think they're doing a very good job there. Snapchat's core user base doesn't seem to be moving. So I don't know how good they are doing Facebook and Instagram at stealing Snapchat's core demo, but I'd argue it's.

Almost more important that Snapchat starts to seal more of Instagram and Facebook's demo than the reverse. Right. So if you think about Snapchat owning the college market right now, which it appears at least, if they don't own it, they take a good chunk of time along with Instagram, there's a couple things about the college market. One is they grow up quickly. And if your app does grow up, it can alienate the usage of the core users. Right. So if your mom starts to get it on and all of a sudden it's not cool for you as a college student, and you kind of have this issue with college students where you have to reacquire them every year during the long breaks.

Oh, yeah, that was definitely a major challenge that we ran into at Yik Yak was it was fresh and new and exciting to every crop of incoming freshmen or every time the new college year started. But as they started to graduate and move on, it was almost like every year we had to reacquire and reacquaint people with, hey, here's this new usage of Yik Yak. And I mean, everyone knows that everyone stopped using Facebook once their parents started using it. So is that really true?

Did you stop using it once your parents started using it?

My parents have not started using it.

Okay. Neither of mine, to be frank. But I feel like Facebook, it's moved from a. I was excited to use it, and now I feel like I'm forced to use it. But I didn't leave because my aunts and uncles and parents were on it. So you hear that kind of the students have left, or at least they've migrated time to other social networks like Snapchat and Instagram. But I still think they're on it. I still think they're spending time, and I still think they're building value for Facebook. But feel free to challenge me.

Whenever we asked our market at Yik Yak name the social media apps that you use, it was almost always Instagram first, followed by Snapchat. And then at some point down the line, either third or a couple others later, they said, oh, Facebook, I have to use Facebook.

Right?

Right. Everyone uses it, but they don't have much fun with it. Similarly, kind of with Instagram, some of them have fun with it. But the majority of them find it super stressful and they feel like they have to put their best foot forward. So, for instance, people who post a photo on Instagram, if they don't immediately get a certain number of likes in 10 minutes, they'll delete it and they'll find another one and they'll apply, or they'll apply a better filter onto their old one. So that's the type of pressure that they put on themselves when they're using social media like Instagram and Facebook.

Yeah, it's crazy to me to hear that, but I've heard it from other people as well. Right. Where Facebook and Instagram cornered this market of projecting your best self and that created this opportunity for Snapchat where it's your authentic self because you don't have to worry about how popular it is because you're only sharing it with specific individuals. Let's go back to moving up market because we talked about some of the things Facebook and Instagram have tried to do to reclaim the down market of college students moving upmarket. Josh Elman, one of our partners, has this great post on how Snapchat landed this concept of shareable design versus intuitive design, where it may be kind of confusing, but because you can show how to do all the cool features to your friend next to you, you kind of felt in the know for knowing how to do these certain things. And my perspective on that was that it's really great for high penetration with young people. But as you're trying to move these friend graphs beyond people that you're hanging out with every day to people that are across the country or your family and whatnot, it makes it a lot harder to expand the graph because the other people are kind of forced to figure it out on their own. And I don't know, at least for me, Snapchat was pretty hard to figure out on my own. So if you're Snapchat and you think you need to keep user growth going, do you change that paradigm that's been really successful for you in your early days and kind of got you to where you are, or do you find a way to stick with it and make it slightly easier for older people to use? How do you think about that? I have strong opinions, but I'd love to hear yours first.

I think when Snapchat first launched, their confusing UX was. It wasn't so much deliberate as it was, let's get this out there. And it was so compelling. The concept of ephemeral messaging, disappearing messages, this kind of raw Social media content was so compelling that they grew in spite of their unique ux. And another thing I wanted to add to what Josh said about how the UX is shareable, the design is shareable. It's not only that you can grab someone and say, hey, here's how to use this. It's very visible in the physical world. If you're walking by. Someone who is using a filter like Snap could have easily made the activation of the filter to press a button or to double tap, but instead they make you open your eyes wide, they make you stick your tongue out, and there's only so many times you can walk by people doing this weird stuff before you're like, what on earth is going on? What is this? I mean, it's very similar to the Pokemon Go craze, when suddenly you see everyone walking around with their heads down and doing the same swipe up gesture to throw pokeballs over and over and over again. And it's very powerful when you can get critical mass like that of people doing these very specific actions and then you start tying that to an app and then you're kind of off to the races there. So to answer your question on do you think. Do I think Snap needs to change their UX to make it friendlier? Not necessarily. Because the throwing of a pokeball, the opening of your eyes to learn how to use a filter may have been really confusing initially, but now I think everyone knows how to do it. And I think the X factor of Snapchat's growth is always they come up with some new feature that completely changes the game again. And this sounds really fluffy and I would never say it about any other product, but Snapchat has had a record of coming out with these types of things, whether they be stories, whether they be filters and lenses.

