The State of Gaming with Discord CEO Jason Citron | Greymatter

In this episode of Gray Matter, Discord founder and CEO Jason Citron talks to Greylock partner Josh Elman about esports, the rise of gaming, and the future of messaging. For more news and podcasts, please visit news.greylock.com hi, this is Josh Ulman from.

Greylock Partners, and I'm excited to be here today with Jason Citron, the CEO and founder of Discord.

Hey, Josh, thanks for having me.

Jason. Discord's all about helping people who play games communicate to each other. Sounds like you've been a long time gamer. Love playing games. Just tell us a little about your experience discovering these kind of PC games and multiplayer games and sort of what that's meant for you.

Sure, sure, yeah. My journey with games actually starts when I was like 5 years old sitting in my parents living room and discovering double dribble on the nes, which is like way before.

What a great game.

Yeah. And then my dad had a Packard Bell PC, which we had. I think it was called Prodigy back then, where you could go online and actually also play some games with people. I mean, I was a little kid back then, but PC gaming has just become part of my life. Like just growing up and playing games with my dad and then with my little brother. And if I like, fast forward to now, most of the best relationships in my life were built playing games. Really funny story I like to tell is how I met my wife. On our first date, we went to an arcade and I was like, all right, we'll play some games and it'll be fun, but I don't know, we'll see if she gets mad and comes back. But we played House of the Dead, which is a shooting game in the arcade, and she beat me. I'm like, wait, what the crap is this? And then it turns out she knew about obscure video game music like the Black Mages and was like a huge fan of Final Fantasy series. And I came to learn that actually she really likes shooting games. Like on our second date, I brought out Guitar Hero. Like, you know, let's try something more approachable, maybe for someone that I wasn't sure was a gamer. After like 10 minutes, she straight up asked me again, can we play something where you shoot stuff? And so now we finished Gears of War Co op, gears of war, 1, 2, 3, waiting for four.

Like, and so now what are some of the games that you play most?

Yeah, so when I'm not playing with my wife, I love playing online PC games a lot. So right now I'm like super into Overwatch and I Fill the gaps with some Hearthstone. Yeah, I just. Overwatch is my go to gem right now.

So you've been this lifelong gamer. What got you into starting companies? I think Discord's your second company. So what got you into actually becoming an entrepreneur?

Like many things, it started also when I was a kid. My dad was an entrepreneur. Very different kind than around here in Silicon Valley. My dad owned two Haagen Dazs franchises when I was growing up. So I used to see him getting up early and coming home late and just working and trying to build his own thing. He brought me in one summer and I worked behind the register and I was his best worker. This 7 year old kid scooping ice cream and work in the register. In high school I got into doing IT work for families and small businesses around where we lived in South Florida at the time and then discovered programming because I figured out you could make games by programming. Since I got into programming and it was around the time of the bubble and I figured out that I could go online and write code for people I've never met and they would send me money which I could then use to go and buy video games. And my parents actually thought that I was like selling drugs or something because I would come downstairs. I remember very, very clearly one time I came downstairs from my room and I was like, mom, how do I set up a bank account so that I can receive money from people on the Internet? And she's like, what the hell are you doing? Anyway, So I knew I always wanted to start up my own company and I kind of got a taste for how doing something that I thought was really fun programming could reward me in that way.

So if I remember, your first company ended up being called OpenFeint, but you started to build a game. Yeah, you know this, you're programming, doing it, you go to college, then it's like I think the iPhone was just coming out. And I remember you as actually early founder starting a mobile game company. And I think that's when we first interacted a little bit. And so tell us a little about that mobile game company because that's not what it ended up becoming.

Yeah, so that company actually started by launching. We launched a game the day the app store opened. So for the previous six months I had been working at an incubator, noodling around with things. We launched something. It was sort of around the rise of when Facebook platform was also opening. And I just really wanted to build a games company and thought that the launching of the app Store might Be sort of like when a new PlayStation launches or when a new Nintendo console launches. I was like, the 10 games on the shelf, so to speak, are going to get distribution. And so I was like, we're going to launch a game the day the apps are open. And we did, and we got a ton of distribution back then. It was like, who knew what this Apple Phone thing was going to be like? Wow, right? It's kind of funny. And of course, that was history in the making right there.

What was the game that you made?

