Randall Kennedy: The N-Word - History of Race, Law, Politics, and Power | Lex Fridman Podcast #379

Let's imagine you have a black rapper who invites people on stage and let's suppose they invite a black person on stage and they're perfectly happy when the black person full out with their lyrics. They invite a white person on stage. The white person isn't really sort of mystified, but comes on stage and, and full out with what the rapper says, including the infamous N word. And then the black rapper gets mad. Imagine the white comedian who satirizes that, pokes fun at that, and in poking fun at that, says the infamous N word. Am I angry? No, I'm not angry. Not angry at all.

The following is a conversation with Randall Kennedy, professor at Harvard Law School and author of many seminal books on race law, history, culture and politics, including specifically on affirmative action, criminal justice, policing, and the topic explored extensively in this conversation, the single most powerful word and slur in the English language, the N word with a hard r at the end. Randall has written a book with this word as the title, the Strange Career of a Troublesome Word. Please be warned that Randall uses this word throughout this conversation deliberately and skillfully to discuss its power and its role in the history of the United States. I don't intend to shy away from controversial topics like these, and I'll work hard to handle them thoughtfully and thoroughly, with respect and with empathy, often with several guests who have very different perspectives on the topic. In the end, I believe in the power of long form conversations to heal divides by furthering understanding of human nature, of human history and the full diversity of the human experience. This is the Lex Friedman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Randall Kennedy. You wrote a book whose title is the N Word spelled out with a hard R at the end. So let's start with the history of this word. What is the history of the N word?

The word you're referring to is nigger. The book that you're referring to is the Strange Career of a Troublesome Word. The word dates back to the 16th, 17th century. It's got a long lineage, in other words, basically Latin, basically Spanish, basically nig, black in various formulations. We don't know actually how the term nigger became a slur. So there were words that were close to N, I g g e r that were used in various ways. For instance, nigg u h has been was used, N I g g u r was used. And sometimes it was used in a way that seemed to be just purely descriptive. We do know that by the early 19th century it had become a slur. It had become a derogatory word about which people complained. But exactly how that came about, not altogether clear.

So it's been 20 years since you've written the book. What have you. What wisdom have you gained about this word since writing the book? And maybe having to interact with people, having to read, having to feel the response to the book.

This book has generated a lot of controversy. I thought it would. It's probably generated more controversy than I had anticipated. It has certainly generated more. More different sorts of experiences than I had anticipated. So for instance, I did not think that writing this book would prompt people to ask me to be an expert witness in cases. And over the past 20 years, I've been an expert witness in a number of different cases. I've been an expert witness in case. In a murder case, in various cases of assault. I've been an expert witness in cases involving tort cases, intentional infliction of emotional distress. I've been an expert witness in a number of employment cases. I had not anticipated that. Nor had I anticipated the extent to which people would get in trouble for using my book. Every year there are teachers who are suspended or who are fired because they will excerpt a chapter of my book. Let's imagine a. And this is not. I'm not imagining things. This has happened. A teacher is teaching, for instance, the Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn. The word nigger appears in that book over 200 times. The teacher, trying to be earnest, trying to be sensible, trying to be serious, will excerpt a part of my book to acquaint students with the history of the word and maybe the history of controversy involving the use of the word. In this particular novel. The teacher will give it out, hand it out to the teachers, hand it out to students. And there have been a number of teachers who've been suspended or worse because of that. Students will get upset, go home, tell their parents. Their parents will storm to the school and say that this is terrible. The teacher is using the word nigger in an offensive way. And oftentimes administrators will basically abandon the teacher. And whenever this comes to my attention, I write. I'll write the superintendent of schools, or I'll write the principal, or sometimes I'll write an opinion editorial piece for the local newspaper. But every year there are teachers who are disciplined for using my book. I had not anticipated that.

And what is the nature of the letter or the op ed that you write on? Why they shouldn't be disciplined or if they. To the degree they should be or shouldn't be.

