Roger Gracie: Greatest Jiu Jitsu Competitor of All Time | Lex Fridman Podcast #343

In my mind, I have to tap everybody else. Winning is not enough.

The following is a conversation with Hajir Gracie, widely considered to be the greatest Jiu Jitsu competitor of all time. This is the Lex Friedman podcast to support it. Please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Hajir Gracie. Let's start with possibly the greatest match in Jiu Jitsu history. Your second match against Pucesha. Let's go through the details. Let's go through the whole thing. So the walk leading up to it, you always do this walk. It's epic walk you post on Instagram, Hanzo posted on Instagram, this calm walk towards the mat. Well, let's go to that match in particular. What was going through your mind? You've been away from competition, facing probably one of the greatest, and at that time, many people considered the greatest Jiu Jitsu competitor of all time in Bichecha. Here's the old man, the old timer getting back out there. What were you thinking?

Yeah, I think that's the first time since probably I got my black belt that I wasn't the favorite walk into a fight. I have to say, like, a lot of people thought consider him the favorite. I mean, understandable. You know, I was out of competition for a while. He was just winning everything. So, you know, saying about the walk, like, for me, you know, the fight starts way before the referee say go. You know, it start. It's all the focus and concentration that I think is very important for me to start. Before, like, you know, I almost walk blind to the mat many times. I passed like great friends, and I couldn't see anyone. You know, they're trying to talk to you, and I'm like, I'm 100% focused on my opponent already, even though that I cannot even see him in front of me. So I think that's, for me, was always very important to try to clear my mind out from everything.

Are you visualizing the opponent or just clearing?

Not at that. Not at that time.

Is there. What's. What's in your head? Is it like a calm river with birds chirping?

What? It's blank?

Just blank. Darkness.

Yeah, darkness.

Okay. And that's what we see in that calmness, is just blankness. How hard is it to achieve that blankness?

It's difficult to say because I think I don't remember when I'll say probably. As a black belt, I try to focus like that not to think, because it's probably something you learn is the more you think, the more nervous you get. And there's nothing that you're going to gain by thinking of the fight or the possibilities, what you can do, what can go wrong, what can go right. Because it's unpredictable, you have absolutely no idea. It's impossible to predict the fight.

And you discover that if you just let those nervous feelings go and empty your mind, it actually is pretty effective.

It is. It makes you feel better. It's, you know, you. You kind of control your emotion, control the adrenaline on your body up to a level. So it absolutely helps you, you know, focus in the fight.

I've learned that in jiu jitsu and in general in life, that whenever something feels really shitty, you can just like, take that thought and not think about it. Yeah, like, I do that. Like on long runs or like a fast run or.

Yeah.

In jiu jitsu, especially now you're getting older, out of shape. Like that feeling of exhaustion. Well, you can always get to the feeling of exhaustion. You could just not think about it.

Yeah.

Not think about being exhausted.

Yeah, just.

And that somehow relaxes you. I think maybe in the face of exhaustion, all the fears start to creep in. Maybe your muscles tighten up. I don't know. This is for the. The amateur person. But it's kind of funny how you can just take that thought and let go of it. So you get. As a black belt competitor, you get used to. You get good at letting go of any thoughts.

Yeah. When you mentioned to exhaustion is. That's another good example of it. It's, you know, there's a lot of times in the fight you're getting tired and you're getting pretty tired. So it's like the last thing you want to think of it is how tight you are. It doesn't matter. Because it doesn't. What are you going to do, quit? I mean, it doesn't matter. It's how tight you are.

Yeah. There's no value thinking about it.

There's no value. You just have to go through it.

So when you're like many minutes into the match and you're slowly moving, as you sometimes do, tying your belt, catching your breath, you're not thinking about anything. You're trying to let go of thinking.

I'm trying to, like, to save everything, to defy. Like, nothing goes to waste. It's, you know, every move unnecessary is just going to make you more tired or it's going to take something out of you. Like, you know, I try to calculate every single move I make, save as much energy as I can so I can fully, you know, be focused 100% in the fight with no waste, especially energy wise.

And that's instinctual, like minimizing the amount of moves. You're not like explicitly thinking, should I do this or not? It's just, just don't move unless it's absolutely required.

Yeah. Because fight is. You cannot really, there's not really time to think much. You know, it's your instinct are playing. It's like it's, you know, you already have your, you know, your weapons. Let's say, you know, the things that you do is just you wait for the perfect moment. The beauty of it is, you know, there's the right moment to everything. If you feel one second too late doesn't work or you get messy, so it's, you know, you trying to catch that moment. That's it, you know. And for that you have to be fully focused in what you're doing because one second is you out. It won't work.

But you're not exactly known as somebody that moves super quickly. So the, so the moment, it's not about how quickly you move, it's about the right moment.

So you can move slowly. Yeah, yeah. It's not like speed, it's not like you have to move the speed of light. It's the move itself at that precise moment. It doesn't have to be super fast because your opponent's not moving super fast. You know, so it's a combination of moving between you and him.

I mean the same thing happens in judo and the movement can be really small.

Yeah, Judo is a bit more explosive. You know, the moves are slightly faster, so it does require a bit more explosiveness in judo.

But even just the right timing for an off balance, just a little tough.

It's not that, you know, moving the speed is not going to count that much. It's the timing that you initiate that move.

You see that with foot sweeps. There's nothing more beautiful than not like a Olympic level athletes going at it in the Olympics. And a perfect. And it's just. And you see one man's life flash before his eyes and realize like I'm supposed to be the top three person in the world that I just find they don't. They have this look on their face like I don't know what just happened. It's beautiful to see. You don't see that. I guess you see that in boxing, knockouts and stuff like that. You don't know what the hell just happened.

Yeah. Is that precise moment of movement that you get caught like is, is that one Split second, that's it.

Do you get that in Jiu jitsu at all? Because judo has, because of the explosiveness, because of the point scoring system that incentivizes these giant throws, has these moments where everything just turns in a single moment. Do you have that in Jiu jitsu?

Not really. Because Dennis, points, you get like, you know, two points. So it's because I think regarding the submission, it's not just one precise movement that change everything. I think judo is the takedown that counts as a submission. Like Ippon fight over jujitsu, don't have that. So you will, you will score points. But I think in terms of submission, you need to get to in a dominant position first and then the submission will come slowly.

It's a process.

Yeah.

Okay, let's go back to that guy with his mind. So actually, in the weeks leading up to it, in the days, in the hours, in the minutes, is there some fear in you leading up to this?

I mean, I'm not going to say, you know, that I'm fearless because everybody fears something. You know, the fear is there, but it's like how much you let that control you. I think I was a lot more confident than fearful, for sure. Walk into that fight, like, I, I was pretty confident that, yeah, I could beat him.

Where's the source of that confidence?

My belief on me this, okay, I can take the word not.

You can take anyone in the world. But is there specific strategic, like, you know, talking to Danaher, he believes that there's no such thing as confidence. Or rather the way you get confidence is through data like that you have proven yourself effective in previous situations. But with Buceca, you don't, you don't have much data. It was a very, the first time you faced him was a very tough. That was also one of the greatest matches of all time.

I.

That's very tough. So doesn't that creep in like that doubt because you don't, you don't have enough data to be confident based on.

Yeah, I mean, okay, if I never have fought before, you know, suddenly walk into a fight with someone like that, then would I be that confident? I mean, probably no. You know, so that history of what, you know, what we've been doing, what you've been achieving, does gives you confidence. If that was my first fight ever, I wouldn't probably, I wouldn't be that long. But the time off, it doesn't matter.

Doesn't matter.

Doesn't matter.

You don't have the fear or the actual physical experience, the psychological Experience of being rusty, of being out of the.

Combination, that will come out on training.

So you. Okay, so you simulate some aspect of that in the training.

The trainee will tell you how you are.

Okay. Did you increase the intensity of the training leading up to this?

Yeah, I mean, I trained, I trained normal, let's say compared to the first fight, the second was a lot more confidence because, you know, like I said on training, the training for the first fight, they were terrible.

So what do you mean?

I think I was focusing MMA for a while, for a couple months and I wasn't really focusing the gi. And you know, by the time I accept the fight and start training, like all my responses on training were off. Like all my training partners that I used to train with that I destroyed, I mean, now they like, they're beating me, you know, it's like I cannot beat them the way I was used to. But, you know, so I knew something was not right for the first fight. But then it's, you know, no points, it's submission or draw.

