Jordan Jonas: Survival, Hunting, Siberia, God, and Winning Alone Season 6 | Lex Fridman Podcast #437

The following is a conversation with Jordan Jonas, winner of Alone Season 6, a show where the task is to survive alone in the Arctic wilderness longer than anyone else. He is widely considered to be one of, if not the greatest competitors on that show. He has a fascinating life story that took him from a farm in Idaho and hoboing on trains across America to traveling with nomadic tribes in Siberia. All that helped make him into a world class explorer, survivor, hunter, wilderness guide, and most importantly, a great human being with a big heart and a big smile. This was a truly fun and fascinating conversation. Let me also mention that at the end, after the episode I'll start answering some questions and will try to articulate my thinking on some top of mind topics. So if that's of interest to you, keep listening after the episode is over. This is the Lex Friedman podcast to support it. Please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Jordan Jonas.

You won Alone season six and I think are still considered to be one of, if not the most successful Survivor on that show. So let's go back, let's look at the big picture. Can you tell me about the show Alone? How does it work?

Yeah, it's a show where they take 10 individuals and each person gets 10 items off of the list. You know, basic items would be an ax, a saw, a frying pan, you know, some pretty basic stuff. And then they send them all, drop them off all in the woods with a few cameras and so the people are actually alone, there's not a crew or anything. And then you basically live there as long as you can, you know, and so the person that lasts the longest, you know, once the second place person taps out, they come and get you and that, and that individual wins. So it's a, it's a pretty legit challenge. You know, they, they drop you off, helicopter flies out, and you're not going to get your next meal until you make it happen.

So you have to figure out the shelter, you have to figure out the source of food, and then it gets colder and colder because I guess they drop you out in a moment where it's going into the winter.

Yeah, they typically do it in temperate, colder climates, things like that. And they start in September, October, so time's ticking when they drop you off and yeah, the pressure's on. You got, it's, you know, you get overwhelmed with all the things you have to do right away, like, oh man, I'm not going to eat again until I actually shoot or catch something. Got to build a shelter. It's pretty overwhelming. Figure your whole location out. But it's interesting because once you're there a little while, you kind of get into a. At least for me, I did. There was like a week, or maybe not a week, but that I was kind of a little more annoyed with things. You know, it's like, oh, my sight sucks. And then you kind of accept it. You know, what it is, what it is. No code, no amount of complaining is going to do anybody any good. So I'm just going to make it happen. And so then. Or, you know, do my best to. And then I felt like I got in a zone, and I felt like I was right back in kind of Siberia or in that headspace. And I. I found I actually really enjoyed it. I had been a little bit out of. I guess you call it the game, because I had had child and. And so when we had our daughter, we came back to the States, and then a bunch of things happened, and I just ended up. We didn't end up going back to Russia. So it'd been a couple years that I was just, you know, we were raising the little girl and boy then. And then.

So you've gotten a little soft.

So I was like, did I got a little soft? But then it was fun how? Like after just some days there, I was like, oh, man, I feel like. I feel like I'm at home now. And then it was like, you're kind of in that flow state. And it was actually.

There's a few moments, like when you left the ladder up or with the moose that you kind of screwed up a little bit.

Oh, yeah.

How do you go from that moment of frustration to the moment of acceptance?