So the game was called Aurora Faint, and it was basically a riff on this game called Tetris Attack, which is an obscure version of Tetris that was really popular on Super Nintendo, combined with a Lord of the Rings aesthetic and some actually very modern kind of social RPG mechanics. So we launched the game, got actually a ton of users, but it didn't end up making any money or really becoming a business. But in that game, we had built a lot of asynchronous multiplayer features that are now standard now, like leaderboards and chat rooms and messaging and sharing and quests and stuff like that. We thought maybe we take out that tech and make it available as a service for other developers to use. Sort of like Xbox Live. So we actually announced that it was in private beta before building anything. Right. Because we actually didn't have much money left. We were probably three weeks away from going back home and moving in with my parents again because the company was going to go under. But we managed to get an article announcing it in private beta. And with the mailing list of developers that signed up, I went and raised a seed round and then worked like a maniac for three months and launched OpenFeint. Yeah.

Wow. That's some bold investors. And it's a great way to sort of talk about how to raise some money based on a little bit of proof. And also, you were right at the dawn of this incredible new platform. So you go and you start building OpenFeint and it really started to work. I remember I was at Facebook at the time, working on the Facebook platform, seeing the massive explosion there of social products. And we were looking at Open Faint as kind of building. Building that first platform on mobile. So what happened there with the company?

Yeah, so that was a crazy ride, right. We spent about two years from launch until we exited. We sold to a Japanese firm called Gree for a little over $100 million. And at that time we had, I think, close to 100 million users. Something like 30% of the top 20 games were using our service. It was pretty remarkable. The personal learnings for me, which were crazy, were just going from being basically a product guy, a gamer programmer, to running a company with 100 people in the span of two years. I call it the business school of hard knocks. Right.

So you sold a degree Kind of. Where is OpenFeint today?

Selling a company is one of those things where you're working on something, you're pouring your heart into it, and you're passionate about what you're trying to create in the world. In this case with OpenFunate, we're really trying to build tools that were going to bring people together around games on mobile, much like I care about because of my life. And so when we sold the company, I was not by any matter of course thinking like, okay, we're done with that vision. People don't need to connect through games anymore. So I sold it thinking that we were going to get a platform to be able to do it in a bigger way. And after leaving, realizing that that wasn't going to be the case, I did some soul searching and realized that actually I still really deeply care about bringing meaningful games to the world and enabling people to connect and build relationships over games. And that was the founding observation behind Creating Discord.

So if I recall, you'd sold your company degree, you'd ended up leaving, you were kind of on the beach for a little while. Peter Reeland, who I know had been very involved in OpenFeint and UWeb, you know, was a friend of mine too, and he was like, you've got to meet Jason. He's going to go back and build another game. And, you know, we'd met before and so then we meet and the first time we sat down together, you pitched me a vision of a new iPad MMO that was just going to be like where everybody was going to spend time playing and you were going to go into like tablet games in the same way that you'd been first on the iPhone, kind of. And I think that was called Fates Forever. Tell us a little bit about sort of that vision of getting back in. Did you have a team? Were you doing it by yourself? Kind of. What is it that prompted you to found another company?

The funny thing is, what actually prompted me to found another company was that I was just kind of getting bored not doing anything and trying to think about what else to do. And the mission that I was on about connecting people through games really mattered to me. And so I just started working on some games as just at home by myself. After A couple months I was like, you know what, why don't I go try and raise some money and put a team together and take a real swing at this. So we started with the iPad game. The idea at that time that I was thinking was that the growth rate of the iPad market was astronomical and the curve was actually growing faster than iPhones. And so I thought if iPads end up continuing to grow at this rate and you extrapolate it out, they're going to be everywhere. And, and the way that you use an iPad is sort of like the way you use a PC. And so I thought maybe people that don't have PCs yet, or people that are buying new PCs will sort of shift to tablets. And in that case, a lot of the gaming behavior that people were doing on PCs I thought might move to tablets at the time. And still largely now there are very, very few great games for real gamers on mobile platforms. And so I was like, why don't I try and start a company that will bring that kind of high quality content to mobile? And so from that we looked around and thought that a MOBA would work really well and we could reinvent it on a touchscreen in a cool way. And so that's where we started.

So you guys started, I think you actually built it, launched it. Fates Forever was out there. Fates Forever is not the company you're running now. What did you learn from that experience?