There has not been one case. There's not been one case that has come to my attention in which it was even remotely sensible for the teacher to be disciplined. And what I say is that, number one, frankly, I go through, what I write is almost a synopsis of my book. Number one, this is an important word in American history. It is a word that is explosive. That's why people get so upset. It's a word that's volatile. It's a word that has typically been used in a terrible way. It's a word that is part of the soundtrack of racial terrorism in the United States. So people ought to know about this word. I mean, if you're interested in knowing the real history of the United States, if you're interested in knowing about lynching, if you're interested in knowing about the way in which black people have been terrorized in the United States, you need to know this word. You need to know that history. So you need to know why it is that people are upset about the word. But that's not. But it doesn't end there. You have to know that. And if you know that, then that knowledge should equip you to be careful. It should equip you to know that you know, to know the range of contexts in which this word appears. But again, it doesn't just end there, because especially young people, you tell that to young people and they nod, they read, they understand that. But then. But then what? But then they turn on their radios and they turn on, you know, they listen to Spotify, they listen to their. Some of their favorite entertainers. They listen to Dr. Dre, they listen to the ghetto boys. They listen to, you know, Snoop, and they listen to nwa. What do they hear? They listen to stand up comedians. They listen to Dave Chappelle, they listen to Katt Williams. What do they hear? They hear the word nigger or nigga being used in a lot of different ways. And so they need to know about that as well. What are people doing? How does one explain the fact that Dick Gregory. Dick Gregory was a comedian, activist, friend of Martin Luther King, Jr. A true activist. I mean, he had a flourishing career as an entertainer that he abandons in order to struggle for racial justice throughout the United States and including the Deep South. How does one explain the fact that he wrote several memoirs, but his first memoir is called Nigger A Memoir. How does one explain that? How does one explain the way in which. How does one explain Richard Pryor? Richard Pryor's best album is that Nigger's Crazy. Well, was Richard Pryor trying to put down black people? How does one explain that? One can only explain that by getting deeper into the word, by understanding that, yes, this is a word that has been used in a derogatory way. This is a word that has been used to put people down. This is a word that has been used to terrorize people. You. You got to know that. But you also have to know that this is a word that has also been put to other uses. There are artists, there are entertainers who have used this word, like Dick Gregory used it to put up a mirror to American society and say, look at this word and look at the terrible way in which it's been used. We don't want you to look away. No, don't look away. We're not. No euphemism. No asterisks. No N word. No nigger. Now, we want you to look at that, and we want to talk about that. James Baldwin. James Baldwin. There was a documentary about James Baldwin a couple of years ago, highly lauded documentary. The title that was given in this documentary was I Am not yout Negro. That's not what James Baldwin said. Anybody can go to YouTube right now. Take a look. James Baldwin said, I am not your nigger. And then he went on to talk about that. Well, you know, James Baldwin wasn't. Again, he wasn't trying to cover up anything. He wanted people to face the facts of American life. And it seems to me that if you're a teacher and you want to have your students face the facts about American life, well, you've got to grapple with the word nigger. Now, let me just quickly say, you know, teachers have a tough job, and if we're talking about students, of course there's a wide range of students. Am I saying that one ought to give my book to kindergarteners? No. Kindergarteners are probably not ready for such a book. Third graders, probably. No, not third grade. If we're talking, however, about people in the 10th grade, do I think the 10th graders can read my book? Yeah, sure. Absolutely. 11th graders. 12th graders. People in college. There are people in college. There are people in college. There are people in law schools. Teachers in law schools have been disciplined because the word nigger has come out of a teacher's mouth. Why? In a couple of cases recently, teacher would be reading a court opinion. The word appears in the court opinion. The teacher pronounces the word. Ah. You know, students get up, leave in a huff report the teacher. There's some instances in which teachers have been under those Circumstances have been disciplined. In my view, that's bad, and people ought to say it's bad. It's bad pedagogically. And frankly, in many of these instances, it's not only bad, it's stupid. And I don't mind saying that I think that some of these instances in which teachers have been disciplined, absolutely stupid. People say, well, the teacher used the word. Excuse me, Use the word. It'd be one thing. It'd be one thing if a teacher looked at a student and called the student nigger. You know, get out of here, Nigger. That'd be one. That'd be, you know, fine. Discipline. That's teacher. That's bad. But that's not what's going on. You don't have. None of these are cases in which you have an individual who is a stranger to another individual and this word just sort of comes out. No, what we have here is a class involving a person who is a teacher interacting with students, talking about subjects in which it would be perfectly understandable why this word would emerge as a subject of conversation. Now, under those circumstances, it's somehow wrong for a teacher to utter this word. In my view, the answer is no. And, you know, I said that 20 years ago. I say it even more emphatically now.

