#133 - When Performance Becomes Personal: Mental Health, Identity, and the Injured Athlete with Dr. Karolina Shander, Part 3

Welcome to The Factor Podcast, where we talk about the stuff they didn't teach you in school. How to grow your practice, refine your clinical skills, and get better results for your patients. We're here to help you navigate the real-world challenges of being a healthcare provider, from delivering top-notch patient care to running a business that doesn't run you into the ground. Whether you're fresh out of school or scaling your practice, we're diving into effective cutting-edge treatments to get patients better faster. We'll also talk about business strategies and tactics to help you work smarter and not harder, and the mindset shifts required to thrive as a top performer in your field so you can build a career you love without burning out. If you're ready to learn what works and what doesn't from leading experts, industry innovators, and respected clinicians across a wide range of specialties, you're in the right place, my friend. Let's dive in. Welcome back to The Factor Podcast, where we bridge the gap between rehab, performance, and real-world clinical practice. I'm your host, Jessica Riddle, and today we're closing out our 3-part conversation with Dr. Carolina Shander, licensed psychologist and certified mental performance consultant who specializes in sport and performance psychology. Throughout this series, we've talked about the whole human behind the athlete, the role of identity, mental health, pain, recovery, burnout, agency, and communication in clinical care and performance. In this final part of the conversation, we move into resources, referral pathways, and what providers can actually do when they recognize that a patient may need support beyond the physical care plan. Dr. Shander shares practical places to look for mental health and performance psychology providers, how to think about finding the right fit, and why building a relationship with a trusted provider in your area can make it easier to support patients when those needs arise. We also talk today about accessible resources for patients who may not have the financial means for one-on-one care, including support groups, low-cost options, books, apps, and community-based resources. And finally, we'll touch on the role of AI in mental health and performance care, where it may be useful for education or finding resources, But why it can't fully replace the human connection that makes therapy so meaningful. This episode is a practical and thoughtful close to a conversation every provider should be having. How do we treat the person in front of us, not just the injury that they walked in with? Let's dive into part 3 of my conversation with Dr. Carolina Shander.

What are some practices that you would recommend for healthcare providers to do for themselves to prevent burnout and to help them be healthy and be in a place where they can continue to give at such a high level?

You just said something super important about burnout, or even like, let's say challenges. Sometimes because we're so driven, but also we're doing so many things and supporting so many people, like we don't notice it in ourselves. And so some Something I like to ask people is, when do you know that you're performing at your best? And then be able to scale that back to like, when do you know that you're performing just at like meets expectations and that you're doing just enough, right, to get by? And if those are the things that are different and you're not kind of lining up to those, then maybe you start to ask yourself questions of like, okay, maybe there's something I need to shift and change. But. A big part is awareness and also prevention. So like being aware and also kind of doing some of these mental skills or mental performance skills for prevention are the 2 things that make people really elite, at least from my experience, because we gotta know ourselves super well. And then we also gotta look at things in a way from prevention and not just reaction. And so for practitioners, it's about how do we implement breaks and not breaks like self-care, like, oh, I'll take 2 weeks off or whatnot to, to recover and rejuvenate, but what What does it look like to take 15 minutes to ourselves before we start our workday, literally just sitting in our car, to be able to either meet ourselves where we're at and ask ourselves, like, what do I need right now? Or to jam out in our car and give ourselves just, I guess, the space to just be and feel whatever we want to feel. I also recommend being able to have like a regular check-in with like, how am I doing? Maybe it's on a Sunday, but maybe not. Sunday scares too. But like maybe at some point during the week that you know and you can depend on. Giving yourself the opportunity to not have to be available to anybody else but yourself. I think the helping profession, including myself, we get wrapped up in how helpful I can be to somebody else versus that I also have to be helpful to myself. I also think about what are the kind of 3 non-negotiables that I as a human have each day to make myself be able to function at just like a baseline. Like for me, it's some kind of movement, at least a cup of coffee, And then a favorite snack. Like, I have to have some kind of favorite snack every day that I look forward to because that gives me that like jolt and excitement of like, okay, I'm not just like eating, you know, my egg bites or like my, my fruit or anything like that, but something that's going to gimme that extra jolt in the afternoon that I can depend on. I think the big part about burnout is there's no kind of anticipation of relief. And if we can build that in throughout our day, within our week, within our month, we're more likely to be able to feel like, okay, I'm honoring what I need and what I feel right now and I can be okay.