So, yeah, for people who don't know, it was in Mutter Morris, which is a 20 minute match, submission only. So there's no. The winner is determined only by submission, otherwise it's a draw.

So physically I was, I wasn't myself on that fight. I was tired and my body wasn't responding anyway, so that, so the confident was different from the first. The second, I think I was confident enough that I wouldn't get tapped out on the 1st, that I was still going to fight because he has to tap me out to beat me. And I trust on my defense, I'm confident enough on my defense that he will not tap me out. But in terms of winning, you know, walking to the second fight, I was a lot more confident.

What can you say about that feeling when something's not right? Isn't that a thing that breaks people this way?

It breaks. It's weird. Like people crack, they give up. You know, this, it's a big test because it's, it's like being really tired. It's the same thing. It's like a lot of people crack because they just feel they cannot give in more. There's not having nothing more to give, so they just like give up. It's too hard.

So what do you do? Just again, take the thoughts out.

There is no giving up. I mean, I don't mind, I don't care. Like, just giving up is not an option. It's not.

That's always the way you thought.

Yeah.

Ball, Jiu jitsu.

Yeah, I've never gave up. I mean, I tapped. It's, you know, not giving up is not, not tapping. That's just stupid. Especially, you know, during training. Like, it's, I get caught, I tap. I've never ever hurt myself by not tapping. I get, you get angry, you know, train hard, you know, improve, make it, make yourself better. You got caught. Accept that you made a mistake, give up, tap and try harder. So you know, the not tapping, it's. You're sacrificing your body and you know you'll never be the same. Like if you let your elbow pop, the elbow will never, ever be the same, ever. You let yourself go to sleep, your resistance drops. So everybody has a, has a limit of resistance until they, you know, to resist a choke before you pass out. The moment that you go to sleep, that resistance will dropped. According to.

I've never heard anyone say that. That's awesome. So that's true. So that's the reason. Because people usually say it's no, you can.

It's the same. Or you're getting knocked out. You get knocked out the first time your resistance dropped, your jaw gets weaker.

So just for the record, I've never gone to sleep in, which means my resistance is high. Right. I don't know.

Must be. Oh, your defense is pretty good.

I don't know about that because it doesn't make sense to me. Or maybe in my case, I think my understanding of when I'm screwed is pretty good.

Yeah.

Like there's no, you know, you're in trouble. Yeah. One of the things I regret the most about my Jiu Jitsu journey is not having given enough time to being in really bad positions. Like, the better I got, I think the less I started being in bad positions, which is because you spa.

That's like the, that is how you train.

Yeah.

Because you used to just spa when you spar. Like, it's difficult to be in bad positions a lot. You train with better people. But I mean, let's say five, six minute rows. How long you're going to be in a really bad position? Not long. Right. So you don't really have time to develop. That's why people, they don't, you know, they don't train being bad position because you have to start there over and over again to be used to it.

Yeah. Or put yourself there. I just didn't have that mindset. I think, I think you start, I mean, part of the fun of Jiu Jitsu is as you get better and better, you have certain people you Go with. You have these puzzles that you figured out that you're playing, very specific details you're working out, you're trying to improve your main, like, techniques and so on. But yeah, just the percentage of time you spend being submitted or being or trying, even going against, like lower ranks, trying to escape basic submissions is low. I don't know if that's true for most people. Probably is, right?

Most people have very bad defense.

Yeah.

Because they don't allow themselves to be there. Because, I mean, who wants to get tapped? Because you will. Until you, you know, to work on your defense, of course you're going to get tapped or, you know, you're not going to escape. You're going to struggle to escape. So people, they don't want to be there.

I regret it most because of the effect it clearly had on how I competed. It was clear that my competition was constantly driven by conservative thinking, like, don't take risks. I think because of a weak defense, honestly. And I think a lot of any of the fear, like, for example, exhaustion was accompanied by fear because of weak defense. I think if I were to psychoanalyze myself and I regret it a lot. But speaking of which, I don't think anyone's ever submitted you in competition. So you're.

While I was a juvenile. Yes.

Yes. So. So when you were a young person.

Yeah. Six.

That still haunt you?

No, that's first. I was winning that fight by a large. I mean, I think by six points or four, something like that. But I was like, I was.

Don't remember it though, huh?

By the details. Yeah.

You ever beat him again?

He never competed again.

Whoever you are, please, let's. Let's do a podcast.

I know we talk about haj the whole time.

No, but what do you attribute to that too? You're saying you're confident. You're confident that the top of the world, the number one, Puchesha, would not submit you. So where is that confidence? Grounded. And what do you attribute the fact that nobody was able to submit you first?

It comes from training. You know, I train a lot. Bad position, like, my defense is good because I practice over and over again as much as I practice all my offensive position. So it's, you know, you have to train both equally, not just be in a good position, you have to be in bad. So I think that's a very strong part of my game. You know, to be a complete fighter, you know this, a complete martial artist, you have to be good in every single position, every single one. Those are that you're not you have a weakness. So it's. You know, to be complete, you should have no weakness. So that was always my. You know, I was always very particular on that. Like it's where my weakness. Where am I? Why I don't feel good at it. I. If you put me in a position to struggle, how do I escape? How do I get out? Everything. Any submission locked penny position, you know, back mount, everything. It's doesn't matter which position I practice over and over again. So that when I. If I get there in a fighting situation, I will know how to get out. At least I'll have a direction, you know, I will know this is my way out.

Do you practice both escaping the bad position and the transition into the bad position? Avoiding it. Because that's how it happens. You know, Jiu Jitsu, you start in a neutral position.

Now the transition, then it then becomes that the fight itself. It's being there is most important, is when you're there. Then you have to know how to get out. That's your weakness. How stopping the person getting that is something different. They're two different things. Either you practice one or the other.

So. But both are important, I guess. But the stopping the person is easier to practice because that comes naturally in training.

Yeah.

What was the actual process like? What was your biggest weakness throughout your. Like you just remembering what was annoying to you to figure out.

I mean, outside control is always bottom of second bottom. It's regardless how much you practice, it's not ever easy. You'll never be easy.

But it's so annoying it makes no sense.

Yeah. Someone pins you down, doesn't want to move much, is a big and strong guy, regardless of who is not going to be easy to escape. So some situations are just hard.

That must be the. Sorry to interrupt. I'm interrupting Hydro Gracie. But you just made me realize if you're really good, if you're. If you're going against like the perfect Jiu Jitsu competitor, probably side control might be one of the hardest positions. Is it the hardest position to escape?

It's one of them. If the person doesn't want to progress, it's concerned about.

So if they're pulling. Yeah, like the best pinners in the world. I mean, partially because I've just seen judo, people that know how to pin.

They go skip their side control is a nightmare. It's a nightmare. Doesn't matter how much you practice. Yeah, it's a nightmare.

And it's also just frustrating, I think. I guess it is also frustrating because A lot of people in that position will be about maintaining control, not progressing. And usually people, when they're in mount and back control, are usually trying to progress towards a submission, which opens up opportunities for escape. So what's the actual process of just time and time again putting yourself inside bottom of side control?

Yeah, over and over again, starting there, escape, back, escape, get back. If it mount you get back. Any situation outside that, stop, start again, stop, start again. And it has to be, I'll say five minutes. Because it's the repetition that will teach you. You know, if you train like three minutes on top, you have time to, you know, one thing, and then timeout is the repetition that over and over again. You know, when you try the same move over and over again, then you see what can go wrong.

And is it understanding the details of the movement or actually doing the movement and feeling it?

It's both. First you have to understand the movement and then practice. But most important thing is defense. Escape coming second, because, you know, he's attacking you, the one thing is if he's not trying to submit you, but the other one, if it is, let's say if a person is very good, has a very good attack, the first thing is defense. Not just scape and expose yourself to an even worse position, because that is very risky when you're trying to escape. You'll always expose yourself to a worse position. So avoiding that, it's, you know, first is defense, not getting caught. And then when you're escaping, don't be in a worse position.

So defense in jiu jitsu, when you're wearing a gi, what does defense entail? Is it mostly grips? Is it mostly the positioning of your hips and legs?