That Discover is another area.

Discover, yes. Discover didn't do too well. Is it growing now?

I think we'd be happy with it if we launched it as products at Snapchat scale. It might not be as good as Stories, but still had an impact for them, I think, and got a lot of the brands and influencers more involved.

Oh, shares are shared. Yeah. And it's allowed them to grow their revenue from nothing to something.

Yeah, yeah. So I don't know. I think I disagree with needing to change. I think this is one of the things we saw at Pinterest, which is the early community had such strong bond with the product, kind of in spite of its flaws, as you mentioned, and we had employees that had bonded with that experience. And we continually saw people in research getting confused. Right. They couldn't quite connect to what, why would I use this thing? And I think what we realized and what helped us reignite our growth was saying, hey, you can keep the product the way it is for existing users, but new users need an easier way to get into it. So while I agree the core product doesn't need to change for Snapchat, I do think the introduction to it should really change if they want to go further into international or go to slightly older people in the US because it seems like their basic understanding of onboarding is pretty limited. It's like, basically, they send you a video at some point in time. It doesn't seem like they really know how to guide you through the different things that would connect you to, like, this is valuable, or really make sure you even connect with friends. It's still pretty hard to connect with friends on Snapchat. So those are the types of things I think about. If they want to continue to scale, they'll need to improve. Because while we don't have the data, if you kind of go through the growth accounting, my guess is the biggest problem with Snapchat right now is not that people aren't trying it or that people fall off once they get engaged, it's that people fail in the introduction to the product. So their activation rate is probably very low. And when I think about corollaries to that, I think about Twitter, which I think Twitter's activation rate into monthly active user is 18% or something like that. It's. It's very low compared to an Instagram or Facebook and Pinterest. And if you're really good at having a lot of hype and getting people to try it, but you're very bad at that initial activation, you sort of cap out, right? And we've seen this with Twitter. Like, Twitter's capped out at around 320 million active users. And that's my fear as to what's happening with Snap is that they have this incredible hype around them and everyone's like, what is this? I need to try it. And then they try it and they're like, what is this? I don't understand it. And too many people do that and you kind of just get capped with an audience. And, hey, the audience they have is valuable. But I think if they're going to try to continue to grow revenue, they're going to eventually need to grow users or they're going to run out of ads to show to existing users.

Yeah, I think Snap's onboarding is terrible. It is awful. I do not think, though, it's terrible. That's the reason that they're not growing. I don't believe that. And that's because we in growth really, really like to remove friction. We really like simple onboarding. And for the majority of products, that's extremely true. I think for something like Snap, the onboarding can be annoying, but the reward that you get from it should. If the value is there and the value is being provided to the user, they'll go through that friction. They'll go through that friction to get to it. I think the comparison with Twitter is not entirely accurate because you would go through the onboarding and then you would have no idea what to even do with Twitter after you'd successfully onboarded on. And that would never change over time, and they would continue suggesting more and more people for you to follow. And the more people you follow, the more confusing and the more messy your feed gets. Right. If you manage to get through the Snapchat onboarding flow, you kind of don't need to do anything. You can watch other people's stories and see what's happening. Now, this is a completely different scenario if you're the only person in your social circle to be using Snapchat, and then you run to problems, Right? But I think for people like me especially, who have a lot of friends who are already using it, it almost didn't matter that I didn't create my first Snap for at least two months because I was watching other people's and I would see them use features and be like, hey, how did you come up with this? Like, how did you do this? And I would learn it, and every single week, it seemed I was learning more and more about how to use this, these stickers. And so it's almost like a little dopamine hit every time. I was proud of myself for learning it. Then Instagram stories came along and I saw I got four times as many views on it because the majority of my network was on it. And that. And that killed it for me.

So it's almost as if the onboarding problem is not really an onboarding problem, it's a friending problem. As long as you can get connected to a certain number of friends, the onboarding takes care of itself by the friends inside the product and potentially outside the product teaching you it.

Yes.

But one of the issues I had when I signed up is that Snapchat only found, like, one friend for me to follow on it. And while I knew that wasn't true.

You need to be younger and hipper, Casey.

