Kimbal Musk: The Art of Cooking, Tesla, SpaceX, Zip2, and Family | Lex Fridman Podcast #417

For me, cooking is an art.

What's your favorite ingredient to cook with?

There isn't one. It's more like when there is one, it really is one. You know, like there's peaches on the. On the COVID of this cookbook. Those peaches, those were in August. Colorado peaches. It just doesn't get any better than that.

On that day, at that moment, that was the best.

That was the. But that only lasts for a week. And then they don't taste so great. Yeah, but damn, are they so good in that moment. And you just can't stop wanting to use that ingredient.

The following is a conversation with Kimball Musk, a longtime entrepreneur and chef and author of a new cookbook called the Kitchen Cookbook Cooking for your community. You should check it out. It is, in fact, the first cookbook I've ever owned. I've already made stuff from it, and it's delicious. This is the Lex Friedman podcast to support it. Please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Kimball Musk. Growing up in South Africa, you said it was a violent place. What are some formative moments that you remember from that time?

South Africa was so. I grew up in apartheid South Africa, but more specifically the fall of apartheid. So it was the 80s. I was a teenager in the 80s. And our community would. Part of our social life, frankly, was the anti apartheid protests. And to go be with white people, black people, kind of mixing it all together. The most formative experience is, frankly, how much I appreciate a place like America where we have value for human life. So there was a country where human life was not valued. It was a. It's a weird thing to come from that to here, where we take it so seriously if someone dies in a war or something like that. And we just didn't take it seriously. In South Africa, people died. People were killed. I saw someone killed in front of me was getting off a train, and it's a very violent train. Known, known for violence. We were stupid kids. We didn't really listen to our parents. We went on this train and the doors opened and I had people trying to get off the train. And in front of me, two black people. One black guy just stabbed this knife in the side of this other black guy's head. You're like, what the fuck? And you just. I got to get off the train.

How old were you at this time?

Probably 16 or 17. And I got to get off the train. And everyone is trying to get me to get off because, you know, they're all behind me. So I step off and I step into the pool of blood. One foot. And then I just walk for about 100 paces, while the stickiness of the blood just kind of, for my sneakers, just on one foot, like, leaves a footprint behind me. And you just walk on. You just walk on.

Did the others go to the as well?

Everyone walked on.

That's an interesting point you make. Underlying the violence is a kind of philosophy that human life is disposable, the individual life is disposable. I mean, that underlies many ideologies. You know, I grew up in the Soviet Union. The value of human life was lower there than in the United States. The value of the individual in the United States is really high. Yeah, it's probably an index you can put together, like.

Yeah, right, exactly.

That's a really interesting way to put it, because violence is much easier on a mass scale. Suffering causing suffering on a mass scale is much easier when you don't value the human life.

I've heard this before where, which I think I agree with, is when someone is killed, someone's taken from our lives. The vacuum that it creates, a social vacuum, is extraordinarily painful. And it truly is true. I mean, if someone in my community passes away, it's very, very sad for me. And when you go to a place where live, grow up in a place where that human life is not valued, there's something about the. There's a little bit less of the social vacuum created because everyone is kind of expecting everyone to potentially be taken out at any moment. But then there's also a beauty to it because there's a much more of a celebratory element. When my cousin Russ and I, we, again, we're stupid kids, we shouldn't be doing this. But we go into the townships where a lot of the violence would be happening, and we really didn't see most of the violence there. It was in these more protests and so forth. But there's a joy that also comes from lower value of human life. There's a real joy. Like everyone is like, well, I mean, it's beautiful. We have dinner with black friends, friends with their family, and we were still pretty young, and there was just a real joy to it.

When you accept mortality, you can really enjoy life.

You can really enjoy life. I mean, I think there's actually quite a nice insight. I. I've never really put it that way, but I think that's right, actually. I think you just chill out a bit, take things a little less seriously.

Because life does End for everybody.

