Michael Malice: Freedom, Hope, and Happiness Amidst Chaos | Lex Fridman Podcast #150

The following is a conversation with Michael Malice, his second time on the podcast. He's an anarchist, political thinker, podcaster and author. He wrote Dear Reader, which is a book on North Korea and the New Right, a book on the various ideological movements at the fringe of American politics. He hosts a podcast called you're welcome spelled Y O U R and and in general, there's a lot of live shows on YouTube that are at times profoundly absurd and at other times absurdly profound, and always full of humor and wisdom. He is the Joker to my Batman and the caviar to my vodka. His masterful dance between dark humor and difficult, even dangerous ideas challenges me to think deeply about this world. And when that fails, at least smile and have a good laugh at the absurdity of it all. This episode has much of that. His outfit, for example, the exact inverse of mine with a white suit and a black shirt, is just one example of that of the humor, trolling and brilliance that is Michael Malice. Quick mention of our sponsors, netsuite, business management software, athletic greens all in one nutrition drink, sun basket, meal delivery service and cash app. So the choice is success, health, food or money. Choose wisely, my friends, and if you wish, click the sponsor links below to get a discount and to support this podcast. As a side note, let me say that Michael is in many ways a man of radical ideas, but also a man with kindness in his heart. Those two things are great ingredients for a fascinating conversation. I hope to have several such people on this podcast this upcoming year who also have radical ideas about politics, science, technology and life at times. Often, perhaps, I might fail at asking the challenging questions that should be asked, but I will try my best to do so and hope to keep improving every time. Mostly, I come to these conversations with an open mind and with love. Unfortunately, that kind of approach can be taken advantage of in many ways. It can be used by reporters or just people online later to highlight how or why I'm ignorant or worse. I'm generally not a good human being. In the context of this, I have two options. I could either be cautious and afraid, or second, be kind, thoughtful and fearless. I choose the latter, hopefully, while still being open, fragile and empathetic. Again, I strive to be like the main character of the Idiot by Dostoevsky. That's my New Year's resolution. Be kind and do difficult things, difficult conversations, difficult research projects, and difficult entrepreneurial adventures. If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review it on Apple Podcasts, follow on Spotify, support it on Patreon, or connect with Me on Twitter, lexfriedman. And now here's my conversation with Michael Malice. Knock knock.

You're stealing my bit. I'll kill your family.

That's not how knock knock joke works. Knock knock, Michael.

You don't do knock knock jokes with Russians. Because if we have knock at the door, turn down the tv, you got to sit quiet, hope they go away. You don't do that back in the motherland. You know this.

It's triggering.

Who's there?

I can't even do it now. Knock knock.

Who's there?

Leon.

Leon who?

Leon me. When you're not strong, Michael.

Well, that will never happen.

I stole elegantly, eloquently that joke from you.

The lie detector term. That was a lie. Eloquently and eloquently.

Yeah. You crossed it on a sheet of paper. That means it's real. The reason I bring it up is because you had the guts, the brilliance to. To do a knock knock joke not once, but three times with Alex Jones.

I think it was like six. I had a runner.

Okay, maybe I just. They started to sort of meld together in this beautiful art form that you've created, which is like these kind, loving knock knock jokes with Alex Jones. So you got the chance to meet him and talk with him twice with Tim Pool in long form conversation. What was it like talking to Alex Jones, both on the deep, philosophical, intellectual level and staring the man in his eyes and doing a knock knock joke about Olive. Knock, knock. Who's there? Olive. I love you, Alex.

I love you. Well, there's a lot to explain.

Where do you start?

I've been on his show Infowars a few times when I was researching my book. Then you write. So I had had conversations with him before. One of the things that I appreciate about Alex is he is a lot more self aware than people think and has a good sense of humor. And I also like a good twist ending. So if you set people up and all these jokes are these kind of vapid, you know, I'll leave you jokes, and the last one's about Building seven. They're not gonna see that one coming, nor will he see that one coming. I even had another one about Sandy Hook, which I didn't do on the air because he was being, like, a good sport. So I didn't. But that was the dagger that was kind of behind my back, if necessary. But it was a good mechanism toward. I like it when things work on several levels. It was also a good mechanism to keep kind of the conversation guarded. And this every so often this is kind of hitting the control alt del and bringing it down to a certain point of calmness.

What about the love thing? I mean, you're saying that that was a build up to the dagger, but it was also somehow really refreshing to get that little jolt, like that pause. You don't get that in conversations often. Like, I'm a huge fan of Rogan and he'll have a three hour conversation, but at some point just pause and be like, I love you, man. Like it's in the cheesiest way possible. Because that seems to be. It somehow hits the hardest then. I don't know, I don't know. You didn't intend it that way. But with Alex Jones, to sit there and to say I love you, that was like that. I just haven't never heard that before. And so it struck me as like, not just funny for what you're doing, but just like, whoa. We just took. Because conversations are all about like this ranting, especially with Alex Jones, just like ranting about this or that, this, this part of the world, like, can you believe this shit? That kind of thing. But like to pause and be like, this is awesome. I don't know if you felt that.

Way, but, oh, I definitely felt that way. So it was actually very fun. I'll give you the backstory of how that happened. It was silly because Tim calls me up and there's this expression in marketing. Don't go past the sale, right? So if you're trying to sell someone a car and it's got this feature, this feature and that feature, and they're like, you know what? I'm going to buy the car. If you keep talking, you can only make them lose the sale. You just get them to sign and get, get out of Dodge. So Tim calls me up and he goes, okay, here's what we're thinking. This is top secret. Alex is going to be on the show. We want you on as well. And I've never said yes to anything as quickly in my life. And then he keeps talking and I'm like, tim, this. You don't have to sell it. I interrupted him. I go, you don't have to sell it.

Why you, by the way?

I think because I am kind of an agent of chaos and Alex is, in his own way, an agent of chaos. And what provides an opportunity in this kind of new media space that you and I travel in, it's the kind of things where none of us three, you know, as we said on the show, knew what it would be like if you know, within certain parameters, what, you know, Megyn Kelly or Wolf Blitzer or any of these corporate figures are gonna be like in a conversation to some extent. None of us had any idea. I knew they didn't know I was bringing knocking up jokes. So that was kind of what was. So I said at one point, I'm kind of envious of the audience because there's so many exciting things that are happening and that the Internet and podcasting provides people an opportunity to do that. It was great.

Yeah. That was the greatest pairing with Alex Jones that I've ever seen by far. So, like, okay, thank you. So I immediately knew. Now this isn't a knock on Tim, but I don't even know if Tim was prepared.

Tim was not prepared for this couple. How could he be prepared?

Well, so, I mean, I don't know if Tim is used to that. I think Joe Rogan is more equipped, prepared for the chaos. Just the years he's been in it. Like, I immediately thought this is the right pairing for Joe Rogan because Alex Jones has been on Joe Rogan a few times. Three times. My favorite so far was with Tim Dillon.

Right? Yeah.

But Tim was clearly Tim Dylan was also kind of a genius in his own right, but he was kind of a fan and he was bet and he was stepping away. He was almost like in awe of Alex Jones, where you were both. You were in awe of the experience that's being created and at the same time fearlessly just trolling the situation. I mean, to do a knock, knock joke to stop. I mean, that just shows that you're in control of the experience. No, you're like riding the experience. That immediately was like, this needs to be on Rogan. So I hope that happens as well. You're on your own, of course, on Rogan, but just you. That's an experience. That's the whatever. This gotta be a good name for it. Like Jimi Hendrix Experience. There's the mic on Alex, because that was a band. It's taken. Well, I don't know how many years you can. You can restart the experience because I feel.

Sorry interrupt you. I feel a very big responsibility, especially in 2020, to provide fun and something cool and something unique that hasn't been done before for the audience. I think this has been a very rough year on our audiences psychologically and in other aspects of their lives. So I feel if I'm going to be there, I'm going to put on a show and it's also going to be great because it also alienates the People you don't want. Right. So there's a lot of people who sit there and be like, oh, he's telling people who are too cool for school, where they're like, oh, he's telling knock, knock jokes. This is stupid. I'm like, good. If you have an issue with having eaten cotton candy or doing a puzzle with a kid or without it, you know, by yourself, that's on you. And it's something very. Something I think is the enemy is cynicism. And this idea that, like, oh, this is too silly, and meets me, it's like we need that kind of childlike aspect in our lives. I think it's something we could use more of. It's very much an aspect of our media culture that to kind of have. Be condemnatory about that or to do it in a certain very corporate, fake way. So it is something I encourage a lot. Something I enjoy doing. And again, like, the first time I was on Tim, I had a propeller beanie on, you know, with the motorized. And a lot of people were like, I can't take anyone seriously who dresses like this. I go, good. If you judge someone's ideas by how they appear instead of the ideas themselves, you're not someone I want on my team.

Are we going to address the outfit you're wearing?

We got dresses.

Sure. You know, for those who are colorblind, Michael's wearing the. Or just listening to this, Michael's wearing the exact opposite. The inverse from. From another dimension outfit, which is a white suit and black shirt. It's so genius. Okay, so you should see the next.

Two looks I've planned.

Oh, no.

Yeah, they're great. Well, obviously, this relationship's gonna end today.

It's over.

I'll put them on insta.

Okay. Is there some deep philosophy to the humor? Is this goes to our trolling discussion. Is there some. Is there, like, chapters to this genius, or is this just what makes you smile in the morning?

I mean, I think you're honestly, in this case, using the word genius a little loosely. I don't think this is particularly genius, but I do think it is fun. It is exuberant, it is joyous. I think the bigger my audience has gotten and the more I actually communicate with fans, I do feel it kind of kicks in these paternal, Maternal instincts, which is very, very odd. I did not expect to have them.

What do you mean? Who's the dad?

I'm the dad. And the mom. I remember. And it may have been similar for you. I'm curious to hear it. For young Smart, like ambitious men. Like 24 to 27 for me was a very rough period because that's the window where a lot of people get married and they kind of check out. And if you're very much kind of finding your own road, you don't know what's happening. No one's in a position to really guide you or help you. And it's tough. It's a very tough window. And, and what I'm finding now is having these kids who are in that position. But now instead of them stumbling along, for some of them, I'm the one who could be like, no, no, no, no, it's not you, it's everybody else. And to be able to give them that semblance of feeling seen, to use a cliched expression, to feel normal and that, no, no, you're the heroes here. They're the background noise. It's just really very flattering and humbling to be in that position.

You have many minds, right? There's the thoughtful kind. Michael. There's like, I'm going to burn down the powerful. Yeah. Michael.

Yeah.

And then there's like, I'm going to have this just light hearted trolling of the world.

Yeah.

Which. And which of those are most important to the 24 to the 27 demographic?

I think it is the combination. You know, it's like if you're making a meal, you know, chicken Kiev, you need the chicken, you need the ham, you need the butter sauce. Because I think people, when you're young, you need to see someone who's fought the fight for you and who's won. So it's very easy to be defeatist.

So. So this is what winning looks like.

Well, no, this is not. This is most assuredly what winning does not look like. But in my normal clothes, a little bit more.

This is a good time to mention that clothes wise, you're wearing sheath underwear and people should buy sheath underwear. Use code malice20.

If you go to sheathunderwear.com, use promo code malice20. What I love about the why I'm glad to promote the product and wear it is it's the most comfortable underwear I've ever worn. And you have a separate pouch for both parts of your genitals.

That's what you. I thought there was like a punchline coming. No, it's a very nice aspect of the product.

Yeah. But I think what. Here's something else just goes back to what we were just talking about. There are so many. And this is going to segue into this. There are so many small companies who've been devastated this year. We have not seen a sustained attack on mom and pop shops like we've seen in 2020, who are innovators and making something happen. And when you're just like one dude who's producing a product, they're a sponsor of mine. I'm happy to. First of all, it's funny that I'm pitching underwear, but. Haha, pitching. But it's also something I enjoy.

And also, you said small business.

Yeah, yeah. It's microscopic, like a thimble. So this isn't a sponsor of mine, but this is a good segue. So this is Russians. We celebrate New Year's Novum Godum. We have died Moroz. He comes down, puts a present under your pillow. So this is a company called JL Lawson. He's a fan of yours. He's a metal worker and he said, can I give you something to give to Lex? I have one of his worry coins. I'll tell you what it is. He's not a sponsor. This is not. I'm not getting paid for this. So what a worry coin is, I carry around in my butt. If you have raw denim, it's great because it brings you fades. So you carry it around with you all the time. It says worrying. It's like paying a debt. You don't. Oh, right. And I carry this around and now it's been like a year. Next time you're worrying, and this is good advice, if you don't have a worry coin, go think about 10 years ago and what you were worried about then. And then think about, did any of those things pan out? And some of them did, but you were able to handle it. And that's a good way to maintain perspective. So J.L. lawson's the company. He sent me this present. I said, let me give it to Lex on air. So enjoy.

Should I also open it on you? Yeah. J.L. lawson and CO2 Lex from Anthony.

Yeah. And I said, make something mathematical for Lex. I don't even know what's in there.

You don't know what's in there? No.

And it got through us.

TSA could be a bomb.

It could be just like this episode. Make sure you unwrap it close to Mike because it drives people crazy. That's really the best part.

I mean. Or is this what unboxing video looks like?

I think so.

This conversation is going to be a big hit on the Internet.

The unboxing community.

I need to have an excited look on my face to make sure the Reaction video. It should be an unboxing and a reaction video.

Like streaming reacts. It's another box. It's just a series of boxes.

Lex, big fan. Since hearing you on Rogan months ago. Most of your guests are over my head, but still enjoyable.

Aw.

Like this episode? Michael was kind enough to want to share my work with you. Keep doing what you do, Anthony Lawson. Thanks, Anthony.

There's a lot in there. What is in there? Give me some. I'll open some.

Okay. All right. Show it to the camera and then make sure you look excited or not or disappointed.

No, this is cool. This is a worry coin, like I was showing you.

Oh, nice.

So you hold it in your hand and when you can do this with your thumb. If people are. Have anxiety or whatever, There's a lot.

Of cool stuff in here. Fibonacci coin.

Oh, see, yeah, that's the math stuff.

That's really awesome. This is really cool.

Wait, you got a big one laying there too.

That's what she said. I'm telling you, last time you offended me, saying I don't have humor.

So I.

The spin tray. Micro brass and copper. Bronze. By the way, the packaging is epic.

I think that's his top. He makes tops.

Cool.

Yeah, you spin it in there and it's a.

Two different bronze and copper.

I think he's the only one who makes these machined tops.

These sit in here, I guess.

Yeah, but you could spin them in that. That section.

Got it. Cool. Where's the. Where's the worry thing?

Here's the worry coin.

Anyway, I wasn't listening. What were you worried about 10 years ago?

10 years ago, 2010. What would I have been worried about then?

The government?

No, that's not a worry.

What was the North Korea book? I apologize.

That came out in 2014. I went there in 2012. Came out in January 2014. It still pays my rent with the royalties.

The North Korea book?

Yeah. This is why it's so much better.

I gotta talk to you about self publishing because you brought that up.

The next book's also going to be self published.

Can we talk about self publishing? What's the whole idea of publishing like having a publisher and an agent? There's a bunch of people have been reaching out to me, trying to get me to write a book, which is ridiculous.

Why?

There's people who are brilliant folks like you, like Jordan Peterson, that I think have a lot of knowledge to share with the world. I think what I feel I can contribute to the world in terms of impact is to build something okay. Meaning like engineering stuff.

Okay.

Like a book.

Book has to be engineered. And I'm not using that loosely. You have to engineer a book.

No, for sure. What I mean is like, literally a product with programming and artificial intelligence. I want to build a company. I want to. Because I have a few ideas that I feel I'm equipped. And it has to do with your intuition about the way you can build a better world. You individually, like, what can you add to the world? That's a positive thing. And for me, I feel like the maximal thing I can add to the world is at least to attempt to build products that would add more love in the world. And like, so I want to focus on that. The danger of the book for me, or any kind of writing and even this podcast is a little bit dangerous for me, is like, it's fun, for sure.

It's.

It's. It's fun. It's like, it takes you into this place where you start thinking about the world. You start enjoying and playing with ideas. You start. And like just your book on a dear reader, but also the new. Right. Like, clearly you and I probably think similarly in the sense that you did a lot of work.

Yes. This next book is killing me.

Yeah. As you mentioned, often it's clear, like on your YouTube channel, which I'm a fan of you, often it just comes out, like you mentioned all of these books that you're reading. It just comes through you, that you're suffering through this and you've. It changes you. And it's clear that you're thinking deeply about the world because of this book. And I feel like if you do that, that's like, when I was. When I first came to this country, I read the book the Giver. I need to read it again. It's like it. The red pill thing is it changes you in where you can never be the same person again. I feel about a book in that same way. The moment you write a book, of course, it depends on the book. I could also just write, like in my field, a very technical book.

No, that's a terrible idea.

Yes. But that, that's okay. That doesn't really change you. That's just like sharing information, but like something where you're like, how do I think about this world? Can you just leave that behind you?

I get it, dude. It's being pregnant. It never escapes your brain. I'm telling you. You're absolutely right.

Yeah. I don't know. It does seem to change it. But the reason I bring that up is because there's this whole industry of people that seem to not really contribute much to the publication process, but they make themselves seem necessary for if you want to be in the New York Times bestseller list kind of thing. But also just being reputable.

