Sales Pipeline Mastery: B2B Growth Secrets

My guest today says that he has a predictable sales revenue growth strategy for us. Personally, my experience is that predictability and sales are contradictions in terms, so I'm looking forward to finding out what he has to say. This man has a long and illustrious career in business. He's worked with some of the largest names in coaching, but he is joining us today from Nashua, in New Hampshire. I'm joined by Doug C. Brown, who is the CEO of a company called CEO Sales Strategies. Doug, welcome to the show.

Hey, Jim, thank you. Welcome, uh, to, to everybody, and thank you for having me here.

Doug, you are saying that you can help entrepreneurs like me get a guarantee of sales growth.

How? It's a magic question, right?

So it's the big question that we all face. If we solve the sales problem, then cash flow comes in and you can solve anything else, in my experience, right?

So I'll start off by saying the master prospector will always outsell the master closer, right?

So do you want to clarify what do you mean by a master prospector? Because that's a bit tradecraft language, that.

Yeah, so the master prospector, if we think about this, sales, you know, a lot of times people say sales, you know, they're numbers, right? It's like sales are in the numbers. Yes and no. So it's in the numbers, but it's really how you apply the math to the numbers. So the master prospector understands how the math works. And so the master prospector will outsell the master closer Because, Jim, they're producing high-quality sales-ready leads. And so they're producing a lot of high-quality sales-ready leads. And so the master closer, let's say they're producing, uh, 10 leads a month and they're closing 5 of them, 50% close rate. But the master prospectors producing, let's say, 20 of them a month and closing at, say, 35% or 30%, right? They're going to outsell the mass. But now you might say, well, aren't they working harder? No, they're actually working easier. And I can explain how this works. But the reality is when you're producing very high quality leads, you will have a high close rate anyways. And that's how they work a lot easier. So in essence, the master prospector, if they produce 20 leads, will still close at 50%. And the reason they'll close at 50% is because those leads are highly qualified, sales-ready leads. So instead of getting 5 sales a month, you get 10 sales a month. Now, how do you make that predictable, right?

That's— I was going to say, Doug, so just to recap that then, So what we're saying is that when sales is a numbers game, actually it is a quality numbers game, right? It's not just a volume game, it's a value game. Is that a fair way to summarize that?

Yeah, it very much is. I'll give you a real-life example. When I was in the telecommunications industry, I worked for a corporation and I was the number one rep in the company. Now I will tell you, I knew very little about telecommunications when I first started there. I actually overnighted myself 3 telecommunications engineering books, read them over a weekend. That's how I learned about telecommunications. And so I didn't know as much as all the other people knew technically, but I knew some of the terms and how to finesse my way through a conversation at that point, right? And so what I did know is how to generate high-quality leads. And so I ended up becoming the number one rep in that company, not because I was the greatest closer at that time. I was the best prospector at the time. So what I did is I would ask questions like, who needs this service that other people are serving? And so I would sell long distance, local data. Well, telephone salespeople or telephone, what we used to call vendors, people who sold phone systems. Now, if you think about the magic of this, these people have been working with their clients for sometimes 30 years selling them phone systems. Well, there's high trust built there. So I went to all of these phone vendors, the data vendors, hardware vendors, and I made a deal with them and I said, If I can get someone to buy a new phone system from you, will you set me up this way and bring me into your account? And they said yes. Now, I was getting over a 70% close ratio on these leads. So what did I do? I started building relationships with all these things, Jim, and then at the height, I was having 62 incoming calls a day from clientele. I had hired multiple assistants to handle all the volume. I was outselling myself. We had teams of 9. I was outselling some months 5. One month I outsold 6 teams of 9 combined.

But Doug, that sounds just insane. So again, you've prospected companies, in this particular case it was B2B sales, right? Right. So you've identified that they've really got a need. Right. Beyond the need, presumably they have been targeted by other companies selling similar products. What did you do then to move to the front of the queue? I mean, I know that there must be some techniques and Doug, by the way, has a background in music, but also has a degree in nuclear science. So, he's got a combination of skills there. I'm just wondering, what did you do to move yourself to the front of the queue and to the top of the page?