And I've heard that some too, when it comes to like the, even the neuroscience behind motivation and behind fulfillment in your career or even other areas of life. Your brain needs novelty and your brain needs something to look forward to. And I think one of the things that you said was so important is that it doesn't have to be a 2-week vacation because oftentimes, especially if you are a business owner or a parent or someone who has a heavy amount of responsibility you're carrying, you can't just peace out. But if you can build in little things like having a favorite snack, like having something to look forward to in your day-to-day, or even something once a week, that can be a really crucial component. And I think, you know, I would venture to guess even asking your patients about that too. Like, do you have something on a regular basis that you do just for you? Like, how are you? Feeding yourself, not just from a food standpoint, but how are you like feeding your soul right now? What are you doing to incorporate something positive in your, your daily life?

Yeah. And having that awareness of how and what fuels your soul, right? Like, I think something that's really effective sometimes for, for people is this idea of just being a little bit more mindful and aware, right? Like, so can we slow things down? Can I pay attention to, okay, when I drive up to my office, do I just shut the car off really quickly and run out And get in, in, in the office? Or do I take a second and like take a couple deep breaths? And do I make sure I have my water and my coffee and my snack and like, okay, I'm, I, I have what I need today. And, and give myself, I guess, that promise that I have everything that I need today. And, or, or maybe just the awareness that I don't, and that's okay. But to slow down just a little bit. I mean, that awareness just allows us to feel so much more comfortable and safe over time because our body is prepared for us to do so. If we're constantly, for example, running, like you'll be running from a bear forever versus like, oh, I have a hiding spot. I'm able to take a sit down and be able to rest and be okay. I mean, our body and our nervous system responds so much better to promises of rest and recovery than it does to a never-ending goal that we don't know when we're going to get there and achieve.

I know a lot of high achievers and Or driven individuals, and I can even speak from my own experience, sometimes have feelings of guilt for taking, even if it's small, you have guilt because there's a never-ending to-do list.

Yeah.

Feel like, especially a lot of times caregivers or parents experience this where it's like, how do I take time for me when they need so much? Do you feel like it is helpful to pre-plan or to schedule these instances of rest or these instances of feeding your soul, so to speak, is that a better way to kind of counteract that guilt that inevitably comes from that? If they at least know it's coming, or if you can at least plan it or set it aside, then maybe that takes away some of the weight of the guilt of all the other things that are stacking up while I'm taking this time.

I mean, first of all, I would be really curious of like where that guilt comes from because I mean, it is. Pretty common, but where it comes from is different for different kinds of people. But I think pre-scheduled is always important because there's that dependability and almost like accountability or responsibility you create for yourself, as well as the fact that like, you know, it's there and you can, you show up to 8:00 AM on a Thursday and you know that that's your half-hour walk or your time that you have for yourself. For sure. I think what is important, at least for me, to assess and access is What kind, how do we build in this kind of time and rest that it actually makes sense to you for you to be able to do it and commit to it and function? Because I don't know about you, but there have been moments in my life where I've like taken a day off and I end up doing more on my day off than I did on my workday because I put all of my other things on my day off because I feel like I need to do them versus to be able to start to understand similar to like an athlete, right? Of like, Rest isn't just about doing nothing, but it's about like, okay, how do I give myself peace for a minute? How do I reset my nervous system to be able to fire on all cylinders tomorrow and to make it feel important for me and to make it feel important for that practitioner or that athlete that, wow, okay, I took that 30 minutes and maybe I was a little bit more anxious the rest of the day cuz I felt like I could have done something else then, but dang, I slept better. Or like my stomach hurt a little bit less, or I wasn't as crabby to my husband. Like being able to also help somebody build the awareness of what the effect of that rest is, is actually probably going to help us be able to schedule it a little bit more often or a little bit more. So to answer your question, yes, but there's some other caveats in there I would add.

Absolutely. And I, I understand too that as a healthcare provider and as someone that is a healer, I'm sure this is also very true to healthcare providers like yourself that are in the mental health field. You are in a position to where you're coming alongside these patients in their healing journey and you're carrying a little bit of the load, right? Whether that means that you're using your hands on them to treat their physical body, whether that means you're sitting down and you're having deep conversations with them and kind of unpacking some things from a mental or emotional standpoint. How important has having some type of ritual for you as a provider Maybe in between patient visits, maybe at the end of the day, to kind of reset things for yourself. Because I know, especially people who are very empathetic, you feel a lot. And sometimes you feel the emotions of other people, or you feel the energy coming from other people. And many times when you are seeing people in pain, they may be at some of— experience some of the worst times of their life. How important have you found having some type of ritual or practice that you do on a regular basis to kind of— and I don't mean to use the cheesy word like cleanse yourself, but like, how do you, how do you get it off of you? How do you get that negative energy or that, those emotions that this other person is experiencing that sometimes may even churn up things within yourself? What do you recommend to make sure that these providers are kind of able to reset themselves and their own nervous system after those interactions?

