Lisa Feldman Barrett: Love, Evolution, and the Human Brain | Lex Fridman Podcast #140

The following is a conversation with Lisa Feldman Barrett, her second time on the podcast. She's a neuroscientist at Northeastern University and one of my favorite people. Her new book called Seven and a Half Lessons about the Brain is out now as of a couple days ago. So you should definitely support Lisa by buying it and sharing with friends. If you like it, it's a great short intro to the human brain. Quick mention of each sponsor followed by some thoughts related to the episode. Athletic Greens the all in one drink that I start every day with to cover all my nutritional bases. 8. Sleep a mattress that cools itself and gives me yet another reason to enjoy sleep. Masterclass online courses that I enjoy from some of the most amazing people in history and betterhelp online therapy with a licensed professional. Please check out these sponsors in the description to get a discount and to support this podcast. As a side note, let me say that Lisa, just like Manolis Kelis, is a local brilliant mind and friend and someone I can see talking to many more times. Sometimes it's fun to talk to a scientist not just about their field of expertise, but also about random topics, even silly ones. From love to music to philosophy. Ultimately, it's about having fun, something I know nothing about. This conversation is certainly that. It may not always work, but it's worth a shot. I think it's valuable to alternate along all kinds of dimensions, like between deeper technical discussions and more fun random discussion. From liberal thinker to conservative thinker, from musician to athlete, from CEO to junior engineer, from friend to stranger, variety makes life and conversation more interesting. Let's see where this little podcast journey goes. If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review it with five stars on Apple Podcast, follow on Spotify, support on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter lexfriedman. And now here's my conversation with Lisa Feldman Barrett. Based on the comments in our previous conversation, I think a lot of people will be very disappointed, I should say, to learn that you are in fact married. As they say, all the good ones are taken. Okay, so I'm a fan of your husband as well, Dan. He's a programmer, a musician. So I'm a man after my own heart. Can I ask a ridiculously over romanticized question of when did you first fall in love with Dan?

It's actually. It's a really. It's a really romantic story, I think so. I was divorced by the time I was 26. 27. 26 I guess. And I was in my first academic job which was Penn State University which is in the middle of Pennsylvania, surrounded by mountains. So you have it's four hours to get anywhere to get to Philadelphia, New York, Washington. I mean, you're basically stuck, you know. Um, and I was very fortunate to have a lot of other assistant professors who were hired at the same time as I was. So there were a lot of us, we were all friends, which was really fun, but I was single and I didn't want to date a student and there were no. And I wasn't going to date somebody in my department. That's just a recipe for disaster. So.

But even at 20, whatever you were, you were already wise enough to know that.

Yeah, a little bit maybe. Yeah, I wouldn't call me wise at that age, but anyways, not sure that I would say that I'm wise now, but. And so after, you know, I was spending probably 16 hours a day in the lab because it was my first year as an assistant professor and there's a lot to do. And I was also bitching and moaning to my friends that, you know, I hadn't had some sex and I don't know how many months and I was starting to become unhappy with my life. And I think at a certain point they just got tired of listening to me bitch and moan and said just do something about it then if you're unhappy. And so the first thing I did was I made friends with a sushi chef in town. And this is like a state college, Pennsylvania in the early 90s was the. There was like a pizza shop and a sub shop and actually a very good bagel shop and one good coffee shop and maybe one nice restaurant. I mean there was really. But there was the second son of a Japanese sushi chef who was not going to inherit the restaurant. And so he moved to Pennsylvania and was giving sushi lessons. So I met this guy, the sushi chef and we decided to throw a sushi party at the coffee shop. So we basically it was. The goal was to invite every eligible bachelor really within like a 20 mile radius. We had a totally fun time. I wore an awesome crushed velvet burgundy dress. It was beautiful dress. And I didn't meet any. I met a lot of new friends, but I did not meet anybody. So then I thought, okay, well maybe I'll try the personals ads, which I had never used before in my life. And, and I first tried the paper personals ads like in the newspaper, like in the newspaper that didn't work. And then a friend of mine said, oh, you know, there's this thing called net news so we're going. This is like 1992, maybe. So there was this anonymous. You could do it anonymously. So you would read. You could post or you could read ads and then respond to an address which was anonymous and that was yoked to somebody's real address. And there was always a lag because it was this, like a bulletin board sort of thing. So at first I read them over and I decided to respond to one or two. And, you know, it was interesting.

Sorry, this is not on the Internet.

Yeah, this is totally on the Internet.

But it takes. There's a delay of a couple days or whatever.