Is everything together? Because it's a whole body movement. It's, you know, it's a constantly moving your. Your arms, legs, body. It's. It. They. They, you know, they. They have to. Everything works together.

Going back to the mind of that guy. So confident, no fear at this point. Is there a bit of ego in there too?

Yes. Like I say, no, I'm not gonna say I'm fearless. Of course, this concerns that fight, I would have to say was probably the fight that I got nervous the most, walking in, because I knew what that meant, that fight. I mean, everything for me, all my legacy was on the line. Because if I lost that fight, though, forever would be number two.

Yeah, forever.

And I mean, Busshe is a great, great guy, great competitor. Jiu jitsu is very good, but I'm better than him. I knew that but he's competing nonstop at that point. He's a, He's a great competitor, you know, taking nothing out of him. He's super tough. Very, very tough. Very good. Is probably the best competitor in Jiu jitsu, and he won 13 times the world championship. I won 10. So as a competitor, you know, he has more titles than I do. So. But in terms of, you know, analyzing the game, I consider technically better than him. So knowing all that, everything that I build, all my legacy, it's.

If I was riding on this match.

If I lose this fight, I'm forever number two.

And none of that is going. Going through your mind.

I know. I knew. I mean, it's not at that moment that I, I already knew that. I remember just before, you know, the curtains open, I'm standing and before they call my name, and I mean, my legs were like. I feel the adrenaline kick in on my legs and I'm like, you know, I'm hitting the legs. I'm like, wake up. You know, get off. Get the adrenaline off me, you know, so it's. It was, it was intense. It was intense.

And this was in Rio.

That was in Rio. So my hometown.

So this is huge. I mean, and, you know, Rio is not exactly known for its calmness in its fans. So this is like wherever they hosted the Olympics the year before.

Yeah.

So this is like. I mean, this, like the whole basically martial arts community is watching this. I mean, is there some. Was Hanzo there?

Yeah, yeah, he was there.

So people are just. I mean, there's a tension and it's also, I mean, I don't know if you felt that in part, but you're also fighting for the Gracie name.

Yeah, in the. In our hometown.

The greatest. Where the Gracie really racy competitor of all time, arguably. In the hometown.

Yeah.

I mean, okay, all my family, my.

Best friends, my friends, everybody watching, everybody there. There was a lot of pressure, a lot.

And then. Were you thinking that you would be able to submit him?

No, it's at that point, like, I don't predict how the fight will go that I never did because it is unpredictable. I never tried to set any strategy for any fight. I think, oh, okay, that I did, but that was the only time that I set any strategy into a fight. There was a 15 minutes fight then. And for. I said, first five minutes, I'm going to play defense. He's bigger, stronger, younger. I don't want to play his game. And I know he comes in very fast. Every single fight he had, you know, he comes very Aggressive. So my strategy, walk into that fight, I say five minutes. I'm going to play defense. I'm not going to try to attack. I'm not going to try to match his pace. I already expected, you know, maybe I'm going to start losing the fight because you know, if he comes in, there's a risk of me maybe getting take down. You know, something happened. I'm like, I'm going to stick to the game plan. Five minutes. I'm gonna start picking up the pace because then it's 10 minutes to go, which 10 minutes. A long fight. So I don't need to start fast, but I'm gonna start being more aggressive and then, you know, try to take him down or pull guard. You know, by then I'm like, that's as far as strategy goes to.

No specific. Stay in the feet. Were you comfortable being both bottom and top in this?

Yeah, strategically I'm always comfortable being bottom top. I prefer to be on top because being in the bottom, the person on top dictates the pace of the fight because he's on top over you. So I always prefer to be on top because I can dictate the pace. I can implement my own pace. And being the bottom, they can slow me down so it's harder. So if I can choose, I will always be on top. But I think by then I was like, it's, you know, five minutes. Hit it. I'm like, he's pretty big and strong. I'm gonna spend a lot of energy taking him down.

I forgot how did it, how did it feel? So here you're stepping in, by the way. Puzzle mass. This is old school. As old school as it gets. So calm and relaxed here for people just listening. We're watching the early minutes of the match.

Yeah.

So just feeling it out. He seems pretty calm too. He must be nervous too. I wonder how did you ever talk to him? You guys are friends? Yeah.

Yeah, we're friends.

Did he ever say how nervous he was?

No, we never spoke about that fight. No.

No. He probably lays late at night thinking about it.

Maybe I don't know.

That sob.

Yeah, I mean, so you see the first five minutes. No, he kept. I knew what he was going to do and I studied his game. His stand up is most basic. Is basic in takedowns, leg attacks, double legs. So he goes single, double. And he charges in. That is pretty much his stand up game.

So you would try. You get, you get a grip.

Yes. That we got penalized.

So do you like to use the. Do you like to post to your left. You have a right foot forward. Usually you're righty.

Right, I'm righty. But I know he wants my leg, so I'm playing my stance just because of his game, you know, all my grips at that. The first five minutes was to kind of try to neutralize his attacks.

So he wants to get your left leg.

Yeah.

Yeah, right there.

Yeah.

So how hard is that to stop that?

I mean, he felt pretty strong coming in some, you know, pushing the head down, trying to play with his balance.

Yeah.

Wow. If. If you. If you see it, there was a pause. Go back there. He charged in. There's a pause. Me standing in front of him. Yeah, I did that on purpose.

What do you mean?

Just to. Just in front of him. Because, you know, he tried.

Yeah.

And I'm like, you fail, I'm here.

There's a. Okay. So you could feel the frustration.

I could feel his frustration. His frustration not be able to take me down.

Okay. So now. And this is just psychological battle. So.

And you see me walking straight into the middle of the mat, and he's circling out.

Yeah.

See, I'm going very slow recovering, and he's computing like.

Yeah, okay.

Because he just made a, you know, effort trying to take me down. He needs to recover. And I mean, you need to recover. The other guys there waiting for you.

And do I go for another takedown because this one failed? Do I need to recalculate the strategy?

Yeah. And he kept trying over and over again and keep failing. I think that frustrate him a lot on that fight. I felt. I felt him kind of slowing down on the Lee because he was getting nowhere.

So we're five minutes in. Yeah. He keeps. So you never got that takedown in the. In the early.

No.

Let's see. So at this point, do you pull guard? Yeah. Okay.

So that's when I felt like he's. He's mentally. He's. He's not. He's worried now.

Did you try to pull close guard here?

No. I knew he was going to bring Danny in.

Okay. Because that's the defense against pulling closed guard.

Yeah, but I like that. What do you. I like people bringing the knee between my legs because, see, I'm going to close my guard even with his legging.

Okay.

He is.

He's. He's stopping the. Well, this. This is awkward, but I guess I.

Was holding his arm. That's why he felt he had no hand to post. Got it.

But still, it puts a leg in. But you're able to Close your guard around.

You're okay with that? I do that really well. I sweep people from that position a lot.

What's the sweep?

I guess it just pushed. Okay.

It's just like, to your left side.

Yeah.

Okay. Because he has no. Oh, it's almost like. You mean, you're basically around his back.

A little bit, like drag. He knew that, like, I swept a lot of people with that sweep. So you. You see, he kept leaning to his left to my right.

Yeah.

So I want to push them to my left. So you see him leaning over to my right a lot.

What's the right answer for him to, like, roll or something?

No, I mean, he's stuck. He does not really. He's stuck there. But the one thing he did, he kept off me completely. See that? He's leaning to, like, he's too afraid of my attack now because he. That, you know, he should lean on me.

Yeah.

You know, you should bring the fight to me. So when I fell him, you know, I knew he was like. He's too worried about my attacks now.

Oh, yeah, that's right. So he can't. Yeah, he comes back to the center. He has no, like.

So he's not engaging at that time. He's 100% just defending. So I felt that. I'm like, he's. He doesn't want to engage, and he's looking. I knew at that point he wants my foot because our first fight, I had the same position. I wasn't holding his arm, and he went to attack my foot, which he did. You know, he got it like a toehold or what.

Okay.

Yeah. So I knew he's looking at my foot.

Which foot? Sorry, the left.

My right. Yeah, my right foot.

Okay.

I'm holding his arm.

And now you're going to the back as an arm drag type of thing.