That's a good question. And I'm smiling because a big part of my work is to feel the emotions in the room, especially when somebody can't. And so being able to hold that and work with it and access it is massive. And I didn't realize how important it was to, I guess, like, take care of myself until, I don't know, like 5 years ago, where part of the, the answer to your question is, is being able and open to change changing like what I need to do. What I've noticed for myself when I have a really hard day or a day that just feels like, wow, like it was really good one but really active and there was a lot at play and, and there was so much kind of work going on, I actually need to drive home in silence. I need to give myself the, the silence to not call and make appointments or to call somebody that I need to talk to that I've wanted to talk to for a while, but to just give myself the 40-minute drive to See what comes up for me because I haven't had actually the silence to do so. That I found important. I find movement really helpful. So we work on a 50-minute window, and so 0 to 50, and so then I have that 10 minutes to grab a snack, pee, do whatever. But what I found for myself that's really important, which is also super like— it's shown in the research of changing position. So like I might be sitting in my desk chair like on a video call, and then I'll literally lay down my floor just for a minute. And just to be able to change like my body position, to be able to be like, oh, I'm in a different place and be able to reset for the next person. Or I go sit out, or I go sit outside just for literally 30 seconds to get some vitamin D, but to just change my position in my environment. Because our body needs some kind of reminder, hey, I'm okay. Hey, I need a little reset, as well as my own self-talk of like being able to create safety and predictability for myself that, yeah, I'm feeling a lot right now. But I will have some time to decompress it and relax when I drive home, being able to remind myself of that time that I have kind of set aside for myself to give permission to feel whatever I need to feel. And then that might change at different times, at different times in my life and at different times in my career. I actually needed to go do something physically like hard to feel like I can work through some of those emotions.

Mm-hmm.

So for example, like I would, I'd always joke if I wasn't a psychologist, I would be a SoulCycle instructor. 'Cause I love to like, just like swing to the beat, beat of the music in a dark room. where nobody can see me and I can just feel whatever I need to feel. And that is something that I learned about myself, but that's because I got super curious of like what actually helps me, what makes me feel like me, rejuvenated. And so I practiced and tried a lot of different things, even if they didn't apply to me. Like some of my friends do some like meditation and I struggle with that. So that wasn't what I did. Or like they really love to listen to audiobooks and it's like, eh, that's not my thing either. But to give yourself permission to try different things, even if they're a little bit more unconventional.

I think that's huge is about figuring out what works for you. I'm very much like you. Like I like to work things out physically. I have a Peloton because we don't have a SoulCycle here and I really wish we did because it was like, but yeah, I mean, it honestly like that saved me going through COVID and like a time when there were big feelings and you didn't really know what to do with them. And it's interesting that you said that about meditation because I know that There's so much great research about the benefits of meditation and mindfulness and breathwork. If you are a person who doesn't do the sit in silence thing well, what do you recommend to still have that mindfulness practice? Like, is there, is it good to have like mantra or guided meditation? Is it good to have breathwork? And what would you recommend as kind of like at a minimum, if you could do this much when it comes to meditation or mindfulness every day?

Yeah.

It can be impactful for your mental, mental health.

So don't completely quote me, but I think it's the research would show that like 5 minutes a day of some kind of meditation, mindfulness, and that can look on various levels, actually improves like outcomes, I think like 10 to 20%, whether that's mental health outcomes or performance outcomes. There's a lot of research about like injury and imagery to be able to, if you're doing about 5 minutes a day, There's about, I think, 10% of an increase in healing, especially with ACL recovery. But I, I have to go look at the numbers again and I can quote that for myself. But there, there is a lot of data on that. I think what's important is I'm not a sit in silence kind of human and meditate, but I, I love mindful walking. There are also like ways that you can incorporate mindfulness and meditation into the things that you're doing, whether that's walking or running or cooking. It's about really figuring out and finding what works best for you. There's a couple apps that Mm-hmm. Are really useful. I let me see if I can pull up my phone, but I think it's Healthy Minds. I think it just changed into Human is one of the apps that they have various voices, which are different for different people and feel a lot more connecting or not. And they last from like five minutes to thirty minutes. But there's tons of stuff actually on YouTube that you can implement some breathwork and mindfulness into stuff you already do, right? And again, kind of part of it is how how to find something that you're going to commit to and do often that it's a part of your practice and who. are, right? It's not just about sitting in silence and, I don't know, dissociating and staring out into the distance, but more so like, how do I give myself the space to relax and give myself some peace? And so honestly, 5 minutes a day is enough. Some people love more, some people don't, but I think 5 minutes a day is, is really great.

