Calm Conversations: Dan Levy and Mel Mah "Good Grief"

Hi, Dan.

Hi.

Thanks so much for joining me in conversation. Very slowly, calmly, just to set the vibe. Right. Exactly. I'm so appreciative of your time and to be here talking about this movie.

I couldn't be more thrilled to be talking to you. I use the app every single night of my life. That's how I fall asleep.

Yeah. I mean, your film Good Grief is so moving and speaks to so many important mental health themes and really what we do at calm, which is just trying to bring more awareness overall to mental health. Right. And so just off the bat, I'm curious what inspired you to tell this story, especially to speak on grief, which is so complicated.

It's so complicated. Well, I guess I was experiencing it and realizing kind of, I haven't had a lot of grief loss in my life. And so I was reconciling what it all meant. And I think sometimes, and I've come to realize that this is a common question that people ask themselves in times of grief, is, am I doing it properly? Am I doing enough? Am I honoring the person enough by way of some kind of physical reaction or something? And that felt like a really interesting conversation to have in a film. And I wanted the movie to be about friendship. So I was, you know, thinking about what if. What would. What would the story look like if it was about how friends came together in a time of great tragedy and helped each other and used the grief to kind of crack open their own lives and ask themselves, what does it all mean? And what do we mean to each other and do we need to do some work on ourselves? And all of those things that I think happen after a loss. So, yeah, it just started with a question. And I think for me, I'm a writer, so when I can't speak, I write. And when I don't know what to say, I write. And this is kind of the answer to a lot of the questions that I was having in my head that I just couldn't physically articulate, like, with my voice.

What did you discover about grief through the writing? Like, did something surprise you as you were writing the script of. Oh, this is maybe the answer that I was looking for in coping with my own grief.

I guess it's just that there's comfort in it and there can be comfort in it. And I think everyone grieves in a different way, and it's such a sensitive topic for so many people. But I guess what I was trying to show is that, you know, at least for my character, for Mark, it's. He Starts off by feeling so isolated and conflicted about who he is and what he want, you know, what he wants to share with his friends and what he doesn't. The idea that we're a burden to our friends, I think is something that a lot of us feel. But ultimately, the truth will set you free. As cliche as it sounds. And getting to this point where these friendships are forced to kind of have tough conversations in order to invest in the future of who they are for each other, I don't know. It was just. It was a very lush territory to explore. But the comfort of grief, knowing that everyone is grieving something in some capacity. And we go through life, and I think we think a lot about ourselves or the immediacy of our situation, our loved ones. But it's not until you kind of ask someone the question, or in the case of the film, like Mark goes through the journey realizing character by character that everyone he encounters is grieving something. And it might not be. Might not make you feel happy, but it'll make you feel comfort. And I think in times where we don't have happiness, comfort is the next best thing.

Right. Well, I think so much for me, in the past, group grief is. Well, for all of us, it's associated with losing something. Right. But we also don't think if we're losing something, we're also gaining something else as well. Right. Or maybe gaining deeper relationships, a deeper truth, or just more fullness in life because we're now experiencing such a wider range of emotions. Right. And I mean, I feel like Mark in the film goes through that because he, at the beginning, starts as someone who doesn't want to really reveal all those truths. Right. He's almost afraid to open up to the fullness of life. I love this one line that you wrote. To avoid sadness is to also avoid love. Can you speak to that a little bit? And how that ties into grief and just experiencing the fullness of life through grief.

Yeah, I mean, you know, I think in the process of writing the movie, there were so many revelations that just kind of happened, you know, And I think you hope for those moments as a writer, you hope for those moments of, like, clarity. And that was a line that really just. I was writing the scene, and it just came. It almost felt earned because I was so close to these characters that by the end, you know, you struggle to figure out, okay, what's gonna be the big message and what's gonna be the big takeaway. And that line just. Just kind of happened. And I think it really summarizes the whole movie, which is that the farther you run away from feeling something, the farther you run away from the feeling of love. Because to have lost someone and to have to feel sadness about that person is also an expression of love. It's an expression of how much they meant to you. And, of course, you know, Celia Imrie delivering that line with just the most, like, subtly beautiful, heartbreaking.

Oh, my gosh.

Yeah. There are moments. There were a few moments in the movie where I felt like certain lines happened, and I was just grateful that they came into my head, you know? Yeah.

Can you think of another line that came into your head that you're like.

Oh, gosh, there's so many. I mean, Thomas line about, you know, it's never me, I think was something that I've experienced in my own life asking that question. I think the, you know, Ruth's character on the Ferris wheel talks about the fact that sometimes we feel things that are inconvenient.

Yeah.

And that's okay. That kind of honesty amongst friends, I think is something that I don't see a lot in movies. And it was really special to be able to write these scenes and write this dialogue for friendships and not have it be on the sidelines to, like, a romantic focus.

Right.

You know, I think so. For me, my friendships mean the most to me, and I've been single for a while. So when you're not. When you. When you're not partnered, your friendships are your closest loves of your life outside of your family. And it was just a really special experience to write a movie where friendship was given the space and the time and the mess to kind of be celebrated in all of its beauty and in all of its conflict.