I mean, the more you put yourself in life, in positions that are kind of outside your comfort zone or push your abilities, the more often you're going to screw up, and then the more opportunity you have to learn from that. And then, to be honest, it's kind of funny, but you almost get to a position where you don't feel that uncomfortable. It's not unexpected. You know, you kind of expect you're gonna mess up here and there. You know, I remember particularly with the. The moose. The first moose I saw, I had a great shot at it, but I had a hard time judging distance because it was in a mud flat, which means it's hard to. It's hard to tell yardage, you know, because you usually typically go and buy trees or markers. Be like, oh, I'm probably 30 yards away. This is a giant moose. And he was 40 something yards away. And I estimated that he was 30 something yards away. So I was way off and shot and dropped between his legs. And then I realized I had not grabbed my quiver. So I only had one shot and I just watched him turn around and walk off. But I was struck initially with like. I actually noticed how unmad I was. I was like, oh, this is actually. I was like, that was awesome. That was like seeing a dinosaur. That was really cool. And then I was like, oh, what an idiot. How to miss. But then I was like, but it made me that much more determined to make it happen again. It was like, okay, nobody's gonna make this happen except myself. You can't. Can't complain. It wouldn't have done me any good to go back and mope about it. And so then I was like, I had a thought. I was like, oh, I remember these na. The native guys telling me they used to like build these giant fences and funnel game into certain areas and stuff. And I was like, man, that's a lot of calories, but I have to make that happen again now. So I kind of went out there and tried that. And that was kind of a attempt at something too. It could have failed or not worked, but sure enough, it worked. And the opportunity came again. The moose came wandering along and was able to get it. But being able to take failure as soon as you can, the better accept it and then learn from it is kind of a muscle you have to exercise a little bit.

Well, it's interesting because in this case, the cost of failure is like, you're not going to be able to eat.

Yeah, that was really interesting. I mean, the most interesting thing about that show was how high the stakes felt because it didn't feel, you know, you didn't tell yourself you're on a show, at least I didn't. You just felt like it was, you're going to starve to death if you don't make this happen. And so the stakes felt so high. And it was an interesting thing to tap into because, I mean, so many of our ancestors probably all just dealt with that on a regular basis. But it's something that we're. All the modern amenities and such and food security that we don't deal with. And it was interesting to tap into what a kind of a peak mental experience that is when you really, really need something to survive and then it happens. You can't imagine. I mean, that's what all our dopamine and the receptors are tuned for, that experience in particular. So it was yeah, it was pretty awesome. But the pressure felt very on. Like I always felt the pressure of, of providing or starving.

And then there's a situation when you left the ladder up, right? You needed fat. And what is it? The wolverine ate some of the fat, right?

Yeah. Well, it was when I got the moose, I was so happy, the most joy I could almost expect experience. Max maxed out. But I didn't think, I. I didn't think I won at that point. I never thought, like, oh, that's my ticket to victory. I thought, holy crap, it's going to be me against somebody else that gets a moose now. And we're going to be here six, eight months, who knows how long? And so I can't. I can't be here six, eight months and still lose. So I've got to, like, I've got to out produce somebody else with a moose. So I had all that in my head. Not already was, of course, pretty thin. And. And so I was just like, man, somebody else gets a moose, I'm still going to be behind. And so everything felt like precious to me. And I had found a plastic jug, and I put a whole bunch of the moose's fat in this plastic jug and set it up on a little shelf. I thought, you know, what if a bear comes, I'll probably hear it and I'll come out and be able to shoot it. So I went to sleep, and I woke up the next morning, I went out and I was like, where's that jug? And then I was like, wait a second, what are all these prints? And then I started looking around, and it took a second to dawn on me because I haven't interacted with wolverines very often in life. And. And I was like, oh, those are wolverine tracks. And he was just so much sneakier than bear would have been or something. So it kind of surprised me. And he took off with that jug of fat. And so then I went from feeling pretty good about myself to, like, now I'm losing again against whoever, you know, this other person is with a moose. So I, I again, kind of the pressure came back to, oh, no, I gotta produce again. You know, it wasn't the end of the world. And I think they may have exaggerated a little bit how little fat I had left. You know, I still had a moose has a lot of fat. But it did make me feel like I was at a disadvantage again. And so, yeah, that was pretty. That was pretty intense because those wolverines, they're bold little animals and they. And he was basically saying, no, this is my moose. And I had to counter his claims.

Well, yeah, they're really, really smart. They figure out a way to get to places really effectively. Wolverines are, like, fascinating in that way. So let's go to that happy moment. The moose. You are the first and one of the only contestants to have ever killed a moose on the show. A big game animal with a bow and arrow. So this is day 20. So can you take me through the kill?