Yeah.

Which is. I'm allergic to that whole concept, but it does. Do you think it's possible to be on the New York Times bestseller list and be a reputable author and still be self published?

Not what you would want to do. Like, people like Mark Sisson, I think is his name. He wrote like the Primal Blueprint. So, like, if I'm getting the names correct, he's the first Paleo guy. Right. So he's. He self published it. It sold gangbusters. But that would be on their health chart, I believe. And it's a little bit of a different situation. You would be reaching much more for the mainstream. You'd be giving up a lot if you go through a publisher, especially financially. But yeah, you are not going to have the cred because the publishing is a cartel. The New York Times is part of this cartel. And if you don't publish within this cartel, they will do what they can, as any cartel has to, by necessity, of being cartel, to pretend you don't exist. So they will. I was, I think, the first one to have an hour on book TV for Dear Reader because that was a Kickstarter book. But this is something that people do.

Reader was a Kickstarter book. Yeah.

This is something people would have to be aware of. So you would be giving up a lot, but you'd also be giving a lot to work with a publisher because you're losing like a year and a half of your life because they're glacial and they don't care.

Well, that's my only problem. It's not the money. I mean, the money is whatever percent they take. 10, 20, 30, 50%, they're taking a huge chunk.

So if I sell a book through St. Martin's it's a dollar. If I sell a book through Amazon, which is Dear reader, that's $6. So that's what, 87%. It's something crazy.

But for me, what bothers me isn't the money that for me personally, what bothers me is incompetence. Like whenever I go to the DMV or something like that.

Can I interrupt you?

Yeah.

Let's talk in confidence.

Yeah.

New, right? Comes out last year.

Yes.

I get on Rogan, get on Ruben, I call them. And I said, I got on these shows. Is there money in the budget? For travel. And they say, we don't have that budget. Fine.

By the way, you got on those shows with no help from them, correct?

Oh, yeah. That's not even a question. The reason they would want you to do a book is because they know you could get. The only reason people get book deals nowadays, literally, is because they know that person can market their own book. That's the only way. And I got in Ruben, I got in Rogan, and they go and have the money for the budget for travel, which is fair. They can do Skype. They told me this in writing and.

I'm like, okay, they can financially cover Skype.

No, but it's like, hey, Joe. Yeah, we don't have the budget, but you're going to do Skype. Hello. Hello. So there is another friend of mine was on a show on CNBC with Nassim Taleb, and they said Nassim wants a copy of the book. And they're like, oh, yeah, it's like four o' clock on Friday, so we're closed.

So.

And he's like, he went there, picked it up and walked it the two blocks. So there is. It's almost cartoonish. And it's not incompetence, it's past that. It's something almost. You can't really believe that. I've had two friends who have been literally rendered suicidal because this was such a huge opportunity for them. And it was like watching their kid get beaten in front of them. And I had to talk them off the ledge. So people do not appreciate how bad. Here's another example.

The apathy of bureaucracy. Something like that.

I did this book, Concierge Confidential. There's a typo in the first chapter. It ends with, I'm about to T o O. They didn't fix it for the paperback. Who cares? It's just like, well, okay, yeah, great book, by the way. NPR gave it one of the books of the year, so that was cool.

So why participate in this?

Because otherwise New York Times is going to pretend you don't exist. Getting booked on some shows might be more difficult, although I think that's collapsing in real time. You're not going to get reviewed necessarily in places like PW or some others.

So the new book you're working on, do you have a title yet or.

The White Pill.

The White Pill. Are you self publishing that?

Oh, yeah, for sure.

And what's the thinking behind that? Just because you already have a huge following and a big platform and it's.

Six times the cash. If I finish the book In December. I could have it out in February. If I finish the book in December with the publisher, it's going to be out in December at the earliest, 2021. Why am I giving up 10 months of my life?

Well, this is the big one. Do you have any leverage? Like, do. Do authors have leverage to say f you. Like, can you just say.

What do you mean?

Just look. Meaning, like, I want to release this book in two months?

Oh, no, no. I mean, you'll have a contract and then your agent can fight it. But they don't have the Bureau. They don't have the capacity to rush things through.

Yeah, I guess if the. Because I've heard, like, big authors. I don't know, Sam Harris, all those folks talk about, like, they've accepted it. Actually. They've accepted. They're like, yeah, it takes a long time to.

I'm not accepting it.

But you. But you're kind of implying that a human being like me should.

Like I'm saying, these are your options. Right?

So I just. I just hate it. I hate the waiting. Because it's incompetence. It's not that. It's not necessarily the way. If I knew it wasn't, you know, if it was the kind of people that are up at 2am at night on a Friday, and they love what you're doing and they're helping create something special. That's the sense I get with some of the Netflix folks, for example, that work with people. I just. I don't know anything about this world, but you get like, Netflix folks who, who help with shows. You could tell that they're obsessed with those shows.

Yeah, yeah. You're not getting publishing if you hand. Like I hand in the book in. I think it was July. I didn't hear anything from my editor until December.

Well, can we actually talk about the suffering?

Sure.

The darkest parts of writing a book. So the. Let's. Let's go to the full Michael Malice, Stephen King mode of what are the darkest moments of writing this book and what is it? Maybe start the white pill. What's the idea? What's the hope? And what are your darkest moments around writing this book?

So people are familiar with the red pill and the blue pill. They're from the Matrix. The red pill is the idea that what is presented as fact by the corporate press, entertainment industry is, in fact, a carefully constructed narrative designed to keep some very unpleasant people in power and everyone else under control. And one of my expressions is, you take one red pill, not the whole bottle.

Yes.

Because at A certain point you think everything's a lie and then you're. You're kind of no capacity for distinguishing truths.

You're full of good one liners.

Well, thank you. Yeah, I'm full of something, that's for sure. And what I saw in this space is a lot of these red pilled people got very disheartened and cynical. And one of my big heroes is Albert Camus. And he said the worst thing as cynicism. And that led something called the black pill, which is the idea that, you know, it's all. It's just, we're waiting for the end. It's hopeless. And I don't see it that way at all. And I'm like, all right, I have to address this. And not just with some kind of cheerleading. Everything's gonna be great, guys. Here is why I am positive. And not that I'm positive the good guys are going to win, but I'm positive the good guys can win. And that's all you need. Because if your God forbid kid is kidnapped and there's a 10% chance that you can save them, you're not going to be like, well, I don't like those odds. This is your country, this is your values, this is your family. And I think it's much more than 10%. And even if you lose, you will take pride in that. You did everything in your power to win.

So is there a good definition of good guys in the sense that the.

Ones who were white.

There's layers to this. You're like modern day Shakespeare. Is there a danger in thinking Adolf Hitler was probably pretty confident that he led a group of good guys.

Listen, if Hitler did anything wrong, why isn't he in jail? My Czech friend thought of that joke, actually. He says in his accent, he goes, if Hitler's so bad, why isn't he in the jail?

That's a good point. He's probably still alive, right?

And look. Yeah, hopefully.

Oh boy. Two of the three people listening to this are very upset right now. What were you even talking about? Oh, how do you know what is good?

There's lots of standards of good. But if you're. For me to be a good guy is if you want to leave the world, a little bit better than you found it. That to me is the definition of a good guy. And I think there are many people, that's not their motivation at all.

It's about your motivation.

Well, it's also about if your motivation is at all correlated to reality. No one thinks we're the bad Guys, that's correct. But are you taking steps to check your motivations and also take a certain amount of humility? Because if you're going to start interfering with other people's lives, you really better be sure you know what you're talking about.

The control of others. If you do have centralized control or then you kind of, you become a leader of a group, you better know, you better do so humbly and cautiously.

And also have steam valves. Right. So if in case things go wrong, let's have. I'm sure this is a lot happening with AI, whatever works with computers. Like, okay, if something goes wrong here, how do we have a workaround to make sure it doesn't cause everything to collapse?

Yeah, the going wrong thing, I mean the whole, the feedback mechanism.

Yeah.

Like, I wonder if people in Congress think that things are really wrong.

It's working for them.

Are you sure? Are you sure?

Because I'm not sure.

Because I, I'd like to believe that the people that at least when they got into politics, politics actually wanted. Some of it is ego, but some of it is like wanting to be the kind of person that builds a better world.

Sure. I also think it's a, it's diverse, some who are going to have different motivations than others.

But like, once you're in the system and trying to build a better world, how do you know that it's not working? Like, how do you take the basic feedback mechanisms and like, and actually productively change? I mean, that's what it means to be a good guy is like, something is wrong here. And this, that's why I like the Elon Musk, like, think from first principles, like, wait, wait, wait. Okay, let's ask the big question. Like, can this be one? Is this working at all? Like, the way we're solving this particular problem of government? Is this working at all? And then like stepping away and saying like, as opposed to modifying this bill or that bill or like this little strategy, like increase the tax by this much or decrease the tax by this much. Like, why do we have a democracy at all? Or why do we have any kind of representative democracy? Shouldn't it be a pure democracy? Or why do we have states, like representation of states and federal government and so on. Why do we have this kind of separation of powers, this different. Why, why don't have term limits or not, like big things like, how do you actually make that happen? And is that what it means to be a good guy? It's like taking big revolutionary steps as opposed to incremental steps.

Well, I don't know that you could be a politician to be a good guy, to be analyst. And let me give you a counterexample. Someone who you can tell is not being a good guy. Joe Biden said he was. He regards the Iraq war as a mistake. Okay. You and I have made mistakes in our lives. I'm sure none of our mistakes have caused tens of thousands of people to die. Let's put some.

Speak for yourself.

That's fair. Okay, I'll take that. I don't build the kill bots. If I were a chef, let's take it out of politics. And in my restaurant, somehow, accidentally, someone ate something and they died. A. I would feel horrible. But more importantly, I would be like, we need to look through this system and figure out how it got to the point where someone lost their life, because that can never happen again. And we need to figure out step by step. It's. There's. I'm not a gun person, but there's like this checklist of, like, if you're holding a gun, there's five things to do, and even if you get two wrong, you're going to be. It's like assume every gun is loaded, only pointed at something that you want to kill. And there's like, three other things. And it's like to make sure that nothing goes wrong. So if I'm not chef, and I would have to not only feel guilt, but take preventative action to make sure this has no possibility of happening again. If you look at the staff he's putting in, it's the same warmongers that would have advised him to get into the Iraq war on the first time. That, to me, is not a good guy. That, to me, is someone who does not feel remorse for their responsibility in killing. Not only many Americans, but some of us think that dead Iraqis isn't necessarily ideal either.

Okay, let's talk a bit about war. Maybe you can also correct me on something. The first time I found myself into Barack Obama was. I don't know how many years ago this was, but when I maybe heard a speech of his about him speaking out against the war.

Yeah.

And him, I think it's on record saying he was against the war before it was happening now, but he wasn't.

In Senate at the time. So it was very easy for him to say this.

But see, like, people say that. People say that. People say, like, it was easy and it was. Some people say it's like, strategically the wise thing to do, given some kind of calculus, whatever. But I to this day give him. That's the reason I've always given him props in my mind, like, this is a man of character he makes. I also personally really value great speeches. I think speeches are really important for leaders because they inspire the world. It's like one of the most best things you can contribute to the world is great through intellect. Mold ideas in a way that's communicable to a huge number of people.

Yes. It's better to persuade than to force in every instance.

That's where I disagree with Chomsky. He said, like, if you're Chomsky's whole idea was that, like, if you're really eloquent speaker, that means your ideas aren't that good.

That's nonsense.

Yeah. So I think that's a way for him to describe, like, I speak in a very boring way. Maybe that's the pitch for this podcast. I speak boring so that the ideas are the things you value. And it's also useful to go to sleep. But the. That's. That's why I really liked Obama throughout his life and still do. But when I first, like, saw this is. For some reason you can disagree. I thought he's a man of character. It's the. When most politicians, most people who are trying to calculate and rise in power, I think were for the war or too afraid to be against the war.

Yeah.

That's why I liked Bernie Sanders and that's why I liked, like in the early days of Obama for speaking out against the war and not like in this weird activist way. Not weird, but not. Not saying I'm an activist this is. But like just saying the common sense thing and being brave enough to say the common sense thing without, like having a big sign and saying I'm going to be the anti war candidate or something like that, but just saying this is not a good idea.

Yeah. And I think it's. It's for those of us who are old enough to remember, it's pretty despicable what happened with Tulsi in 2020. She was the biggest anti war candidate and she was marginalized within her own party, which I guess you can make sense. She's just a congresswoman from Hawaii, but the corporate press did everything in their power to diminish her and pretend she didn't existed. And for those of us who remember where 12 years prior, when George W. Bush had the Republican National Convention in New York and it was the biggest protest in history, and the Iraq war led to democratic landslides in 2006 and 2008. To have that completely not part of the Democratic Party in 2020 is both shocking and reprehensible.

Hey, Michael.

Is it. You don't have to say, hey, Michael. You just say, knock, knock.

No, it's not a knock, knock.

Oh, okay.

Hey, Losha, what did the volcano say to its true love?

What?

I love you.

These jokes are better when you know how to speak English.

It was actually in Russian. I did Google Translate. Okay, back to your book and the suffering. You somehow turned it positive. And as one who's the representative of the black pill in this conversation, what are some of the darker moments? What are some of the hardest challenges of putting together this book? The white pill.

Content, content, content. So if I'm having a page about Reagan taking on Gerald Ford in the 1976 presidential primaries, I'm going to have to read like, 20. And it's the thing. There'll be sometimes I'll remember some quotes somewhere, and then I have to spend an hour trying to find it because I want it to be as dense with information as possible.

How do you structure the main philosophical ideas you want to convey? Is that already planned out?

No, the book changed entirely from its conception. So my buddy Ryan Holiday had a series of books, still does, where he takes the ideas of the Stoics and he applies them to contemporary terms. He has this whole cottage industry that he's doing very well with. And I'd asked him years ago if I could do that with Camus. He's like, sure, go for it. And I was going to rework Camus, the Myth of Sisyphus. And I read it recently, I reread it, and this wasn't the book I remembered at all. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to write the book that I remembered. But the more I was writing it, one of the things I always yell at conservatives about, and there's a long list, is they don't talk about the great victory of conservatism, which was the winning of the Cold War, without firing a shot. And I said, you can't expect the New York Times to tell this story because the blood is on their hands. And I'm like, well, Michael, instead of complaining about it, why don't you do it? Why don't you talk? That is a great example of the good guys winning over the bad guys. And that's become a. The victory is beautiful. But also pointing out to people, when people are like, oh, things are worse than they've ever been, they don't appreciate how bad things were. In the 30s, what Stalin was doing overseas and how people in the west were advocating to bring that here. So that's kind of pointing out how bad things were and how good they became. And you don't have to be a Republican or conservative to be delighted at the collapse of totalitarianism and the peaceful liberation of half the world.

So that's a picture of the good guys winning.

Oh, yeah.

Well, how does that connect to Sisyphus and maybe to speak deeper to life and whatever the hell this thing is, which is what I remember the myth of Sisyphus being about. So where does the threat of Camus sort of lie in the work that you're doing?

So the myth of Sisyphus, which I had remembered incorrectly, is actually just a five, like seven. Five to seven page, like coda to the whole book at the very end. Like, you only need to read that little essay called the Myth of Sisyphus. The broader work is about Camus concept of the absurd and the absurd man within literature. And he goes, and it's just like, I don't really care about this character in Dostoevsky and all this other stuff that you're talking about. It's of no relevance. But the myth of Sisyphus, the myth itself, not the book or the essay of his, is this Greek character. And Sisyphus is forced in hell to roll a rock up a hill for eternity. At the very last moment, the rock falls away and Camus takeaway from the story is that we must imagine Sisyphus happy. And there's several interpretations of this, but one is, once you accept that you are living an absurdist existence, once you own your reality, it loses its bite. And you can start with that as your kind of baseline.

And bite is suffering and hopelessness.

So I think when people look at how much ridiculousness is happening in America and it's escalating, you can either think, oh, all is lost, or you can. And I think you and I have lived our lives like this. You can live life more like a surfer, whereas you're never going to control the ocean, but you can sure enjoy that ride and stop. If you're trying to control the waves, yeah, you're done. But if you're like, all right, I've got my board, I'm going to see where this takes me. Surfing, from what I understand, is a pretty fun activity and also sometimes dangerous. But you'd have to ask Tulsi about that.

So we were offline talking about stalling and the evils of the Soviet regime. Yeah, one of the things I mentioned, I watched the movie Mr. Jones, but it's about the 1930s called the. More the. What would you say? The torture of the Ukrainian people. Yeah, by Stalin. One interesting thing to me that I'd love to hear your opinion about is the role of journalism in all of this and also about 1930s Germany. So what's the role of journalists and intellectuals in a time when trouble is brewing? But it requires a really sort of brave and deep thinking to understand that trouble is brewing. Like if you were a journalist or if you were just like an intellectual, a thinker, sure, but also a voice in the space of public discourse. What would you do in 1930s about Stalin, about Heather Moore? And what would you do about Nazi Germany in 1937, 1938?