Well, what I saw from the movie is that those friendships and those relationships deepened because you guys went through that together. Right. So it's weird how we typically want to avoid those emotions, but really we're just preventing ourselves from having fuller relationships and from developing that intimacy.

Of course. I think honesty is the hardest thing for people. In fact, we talk about it in the movie walking down the street with the character of Theo. And I'm talking about how honesty just doesn't spill out of a lot of people. And he says, well, it should. And I believe that. You know, I think it's the hardest thing that people can do. There's so many. So many friends of mine fear conflict to the point where it actually cripples the friendship a little bit. Because when you're holding something inside or if you feel like Someone is not there for you in a way that you want them to be, or if they've said something or done something that. That doesn't feel right. If you don't have the ability to be honest about that, then you just end up calcifying that feeling of resentment or anger. And that's such a toxic thing. So honesty, I think, is the greatest path forward through friendship because it leaves no stone unturned. And sometimes it's uncomfortable. Yes, but it's a long term investment in your life.

Right. It's like short term discomfort to prevent the long term discomfort. Because that word you said, calcify, has such a visual effect to it. You're like taking the emotion, you're stuffing it down, and now it just solidifies.

I think about it like doctor's appointments, you know, I'll see it on the calendar and I'll be like, oof. I'll think of any excuse to not go. And then you go. And they're like, yep, you're great. And I'm like, oh, I feel excellent. I feel way better than when I came in here. You need. Sometimes you need to do the hard stuff in order to feel really good.

Yeah. I think it's Pema Chodron. Do you know Pema Chodron? She's an amazing Buddhist monk.

I know the. I know of. Yeah.

Incredible books and incredible teachings and writings. And she says that an emotion should actually only take about 60 seconds to pass through the body when we are fully feeling it, processing it, and then releasing it. Right. But the problem is that we don't want to be honest with it. Right. So we push it down and it calcifies and then it turns into this whole other subconscious issue that it wasn't before. Right.

Oh, I need to work on that. Yeah.

Don't we all?

I need to work on that a lot. Yes.

Well, I'm curious for you. You say you're a user of the Calm app. How has mindfulness or just being more aware of your emotions and your mental health really helped you in processing some of these more difficult times and experiences?

I think being honest about the fact that you're working through it is the best part. I think I'm always kind of like in a state of active curiosity and active, like self examination. I think that's the beautiful thing about getting to write is you put yourself into all the different characters and by way of their dynamics. You're kind of like it's a form of catharsis. It's a form of self examination. And, you know, And a form of kind of therapy in a way, getting to know yourself, getting to ask yourself questions by way of the characters that you might never ask yourself when you're not writing. I think it's so important to just, I don't know, chasing honesty, I think is the big takeaway.

Yeah. When you give me that example of writing, it's you becoming this empty vessel. Right. To experience and empathize with this character. Not from your point of view, but from their point of view. Right, of course. Which really is mindfulness. This ability to kind of be the active witness and not be so consumed by self, by ego. Right. You have to detach from that to see, okay, who is this person? How are they feeling? How are they affected by their emotions? And we see that in ourselves too. We look at ourselves almost like a separate person. And that's really helpful in us understanding and processing emotions.

And to add to that, a writer, you grow so attached to your characters that it's really hard to have them fail. It's really hard to have them show flaws. And yet that's where the greatest, you know, that's where the, like, marrow of the situation is. It's in the flaws of your characters. And so to make those active choices and say, okay, I'm going to have this person fail or I'm gonna have a huge hiccup in this person's life that they brought on themselves, it's in a way of kind of bringing it back to yourself. It's the acceptance of saying, like, I will never be perfect. I have to let certain things happen.

Right.

In order to move forward. Because otherwise you just get. In my case, I'm fair. I'm a perfectionist and I have very high standards for myself and I can be incredibly self critical and cruel at times. Um, it's an active thing for me to like, choose to be kind to myself and not come down as hard as I can be. And I'm still working on it.

I'm so glad you shared that because I feel like almost everyone has that experience. Right. Where we are our own worst critic and we can't see the good things that other people see. Right. And I think it's because we're the ones that spend the most time in our heads.

Right.

Right. So we're constantly listening to that inner critic.

Yeah. And like, we think we know the truth.

Yeah.

But I don't think we do at times. You know, I think it's almost you fortify any actual truth by giving yourself a narrative in advance. If that makes Sense.

Yeah, absolutely.

And so, you know, for me, putting a movie out, it's been. Emotionally, it's been a really hard thing because I'm so critical of myself and I expect the worst, and I need to change that. But that's life. That's sort of. It's the blessing and the curse. Because if I didn't have it granted, it's not to say you don't have to work on it, but it allows for certain truths to come out in the characters, too. So you think about who you are as a person. And we always should be in an active state of trying to change ourselves. But I guess I try to harness some of that in a constructive way to, like, tell stories about characters that feel real and, you know, just trying our best. But putting a movie out into the world is incredibly vulnerable and very bizarre.

Especially one that you wrote, directed and started.

Yeah, I'm all over it. Yeah. You know, and I love the process of making it. But it's the putting it out into the world that's the scary part.