Still, it is one of the most powerful words in the English language. And there's a kind of responsibility that we as humans should have with words. Yes, with statements. That word, if not used skillfully, if not used competently, even when just read from a legal transcript, can do more harm than good.

I agree with what you say. Yes, words are powerful. Words do matter. And so I am certainly not suggesting that people be lax. I'm not suggesting that people be irresponsible. It's precisely because words matter, however, that we need to be willing to face words and grapple with words and talk about words and talk about the history of words precisely because words matter. And among other things, it seems to me it's important to understand that words can mean different things in different contexts. It's not the case that a word means the same thing in every context. The word discriminating. Sometimes it's a very bad thing that person discriminates. And when, you know, again, you know, intonation of voice means something. If I say that person discriminates, and I'm obviously being disapproving implicitly, what I'm saying is that person distinguishes between things on an unjustifiable basis, and that's a bad thing. On the other hand, that person has Discriminating taste. Oh, that means something very different. That means that the person differentiates in a way that shows that they understand the difference between excellent good and not so good. And we think that that's a good thing. So words can have different, you know, words can mean different things in different contexts. It seems to me that that's something that actually we ought to recognize. We ought to recognize and talk about.

Well, some words enter this territory of being a slur, and it seems like when they cross the line into being a slur, the number of contexts in which it's okay to mention it exponentially decreases. Right.

No, no, I'm going to resist that a little bit because the whole idea of, you know, slurs, Slurs change. Yankee was a slur. Yankee was a slur in, you know, 18th century United States slur today, you know, New York Yankees. I'm a Yankee fan. I'm a Yankee queer. Queer, you know. You know, and this is in. In my lifetime, there was a time, you know, that you queer and people would really run away from it. And that was, you know, a bad thing. And then, thank goodness, gay liberation movement. Gay liberation movement. Basically, we're not going to run away from this. We're going to. We're going to grab this slur and we're going to affix it to ourselves and we are going to repurpose it. Now, the word queer is again, you know, can it be a slur? Yeah, it can be a slur. Doesn't have to be. And it seems to me that it's important for people to know about how a word, a symbol, in some contexts can be a slur in some contexts, doesn't have to be. So the whole idea of what's a slur, that's a complicated idea in and of itself.

That's very complicated. It's, if I may say, almost fascinating how language evolves. But if we were to kind of have a minute by minute evaluation of the most powerful, intensely slur like words in the world. I think the N word with a hard R at the end, which is the title of your book, is number one on that list.

Well, I. Probably so. And of course, that's one of the reasons why I wrote a little book about it.

Yeah, but it hasn't even since you wrote a little book about it, it seems like it's maintained its number one status. You mentioned queer. It maybe queer was in the top 20, I don't know, for a while, and now it's sliding into the top thousand. And the N Word is at the top.

You're absolutely right. The origins of this book. I clearly remember I was at my office and I was thinking about lecture topics. And I get invited to give lectures from time to time. And I was thinking, well, you know, what might make for an interesting lecture. And all of a sudden, the word nigger popped into my mind. Now, this is a word I've grown up with, this word. I mean, there's never been a time in my life when, at least in my conscious life, in which I've. In which this word's been absent. I mean, in my household, for instance. In my household, my parents are black people. My parents were refugees from the Jim Crow South. I was born in the deep South, South Carolina. In my household, I heard the word nigger used in every possible way. I heard it used as a Slurpee. I also heard it used with respect to people who were praised. You know, my father. I clearly remember my father, whom I revere. That's the smartest nigga in the world. That's the bravest nigger in the world. That's the baddest nigger I know. He wasn't putting people down. This is the way he talked. And I grew up hearing this word in various ways. And so I was thinking to myself, God, where did this word come from? And one of the first things I did, I clearly remember just jumping up out of my seat, running up to the library. Oxford English Dictionary. When did this word first appear in English? What was the history of the word? And then what really sort of grabbed my attention is I went. I get my computer going, and I asked the computer system, give me every case, every federal court case in which this word appears. Thousands of cases. And then I said, oh, my goodness, this is really. And, you know, this is really interesting. And then I started just cataloging all the different cases. There came a point, I'd say probably about a month into this. I compared the usage. I compared the number of times nigger came up with other sorts of slurs. So, for instance, kike, K I K e. Long time, you know. You know, derogatory word for Jews. How many times does this word come up? There was a time in which the word appeared, but nothing like the infamous N word. Nothing. And then I, you know, what about wetback? What about. And then I just, you know, let me. Let me just take a look at all the other slurs. Nothing came close, not even remotely close to nigger. And I think it has something to do with. I think it has something to do with the uniqueness of the color line, particularly as it pertains to African Americans, I think that the fact that nigger sort of occupies such a unique status among slurs, I think that's a reflection of the unique stigma that has been imposed on African Americans.