So that's really funny that you asked that because currently how the book is structured, it's like books often follow a three act structure. Right. So Act 3 is the 80s, Act 1 is the 30s, and Act 2 is going to be like, all right, let's suppose you were in the 30s. Are you just going to give up? Are you just going to be like, well, we're screwed. And you'd be right to say things are going to be very bad for a long time, or are you going to be one of those few who are like, we're going to do something about this and we're going to go down swinging. There are two books I can recommend which are just masterpieces that are written by women, that just historians that are just superb. There's a book called Beyond Belief by Deborah Lipstadt. She talks about the rise of Nazi Germany as seen through the press. And what was amazing, and she does a great job empathizing with the press and understand their perspective is we remember. And Chamberlain gets a bad rap, Neville Chamberlain, for kind of appeasing Hitler. Because not that long ago they had the Great War, they had World War I, and they had the carnage that the earth had never seen before. And when you had people made out of meat meeting industrial machines and plastic surgery was invented, as a consequence of this, they're coming back mangled and disfigured, and for what? And this was a world where the Kaiser was the most evil person who ever lived. And we all had the western propaganda about the Hun and all the rapes and all this barbarism and blah, blah, blah. So not that long later when you're hearing all this propaganda which was factual about Hitler, it's like, we heard this, we heard this 20 years ago. This was all Lies. Give us a break. And she has all the quotes from the different agencies and how they addressed it. Plus they had very limited information. It's not like Nazi Germany was an open society where reporters can walk around. And they were under a lot of pressure as well, you know, in those areas.

And Hitler himself was pretty good at. He let some stuff slip, but usually he made it seem like he wants peace, he wants world peace.

This was amazing. They were making the argument that because all these Jews were being beaten up on the street, this proved this was the hot take of the day, that Hitler was weak. Because since Hitler's a statesman and he can't control these hooligans, that shows his control and power is tenuous. And this is all going to go.

Away, by the way. I mean, Hitler thought that, too. He was kind of afraid of the bronchurts or whatever. He was afraid of these hooligans a little bit. They were useful to him, but at a certain point, yeah, they can get in the way. That's why he wanted to get control of the military, the army, their regiment. Like, if you want to take over the world, you can't do it with hooligans.

Right.

You have to do it with an actual army.

And then you had Kristallnacht, which was a nationwide pogrom. And then all the news agencies universally were like, oh, crap. We were. We. We got this wrong. And the condemnation was universal. So that book traces the West's reaction to what's going on there and including the reaction to the incipient Holocaust as people being, you know, what they knew, when did they know? There was not ambiguity about people. I think there's this myth that she dispels that they didn't know the Holocaust was happening or they didn't care. They were aware, but they were already at war with Nazi Germany. Like, literally. What else could they do at that point to rescue all these Jews? So that's a superb book. And Anne Applebaum, I think the book is called Red Famine, came out fairly recently. And she brings the receipts and she's a. You know, this is something I really hate with the binary thinkers, where people think, oh, you know, if you're a Democrat, you're basically a communist. They call Joe Biden a Marxist. It's just like, you know, she's a hard lefty, she has tds. But this book just systemically lays out what Stalin did.

By the way, I'm triggered by the binary thinkers. And for those who don't know, TDS0011 is Trump Derangement Syndrome.

Yes. So they forced the starvation of this entire population. And not only that, it's like they knew if you weren't starving by looking at you, that you were hiding food. So they'd come back to your house at night and break your fingers in the door or burn down your house. And now you're on the street without food because you lied, because this is the people's food. You're a kulak, you're a landowner. And very quickly, a kulak, which meant like peasant landowner, became anyone who had a piece of bread. And this was systemic and ongoing, and many people in the press did not believe it. There was a British journalist, I believe, who got out of the train, Ukraine, like one town earlier, and walked, and he described all this and he was mocked and derided. And this is just anti Russian propaganda because at the time, in the 30s, this was socialism, had come to fruition. This was a noble experiment. I'd seen the future and it works as. I think Sidney Webb was the guy who said that. And the premise was, let's see what happens. We've never tried something like that. And they were perfectly happy to have this experiment happen overseas at the price of the Russian people, because it's like, you know what? Maybe this will be paradise on earth. And I address this in my book as well. There's a superb essay, I think, by Eugene Genovese, and he talks about the question, the question being, what did you know and when did you know it? What did you know about the concentration camps? What did you know about the starvation? What did you know about children being taught at school to turn in their parents for having some extra bread? And his conclusion is, we all knew, and we all knew from the beginning, every bit of it, and we didn't care because we were more interested in promoting this ideology. So when people are kind of thinking the worst thing on earth is Robert E. Lee statue being taken down in Washington D.C. we were being told, and especially a much more limited news information world where now you have. Literally anyone can have a Twitter. But how many outlets were there that we're backwards, they're the future, they're scientific, we have the vagaries of the market, which led to the Great Depression. And when you see what was being put over on the American public at the time, anyone who thinks things are as bad now as they've ever been is simply delusional or ignorant.

Yeah, I would say, just as a small aside, that's why reading as I'm almost done with the rise and fall of the Third Reich.

Oh, yeah.

It refreshes the resets, the palette of your understanding of what is good and evil in the world. That I think is really useful.

Now.

Like, you know what helps me be really positive and almost naive on Twitter and in the world is by just studying history. Yeah. And. And comparing it to how amazing things are today. But in that time, what would you do? What does the brave mind do? And not just acts of bravery, but how do you be effective in that? That's something I often think about. It's sometimes easy to be an activist in terms of just saying stuff. It's hard to be effective at your activism.

One of the big questions historians have constantly is how did this happen? A To make sure it doesn't happen again. But this is Germany. This is not some kind of weirdo cult nation. They're very advanced, very. In the land of poets and philosophers. How did it get to that point that they're just shooting children and everyone's cheering for this?

Specifically on the anti Semitism and the.

Holocaust, but just have Terranism, the cult of Hitler and just this whole kind of thing.

There's this. Sorry to sign up, but there's two sides. I don't know if you want to separate them. One is the totalitarianism and the. The entire. The entirety of the Nazi regime. And then there's the Holocaust, which is like, you know, going. I would say, like very specifically, as I think you're about to describe is like, you know, targeting Jews very much. So I don't know if you see those as two separate things.

I think they're very interconnected. But I think if you look at it, everyone thinks that they'd be the ones putting up Anne Frank, but if you look at the numbers, they'd be the ones calling the Stasi on her or whoever the people were at the time and not the Stasi, obviously, and patting themselves on the back for it.

So sorry to pause on that. That's a really important thing. If you're listening to this, that. And you were not. You were in Germany at the time, you would have likely been willing to commit or at least keep a blind eye to the violence against Jews. Like, you have to really sit with that idea that you would have been somebody who just sees this and is not bothered by it and also very likely kind of understand this as a necessary evil or even unnecessary good.

Yeah. And I think people think they would be. The abolitionists are marching on Selma. The numbers don't add up to that at all. And I think the question would be, my friend was on Tinder, my friend Matt, who's a great dude. And the question was, what's the most controversial opinion you have? This is in New York. And the girl wrote, I hate Trump. And what people perceive themselves as being courageous in saying and doing and what is the actual social costs of you saying or doing this are two very disconnected things. And we're also trained by corporate media to have completely vapid, uninteresting, banal ideas and yet regard ourselves as revolutionaries. There are people who still in New York will take pride because they have a gay friend. And it's like, first of all, who cares? But second of all, you are not a hero. And that person's not your prop, by the way. That's another big problem, which is why.

I'd like to give Richard Wolff a shout out for being an intellectual who talks about communism. I think it takes kind of a heroic intellectual right now to speak about communism. Seriously. There's difficult waters to tread. Is that the expression? There's difficult paths to walk.

I love watching a robot try to use idiom in a language he doesn't.

0, 0, 1, 1. I'm quite deeply hurt by the binary comment.

Are you? Your feeling has gone from one to zero.

Yeah. What is. My buffers have overflown, though. But there's difficult. I feel like communism is universally seen as a bad thing currently in intellectual circles. Or actually maybe some people disagree with that. People say far left people are trying to. You know, there's some people who argue the, the BLM movement is some kind of arm of the Marxist. I mean, I don't, I don't really follow the deep logic in that. Whatever. But, you know, it's just.

Well, they said they were formed by Marxism, the founder. Co founder.

Yeah, but stating that is different than there's.

There's Marx the, The totalitarian. There's also Marx the revolutionary. And I think they're talking more like we're revolutionaries who are going to overthrow the status quo.

Yeah, right. But like, we can have that further discussion. But I just don't think they speak deeply about political systems of. And saying communism is. Is going to be the righteous system that, you know, there's not a deep intellectual discourse. What I mean, but if you were to try to be on stage with the Jordan Peterson, like, to me, the brave thing now, like, it would be to argue for communism. It'd be interesting to see not many people do it. I certainly wouldn't be willing to do it. I don't have enough. I don't, first of all, don't believe it. But second of all, it's a very difficult argument to make because you get so much fire. Which is why like Richard Wolff, he's one of the people who is quite rigorously showing that there's some good ideas within the system of communism, specifically saying that attacking more the. The negative sides of capitalism. So saying that there is that capitalism potentially is more dangerous than communism. I mean it's, I disagree with that but I think it's a. I love.

How something is like we've got a body count of 60 million but this everything is potentially, you know, like water can drown everyone on Earth. So this is incoherent.

Well, I think nuclear weapons are bad. But nuclear energy is good.

Sure. Well, nuclear weapons are also can be good. You can easily make the argument, which I don't know that I subscribe to, that nuclear weapons prevented boots on the ground war and or it caused them to be much more contained.

And they're also quite effective at changing the direction of an asteroid that's about to hit Earth, as I've learned from Armageddon. And they're actually useful, as Elon Musk has claimed for application for prior to colonizing Mars, making it more habitable.

Oh, okay, so it changed something.

Else. But yes, but I guess what I'm saying is there's, there's place for nuance and there's some topics so. So hot like communism where nuance is very difficult to, to have and that I feel like with Nazi Germany it was a similar thing at the time.

You want to talk about Jeanette Rankin, who's one of my favorite people. So Jeanette Rankin was the first woman elected to Congress. She was elected before women's suffrage was constitutional amendment from Montana. She was elected in 1916. She was one of a handful of people to vote against the US going into the Great War, which was the right call at the time. She was a pacifist Republican as well. Coincidentally, she lost her seat, ran again in was it 1940, got the seat again and was the only person to vote against getting into World War II. It was not a unanimous choice. Jeanette Rankin was the one person and she said you can no more win a war than you can win a hurricane. So she's one of these interesting. And talk about bravery. You're the one vote after Pearl harbor to say we're not doing this. And I mean the pressure she must have been under at the time is. And of course many people are not interested in hearing her perspective, she's crazy, she's evil, blah, blah. It's also funny, someone on my Twitter, when I talked about her, goes, maybe she had Hitler's sympathies. Like, yeah, Ms. Rankin was a big fan of Hitler. You figured it out.

Guys, do you think there's an argument to be made that, that United States should not have gotten involved in World War II?

Oh, easy. An easy argument. The argument there's a. I talk about this in the New Right. So on Internet circles, there's something called Godwin's Law, which means the longer an Internet conversation goes on, the probability someone gets compared to Hitler becomes one. In certain New Right circles, the longer the conversation goes on, the more likelihood that the argument will become, we shouldn't have ended World War II also becomes one. And the argument is, at the very least, stay back, let Hitler and Stalin kill each other off and then go in and knock off the weaker one and you're going to be saving, destroying two nightmare systems. And I think that's an easy argument to make. Now, it's hard to pull off after Pearl harbor, but in terms of strategy, I don't think that's a tough sell.

What about after Pearl Harbor?

I mean, that's what I was saying after Pearl harbor, how are you going to sell that to the people? The argument is, blah, blah, the Holocaust. The Holocaust is. There's no scenario where that doesn't happen, really, unless you're going in way earlier. But even so, Hitler had said, if the Jews launch another war, we're going to wipe them from the face of the earth. So the Jews are being held hostage by Hitler as an argument for this. Another thing he did, which was diabolical, is in order to make it that people could not accept Jews as refugees if they were going to leave Germany, they had to be brought penniless. So now you have. It's not like they're coming over with money and they can take care of themselves. No, no, they're going to be completely destitute.

It makes it harder to accept them.

Yeah, millions of destitute people who don't speak the language. It's a tough sell.

So, speaking of good ones law, what do you make of this condition? Trump Derangement syndrome.

Yeah.

And the idea of comparing Trump to.

Hitler, I think it's despicable. And I'll give you an example, something parallel that I think more people should be regarded as despicable. Earlier in 2020, we were all told that unless we were in Syria immediately, the Kurds were going to be exterminated. They invoke the Holocaust. This is going to be another genocide. And if you're not for this, you should. You're basically, you know, forcing another Holocaust. None of the people who use this argument, we didn't go to Syria. The Kurds weren't exterminated. They just vanished from the news. Had any consequences for using this kind of comparison. So I think it's really kind of fatuous, and I think it's amazing that people think Hitler's the only tyrant who ever lived. Like, everyone who's bad is specifically Hitler. You know how you know he's not Hitler? Because you can tweet at him and no one comes to your house to kill your family. Like, that's kind of a big difference. Also, the difference between Trump and many of his critics is that his grandchildren will be raised as Jews. So that's also kind of a. And Deborah Lipstadt talks about this a lot. The New York Times at the time. There's another book called Buried by the Times, which talks about the New York Times and the World War II, because the idea that Jews weren't white was the Hitler idea. The New York Times at the time, Salzberger wanted to be against this idea. So they specifically downplayed the antisemitism, as opposed to the Nazis are being oppressive. So the argument that you can separate Nazism from antisemitism is a historical debate people have. And my perspective is. I think it's. I do not find it convincing that you can separate those two. I think antisemitism was essential to Nazism. I think Nazism and Mussolini's Fascism have very big differences.

Do you think anti Semitism was fundamental to who? Hitler Was it just that? So this is the interesting thing is, like, it. Was it a tool that he saw as being effective?

No, he believed it.

So why do you see those as intricately connected? Could Hitler have accomplished the same amount or more without the Holocaust?

Yeah, because think about how many resources you had to divert at a time where you have Operation Barbarossa with Stalin.

So why are they connected? Why are they so connected? Is it because Hitler was insane, or is he a bad strategist or what?

He was obviously a bad strategist. He had no need to open a second front. His generals, my understanding, told him, this is crazy. It didn't work out for him at all. I mean, to draw Russia and her resources into that war. It makes absolutely no sense in retrospect. There's a book about. I forget what it's called, where it Talked about him at that point, was just high all the time on amphetamines. And that could have affected his thinking.

Yeah, there's a really good book on drugs. I forget what it's called, but yeah, it's a really good one.

But it was. I mean, scapegoating is a big part and parcel of the Nazi mythology and this kind of one universal figure to explain, you know, this kind of, you know, skeleton key.

But it could have been the Communists. I mean, that could have been the source of the hatred.

So, like, the Communists didn't get Germany into World War I like he said the Jews did.

It seems to me that the atrocity of the Holocaust is the reason we see Hitler as evil.

No, the reason we see Hitler is evil is because of World War II propaganda still. Because we don't see Stalin as evil.

Right. That's my.

Mao was evil to that extent. I think that.

Why would you say that?

You know why? Because I think a lot of the problem for certain type of mentality is Hitler didn't mass murder equally. So as long as you're killing just one group, it's a problem. But if you're murdering everyone equally, all of a sudden it's like, eh, what are you going to do? So the fact, like you were saying the holodomor is not common knowledge. The fact that Mao's 50 million dead and not common knowledge, and Richard Nixon can be raising a glass to him in China, these are things that I think the west has not done a good job reconciling.

Knock, knock.

Who's there?

Frank.

Frank who?

Frank you for being my friend, Michael.

And the heart attacks will say, frank you for being my friend. You got to do it like this.

All right.

Yeah.

Okay. Now back to Hitler. Do you think Hitler could have been stopped? We kind of talked about it a little bit in terms of how to. What is the brave thing to do in the time of Nazi Germany? But do you think. I mean, I'm not even going to ask about Stalin in terms of. Could Stalin have been stopped? Because probably the answer there is no. But on the Hitler side, could Hitler have been stopped?

I think a lot of these things, a lot of luck has to play with it. He was almost assassinated. If you mean by like the west, it's very hard. I mean.

Yeah, by the German people too. I mean, could, like, if, politically speaking, there was a rise to power through the 30s, through the 20s, really. I mean, like, can whoever. It's not about Hitler. It's about that kind of way of thinking. That totalitarian control that always leads to trouble, sometimes at a mass scale. Could that have been stopped in Germany or maybe in the Soviet Union?

Well, I think this is one of the best arguments against radicalization in the States, which is, how do you engage when you have like 30% of the population who are members of a party which is dedicated to systemically overthrowing the existing democracy. Stalin gave orders that the communists, who had a pretty sizable population, the Reichstag, that their target shouldn't be the Nazis, but the liberals and the social democrats. And they invented the term social fascist for them. So instead of. They're just like jihadis. Instead of taking their sights on Nazism, they set their sights on the moderates because they figured the choice between Hitler and us were going to win. And this was a huge gamble. And they were all killed or had to flee. And the ones who fled were killed also by Stalin, to my understanding. So this is an easy way where he could have been certainly heavily mitigated.

What about France and England? That it was obvious that Hitler was lying and they wanted peace so bad that they were willing to put up with it even after Czechoslovakia. Like, like this is the anti pacifist argument, which is like they should have threatened military force more.