That's huge. And I think that's a great little tip or takeaway for the healthcare providers that'll be listening is If you have someone that is recovering from whatever they're dealing with from a physical standpoint, if you can provide them with resources, if you can make recommendations about other ways that they can improve their healing or impact their healing in a positive way. So you mentioned that there are a number of different apps that can help with mindfulness meditation. Another question that I definitely wanted to cover today is if I'm a healthcare provider, And I realized that my patient may need to see someone in the mental health space. What would you recommend in terms of like, what should they be looking for as far as finding someone in their area to refer patients to? Are there different websites, directories? Like, where do I go and where do I find someone that will be a great resource for my patient?

Well, there's, I think, A lot of different places that you can search, right? Good old Chad and Claude can do that for you a little bit too. I think first of all, it depends on if you're gonna be using insurance or not. And, and my favorite thing to utilize first is like going on Psychology Today and just kind of putting in, yeah, if there's specifications for your area and then literally reading people's bios and having conversations. So I know that is a little bit tedious, but having conversations with people and seeing if like, wow, is this somebody that I can connect with? Whether that's because I'm sending somebody, a patient, or this is even for myself, right? To be able to see like, can I have a conversation with this person? Do we connect? What kind of vibes do I feel? I'm a big vibes girl. I feel like there's a, there's a gut kind of inclination and connection. And to be able to listen to that is really important. I tell this to people all the time. I can, I can know a lot of things and I have a lot of information in my brain, but if you can't connect with me, then like, that's That's okay, and I'm not your provider, and I will find you somebody else that's going to be really great. I think that's also my biggest recommendation, just starting somewhere and creating a relationship with a provider who then can also send you other people's names. There is a— especially for sport performance people, there is a couple different places to look. The APA Division 47 is for sport and performance psychology within the American Psychological Association. That is going to have a directory of some people that are in the field, as well as ASP, or people who with the credentials CMPC for the Certified Mental Performance Consultants. Those are gonna be the places that have a directory of who has the credentials to be able to work with sport and performance as well as some kind of clinical background. And honestly, reaching out to them and developing a relationship is gonna be the first step as a practitioner. And then they can direct you to somebody that might be a better fit, whether that's cuz of location, cuz of our licensing, or just In terms of fit and knowledge of what the person has going on for them.

100%. I know that within many of the professionals that we work with, or the professions that we serve, I should say, we have options for what we call like travel to treat. So you might be licensed in only one state, but if you are working on behalf of a sports team, you have the ability to travel with them and treat in other states. Is there something similar in your field?

Yeah, if you are like, if I were to be working with a like pro team, then I can treat obviously if we're traveling in the States, but, but where you're based is where your primary license should be. As a psychologist, there's also a credential called PSYPACT, which is currently right now serving 43 states. So we're able to do telehealth across those states and, and be in those states when treating individuals. And so that's really, really helpful for us and allows us to, to reach a pretty big population. That I'm really grateful for.

Yeah, that's incredible. One of the final questions that I'll ask, because I know this has been an incredible conversation, but you have patients to get back to.

Absolutely.

I wanna be respectful of your time. If I have a patient who does need resources, and unfortunately I wish, and I think this is just my personal opinion, I feel like if our healthcare system would figure out a way to have more access to mental health services, make them more affordable for more people, that could absolutely change our world. But that's a whole different conversation there. But if I have a patient who's concerned about the cost, maybe they don't have mental health coverage on their insurance, maybe they are not in a financial position to add a lot more onto their Regular expenses when it comes to seeing a mental health provider. You mentioned there are some apps that could be helpful for things like meditation, mindfulness. What other resources would you recommend that healthcare providers should just kind of have saved as bookmarks in their browser or kind of have a file with their front office to say, you know what, if we have patients that need help and, or need to even just have a little bit more support? But if we want to be able to give them options so that if they're not in a financial position to seek out a provider for one-on-one care, what would you recommend? Or what type of resource— resources are out there that can help those that don't necessarily have the financial means to see someone one-on-one from a counseling standpoint, but maybe still at least need to start? Having some type of, of support in some way that's accessible.