Yeah. So I'd missed one, and I just decided, I'm not here to starve. I'm here to, like, try to become sustainable. So I was like, I don't care if it's a risk. I'm gonna build. That fence I built would just pick berries and call moose every. You know, every day. And it was actually really pleasant. Just sit in a berry patch and call moose. But then I would also had this whole trap and snare lines set out everywhere. So I had all these. I was getting rabbits, but I was actually taking a rabbit out of a snare when I heard a clank, because I had set up kind of an alarm system with string and cans.

So it's a brilliant idea.

Yeah. Another thing that could have not worked, but it worked, and it came through. And I was like, oh. I heard the cans clink, and I was like, no way. And so I ran over. I didn't know what it was exactly, but something was coming along the fence. And I ran over and jumped in the bush next to the funnel exit on the fence. And sure enough, the big moose came running up. And, you know, your heart gets pounding like crazy. You're just like, no way. No way. I probably could have waited a little longer and had a perfect broadside shot, but. But I took the shot when he was. He was. He was pretty close, like, 24 yards, but he was quartering towards me, which makes it a little harder to make a. A perfect kill shot, you know, Hence, I hit it and it took off running. And I just thought, you know, I was super excited. I couldn't believe I actually, you know, I was like, oh, my gosh. Got the moose. I think that was a really good shot. You get all excited, but then it plays back in your head. And particularly when you're first learning to hunt, there's always an animal that gets away and you make a bad decision or not a great shot or something, and it's just part of it. And so of course, you're like, I'm not going to be satisfied until I see this thing. So I followed the blood trail a little while. And I saw some bubbly blood, which meant it was hitting the lungs, which meant it's not going to live. You'll get it. And so as long as you don't mess it up. And so I went back to my shelter and waited an hour. I skinned that rabbit that had caught and then super nervous, the slowest hour ever. And then I followed it along, ended up losing the blood trail. I was like, no, no. And then I was like, well, if there's no blood, I'm just going to follow the path that I would go if I was a moose, you know, like the least resistance through the woods. So I followed kind of along the shore there. And sure enough, I saw him up there. I was like, oh, you know, I was so excited. Lay down. But he hadn't died yet. And so he just sat there and he would stand up and I would just like, no, no, no, no. And he would lay back down. And you're like, yes. And then he would stand up. And it was like that for a couple hours it took him. And then finally at one point, and a lot of people have asked, like, why wouldn't you go finish it off? So when an animal like that gets hit, it had no idea what hit it. You know, just all of a sudden it's like, ah, something got it and it ran off. And it lays down and it's actually fairly calm and it doesn't really know what's going on. And if you can leave it in that state, it'll kind of just bleed out. And as peacefully as possible, if you go chase after it, that's when you lose an animal. Because as soon as it knows it's being hunted, you know, it gets panicked adrenaline, and it can just run and run and run and you'll never find it. So I didn't want it to see me. I knew if I tried to get it with another arrow, there's a chance I could have finished it off. But there's also a not bad chance that it would see me take off or even attack, because moose can be a little dangerous. And so I just chose to wait it out. And at one point, it stood up and fell over, and I could tell it had died and walked over. Like, you actually touch it and you're just like, whoa, no way. Like that whole burden of weeks of, you're gonna starve, you're gonna starve. And it got rid of that demon. To be honest, it's one of the happiest moments of my life. It's really hard to replicate that joy because it was just so, so real. You're so directly connected to your needs. It's all so simple. It was a peak experience for sure.

And were you worried that it would take many more hours than it would take it into the night?

Yeah, I was. I mean, until you actually have your hands on it, I was worried the whole time. It's a pretty nerve wracking period there between when you get it and when you actually recover the animal, get your hands on it. So it took longer than I wanted, but I finally got it.

Can you actually speak to the, the kill shot itself just for people who don't hunt? Yeah, that's what it takes to stay calm, to, to, to not freak out too much, to like wait, but not wait too long.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, another thing about hunting is that for every animal you get, you probably don't get, you know, nine or ten, that, that this turned the wrong way when you were drawn back or went way behind a tree or you never had a clean shot or whatever it is. And so every time you can see a moment coming, your heart really starts beating and you have to breathe through it. You almost feel the nervousness of it. And then you just try to stay calm. Whatever you do, just try to stay calm. Wait for it to come up, draw back. You've practiced shooting a lot. So you have like kind of a technique like I'm going to go back, touch my face, draw my elbow tight, and then the arrow is going to let loose.