But then the other anti. The anti anti pacifist argument is, if you're going to remember, Barack Obama had that the red line, if you cross this red line in Syria, we're going to go in. And Assad, whatever, was like, yeah, cool. And he's like, oh, okay, well, sorry. So if you're a threatening force, there's the great song lyric, don't show your guns unless you intend to fight. Right. So it's very clear with free countries through what's in the press, whether the institutional will is there to follow through on these threats. So I think it would have been very hard for Chamberlain to rally the British people to take on Hitler just after the great. I mean, the suffering that Britons took Great war, they still, you know, obviously it means so much more to them than us does to us in the West.

What about, what do you make of Churchill then? Like, why was Churchill able to rally the British people? Why was he like, do you give much credit to Churchill for being one of the great forces in stopping Hitler in World War II?

I don't think that's really in dispute. I think he was very much regarded as this kind of the right man at the right time. And I think Chamberlain took a gamble. The expression peace in our time was Neville Chamberlain when he signed the appeasement with Hitler. And he goes, we now have peace in our time. Now go home and get a good night's sleep. That's what he said. Because he's like, all right, he's going to stop here. And it's not impossible that if you just gave him, like, if you gave Saddam Hussein Kuwait, it's not impossible that he's not gonna, you know, invade Saudi Arabia next, something like that.

Let's see. Okay, but everything I've read, it's like, of course there's. There's. It's not impossible, but when you're in the room with Hitler, you should be able to see, like, man to man. Like. Like, to me, a great leader should be able to see past the facade and see, like. Like, yes, everything in life is a risk, but it seems like the right risk to take with Hitler. Like, it's surprising to me. I know there's charisma, but it's surprising to me people did not see through this facade.

I really hate the idea of hindsight and everything being 2020, and I think it's a very good idea generally. I'm speaking generally, not in this specific instance, to give our ancestors more credit than. Than we tend to give them, because people often. Here's a great example from another context, which is lightning rods. People always talk about religious people being stupid and superstitious, and they weren't. They often were very well reasoned. And example of this is lightning rods, which is every year, whatever town, the church was the tallest building, and that's the one that always got hit by lightning and got caught on fire. Now what? It's a coincidence that it's always the church, like, that makes logical sense now. They didn't realize, well, it's because it's the tallest, and therefore that attracts the electricity. And in fact, when they invented lighting rods, this is a controversy because it's like, well, how is God going to show his displeasure if now it's striking this lightning rod not burning down the church? So a lot of times things are a lot more coherent than we give them credit for. And again, Chamberlain, he. He's the head of a parliamentary party, so he does not have the freedom, in a sense, that a Hitler would, to be like, all right, we're doing this again, boys. We don't know what it's like in a room with Hitler. Come on. We really have no idea.

But I think you have to think about that, right?

Yeah. But I can very easily see him in the room being very calm and charming, and then you Think, okay, the guy with the speeches is the actual. And he's putting on a show for his people. And this is the real one.

Okay, so let's take somebody as an example. Let's take our mutual friend Vladimir Putin.

Yes.

Okay. I don't know why saying his name makes my voice crack.

Because he's scared. He could hear you. Like Beetlejuice, Volodya.

So there's a lot of people.

Is he the one who built you?

No, that was. That was a collaboration. What's. It's a double blind engineering effort where I was not told of who my maker was. There's a backstory, but there's a talking cricket.

Pinocchio. You'll be a real boy someday.

I talk about him quite a bit because I find him fascinating. Now, there's. There's a really important line that people say, like, why does Lex admire Putin? I do not admire Putin. I find the man fascinating. I find Hitler fascinating. I find a lot of figures in history fascinating, both good and bad. And the figures, just as you said, that are with us today, like Vladimir Putin, like Donald Trump, like Barack Obama, is difficult to place them on the spectrum of good and evil, because that's only really applies to, like, when you see the consequences of their action in a historical context. So there's some people who say that Vladimir Putin is evil. And based on our discussion about Hitler, that's something I think about a lot, which is in the room with Putin. And there's also a lot of historical descriptions of what it's like to be in the room with Hitler in the 1930s. There is a lot of charisma. In the same way, I find Putin to be very charismatic in his own way. The humor, the wit, the brilliance, the. There's. There's a simplicity of the way he thinks that really, if taken at face value, looks like a very intelligent, honest man thinking practically about how to build a better Russia constantly, almost like. Like an executive. Like he loves. He looks like a man who loves his job in a way that Trump, for example, doesn't.

Right.

Meaning, like he loves laws and rules and how to.

There's no adversarial press, so that's going to help.

Yes.

And he's popular with his people. That's also going to help enormously.

I'm talking about strictly the man directly, the words coming out of his mouth. Like all the videos and interviews I watched based on that. Not the press, not the reporting. You can just see that here's a man who's able to display a charisma that's not like I can see. That's why I love Joe Rogan is like, you could tell the guy is genuine and is a good person. And, like, you could tell immediately that, like, once you meet Joe, that he's going to be offline. Also good person. You could tell there's, like, signals that we send that are, like, difficult to kind of describe. In the same way you can tell Putin is like, he genuinely loves his job and wants to build a better Russia. There's the argument that he is actually an evil man behind that charisma or is able to, you know, assassinate people, you know, limit free press, all those kinds of things. Like, that's. What do we do with that? So what do human beings like journalists or what do other leaders, when they're in the room with Putin do with those kinds of notions in deciding how to act in this world, in deciding what policy to enact? All those kinds of things. Just like with Hitler, when Chairman is in the room with Hitler, how does he decide how to act?

Well, let's go back to my wheelhouse, which is North Korea. Right. So when your entire world is based on being against Trump and everything Trump does is buffoonery or counterproductive, the conclusion of your reporting is going to be pretty much given. I was very hopeful that there would be some positive outlooks or outcomes rather, of Trump's meeting with Kim Jong Un. It looked like there was a space for things to go a bit better. I talked about it a lot at the time, and Trump was under no illusions about who he was dealing with. People pretend that, oh, he was kind of naive. He had one of the refugees that had stayed, the union, lifting up his crutch. The first thing he sat down and talked to Xi Jinping about in Mar A Lago right after he became inaugurated was North Korea. Barack Obama said that when he sat down Trump in the White House during the transfer of power. He said North Korea is the biggest issue. So I think a good leader, whether or not you consider Trump a good leader, has to be aware of. All right. I'm going to have to have relationships of some kind, even if it's adversarial with some really evil, evil, horrible people, which Kim Jong Un clearly is.

Well, I. I don't think there's anybody that has a perspective that North, North Korean, Kim Jong Un or ill are not evil. Right, Correct. But with in 1930s Germany, isn't it a little bit more nuanced?

Yeah, because Hitler hasn't done anything yet, and he's just to blow hard. And he's an anti Semite. Sure. But he's.

What about, like, before the war breaks out? Like, what about the basic actionable anti Semitism when you're, like, just attacking, hurting.

We're talking crystal knock or talk about the night of Long Knives.

Crystal knock. So it's the night of the broken glass.

Yeah, yeah. Long Knives is when he assassinated a bunch of his people. That was something different.

Yeah. So like, when you're actually attacking your own citizenry.

Yeah. That was universally condemned. Kristallnacht. And that was very shocking, its level of barbarism to the west. Because I think we still want to believe, understandably, that things aren't as bad as they seem. We would rather. This is why I. The North Korea book I did, Dear Reader, is used in a humorous framework because if you have to look, it's like looking to the sun. If you stare at it straight on, it's very hard to do. So you have to kind of look at it obliquely. And then you're kind of realizing the enormity of the depravity. And again, pogroms in Russia had been a thing for a very long time. And there's a difference between, okay, you know, we're going to sack these villages and persecute people and we're going to systematically exterminate them. That's. There's. There's still levels of evil and depravity.

So you did write the book, Dear Reader, on Kim Jong Il.

Yeah.

Dear Reader, the Unauthorized Autobiography of Kim Jong Il.

Yeah.

So that's the previous leader of North Korea.

Correct.

Current one is the U.N. no. No creativity on the naming.

Well, no, this is intentional because it's a throwback to the dad.

So there's been only three leaders in North Korea. So we've talked about the history of Hitler and Stalin, men like these. I think it's important to understand that the history of those kinds of humans, there's. The history of North Korea is not well written about or understood, which is why your book is exceptionally powerful and important. So maybe in a big, broad way, can you say, who is King Jong Il? As a man, as a leader, as a historical figure that we should understand? And why should we understand them?

So I wrote, Dear Reader, by going to North Korea and getting all their propaganda, which is translated into several languages, because the conceit is everyone on earth is interested in them and wants to mirror their ideology.

And he died in 2011.

2011.

And you wrote the book in 2012.

I went there in 2012. I wrote the book, came out in 2014. So Kim Jong Il is, though, not an intellect, North Korea's version of Forrest Gump, in that when they write their history, whenever something happens, he's there, and by telling his life story, it's in the first person, he's telling the history of North Korea. So I wanted to write the kind of book where in one book, and it's the kind of reading you could do in the beach or the bathroom, you're going to get the entire history and know everything you need to know about North Korea in one accessible outlet. And what people don't appreciate about North Korea, there's several things, how bad it is. And this didn't happen overnight. This was very systemic that what this family did to that country where piece by piece, they did everything in their power to. To hermetically seal it from the rest of the world, ramp up the oppression, keep any information from coming in. And they're very creative and innovative in their style of manipulation and control. So there is a farcical element. Let me give you an example. So people in the west kind of get it wrong. They talk about. Oh, they talk about when Kim Jong Il played golf for the first time. He gets 17 holes in one. There's this one story about Kim Jong Il shrinking time. And this is a story. It sounds supernatural, but it's not. So Kim Jong Il is at a conference, the Dear Leader, and someone is giving a talk. And while that person's giving a talk, Kim Jong Il is taking notes and working on his work. And he has an aide who keeps interrupting him with questions. And the speaker keeps stopping. And Kim Jong Il says, why are you stopping? Goes, I see you're doing these other things. And he goes, no, no, I can do all these things at once. Everyone's shocked. And they said, this is why Kim Jong Il looks at time not like a plane, but like a cube. And he can shrink time. And my friend goes, do they mean multitasking? And yes, Kim Jong Il is the only person in North Korea who's capable of multitasking. So in order to elevate him, they basically make everyone else in North Korea completely incompetent. And that has a purpose, because should the leader go away, this country is going to collapse overnight. They laugh in the west about all these newspapers, show him at the factory and he's at the fish hatchery at the paper plant. They say the difference in North Korea is that the leader goes among the people and does what he called field guidance. So he will go in that farm and be like, this is what you need to do. And he'll go here. And he's so smart. He's good at everything. And thanks to him for sharing his wisdom with us. And he's not removed from the people like in every other country.

Why does that seem to go wrong with humans? Do you think that this kind of the structure where there's this one figure, this authoritarian, this. The totalitarian structure, where there's one figure that's a source of comfort and knowledge.

Kim Jong Il is not good at farming. Kim Jong Il is not good at the machinery. It's all a complete lie. Or the things he'll point out will be things that are completely obvious. So here's another example that they use in North Korea. They have something called the Tower of the Juchi idea, which is an obelisk which looks like the Washington Monument, but it's completely different because it's got this, like, plastic torch at the top. And they talk about in their propaganda how all the architects got together and they said, oh, we should make this the second tallest stone obelisk in the world. And Kim Jong Il says, no, let's make it the tallest. They're like, we never thought of this before. And the way it's presented, as if. And like, he's the first person to think of this. Like, these architects are having a brainstorming session. The Towers of Jushu idea. They're like, all right, we gotta do something innovative to put North Korea on the map. What can we do? How about second biggest? He's gonna go for this. And then he's like, oh, we never thought of this. It's so. Because I present it at face value, people sometimes say the book's a satire. It's not a satire. I downplayed all this stuff. It's a farce. Here's another example. North Korea is very big, and I think Russia is to some extent too. On amusement parks, fun fairs, they call them in the British style, because this is the chance for the people to all to get together. And there was this amusement park. It's almost like South Park, Cartman, where there's all these rides. And Kim Jong Il's like, I'm not going to let any elderly or children take these rides until I put myself in danger and ride them myself. And they go, but, dear leader, it's drizzling. And he goes, no, I have to make sure these rides are going to be safe for everyone, even during the light rain, to go, well, can we go on these rides with you. No, no, no. I have to be the courageous one. And he's riding all the rides, and they're standing there crying at his courage. But that's what's. And you ask all the things in one power. It's like, listen, I'm quite confident that those fun fair engineers are in a position to ride Modest mouse, whatever it's called, by themselves and be like, yeah, okay, this is good for the kids. Although to be fair, some of those amusement parks are pretty rusty and dangerous.

That kind of propaganda. I guess what I'm playing a devil's advocate is like, it's comforting and it's useful, but it does seem that that naturally leads to an abuse of power.

How can it be used correctly? No one person has the intellect or the mind to understand the entirety of an economy, let alone every individual field of interest.

Well, for example, you can have an artificial intelligence system that understands the. The entirety of it.

Your affect just completely changed. The mask slipped. I guess you could have an artificial intelligence system.

But, like, the question is, can that mean, like the, The. The human version of that is like, you can hire a lot of experts, right? You can be an extremely good manager.

Since everything's dynamic, it's not gonna. They're not gonna have the data to kind of manage it.

Well, it seems that there's a, like, what George Washington allegedly did. It seems like most humans are not able to fire themselves. You're not able to, like, yeah, you're right, ultimately, be a check on your own power. But that's not. If I was like, if I was creating a human, it's like, that's not an obvious bug of the system that we would not be able to fire ourselves to know when we have. I mean, it seems like that's something you have to know always. Like, that's something I often wonder is like, am I wrong about this?

Well, this is what we talked about earlier. What are the safety valves to make sure that, okay, if I am incorrect or my knowledge is finite. Plato's cave kind of thing. What mechanisms are in place that my mistake or limited information isn't going to have deleterious consequences. And North Korea does not really have that. And as a result, they had polio in the 90s.

So there is a. You're. You write about it straight. But there's a humor to it because it's an absurdly evil place, I suppose.

Yeah.

A bunch of people asked. I asked, I said that I'm talking to you and a bunch of people Ask questions.

Oh, I gotta hear from the plebs. You asked me before we started recording. I specifically said no. It was in my contract.

Yeah, and you gave. I gave you all the pink Skittles or whatever. But they.

So big skin.

You don't think I'm trolling Michael, let me explain to you how that works. People should go malice.locals.com which is. And sign up and pay. I think the membership fee is several thousand dollars. It's very. It's not.

It's not for the layman.

Yeah. But the service is excellent. You get a coat with it. But, yeah, I went there, posted a lot of really brilliant people there. People should join that community. If you find Michael interesting or if you just want to go and say why he's wrong, it's a great place to have that for that, I assure you. Yeah, a lot of really kind people. So anyway, the. There's a bunch of people asked that we should talk about humor.

Okay.

So pretend, hypothetically speaking, that I'm a robot asking you to explain humor to me. What? So, dear reader, I mean, there's a humor. There's. You're so wonderfully dance between serious, dark topics and then seriously dark humor. Can you try to. If you were to write like a. I don't know, a Wikipedia article, maybe a book about your philosophy of humor, what do you think is the role of humor in all of this?

A joke is like a baby. You can't dissect it and then put it back together and expect it to work. Trust me on this one. Despite no matter how you carve that thing up, it's not going to be great working the next day. And you need it to sew those little sneakers with those hands. Oh, I don't know. That. Humor is something that is very explainable, people. There's something called Clapter, where this is like the worst kind of humor, where people applaud because they agree with what you're saying, as opposed to laughter. That's. No, that's. That's the kind of.

That's the poetry reading.

Yeah. And the drag queens do that too, I think, because they have the nails. You laugh. It's a visceral reaction. When someone on Twitter is insisting that's not funny, you're not in a position to make that claim. And let's go back to North Korea. I had a refugee I knew and he went to high school here, and he was talking to his buddies and they said, hey, remember when we were kids, we had Pokemon? And he goes, oh, yeah. Except Instead of Pokemon, I watched my dad starve to death, which is the truth. Now, who are any of us to tell him not to make that joke? I don't know what it's like watching anyone, including my dad, starve to death. And my dad's fatty, so he's not going hungry anytime soon. So it's very bizarre to me when people feel comfortable precluding others from making jokes especially, and I think this is a very Jewish thing, like this kind of gallows humor, especially when it's laughing about a personal loss or experience that they've had. Humor is a great way to mitigate pain and suffering, but it's also, I think, this why it's a Jewish thing. It's a black thing. When you are a marginalized community or poorer, it's free. Telling stories, telling jokes or songs. You don't have to have money, but you can have joy and happiness. And I think that's why you find it so much more in kind of lower status communities than you find in, like wasps, who are notoriously humorless, which.

Is strange because people pay you a lot of money for the jokes you do, so it's not really free.

Yeah, well, nope, they don't have to pay me. It's appreciated, but not expected.

I find my voice cracking every time I try to make a joke. Like I fail miserably at this point. Some people.

You're still in beta.

That's why Alpha.

Sure. Being an Alpha is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't.

No, I meant Alpha version, not Alpha.

Okay. I don't know if you're a robot gobbledygook.