It's hard to know the chicken or the egg, why one word is able to so distinctly and clearly encapsulate this struggle between races that is throughout American history. I mean, they didn't have to probably be so. But it came to be that way.

It became that. Not only that. Not only that, but of course, the nigger spurred other slurs. So Arabs, sand niggers, the Irish, the niggers of Europe, women, the niggers of the world.

John Lennon even has a song.

That's right. Well, I think Yoko Ono, I think, had something to do with that song. So, I mean, it is a slur that has spawned other slurs. And again, this is. That's why, you know, as you indicated a moment ago, this is a quite unique term.

But are you conscious, are you deliberate in you saying this word? So let me just say from a personal experience, maybe my upbringing, where I came from, in my daily life, I don't think I've ever heard that word with a hard R said as often used clearly in my life said. I've heard it today more than I have ever heard in my entire life. And I think there's a. A few people who listen to this. They'll be listening to this and be very uncomfortable. I would say not in a bad way, probably in a good way. I'm uncomfortable now, and I am almost introspecting and trying to figure out why am I uncomfortable. And I think even the title of your book is making me think that. Just. Just looking into my own mind and trying to understand, wow, words of power. And why does it have so much power. But are you deliberate in that action? And by the way, not only are the people listening to this sweating, this will be on YouTube in part. And YouTube, the people on the other side will be sweating. What do we do with this?

Yeah. Well, am I deliberate yet? The answer is yes. And let me unpack that a little bit first. That's right. I mean, am I deliberate? Yeah. I deliberately wrote a book called the Strange Career of a Troublesome Word. And, you know, was that deliberate? Yeah, that was quite deliberate.

But the title could have been N.

Word versus the title could have been N word. Sure. The title could have been N word. The title could have been a book about a word that causes Pain to many people. I could have named it that. There are many titles I could have used. Did I want a title that would be provocative? Did I want a title that would grab people? The answer to that is yes. I'm a writer, I want people to read what I write. Was I being sensationalistic? Well I mean if you want to put it like that, yes. I'm not embarrassed to say that. I mean I'm sure that when people write books they think really hard about their titles and they try to get a title that will grab people's attention. I know people respect people very deeply who never, as a matter of principle never utter this word. And I've talked with people, I've had people say I read your book, let's talk about it. But let's be very clear, I'm not going to use the word. I've had many conversations with people who've asked me not to use the word. I was on a. The first time this came up was a book tour. It was 20 years ago when the book first came out and I was on one of these call in shows early in the morning time, came to call in 7 o'. Clock. I call in at 5:07 right before I go on the host of the show says oh by the way, we have a strict policy here at the station, we never use this word. And I said well gosh, I wish you had told me this earlier. Does this mean then that you're never going to pronounce fully the title of my book? And she said that's right. And I had to make a choice right then and there. Am I going to go on or am I not?

What did you do?

I went on and I abided by the station's rules and fine. We had a perfectly fine conversation and there is a place for euphemism. The American language is a very supple language. There are lots of words that one can use. I do not get angry with people who don't. They say as a matter of principle they're not going to use the word. Fine. I'm willing to. I understand where they're coming from and often I will defer to their wishes. All I say is I want people to understand where I'm coming from. I'm not just using this word willy nilly. There's a pedagogical reason, there is a reason for why I'm saying what I'm saying. There is a reason why I use the word.

Can you make the case why using the word is a good idea? And can you make. Can you steel man the case? Why it's a bad idea. Maybe you've heard from some critics.

Yes.

Who said that you saying this word out loud is actually causing a lot of harm. Not like harm because people's feelings are hurt, but increasing the amount of racism and hate in the world.