It's a muscle memory.

Most, it's kind of muscle memory. You have a little trigger, like draw that elbow tight and then, and then, then it happens. And then you just watch the arrow and see where it goes. Now with the animal, you know, you try to do it ethically, that is like make as good of a shot as you can. Make sure it is either hit in the heart or both lungs. And when that happens, it's a pretty quick death, which is death is a part of life. But honestly, for a wild animal, that's probably the best way to go. They could have. Now, when an animal's kind of walking towards you, if it's walking towards you, but not directly towards you, that's what you call quartering towards you. You can picture it's actually pretty difficult to hit both lungs because the shoulder blade and all that bone is in the way. So you want to, so you have to make a perfect shot to get them both. And to be honest, when I took my shot, I was a couple Inches or a few inches. Right. And so it went, went through the first lung and then it sunk the arrow all the way into the moose. But it didn't. It allowed that second lung to stay breathing, which, which meant the moose stayed alive longer.

What's your relationship with the animal in a situation like that? You said death is a part of us.

Yeah, that's an interesting thought. Because no matter what your relationship to, however you choose to go through life, whether, you know, whatever you eat, whatever you do, death is a part of life. You know, like every animal that's out there is living off of a dead, even plants, you know, it's all, it's all. We're all part of this ecosystem. I think it's really easy in a, particularly in an urban environment, but anywhere to think that we're separate from the ecosystem, but we are very much a part of it. Whether it be. Farming requires all this habitat to be turned into growing soybeans and da, da, da. And when you get the plows and the combines, you're losing all kinds of different animals and all kind of potential habitat. So it's not cost free. And so when you realize that, then you want to produce the food and the things you need in an ethical manner. So I. So for me, hunting plays a really major role in that. I literally know how many animals a year it takes to feed my family and myself. I actually know the exact number and it's like. And I know what the cost of that is and I'm aware of it because I'm out in the woods and I see these beautiful elk and moose and I really love the species, love the animals, but there is a fact that one of those individuals, you know, is going to have to feed me. And I, and particularly like on alone, it was very heightened, that experience. So I shot that one animal and I was so, so thankful, you know, that I wanted to give that big guy a hug and like, hey, sorry it was you, but had to be somebody.

There's that picture, you just almost hugging it, right? And you, you can also think about the, the calories, the, the protein, the fat, all of that that that comes from that that will feed you.

Grateful for it. Like the, the gratitude is, is like, you know, definitely there.

What about the bow and arrow perspective?

Well, when you hunt with a bow, you just get so much more up close to the animals. You know, you can't just get it from 600 yards away. You actually have to sneak in within 30 or so yards. And when you do that, the experiences you have are just. They're way more dragged out. So, you know, your heart's beating longer. You have to control your nerves longer. More often than not, it doesn't go your way and the thing gets away and you've been hiking around in the woods for a week and then your opportunity arises and floats away. No, but at the same time, that's the only time when you'll really have those interactions with the animals where you got this bugling bull tearing at the trees right in front of you and other cow, elk and animals running around you. You know, you get. You end up having really, I don't know, dare say intimate experiences with the animal just because. Because you're in it, you're kind of in its world. You're playing its game. It has its senses to defend itself and you have your wit to try to. To get over those. And it really becomes, you know, it's not easy. They're not. It becomes kind of that chess game. And those prey animals are always tuned in. It's, you know, slightest stick, they're looking for wolves or for whatever it is. So there's something really pure and fun about it. You know, I will say there is an aspect that is fun. There's no denying it. It's like how we're, you know, people have been hunting forever and I think it speaks to that part of us somehow. But. And I think bow hunting is probably the most pure form of it and that you get those experiences more often than with a rifle. So I don't know, I enjoy it a lot and, and the way they do regulations and such, kind of the best times to hunt are usually allowed for bow because they're trying to, you know, keep it fair for the animal and such. So.