That is true. But it is also true that I had a lot more friends on Snapchat and I think Snapchat could do a better job of making sure they are surfaced so that I can follow them and see how all of them are using it. So all of my younger, hipper friends at Pinterest were using Snapchat, but none of them showed up when I onboarded, even though I had their contact information.

Yes, I would totally agree with that. I would say I don't think it's terribly important that Snap teach you exactly how to use a filter or use a lens in the onboarding. You can kind of figure that out by yourself. But if they don't immediately connect you with everyone else who you could possibly know that's also using Snap, then yeah, that's a big problem.

Yep. And I know it's a hard problem because we had trouble with that at Pinterest as well. I want to talk a little bit about international, which is probably another area where you don't have as many friends already on it when you're using it. And it appears that Snapchat's growth has been hit hardest on Android in international markets. And when you look at how Facebook and Twitter sort of conquered international, they did it with text, Right. They weren't image based services at the time, so it didn't matter that it had to work on lower end devices. Facebook actually built a specific product for lower end devices that I think has more active users than Snapchat does now. And this was a challenge for us at Pinterest because we were an image only service. I can imagine it's even harder for Snapchat as an image and video service. But then I also look at Instagram and they don't seem to be having a problem growing internationally. But when Evan Spiegel has talked about international, he's talked about markets like the Netherlands and the Nordics. And I look at the math on that and be like, that's not that many people. Whereas you hear about Instagram and Facebook and they're talking about India and Indonesia where there are more users than there are more potential users than there are in the US So do you feel like there's a way for Snap to go after those markets the way the app is now? Instagram appears to be having success there. Is there something replicable or is it just they need to wait 10 years for phones to get up to speed there?

Snapchat is a bandwidth hog and they have not done anything to show that they care about it or to show that they are doing anything about it. The fact that Evan Spiegel is going after the high bandwidth, cheap data, relatively cheap data markets kind of shows that. And that's fine if they want to keep growing slowly internationally, but if they want to make a commitment to targeting any part of Asia, basically, then they need to really commit to figuring out a way to make their product less data heavy. Especially in countries like Brazil, there will be people who will have multiple SIM cards and they'll like swap one out with another because they just can't have enough data. There are people who download Instagram to send one photo and then immediately delete it after that and then go back on their computer at home. And I get where there's probably some hesitancy on Spiegel's part to go into those lower bandwidth markets or adapt Snapchat for those markets because it does fundamentally change what the app is about. It's not so much on the data heavy video, but I mean, I don't know, they gotta do it. I believe that data prices are going down, compression technologies are going to get better, and Snapchat actually has a great opportunity to lead the way if they choose to.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, you look at the size of Instagram on Android, it's a 50 megabyte app. Snapchat's over three times the size. I don't understand why it would need to be to be successful. So I feel like they haven't taken a look about how can we make this more palatable for. Not necessarily in India, but Brazil, which you brought up, is a great example. Social networks thrive in Brazil. It's a very shareable culture. And yeah, they are shooting themselves in the foot by not saying, hey, are there easy things we can do to make it easier for people in these other countries to try it. I think the, the way that Evan Spiegel is thinking about this is very revenue focused, which is smart to make revenue when you're a startup. And that perspective is, well, the majority of the ad market is in 10 countries. Why don't I just deeply penetrate those countries and I'll make all the revenue and all these countries don't matter. But when you look at the difference in stock performance between a Twitter and a Facebook, Facebook has shown they can continue to grow into Indonesia, into Nigeria, and Wall street has rewarded them for that. And I think the reason they have is not because they're blinded by a huge active user number. It's that they believe that those markets will eventually monetize as well as the US does now. And there are a lot more users in those markets and a lot more users coming online. So long term revenue will be majority international, even if that's 10 years out or further. So when you're thinking about kind of long term cash flows, those markets are critical. So I think Evan's taking a very short term view, looking at the ad market as it is today instead of as it will be. And my perspective is that the phones and the data plans in these international markets are catching up a lot faster than we think they will, and we'll be surprised at their capabilities very soon. And this is the exact same question we had to deal with at Pinterest. Right? When we're going international, what do we focus on? Do we focus on just the most densely populated countries or do we focus on the countries that have the highest end phones and the most ad revenue to pursue? I think we started like Evan Spiegel saying, let's go after the uk, let's go after Germany, let's go after France. But then immediately, once you start doing well there, you have to think about how to scale outward from there. Do you invest in a Snapchat light? I don't know if it makes sense. Do you try to get the thing under 150 megs? Probably you should think about that.

Probably you should definitely think very, very hard about that. Yeah.