It does, right?

And if you just head on accept that fact, you can just enjoy every single moment and let go of this attachment and just enjoy the moment.

I do love that we all live longer and so forth, but we should live longer with the goal of joy and the goal of happiness and peace, not some form of misery that you choose to attach yourself to.

Maximize joy.

Maximize joy. That's right.

There's a story that Walter Isaacson writes about where Elon got beat up pretty bad. And you were there. And then you also had to watch your dad yell at Elon for an hour, calling him worthless. All those kinds of things. You said it was the worst memory of your life. What do you make of such cruelty? What do you remember from that time?

I mean, it was horrible. I think, you know, coming back to the point of low value of human life. They tried to kill him. It wasn't. There was no holding back. I just watched someone. It wasn't just one, but there was a main person. And then there was a few others that piled in. They. They just. They try to kill him in front of me. And we were eating sandwiches on a. On a staircase at. At the school, out in. Outdoor staircase. And I just had to. They were. They were not coming up to me. And then I just had to watch and I couldn't help. It was one of the saddest, most difficult experiences. This was. It's just awful.

Just like that life can end.

Yeah.

It could have been you.

Yeah, I think so. I've had a life near death experience where I almost died. I was in 2010, and I think that. And I broke my neck. And I can go to that story in a moment, but this was different. This comes back to the low value of human life part where if someone had killed my brother, if that person had beat him to death, which he was trying to do, life would have gone on. That's like an insane thought in an American. Maybe in some tough neighborhoods, but for the most part, it's another thing.

Yeah. The brutality of that. The mundaneness of that brutality.

Yeah.

It makes you think of all the places in the world that that's happening.

Exactly.

And all the beautiful people that just disappear.

I always say to people who have an opinion about America that this is a really bad country or whatever. And I say, look, please go try another country before you say that. Not to say that America can't get better, but please go try another country. Because not having that perspective or having a perspective that I don't know they'll Catch up on their shoulder about the country that they're in. Okay, go try another country. And then come back and tell me, pick any country. It doesn't have to be some very violent country. You could pick any country. And you just realize that actually the world doesn't think the same way that America thinks. And you're going to just learn a perspective that I think gives you a better way to critique where we live in America.

Yeah, it's humbling. You said that your dad was a roller coaster of affection and then verbal abuse. Walter Isaacson quotes Barack Obama, who said, someone once said that every man is trying to live up to his father's expectations or make up for his father's mistakes. And. And I suppose that may explain my particular malady. Is part of that ring true for you?

What I thought you were going to say was we thought you were going to end the sentence was live up to my father's expectations. That's what most people say. But then you said the second part, which is make up for his mistakes. And I think that's actually. That one rings true for me. He was really is a liability. But I don't connect. I'm not connected to him. But he's very. He taught me the phrase I used to have was he taught me what not to do. So I still actually learned a lot. What kind of human not to be, what kind of actions not to take. And so that kind of closer to living up to his mistakes. But it's. But my father is such a train wreck that it's not really mistakes. It's like intentional actions of what not to do. Okay, don't do that.

But there's still the trauma of that. You know, it has an effect on the human psychology and can permeate through time. So it has probably complex indirect effects on who you are. The good and the bad is a.

Critique that my friends give me, which is when they're talking to me, I kind of just drift away. I'm still looking at them, still nodding, might even respond to them in their conversation, but I'm actually not there. And I've realized that actually that grew up because my father would just. Verbal abuse is one way to say it. It is abuse, but it's more just verbal diarrhea for you for hours and constantly saying, do you understand? He wants to make sure that I'm paying attention. So I trained myself to look like I'm paying attention, but I'm not to disappear to someplace. Disappear to someplace.

Wherever that is.

Yeah. And I do that Less and less over time.

But that path has been paved somewhere in your mind at childhood, so it could be easy to walk down it. You and Elon were close growing up. You're still close. What did you learn from each other? How did you compliment each other?