So the distance, the close distance makes you more in touch with sort of the. The natural way of the predator and prey near one of the predators where.

You have to be clever, you have.

To be quiet, you have to be calm. You have to. All of that.

Yep.

And the full challenge and the luck involved in the same thing as the predators do.

Exactly. How many times do they snap a stick and watch them run off and be like, darn, my stock was failed or, you know, so yeah, you're just. You're in that. In that ecosystem.

How'd you learn to shoot the bow?

Yeah, I was. I didn't grow up hunting. I grew up in the area that a lot of people hunted. But my dad wasn't really into it. And so I never got into it until. Until I lived in Russia with the natives. It was just such a part of everything we did and a part of our life that when I came back, I got a bow and I started doing archery in Virginia. They had. It was a pretty easy way to hunt because the deer were overpopulated and you could get these urban archery permits. So you go out and, you know, every couple days you have an opportunity to shoot a deer that they needed population control. And so there were a lot of them and it gave you a lot of opportunities to learn quickly. So that's what got me into it. And then I found I really enjoyed it.

Do you practice with. With the target also or just practice out?

Oh, no, I would definitely practice with a target a lot. You want to. Again, you kind of have an obligation to do your best because you don't want to be flinging arrows into like the leg of an animal. And it's a cool way, honestly, to provide quality meat for the family. You know, it's all raised naturally and wild and free until you bring it home into the freezer. So.

So if we step back, what are the 10 items you brought and what's actually the challenge of figuring out which items to bring?

Yeah, the challenge is that you don't exactly know what your site opportunities are going to be, so you don't really know. Should I bring a fishing net? Am I going to even have a spot to net or not? And things like that. I brought a axe, a saw, Leatherman wave ferro rod is like a. Makes sparks to start a fire, a frying pan, a sleeping bag, fishing kit, a bow and arrow trapping wire and paracord. And so Those are my 10 items.

Is any regrets? Any.

No major regrets. I took the saw kind of. I thought it would be more of a calorie saver then I didn't really need it. In hindsight, if I was doing season seven instead of six and got to watch, I would have taken the net because I. I just planned to make a net, but I would have rather just had two nets, brought one and left the saw. Because in the northern woods in particular, every tree is, you know, the size of your arm or leg. You can chop it down with an axe and a couple swings. Yeah, yeah. You don't really need the saw. And so it was handy at times and useful. But I think it was my. If I had to do nine items, I would have been just fine without the saw.

So two nests would just expand your food gathering potential. And then in terms of trapping, you were okay with just the little you brought.

The snare wire was good. I ran some, you know, I put out. I used all my snare wire. I ran trapline, which is just a series of traps, through the woods and brush. Every place you see sign, put a snare, put a little mark on the tree. So I knew where that snare was and just make these paths through the woods. And I put out, you know, I don't know how many, 150, 200snares. So every day I'd get a rabbit or two out of them. And then I had a lot of rabbits. But once I got the moose, I actually took all those snares down because I didn't want to catch anything needlessly. And you come to find out you can't live off of rabbits. Man cannot live off a rabbit alone, as it turns out.

So you set up a huge number of traps. You were also fishing and then always on the lookout for moose.

Yeah.

So, like, what. What's in terms of survival if you were to do it over again over and over and over and over? Like, how do you maximize your chance of having enough food to survive for a long time?

You have to be. You have to be really adaptable because everything's gonna. It's always going to look different. Your situation, your location. I actually had a. What I thought was a pretty good plan going into alone, and it just. The, you know, the location didn't allow for what I thought it would.

What was the plan?