So the moment that I came off, now I'm He. I'm holding his arm so he cannot come up. So, you know, I'm holding his left arm so he cannot post a hand on the floor and come up.

And he's holding you, right, to try to get you. Yeah, basically to prevent you from attacking.

Yeah.

Oh, that's an interesting. And he rolls.

Yeah, he tried to. He tried to get me off balance. So, see, now I'm switching. I switch the grip on his arm so I can free my left arm.

Can I ask you a question? Like, was there a chance he sweeps you here?

I mean, there's always a chance, but very.

That.

Yeah, but see, my left arm is free.

Oh, so you can post.

Yeah.

Why was your left arm free? Oh, because you're using it to. Got it, got it. Okay.

No, I tried the hook. Now you will see you still got your own. Yeah, but when I knew he's. He's panicking because he didn't move that. He completely opened himself up. Like, I'm holding his left arm. So by holding the arm, he's. That prevents him from defending the hook on that side because his arm is being hauled across. So the arm cannot block the hook. And I mean the hook with your left leg. Yeah. So you'll see when he come up. But I would say. I mean, that's my guess. But busishes, he's. He's a big guy. You know, he was like 110 kilos. 112, something like that, which is 245.

Yeah.

All right. Yeah.

So what were you at the time?

Less 220? Yeah, 220.

A nice 100 kilo.

Okay. Yeah. So in hits, his defense are not amazing. He's good, but, you know, he's not known to have amazing defense. So by being the big guy in the room, when you train, you used to get out of situations because of your size. You shake people off. You know, it's. It's because of your size. You shake them off. You get off some bad positions. You can. I mean, I could feel on the first fight, I'm side control, you know, suddenly he explode out. So, you know, you. I've seen him doing that a few of his fights. No, not in the most technical way. Just I'm getting out. And he did because of his size, so. And he did the same thing. Like he tried to stood up. When I'm on his back. He completely opened up the hooks. You will see the next move, his head gonna come up and he's gonna try to get off the floor.

So basically come up, shake you off kind of strategy.

There was no defense for the hooks. I put both hooks in straight away.

Oh, his arm is.

Yeah, I'm off balance. Yeah. See, I didn't bring him up. He came up.

Yeah.

And now I'm attacking his neck and. And he's worried about the hooks. That's fatal mistake. That's like defense always come first. Remember what I just said? Now, defense first came second. So he's not worried more about the points than his neck. So it was like a progression of mistakes. That's why I think he got frustrated when he couldn't take me down. And then when I pull. God, he was. He Was frustrated that the fight wasn't going his way. You know, he's very good about taking down. He tried over and over again for.

Five minutes, and here he was frustrated about the hooks. So he's like. It's almost like the frustration things like, no, no, these hooks shouldn't be here.

Like, I pull guard on the grips that I want. He's not comfortable inside my guard. He's not in a position that he wants to be. He's over leaning to his left. You know, he's not engaging or trying to pass. He's trying to get the foot, but his arm is trapped. He's going to get nowhere. And then when I swept him, suddenly his words start collapsing. You know, he couldn't take me down. I pulled guard, arm swept him. He tried to roll me over. No, he didn't get me anywhere. The first movement that he tried to escape, I'm on his back. I mean, now he's lost.

Yeah, that if you just go back to him standing up.

See both hook goes in, no defense. Like, there was nothing on the way of those hooks because he tried to come up.

Coming up. You're. You're high enough on him to where the weight was just probably immense. It just felt too heavy.

I mean, you got. You already got. You're already.

You're already going for the choke.

Of course, there's no time to lose. Look at that. Yeah.

So you're not, like, worried I'm going to get shaken off.

You're going for the choke. Okay.

You got your right hand.

No shaking me off. I'm on your back now.

We're in this together. And your right hand is opening up the lapel.

My right hand is holding his arm. I still holding the sleeve.

Oh, sorry. You're holding the sleeve, but I'm holding the sleeve.

And I'm already going for the neck. Because it's timing.

At which point do you let go of the sleeve and open up, help with the lapel, or do you not need it?

No, I did that. But first I want to try to make a grip. Like, then I need to establish control before I let go. His arm.

Got it.

So I kept holding that a bit longer. And then when I fell. Okay, I have a good control over the back. Then I let go.

Do you. Okay, so you have like a light grip on his lapel, but you're thinking you need that.

I need to adjust that.

You need to adjust. You're like holding it there and you're thinking, okay, at some point I need to adjust.

All I Need. All I want is to get under his chin. Then. I know it's, it's. I mean, it's. Now I can't go for it because if he's over, there's no choke.

Right.

I need. The wrist needs to be under.

Can you choke Butcher over the.

No, I can't. That's just not right.

Okay. Anyway, it's not right or it doesn't work?

It. Both. It's not right and doesn't work. I mean, would you tap to choke on your chin? No, just pressure. You hurt, but it's not going to choke you out.

I don't know. I don't know. I'm not. Let me argue this. I love this arguing with Roger Gracie about jokes. This is great. Okay. Like, clock choke is. It was always interesting to me because in judo, it's illegal to have the gear on face. And so it was kind of liberating for me to be allowed to have a gear on the face. No, it's just liberating. No, that you don't have to worry about it. Of course it's more effective to go under the chin, but I'm surprised just because the amount of pressure, like it's.

All about how much you can take it. You can take a lot, but it feels like it doesn't feel comfortable. I mean, sometimes on your mouth. It cuts your mouth. Now you're bleeding. It feels horrible.

No, but it feels. That's not the feeling. The feeling. It might not be a joke, but the feeling like, like it's a pressure that everything's just closing in, but it.

Doesn'T take you anywhere. Like you're not going to go to sleep.

You might not go to sleep.

So it's just pressure. Yes, so pressure hurts, is uncomfortable, but it's not going to break your face and it's not going to put you to sleep. So if I don't get the neck, I don't go for the killer. Okay. I'm like, I'm. I'm holding the, the. The. His collar. You know, my, my wrist is almost on the. It's, you know, I'm. I'm trying to kind of dig in. If, If I can't dig in, then I will adjust the collar. But first I need to dig in.

Dig in first, then adjust. Can you do all that with one hand or.

No, I did.

So you can tighten the choke with just one hand?

No, I need the second one. To open the lapel.

To open the lapel, but you're like, digging in with one hand.

I'm Digging in under the chin. Under his. Under. Now I need to go deeper.

But that, the going deeper requires a second hand.

It does. Okay, it does.

And. But that requires you letting go of the other hand.

Yeah, I have to let go eventually. Yeah. See?

All right. Yeah. Well, that's over.

Yeah. Because I'm already under his. Like the first hand got under the chin.

Do you need the hand on the second lapel?

Of course. Otherwise he turns and he's out.

That's the control. The turning versus the tightening of the choke.

Yeah, it does both. It helps tighten the collar and stop the person rolling out.

Were you feeling pretty good about this position?

Yes, I just felt it's getting tighter, tighter, tighter, tighter. Because it wasn't super tight from the beginning. It wasn't like the perfect choke. So it was still. I mean, I knew it was like, it's very close to the end, but, you know, I still need to just. There was still the risk of maybe he escaping.

Is it possible for his head to slip out?

It possible, yes. But I'm closing that gap.

Yeah, I hear. What did that feel like? Relief.

Relief. Like awesome. Amazing.

Somebody on Reddit asked, ask him about the cross grip he used to sweep. Followed with a genius grip switch when buches was inverted. Did you use a cross grip when you sweeped?

I guess the cross grip in the arm, that must be.

Oh, that's the cross grip. Okay. What's the genius behind that? Or was that just. Do you like that kind of. That kind of grip?

Yeah, because I always like closed guard and no one wants to be in anyone's close guard. Right. It's open guard is the step to pass. So everybody, when you try to close the guard, they bring the knee in the middle. Like if you, if, if you're not standing, if you're lower on the ground and the open guard, if you're close to me, you need that knee between. So it's a must. That's when I start developing the attack. You know, I managed to have long legs to close my legs around people even with that. And then I just developed that sweep.

When did you start developing that?

Like, I don't remember when, but I would say before black belt.

Okay, so your answer to that is not to figure out how to prevent them from putting the knee in? Is there an answer to that?

No.

The good guys will always. No, you can't get the knee, remove.

The leg out of the way. That's not possible.