Yeah, I think we are a good complement. I'll talk for myself first. My strength is definitely on the social side. I love the gathering place and I love putting people together in person and I love to have vibrant debates and conversations. I've been doing that forever and including swing fun parties and stuff where. Where I bring people together and I really kind of want people to have fun and be. But be vulnerable in a. In a. Not just like silly partying, just. But actually like, let's all connect. The definition for me of a good party is people laugh and cry like I want to people. I want to have people having to have an emotional connection to Burning man every year. And that is. There's no question you will cry at some point during Burning Man.

No small talk.

No small talk. Yes, exactly. No small talk.

Yeah.

You're totally right. On like most parties. Not parties, but most events you go to are like clubs, these sort of nightclubs, and I never go to those. And my. My joke is it's. Why would I want to go to a place where I pay to shout small talk in the dark?

So it feels like I. The only reason I enjoy those places is the full absurdity of exactly that.

Right. It's totally absurd.

What are we. What are we doing? What is this? What is this like?

But I have. So my compliment for my brother was just bringing joy and social connection. And he's truly. He's an. He's an engineering genius. I've worked with him forever and we do complement each other.

You just came out with a cookbook, by the way. Thank you for giving me my first cookbook. I feel legit.

I love that first cookbook.

I'm going to keep it. Keep it on the counter and it's going to give me legitimacy when anyone comes over. Hey, listen, I'm basically a chef now.

That's right. Exactly.

When did you first fall in love with cooking?

I started cooking when I was 11 years old. My mom is just. She's wonderful, but she. She's self. Admittedly a bad cook, but at the time, I think anyone with kids goes through this. Your kids just want something that. Spaghetti bolognese or a burger or something. And my mom would do brown bread, plain yogurt and boiled squash. The absolute most disgusting things that a Child could imagine eating. And so I said, can I cook? And she said, yeah, you want to cook? No problem. So I went to the grocery store and I. I. Back in those days, a butcher separate to the grocery store. And I went to the butcher and I said, you know what can I cook? And he pulled out a chicken, and he said, this is. This is the easiest recipe for you. Just put it on a pan in an oven, a hot oven, because back then, the ovens weren't necessarily like 400 degrees or 4:50 or whatever, and put it in a hot oven for one hour and enjoy. That was it. And so I went home, and actually I also brought some french fries, I'll tell you that as well. So I was like, I'm a kid. Of course I want French fries. So the roast chicken was french fries, and the chicken came out, and it was just fantastic. It was absolutely fantastic.

That's incredible.

Yeah. Yeah.

You didn't screw it up the first time.

First of all, I think that's also kicks off the magic. Like, if you screw it up and you're like, oh, maybe this is not for me. So for me, it really did kick it off.

You started out on a high note.

Yeah, right, exactly. But I tell the french fry part, which was a disaster. So I cooked the french fries, but I didn't heat the oil first. So I just put the potatoes in the oil and I waited for it to heat up, and I just was throwing up later that night. Your body can't ingest that much because it sucks the oils in. Oh.

Oh.

And so that was a disaster. But at the time, it tasted good. The man, the. The real magic, which I also found was wonderful, was when I cooked, you know, my brother, my sister, my mom, all very, very busy, very intense. People would sit down and we would have a meal together. And I was like, wow, this is a powerful. It's a very powerful thing that I've now got. Where in no other way could I have that connection with. With my family. I mean, obviously we stay connected, we're very close, etc. But in no other way can we sit down and just talk about things or talk about whatever's on our mind or just to just not even talk, just to be at the table together. And I've done that now through my whole life, my kids, still, for my family. And we will do gratitudes at the beginning of our meal. And it's just. I think what kept me cooking, what made my love of cooking so great was. Was actually the fact that we would Sit down together and be present with each other. And I'm also just also hard with that too. So I, I also get to be present.

What is that about food that like brings people together and not just together, but like really together, where you're like paying attention.