Well, I thought I would just catch a bunch of fish because I'm on a really good fishing lake. I catch a whole bunch of fish and let them rot for a little while and then just drag them all through the woods into a big pile and then hunt a bear on that big fish pile. Yeah, that was the plan. And I thought. But when I got there for one, I had a hard time catching fish off the bat. You know, they didn't come like I was hoping. And then for. For two, it had burned prior. So there were no berries, and so there were very few berries, which meant there weren't grouse, there weren't bear. They weren't, you know, they had all gone to other places where the berries were. And so what I had grown accustomed to kind of relying on in Siberia wasn't there there. You know, so in. In Russia, which was a similar environment, it was just grouse and berries and fish and grouse and berries and fish. And then occasionally, you know, you get a moose or something. But I had to reassess, which was part of me being grumpy. At the start, like, this place sucks. And then. And then once I reassessed and, you know, right away I saw that there were moose tracks and such. So I just started to plan for that. I moved my camp into an area that was as removed as I could be from where all the action is, where the tracks were, so that I wasn't disturbing animal patterns. I made sure the wind, the predominant wind, was blowing out my scent to sea or to the water. And then really, to be honest, if you want to actually survive somewhere, it is different than alone. But you do have to be active. And it has to. You're going to have to. You're not going to live, you're not going to be sustainable by starving it out, you have to unlock the key that is sustainability. And I think there's a lot of areas that still have that potential, but you have to figure out what it is. It's usually going to be a combination of fishing, trapping, and then hunting. And then once you have some fishing and trapping will get you until you have some success hunting, and then that'll buy you three or four months of time to continue, you know, to keep hunting again. And you just have to roll off of that. But every, you know, depends on where you are, what opportunities are there.

So, okay, so that's the process, fishing and trapping until you're successful hunting. And then the successful hunt buys you some more time.

Right, right.

Just go year round and then you.

Just go rerun like that. And that's how people did it forever. The pressure was, I noticed it, you know, with that, you got that moose and then you're happy for a week or so, and then you start to. This is finite. I'm going to have to do this again. And imagine if you had a family that was going to starve if you weren't successful this next time. And there's just always that pressure. It made me really appreciate the amount what people had to deal with.

Well, in terms of being active. So you have to do stuff all day. So you get up, get up and planning. What am I going to. In the midst of the frustration, you have to figure out, like, what's. What's the strategy? Like, how do you put up all the traps? Is that a decision? Like, you know, most people, like, sit at their desk and have, like a calendar, whatever. Are you, like, figuring out, like, one.

Thing about wilderness life in general is it's remarkably less scheduled than anything we deal with. Schedules are fairly unique to the modern context. You'd wake up and you Just sort of. You have a, you know, confluence of things you want to do, things you need to do, things you should do, and you just kind of tackle them as you see fit, as it flows in, you know, so. And that's actually one of the things that people really. That I really appreciate about that lifestyle is it really is you're kind of in that flow. And so I'd wake up and be like, maybe I'll go fishing, and then I'll wander over and fish. And then I'd be like, I'm going to go check the trap line, add every day if I add five or ten snares. You know, you're constantly adding to your productive potential and then. But nothing's really scheduled. You're just kind of flying by the seat of your pants.

But then there's a lot of instinct that's already looking so much.

Yeah.

Like you already just, like wisdom from all the times you've had to do it before. You're just actually operating a lot on instinct. Like you said, where to find, to place the shelter. Like, how hard is that calculation where.

To place the shelter if you're, like, dropped off and this is all new to you? Of course, all those things are going to be things you have to really think through and plan. When you're thinking about a shelter, you have to think of, oh, here's a nice flat spot. You know, that's a good place. But also, is there firewood nearby? And if I'm going to be here for months, is there enough firewood that I'm not going to be walking a half a mile to get a dry piece of wood? Is the water nearby? Is it somewhat open, but also protected from the elements? Because sometimes you get a beautiful spot. It's great on a calm day. And then the wind comes, like. And so there's all these factors, even down to taking in what game is doing in the area also and how that relates to where your shelter is.

You said you have to consider where the action will be. And you want to be away from the action, but close enough to it to see it.