Yeah, you asked a really, really great question. I think from like a, like sport performance space, there's probably a couple more things that I can share and I can say a couple of those books from just like a clinical mental health space. I mean, there are some resources on the NAMI website, the National Mental Health Alliance website. They have 24/7 support. There's also some support groups there. I also know of like, for example, like y'all in Houston, They through a couple of the hospitals, I I would always encourage kind of Googling with with the hospitals. They have some groups depending on what the person might be dealing with, whether that's with chronic pain or postpartum, or they have a couple different ones for some of the major hospitals that are free, which which is helpful as well as virtual. It depends on the human, like what their challenges are, what they're what they're working with. Also in in terms of like eating disorders, like ERC, so the Eating Disorder Recovery Center has a couple locations throughout the United States, and they have some like virtual resources for people to. that are, that are free or low cost. I think another just like pinpoint or thing to think about is there are low-cost fee services for student clinicians. And so that may not always be an ideal option, or somebody might feel some kind of way about that to see a student clinician. But I was once a student clinician and people took a chance on me. And that just means you are supervised by either a licensed professional counselor or a licensed psychologist, and those fees are usually reduced. And so your care is still being taken care of by somebody who is well-seasoned in the field, but it is give practice to the student who is learning how to be in the field. And those, I mean, there's lots of Facebook groups that are kind of servicing those needs. And so I would look up low-cost services in your area for student clinicians. And so that can be an option for some of those who want one-on-one care at a lower cost. In terms of like books or like apps for just clinical mental health, I'm, I mean, there's a range of those, honestly, that I really would struggle to name off the top of my head. But when it comes to like books for sport and performance, I would start with like Peak Performance by Steve Magness and somebody else, Mindset by Carol Dweck. Range is a really good book. It's a green mint cover. I forgot what the author's name is. And then also The Mindful Athlete is a really great place to start. And so those would be places that I would begin with regarding kind of receiving some additional support. But I think something that I always encourage I know people may struggle financially and it's a huge gap in our field. And my, my always kind of recommendation is to ask, like, hey, are there any low-cost options or services or abilities to do so? Because I know I'm willing, like I am in private practice and there is a fee that I charge, but I am usually almost always willing to make some kind of change for somebody who needs the support or wants the support, as long as it feels right. to the both of us. And so I like to have that kind of conversation upfront and be able to say, like, I want to help you. And so what might that look like feasibility-wise? And so I would always ask. It may feel really vulnerable. I know that was a hard thing for me when I was growing up to ask for some kind of lower fee. But I would ask because a lot of us in the field are more willing to do that than might be expected.

Yeah, no, that's huge. Another kind of final question for you. I'm very curious to hear, and I've asked many of the experts that I've spoken with in different different fields. How do you feel like the AI revolution that we're in right now is going to impact your field if you were to look ahead the next 3 to 5 years? How is it already kind of disrupting some of the work that you do, in a, in a positive or negative way?

I mean, in a positive way, right? Like, ChatGPT and Claude can give you some resources and support or some like books, like for certain challenges and quicker than probably you can just Google. And so I think that AI can be helpful in that kind of way. It can also find providers quicker than just like a psychology search might, might do. And so that's kind of nice. I think the challenge and my hesitation, just like, I mean, there are resources for clinical mental health, but nothing replaces therapy. Nothing replaces that relational bond and that ability to be with somebody in the trenches and have this understanding of the whole human. And that is probably my biggest qualm with it, because my belief is that therapy is about understanding the person, their attachments, their relational behaviors, their personality, and how they fit within a system. And then that system actually plays out between me and the patient. Whatever that— like, their patterns of behavior are in the outside world, it happens for me in the room. And so if we can't have that in our relationship, and, and you're just— the patient is looking for that within the computer, it's not going to produce the same results. And it's going to be a little bit— it's gonna be a lot less effective, and it's gonna feel pretty cold. And I think that's the difference between being with, with people and just being able to look for some of the reassurance and support with AI. I think another really great part of AI is being able to help our, our field create stuff like PowerPoints and whatnot. So maybe simplifies some of those things for us. But I think it's getting in the way of this human connection piece that is invaluable and is actually creating a pretty big barrier for people wanting to come in because of the vulnerability of sitting with somebody, despite it being the thing that actually probably changes their experience the most.