Yes. I mean, that's also a mindfulness practice of just surrendering and just letting go. Right. Because at this point, your work is done and you just release it out.

Right. And other people's thoughts are not mine, exactly.

It reminded me when you were talking about just needing to be kinder to yourself. It reminded me of this moment in the film where Marcus is talking about the mind being like a muscle, you know, and how you have to train it in a certain way when you lose somebody because your mind still thinks that this person is there. How does that apply to your own life, too? Like, how are you training your mind? Maybe with that perfectionist.

I can't remember where I read that kind of, like, analogy or analysis, but it's always stuck with me. It stuck with me through breakups. Because I think at the time that was what I read was applying to heartbreak. That our brains kind of get trained to live in the groove of heartbreak. And if we don't take the active steps to train our brains out of that heartbreak, we can live very easily in that place because it's where we've come to imprint. Like, it's where the groove is. It's where we're most comfortable. But if you think of it like a muscle, if you think about training your brain out of the habits that we have to feel pity or to feel heartbreak, not that that's a bad thing to feel. I think we should always kind of acknowledge our feelings as wholly as we possibly can. But with something like heartbreak, there does come a point where it stops serving you, you know?

Yeah. I once had a teacher say, it's about, you know, feeling those things but also being able to put them in a container because you can't let those emotions rule your life either. Right?

Yeah.

Yeah. So it's having that mindfulness to say, okay, I can feel this fully right now, but then I can also put it away in a container and save it for another time too. Right.

There should come a point where I should try to not feel this way.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, watching Mark's growth throughout the whole film is so beautiful and moving. And I think something that many people will resonate with just this idea of going from someone who's afraid to share the truth to someone who sees the value in it. Right.

Yeah.

And was that something that you easily felt like you could connect to just as the actor is, like, immersing yourself into that character?

Yeah. I mean, I am not an. Really an avoidant person. So to write one and to put myself into the shoes of one was. Was really enlightening. And I think so many people are. Well, I avoid in certain areas. I think all of us do. But, you know, running from problems that they'll eventually catch up from you running. Catch up to you, running from sadness, running from, you know, grief or heartbreak or whatever. I mean, you have to live in it at some point, at least. That was the big takeaway for me in writing this character, was he was so scared of feeling sadness and feeling loss. His mother died. He went straight into a relationship. It happens all the time. It happens to so many of us. And yet when do we give ourselves the moments to actually feel the things we need to? And I think it can hinder relationships. I know so many people that go from relationship to relationship to relationship, and that's absolutely fine. But there has to come a point where you know who you are independent of someone else, too. What is that like? So in the case of this film, it was about exploring when a death happens, when you didn't make the active choice, but the choice just happened to you. What. What becomes of it? And I think he had that inclination to fall back into the habit of, like, distracting himself. And yet the circumstance of it all kind of forced him into a level of truth that I don't think he was expecting. And I think that rippled into the friendships, too. I think they would never have had these conversations as friends and strengthened their friendship ultimately had it all not happened. So, yeah, I think that's the play on the good grief. That's the goodness and the grief.

Yeah. It reminds me of the saying that everything that happens to you is actually happening for you in a way. Right. And how we can really see everything as cliche as it sounds, everything does happen for a reason. There's a reason this person leaves and why this person comes in or why we get into a conflict with one person and then experience this fullness and this love with another. Right. Yeah. I guess speaking a little bit to that, how do you feel like that resonates in the story, how everything was really aligned and as it should be?

Yeah. I mean, I think it's a tricky thing, the idea of everything happening for a reason. Because I think so much of us, so many of us don't want to hear that. Of course. You know, I think it's very easy to say like that. Yeah. And yet it is. That's life, ultimately. Is things happening for you, and how you navigate that is your choice. Yeah. I mean, I think I always. Aside from the friendships, I always saw this as like a little prince journey for the character of Mark in that he's exploring his life after his husband and everyone he meets, whether it's a performance artist at an art party that he thinks one thing of, and then later you find out, oh, their parents have kind of cushioned this whole life for them, and they know that they're not very good. The sadness of that. There's grief in that. There's grief in even the character of Theo saying he's at his job and he doesn't want to be there, but he stays for the money. That kind of vulnerability to Thomas, who's lost someone, to Sophie, who quite literally needs to change really bad habits in her life and accept goodness and accept love in ways that she deserves. I guess it's like, for me, by the end of the movie, every character that we meet has shared a kind of grief with the character of Mark that ultimately gets him to a point where he feels secure enough to accept his husband and to. If not. If not. I'm searching for the word he can't. If not forgive, then at least have closure with his behavior. And that takes strength, too.

Yeah. I think what, you know, that takeaway is that we have to lean on people and lean on our communities and our friendships and people to get through something like grief, because that's how we can really process it, and that's how we can move forward.

Right.

Well, thank you so much, Dan. This is such an enlightening conversation.

Oh, my goodness. Likewise.

Yeah. I mean, the film is so beautiful. So congratulations. Truly profound and moving work.

Thank you.

And don't forget to check out Good Grief streaming on Netflix. Please Check it out is such a great film.