Well, maybe off balance them enough to where there's not.

No. Okay. I mean, you can try, but, like, it's hard. If you kind of balance the. You sweep them, right?

So that means gonna. So you have to.

That's a full sweep. Yeah, because that's Is the. Is extremely common to have that. I mean, I. If. If I'm on your guard, open guard, you know, if you have your legs, if from between both of your legs in the open guard, mine will be between your legs because it's a must. My knee cannot be on the floor.

Since Hanzo was there, what did he tell you before?

I think just motivate you. I think that's. Hanzo always did that fantastically well to motivate me like before in fight, a match. I think that, you know, the confidence, you know, his, you know, his energy being around you, it's. I think that's the. Is the great thing to have Hans on your corner is the motivation that he gives you.

What did you learn about Jiu Jitsu in life from Renzo Gracie? We got to hang out with him in Vegas a little bit. He's a character. He's one of the historic coaches and Jiu jitsu competitors, but also personalities in the martial arts world. In. In the world in general, there's very few like him.

Henzo is a fantastic person. It's. It's, you know, what I've learned most from him is like, it's, you know, you can take any challenge. It's, you know, doesn't matter when, where, you know who. It's, you know, you have to be ready and, you know, with the worst spirit that he has, he, you know, he always took any challenge, ready or not ready.

Was it you that said it or he said it? Where. Not until you go in, you know, to do something difficult do you discover the strength that you have. So, like. Like, if you really think about it, you might think that you don't. You're not good enough. You don't have the strength to take on something difficult.

I fully agree that I think we are measured not when we're on the strongest, but when we are on the weakest. That's when we truly measure ourselves or character who we are not. We're in a position of power or we're in a position of weakness.

Have you surprised yourself, like, how damn good you are? Like, is this. Is this really how good I am in this situation, where in retrospect, you might think, how the hell was I able to accomplish this?

Not how good I am, because otherwise I wouldn't be there. So, you know, being there in the first place, it's already not a great thing. But I say, you know, every single time I found myself there, I was super proud that I've never cracked. Like I've never gave up ever, any second, any fight.

Never, never been broken in competition, never even.

It's not about winning or losing, it's about you giving up. I've never doubted myself. I always fought to the very end, always that I'm most proud of because there was moments, you know, it's, you're in a terrible position. You, you know, mainly like there was moments that I was super tired, but like exhaustive tired when it was easy to give up. Like I had nothing more to give. But I pushed. I took energy out of my soul, I would have to say, because when my body had zero, you know, my spirit, my soul, pull it out.

Is that in part just not allowing yourself to have to ever, ever quit?

Yeah.

I have one other thing I regret. I remember like a blue belt match. I remember, I'm not gonna say who it was against, but I remember just being extremely exhausted and just constantly fighting. A guy was really good mount, really good guard passing and I just remember him passing my guard. Eventually it was just like a finals of one of the IBGJF tournaments and then right away going to mount and just, I don't know, I. The level of frustration, I mean, I quit at that point. I remember that still. Like I. It's not about losing, winning or losing, but I just remember I was like, I was like teary eyed frustrated and then I knew there was a lot of fights to left in there somewhere and I quit. And I regret that to this day. I think the reason I regret that is because it gave me an option to now quit. In every other aspect of life, this is an option.

Yeah, it is.

It sucks.

Yeah, it teaches you. It makes us stronger. I think it made you stronger.

Yeah, it makes you stronger that you did that to learn that. Don't do that again. But still, like you said, just going to sleep in training, I do think it made me weaker. It did make me weaker in the rest of my life too. Those, you know, I've quit a few times in my life on small things. And you realize, okay, it's not that big of a deal. It's fine, like, who cares? But that what you learn over time is that voice always comes there. Like, obviously, maybe it does for you too at the, Even at the highest level of like it's not that big of a deal. Like it's okay to quit here. Like it makes Sense Everybody would understand, you know, in some sense, like you're. You know, many people would say you're past your prime in this match with the Pujesha. Like, it makes sense. You've been focusing on mma. Makes sense. Makes sense to lose. Yeah. I don't know. That's a weird voice. And in some sense, it's that voice and a voice that says, like, why are you doing this? Like, this is silly. Doesn't make any sense. Just stop. Just stop.

Just stop.

And shutting that voice down and never allowing yourself to quit, that's a really powerful thing. Like, everybody I've met, everybody that's successful. Yeah. Down to the. Even engineers, CEOs Elon Musk, just never quitting. Like, when everybody around you, it says quit, Never quitting. It's weird. I don't know what that is. Might be genetic. It might be like using the stubbornness to just never allow yourself to develop that. It's basically developing a calluses to that voice that tries to tell you to quit. You never quit.

Huh?

What would you attribute that to?

It's like, how much you want to get to the destination you chose. Like, you know, it's how badly you want to get there. It's. If you quit, you're never gonna get there.

And you always wanted to.

I always wanted.

Is there some thing you remember from that match, some things that happened before and after that stand out to you? Just since in Rio?

Yeah, there was an interview, you know, like, prior to the fight. You know, there was a big fight. We were doing, like, media. Every day before we, you know, me and him, we were meeting for media. And it's like five days before, you know, five, six days before, I'm quite chatty. It's, you know, the closer we get to the fight, the more focus I get, the less I talk, stop, joke around, playing, you know, with people. But I remember, I think it was maybe three or four days before we were doing an interview together. I think my cousin Kira was there. She was doing one of the interviews with us. And I don't remember exactly what we were talking about, but I just remember we're talking about the fight, of course. And then it was, you know, we were standing beside each other, and I'm like. And then I, you know, suddenly I jump in, I grab him by the neck. I say, I'm gonna tap you by the neck. And then he was like, you know, very shy. And then I let go. I said, no, I'm gonna tap you by the arm. And I could feel he was like he wasn't comfortable, you know, with being there. Was, you know, me saying that I'm going to tap him out. There was like, I was so relaxed joking about it, but I'm joking that I'm going to tap him out in a fight that we're going to have in four days time. And yeah, I felt he was like not comfortable at all.

Do you think you got in his head a little bit? It gave you a little bit of confidence?

Yeah.

You said that Jiu Jitsu is a reflection of your personality. So both your Jiu Jitsu and your personality, there's a calmness. What is that? Why are you so calm? Is there like an ocean underneath that's boiling? Is this developed or is this your personality? Are you basically leveraging who you are already to develop a game around the Jiu Jitsu or did Jiu Jitsu make you calm?

I think both. I was always very calm since I was a kid, since very young. I was never very fiery person. So that is a reflection you reflected on my Jiu Jitsu, of my life, on my fights, the way I fight. So it's a direct influence of my personality. And I think it's also in the day, you know, you develop, the more, the more you practice, the more you fight. It's like, you know, you don't want to get nervous, you don't want the adrenaline, and so you just learn how to shut that off from your mind. So the less I thought about it, you know, it's like how many times I fought, you know, let's say the week before the fight, that's when you start more when you concern the most because now it's getting very close before, it's just far away. You know, it's, it's normal to think of the tournament. You get a bit nervous, but it goes away quick. But the fight, you know, the week before now, you constantly thinking of that day, and every time you think adrenaline pumps in your heart accelerate, you know, it doesn't, you know, it makes it. It's like, why am I feeling this? What different will it make? So you kind of, you're shutting that thought out of your mind because you don't want to feel the adrenaline, your heart accelerating. It's not going to add you anything. So it's, you know, it's the practice also that I think it helped me to shut that off my mind.

Has that helped you in regular life?

Yeah, of course. It's, you know, suddenly when you go into any, any situation that might be stressful, you Know, like an important meeting. No. Super. Whatever it is. It's like, how much would you worry about that before? Worried is not going to help you anyway. It's the opposite. Just going to make you more nervous, your heart accelerate. Your ability to think clearly is going to be damaged by that. So it's like the more calm, the more relaxed you are, the better you can think of.

Do you ever get angry? Yeah, like in traffic, do you ever get, like, not calm, just like you're screaming?

Not. Not in a screaming, no, but just angry.

What does angry look like? Is it still calm?

Yeah, like, you know, a few seconds of complaining, but then it goes away.

Have you ever, like, thrown a cell phone at a wall or something like that?