I'm not going there. Okay.

Who are you talking to?

In my own head. I'm talking to myself in my own head. Okay. Speaking of North Korea, some people say that. You know, I've read that comedy is about timing. First of all, do you agree?

And second of all, no, I'm serious.

No, just you saying yes, it's funny. Okay.

Isn't it? Comedy's tragedy plus timing. Isn't that the full reference?

What is it? The interrupting Kyle knock knock joke? I'm not going to do it.

But that's not a timing thing. It's more of a repetition and then the twist ending.

No, the moo.

Oh, the moo. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Interrupting cow, you think it is the banana one. Anyway, I'm not going there yet.

You're talking too, are you? Small wonder. Do you stand sleeping in a wardrobe?

Yeah, that's so British. But yet you're very.

I don't want to stay in a closet because that has connotations.

Let's. Let's both come out of the closet for a second. I love you and let's talk about you, Lex.

I wasn't saying I love you, Alex. I was saying I love you, Lex.

Oh, you were talking to me.

Yes, through the screen.

So when you. So you think about me when you're with another man?

I watch you when you're sleeping.

Okay.

So you're a dangle song.

You're really active on Twitter.

Yeah.

And somebody else asked on your overly expensive membership site.

My grift site, how.

Do you find humor different in writing on Twitter versus spoken humor?

So if that's a great question, if.

Humor is about timing, how do you capture the timing and the brilliance of whatever is underlying humor in the context of Twitter? Another way to say it is how do you be funny and yet thoughtful on Twitter?

So with Twitter, you have to be the first one to the punchline. So when Ron Paul had his stroke, I was immediately being like, he's still the most articulate libertarian. He's doing a great Joe Biden impression right now. All the libertarians got ass mad. And people like, too soon. Or like when someone dies, you're making the jokes about them. It's like, when do you want to make the jokes about someone just died? A week later? It doesn't make any sense.

Now you might too soon is perfect timing.

Or you could say it's not appropriate ever. But too soon does not make sense in this context. So that is something that I enjoy doing. It's also fun ruffling people's feathers. Something I enjoy doing. I think spoken versus writing is very different because when you are having good banter with someone, for me, as the audience, knowing that it is on the spot really adds an element of humor because then it's like, wow, this is fun. It's like a ping pong match or something. Whereas in writing, it's. You're losing the tone, you're losing the. The relationship of a dynamic conversation. And a lot of times the joke is just going to be a different type of joke.

Well, it's funny. But Twitter, there's a sense, especially your Twitter, that you just thought of that and you just wrote it.

Yes.

There's a feeling like it's literally you talking, as opposed to what I imagine is there's some editing or it doesn't look like it. Whoever your editor is should be fired. There's an interesting effect, actually. If I want to say something I don't know about, about the. Something that's bothering me about the presidential election or something like that, like, what are. What is the actual central idea that I'm trying to convey to myself? Like, if, say, I was having hypothetically conversation with myself.

What. Why am I putting my pants back on? I'm more comfortable this way. Promo code malice20.sheathunderwear.com. okay.

That's sheath. What is it? What's the website? Sheathunderwear.com sheathunderwear.com promo code malice20. And I forgot. Why is that underwear really nice?

Because it has a dual pouch technology to keep your man parts separate. They've also got woman stuff, but I don't know how that works. There's a thing or going somewhere, and.

The material is really refreshing. I mean, it's really a good.

And it makes your ass look good.

That's promo code mouse20.

And it's made by. It's made by a former vet because he was in Iraq. So that's why I like promoting it.

Yeah, but what I'm writing, the. The. The tweet, I. I like to. It forces me to think deeply about the core of the message. Okay, but what. I found this really interesting effect. Like, I don't really do much editing on the tweet. Like, I'll just, like, think, and then I'll write it, and then when I post it, like, submit, Like, I immediately see the tweet very differently than it was in my mind. I often delete. Like, I delete, I don't know, some percentage of tweets about, like, two, five seconds after. Wow, I don't know. Something. Well, once you send it, it's why the Gmail send features. Undo send features. Really nice. It's like, it just changes the way I see the thing. So it's very interesting. It's. But I really love it that you can delete it. Because when I say stuff out in the wild, like the other humans, like other humans, spoken, spoken word is like, you can't delete what you just said. And I often regret the things I say, like in. In on the spot. Like, I shouldn't have said that.

Really. Yeah, I don't have that.

Well, again, whoever your editor is, what is it? Edith Piath? Jeanne.

Wow, your French is as bad as your English. I don't have any tweets I regret because if I sent a tweet that I regretted, I would make amends. I would make it a point. If I was needlessly offensive to somebody or hurtful or accidentally, I would make sure to fix it and go out of my way to make sure that person feels vindicated and validated by accepting my apology. That has never happened. Had to happen. Thankfully, I'm also someone who is not big on taking the bait. Recently, some people have come after me pretty hard, and my perspective is that it's not really about me. It's either. I represent something. To them, I'm just some jackass with a Twitter. So if you're getting this riled up over me, it's not really about me. Maybe I'm delusional, but that's how I look at it. So if they are trying to provoke me into this kind of heated exchange, I will never do it because I'm not interested in it. And I don't think there's going to be any. It's like Jeanette Rankin, you. You can't win. It's just going to be like trying to win a hurricane. There's. There's no hero here.

Well, let me ask you about this, because somebody also asked that on your overly expensive membership site that, like, they were saying that they're an academic. They wonder because I'm an. Quote unquote. I'm not an academic, but I do still have an affiliation with mit. The word academic is dirty. It's like. Which is a problem that needs to change. Just like the word nerd is dirty.

No academic needs is going to be the next front to open, and they're going to be very vilified. We're coming for them, and it's going to be very, very ugly. And I cannot wait.

No, but there needs to be a place, a different term for people who love research and knowledge. And like, you have to.

No, you're right. 100%.

You're right. So, like, there. You have to. You have to clarify what you mean by academic. And right now, the word academic means a very. In the intellectual public discourse, it means the enemy. And there's a lot of people that perhaps deserve that targeted vilification. But like, a lot that don't. They're just curious people.

You're absolutely right.

Building. Building robots that will one day destroy you. Voice cracks every time I make a joke.

You're not consistent.

I can't do this.

There's nothing a joke.

I'm editing and I can. Can I delete that joke? Okay, it's not even a joke. Robots building robots that will one day kill us. Humans, God willing. Humans are the joke. That's why I'm cracking my Voice is cracking. What were even. What was I even saying? Academics. But why my local.

Someone had a question. They're an academic.

Right. They're an academic. They're saying, like, are you worried that, you know, in academia, associating yourself with a sort of somebody who has, who can be misconstrued to have radical ideas? Like the two examples they gave is Michael Malice and Joe Rogan is.

Does Joe have any radical. I wouldn't consider him radical at all.

Well, we can talk about it.

But Joe is, I think, a bad example. He's quite centrist to me.

Well, he could have. For example, like, what has Joe been attacked on. Is, for example, on the, on the topic of like transgender, like athletes. Athletes and sports. There's. What else? I mean, he's been pro Bernie Sanders and that's hardly pro Trump or like giving Trump a pass.

Yeah. Not anti Trump.

Not anti Trump.

Yeah.

What else?

Just none of these are radical meat.

Meat stuff. Being pro meat versus anti vegan.

Yeah.

You know, all those kinds of things. But you could be misconstrued and, and saying there's, I think, a highlight. My mom actually wrote to me about this, which is hilarious. Thank you. I like how you jotted down. It's when it's important.

Well, actually your mom wrote to you Yoshinka.

That's. That's a sign. My voice cracks. A sign when. When Michael Malice makes a funny joke is when he jot something down.

And.

Then he writes it and then the next time he crosses it out. Good point. Yeah. It's like Joe Biden, the debates. Okay.

I did also just crap my pants. So like a mud slide down here.

There's a. I mean, he's a comedian. You have a comedian side to you, right? I mean, you're. You've talk humor side.

Yeah.

Humorist is so you can misconstrue like Joe as being somehow a radical thinker. And the same would be done with you. And his question was, how are you worried about associating yourself with folks like that?

Am I or you?

Me. Me.

Yeah.

Good question. And is that something. Do you see yourself as somebody who's dangerous that I shouldn't be talking to? And in the same way, do you. Do you ever think about guests on your podcast or people you talk to publicly, associate yourself with publicly and think that there is somebody that crosses that line that you shouldn't talk to?

So I interviewed in the new ride, I interviewed like up to full blown Nazis, the last chapters about Chris Cantwell. But that was in the context of that book, right? So there's lots of people who people want me to have on my show. And the way I look at it is like you have a table and a tablecloth, right? And let's suppose the table is three feet wide. The tablecloth is two feet wide. So if I move the tablecloth to the right, I'm going to lose people on the left. I can only cover so much space. And the further you go on the fringe in one direction, the more mainstream you're going to lose in the other direction. So I'm very much making a conscious choice not to talk to being people will say I'm cowardly. And that's absolutely true. I'm being fearful here. I would prefer not to talk to some of those who would alienate some of the more mainstream people. And here's a perfect example of why. On my birthday last year, I woke up 7 o' clock in the morning to go pee. And I checked Twitter, whatever, and Jeb Bush had followed me. Jeb. And it's 7am you're not really awake. You're like, wait, what? And then I thought, maybe it's a fake account, but it's in the Verified tab. Oh, you don't have this because you're not verified on Twitter. That's a shame. So people who are madder on Twitter.

Twitter does not respect robots.

They ban bots. You're lucky of them. In ban 0100, it's 00,0.

Those are my pronouns.

So I. It was Jeb. Jeb. Governor Bush and I corresponded with him and I asked him on the show and he decided not to for various reasons. Very politely, he's like, just politics is so bad right now. I don't want to talk about it. And I respect that for him. If I am in a spit, if I'm creating my show where he's going to get heat for who and get canceled, oh, you can't be on the show. He has these other guests. I don't want to lose that opportunity because as we were talking about earlier, me and Alex Jones and Tim Pool, I think a lot of people would be very excited to see me sit down with Jeb Bush. And I told him in writing, and I meant this, I wouldn't be clowning him. I wouldn't be disrespectful. It would be a lot of fun. There's a goofball side to him that comes out sometimes, and I would do my best to bring that out and talk about what it's like being a blue Blood to be born into. His grandfather, Prescott Bush was a senator from Connecticut marrying a woman who didn't speak English. How does that work when your family's royalty and things like that? So I had a lot of fun questions for him, and that's kind of. You're gonna have to choose one or the other.

Well, you do a really good job of that. Like, Ben Shapiro does a good job of that, too, which is you can have multiple. You can have a trolley side, humorous side, where you tear down the power structures and so on, but you can also have a serious side, and it's a safe space for people from all walks of life to walk in. And you're not adversarial?

Never. I take the word guest seriously. If they're going to be on my show, I'm not going to have them have negative consequences as a result of being on my show.

That said, I mean, maybe in my case, I'll be honest and say that I find Alex Jones outside of the conspiracy stuff for some reason. Maybe you can explain, maybe you can psychoanalyze me, but I find him hilarious. Yeah, listen to.

He's a performer. He's very performative.

But there's a lot of people that don't see the humor of it, and they see the serious, like, consequences of spreading conspiracy theories of different kinds. And you mean. Yeah, they see the danger of it. You know, and I personally, I'm often tempted to. To talk to Alex in a podcast format, but I think I'm trying to convince myself that I never will. For me, I feel unsafe talking to Alex because I can't truly be myself, which is like.

Yeah, you'd have to be on.

Naive and honest.

Yeah.

And like. And actually, I generally, when I talk to humans, I want to see the best in them. And I think that's. Like, I often think about if I talk to Hitler in 1935, 1938.

Got a list of names to give him.

Well, yeah. I mean, that's how you get the interview. Come on, let's be honest. Who. Who are we kidding? I would. You have to give away one of your. I would probably give one of my brother. So how many brothers do you have? Well, just one. Okay. Too many.

I want to be an only child.

He's the older brother. He used to pick on me. Payback. You know, it's only. He had a good life.

You should think of it more as Stalin. So I interrupt you because Hitler, you're Jewish, so you're already going to have very adversarial. It's not going to be a normal. He's not going to perceive you as a. As a human in a sense. Right, right. So it's Stalin.

You're right.

Yeah. That would be much easier. Or Kim Jong Un or something like that.

Like you think, like how. Okay, this is a good question is in that. And that's. Why don't you jot something down if you.

Hitler.

All right, we'll cross it out in a second. I think this is a really good example of a difficult figure that's controversial that people bring up to me a lot. And you interviewed twice, which is Curtis Yarvin.

Yeah.

Mention Small blog Mention Small, AKA Mention Small Bug, which is his pseudonym that he goes by his blog. Can you tell me about who he is?

Sure.

Why is he interesting? What of his ideas are interesting?

Well, briefly, he invented the concept of red pill. So Curtis Mencius Mulbug had a blog called Unqualified Reservations. You can still find it online. It's very verbose. He writes at length, very, very bright. His perspective is very heretical. So a lot of things that we take for granted in our liberal democracy he regards as not only incorrect, which is downright absurd, and does not. He does not take what many people view as the basis of American political discourse as the basis for his thoughts. So when you're starting with someone who is basically repudiating kind of the Western worldview, or not the Western worldview, like the American milieu, a lot of people are going to, of course, regard him as dangerous or someone who is verboten. He's a very bright person.

Why is he such a toxic figure?

Because if you are blue pilled, if you are the guardians of what is acceptable discourse, then you have to make sure your forts are secured and that any figure outside of this acceptable discourse has to be marginalized and regarded as radioactive as possible. You don't want to let in these kind of ideas that would be destructive to your hegemony.

Well, so let's dig into it. So like, he. I've read a few things by him, but then I hear that in a bunch of places him being called a racist, a white supremacist, neo fascist, so on. I go to his Wikipedia. Yeah, there's a view on race section. Let me read it.

Okay.

Yarvin's opinions have been described as racist, with his writings interpreted as supportive of slavery, including the belief that whites have higher IQs than blacks for genetic reasons. Yarvin himself maintains that he's not a racist because while he doubts that quote all Races are equally smart. The notion, quote, that people who score higher on IQ tests are in some sense superior human beings is, quote, creepy. He also disputes being an outspoken advocate for slavery, though he has argued that some races are more suited for slavery than others. Quote. It should be obvious that although I'm not a white suprem, white nationalist, I am not exactly allergic to the stuff Yvin wrote in a post that linked approvingly of. I don't know these people. Steve Sailor.

Steve Sailor, yeah.

He's from Jared Taylor and other racialists. Yeah, so, okay, so like one of.

My question is, can let me just say one sentence in the same way that you had you mentioned that guy earlier who was defending some aspects of the communism and that is in some contexts acceptable. When you think about it's like this should be radioactive. The fact that he is engaging with these ideas in anything other than this has to be reputed at all costs is what renders him to a large extent racist.

That's really interesting. So there are some topics you can be nuanced, nuanced and some not. And communism is still a topic that you can be nuanced about. It's difficult, but you can be race. And this, like talking about slavery and IQ differences based on race is a topic that I guess is radioactive to a degree where you can't even say anything even if it's like nuanced or not even like making a point. It's like touching it as you make another point.

And understandably, because you can understand that I'm going to steel man their point because you can understand the point. It's like you're just talking about Hitler. Once this foot gets in the door that some people are inherently slaves or some people are inherently better than others, it really quickly collapses. So that would be their perspective.

But that's what like if I were to give criticism of his.

But let me just say one more thing. Racist is also used to describe Alex Jones. Alex doesn't talk about race. Racist is a shorthand for a certain percentage of the population that to let you know, do not bother investing in this person any further. They're off limits.

Definitely. Racism and sexism is a thing that's now used to shut down conversation that's quite absurd by a small percent of the population.

But Jared Taylor and Steve Saylor, Jared Taylor interviewed him for my book. He would be regarded in any sense as a racist.

What's the difference in racist and racialists?

So racialists, I mean, this is splitting hairs. And now I'm going to Be all radioactive. Jared Taylor runs something called Amren. And this is. I mean, his perspective is that there are inherent differences to the races and you cannot live side by side. Well, whites and blacks should not be living side by side.

And by the way, for people who don't know, this is out of context, you have written a great book that includes some of these concepts called the New Right, which not includes these concepts, but talks about. Well, it's more about the growth of the community around. That's the alt. Right? And all those kinds of worlds.

Right? So. And his point about iq, it's like if you had a population, the Dutch, right? I think they're the tallest people on Earth. And if you said, well, the Dutch are the best people on Earth, why? Because they're the tallest. It's like you're a crazy person. So if someone is scoring low an individual on an IQ test, that means they're somehow a lower quality person? Well, maybe in one very specific aspect, but I mean, if they're a good human being. I've got friends who are low iq. All my friends are low iq, frankly, compared to me. Sound like Trump there for that.

How you choose.

Well, I don't have any other choices. No one's going to be at my level.

You're the smartest person since Abraham Lincoln that I've. That I've ever seen.

Unlike him, I actually am honest. So. So he is someone who very much swims in heretical ideas. Aristotle. Here's another thing. Like if you bring up that Aristotle said that some people are born to be slaves, he wasn't speaking about race, he just meant people's souls. H.L. mencken, who's a great heretic and early 20th century figure, one of his quotes that I say all the time, which people have seen a lot in this past year, that the average man does not want to be free, he merely wants to be safe. That I think is speak. I don't know. I am not familiar with what Mulbug saying about slavery because his writing is ponderous. But that certainly is something I think that is undeniable, that I think more people are realizing there's a large percent of the population that is actively disinterested in freedom and the more responsibilities it entails.