Yeah, right. It's 1992. There's no web, there's no pictures. The web doesn't exist. It's all done in ASCII format, sort of. And, you know, but the ratio. But the ratio of men to women was like 10 to 1. I mean, there were many more men because it was basically academics and the government. That was it. That was. No, I mean, I think AOL maybe was just starting to become popular, but. And so the first person I met told me that he was a. He was a scientist who worked for NASA. Impressive. Yeah. Anyways, it turned out that he didn't actually.

This is how they brag. As you elevate your. As opposed to saying you're taller than you are. You say, like your position is.

Yeah, and I actually. I would have been fine dating somebody who wasn't a scientist. It's just that they have. It's just that whoever I date has to just accept that I am and that I was pretty ambitious and was trying to make my career. And, you know, that's not. That's not. I think it's maybe more common now for men to maybe accept that in their female partners. But at that time, not so common.

Could be intimidating, I guess.

Yes, that has been said. And so then the next one I actually corresponded with, and we actually got to the point of talking on the phone and we had this really kind of funny conversation where we were chatting. And he said, he introduces the idea that he's really looking for a dominant woman. And I'm thinking, I'm a psychologist by training, so I'm thinking, oh, he means sex roles. I'm like, no, I'm very assertive. And I'm glad you think that. Anyways, long story short, that's not really what he meant.

Okay, got it.

Yeah. So. And I just, you know, that will just show you my level of naivete. Like, I was like, I didn't completely understand I was like, well, yeah, you know. No, at one point he asked me how I felt about him wearing my lingerie. And I was like, I don't even share my lingerie with my sister. Like, I don't share my lingerie with anybody, you know? No. The third one I interacted with was a banker who lived in Singapore. And that conversation didn't last very long because he made an analogy, I guess he made an analogy between me and a character in the Fountainhead, the woman who's, who's raped in the Fountainhead. And I was like, okay, that's not.

That'S not a good, that's not a good.

No, that's not a good one. Not that part, making it, not that scene. So then I, So then I was like, okay, you know what? I'm going to post my own ad. And so I did. I posted. Well, first I wrote my ad and then I, of course I checked it with my, my friends who were all also assistant professors. They're like my little Greek chorus. And then I posted it and I got something like, I don't know, 80 something responses in 24 hours. I mean, it was very.

Do you remember the pitch? Like how you, I guess, condensed yourself?

I don't remember it exactly, although Dan has it. But actually, for our 20th wedding anniversary, he took our exchanges and he printed them off and put them in a leather bound book for us to read, which was really sweet. Um, yeah, I think I was just really direct. Like, I'm almost 30, I'm a scientist. I'm not looking to, you know, I'm looking for something serious. And you know, but the thing is I, I forgot to say where my location was.

Yeah.

And my age.

Yeah.

Which I forgot. Yeah. So I got lots of, I mean, I will say. So I printed off all of the responses and I had all my friends over and we were, you know, had a big, I made a big pot of gumbo and we, we drank through several bottles of wine reading these responses. And I would say for the most part, they were really sweet, like earnest and genuine. As much as you could tell that somebody's being genuine. I mean, it seemed, you know, there were a couple of really funky ones, like, you know, this one couple who told me that I was their soulmate, the two of them, and they were looking for, you know, a third person. And I was like, okay. But mostly super seemed, seemed like super genuine people. And so I chose five men to start corresponding with. And I was corresponding with them and then about a week later, I get this Other email and okay. And then I post something the next day that said, okay, you know, thank you so much. And I'm gonna answered every person back. But then after that I said, okay, and I'm not gonna answer anymore, you know. Cause it was. They were still coming in and I couldn't, you know, I have a job and, you know, a house to take care of and stuff. So. And then about a week later, I get this other email and he says, you know, he just describes himself like, I'm this, I'm this, I'm this. I'm a chef, I'm a scientist, I'm a this, I'm a this. And so I emailed him back and I said, you know, you seem interesting. You can write me at my actual address if you want. Here's my address. I'm not really responding. I'm not really responding to other people anymore, but you seem interesting, you know, you can write to me if you want. And then he wrote to me and I wrote him back, and it was a nondescript kind of email. And I wrote him back and I said, thanks for responding. I'm really busy right now. I was in the middle of writing my first slate of grant applications, so I was really consumed and I said, I'll get back to you in a couple of days. And so I did. I waited a couple days until my grants were safe, grant applications safely out the door. And. And then I emailed him back, and then he emailed me. And then really across two days, we sent 100 emails and text only.

Was there pictures, any of that stuff?

Text only. Text only.

Wow.