Yeah, critics. Let's start with the critics one again, going back to the. When the book was first published, I remember going to the first bookstore I went to and I talked about the book. Had a very, you know, talk, ask questions. And the last comment wasn't a question, but the last comment was made by an elderly black man. I called on him and he said, I've listened to what you've had to say and I appreciate what you've had to say. But he said, but I remain unconvinced. And I remain unconvinced because when I was coming up, this word was used to put me in the back of the bus. And this word was used to prevent me from voting. And this was the word that was used to justify me never being called as a juror. So to me, this word has only one meaning. It's a terrible meaning. I'm never going to use the word. It hurts me when I hear people use the word, especially those who don't know anything about the, you know, really about the history of it. And he went on to say, I think that your book, though well intended, is probably going to be seen by some people as giving them permission to use the word. And then he stopped. And I thought there was a lot of power behind that gentleman's comment. I think that what he said is probably correct insofar as there are probably some people who read the, you know, read the book. There probably some people who are listening to our conversation right now who will think that I'm giving people permission to use the word. You know, I have said that I'm. I'm not. I want people to understand the word. I think that there is a burden that comes from whenever you utter a word like this. But that's a critique, and I think there's strength to that critique. I'm not going to say that that's a ridiculous critique. I think that there is something to that. And by the way, I should say, and that's why I would say to anyone. That's right. If this word comes out of your mouth, you are taking on real responsibility. So for years, it doesn't happen so much now, but they were, I'd say, for about the first five years after this book was published, I would get an email at least once a week, and it would begin like this, you know, dear Professor Kennedy, I read your book and I'm calling to ask you a question. And as soon as I saw that, I knew what the question was gonna be. And what the person would say is the following. I like rap. And then I knew what was coming. I like rap. I'm white, and I have black friends, and we listen to rap, and we're driving in the car and we're. We're listening to the song. We start humming along and singing along, and my black friends sing along. And when nigger or nigga comes up, they sing. And I don't know what to do. Is it wrong for me to sing along? This happened so often that I'd say about. After the. About the 10th time I got in such an email, I wrote a form letter because I didn't want to just take up time writing sort of crafting letter after letter after letter. So I wrote a form letter, and basically what I said was, listen, number one, I'm flattered that you're asking me, but number one, you should have conversation with your friend. Number two, no matter what your friend says, let me put something else for you to consider. Let's suppose for the sake of discussion, that your friend says, oh, doesn't bother me. I know where you're coming from. We're just enjoying the music. I don't think that this is a racist utterance coming out of your mouth. Let's suppose that your friend says that that doesn't end matters, because let's imagine the following. Let's imagine that you're in a. A theater and you're waiting for the, you know, film to start, and you're just, you know, talking with your friends or singing with your friends, or just, you know, kicking back with your friends, and they're talking about nigger this or nigger this. And you say it. You, the white boy, say it. And the next thing you feel is a fist, a big fist in your mouth that has been launched by a person that you did not see who was right behind you. All this person saw was a white person saying nigga, and the next thing, pow. That's not some sort of overheated scenario coming from some law professor's mind. That is a very plausible scenario. So you have to be worried about lots of things, including mistake. So my advice to you is be prudent. I would stay clear of the word unless. Unless you're very certain. And unless if you're called on it. You feel you're in a position to defend yourself, defend what you're doing. But the prudent thing would be to stay clear.

There's so many questions I want to ask there. One is about the violence and the legal aspect of that. It's very interesting you raised that in the book. But I do want to bring up something I probably disagree with you on, which is you say that there's not a significant difference between the different variations of the N word. Or maybe you don't. I just listened to a bunch of your interviews. So there's the version with ER at the end, version with a GA at the end, and then G, R, O at the end. These are all different versions. And I feel like in that list of powerful words, you know, I feel like there's a distinction.

Yes.

I feel that the number one spot is the one with the hard R. And I don't know, maybe you can try to shed light, but I feel like the one that ends in ga is really far down the list in terms of modern culture. So this is. We talked about the evolution of the words and the word queer, for example, it feels like because maybe because of rap, because of comedians, because it's become much more. It lost so much of its power. Well, you don't think so?

No, I think there's a difference between nigger and nigger. I mean, people make a distinction between them. And I think that to the extent that lots of people make a distinction between them, I think, you know, just as a sociological fact, they are different. I think that people who get upset if somebody, especially white people. So, you know, if a white person says nigga, and they're, you know, and they. And they're, you know, sort of criticized about it, and they say, well, I didn't say nigger, I said nigga. Believe me, I think most, you know, most people who are mad at them are going to stay mad at them. Now you. You raised the word, you know, so nigger and nigga. I would put in a very different category than Negro.