So, to answer the question, positioning and alignment in sales is critical. So, if I said to you, most of us in the world know, say, Oprah Winfrey. Right? Or, you know, and I said, you know, you're looking for personal development or a little bit of business help. I can introduce you to Oprah Winfrey. Oprah Winfrey, you're not going to question her pedigree or her credibility, right? Right. Because she's well positioned. Right? I mean, if we said, you know, Tony Robbins, or we said anybody who's who's not, even if they're controversial, like even like our president now, Donald Trump, he's controversial, but people know him. There's a positioning there. Like him, love him, whatever. He's got great positioning. What I did is I built positioning through the trust of these people who have been working. Imagine if your doctor made a referral to you. You wouldn't question your doctor's referral in most cases if you respected that doctor. Yeah, absolutely. So these, these vendors of these equipment have been taking care of these companies for decades. They've had family generations that have been taking care of those. So when they brought me in, I was an extension of that. Okay. And so what all I had to do is show a business return on investment or a personal return on investment. Or both, because that's what people buy off of. What are my tangible benefits? What are my intangible benefits? And so I would go and literally say something like, you're looking to buy new equipment? Yes. Okay. If I took your phone bill that you're now spending $10,000 a month and I drop that down to $6,000 a month, you have $4,000 a month that you basically now have in profit because you're spending this out and all that money goes right to your bank account. Is that correct? Yes. Would you be willing if I could do that to take $1,000 a month and buy your new equipment and you'll have $3,000 a month left over? Yes. How does that impact your company? Well, it allows us to go hire someone else. How does that impact you personally? Well, it makes me look really good in my company. It gives me a promotion. It gives me this, you know, I have a little bit of boasting rights, right? All of these things. And this was the conversation I was having with these people. And so, we'd show it in the numbers. They would sign on the line, a 3 to 5-year contract. I would get handsomely paid. I would take a piece of that and pay the vendor, right? So, they were getting money from me. They were getting new phone service or new data, new hardware, whatever. And it was just a win-win-win all the way around. So, we created a win-win-win. Now, these clients, trusted me now as much as they trusted the vendors. So then when I asked for referrals to expand the sale or they needed something else, I was always there with follow-up that they were just now buying again and again and referring their friends and their peers. So that's how that business grew. And it was very predictable. I could, I could, I knew exactly what my numbers were, Jim. And on the front end of our model, we have a mathematical model and I'd be happy to go through that. Which can show you and pinpoint if you want to grow by 62%, I can show you actually in the numbers how you can do that.

Doug, I think that'd be great to do that. But just to summarize, if I may, this approach where it sounded as though you had some closed questions first. If I did this for you, would you like it? Yes, no, but it's an obvious yes. So, it's the customer, potential customers, obliged in a way to answer yes in a positive way to each of your first, I think there's 3 questions. And then you moved into what would that look like for the company? And then what would it look like for you? So it's almost a foxtrot, if I can use that dance analogy.

Yes.

You got them moving in step with you, didn't you? And they found themselves on the dance floor with you, feeling like you're whisking them away. But actually everyone was having a good time.

Yes. And I call those yes states. You want to create a yes state. So it's very perceptive of you, Jim. Actually, you're the first person who's interviewed me on a podcast who's ever caught that. So it's not manipulative. It's not manipulative. It's not NLP or neurolinguistic programming. It is a win-win-win play. We're taking them along. They win, the vendor won, I won, other people in the company win. So the more you can help people through what we do, but we must position our statements that we get them, as you said, in motion, in the Foxtrot, moving. And then they'll allow you to lead them because they're looking for that solution. They're looking to resolve some challenge or gain an opportunity or accomplish a goal. Those are the 3 reasons that people buy.

Yeah, I think, yeah, as Zig Ziglar said, you know, you'll get what you want by helping other people to get what they want. But what's also critical there, Doug, is that you've made sure that you put the company first because they're buying on behalf of the company, but also recognize that they have a personal stake in the decision. And ultimately they may be faced, especially in B2B with more than one vendor. In fact, by and large, they have to have more than one tender, don't they, to pass through compliance. And then they're choosing you because you've taken them for that spin on the dance floor. And you've, sounds like you have done a lot of work in advance when you talk about prospecting. It sounds like you did prospecting, but also researching both of what they needed and of your financial model. It sounds.

Yes. And the research is a critical component, Jim, because we have to know, we must know as the seller what's going to be the motivation, right? So, and it doesn't matter whether it's business or personal. Like, you know, if we took dating, for example, two people want to go out on a date. Well, you have a great first date. Why? You usually have common goals in that conversation that you're realizing like, oh, well, this person would like to maybe be married someday, and I want to get married someday. This person would like to have children, and I want to have children, or they don't want to have children, and I don't want to have children, whatever it might be. They want to travel, and I love to travel. And so we're lining up all these things. But imagine, and we call this the ideal right fit buyer, which is the second step in actually what we do. It's imagine being able to line up all of these things ahead of time so that you know these things ahead of time with high probability. So then the conversation is going in that direction. And now you just have to ask a few qualifying questions to find out if you should take the, the call or the conversation in that direction.