Yeah, you want to be. Yeah, right. And so ideally, you know, it depends. You're always going to make give and takes. And one thing with shelters and location selection and stuff, it's another thing. You just have to trust your ability to adapt in the situation because everybody has a particular. You know, you got an idea of a shelter you're going to build, but then you get there and maybe there's a good cliff that you can incorporate you know, or may, and then you just become creative. And that's a really fun process too, to just allow your creativity to try to flourish in it.

What kind of shelters are there?

There's all kinds of philosophies and shelters, which is fun people. It's fun to see people try different things. Mine was fairly basic for the simple reason that I had lived winters through winters in Siberia in a teepee. So I knew I didn't need anything too robust. As long as I had calories, I'd be warm and I wasn't particularly worried about the cold. But you'll see. So I kept my shelter really pretty simple with the idea that I built a simple, a frame type shelter. And then most of my energy is going to be focused on getting calories. And then of course, there's always going to be downtime. And in that downtime, I can tweak, modify, improve my shelter. And that'll just be a constant process that by the time you're there a few months, you'll have all the kinks worked out. It'll be a really nice little setup. But you don't have to start with that necessarily because you got other needs you got to focus on. That said, you'll see a lot of people on a loan that really focus on building the log cabin because they want to be secure or incorporating whatever the earth has around, whether it be rocks or whether it be digging a hole. And we've seen some really cool shelters. And I'm not gonna knock it. Everybody's got. There's all these different strokes for different folks. But my particular idea was to keep it fairly simple, improve it with time, but spend most of my energy. You know, the shelter you really need to think about, it can't be smoky because that'll be miserable. But it is nice to have a fire inside. So you need to have a fire inside that's not going to be dangerous and smoke free and then also airtight because you're never going to have a warm shelter out there because you don't have seals and things like that. But as long as the air is not moving through it, you can have a warm enough shelter with a fire. With a fire and dryer socks and stuff.

How do you get the smoke out of the shelter?

If you have good clay and mud and rock, you can build yourself a fireplace, which is surprisingly not that hard. You know, you just.

Oh, really?

Yeah. It's fun thing to do. It works well. Dig a little hole, start stacking rocks around it, make sure it's opening and it actually works. So that's not as hard as you might think. For me, where I was, I kind of came up with it as I was there with my A frame. I hadn't built an A frame shelter like that before. And so when I built it, and then I had put a bunch of tin cans in the ground so that air would get the fire. So it was fed by air, which helps curate a draft. But I realized in an A frame, it really doesn't, the smoke doesn't go out very well. Even if you leave a hole at the top, it collects and billows back down. So then I cut some of my tarp and made this and cut a hole in the A frame. And then I made like a hood vent that I could pull down and catch the smoke with. And so while the fire was going, it would just billow out the hood vent. And then when it was done burning and it was just hot coals, I could close it, seal it up and keep the heat in. So it actually worked pretty well.

So start with something that kind of works and then keep improving.

Yeah, exactly.

I always wonder, I mean, the, the, the log cabin, it feels like that's the thing that takes a huge amount of work for work.

The difference between a log cabin and a warm log cabin is like an immense amount of work. And all the chinking and all the door ceiling and you know, the chimney has to be anyway, so otherwise it's just going to be the same ambient temperature as outside. So I don't think alone's the proper context for a log cabin. I think like a log cabin is great in, as a hunting cabin, as, you know, if you're going to have something for years. But in a three, six month scenario, I don't know that it's worth the calorie expenditure.

And it is a lot of calories. That's an interesting sort of metaphor of just like get something that works. You see a lot of this with companies, like successful companies, they get a prototype, get a system that's working and improve fast in response to the conditions, to the environment.

Yeah, because it's constantly changing and you.

End up being a lot better if you're able to learn how to respond quickly versus having a big plan that takes a huge amount of time to accomplish.

Forcing that through the pipeline, whether or not it's fits. Yeah.

Can you just speak to like the place you were the, the Canadian Arctic. It looked cold.