I want to move on to another topic that we've talked about a little bit, which is we've seen kind of like you said, I moved back to Instagram because I was getting a lot more engagement on Instagram stories versus Snapchat stories. We've heard the same argument from influencers. This is more anecdotal because how many influencers are there? How important are they to a growth, to the growth of an app? But anecdotally a lot of presses been interviewing these people saying they're moving back to Instagram because they're getting more engagement. And Kevin Whale, who's now running product at Instagram, he's basically said that he doesn't care about brands and influencers anymore. And he said that the, the key to reigniting user growth for Instagram was much more the personal connection. Maybe Evan feels the same, but I'd love your perspective. How important are influencers for Snapchat? Should they care about that or is it kind of a distraction for them and they need to focus on like we got you engaged into the product was kind of that Ephemeral connection with friends.

I think influencers serve two very important purposes on platforms. One, it can be a way to draw in new users who would not be drawn in to talk to friends. If they don't have existing friends on the platform, they can at least use the platform to watch the really funny videos or hear from someone that they really respect or that they admire. Right. So first, influencers allow for yet another growth channel. Second, and more importantly, having the influencers there gives them a path to monetization. Right. Having those people there with massive reach is very appealing to advertisers, is very appealing to future revenue growth.

Yeah, I agree with that. I think especially the concept of influencers are going to bring in tons of new people to Snapchat by promoting it wherever they currently reach their audience. I think we see a lot on Twitter. The actual avatar is an add me on Snapchat image. So that's really interesting. I wonder how important that's been for Snapchat. My guess is it's been material because I know I start to see it for a lot of different people that I follow, which means that they've migrated to Snapchat and they actually care more about it than Twitter, which is interesting. I do think potentially it's hard to separate in the user's mind. Do I go to this app to hear what Kim Kardashian is up to, or do I go to this app to see if my friend Julie is up to? And if you're going to pick one, My guess is what my friend is up to is a bigger market to pick.

I mean, either that or they just have to be much better about surfacing content in a reasonable or smart way. Much like Facebook is able to have both personal content and branded content on their feed. And I mean, say what you will about their algorithm, but they're very, very good at making sure there's a variety of it.

Right.

Whereas in Snap, it's literally a giant list, which is. Yeah, that's a major pain.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a good point you brought up. Right. Which is at every point in time when these apps start, they start as just a list based time ordered, basically. And at some point they all have to evolve into saying what are the things that this user is likely to care about? And let me make sure I show them that and then degrading quality to show other things. And I think Facebook made delete very successfully there. Instagram made delete very successfully. Pinterest made delete very successfully. I feel like Twitter and Snapchat have not. And I just don't see how you can build an amazing ad business or amazing engagement long term if you don't do that. So I think that's a big hole in their user and revenue growth that they should take a look at. Okay, so let's say you and I are dropped into Snapchat tomorrow, and Evan actually does feel like declining user growth is a problem, and he's tasked us to solve it. What would be the types of things you would look at to figure out what to work on? And then I can kind of chime in with some of the things I think are important as well.

So at Yik Yak, similarly with Snapchat, there was never an awareness problem. Our core demographic knew exactly who we were, and even people outside of our core demographic had heard of us at some point. So it's not top of the funnel that's the problem.

I agree.

For us, at Yik Yak, there was a growth challenge around how do you create stickiness and habit. And on a platform where the whole selling point is that the moment that you join the platform, there's content there and you don't need to spend the time to build up your social graph. How do you create connection in an app where there is no visible personal connection since everyone is pseudo anonymous? So for us, the process was to realize, okay, top of the funnel is not the problem. Let's figure out then how to keep the users around. So our process was to talk to as many users as possible, starting with power users, going down to the flybys, the people who had tried it for a week and dropped off. And over and over, the answer that we got was, I go there because of the funny content. I go there because of the touching content. I go there because of the sketchy content, because there was no other platform for it. And it was all raw and it was all representative of their college community that they wanted to feel closer to. And so our growth strategy was to, at every relevant moment possible, remind people about some great posts they may have missed out, remind them of some instances where it would make sense to talk about it on Yik Yak. So we made great use of the college football schedule, made great use of when exams were taking place, because it was definitely a platform. Yik Yak was a platform for people to commiserate and show support and say, hey, you can do it. So for us, it was all about content. Now for Snapchat, their passionate users, they're still using it, as I said, I do not believe that their core audience is going away. However, they can use the same strategy we took around interviewing users, finding out, what is it, what kind of value is it that they should be providing to the people who try for a week, and then their flybys, they go back to Instagram or Facebook.