So Doug, you said that you've got a mathematical formula. I'd like to get onto that. But before you get there, could you just take us through the approach or maybe the tools you use for the research? Because, you know, when you and I started work, uh, you know, the risk for anyone that's not able to see, you know, Doug and I both been working since, I guess, late '80s, early '90s, right? And, uh, you know, in the old days, you actually had to get brochures from a trade show, right? Uh, in those days, or maybe look at a magazine. It's changed now. So what, what do you counsel to your clients at CEO Sales Strategies Doug, when it comes to the research for those encounter meetings?

Sure. And so the research can be very in-depth or it could be less in-depth. The point of reference is you just have to know enough, right? So for example, when I was in the telecommunications company, I read 3 telecommunications engineering books. That was enough for me to converse with the customer. That was enough for me to converse with the engineers at my company. Now, did I know what signaling, all the stuff that the engineers knew and all the terms? I knew a few of them by reading the book, but you don't have to. And this is what I want people to understand. You don't have to know everything. So when people do research, sometimes they'll research to ad nauseam and they're spending way too much time in the research. Now, the cool thing about research today is we have the internet. So, websites, LinkedIn, you know, Meta, Instagram, wherever they are, you can find information and they're usually putting things out. And so, that's easy. You also can do a Google search on their name. If you type Doug C. Brown revenue whatever, anything, I'll come up on the probably the top 7, 8 pages. And there's lots of things there that you can find out about me. And so you want to take all of these factors into consideration. And once you understand what those are, you can even use AI now to actually further and deepen your research. And you can take all these factors, put them into AI and say, okay, what could be their motivators? What could be their fear points? What could be this, right? And so, you'll come up with a list. And if you do this enough over an industry, you'll actually know what the top 5 motivators are, the top 5 fears, the top 5 wants, the top 5— So, when we're helping clients, this is what we do. And believe it or not, Jim, this is one of the biggest challenges that companies out there have.

Which, which is the biggest, uh, challenge, the research part?

No, they don't know their right fit buyers.

Oh, okay. Because it's interesting, because now I was going to say you've also got tools like Dun Bradstreet or Compass, right, as well, which create dedicated profiles of companies and revenue targets and things like churn. When I worked in telco, for example, with my PR agency in Singapore, we used to work with people at Inmarsat, for example, and it was about churn and packet data and price per, per packet and those sorts of Except I like you, Doug. We'll have a nice time talking tech after the podcast. You did talk about a mathematical formula, Doug C. Brown. So I would be remiss if having introduced you as someone who said you've got a formula to not press you on letting us see it. What's the formula? What's the formula? How do we do it?

So first thing, before you even get into a formula, what I want people to understand is you've got to know your goal. So the right fit goal, if you will. And what do I mean by that? What I mean by that is we absolutely have to know our true north of the goal. If we don't know the true north of the goal, then we'll create a fictitious plan to get there. So for example, let's say that somebody says, I want to double my business, but they truly don't want to double their business. Well, the metrics are going to show you how to double your business, and the work activity that comes along will be to double your business. But if you're just looking for, like, let's say, you know, a lot of companies would like, uh, 25% growth, right? If we could get 25% growth. So if we look at the metrics and we start to look at the categories of metrics, the first one is going to be How many outreaches are going out? So if you take outreaches and we increase the number of outreaches, but the, but the actual close ratio, the appointment ratio, everything stays the same, the more we increase that outreach, the higher that number will go. So if we had in theory a 25% increase in outreach, then we in theory should get 25% revenue growth out of that. But what's wonderful about the metrics is these metrics compound. They stack on one another. So when we look out at the outreach, then what we want to look at is the connection rate. How many people are we actually connecting? Because if our connection rate is low, Jim, we can improve that connection rate. So we can then maybe not— we don't need to maybe go out to more people. We just need to improve the connection rate. So then what's the positive response rate from that connection? So what's a connection rate, by the way? A connection rate is they actually saw or they actually conversed, right? So if you think direct mail, it usually has a very high connection rate because if you get a postcard in the mail, you pick it up and you look at it. That's a connection. Yeah. But if you're sending an email, you might get a 20%, 30%, right? So it's, it's one of these things that we improve the connection. So first is the reach out, second is connection. The third is the positive responses. The more positive responses we can get, the higher the next ratio will be— your appointments. So as we're bringing it down through this mathematical model, please understand, folks, that this actually creates compounding interest. It's that, that effect. So once you measure out the appointments, the next question is, okay, how many closes are we getting out of the appointments? Now there could be sub-ratios, like how many appointments are we actually keeping, right? We could get, like, I just had a client that had, they went out and did 110 appointments and they only had 6 people show up for the appointments. And they were like, "What's wrong?" I'm like, "You're not talking to the right buyer. I can tell you that right now." Yeah, that's right. So, then once we straightened it out, they talked to 10 people, they got 6 appointments, right? So, that's pretty, you know, swift change, right? And in a positive direction.