Well, I mean, really just the word slavery, if you want to make some kind of point or even think about the topic outside the context of this is a horrible thing that happened in the United States, history and other countries.

History is not unique to us. Let's be clear.

This is. I mean, very important. And there's slavery going on today. And a lot of people argue that the sex trafficking and all those kinds of things. I mean, there's. There's atrocities going on today that, you know, talking about it in a way that's not immediately saying, this is the most horrible thing that happened ever. You know, it's something I think about a lot, is like, if I want to say something controversial, I should do so with skill, with care, and only about things I care about.

Well, here's where I would disagree. When I say things, I often say things that are controversial, or I will say uncontroversial things in a controversial way, because it's a useful mechanism to alienate people you don't want around you. Because if there are people who are going to be shocked by certain topics, like, we shouldn't have ended World War II, like, even as a hypothesis, they just clutch their pros. They're like, oh, you want the Holocaust to happen? I can't discuss most things with you because you're not interested in having a conversation. You're interested in your emotional response.

See, I think I see things differently. Maybe this is a bit of a devil's advocate, but what in at least the modern discourse of, like, Twitter and social media and so on, I find that if you do that, you're not actually removing the people that are not thoughtful and kind and so on. You're actually attracting loud people, like a small number of them. They come over and start yelling at you, start yelling. They're basically ruin the party by showing up and just screaming. And so all the thoughtful people leave.

Well, that's why you have to be a very heavy blocker. You have to block people on Twitter because you have to cultivate your audience and have them. Like, a lot of times people come at me, I don't care. Then they'll start attacking members of my audience. And then I'm like, dang, I got to block them because they've won this one, because I can't have that.

Yeah, I don't know. I. Unnecessarily provoking people feels.

It's. It's. It's you. This is beta testing. You try to break the system and see what works. You put as much pressure as possible. This is very much computer stuff that you should be able to appreciate. The point being, when you have a program, you're trying to intentionally sit there and do as many mistakes, see what go wrong. Right. Is that not common?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're saying that that's a Way to see communication with the world as you say something uncontroversial in a controversial way and that blocks people that.

Or does it trigger them? Do they roll their eyes? You know, what is going to be the emotional response? Are they going to start yelling?

The problem is the reason I can't think like this or I can't because I'm not sure about the points I'm trying to make. Always. Like, I'm not always 100% sure that I'm right about things. So in being thoughtful, I'm afraid that I'll turn off with an ineloquently phrased or even incorrect statement. I will do damage that can't be undone in terms of having a good conversation about a topic. So I want to be very careful about. Like, I'm not saying afraid. Fear is not what I'm talking about. I think fear is like not saying something out of fear is at the core of the media, the problems of the world today. But I'm just saying say stuff with care. If I'm going to touch race as a topic, it feels like you really should be deeply. First, have a point to make. Like you really care about a point you want to make. And second, think deeply about how to say that point in a way that communicates it the best and touching. I would say listen on your show, which is great. I'd like to say thank you for having Mencius Mobile.

You are welcome.

That's the name of the show. Thank you for having me a couple of times. It's great to sort of get him to. In this loose way to talk about different kinds of stuff.

I don't think we talked about race at all. So.

No, no, no, no.

But I'm just bringing it back to what you were asking, which is if you read the Wikipedia, the perspective is going to be this guy talks about slavery constantly where it's completely disproportionate to his work.

But even on your show, you can tell even outside of the race stuff that he's not ultra careful about. He's not.

Nuanced. Yeah.

He's not afraid to say something. Just like I would say, let me just criticize him. My face is not you. This is me carelessly say something controversial.

Right.

Like, I'm not saying he doesn't go like, you know, that makes him. It's a very different thing than somebody who on purpose says something controversial stuff like Milo Annapolis. Sorry, I forgot. Milo, whatever his name is.

Yeah.

Which is really nice to see that he's a genuine person who's thoughtful, he doesn't mean to, but he just carelessly seems to say things that I feel like damaged the rest of his body of work.

I can't really speak for him, but I would guess his point is once you're swimming in this kind of worldview, you're going to be anathema already. So there's no pleasing these people. So why bother trying to see.

I think that's a deeply. That's a, that's a black pill way of seeing the world.

It's not black pilled at all because.

It'S a cynical way, like these people. So like it's, it's saying that you're. It's a very kind of way of thinking. Like, I'll say whatever I want, whoever comes along with me.

No, you just earlier said yourself that race racism has been weaponized as a way to shut down conversation. So I think his perspective would be, I am so outside the mainstream in my worldview that I know I'm going to be called racism racist. So there's no point in trying to be nuanced because I'm already going to get the scarlet letter.

Yeah, I just disagree with that because, for example, I am one person that he turned off by his carelessness. And I think I should be a good target. I should be somebody.

I think that's fair.

And I'm just like, he. It's very convenient to think that there's ridiculous people out there, which they are, who call everybody racist and sexist currently. And then you can't please them. So I'm not even gonna try. No. But there's like this gray area of people. Sure. That I don't listen to the outrage culture. Whatever. I don't. This Wikipedia article means nothing to me. Like I, I'm not going to.

Right, I got you.

What I'm, I'm more, I'm just seeing this careless person and if he's going to be careless about like race like this, I feel like if I walk along with him long enough, I'm going to catch the carelessness. I'm going to lose.

Like, I'll defend your perspective better than you can.

Yeah, this is, this is good. I'm taking notes.

I talked to Eric Weinstein after you guys talked about me on your show. We had a good conversation. He invited me on his show.

That would be an amazing conversation.

And we got on the phone and his concern fairly, he goes, I don't want you to come on my show for the purposes of clowning me. And I would never do that.

Yeah.

It would never.

He might not be aware of who of.

Well, that's why he wanted to feel me out. He's like, you know, when he hears troll it can mean a lot of different things. And I. We had a very conversation. It very much was very clear. That's not where the conversation would go. But I think when you are going to be on someone's show there is a responsibility that they're not going to have to pay a cost for having you as their guest. So if you're. If you were put off by how he was in that live streams or two. I did like I understand where you're coming from. I think he's very, very bright. But you have a very. You have a different audience than I do and you're going for something different than I am.

No, no. Like in my. In just sense of.

You wouldn't feel safe with him.

Yeah, I wouldn't feel safe with him. But he's. He's borderline for me. I think I, I would like to actually talk to him one day. Alex Jones has crossed the other line for me.

Well, you could do what you could do with me. Tape the episode then never release it.

No, it's. It's one of those things will be when there's finally. They'll make a History channel documentary about you and I and how it all went wrong. Like the cult that we started and everybody killed themselves. And there's a. We'll release it then because it'll be like unseen footage. This is how it started. It'll be black and white.

In a.

Basement somewhere in New York.

Yeah.

Yeah.

My mother's basement.

This explains so much. Okay. So I spoke to Yaron Brook about objectivism and Ayn Rand.

He.

He kind of argued. He highlighted the difference between capitalism and anarchism as around the topic of violence and the. That having government be the sort of the. The negative way to say it is like having a monopoly on violence but basically being the arbiter of. Or the. The people that. Making sure that violence doesn't get out of hand. That would.

Yeah. 2020 show that. Yep. Government's great at that. Yep.

Well what. What's okay without this is him with.

The straight face making that argument. Good work, Iran.

All right. Well, can you with a straight face argue for the idea that in anarchism violence would not get out of hand?

Sure. For one thing, if your worst argument against one of my little quotes is what are presented as the strongest arguments against anarchism are inevitably descriptions of the status quo so the argument is, under anarchism, you'd have warlords killing people, and then you'd have whoever's strongest gets to just take over a neighborhood. Well, we have that now. We saw that the police are perfectly comfortable disarming the population, and then when they try to protect themselves, are punished. They're. We're happy to stand down. You can't. You can only have that happen if you have a monopoly. If they're like, let's suppose you had television stations, right? And CBS said, you know what? We're not going to broadcast. Cool. You don't broadcast. We're going to watch any of these other channels. So the problem with having monopoly is everyone has to be dependent on this issue. What's amazing about minarchism, which Objectivists are, is they will argue that government is really, really bad at everything it does and it touches. Therefore, it has to be in charge of the most important stuff.

Well, that's not there for. But. But there is a thing that's fundamentally different than all the other things.

But Yaron Brook also said that no government has. This is on your show. Has ever worked in the way he's proposing. Now, Objectivism, Ayn Rand's philosophy, is based on objective reality. And what she posited is you look and study the facts of nature, facts of reality, and deduce things accordingly. And she very much regards herself as part of the Aristotelian tradition, as opposed to the Platonist tradition, where the idea precedes reality and the idea is more real than what we see around us. So what he's saying is all the data, according to him, contradicts his argument. But still he's going to make this imaginary government that has never existed and there's no evidence that it can exist. Let's talk about objective law to have access to the legal system, which is something we want, even just in terms of selling disputes. When you have a government monopoly, it. It's going to be more expensive, more difficult for poor people. The cost of hiring a lawyer is more expensive than hiring a surgeon. You can't say with a straight face this is the only way or the best way.

Okay, so.

And the other thing is the argument for Objectivism. They have this stupid. Against anarchism. They have this stupid claim. It's like, what if you know, you're a member of one security company and I'm a member of another and we have a dispute and one shows up the door? What happens now? As if this is some insuperable argument. Well, we have that on Earth. Every country is in a state of anarchism regarding every other country. We don't have a world government. So what happens if a Canadian kills an American in Mexico? I have no idea. I bet you don't have an idea. What I'm sure of is that system has been worked out ahead of time between the three countries and it's been worked out in such a way that you and I don't have to reinvent the wheel. Same thing with cell phone companies. If I'm on Sprint, you're on MetroPCS and I call you. Who pays? Does Sprint pay you? Do they split the difference? First of all, there's no objective way that one has to work. But the thing is companies who have auto accidents, they have arbitrage all the time. Like if I run into you, they work it out and it never reaches our desk. So the only thing that cops are good at is keeping people at any government monopoly is forcing people to be their customers by keeping them unsafe.

Okay, there's a few things I'd like to say there that just explore some of these ideas. So one is in terms of Canadian and Mexico and so on, that it does something has been worked out.

Perhaps not perhaps, don't say perhaps. You know for sure that if some.

There's a point I'm trying to make. So let's say for sure it's been worked out. There is a. There was a point in history where it wasn't worked out. Like to, to. To work, to come to a place of stability, there has to first be some instability. So when you first, like for every kind of situation, they're like dispute over space, like who gets to own Mars, that kind of thing.

Sure.

There's the first for it and then these different competing institutions will have to figure it out. And so there's the concern with anarchism, I think, or with any kind of interaction, what you said brilliantly that there's an anarchism relative to the. There's no one world government. Right. Alex Jones enters the chat. But the. There's insta. The fear is that there's going to be an instability that's. That doesn't converge towards some stable place.

That is not the fear, that is the goal. Under Ayn Rand's philosophy, markets have something, what they always talk about as being creatively destructive, which means you look at something that's been happening for a very long time. Every generation, every innovator starts chipping away at it. He finds better ways. Marginal improvement or marginal or it doesn't work and he goes broke. When government tries to implement improvement, we all have to suffer the consequences. When an innovator does, it's a huge asymmetry. If it hurts, it only hurts him. If it succeeds, he becomes rich and we all profit as a consequence.

But the fear of anarchism I think is that it will be non creative destruction. It'll be just destruction. Right. It's not like the instability.

Let's give you. There's no stability is one of these words that says. Sounds objective but has no real meaning. What field has stability? Let's suppose you want stability.

Relationships.

Yeah. Let's talk about medicine. Stability means we're not going to invent new diseases or new treatments. Right. If you mean stability in terms of a baseline of security, we have that already. Very few relationships turn violent under an anarchist system. Look at it right now. If you look at a bar full of drunken young males full of testosterone, if you look at a hotel where everyone is not native to the area, those are both far safer than the places that the government has taken upon itself to protect you. The parks, the alleyways, the streets, the subways. We have right now a comparison of which is better at keeping people safe. And it's very obvious that when it's something is private and under someone's control. And there would be layers of. There'd be more police, but they wouldn't be a government monopoly. The store would have someone, the street would have someone and you'd have your own personal security that would be attached to your phone. Having security as a function of geography as opposed to a function of you as an individual is a landline technology in a post cell phone world.

So you think it's possible to have, psychologically speaking, as an individual among the masses to have a sense of security even there's. Even though there's not a centralized thing at the bottom of the whole thing. So like there's not a set of laws that are enforced based on geography. Like we have nations now. You can have a set of laws that are enforced in some kind of emergent, agreed upon way. So like basically I want to go to a hotel and trust that I'll be able to get a room and nobody's going to break down the door. And I don't know, but you have.

Let's take a different way. If you are worried about a hotel having bedbugs, that's not something that government's involved in. What mechanism? And that's not an unrealistic concern. Are there mechanisms right now? That you can undertake to make sure that's not the case.

Yes.

So it would be the same thing with I want to make sure I go to a hotel that has security. It would be exactly the same thing. And here's another example. Kosher food. People who keep kosher juicy cube kosher, their food has to be prepared in a certain way. It has to meet higher rabbinical standards. Right. If you look at food, it will have that certification, the K. And there's even competition there. There's the K and there's the stricter U letter. People don't notice it because they're looking for it. You would have companies certifying different locales for their level of security. And it would take an hour to have an app that. Just like when you have toll roads. Right. That would tell you you're approaching an unsafe area, you're not going to be covered by us or. And you could have it color coded very easily. We could do this today.

But the thing is, you're exactly correct. But there's an assumption of you're already in a. You can give me a different word than stability. But you're already in a place where the forces of the market or whatever can operate. The worry is like initially you might not have enough stability to where you can choose one place over the other versus based on the security that they provide.

We already have different types of security here because we have federal government, we have state governments and we have local governments and these often contradict each other. So the idea of the implausibility of having different security companies and having it be unstable or impossible. We already have a very rough example of it happening in real life.

But all of it started. This is what this like the idea of, especially with Yaron is like it all started with government monopoly of violence. Saying like now kids don't let violence get out of hand. So like we had a civil war.

Where half the country was slaughtered.

That's a display of the government not having a monopoly on the violence. Right. It's like it's. That's it.

It had such a monopoly on the violence in the north that it could draft people to fight others that they didn't even care.

But there's a south. So it's like it's a. It's a. It's the government splitting. Okay. It's like that's a giant iceberg. Like splitting is. It's the. The argument is that you would have something like a civil war much more often under anarchism.

But that's. That's That's. First of all, if you had a civil war, much more often. We don't have that with car companies. Right. There's no car company that says I refuse to pay or whatever.

That's not violence. Sorry to interrupt, but like. And I'm playing.

Hold on, let me finish. It is violence because if I'm a company and I'm saying that my cars can run over yours with no consequences, this is a rough analog. Why has that not happened? Now, in terms of having security system, if I am free, just like switching cell phone to go from one provider to another, and this one company, as part of its payment, doesn't want $50 a month, $100 a month wants my son. I'm not going to be a member of this security company. Unless in that case, we're dealing with something like a Pearl harbor or foreign invasion, where it's like all hands on deck.

Let's go by evidence. How many places do we have evidence of that? You can have at a large scale.

Well, that's definitely on a large scale.

Because it feels like once you don't know the person.

What about eBay? EBay is an example of anarchism. In practice, I am selling something to someone whose name I don't even know in a country that is nowhere approximate to me.

And.

And ebay acts as the arbiter. Sometimes I don't get the money after I get screwed over, but that's far less than the taxation that I have to give to the federal government.

It's a great point, but it's in the space of finance. If I could. If on ebay, you could also commit violence.

Theft is violence.

No.

Yeah. If you give me ten grand for a car and I don't deliver anything, you've stolen ten grand from me.

Yes, but it's. There's something uniquely problematic to being stabbed or shot.

The reason you're stabbed or shot is because the government, despite its contract, is refusing to allow second amendment rights to be implemented among the citizenry. And the people who are making that the case are the cops. They are the ones who are the traitors to the Constitution and should be regarded as such. Whereas private companies are far more amenable to market pressures than the state is.

It's a strong argument, but let's actually just briefly mention the scale thing. Why don't you think we should talk about scale?

Because if you had anarchism just in Vermont or just in Brooklyn, fine. The people make the argument. You need anarchism or else China is going to Invade. But that's like saying, what do these little countries don't exist? Does San Salvador not exist? Some of them are violent, some of them are not. But the point is, they're not all at a moment's notice about to be invaded. Kuwait's an example of this. Kuwait was invaded by Iraq. And very quickly, all the big countries who are interested in having your stability, safe space got involved and kicked him out of Kuwait. If you had this company that was waging war on the population, it seems quite likely that the other organization would get together and put a stop to this, because they're not in a position to provide this service of security to their customers.

Okay, all this is brilliant, but didn't you just say that we are actually in a state of anarchism relative to other countries?

Yes.

So isn't this what emerges? This is this what? Aren't we actually living in a state of anarchism where we all have agreed.

I haven't agreed to anything.