Just that. No, I never get that angry because that's just silly. It's like, it's. It's. It's. If. If I would have done that, I would not be able to control my emotions prior to a fight. There will be a reflection.

Letting yourself lose, losing control, that will reflect other times. Do you think it has, in part made you more emotionally closed off from the world? Like, it's harder for you to be vulnerable to others? Probably.

Yeah. But I heard that a few times. I'm emotionally close. It's. Yeah, maybe that. I think that influenced it. Yeah.

Have you ever cried in a movie?

Yeah, for. Not for many years before. I think maybe I'm getting older.

Do you remember the movie?

Something. I mean, it's.

No, I mean, is it the Notebook?

I mean, I would say the last few years, I've been crying more than before for some reason. I don't know why. Like, silly movies, like, nothing suddenly brings tears to my eyes.

Yeah. Well, already just having met you and interacted with you, I can see that you're kind of opening your heart and mind to the world. You could see, like, here's this historically great athlete now. Like, the wars have been fought and you're now, like, waking up to the world. It's cool to see.

Probably I'm bringing my guard down now. I don't have to kick it up all the time.

You can even do some podcasts. You said you watched, like, movies beforehand, sometimes mentioned Braveheart. What were you doing? Did you watch something beforehand? Like, the day before?

I used to. Yeah. There was, like, I think Braveheart and Gladiator. I mean, there's a few others that I've always watched the day before. Because the day before I used to do nothing. I just want to be at home in bed watching tv, like, saving, you know, Energy stretching by myself. So it's like, it's just want to save energy. I don't waste my energy going out, going around. So, you know, those are the movies that I always like to watch. Kind of trying to bring some, you know, hyper excitement. Like, you know, I'm getting ready to war tomorrow, so I'm like, let me watch some movies that, like, brought that, you know, some that were a spirit into me.

Yeah. What is that about human nature? Braveheart I love.

Yeah.

Even more. Should you put your life on the line for a thing that matters or run away just so you can live? It's like running. You may live, but, like, years from now, when you look back at this moment, would you trade all the days just to come back to this moment.

And tell the English, you could take.

Our lives, but you can't take our freedom? I mean, oh, man, what is that about human nature? Is there some aspect of, like, the glory you were able to achieve being more important than anything else? There's some aspect of that that's greatness, you know?

Yeah. I never pursue glory, so it just came, you know, it came with it. But that was never my goal. I never care for glory.

Were you able to experience, like, I'm at the height of this thing, whatever humanity is able to achieve in various things. Holy shit, I'm flying.

I felt like no one can touch me. I can destroy people.

Prolonged periods of time or just momentarily.

I always knew from before I got to a black belt I can be great because I used to train with the best in the world for many years. I used to see my progression and everybody else. So I knew I was getting somewhere. I knew I could be the best. And that was always my goal since very, very young. And I always believed that I could be. And that over the years, that kept telling me over and over again, because I'm getting better and better, faster than everybody else. So it's. I just need to carry on with what I'm doing.

But I think you've said that you wanted to, and maybe you thought you could be the greatest of all time, like at the very beginning, like when you sucked.

Yeah, yeah.

Not.

Not the greatest of all time because. And I never really thought about that, but I thought, I'm gonna be the best in the world when I sucked. When I sucked.

Okay, so what is that? What is that? Like, that self belief, Is there a component to that self belief being a prerequisite?

It's difficult to say because that was a decision, I think, like, why did I believe I could be. I can't tell you that because I don't know.

But you think you decided to.

I decided to be. I decided to be, and I believed I could.

I think there was like a day somewhere when you were young where you're like, huh? You're sitting on a couch eating Cheetos.

I don't think it was a day. Like a moment. Because for many years is. I wasn't really training much as a child. You know, I've done a bit of. I used to train and then stop. Done a bit of judo. Never stay away from it much. But until, you know, like, from 10 to 14, I barely trained jiu jitsu much. I used to. There was no Gracie school near where I used to live. And I was doing. There was a jiu Jitsu judo school. I used to go twice a week. I went to a Jesus tournament. I lost in five seconds. Left crying. The guy pulled me in five seconds. Anyway, so when I was 14, I went to the south of Brazil to see my Uncle Helium to spend summer holidays. I was there for, like, four weeks, I think. And when I got there, my cousin Hollis was living with him. Holly's, like, bigger than me. It was. I think it's four years, four years older. So I was 14, was already 18, 17, 18, purple belt competitor. And I think that was the first time in my life that I felt what it mean, what it meant to be a Gracie in terms of having a school, teaching, training, you know, living that, you know, jujitsu lifestyle, what a Gracie mean to be. And I've just. I've loved that. I was out of shape. My uncle was like, you know, incentivizing me to lose weight, to train. But you're not training. Why? You know, it's like, you've gotta shape. You need to diet. So I used to run every day. I was eating super well. I start, you know, I start that when I start changing. So when I go back to Rio, I was super motivated to follow up, carry on. And he, you know, he invited me to go back there to live with him, but I couldn't. It was too soon to change schools and everything. My mom said, no, but maybe next year, if you want to go, you can. So I kept that in my mind. Next year I moved to the south to live with him. I was 15, and it was him. My Uncle Helion and my Uncle Crawlin, they both used to live very close to each other. They used to have their own schools close to each other. So I was with both. And I stayed There for almost a year. I was the youngest in the academy. There was four some, you know, blue purple bells, normal guy. But they're already competing, training ahead of me. And I just joined the group of training. I didn't compete while I was there because there was no competition that then and I wasn't really ready. But it's not about competing, it's more about the training. And I start training every day, start improving. And year after that, when I came back to Rio, I was already on a mission. I was like, I love this. I'm just carrying on training every day with my uncle Carlos. Carlos Gracie Jr, Gracie Bara. And when I got there, I was training a little bit there before, but I just 14, 15. But when I got there there was a, you know, there was one of, that was one of the most competitive, one of the biggest jujitsu schools at the time. There were so many high level world champions, competitors in every single belt. And so, and I've kind of joined in with that and I've carried on. I don't remember when, but I remember, you know, looking and saying I'm gonna be the best in the world. But I used to be. I was at the bottom of the stairs, you know, no one really believed me. I didn't shout, you know, to, to disguise. But you know, I told a few people, I'm like I'm gonna be the best. And that's. I think I was just losing. But I've never ever doubt, I've never divert from that mission.

I would say, did anyone believe you when you said you could be great?

Nobody.

Didn't matter.

Didn't matter. I don't care.

I don't need even people that like love you.

Everybody, my mom, my dad, I mean no one thought, no one in my family thought I was gonna be here today. Nobody. Because I just started late. I've never had any start that people, oh, that kid's gonna be really good. Oh, I was a chubby kid that didn't barely train. I mean people used to look at me, he's just another greasy this. You know what more what do you learn from that?

Do you think most people lose that self belief? They quit when everyone around them doesn't believe.

Yeah, I think if, if those that need approval.

Yes, I see you shouldn't have approval.

I never need approval from anyone. I don't care if you believe me or not. If you not my problem.

It's tough, it's tough. I don't need approval. But you're surrounded by people older Wiser, better than you. And they're kind of directly or indirectly saying, you stop being silly, kid.

No one ever told me that. Because that was not something that I used to say all the time. I maybe say it very, very few times.

I just, you know, maybe that's the secret is don't.

Of course. I mean, if you start shouting, then you've just been silly, then it's not what you really want. Then you're saying that for another reasons. If you say it over and over again. Because you shouldn't. I mean, that's why.

Well, to push back. One of the reasons you might want to say it is to find the right people that believe in you.

Yeah, but not if you say over and over again. Then it's just. Then you're just bragging. Sure. Because one thing is to say it, but the other one is to do it. Yeah. So it's, you know, you say that once or very few times, but now you have to do it. Saying it's not helping you getting there.

Was there sacrifices you had to make?

Everything. Everything that was my priority in life. Everything was secondary, like social life.

Career paths.

Yeah, everything.

And as from 14, 15, 16, as you get better and better and better and better, it was just becoming sharper, the focus on this thing.

Yeah, it's just over and over again, over and over again. It's, you know, it's just training, training, training. And I mean, how many times I lost, I. I have no clue.

So on the mat, you were getting beat up.