Well, the funny thing I learned is that I'm really good at making games that look great and some people like and pivoting them into social products. What we learned from the game was that we kind of realized that the communication tools that we had been using to play games on the PC were still really broken. By going through the process of building the mobile game, we created voice chat in the game and guild features for a real time synchronous moba. And through that experience, it made us take a step back and question our own behavior while playing PC games, which we did a lot in our free time and noticing that we were still using things like Skype and Teamspeak to play. And that seemed sort of odd. And it made us start walking down the path of thinking about building Discord. Cool.

It's a well known story now of founders pivoting from one product to another one. We have Slack, which was building a game called Glitch and they ended up shutting that down and building out Slack. You guys kind of had Fates Forever. You decided to shut it down and kind of build this new product, Discord what was it actually like to decide to shut it down and go build a new product? How did you talk to your board at the time? I think Benchmark had invested by that point. How did you actually go through that process? I think a lot of entrepreneurs listening to this, that pivot is a word that we throw around so much these days, but it's hard to do.

Yeah, it is. When I think about the pivot that we've done, I guess I've done personally twice. It actually really sucks. People talk about it in sort of a glorified way that, like, you want to fail fast and you're not going to end up doing the thing you start doing. And pivoting is normal, but the reality is of being inside of that, it really, really, really sucks. There's like, two. So you asked about bored and then sort of like personal experience going through it. I mean, the challenge at a personal level going through it, which I think people don't really talk about too much, is that pivoting by definition means you've spent a lot of time pouring your heart into something and it's not working. And you have to come to grips with that, acknowledge it, name it, and then be able to think through what to do next that is constructive, all without losing your sanity. Right. So for me, in that situation, we had raised a bunch of money, $12 million at the time. I had a team of 18 people. And coming to the realization that this thing we've been working on isn't working, all these people I'm responsible for, like, that's really hard. So pivoting happens, but you shouldn't hope for it. Right? Like, you should really try and figure out if your idea has some traction before you get to the point of having other people's livelihoods dependent on you and your product. But once you find yourself in that situation, I think it's definitely better to acknowledge the reality of where you are as your company and try and do the best you can with the resources you have, as opposed to just drive it off a cliff or start being reckless, because that's not constructive for anybody. If you find yourself in a pivot situation, you want to be totally straight with your board. The thing that I did was I just went to, at the time, it was Mitch from Benchmark and Peter Relinquish from Uweb and myself, and just was straight with them. You know, like, I have been being very clear with them the whole time about how things were going with metrics and sort of the traction of the product. So they probably saw it, you know, before I did. It's one of those things where, like, you know, you're usually the last one to realize that you're drowning. So they were very supportive of how to go of working with me through the process.

It sounds like a very heart wrenching decision to decide to move on from one project and start another. But then the team came up with this real product called Discord, and it was sort of something I think you guys wanted. You said that you guys were playing games. You just hated how much it sucks. Even on your website, it still says it's time to replace Skype or Teamspeak. Get Discord. So you kind of, you know, felt that yourselves. How did you get the kernel, that idea, and how quickly did you get it built and sort of tell us about that moment where it started to work?

Yeah, sure, sure. So the idea behind the company, even starting with Fates Forever, was always to build some kind of like communication product for gamers. Right. Coming back to connecting people through games is something that I really cared about. And I felt like the tools that we were using could have been better, but I wasn't exactly sure how. And through building Fates Forever, it started to become more clear. Then during our pivot, I was having a conversation with Stan, who's one of the guys on our team, and he had a very clear articulation of what that next version of Teamspeak or Skype would look like. And he pitched it to me and I thought it was brilliant. And he just started tinkering with it while we were also working on new game concepts. And then after a couple months, it was starting to come together and we started shifting more and more engineers on it. And then we were in that point where it was like every engineer at the company was working on Discord and we had some artists working on games and we had to make some hard choices coming back to that difficult pivot. Things you do. But one of the most remarkable things about launching Discord was that actually through that first probably five months when we were building it and then testing it with our close friends, like, hey, try it. What do you think? Try it with your guilt. Try with your teams on League and getting feedback on things that are missing and things that are not missing, we got the product to a point where, in hindsight now, actually we had stopped adding new features or really doing anything to the product. And there was a three week period where it hadn't taken off. It still wasn't really working. We were talking amongst ourselves about maybe this actually isn't as important to people as we thought. And we actually just hadn't figured out how to get the word out and how to kickstart it. And so one of the most interesting lessons for me from that experience, looking back on it, is that yet again, it underscores how important distribution is to a product. Even if the product is right and the distribution channel exists, if you don't know how to find the distribution channel and get the word out in the right way, you can have the right product and it doesn't matter.