Right.

Like, what is that? What, what is it? Why is it food? Like, what else does that? Sometimes maybe alcohol can do that, which is a kind of food, I guess.

Yeah. But I think alcohol is different because you usually standing when you're doing alcohol, so you're, you're like, you're socializing, but it's kind of. You're just going to stay in more in the small talk zone. Yeah, right. Whereas if you sit down and I, I see this in my restaurant, in the kitchen in Boulder, where we, we have every viewpoint or we go to Denver, every viewpoint, when in Chicago, every viewpoint. And the physical presence of someone being right there is. People are just, they're just very different. Absolutely different to what they are online. I think we all know the difference between you send an email to someone and they misunderstand the email and you, oh, if I just had talked to the person, it would have been fine. Well, this is now happening at scale with all of these, what do you call, trolling or whatever. And I've sat at the bar and I've had a hardcore Trump supporter and I'm just curious, just like, tell me what, I'm not a Trump supporter, but tell me more. And it actually draws the conversation out because you're there for an hour or longer, there's no rush to get the answer. And I think that's a big difference. I've had one time where just a couple months ago I had someone. I was sitting at the community table. We have a community table in the restaurant. And I didn't know him too well, but he asked me, did I know that 911 was a conspiracy and it didn't really happen.

It didn't happen. Yeah.

And I was like, huh. So I actually, I was at 9 11. I was, I watched, I mean, I watched Towers 4. I was like, I was there, physically there. So it's like, no, allegedly, there's no doubt in my mind, but I didn't want to interrupt what he had to say, so I let him talk for 5 minutes, 6 minutes, 7 minutes. And again, you're there for a while, so you're not in a rush to jump in and argue. And then I shared that I was there. And I think because I had been willing to listen to him, he was willing to listen to me. And he. I don't know if he changed his mind. Certainly he doesn't change my mind. But it was actually a pretty cool conversation to kind of get into each other's mind.

Well, I think you connect on a different level. Not on the level of, like the conspiracy, but on the level of basic humanity.

Yes.

Like, that's what you really connect on. And then it almost becomes interesting and fun that you can exchange ideas, even crazy ideas out there ideas, and kind of play with them. We humans are good at that.

Yeah, exactly. I like the term play with them. Because what you're not trying to do is shut the conversation down. You're also not trying to talk down to me. Yeah, exactly. Like, let me just be nice while I totally disagree with this person. You can do that for a few minutes, you can't do that for two hours.

And there's something like, about food that completely. I don't know, it must be evolutionary. That makes us vulnerable in a way that even just standing there for a prolonged period of time doesn't. There's something about, you know, like when the animals gather to the water or whatever.

Yeah, right.

Like this kind of experience where you're just like, all right, let's. Let's just acknowledge together that we need sustenance.

Yeah.

And somehow that kind of grounds us to, like, we're just. We're just a bunch of descendants of apes here. Just kind of like, grateful to be alive.

Yeah.

Frankly. And grateful to be consuming this thing which keeps us alive. And in that context, you can talk about all kinds of stuff. You can discuss flat earth and enjoy it.

Absolutely. In fact, one of my favorite things to do is you do a Jeffersonian style dinner, let's say five or six people. Sometimes people will break off in individual conversations. That's actually when things break down. So that's when you kind of go back to small talk. Like, oh, I'm stuck next to this guy. I'm just going to do a little small talk. What you need to do to really create a great conversation is one conversation at the table. And that's where there'll be some simple questions that I'll say. I'll say, what's your middle name? And you'll be amazed at the stories you get from that. But it's about creating vulnerability. So they're like, oh, no one's ever asked me that before. So then they become vulnerable. And then it's something as simple as what's the most fun thing you've done recently? And what is the most fun thing you're looking forward to. And I have gotten into with those prompts, I've gotten into hours long discussions on God. I've gotten into hours long discussions on love. I've gotten into hours long discussions on anger. It's actually amazing when people are just asked a question like, what's the most fun thing you've done lately? Well, why would anger come up? Well, actually, they're in a vulnerable place, so it'll just kind of come out of them.