Educate me here.

Well, yeah, sure. Happy to. Negro is a. Also controversial. It's also controversial, but Negro has never been viewed by a substantial number of people as a derogatory term, at least with the same amount of animus, the same amount of. It's a very different kind of word than nigger or nigga. I mean, after all, I mean, Negro, Martin Luther King Jr. All of his great oratory. Negro, you read the work of the great W.E.B. du Bois. Negro, you read the Work of my boss. For instance, I use the word Negro. I use African American, Black, Afro American, but I also use the word Negro. Now there are some people who get really mad at me because of, you know, when I use the word Negro. And so, for instance, there's students who've gotten really quite exercised and they'll say, you know, I'll be giving a lecture and, you know, a hand will go up, I'll call on somebody and they'll say, listen, are you using the word Negro? And it's purely because of the historical time period that you're using. So is that why you're using it or are you using it in your own voice? And often I'll say, well, I'm using it in my own voice. And they'll say, well, I'm offended. We think that this is, that's old timey. It's derogatory. When this first came up, I, I said, let's pause for a moment and I'll take that under advisement and let me look into this. And I ended up writing an essay about it, an essay about the history of the terms that black people have used to describe themselves. And it's a long list. Black, colored, Afro American, African American, Negro, et cetera. So I go through all that and I said, now let me just tell you, I know for certain when I started using the word Negro often in writing. I can date it. 1983. The summer of 1983 is when I started using the word Negro in my professional life as a lawyer. And I did it for a very specific reason. I did it because my boss demanded that I Negro capital in. Now, who was my boss? My boss in the summer of 1983 was Associate justice of the United States Supreme Court, Thurgood Marshall, known as Mr. Civil Rights. Now, it seems to me you're telling me that this word is so out of bounds that this word is derogatory. Nobody should ever use this word. Does the fact that Thurgood Marshall demanded that I use this word, does that complicate things a little bit? And so I think that people again, ought to know more. I've encountered students who don't know very much, but who want to lecture me on word usage because they know three sentences about current fashion and hold it, you know, hold it. By the way, I, I push it further. I sometimes use the word colored. And then some people really don't like that. Colored. Well, you know, there's, there's a, there's an organization still very much alive in American life and law. The national association for the Advancement of Colored People, the naacp, they haven't changed their name. And as far as I'm concerned, it's a wonderful organization. There are people who have used the word colored. That's what my grandmother used. Colored perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned. So again, there are lots of different words that one can use. You can use different formulations. I understand that people have different preferences. Fine. I have my preferences at least know where I'm coming from.

Still, words have power and they have power to hurt. And there's. There's a lot of reasons that I could see to justify the use of the word in its full form, as you're saying, when in this conversation, as you're using it, one of them is perhaps fighting for the freedom to be able to use those kinds of words. So let me ask you about freedom of speech and the censorship of the word. Should the use of the N word be censored, for example, on social networks? So we can come up with different places. We can say university campuses, maybe in op eds or.

I don't know.

But I think social networks currently is a very interesting place. There's a lot of conversations that are happening on them. There's the ability, the technical capability to sentence, to remove the ability of people to use the word. Do you think they should be allowed to use the word on Twitter, for example?

My response is, it all depends on the way in which the word is being used. If the word is being used to intimidate, if the word is being used to. Terrorize, then no. Along with lots of other words, by the way. I mean, you can have. I could use the word, I suppose, gentleman. I mean, I'm sure that I could conjure up a way in which that word could be used in a, you know, intimidating way. So I'm, I'm. Should. Would I be happy if there was a technology that always blanked this word? N I, G G E R. I would be against that. For one thing, it would erase the name of one of my books. And I think that, you know, and I'm. I think that the book actually has a lot of useful information, makes some useful points. And by the way, let's imagine a world in which there was a technology that blanked every time nigger appeared. You would have. What would that do to novels by James Baldwin, by Toni Morrison, by. What would that do to the speeches of Malcolm X, Martin Luther King Jr. What would that do to the comedy albums of Richard Pryor, Katt Williams, Dave Chappelle, you know, what would that. If one sort of plays that out, would one want to have all of those blanks in important literary and political performances? No, I don't want such blanks. What I want, I would want for people. I would want the word to be there and for people to understand how to deal with this word. And by the way, you've used the word hurt an awful lot. So let's talk about hurt. I think we need to be more careful with the way in which we deal with hurt, because people can be justifiably hurt. You can have justifiably hurt feelings. And if somebody has justifiably hurt feelings, I then think that we should turn to the person who has hurt those feelings. Feelings and say you have acted wrongly because this person's feelings are justifiably hurt in relationship to what you've done. On the other hand, there are people who have hurt feelings and frankly, it's unjustified. So just imagine the following. Let's imagine that I give a talk about the greatness of Martin Luther King Jr. And then let's imagine that a Ku Klux Klansman comes up to me after my talk and says, oh, you have now hurt my feelings. What am I supposed to be? Am I supposed to apologize? Am I supposed to be regretful that my talk about the greatness of Martin Luther King Jr. Has hurt hurt the feelings of the Klansmen? No, my response is going to be, you know, you need to reevaluate your feelings because actually your feeling of hurt is unjustified. And no, no, there's no apology coming.