I'm getting smashed by everybody. People my age, I was chubby, I was physically weak. I mean, I'm tall, but physically, I'm not physically strong. I'm normally strong for my size, but physically, if you want to measure strength, I'm weak because, you know, we can measure strength. Living with, lifting weights, I'm weak, I don't lift. I lift weight, same as people, much lighter than me. Everybody, my. My weight. Lives have heavier weight.

And then people that train with you often talk about how strong, super strong.

Yeah, because I generate a lot of strength. I can create. I put myself in the right angles so that I can be strong. I'm not strong. And the only person who I listen to saying that is comprito. One guy that I fought, Rodrigo Medeiros, I fought him a few times and he's the only one that I heard saying about me that's like, no, Roger's not strong. He's not. He's technical and he can create strength, but he's not strong.

He Meant that as a compliment?

Yeah, I think so. No, I think he was honest because he, I think he's the only one who could see that.

Yes.

So I think that's a compliment.

So he's technically really strong. So you had incredible match with him.

Yeah.

Is there insight you have about how you went from a person who was not very good but had a dream, a confident dream, a vision to somebody that was actually good? Was there something to the practice sessions? Were you getting reps on a specific techniques?

I'd never done anything special because, I mean, I'm in a gym training equally with everybody else. So I've never did anything on the side different than anybody else. So I was in the school training the exact same way as everybody else.

Well, in terms of schedule, yes. But what was. Can you reverse engineer what was going through your mind? Because there's so many different ways to actually mentally approach the same exact training session.

I'm going to try to beat you.

Okay. So in some part it's competitive. Like at the core of it is I want to be better than these particular people.

You're going to keep beating me, I'm going to keep coming back at you.

And to do that, I have to solve problems, I have to figure out how to do stuff.

Well, you catch me once, I'm gonna keep on coming, trying to not get caught in that.

At which point did you develop a game that was basically the famous white belt game of the very basics, the very fundamentals of jiu jitsu, like saying, I'm going to beat you.

There was never a conscious decision to, to try to, you know, to have a basic jujitsu first. I think there's a big misconception there. Okay. My jujitsu is not basic. It's not. You're right, it's not basic. It's not old school. I think people, they just don't see that it's extremely complex in a way that is. Is people, they cannot copy. I teach people, you know, I can teach you the cross color joke. But the one thing that people they don't realize is not the move is you need to practice the move until you learn is the practice over and over again. Like, it took me years. When I say years, I'm like years after I was a black belt, I was able to choke people out with a cross collar, choke in them out effectively years after I got my black belt. So that's something that you learn first day, first week. So I can teach you. It makes no difference. You, you know the theory but until you apply the enam, you will help you. Of course, the more details you learn, you know the, the, the more tools you have to practice. But it's still very complex because it's not about the move itself. It's about how can you control the movement of the other person. He's resisting, you're blocking, you cannot predict what he would do. And he's doing a whole bunch of moves to, to block you. And every single move you do a step of the way because it's a, is a progression of move from beginning to end till I apply the choke. It's a progression of move. And there's not one way to get that. There's many ways because how many ways can you block? You can put your arm in every single angle. We have both arms you can bridge. So it's dealing with all that. That is the, that is the complex complexity of the position. But that goes for everything. Like every single move. My strong moves, I would say it took me years developing them. Years. So it's. Then you're going to tell me that's basic. So go try and do it. What the other person is defending, that's the thing. Because most of the things that I do, I've been doing them for years and they know that I'm going to do and I can still get it. Most of the times that's the hardest is when they know what's coming. Nikki, you can still do it.

And you said that the way you're able to do that, you just have to do it, right?

Yeah.

What do you learn by doing all the steps along the way? And just for people who don't know cross collar choke from the mount. So Jiu jitsu starts in a neutral place. There's people on their feet and then you either. Then you get to the ground somehow and then there's the person on top and on bott and then there's a guard with the legs between the two people. And then you can get past the guard. As you get past the guard and you into side control and so on, you get more and more and more dominant positions. And so mount is considered to be one of the most dominant positions. It's when you're past their legs, sitting on top of their stomach, putting pressure on them. And cross collar choke is using their jacket to. How would you explain that? To choke.

To have the collars. I put my both hands on your collars and when I squeeze you press your neck. So it blocks the venue. You go to sleep so you choke people with your hands in the wrist, you put them, you know, you grab the collar so you get the wrist around people's neck and you squeeze.

Yeah. The discovery of that is fascinating. I mean, because it's interesting. It's like, you know, you can imagine there's all kinds of ways to choke a human being. What animals do it with their, like, mouth, right. They put, like, their jaws around the. And the fact that you can kind of discover this methodology of the right kind of positioning and then it becomes an art form, like, of why this? Why not this? Right? Or why not this? Or something like to figure out.

I think we practice. That will come easy.

Over time, you figure out what works and what not you. And then. And then more further and further details and subtleties start to emerge anyway on that process of beating, of being able to beat some of the best people in the world. And the thing they know is coming. What is. What's the difference in the white belt doing that and Hajj Gracie doing that? The thing that's so hard to explain, what do you think you're picking up? Is it some tiny, tiny details and muscle movements?

It is. It's many tiny details because it's the whole movement itself is the perception from beginning to end. Like, every step of that movement, it's important and precise. So it's, you know, you miss one, one detail on the way it collapse. So when I said with the black belt, the black belt has no control over the whole movement. He's thinking beginning and end. So he goes straight, you know, straight to your neck. Regardless, he cannot read the other person. If it's, you know, if it's time to let go, if it's the time to go for a neck, Should I be pushing here before I get my hand in? You know, is this the right time to go deep or should I deal with this first before the second hand?

That's at the beginning. So it's at the white belt.

Yeah.

At the very beginning of the journey, the white belt.

Did you think finish?

Yeah. And then as you get progress, you see that there's like this giant tree of possibilities that you're almost feeling your way down. I mean, would you be able to teach. Do you even know what you're doing by the details? Okay, but it's hard to convert into words, probably.

No, it's possible. Then you don't know what you're doing.

Okay, so what is. What. What are some most important details that you could say? Maybe positioning of the hand, the gripping. Is it the positioning of your Body, the posture. Is there some interesting like insights?

It's a. It's a combination. It's a combination because first you have to put your body in a very strong position that you don't require your hands to hold them out. So the choke is. That's first. Because I cannot. You. I cannot use my hands on the floor to stop you escaping.

Yeah.

So if I have to, my body has to handle that. The way I position myself, I have to do it in a way that don't require my hands for balance.

Okay. Why is the mouth such a dominant position? Doesn't make any sense.

Right.

Like you're just sitting on top of the stomach of a person.

It makes all sense. If you think what's. Forget fighting, forget jiu jitsu, like you've never trained. What's the one position, the most dominant position you can get over another human being? One the most for you. Which one? It is like the most dominant position that you can get over another human being.

So if we were just. Because the way I think about it is putting myself in like a 6, 7, 8 year old self without knowing any martial arts. And I had an older brother who would beat the shit out of me. Yeah, it probably was mount.

It was.

But. Well, yes. Okay, so we both didn't know. But if we knew something, it'd probably be back control.

If in the back control you're under the other person, the thing being under is the most dominant position. It can be over another person.

You mean like a back control?

If I'm on your back.

Oh, like that.

You can move, you can roll. I cannot stop you rolling. Yeah, maybe you can even stand up. How dominant is that?

Yeah, but if we're the same size, both untrained, if.

It doesn't matter.

Have you seen kids? Do they do that? Okay. Mount looks and feels like dominance when you're 28 year olds fighting. Okay. I don't know. I don't know why it feels that way. It could be some animalistic thing. Maybe it is actual dominance. I don't know. But it feels like if you're untrained, you can just buck your way out of it. It feels unstable. It feels unstable to hold mount unless you know what you're doing right.

No, you should multiply both of your hands on the floor.

Yeah, just.

Just your hands. Do you think it's easy to take somebody off?

Yeah, maybe not.

Do you think it's easy to remove the hand and bring them out? The hands on the floor, arms straight. I'm leaning and.

Yeah, you're right.

It's hard. I mean you don't need to know fighting to hold yourself down.