So you get to see this. You get to see this at the Kitchen. And you said Boulder, Denver, Chicago.

Yeah. And we're gonna open in Austin.

In Austin. That's what I saw. When?

In October is the goal.

In October is the goal. Well, I mean, speaking of characters and human beings, Austin is fascinating. I forget how long ago. A couple months ago, I was just sitting at a bar and the two people were talking, and they were talking about Marxism. And it turns out that they're anarcho communists, which is the thing. And I got into this conversation.

Communist likes drugs.

That's a good question to ask.

I think I know some of those.

Anyway. They're beautiful people. I think they're local, from Austin. I don't know the depth of their personal experience of the different kinds of communist like systems, but it was fascinating to listen to and then get to know them. And the. The humanity, the weirdness, like the characters, it's just. I mean, I love it. One of the reasons I really love Austin I decided to be here is just the. The cliche thing of keep Austin weird. I mean, there's a lot of weird.

I love it. I think that I've talked to a lot of Austin. I've been here forever, and I'm like, man, you got to hold us accountable. We got to keep this place weird 100%.

Which makes the restaurant seem great because you have all these characters come in. It's great. So I look forward to that. But you were saying, like, you get to see humans in real life interact. That's one of the beautiful things over food. In the book you write, Picasso once said, the meaning of life is to find your gift. The purpose of life is to give it away. Then you wrote that you believe food is a gift we give ourselves three times a day. Can you explain that? The gift?

Yeah, it's actually, I think it's one of my most powerful life lessons is, is we have to eat. So it's not like you have a choice. You have to eat. And so what I choose to do Is I choose to make it a gift to myself for each meal. And most of the time, the best gift is with friends, with family. So we'll cook some scrambled eggs in the morning with my daughter, or we'll have dinner with our family. To me, it's a gift we give ourselves three times a day, you know, at least, but for the most part, three times a day. Let's make it a good one.

What makes it a good one to you? Like what. What aspect makes it a good one?

Well, first, definitely eating with. With people. So that makes it a good one. So eating. Eating as a. In a restaurant or. It doesn't have to be my restaurant. We have the energy of. Of people around you, energy of the town, people you don't know. Creates a little bit of a vibe. You mentioned the watering hole analogy that animals sipping at the water. But there's an energy to that because they're also looking around going, am I just about to be eaten? So they're all in it together, but we need to have water. But there's also a little bit of tension as well in the background. And I think that's what restaurants do, a very, very subtle version of that. You're in a room with strangers, and you're a little cluster. Okay, fine, you guys are connected, but you're in a room with strangers, and it's just something that adds that energy to the meal. Yeah.

You're a little bit wondering what does everyone else think about our little cluster?

Right. Like, are we too loud? Or just people are random, so something random could happen.

And also, depending on your personality, if you're an extrovert, maybe you want to show off to the other clusters.

Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. Totally. Right? I mean, know, look at the cowboy hat. I mean, actually I'll take my hat off when I want to have a quiet meal, and I can leave my hat on when I'm.

So you're aware of the lock?

I'm aware of the effect it has. Yeah, absolutely.

Everyone turns.

That's right.

And then it's back to the watering hole. Because when you wear a cowboy hat, you just might actually not.

Yeah, I'm like, they're gonna come. They're gonna get me first at noon.

I love it.