From me, but there's a kind of line and perhaps the gray area and maybe the word hurt has been overused because if you try to avoid hurting a small fraction of society that is mentally weak in a way where everything hurts them, that's. That's the wrong way to build a society. But if we flip that upside down and say, trying to maximize the amount of love in the world and think about decisions we make in terms of language we use to try to maximize the amount of love and not just short term, but long term, okay? And that's where freedom of speech is very powerful because it's a short term painful thing often, but long term beneficial thing, just having freedom. And so there's where the question of the N word starts to come in. How much. How do we think about its use on the Internet, on college campuses in a way that maximizes the amount of love and compassion and camaraderie in the world?

I think that's good. And I would associate myself with your vision. How can we maximize. How can we maximize love? No, I love that. I think that's great. So let's take that on. I doubt that the way of doing that is to. Erase the infamous inward. I doubt that the way of doing that is to say to people, we understand that your feelings are really hurt, and we're going to do all that we can to avoid this symbolic action. You know, maybe this word or maybe this symbol. We're going to really. We're going to do all that we can to suppress it so that we can have a more loving universe. I doubt that that's the way to do it. I think a better way to do it. I think a better way to do it would be to fully educate people, including educate people such that. You see that over there? That is the uniform of the Ku Klux Klan. I want you to be educated about the uniform of the Ku Klux Klan so that you can look at the uniform of the Ku Klux Klan and know what it's about. You're not terrorized by it. You're not immediately, you don't see it and sink to your knees and start wailing and crying. You don't see it and say, I'm traumatized. No, you don't do any of that. You see it, you understand it. If somebody asks you about it, you're fully prepared to talk about. Seems to me that that attitude, that poise, that strength, that knowledge would be a better way of equipping us to have a more loving world. And by the way, just so you know, I would say that about the swastika. I would say it about the infamous N word. I would say it about all of the things that we're talking about. It would be better for people to be educated so that they are not traumatized.

So to you, the N word should.

Not be.

Removed from Huck Finn, Adventures of Huck Finn or from the works of James Baldwin and Toni Morrison.

Not at all. In fact, it seems to me that the bowlerization of these great artists, literary work, as far as I'm concerned, highly objectionable. Highly objectionable.

When is it okay for a white man to say the N word with a hard R?

Well, you know, here we need to focus on the word say. Is it ever okay for anyone, you know, black, white, pink, yellow, I don't care. Red, orange. Is it okay for anyone to use this word in a way to put down people, to terrorize people, to intimidate people? Answer. No, you know, and I'd say that black person I've seen, I mean, by the way, I've seen black people use this word to try to intimidate, put down other black people.

Bad.

So I'm against it with a black person. White person doesn't matter. On the other hand. On the other hand, imagine. Imagine a white person who is. Giving a lecture on the history of American racism, a lecture on the history of American racism, and in giving that lecture quotes the. White racist politicians who until fairly recently in American life, use the infamous N word. So imagine a white history professor giving a lecture about the history of American racism and says, in 1948, this is what so and so running for the presidency of the United States said, and then quotes a paragraph or two in which the infamous N word is featured. Is that bad? No, that's not bad. No, that's not bad. Sounds like a perfectly good lecture. And I'm glad that you put the infamous N word in there so that we can see that as recently as 1948, people who are running for the presidency of the United States openly used the word. That does not bother me. I'll say this, too. Now, you know, somebody says, well, you know, nice job, Kennedy, but you've, you've, you've, you know, you've limited.