Absolutely, yeah.

So after you measure the appointments to the closes, the next ratio is the follow-up closes. This is where people drop the ball a lot of times. They sometimes think that people aren't interested and so they don't follow up with them or they get overwhelmed and they don't follow up with them, you know, 'cause they just forget, right? So there's always a percentage of follow-up closes that happen. So then in that process, what's the increase in transactional value? And what's the increase in the repeated buyers that we can get going on? Now, if you just take those ratios only and you start doing these mathematically, you can pinpoint the revenue that you will get by doing the activity increase of those ratios.

Right. I guess you say then it really is a formula. And presumably there are also some ways that you can look at the kind of numbers that you're getting, whether, for example, the close rate is low, whether, as you say, you've got a foxtrot or maybe you're You're trying to do a rave instead of a foxtrot, right? You haven't necessarily got the right kind of moves in the room, or you can increase the order value, right, by changing the offer as well. So then you can start to finesse that, can't you, as well?

Exactly. And then the second step is dialing in that right fit buyer because all the mathematics, all the metrics work so much more effectively I had a friend, Dave. Dave, if you're listening to this, I'm sorry, but Dave Anderson. Dave came to me one day and he said, Jim, he goes, he's trying to find a perfect girl for himself. Right? And he's like—

This is a different show. We'll create a different show for this episode.

I want to demonstrate the right fit bias.

This is the Tinder episode of The Unnoticed Entrepreneur.

Well, Dave's one of the nicest guys on the planet, right? Dave is just a lovely guy. He's a good-looking man. He's got a lot to offer people. And he comes to me one day and he says, Doug, there are no good women in the United States left.

I said, okay.

And I said, wait a minute, it's like 330 million people, let's say in your age bracket. There's got to be tens of millions of women that are actually here. Not one of them is any good, right? He goes, well, I don't really mean it that way. He goes, I just can't find one. I said, well, tell me what you're looking for. And he said, well, he gave me these criteria, but the first 3 were, I want a churchgoing woman who goes to church every week. She's got to have a master's degree. She wants to work and be independent on her own. And she loves to dance. And he gave me a couple others. And I said, well, tell me where you're looking for these women. He goes, well, I'm going down to McKinsey's bar. And I'm going down here and I'm like, like, Dave, what kind of churchgoing woman with a master's degree, you know, who is hanging out at a bar on a regular basis, right? With the criteria you said. And he said, geez, I never thought about that. And I said, well, what are you saying to her? And he gave me the line. I'm like, that's not going to work. You're like, you know, so I said to him, I said, Dave, we live around universities. And many of them have religious backgrounds, Holy Cross, all this. Why don't you go to a Holy Cross mixer for people who have advanced degrees? And it's a dance, right? So go there and, you know, and change your line, right? Change your line to this, right? Because we did a little research, Jim, and we found out what these ladies would like to hear as an opening line, right? And they're not looking to, you know, have the cheesy line that most guys have. They're just looking to get to know somebody. And so he goes to this mixer and 4 years later he's still with the same lady and gets married. Right. And so it's like that's how quickly dialing this in can change the trajectory of your life or your sales in this case, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

So once we get through that, then the next step is prospecting. And we're wrapping 6 new ways around this prospecting with the ideal client, measuring the metrics. The next step from there is creating the conversational conversion. Because if your messaging is off, no matter how good you dial it in, if your messaging is off, you know, like he was walking up to gals at the bar and going, hey, I find you beautiful. I think you probably find me beautiful. You know, what do you think? Do you find me beautiful? You know, that type of line. And I'm like, oh my gosh, no.

This is probably not gonna work.

Right.

So, yeah. So I think Doug, you've highlighted the importance of really knowing your ideal customer, but also knowing what you are looking for as a business. Yeah. And that you do need to keep track of both of those. And Doug's actually got a resource that he's gonna share in a couple of minutes because we've managed to get a lot of Doug's time. Doug, as you move to the end of this interview, because today you've already given us a huge amount of value and you've demonstrated that it is possible to have metrics that you do need to have, like, a dance that you understand that you're going to be going for, and also who your dance partner would be and what kind of dance it is that you'd be looking to do on the floor. Doug, if there's a number one tip that you would give an entrepreneur when it comes to trying to find predictable sales, what would it be?