I gotta tell the story. So the. Can you talk to the. The craziness of being in the restaurant world where you're sitting at a table and anything can happen in the restaurant. So there's one time, like 15 years ago, this guy comes up to us and says, we'd like to Propose to his wife, his girlfriend. And so we said, okay, cool. We've done this before. Make sure it's all set up. 6:00pm kind of reservation. So she shows up and we give her a glass of champagne and just. We obviously didn't want to spoil the surprise. So we're just doing everything we can. But then he doesn't. Then he doesn't arrive, and then we're like, oh, man. Now we're like, don't leave. Can we get you another glass of champagne? We're doing everything we can. Because the guy was obviously earnest earlier. We're just. Is he stuck in traffic or whatever? And coming through the back door of the restaurant, which is. You're not allowed to come through the back door of the restaurant. A marching band from the school, the university, comes through the restaurant, full on brass band and the whole thing. And he gets down and he proposes. And it's beautiful. Sure. But it's also like, man, this is chaos. This is insane. And we would never have said yes to this if he'd actually told us what he was going to do.

Well, sometimes in life you have to do it and apologize.

You do it and apologize. But that host to that kind of. What's the crazy thing that could happen in a.

It.

It's subtle, but it's. But it's still there.

So in 2004, you opened the Kitchen. It's an American bistro restaurant. What was it like? What's it like running a restaurant? The good, the bad and ugly? What's the. What's the easy, what's the fun, and what's the hard?

I think the thing that I absolutely love about running the restaurant. Not eating it a bit. Running the restaurant is the. The tangible reaction from people. And you also kind of know when you screwed it up, and you also know when you got it right. So even. It's kind of a weird way to say this, but even if the customer's unhappy, you know, whether you got it right or wrong, it's not just about the food you're making, but it's about the person's psychological state. Yeah. And you'll even. You'll. You'll do something that you're like, you know, that. That was not well. And their psychological state is they're just in a very happy place and they love it. And you're like, huh, interesting. You know, like, that's not how I would have reacted to that dish. Yeah. And then the other way around, you'd like, no, I got that right. And that that person's just like really unhappy today. Yeah.

And it's so hard to read humans because you have to. If you got it right, that can look a million different ways depending on the emotional roller coaster that human is living through. Like, I've been some very low points and I've gone to like a restaurant alone and just sitting there and be truly happy was just the Zen aspect of it. And it was just a great, like a great steak or something like this. And maybe to other people around me would look like I'm very unhappy just because I'm within my. Within myself.

Your day.

Yeah, within myself. But I'm truly happy within that struggle. So yeah, it's interesting, but you can kind of tell.

Yeah, you could tell. And what you mentioned, being at the bar, one of the most gift. The most gifted bartenders really understand that, you know, it's. It goes beyond. But what's also great about a restaurant goes beyond the one time experience that you walk in and have that experience is the good bartenders, they remember you. Oh, you were in a few months ago and this is kind of your thing. You might need a little time. And other people will come in, they want a conversation or other people come in and they're going through a divorce and they just want to be sad for a moment, have a squatch. And it's like, it's amazing what you learn in the restaurant world to just be connected to humanity.

Yeah. What is that about bars? That's a different experience. You said the table, the communal.

The table is when you connect with people, learn about each other. Bars, you can sometimes do that. You can talk left and right, but you have the freedom to always break free. You can say, oh, okay, great, I'm going to go back to my meal. It's kind of like a friend. You can turn on and off at any time because the bartender knows that they're trained. Like, if you want attention, I'm going to give it to you. If you don't, I'm going to. I'm going to stay away. If you, if you want to be chatty, I'm going to be chatty. You want to be completely in your head, I'll leave you in your head.

But there's also strangers kind of next to you that you kind of. There's a feeling with a bar that you're kind of alone together.

Yeah. And you can reach out, you can add some conversation or you can choose not to.

And you can exit quickly.

You can exit. You can. Exactly. It's a really good exit. So. So Bars are wonderful. And I love going to a bar by myself after work. Might have a scotch. Might even not even have alcohol. Just have something. And I just maybe have a snack or something before dinner because I'll go home and have dinner with the family. And that 20 minutes is just an amazing state change from daytime to nighttime. Whereas if I went straight home, I'm, like, still in my head and I'm just trying to. Trying to get grounded and I'm just. I'm not as pleasant of a person. So that's another powerful use of a bar, is just like a transition time.