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much. This has been incredibly educational and informative. As kind of a final question and, and one key thing to leave with our audience today, based upon all of your education, your experience so far in your field, if you could wave a magic wand and impart like one key takeaway to healthcare providers that are either someone who's been in practice for decades or somebody that's just getting started. Like, what is one key takeaway or one thought that you'd like to leave the audience with that they can take into practice tomorrow and really start implementing? I know we've talked a lot about things that they need to look for, different things that they may need to incorporate into their practice in terms of their typical patient experience, but is there anything else that you feel like could be just something that they really need to Either seek out to learn a little bit more about, or maybe just have a better awareness of going into their next patient visit?

I mean, number one, I think creating a relationship with a practitioner in your area would be really important to be able to just get some more information about whether that's mental health related topics or any kind of performance skills. I think being able to just create a relationship is super important so that it's also not on you to find those resources when your person needs them.

Yes.

Because there's already so much, right? Like you're already in charge of so much and maybe that's something you can punt to us. And that, that's kind of one. And then secondly, to get curious about you as well as your patients. Like somebody might say, hey, my neck hurts. But being able to just be like, what do you, like, what do you mean by that? Like share a little bit more about that. 'Cause I think sometimes we assume what something might mean. Or someone says like, oh, I feel sad.

Right.

And, and I can say, oh yeah, I know what sad feels like, but I know what sad like feels like for me, but not what it feels like for you. And that actually might, number one, relieve some of the tension for yourself as a practitioner, feel like you need to fix it right away in that moment, but more so of like to help them help you understand while also empowering them to understand like what their pain is, what their struggle is, what's happening for them. That's what I would start with, of like, if, if you can just get curious and almost not leave behind everything you know, because that's so freaking important, but more so to just continue to ask questions about what you think you might already understand will help make huge differences really, really quickly. I know it has for myself, just getting curious of like, yeah, like, what, what does it feel like? What does it look like? What does it sound like? What, what is, what is that pain? Like, painting a picture can really help us get even deeper to what's really going on underneath the surface.

That's huge. I I think what you said there about if someone says they're sad, like, I know what sad is for me. I know how that feels in, in my body. I know how that feels in my experience. But for that person, it could be something very different.

Mm-hmm.

So I think that's really important. Like, ask them to paint you a picture of what their experience is, and then start fresh and come into each interaction understanding that This is a completely different human than the one that you saw 10, 15 minutes ago and a completely different human than yourself, which is incredible. So, well, thank you so much again for taking the time today. I really appreciate it. And again, we got some really great information and takeaways for our healthcare providers today. Again, thank you so much.

Thank you.

That wraps up our 3-part conversation with Dr. Carolina Shander. Across this series, Dr. Shander helped us think more deeply about the connection between mental health, physical recovery, performance, identity, burnout, and the provider-patient relationship. And in this final episode, she gave us a practical reminder that supporting the whole patient Does not mean that every healthcare provider needs to become a mental health professional. It means we need to stay curious, ask better questions, listen more carefully, and know when to bring another trusted provider into the care team. One of the strongest takeaways from this conversation is that relationships matter. Whether we're talking about therapy, rehab, performance, or recovery, healing is not just about protocols and plans. It's also about trust, connection, communication, and understanding what pain, injury, or performance pressure actually means to the person experiencing it. Dr. Shander also reminded us that while AI and digital tools may help patients and providers find resources more quickly, they cannot replace the human relationship that sits at the heart of meaningful mental health care. So, as you head back into practice, consider this your reminder to get curious. When a patient tells you something hurts, ask what that pain means to them. When they seem stuck, ask what feels hard. When they're struggling to follow through with your treatment plan or maybe their at-home exercises, ask what's getting in the way. Those questions may open the door to a deeper understanding of the person behind the symptoms. A big thank you to Dr. Carolina Shander for sharing her expertise, her perspective, and such practical guidance for clinicians that work with athletes, performers, and high-achieving individuals. As always, thank you for listening to The Factor Podcast. If the series is helpful, share it with a colleague, coach, or provider who works with athletes or patients navigating pain, performance, recovery, or identity shifts. We so appreciate you, and any of those likes, follows, and sharing of episodes helps to grow our network and helps our content reach more healthcare providers like you. Until next time, keep learning, refining your systems, and keep raising the standard of care.

We'll see you then.

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