A lot of the ways I think Discord grows is virally from friends to friends. What were some of the other distribution strategies you're talking about that really helped you kickstart it?

So the first initial spark was just getting the word out on Reddit. It started to go viral on Reddit. Basically, people were talking to other people in game subreddits, asking if they had heard of Discord, what they thought of it, and then that caused more people to see it, and then they would invite their friends and then someone else would try another game and then ask about it on that subreddit. And so that started the initial wave and then the second sort of big wave that we discovered was working with Twitch streamers in particular to get the word out. A lot of Twitch streamers have been using Teamspeak to create these VIP only clubs for their subs, and there was a lot of problems with that. In particular, you only want your subs to be there, but it's really hard to restrict that in Teamspeak. So we ended up being building a Twitch integration to Discord and it solved that problem for streamers and they started talking about it on stream and inviting people in. And today thousands of partner streamers use Discord to do call in shows, do raids with their subs, play with each other, and it's just become a really great way for us to get the word out.

And I think the power of Discord is really when you're using it with your friends. But I think it's great for people to understand that there's all these distribution strategies and places you need to go where the people who you want to use your product live, Reddit, Twitch, et cetera, in order to draw them into your product. Talk a little bit more about security because you mentioned this Teamspeak challenge where you couldn't really keep people in or out or other things. And I know security is really, really important to gamers in a fundamental concept of Discord.

Yeah, yeah. So security is Critical to us. The thing with gamers is that when you're online playing games, the stability and quality of your Internet connection is probably number one, right? You're playing an online game, you need to have solid low latency, low jitter, low packet loss, Internet connection. And that also goes for your voice chat, right? Like when you're playing a real time game, you need it to work so you can talk to your teammates. So one of the problems with the existing solutions is that they're very insecure in this respect, right? Like if someone can get your IP address, they can DDoS you and take you offline. So Skype has a problem where if you see someone's Skype name, you can add them as a friend and then you can discover their IP address even without them allowing you to get it. So that's a problem. So like, gamers don't want to share their Skype names on the Internet. And it especially was a huge problem for streamers because if their Skype name would show up on stream, there are thousands of people watching them and people would DDoS them because they think it's funny.

DDOSing doesn't seem that funny, but I can see why some people like trolling.

It's a little funny sometimes, but it's our job to make it not affect people. And then with TeamSpeak also, similarly, the way that you connect to a TeamSpeak server is by sharing IP addresses. And so if the machine that your TeamSpeak server is running on goes down or gets DDoS'd, maybe not because your TeamSpeak got DDoS, but because someone else who was renting a TeamSpeak on that server got DDoS, your voice chat experience goes down. So we just designed Discord in a way using modern web technology that removes those issues completely. So your IP address is never shared with another user. And we have a very robust distributed cloud infrastructure built on Erlang that just does failover and stuff. So we get actually DDoS all the time, nonstop, all over the world, and most of our users don't notice.

That's great. And the latency is still great.

Yes, latency is amazing.

So Discord's growing. You kind of like see this product again. You got some of the strategy, the Twitch streamers working kind of when does it click for you that like, hey, this is really going to be our thing. We're going to go build a big company now around this.

Yeah. I think it became clear to me that Discord was something pretty early on. You know, like having built now Discord's probably my seventh or eighth project that I've built and shipped. It's pretty easy to see early on that week one retention and frequency of usage is just out of control. Wow, that's real.

A million weekly users is a big number already. That's incredible. And I know when I saw you, we weren't even quite at that number, but I couldn't wait to invest as we talked about what it could become. So we've been talking about Discord, and you just started to mention kind of how big gaming is. And not everybody who listens to this podcast may play League of Legends. You throw out words like twitch and subs and slacking each other and all this stuff. Just. Can you, like, back up a step and just, like, help us understand how big and how mainstream gaming is becoming? Like, these esports events, how big are they getting? And for some people, even, what's the difference between esports and just actual gaming? Because I get in the venture world, people kind of combine those and don't understand that they're actually different.

Right, right. Yeah. So gaming, core gaming, multiplayer gaming is huge. The video games industry on PC and console is like, twice as big as movies, which is pretty crazy. People don't realize that.