Well, I mean, it would be remiss. Not to mention the other use of the bar, which is like when you're going through some shit in life and you just go. I mean, that's sort of. It's the cliche thing. I've been somewhere.

Exactly.

But, like, the bar makes the melancholy somehow, like, rich and beautiful and like it's. You feel heard.

Yeah.

In the silence.

Yes. You feel heard. Like I said earlier, like, the. The people going through a divorce, they don't know where else to go. Yeah. This is. These are mostly men. Sometimes women will do it, but mostly men will do this. And women have other ways of processing it, but they just. They want a place to be sad. They want a place where they could feel comfortable talking about it if they weren't. They're certainly not going to go into too much detail, but they just want to say something. Yeah. And the bartender is there for them.

Yeah. You don't know where to go.

You don't know where to go. Exactly.

The bar. Yeah, you're right. Like, for men especially, is a place to just go.

Yeah.

And just. I don't know. What is that?

I mean, what is that? I still do it myself. Where if I'm at home and I don't have a work thing that I got to deal with, and I don't have kids and I don't have my wife or my family around. I don't often cook for myself. I actually love going to a bar by myself. I have a glass of red wine, and I usually don't have a starter appetizer, like a main meal, and I just take in the energy of the space. It's my restaurant, someone else's restaurant. I just take in the energy, and it's so much, so much better than being home and turning the TV on. No, no, no, no, no. I want to be out in the restaurant. I want to feel the energy of the town. The other thing that restaurants Teach me is they're the front lines of the economy or what's a better word for it? Just like this front. Front lines of the energy of how.

Things are going like, of a peoples in general. It doesn't necessarily mean this part of town, but it could be the entire society.

Exactly. So you can go into a restaurant and I'll use a simple example. And why is the restaurant empty? Ah, there's a football game going on and there's such a large number of people want to watch that game that the restaurant is quiet. Or it might be like another World Series or something and you're like, wow, that's so interesting. You can actually watch in America, of course, American humanity. You can watch them move in their patterns just by being in the restaurant. Yeah. And then another time you might be in a restaurant and it's just jamming and it's a Monday night and you're like, what is the energy that created this on a Monday night? And maybe even on a cold February Monday night? What is it? And sometimes you can't find out, but you can feel it. And it's a, it's like it's my, it's my front lines of humanity that I. That I also just really love about the restaurants.

Yeah. It could be empty, could be full. Empty bars. There's a magic to those too. Yeah, you could still feel that energy. I don't know.

I actually prefer empty bars than, than full ones.

It's just you and the bartender. I mean some of my greatest experience is just the quiet bar. It's just me and the bartender and they're doing their thing and they've seen so many. I've almost like through osmosis somehow feel the stories that that bartender has seen, has felt, has heard.

Yeah.

And all that kind of stuff. I mean that it's. It's not to be sort of like spiritual about it, but it seems like it's in the walls or something. Like there's the history is felt and.

Some of these bars are actually very old and it's wonderful. Like there are many in Europe like this, but there's a couple in New York City a few hundred years old and they're still operating non stop for that long. And man, you feel it.

Yeah. Let me ask you some questions about ingredients. What's your favorite ingredient to cook with?

For me, cooking is an art. Right. So be like asking me what's my favorite, favorite paint color to use. It's not that it isn't like there isn't one. It's more like when there is one, it really is one.

You know, like, let's ask you some questions about ingredients. What's your favorite ingredient to cook with?

For me, cooking is an art. Right. So be like asking me what's my favorite, favorite paint color to use. It doesn't. It's not that it isn't like there isn't one. It's more like when there is one, it really is one. You know, like there's peaches on the, on the COVID of this cookbook. Those peaches, those were in August. Colorado peaches. It just doesn't get any better than that.