So, like, the basic criticism you have is like, you're born on a land. Geographical. Land area. Geographical area. And you're forced to have signed a bunch of stuff just by being born in a particular place. So really, if you could just much easier choose which space of ideas you associated with geographical area. And you're forced to have signed a bunch of stuff just by being born in a particular place. So. So really, you could. If you could just much easier choose. Right. Which space of ideas you associated with.

Right.

That would be actually a state of anarchism.

Yes.

And you could have, like, a military that you sign up with.

Sure. And you're certainly not putting people in prison to get raped because they're selling drugs.

Yeah.

And you're certainly not allowing everyone else on the street who wants to be there.

Can we say something nice about Ayn Rand?

I can talk about nice things about her all day. I own her copy of the Fountainhead, you know.

Yeah. What to you is Ayn Rand's best idea, one that you find impactful and such.

Right.

That would be actually a state of anarchism.

Yes.

And you could have, like, a military that you sign up with.

Sure. And you're certainly not putting people in prison to get raped because they're selling drugs.

Yeah.

And you're certainly not allowing everyone else.

Useful for us in modern society that.

You think about that your life has meaning and productive work is your highest value. And that you shouldn't apologize. And this is something I despise. You shouldn't apologize for saying, I want to be happy And I'm going to work toward that and that there's a few others that you owe nobody else, some random stranger a second of your time. You see this a lot on Twitter and social media. People like demanding a debate or demanding you act a certain way and engage with them. You don't owe them anything. In the street, who wants to be there?

Can we say something nice about Ayn Rand?

I can talk. So I think those are some of her best ideas. And she teaches you how to think. Ayn Rand does not have all the answers, but she has all the questions.

Do you think, what do you think about the whole selfishness thing? I mean, are you triggered by the word selfishness?

So it's really unfortunate what she does, because you were just about nice things about her all day. I own her copy the Fountainhead, you know.

Yeah. What to you is Ayn Rand's best idea, one that you find impactful, insightful, useful for us in modern society, that.

You think about that Talking earlier about Moldbug being carelessly. This is indefensible, in my opinion. So she talks about the virtue of selfishness, and she claims that when people talk about selfishness, they, they mean concern primarily with the self. They don't. When people talk about selfishness, they mean in a sociopathic way, concern exclusively with oneself.

Right.

They mean like, oh, if someone is dying on the street, I'm not going to, you know, even waste a second saving them because I'm selfish. So she sets up this complete caricature of the term when she's attacking selflessness in her best. Your life has meaning and productive work is your highest value. And that you shouldn't apologize. And this is something I despise. You shouldn't apologize for saying, I want to be happy and I'm going to work toward that. And that there's a few other events is when there are people who have no sense of self, they have no values of their own, they have no goals of their own. Everything that's in their mind is gotten secondhand from the culture at large. They. And there's nothing unique or special from their perspective worth fighting for. So when she attacks, when she advocates for the self, she basically means self development, self improvement and achievement. So I think that word choice is really false and needlessly off putting.

Yeah, controversial, perhaps for the purpose of.

Being controversial, but it's just, it's not others that you owe nobody else some random stranger a second of your time. You see this a lot on Twitter and social media. People like demanding a debate or demanding you act a certain way and engage with them. You don't owe them anything. So I think those are some of her best ideas and she teaches you how to. Not accurate. That's not what people mean by selfishness.

Yeah, I would say it's one of the reasons probably her philosophy is not as much adopted or thought about. Is like, it's funny, like the use of words means something. Exactly as you said. That's my criticism mentioned small bug. Which could be incorrect criticism, by the way. So I'm not exactly sure. Can we talk about some modern day chaos and politics?

Yes, please. I hate chaos.

Speaking of your hatred for chaos, let's talk about secession.

Oh yeah, I was the first one on this trip.

Yeah, you were. Well, the Civil War beat you to.

It, but sure, in contemporary times.

In contemporary times you think Ayn Rand.

Does not have all the answers, but she has all the questions.

Do you think. What do you think? You're on this. Can you talk about what is the idea of secession? What are the odds that it might happen? What does it mean for the United States about the whole selfishness thing? I mean, are you triggered by the word selfishness?

So it's really unfortunate what she does because you were just talking earlier about Moldbug being carelessly she in some way.

For different states to secede.

Sure. America's been one country with several cultures since the beginning. There's absolutely no reason for someone. This goes back to the anarchist idea. If you despise Donald Trump, which is your prerogative, if you think Joe Biden is a clown, which is your prerogative, there's absolutely no reason for you. This is indefensible in my opinion. So she talks about the virtue of selfishness and she claims that when people talk about self to be governed by someone you disapprove of. This is an incoherent, nonsensical concept. The only reason we even take it as a hypothesis is that we're trained to the contrary since kindergarten. A succession. I don't know along what lines, but increasingly it's becoming harder and harder for people to have conversations. They mean concern primarily with the self. They don't. When people talk about selfishness, they mean in a sociopathic way, concern exclusively with oneself. I think social media, and this is something people despise social media for. I think this is something that social media has done well, which I'm advocating for is it tends to kind of run through ideas, through an evolutionary process and drive them to the logical conclusion. So it's Very hard to be a modern online because there's going to be people pushing through your ideas through several cycles and then you're going to end up at some kind of more pure or if you want to dislike it, extreme perspective having these different pockets. It's not really governable because people fundamentally have different worldviews. So I don't know what secession would look like. Right. They mean like oh if someone is dying on the street, I'm not going to even waste a second saving them because I'm selfish. So she sets up this complete caricature of the term when she's attacking selflessness in her best sense is when there are people who have no sense of self. They have like I think the number is really increasing an exponential rate.

I do not the number of supporters.

Supporters. I think the claim that this can only be accomplished through violence is false. It's a lie. Just like any divorce doesn't have to involve beating your ex husband or ex wife and I'm very much looking forward to this becoming a reality far quicker than I ever expected.

Well, do you think there's a value of competing worldviews being forced?

No values of their own, they have no goals of their own. Everything that's in their mind is gotten secondhand from the culture at large and there's nothing unique or special from their perspective worth fighting for. So when she attacks to be in the same. Yes, in a context when she advocates for the self she basically means self development. So we can agree if group one thinks A, B and C are the fundamental aspects of their worldview and argue within that and world. Group two thinks D, E and F and argue within that. So you're going to have a lot of argument within those space. But if there's fundamental differences in worldview there's no reason to be. Especially when each views the other as completely incoherent and unreasonable.

Do you think there's a line of fundamentally different worldviews along which a secession will happen in the United States? Is there something that emerges to you.

As a set of ideas that self improvement and achievement. So I think that word choice is really false and needlessly off putting.

Yeah, controversial perhaps for the purpose of.

Being controversial but it's not accurate. That's not what people mean by selfishness.

Yeah, I would say it's one of the our like what do you call that? Like you can't come to an agreement over.

Yeah, I think that's already happening like with the masks. I think there's just two fundamental perspectives and each One thinks the other is insane and also deadly and destructive and I don't see how there's any discourse on this topic.

So on the left I wouldn't say.

It'S left versus right. I think it's people who are pro risk versus people who are risk averse.

Yeah. So risk averse. And then there's like a. One of the reasons probably her philosophy is not as much adopted or thought about is like it's funny like the use of words means something. Exactly as you said. That's my criticism. I mentioned small bug which could be incorrect criticism. Hope for the comfort of the sort of centralized science giving the the truth and then everybody must follow the truth of the proper way to behave and then there's on the other side by the way. So I'm not exactly sure can we talk about a distrust of any kind of centralized institutions of anybody who might use like control to try to gain greater and greater power and masks are simple of that. Even if masks are or are not an effective way of stopping the virus. Which is really unfortunate to me from a perspective I happen to be in a survey paper about masks. Like people don't seem to care about the data or the on correct. This has become just a nice point on which to then highlight the difference between the two. Some modern day chaos and politics.

Yes please. I hate chaos.

Speaking of your hatred for chaos, let's talk about secession.

Oh yeah, I was the first one on this trip.

Yeah, you were. Well the Civil War beat you to it.

But sure in contemporary times.

In contemporary times the two sides. Yeah. That's really, I mean I, it's, it sounds kind of on the face kind of ridiculous that the secession would occur over mask.

It wouldn't. But I'm saying this is an example of something where there's a clean break.

Yes.

And risk averse versus you know, someone who's risk seeking. These are just two fundamentally different perspectives. Do you want have an NHS or do you have a one of a market based healthcare system? You can make very valid arguments for both. There's no reason for everyone to be under work.

You're on this. Can you talk about what is the idea of secession? What are the odds that it might happen? What does it mean for the United States? 1 But you think that's not something that's, you think that's irreconcilable if that's the word that that's not in the space of ideas that you can have in the same room together and they fight at each other and ultimately make in some way for different states to secede.

Sure. America has been one country with several cultures in progress like that.

Secession is the more effective way to proceed forward.

Yes.

Well, do you see a possible world where no is the answer? Meaning. I know you say yes because you kind of lean on the side of freedom and anarchism. Yes. Like you make. You want to make. Let me make an argument in terms of divorce, which is in your worldview or your intuition is you want to make secession as frictionless as possible.

Like the beginning. There's absolutely no reason for someone. This goes back to the anarchist idea. If you despise Donald Trump, which is your prerogative. If you think Joe Biden is a clown, which is your prerogative, there's absolutely no reason for you to be governed by someone you disapprove of. This is an incoherent, nonsensical concept along all line.

Not just like states or whatever. Just like you want to choose. You want to be free.

Yeah. And peaceful.

Let me make my authoritarian Russian.

Okay.

Papa Stallion, Papa Stalin argument in terms of relationships. Like when goes wrong in a relationship.

What's your language?

Okay. There's only a place for one Stalin at this table.

Okay. Okay. I'll get to be Lenin.

No, you get to be like Merkel. As our previous discussion with Putin. Okay. Don't let me unleash the hounds. Yep.

The only reason we even take it as a hypothesis is that we're trained to the contrary since kindergarten. A secession. I don't know along what lines, but.

You know, you want to work through some of the troubles before you get divorced. Like you want to do the work in relationships. Sometimes, like it goes up and down.

It's been 200 plus years.

It's.

It's done.

But in the. Listen. Okay.

Increasingly it's becoming harder and harder for people to have conversations. I think social media, and this is something people despise social media for. I think this is something that social media.

So it's not a one night stand. But you know, look at Trump, this.

I don't see the middle ground. He's either a complete calamity buffoon or he's been the first great president we've had in like many, many years.

So you think that there's something different now than it was 20 years ago.

Yes. Social media and access to information and.

The division will only increase. You think?

Oh, yes.

So Trump is not an accident of history.

So they thought Trump was the river, but he was the dam. Done well, which I'm advocating For is it tends to kind of run them.

Trump was the dam, they thought he was the river.

Ideas through, like an evolutionary process and drive them to the logical conclusion.

So in that analogy, Trump being gone makes.

So it's very hard to be a moderate online because there's going to be people, you know, pushing through your ideas through several cycles, and then you're going to end up at some kind of more pure or if you want to dislike it, extreme for things worse. Yes. For that perspective. Because now things are really going to hit the fan.

So what are the odds of secession?

I don't know. And my desperate hope is that it's peaceful. But I think the number of people who are becoming very comfortable with the violence is making me very unsettled.

Well, I see words as violence. And your Twitter, it's like Hiroshima times a million. Sometimes I curl up in the corner crying after I check your Twitter feed.

Perspective. Having these different pockets, it's not really governable.

So.

But. Yeah, well, because people fundamentally have different worldviews. So I don't know what secession would look like.

In. In all seriousness, you. You think it's possible to do nonviolent secession?

It's a good Czechoslovakia. Look at Brexit. Brexit. Was this a. Like. I think the number is really increasing, an exponential rate. I do not.

The number of supporters.

Supporters.

Right, right. So you can have.

Civil war did not need to be fought. That would have been an unviolent succession. And if you worry about slavery, you could have bought off all the slaves, import them to the North. It still would have been cheaper and less loss of life and probably better for race relations.

Yeah, I don't know enough history to wonder about, like, how the Civil War could have been avoided. Well, that's. How is, well, conversation. So, like.

No, no. If they want to secede, I think the claim that this can only be accomplished through violence is false. It's a lie. Just like any divorce doesn't have to involve beating your ex husband. Hey, look, here's what we're going to do. We're going to let you secede, but you have to end up slave. You have to end slavery. They seceded because of slavery. Here's the other thing. There's like this. Some circles of conservatism have this myth that, oh, it wasn't about slavery, it was about states rights. Well, if you go back, every state, when they seceded, released the press release. Her ex wife. So. And I'm very much looking forward to this becoming a reality far quicker than I Ever expected. And they said explicitly, we're doing this because of slavery. So that is an abomination that needs to be taken care of. But the way the other countries have ended slavery peacefully, one of the ways to do it is pay them. And we end up doing this. After the war, I think the south people got reparations. The slave owners. It was just insane. Bring them north, want to go to Canada, whatever. And you.

Well, do you think there's a value of competing worldviews being forced and that's our peace treaty.

Because the people who died weren't the slave owners. It was white trash. And it was. That's who always. And I hate that that's the term. I can't think of a better one. But that's who always ends up fighting these wars, often disproportionately. It's poor people and uneducated people. And I don't. I don't. I did not regard them as cannon fodder.

I think it's horrible to be in the same.

Yes. In a context. So we can agree. If group one thinks A, B and C are the.

So what would it look like? There'll be two founding documents.

Yeah. They had. They had their constitution, which I don't.

Know the history of them.

Yeah, they had a constitution, but it was much more decentralized.

If secession doesn't happen. Yes.

Yeah.

You said that Donald Trump was the dam, not the river.

Yeah.

That sounds like Walt Whitman or something. You should. It's poetry.

Okay. Fundamental aspects of their worldview and argue within that. And world. Group two thinks D, E, and F and argue within that. So you're going to have a lot of argument. Are you flirting with me?

I don't. You know us. We don't. We don't flirt. We.

We just go to town club within those space. But if there's fundamental differences in worldview, there's no reason to be. Especially when each views the other as completely incoherent and unreasonable.

Do you think? And drag you to the. It's just the hammer.

We hammer and sickle.

And you don't want to know about the sickle. It's not good cop, bad cob.

It's bad cop, worst cop. Yeah.

What do you think 2024 looks like in terms of the candidates?

And it's going to be Kamala Harris as the Democratic candidate. I'm really looking forward to Ted Cruz versus Mike Pence because they're both very good at debate. That would be interesting to see how they differentiate themselves. But honestly, I don't I mean things.

There'S a line of fundamentally different worldviews.

They're going to get really ugly really soon.

What about Donald Trump coming back?

He's not going to do it.

Use that along which a secession will.

So things in my opinion, I think things are going to be really, really crazy in 2021. And talk talking about the damp being gone like 2021.

So this year coming up.

Oh yeah.

Will happen in the United States. Like is there something that emerges to you as a set of ideas that are like what do you call that?

Like you it's going to be complete. It's going to be complete mayhem.

What do you think? Like prediction wise and this is empirical. What do you think Donald Trump's Twitter feed looks like in 2021? Like if we're at the end of 2021 we'll look back and see like what was the, you know, Obamagate exclamation points or we won.

He is going to be for the first time in history holding the Republican Party accountable to can't come to you.

Can'T come to an agreement over.

I yeah, I think that's already happening like with the masks. I think there's just two fundamental perspective and each one the base. We've never had that happen before. I think he's going to be holding their feet to the fire, radicalizing them and thinks the other is insane and also deadly and destructive. And I don't see how there's any discourse on this. And given that they have the Senate where it's going to be 50, 50 the Democrats have a three seat majority in the House. This is not a governing coalition for either. It's going to be complete mayhem.

What does that actually look like? What are the key values you think that he's going to try to push?

I think it's just going to be very contrarian. He's going to be holding them accountable in terms of budgeting even though he never did that as president. I think in terms of some kind of nominations. Here's the thing. This is the first time since Nixon, 50 years and things weren't as politicized then where an incoming president doesn't have control of the Senate.

So on the left, I wouldn't say.

It'S left versus right. I think it's people who are pro risk versus people who are risk averse.

Yes.

The Senate has the vote over cabinet positions. I do not see it.

It's a risk averse and then there's like.

A possibility of them not trying to pick a fight on one or two of these nominations and that's gonna. And especially as revenge for Kavanaugh, this is gonna get very bloody very quickly. And I think Mitch McConnell, there's a sadistic side to him. He revels in being the brakes on the car. And I think the base, it's just going to be throwing just they're gonna.

Hope for the comfort of the sort of central lock and it wants some bone.

It's like, oh yeah, we, we eliminated this one person. So that's going to get really ugly really quickly.

You see it being quite divisive like the division increasing, not stabilizing or decreasing. And I'll be doing my part science giving the truth. And then everybody. I know you'll be doing my part, but I'm trying to do my part. And they try to be follow the truth of the proper way to behave. And then there's on the other side a distrust of any kind of centralized institutions of like to me the division is shouting over people like Elon Musk, people who are actually building stuff and like accomplishing things in this world in.

Terms of like Elon said he took the red pill.