And then so this was like a Thursday and a Friday. And then Friday he said, let's talk on the weekend on the phone. And I said, okay. And he wanted to talk Sunday night, and I had a date Sunday night. So I said, okay, sure, we can talk Sunday night. And then I was like, well, you know, I don't really want to cancel my date, so I'm just going to call him on Saturday. So I just called. I cold called him on Saturday. And a woman answered, oh, wow, that's not cool. Not cool. And so she says, you know, hello. And I say, oh, you know, stand there. And she said, sure. Can I ask who's calling? And I said, tell him it's Lisa. And she went, oh my God. Oh my God, I'm just a friend. I'm just a friend. I just need to tell you I'm just a friend. And I was like, yeah, this is adorable, right? She doesn't and then he gets on the phone, not, hi, nice to meet. The first thing he says to me, she's just a friend. So I was just so charmed, really, by the whole thing. So it was. It. It was Yom Kippur. It was the Jewish day of atonement that was ending, and they were baking cookies and going to a break fast. So people, you know, as, you know, fast all day, and then they go to a party and they break fast. So I thought, okay, I'll just, you know, cancel my date. So I did, and I stayed home and we talked for eight hours. And then the next night for six hours. And basically it just went on like that. And then by the end of the week, he flew to state college. And, you know, we had gone through this whole thing where I'd said, we're gonna take it slow. We're gonna get to know each other, you know, and then really by. I think we talked like two or three times. These, like, really long conversations. And then he said, I'm just gonna fly there. And then. So of course, there's. I don't even know that there were fax machines at that point. Maybe there were, but I don't think so. Anyway, so we decide we'll exchange pictures. And so he, you know, I take my photograph and I give it to my secretary, and I say to my secretary, fax this. I say that. Send this Priority mail.

Priority mail.

And he goes, okay, I'll send a priority mail and make priority mail. He's like, I know, priority mail, okay. And then so I get Dan's photograph in the mail, and, you know, it's him in shorts, and you can see that he's probably somewhere like the Bahamas or something like that. And it's like, cropped so clearly. What he's done is he's taken a photograph where, you know, he's in it with someone else who turned out to be his ex wife. So I'm thinking, well, this is awesome. You know, I've hit the jackpot. He's very appealing to me, very attractive. And then, you know, my photograph doesn't show up. And it doesn't show up. And, you know, so like, one day and then two days, and then, you know, he's. He's like, you know, you're. I said, well, I asked my secretary to send a priority. I mean, I don't know, you know, what he did. And he's like. I said. I'm like, well, you don't have to, you know, you don't have to come and he's like, no, no, no, I'm going to. I'm going to. You know, we've had, like, five dates, the equivalent of five dates, practically. And then. So he's supposed to fly on a Thursday or Friday, I can't remember. And I get a call, like, maybe an hour before his flight's supposed to leave, and he says hi. And I say. And there's just something in his voice, right? And I say. Because at this point, I think I've talked to him, like, for 25 hours. I don't know. And he says, hi. And I'm like, you got the picture? And he's like, yeah. And I'm like, you don't like it? And he's like, well. Well, I'm sure it's not. I'm sure it's your. I'm sure it's just not a good. You know, it's not. It's probably not your best. Oh, no, you know, you don't. You don't have to come. And he's like, no, no, no, I'm coming. And I'm like, no, you don't have to come. And he's like, no, no, I really want to. I'm. You know, I'm. I'm getting on the plane. I'm like, you don't have to get on the plane. He's like, no, I'm getting on the plane. And so I go down to my. I go. I'm in my office. This is happening, right? So I go downstairs to my. One of my closest friends, who's still actually one of my closest friends, who is one of my colleagues, and Kevin. And I say, kevin. And I go to Kevin. I go, kevin, Kevin, Kevin. He doesn't like the photograph. And Kevin's like, well, which photograph did you send? And I'm like, well, you know, the one where we're shooting pool. And he's like, you sent that photograph. That's a horrible photograph. I'm like, yeah, but it's the only one that I had that was like, where my hair was kind of similar to what it is now. And he's like, lisa, like, do I have to check everything for you? You should not have sent that.

But still, he flew over, so.

He flew.

Where from, by the way?

He was in graduate school at Amherst. Yeah, at UMass Amherst. So he flew, and I picked him up and at the airport, and he was happy. So whatever the concern was, was gone.

Yeah.

And I was dressed, you know, I. Carefully. Carefully dressed.

Were you nervous?

I was really, really nervous because I. I am not. I don't really believe in fate, and I don't really think there's only one person that you can be with. But I think, you know, people who. Some people are curvy, they're kind of complicated, and so the number of people who fit them is maybe less than.

I like it. Mathematically speaking. Yeah.

And so when I was going to pick him up at the airport, I was thinking, well, this could. I could be going to pick up the person I'm going to marry or not. I mean, like, I really. But I really, you know, like, our conversations were just very authentic and very moving, and we really connected, and I really felt like he understood me, actually, in a way that a lot of people don't. And.