On that day, at that moment. That was the best.

That was the best. But that only lasts for a week, and then they don't taste so great. Yeah, but damn, are they so good in that moment. And you just can't stop wanting to use that ingredient.

They look really good.

They're so good.

What's your favorite fruit? I love veggies and fruit. What's your favorite fruit?

I love a smoothie bowl. So I do sort of berries, raspberries, But I use fruit more in the form of a smoothie bowl than I eat fruit that often. I like an apple or a banana, but for most part, I prefer, like the blended.

Not me. I love the way you casually sound like an apple.

An apple is pretty great for me.

It's a problem. I think probably cherry's number one. Probably. What do they call it? Granny smooth apples, number two.

Oh, yeah, those are great. But try it. When? Sometime come to Colorado in August. And when you try those peaches, it is like heaven has arrived in your mouth. It is so ridiculously good.

But just for a week in August.

Just for a week. You can't have it all year long.

What about veggies? You wrote that Chef Hugo, that you worked with, the co founder of the kitchen with, taught you the power of a good vegetable.

Yeah.

What's the power of a good vegetable?

So I've trained in New York, right. As a French chef, but it wasn't very much ingredients focused. It wasn't very much sourcing focused. He came from the River Cafe in London, which was one of the OGs of the farm to table and still going strong today. And he, he taught me the. The value of getting to know farmers and getting to know vegetables from that farm versus vegetables from that farm. And they're actually different soils, a little different the way they grow it, a little different. It's the opposite of the industrial machine where everything needs to look exactly the same. And Sometimes you'll get carrots that are kind of ugly and deformed, but there's much sweeter than the carrots you'd get for other purposes. So you'd make a carrot puree out of that. And then you take carrots that are more typical in shape and size. You might roast them for dinner. So it's the appreciation for vegetables in general. I probably would say carrots is my favorite, just because that was an example of one where I've really had to learn how to use the different types of carrots that come from all of our farms. And it's fun. You know, it's a fun ingredient. If you just went to Whole Foods or just went to a grocery store and you just got exactly the same carrot every time, less fun. But go to a farmer's market and see what you get, and you'll. You'll see they're quite different.

Yeah, Carrot, for me, is probably number one. I have rigorous, detailed rankings for fruit and veggies.

That's amazing.

We'll get into it. Well, I am the kind of person that would have, like, a spreadsheet for that, but I'm mostly just making fun of myself. But I do love carrots. I wish they weren't so full of carbs, but, yeah, I'm not.

I'm just not anti carbs, you know, I think the anti carb. Yeah, yeah. I think they play a role, you know? Like, I am. I have a great friend who's an amazing doctor, and he did some tests for me and everything, and turns out I have a gluten allergy. And I was like, okay, so what that means is I shouldn't eat gluten. He's like, yeah, it's like, okay, but I also have hay fever, and that means I should not go out into nature. So it's like, nah, I think I'm going to go out into nature, and maybe what I'll do on bread and pasta is, like, the true carbs. I'll just have it when it's really good, because when it's really good, it's really good. And you don't want to miss that most of the time. Okay, Find this crummy bread. Whatever. Like, I can skip that part, but I find all of these diets are like, no, none of this, or super this, super that. I. I wonder if they're just like a. Like, people are just looking for something to hang on to. But these diets have been around forever, and if they work, then we would know that.

Yeah, I think One of the biggest problems with diets is it adds stress when you do have that perfect bowl of pasta. If you're. If you have categorized yourself as a low carb eating person, you might be very stressed about enjoying this.

Yeah.

When you should just let go.

Let go. This is your cheat day or whatever. Yeah. And I've heard that. And actually, I have friends who do that their cheat day. And I say to them, I'm only going to hang out with you on your cheat day because that's when you're actually fun.

Yeah. I mean, I would say, like, for me, there's things that make me feel really good, but they're not rules. They're not. They're like, go to.