Was that like, a $30 billion industry?

Yeah, it's like something like that. More people watch League of, like, esports, like League of legends, Counter Strike, Dota 2, than watch, like, baseball.

Wow.

Which is kind of wacky. So, like, it's this massive thing that if you're part of the community, you're like, oh, obviously it's freaking huge, but if you're not, it seems like this weird underground thing, but it's actually massive. And so the difference primarily between esports and gaming. Right. Is that esports refers to much like in regular sports, watching professionals perform in a competitive match broadcast live. So there are lots of different games that people play that get broadcast as esports. And in order for a game to have a scene, people, like, will say it has a scene. Is basically, there's enough people that want to get together and watch people play and that people playing are good enough that it's interesting to watch. Right. So in order for a game to make a good esport, it has to have certain level of complexity and nuance so that there can be skill and sportsmanship in it. But that. That's the definition of esports, basically. Whereas gaming is like, you know, when I go. When I was saying I go home and I play overwatch with my friends, like, that's just Gaming, right? Like, I hop online, I open up the game, I click play, and then I get. We get matched up and just go shoot stuff. Like, that's not. That's like amateur football, right? I guess. I guess that maybe that's the way to think about it. Like sort of as an analogy.

What's interesting is many people watch esports, even more are gaming and are buying games and spending money in games. And it's just this giant business. I think when we were looking at stats, I think it was the overall gaming market was 90 billion in the worldwide, including mobile and console and PC and the overall movies market was somewhere in the 80s. So it just shows you how big gaming is in entertainment form. So tell us about the team. I know you guys love playing games. You know, Overwatch might be the game of choice right now. What other games do you guys play and how often do you guys even play as a team to keep that fresh?

So every month we do a game night where we just like hang out and play games until late in the morning. Recently, other than Overwatch, we've been playing a lot of Rocket League. Rocket League's been a mainstay, actually. There's a group of guys that really love playing Heroes of the Storm, Blizzard's other moba. We don't really play League of Legends as a group so much because everyone plays that when they go home. But we definitely have a League of Legends vs. Dota 2 religious war, probably once a week at lunch. Smash Brothers is a big one. People love playing Smash in our office. I like playing it too, but I'm not good enough to compete.

That's hilarious. You guys must have some serious fierce competition just. Just within Discord. Well, so we've been talking a lot about gaming, but I think one of the other really important components of Discord is that it's fundamentally a messaging app. There's, you know, people haven't played with the product. I always like it as like a combination of Skype meets Slack, like where you can talk to each other over voice, but then you can also sort of text each other in a big group. Or it's really more like IRC and traditional IRC even than Slack. But just I've heard some people compare it. You know, messaging seems to be like such a big trend right now. You know, how do you see Discord fitting in overall into kind of this theme of messaging? Is it just for gamers? Does it do things that other messages, messengers don't even do?

So Discord, we designed it and are currently Building it very much focused on gamers. Right. We put in all sorts of features that make a lot of sense for gamers, like it'll automatically show like what game you're playing next to your username. But it turns out that that like non gamers actually really enjoy the way that we've gone about building and making design decisions in Discord in particular, you know, you mentioned IRC and what we've noticed and has been awesome and surprising is that like a substantial majority of the subreddits on Reddit that are related to gaming and many that aren't have replaced their IRC chat rooms with Discord links, which is, which is really, really cool. So like, if you go to, you know, R stocks, there's a Discord channel where people are talking about trading commodities. And so I think the notion of how does online group chat evolve and change over time is something that's interesting to us because that's pretty much what we're doing with Discord, but focused on gaming and something that people haven't really been innovating on too much. Like Slack has done an amazing job at building a new chat experience for work environments. But there's a lot about the way that Slack works and sort of the contract that Slack has with the people using it and the organization using it makes it not great for just like open Internet usage.

I know there's been a bunch of developer communities like the REACT community have gotten on Discord as well. How do you think about voice versus text? Is voice the future? Is text the future? How do you see that balance? Obviously, when you're playing games, voice is really important, but it's something that we think about even more broadly right now. Sort of a voice in text disease communication paradigms. People say they never make phone calls anymore.

I don't actually make phone calls unless I'm calling my parents, but I use Discord all the time. So I use computers to send my voice to other people. I just don't call them phone numbers. I mean, I think talking to people will always have a place. I don't think there's ever a point in time when you're going to be like, nah, I don't really want to talk to anyone anymore.