No, see, you're talking about the play. I'm talking about forget Elon, SpaceX and Tesla and actually the good sides of like some of the things that Google is doing. Like actually building things like making the world's information searchable, all that kind of stuff. Like all the stuff, you know, the making actually the world a better. Anybody who might use like control place. There's a bunch of technologies that are increasing our quality of life all to try to gain greater and greater power. And masks are simple of that. Even if all that kind of stuff. I feel like they get like not much credit or in our public discourse because of the division. Division is just like like people. It's clouding our ability to concentrate on what's awesome about masks are or are not a vacation.

Yeah.

Effective way of. Of stopping the virus. Which is really unfortunate to me as a frontist world.

Well, you know what would eliminate the division, right?

Secession.

Yeah.

See, I don't, I don't. It's hard for me to disagree. It's hard for me to disagree because. But at the same time secession from a perspective. I happen to be on a survey paper about masks like people don't seem to care about. I'm a romantic at heart.

You want to divorce?

Breaks my heart.

Cool. But do you want to live in a country, bro? Yeah, but do you want to live in a country where Joe Rogan is regarded as an example of someone who's spreading white supremacy.

I don't about the data or the so on. Correct. This is. This has become just a nice. Well but see I feel like that's not the country we live in. That's just the point on which to then highlight the difference between the two. The two sides. Yeah that's really. I mean I. It's.

It sounds kind of New York Times did it the cathedral does it on.

A regular basis but the cathedral is okay the. The cathedral I guess you can maybe define the cathedral but it's like the centralized institutions that have like a story that they're trying to sell and so.

This is mock concept but yeah they basically are set the limits of permissible discourse and create a narrative for the population to follow.

To me that's a minority of people Minorities always. I'm the face kind of ridiculous that the secession would occur over mask it.

Wouldn'T controlling everything in any country. The vast majority of the masses have no thought.

Yeah but minorities can be overthrown and.

Sure the circulation of the elites.

Yeah the way the pro. No no no. That's what the. What progress looks like is ridiculous people.

Take But I'm saying this is an example of something where there's a clean break.

Yes.

And risk averse versus you know someone who's risk seeking. These are just two fundamentally different perspectives. Do you want have an NHS or do you have a one of a market based healthcare system Power. Yes.

And then they get annoying and new ridiculous people that are a little bit better overthrow the previous people.

Progress happens despite the people who are in power not because of them.

Right. And so why is secession so is it always about overthrowing the powerful? Is that how progress happens?

No, I think progress happens despite the powerful. The powerful are going to do what's. You can make very valid arguments for both. There's no reason for everyone to be under their power to maintain their power and they're going to fight innovation because it's a threat to their control.

There's always going to be the New York Times of the world. Right. There's always going to be those.

Those people that let them have their own country.

So it's two countries. One has Joe Rogan, the other one has the New York Times.

That's basically what's happening right now. It's just geographically one.

But you think that's not something that's that you think that's irreconcilable if that's the word. Yeah that that's not in the Space of ideas that you can have in the same room together. And they fight at each other and.

Ultimately make this and map out very well. But culturally.

Yes, but that's just cultural stuff. Like there's a layer of public discourse.

Okay.

I don't mean like that's what we're operating under now. But there's actual like progress being made, like roads being built, hospitals being run, all those kinds of things. Like different innovations. That seems like progress like that secession is the more effective way to proceed forward. Yes, secession is counter productive to that.

Right. Because one country would have all the roads and the other would have all the hospitals. That's. That's great point.

No it's not. That's not the point I'm trying to make. It's just like. It just feels like the division that we're experiencing in the space of ideas could be constructive and productive for. For building. Well, I. Do you see better roads and better hospitals as opposed to like using that division to separate a possible world would know is the answer Meaning in countries they're all gonna have to solve the same problems. It feels like, like sure. No, you say yes because you kind of lean on the side of freedom and anarchism.

They can solve them differently and compete that way. Mass is a great example. Yeah, we're seeing that right now. Different countries have different mass mandates and things like this.

And the competition within the same structure, within the same founding documents and same institutions is not effective. You think is as effective as separating.

It is effective. But there is a certain point which.

Yes. Like you make. You want to make. Let me make an argument.

I think we have long passed where there is not a consensus, a governing consensus ideologically or culturally.

Let me ask you a fun question. Okay.

Knock knock.

Who's there? Mars. In terms of divorce, which is in your world view or your intuition is you want to make secession as frictionless as possible. Like along all line, not just like states or whatever. Just like.

Absolutely.

You want to choose you God of war, the other one, the planet.

Yeah.

So there is a kind of captivating notion that we might. I'm excited by it. The human being stepping foot on Mars. That to me is going to be free.

Yeah. And peaceful.

Let me make my authoritarian. It's like one of those things that feels like it's. Why do we want to the engage in space exploration? But I'm a bit with Elon Musk on this, which is. It's obvious that eventually if human species is to survive, it's going to have to innovate in ways that includes the space.

Okay.

Like there's a lot of things we're not able to predict yet. That if we push ourselves to the limits. Russian.

Okay. Papa Stallion.

Papa Stallion argument in terms of relationships. Like when shit goes wrong in a relationship about your language of space. Like new ideas will come. They'll be obvious 100 years from now. And then we're not even imagining that. And colonizing Mars, that idea that seems ridiculous. Exceptionally difficult. Impossibly expensive. Is something that is actually going to be seen as obvious. And okay, there's only a place for one stall at this table.

Okay. Okay, I'll get respect.

Okay. And then we should engage in. Okay, that's just to contextualize things. The fun idea and experiment from a philosophical and political sense is what kind of government? How do you orchestrate a government when you go to Mars? Like what? We don't get Lenin. No, you get to be like Merkel. As our previous discussion with Putin. Okay. Don't let me unleash the hounds too many chances like this. But how do you build new systems? You know, you want to work through some of the troubles before you. Not in place of old ones but in a place where no system previous have existed.

I think organically. I hate that word. But that's the correct word. You would have to figure out. I mean that's how America was built. Was a Jamestown colony and they tried to do communism here and it could be a divorce.

You want to do the work in relationships. Sometimes it goes up and down.

It's been 200 plus. They failed and they went to a more free market system with the second wave of colonists is my understanding for Mars. I mean it depends on the population, who the population was, the number of people. I don't know. These are all kind of hypotheticals that I don't really have any good insight in whatsoever. I'm not a space person. I hate astronomy. I hate it.

So a lot of people look up to the stars and they're filled with awe and wonder about the mystery of the universe. And you look up to the stars and you feel what it's done. But in the. Listen. Okay, so it's not a one night stand. But look at Trump.

I don't see the middle ground. He's either a complete calamity buffoon or he's been. I'm not looking up. I'm looking at the Earth. If you look at what's. I'd much rather given a choice between Mars and the deep sea. The first great president we've had in like many, many years. So you think that I'd much rather spend a week at the deep sea and all the life forms that are down there because they're literal aliens there. It's like things that. Not literal but they're unimaginable to us. Some of the things down there.

Yeah, that's true. To me it's an interesting thought experiment to see when you have 10 people, when you have a hundred people.

Right.

How. How do you build an effective. You know, this is actually really useful for a company. Right. Like how do you build an effective company that does things. There's something different now than it was 20 years ago.

Yes. Social media and access.

It's not an obvious. Despite everybody being really certain about everything in this. In this modern world, to me it's not obvious. Like how do you run successfully as a ghost information and the division will only increase. You think?

Oh yes.

Group of people.

I agree. I that's what I'm saying. It also.

So Trump is not an accident of history.

So they thought Trump was the river, but he was the organic means you have to look at who the people are and tailor the organization to them as them.

Trump was the dam. They thought he was the opposed to.

Try to impose something.

But you get to also select people.

Right. Because it's not gonna be open borders on Mars.

Oh, right. I was gonna say when you have one country, it's all open borders. But yeah, you're right. From outer space. Right. Some say there are aliens already there, so you're gonna have to negotiate that.

Sure.

Wherever. So in that analogy, Trump being gone makes things worse.

Yes. For that perspective. Because now things are really going to hit the fan.

So what are the odds of secession?

I don't Aliens though.

We're aliens to somebody.

We're legal aliens.

Do you think there's alien civilizations out there?

Yes, of course.

What do you think is their system of government anarchism?

Because they're advanced.

Do you honestly think there's intelligent life forms out there?

Of course. Just the math. It's impossible that there isn't.

So.

And my desperate hope is that it's peaceful.

What do you make of all the. All the stories of UFO sightings, all that kind of stuff. Do you think they've visited Earth?

Yes. My grandfather was an air traffic controller in the Soviet Union and he said they would often see these things that were not operating. But I think the number of people who are becoming very comfortable with the violence is making the way we knew vehicles operate. So that's Good enough for me.

So, I mean, do you think government is in possession of some. Like what do you think government is doing?

Can be very unsettled.

Well, I see words as violence and.

Your Twitter, it's like Hiroshima times a million.

With this kind of information, do you think somebody has any understanding of UFO sightings? Sometimes I curl up in the corner crying after I check your Twitter feed. Or any kind of information about extraterrestrial life forms that are not known to the public.

Yes, that's indisputably true. I think the fact that so many of these sightings are from aerodynamic professionals, like pilots and things of that nature, they are people who've seen it all, who are reputable. If they are on record saying, I've seen things that don't make sense. And both the Russians and the Americans thought it was the other one that so.

But you know, in, in all seriousness, you, you think it's possible to do non violent society.

Czechoslovakia, look at Brexit. Brexit, was this something?

Shouldn't that be a bigger problem? Shouldn't that be bigger news and a bigger problem if government is in fact hiding it?

I guess. But like what are they going to do with that information?

Right, right. So you can have. It's, it's a good question. Like if a ufo, if extraterrestrial spacecraft, which most likely would be like a crappy space like it, it wouldn't be the actual aliens, it would be like some drone probe ship.

AI.

Yeah, AI. Yeah. So if that, like what would you do with that information as somebody that's in charge of, you know, like, you see how badly who fumbled the discussion of masks. Masks, yeah, masks is one of them. But everything really in terms of communicating with the public honestly about what they know, what they don't know, and that's a trivial one, right? I don't, I don't, I don't know. They're certainly feel incompetent at being able to communicate effectively with the public about something much more difficult, much more full of, full of mystery. Like a ufo, a thing, a piece of material that's out of this earth. Forget like organic material. I don't, I don't know. To me, I. So from a scientist perspective would be beautiful. It'd be inspiring to reveal this to the world. Here's a mystery and make it completely public. Share it with, try and share it with everybody.

I think there is a domino effect where the concern would be what else are you hiding from us? And at that point, if you said no, no, no, this is everything. People wouldn't believe you and they would. You can't blame them for not believing them.

Yeah.

And then it'll be like, show us the aliens. They'd be like, we don't have them, we just have the craft. You're lying.

Speaking of aliens offline, you mentioned elves.

Yeah.

And psychedelics.

Yeah.

What do you think about psychedelics in terms of the kind of places that can take your mind, the kind of journey can take you on? Like what. What do you think. What is. What do you think the psychedelics do to the human mind? And what does that say about the. The capacity of the human mind and just in general, like, the mysteries of all that's out there?

I don't know that we understand what they do. The way I heard it explained to me is that much of the human mind isn't about receiving information, but blocking information, because there's so much data coming in any moment that you basically have to train yourself to see into, hear only what you want to see into here. And that what psychedelics do is they tear that away and suddenly you're much more aware of what's out there. And also you're going to be noticing patterns that you hadn't noticed before. I know you had that researcher on the show, and he kind of discussed this at some length. I mean, Rogan is probably the person who popularized DMT more than any. Well, he's obviously the person who's popularized DMT more than anything. I don't know anyone who has, even the researchers who have anything close to a coherent explanation of why this drug, which exists everywhere, would have this very specific, very extreme effect on so many people who are going to be experiencing such bizarre consequences as a result of it. I think it's very interesting that this is talking about the government, the CIA started experimenting with lsd, they killed one of their own people, drove them to suicide, and there was a lot of research into. Terence McKenna talks about this, into this field. And then very quickly, once it got into the mainstream, they shut it down. Even though it's not addictive, it doesn't cause you to go crazy or anything like that. And there was a lot of propaganda against its use, which I think, thankfully, is now somewhat receding. I think Colorado just legalized mushrooms, something like that, and I think it'll be very interesting to see what happens as a result of this.

Yeah. And the interesting thing is there doesn't seem to be, for certain psychedelics like psilocybin, like mushrooms. There doesn't seem to be a Lethal dose, which is fascinating. Like Matthew Johnson, the Hopkins professor that you mentioned. I'm definitely going to do one of his studies. It's. It's a really cool way to do what he calls a heroic dose. Oh, psilocybin.

Oh, I want to do it. What do I have to do? Let's do it.

I'll let you know. So he's.

He is heroic dose. Holy crap.

Yeah, but it's safe.

What's the hero? I mean, how many grams are we talking?

I don't. I don't know, but it's just. It's big. He's. He says that this is gonna have a kick.

Yeah.

So he says that. I mean, he also studies cocaine. He studies all kinds of drugs. And he's like, the psilocybin is heroic.

Dross of cocaine kills you.

Well, he. You can't there. You can't. So you can't even come close. So he says, like, the problem with studying cocaine is you have, like, people who are addicted to cocaine.

Yeah.

Or war or so on. You give them the kind of doses that we can, and part of the study is, like, it's nothing to them. Right.

Yeah.

Yeah. Psilocybin is the only one where like, even like daily users or like regular users, like, are blown away by the dose they give them.

Oh.

So, okay, well, we're going back to Russia. You can go to Russia in your mind.

Yeah.

You could go to outer space. Maybe. Maybe you'll become an astronaut or astronomer after all.

Maybe I'll be Baba Yaga.

I'll let people look that one up.

Holy crap. Wow.

What is love? What do you think this thing is? Like, our attachment to other human beings. And is it something that we should give to just a few people?

Yes, that's for sure. When I was working with DL Hughley in his book, he didn't use the term, but he was describing, like low key depression. And he talked about how he was in the airport and he noticed a girl had a red dress. And he went up and thanked her and she was like, what are you thinking for? And he had realized he hadn't registered color in, like, weeks. And I think love is like that. When you see someone and you just like, oh, like, like your eyes are open, like, this is something I've never seen before. I want more of this. That kind of thing. It's really. It really disorients and reorients your thinking.

Don't you find that, like, the world is full of that, like, non stop? It's not just like, A person either. It's like.

But yes, but when it's in a person, it's a whole other level. Because it's like, I could have. This is going to be great for years. It's like, you know, every day it's something new. I mean, that, that is. And that is rare.

You think it's rare?

I mean, find someone who you could talk to them for years and not run out of things to talk.

Oh, that's true. For years. Yes.

Yeah, that's, that's rare. And know that they really, if you leave the room, they will do right by you. That's really rare.

Well, from a Russian perspective, you just don't give them another choice. For this is Tavaresh New Year, New Year's Eve. So you've talked about secession and the world burning down and you holding the match at the end, standing with a big smile on your face. Yes.

Why so serious?

But let me ask you, if it doesn't include flame and secession and destruction and laughing malice in makeup and a white suit at the end, how do we bring more kindness and love to the world in 2021?

Oh, easy. Be comfortable saying I want to be happy. And if there's someone who interjects and gives you attitude, arm's length them. Surround yourself with people who also want to be happy. Here's a great example. My buddy Chris Williamson, who I've mentioned before, he's a podcaster, does modern wisdom, he's an awesome dude and we became friends, very close friends, this past year and he was in Dubai recently and he sent me pics from Dubai by the pool, just loving life. And it took me a week and then it clicked in my head and I'm like, you know what, for some other people, if they saw him underwear model at the pool, they would think this is him bragging or humble bragging. And that never entered my head. I'm like, oh man, I'm so glad my boy can be having a good time and is sharing his joy with me. That's the kind of people you need to surround yourself with where it never enters their head to be resentful or anything other than sharing in your bounty.

What makes you happy?

I'm happy all the time. And one of the points I made in my life is like, I really hated, I really did not like to give advice because I feel don't give advice until you know what you're talking about. And to me, what makes me happy is being self actualized. I am in a position with my career where I could be myself 24 7, where I never have to engage in small talk, where I never have to interact with someone I don't want to. And I'm very blessed to have that. Very few people have that. And to have that be not only to have that be rewarded and having people find that something of value to them makes me very, very happy. But also being an uncle, I have two little nephews. They make me very, very happy. Sure, my sister's raising in Russian so they talk like immigrants, but that's okay. We're going to change that. We have to dismember her. That's fine. That makes me happy and like to be able to finish this book and know it's going to give people a sense of hope, that's really validating what.

Are you most grateful for for our conversation today?

You're stealing my bet. What am I most grateful for? I am very grateful that I can come in here not knowing what we're going to talk about and know it's not going to be something I have to be on guard about or I have to watch my words and that neither you or your audience is going to be responding derisively. I feel safe here.

You're welcome. By Siva thanks for talking to me, Michael. It was awesome. Thank you for listening to this conversation with Michael Malice. And thank you to our sponsors, NetSuite Business Management Software, Athletic Greens, all in One Nutrition Drink, Sun Basket, Meal delivery service and Cash app. So the choice is success, health, food or money. Choose wisely my friends. And if you wish, click the sponsor links below to get a discount to support this podcast. And now let me leave you with some words from Emma Goldman on anarchism. People have only as much liberty as they have the intelligence to want and the courage to take. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.