Yeah, we were right near the Arctic Circle. I don't know, it was like 60 km south of the Arctic Circle. So it was. It's a really cool area, really remote, thousands of little lakes. You know, when you fly over, you're just like, man, that's incredible. There must be so many of those lakes that people haven't been to. You know, it really was a neat area, really remote. And for the show's purpose, I think it was perfect because it did have enough game and enough different avenues forward that I think it really did reward activity. So I think. But it's a special place. It was Dene, or the tribe that lived there, the Dene people. Which, interestingly enough, here's a side note. When I was in Siberia, I floated down this river called the Pudgamanayatunguska, and you get to this village called Suleimai, and there's these Ket people, they're called, and there's only 600 of them left. But in the middle of Siberia, not in, like, the Pacific Coast. But their language is related to the Dene people. And so somehow, you know, that connection was there thousands of years ago. Super interesting. But.

Yeah. So language travels somehow.

Right. And the remnants stayed back there. It's very interesting to think through history.

Yeah. Within language, it contains a history of a peoples, and it's interesting how that evolves over time and how wars tell the story. Like language tells the story of conflict, and conflict shapes language, and we get. We get the result of that.

Right. So fascinating.

And the barriers that language creates is also the thing that leads to wars and misunderstandings and all this kind of stuff. It's a fascinating tension. Mm. But it got cold there, right? It got real cold.

Yeah. I mean, I think. I don't know what. That I didn't have a thermometer. I imagine it probably got to negative 30 at the most. You know, like, it might have gotten. It would have definitely gotten colder had we stayed longer. But, yeah, I. To be honest, I. I was. Said I never felt cold out there. I was pretty. I had that one pretty dialed in. And then once you have calories, you can stay warm. You can stay active. You can. You know, you gotta dress warm. You know, you don't never let. There's a good one. If you're in the cold, never let yourself get too cold, because what happens is you'll stop feeling what's cold, and then frostbite and then issues, and then it's really hard to warm back up. So every. I. It was so annoying. I'd be out going to ice fish or something, and then I would just notice that My feet are cold. And you're just like, ah, dang it. I just turn around, go back, start a fire, dry my boots out, make sure my feet are warm, and then go again. I wouldn't ignore that, you know.

So you want to be able to feel the cold.

Yeah. You want to make sure you're still feeling things and that you're not tough and through it. Because you can't really tough through the cold. It'll just get you.

So what's your relationship with the cold, psychologically, physically?

It's interesting. Oh, I actually there's a some part of it that really makes you feel alive. You know, I'm imagining, you know, sometime in Austin here, you go out and it's hot and sweaty and you're like, you get that kind of. Kind of saps you. There's something about that brisk cold that hits your face that you're like, boo. Wakes you up, makes you feel really alive, engaged, you know, it feels like the margins of air are smaller, so you're alert and engaged a little more. There is something that's a little bit life giving just because you feel on an edge. You're walking, you're on this edge, but you have to be alert because even some of the natives I lived with, the lady had face issues because she let her head get cold when they were on a snowmobile. Hat was up too high. That little mistake. And then it just freezes this part of your forehead and then the nerves go. And then you got issues when just hat wasn't high enough. So you kind of got to be dialed in on stuff.

Well, there's a psychological element to just. I mean, it's unpleasant. If I were to think of what kind of unpleasant would I choose? You know, fasting for long periods of time, going without food in a warm environment is way more pleasant than being.

Fed in a golden.

Yeah, exactly. Like if you were to choose.

I choose the opposite. Oh, yeah.

Okay, There you go. I wonder if that's. I wonder if you're born with that or if that's developed, maybe your time in Siberia like you or. Or do you gravitate towards. I wonder what that is because I really don't like survival in the cold.

I think a little bit of it is learned. You, like, almost learned not. You learn not to fear it. You learn to kind of appreciate it. And a big part of that is. I mean, to be honest, it's like dressing warm, being good. It's not that, you know, there's no secrets to that. You just can't beat the cold. So you just need to dress warm. The native, you know, all that fur, all that stuff. And then all of a sudden, you have your little refuge, have a nice warm fire going in your teepee, you know, and then I bet you, you could learn to appreciate it.

Yeah, I think some of it is just opening yourself up to the possibility there's something enjoyable about it, like here.