You just got to type.

Yeah, I mean, some people might prefer to type, but what we see is that there's a time and a place for typing and there's a time and a place for talking. Actually, people use both features pretty evenly split.

You're a messaging product and over the past six months We've been hearing almost non stop about bots with messaging products. Whether it's bots in messenger, bots in Slack. What do you think about bots in Discord?

Right, right. We actually have a bot API and people have built bots in Discord and some of them are really cool. Master Overwatch is this site again for Overwatch, where they have a bot you can add to your server and then they give you slash commands where you can look up your competitive rank of the people in your server. And that's really cool. But I think generally speaking, as a trend, bots have been way overhyped. Presently the technology is basically you get slash commands in your chat product, which is cool. And I think for some businesses, allowing users to request data or send data to them through a chat product can be an awesome way to remind people that the service exists. And some services, that's really all you need is to send a notification. But the notion that bots inside of chat apps are going to somehow replace rich UI seems kind of wacky to me. Like, we actually make a joke, we joke about this a lot, where we're like, okay, we have slash commands, we should add buttons. And then like, okay, once we have buttons, we need to have a rich UI so people can like have more data and update things. So why don't we create a markup language that people can embed inside of the chatbot UI so they can show stuff and we can just call it hypertext.

That makes a certain amount of sense. And yet I still laugh whenever somebody uses the air horn bot on Discord for me.

Yeah, but see, that's the thing. I think bots as a feature inside of a messaging product, they can definitely add power to a messaging product. Like getting GitHub notifications when people commit things or tweet notifications when things on Twitter happen is awesome. Right? But like, I'm not sure that there is a large array of products that exist right now where you could build a defensible business on top of a chatbot, given the current state of AI technology. Right. Like a lot of like, I think the vision behind chatbots is really cool. If you could have an artificial intelligent agent that can actually converse with you and do things, you know, contextually based on what you want, that's cool. Although I think there'll be like a creep factor to it because the best one is like, we're talking about something and then some weird AI bots like, hey guys, I heard you were talking about going to Hawaii. This is a flight you know, like that's like Google level. That's like Google Ads, Gmail level. So, like, we're not gonna do that stuff.

We had another talk recently with Biz Stone from Jelly, another podcast. And, you know, a lot of what we talked about was where this stuff is going with Alexa and the always on listening from your Amazon Echo and where that could go. And there actually is a lot of interesting stuff happening there. But I agree that it's early and there's still a lot to form. So just to kind of help wrap it up. Look, Discord has just been amazing. We got millions of people talking, texting, sharing, playing together. Where do you want to go from here? How do you make the experience even better?

Yeah, you know, there's so much to do with building communication products for gamers to make it better. I think at this point we've got kind of broad strokes, what we wanted to build, and now it's just a question of refining it, making it better, and thinking about how we can augment the experience in a better way. Right. Like, one thing that I'll share that we really want to do at some point in the future is improve our overlay. Right. Like, overlay technology has not really advanced much in the last 10 years. Like, I think ours is really cool. It's like state of the art, if you will. But compared to what it should be, it's like how come you can't text chat with your friends or easily share images and that sort of stuff.

And overlay. Just define overlay for us.

Right. So overlay refers to when you're playing a game, a full screen game, to be able to overlay Discord UI onto that game without having to switch out of context. So like while you're playing a first person shooter or a MOBA, like if your character dies, let's say you get 15 seconds to wait. It would be great if in those 15 seconds you could do something to connect with your friends other than just talking to them.

Lastly, you've built mobile games. You started this company building a tablet game. We've talked mostly about Discord used within PC games, where a lot of the core gaming is really happening today. Do you think we're still going to get to a future where a lot of core gaming happens in mobile tablets? Will Discord be there?

Discord will be wherever core gaming goes. We have an amazing mobile app on iPhone, Android and iPad. It's full Discord, you know, feature set. It's not clear to me yet though, when core gaming will arrive in a big way on mobile. My playheart's not a lot on my phone, but PC is vibrant, it's thriving. You know, I spend most of my gaming time there. And, you know, people have been calling the death of the PC for a very long time. And it's, it's just, it's kicking ass.

Gaming's been great for PC industry. Well, Jason, thank you so much for taking the time to tell us your story. Through pivots, through tough things to this great success. We hope we'll keep on going in discord.

All right, thanks, Josh.