Well, firstly, get very clear about what you want. Because I have worked with so many entrepreneurs, companies, and they think they have a goal, but it's not the true goal. And so, you know, Jim, you and I were talking earlier, and I spent 8 years in university never getting a degree, right? But I had enough credits to get a master's degree at that point because I was just taking a course and a course. And what was my goal? I had no outcome. Really, I just wanted to be in the university system because that's what we were supposed to do, get an education. But I had no clear outcome until my brother said to me, "Doug, it's nice you're going to school like this, but in the United States, we pay for school, college. So, what are you going to do with this? Now, you've got $20,000 worth of loans back then in the '80s, right?" And I said, Jeez, I probably should get a degree and do something with this. So I decided on a degree, and it took me about 7 months to get the degree. But the point being is I had a clear goal at that point. And so I knew what classes to take to accomplish that goal. If one doesn't have a clear goal in life, they'll float. If one doesn't have a clear goal in business, they'll start doing things and investing money in places they don't need to. Or not investing money in places they need to, hiring people they don't need to, or not hiring people that they do need to. So that's the first step. So I would, you know, hey, we're in the beginning of 2025. A lot of people think New Year's resolution. I would ask them, get a very clear goal and be truthful about that goal. It's okay if you're not making $50 million, if that's truly not what you want to do. I have a lot of friends that are very happy at making just a very moderate amount of money in life, but man, they're happier than people I know that are billionaires. So that's kind of the key.

Okay. Well, that's wonderful. So identify the goal because both for you as the entrepreneur and the company, in my experience, is they're inextricably linked actually, aren't they, Doug? Yes. Doug, what about a podcast or a book that you found inspirational that you would then share with me and my fellow unnoticed?

A shameless plug other than my book or other than my podcast.

You will share your own as well. Absolutely. Why not? Doug has got his own book and we'll put a link to that in the show notes too.

Yeah, I, I wrote a book, uh, called Win-Win Selling: Unlocking the Power of Profitability by Resolving Objections. Um, it's all on around objections, Jim, um, but it really goes in the psychology and the philosophy of communication. And this is what some people— I'm going to just hold the book up just to plug it. But no, here we go.

Here they go. Win-Win Selling by Doug C. Brown.

Lovely. The reason I wrote this book was people were always asking me, how do you handle these conversations? Because I couldn't figure it out. And I'm like, you're trying to sell something versus trying to help somebody win-win.. And so why don't I write a book about it? And I did, and it's done quite well, and I'm very happy and proud of the book. So that, and I have a podcast called the CEO Sales Strategies Podcast, which we talk about with entrepreneurs on things like we're talking about, Jim, how to resolve problems, what did they go through, what did they not go through, et cetera.

Wonderful. So we'll put links to both of Doug's assets in the show notes. And Doug, you've kindly got an offer, a resource for my fellow unnoticed entrepreneurs. What is that? And I will put a link to that in the show notes as well. What have you got to help us all get predictable sales?

Yeah, so it's really a marketing and sales— we call it internally here, we call it the marketing sales checklist. Uh, externally we give it a better marketing name, but the, the reality is if you go to www.ceosalesstrategies.com/checklist It is a series of questions that people can actually figure out where the holes are in their marketing and their sales. It's our most popular thing that people like to do. And because it gives them that revelation of, oh, okay, I'm doing great here, but I could do a little better there. Right? So, yeah.

So, If you go to the sales and marketing audit checklist, yep, right there. Right, and we'll put that in the show notes. I've also shared that with the screen sharing for anyone that wants to see this on YouTube. Doug, thank you so much. If people want to get hold of you, how can they do that?

Well, they could send me an email directly at doug@ceosalesstrategies.com. I usually answer my email by myself, Jim, but sometimes, you know, a couple people monitor my email, so they might respond first. Or they can, you know, Doug Brown 123 at, you know, LinkedIn is the other best place to get me.

Okay. You like the sales 123. You make it sound all logical. Doug C. Brown joining me from Nashua in New Hampshire. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Jim, thank you for having me. You've been a gracious host and I appreciate your interview style very much.

Well, thank you very much. And well, Doug and I had a foxtrot. We had our very own dance. So wonderful. And I changed the format a little bit. For this episode where we can really deep dive into a specific problem rather than go through an entrepreneurial journey, because I think this is going to be a, a way that we can get more results for those of you listening that you can apply directly into your business. So thank you for joining me on this episode of The Unnoticed Entrepreneur. If you've enjoyed it, do please leave a review or share it with a fellow unnoticed entrepreneur, because you know we don't want to leave anyone unnoticed. Until we meet again, I just encourage you to keep on communicating.