Yeah, that makes sense, I think. I agree. I think the process going into any company working on growth is talk to users who like it and talk to users who didn't get it right, and try to understand what's the difference between those two and how can we get more of the people who didn't like it to have the same sort of experience that the people who did like it. So I kind of start with talking to users on the phone or whatever to get that perspective, and then probably do a lot of user research, watching people sign up for the product for the first time and watching some of them get delighted because they get it and some people get confused. And that would probably help me understand what exactly the issue is. Is it friending, which is one of the hypotheses that we talked about earlier. Is it the confusing ui? There are a lot of hypotheses that I think you can only learn through qualitative research.

I would take that actually a step further. I would not only interview individual users trying to sign up, I would watch users in friend groups trying to help someone new sign up, because I think that that happens far more often than a single person signing up.

That makes a lot of sense. Yep. I think also we have this hypothesis that user growth requires expanding the demographic a little bit. So trying to do some research with people that are college students or teens, people that are mid, late 20s, people that are 30s and 40s as well, to see if those challenges are different and if the product needs to be changed a little bit to reach more of whoever the market that's left is. And I think there's kind of the basic growth funnel to look at. Where's the traffic and signups coming from to Snapchat? My guess is there's an extreme volume of it right now, so they don't have to worry about it. But perhaps where it's coming from can help them understand what to do about it, how that retention happens, and how resurrection happens as well, too. If you believe that a lot of people are not connecting to enough friends at the beginning to stick with it, is there a way that we could connect them with friends later so that they get back on it? I know that's something that me as kind of a dormant Snapchat user. They never really try to say, like, oh, my friend is now on Snapchat and posted something recently, I should check it out. That's something Instagram is very effective at. And I think it's not something that will fix a broken product, but at their stage it would move the needle on user growth if they got good at it.

I don't think Snapchat has sent me a single notification since I stopped using it.

I agree. For instance, they sent me some notifications when people sent me directly snaps. And they have badging on Android which actually doesn't appear to work. It just seems to be stuck at one all the time. So you can tell that they haven't invested a lot of resources in that. But I think the bigger problem is understanding what makes people click with it, what makes people not click with it. And then can we change something in the UI to make more of the first and less of the second?

Yeah, I think when they do these interviews, I will bet a lot that the main answer they get for why aren't you using it anymore? Or why aren't you using it? It's going to be no one else is on it, or none of my friends are on it, or. Or there's nothing on there that I can't get somewhere else.

So let's dig into that one. So there's one strategy for kind of going up market in the US and then there's a separate kind of strategy of trying to go deeper into international countries. In international countries, the problem might be more none of my friends are on it or that I can get everything I need on Instagram. How would you think about solving for that problem? If literally Facebook products are going to clone everything you do, how do you differentiate in that environment? Is it a speed thing? Is it a go back to Evan's philosophy of we're just going to come up with new products all the time and we're going to run faster than everywhere else. How do you think about it?

I think that if they put some resources behind solving their data bandwidth issues, there's no reason why they could not expand into international markets using the same strategy that led to their rapid growth in the us which is namely differentiating themselves as a social media app that is ephemeral, that is raw, that is genuine, versus something like Facebook and Instagram, where you have to always put your best foot forward, always have to put your best face forward. Now, I'm not familiar enough with how Instagram and Facebook are perceived in countries outside the US But I'd be willing to assume that it's not altogether different than it is here, where Instagram is seen as the portfolio of your life. And so I see no reason why there's not similar need for, for Snapchat in markets like that, for the teens and the millennials to need something more casual to communicate with their closer friends.

Yeah, I think. I agree. I think it probably was a little flippant of us earlier to say that Facebook and Instagram solved their perception issues just by cloning some Snapchat features. They're still gonna have those perception issues. And if Snapchat can really lean into their original value prop, my guess is they have the awareness even in a lot of these other countries if they don't have the usage yet. So if they really leaned into that and made the app actually something that a person in India could download without breaking the bank, then yeah, there's no reason to say they need to change. Maybe we'd re evaluate that after being for six months and say this isn't working. But I think you probably don't have to assume you have to do something different just because Instagram and Facebook cloned a few features. You probably just need to solve the core international issues.

Yeah, data.

Cool. Well, I think we covered a lot of what we think the big issues are. We covered some of how we might tackle the problems. Maybe we solved the problems here today, maybe we didn't. But I just want to thank you again for coming on the podcast and I think it was really awesome. So thanks again.

Thanks for having me.