Yeah. But you're right. When you take the arms off and balancing then it gets tricky because when you're trying to. I think what happens. I'm thinking back to 8 year old because my, my brother's five years older than me and he would do the usual like stop hitting yourself thing and I think he would be in mount like hitting me with my own hands from at a place of love. Of course I love him deeply and it was very formative and positive experience for me. Okay. I think yeah. The weakness is when he takes. When the person who has the amount takes their arms off to, to do something.

But even if you keep your hands up in the air. When I'm falling. Yeah, you can when I'm falling.

So I'm speaking about untrained people. I feel like they get greedy, they try to do stuff.

The other day I watched my nine year old daughter.

Yeah.

Well, we're in a friend's house, there's a whole bunch of kids there, they playing and when I looked, she's mounting the boy, her age, her size, he cannot escape.

Wow. She probably seen.

No, she trained. She's been training for I'll say a year and a half, which is not much. I mean she's a nine year old daughter, a girl over a boy.

Has she seen footage of you maybe she picked up?

No, but she appreciate. She been training for a year and a half so she has an idea what mount is. But I mean in terms of our skills, I don't never taught her the mouth. She had lessons at the academy like any other kid.

Did she make him cry?

No, but he couldn't escape. Which other position would she be able to hold the boy in the back. He would roll her out.

That's true.

He couldn't come out from underneath. They're kids. There is no other most dominant position that you can pin the other person.

Couldn't you argue from that perspective? Side control?

No, no, because side control, you have to. To hold the other person and it's. You're not free, you, you, you cannot release them.

But inside control, your hips are not on top of theirs. So they can't buck you off. Right. Can you? If you're holding them a little bit and they can hit with one hand.

But his head is here, you're gonna hurt him here by the time you're doing that. But then he has his arms free and if you turn towards your legs, then he's away from your arms. You don't even have the perfect angle. I mean, it is a good position. You can hit, you can dominate. But it's not the best position to be over the other person. He can knee you in the head at the same time you punch him. Then there's a knee coming to your head.

I love playing devil's advocate with Hodge Gracie.

About 28 year olds fighting and your head is closer to his hand. Yeah. Maybe he can throw you a punch.

All right.

So would you choose to be inside control of a mount? Getting in the head?

Well, for a person who in competition prefers neon belly over mount. But that's my weakness. That's my failure as a human being. Holding mount can be tricky.

It's very hard. Of course it's hard. But what is easy?

Controlling neon belly is easier.

But neon belly is easy.

Easier. I'm not saying black belt level. I'm saying, well, maybe even black belt level.

Easier for what?

To hold somebody to make them squirm and hurt to create openings.

But go do that with a big guy.

Yeah, you can't.

You can't.

Yeah.

He's going to push you back and come up in the mount. He can't sit up. Not when he mounted him.

The thing is also about mount is people on the bottom of mount panic more. So they fight harder.

Panic, they expose. It's the most exposure you have because the person's arms are free. You cannot touch him. His head is too high. There's nothing he can do. His legs won't get you anywhere. He might touch your lower back. It's like nothing you do. You most expose being in the mouth. I'd rather you hold me. Side control. A thousand times the amount of me and having to look up for your fist come down.

Yeah.

Side control. I hug you. You cannot hurt me. Okay. You hold me. But I'm hugging you. If I hug you tight, what can you do against me? Hold on.

It seems maybe it's just from. And again, I'm arguing just for the fun of it. But it seems like a more difficult skill to learn. To apply a huge amount of pressure and weight from mount, you don't have.

To apply pressure and weight from mouth.

Or not apply pressure, but be heavy. Right.

You don't necessarily need to be heavy.

You don't? No. Why do you, as people say, you feel extremely heavy.

If I'm putting. If I'm being heavy, I cannot attack. I have to choose. I can be heavy just to penalize, you know, just to pin them. Take the energy out, you know, to make them suffer. But the moment that I decide to attack, I can only be heavy if I'm sitting up straight. That's when my all my weight can drops down. If I'm high, then I'm sitting on your chest and on your own solar plexus. That's the worst position to be. Sit at it on the person because that's where he breathed. So you in a high mouth, sitting up straight. That's when you can. I can be very heavy. I can make people, you know, feel my weight and, you know, be very uncomfortable. But I'm not in a position to attack. The moment that I want to attack, my body has to lean forward. I have to approach the, you know, the neck of the arms. The moment that I do that, my weight comes off my hips. It goes to my knees. The weight is off you.

But at that point, if you have.

Now I'm attacking, I'm no longer heavy.

On you, but you want to be at that point to remove any of the defenses they have or some of the defenses by getting their elbows now.

Now I'm like either getting in, trying to get your call, or bringing your elbow across to attack the arm lock.

So what are some interesting details along the way that are tough to get to figure out? What were the big leaps for you from white belt to the best in the world?

You're trying to attack the neck, you know, putting one hand in the collar. You're priving yourself that hand to place it on the floor. So now you're vulnerable to get bridged, to get rolled over. Because if your hands are free, trying to roll you over, you stopped the moment that you put your hand in the person's collar. Now you have to be very careful with your body positioning. Very careful.

The distribution of the weight.

Yeah. And how, you know, how high you sit, you know, how tall your upper body goes. And then the biggest challenge comes as you're trying the second hand. That's the, you know, for the, for the choke. That's the biggest challenge, the second hand. Because you already have, you know, you already don't have one hand. Now you are trying the second hand. And if one of my hand is in, you as a defending yourself, have two hands. One hand is already on one side. This, this side is getting attack. You have two hands blocking that. I have one hand. There's no help for that hand. I cannot remove anything. That's the biggest challenge, getting one hand, getting past two and not getting rollover.

But I also have to have Two hands on bottom. I have two hands, and it can also turn, and I can do all kinds of stuff.

Yeah.

And my whole mind and everything is focused on that second hand.

It's a big challenge. It's hard. Very hard.

Is there an art to getting the first hand into a place where you.

It's less of an art because it's easier. I'll say. Most times I get my first hand in is when you're trying some move, you're trying to escape, you're pushing. I get the first hand in as an opportunity, and it's going to sit there for a while.

And now.

And I go as deep as I can. So the first hand, because the second hand is the hardest, I have to compensate the first hand to be as deep as I can. If I cannot get the first hand in deep, I won't try the second. I need that first hand deep. Then I go for this, and it's.

Deep, and everything is, like, super, like, tight.

Super tight. The first hand has to be super tight, otherwise the chance of failing is very big. Okay.

Does the opponent usually feel like they're screwed at that point also?

Not as you put in the first hand? In the moment that I position myself just prior to attempt the second hand, I think the way I. My body is positioned, the way I'm. I'm collapsing with my weight, and they feel. It's like. It's. I'm. You know, this is terrible. Yeah.

How long did it take you to figure out how to reposition your weight once the first hand is in?

Very quickly, because. Do I get breached out?

Okay. So that there's a good feedback loop.

Because one mistake, you out. Like, one off positioning you out.

But you still have to do that against the best people in the world. Yeah. Where's the way out for most people? Like, if you were in mount against pushesha or some of the best defenses in the world.

The way out is to obviously, is to defend themselves and, you know, prevent the first hand to get deep. And I'll say the best thing that they could do is try to change my positioning on the mount in a way that, you know, push me to a very low amount. You know, try to just to. To. To. To change the way I'm dominating you. Not to be, you know, get me off the high mount pretty much.

Are you always. Is it a slow. Is it a fast thing to go from low to slow? Fast, slow.

Very slow. Because I need to beat your arms because you're holding me down, and the.

Arms needs to come out.

It's a slow. It's a slow process. Okay.

And you just. Is there like a. Yeah.

So I use my legs against your arms.

Yeah.

So it's my legs pushing your arms.

But how do you get them. How do you get your legs into the elbows?

As long as this. You know, it has to come under the tip of your elbow because now the legs will start forcing your arms up.

So your legs aren't like, spread out there.

No, they're in. Your elbow cannot get inside my leg because that means I'm in a very low amount. And then I cannot attack because I cannot ignore that, because the moment that I attack, that will. You will start pushing my leg to push me up.

What's the secret to getting the second hand in?

There's two ways. Either you go four fingers inside, which is the hardest, because with the moment that your two hands are defending, you'll be blocking the. The. You know, the. The way. And I cannot clear an attack. Two hands against one. So I go thumb in. I go behind the ear.

Yep.

So my. My grip goes. Because for you to defend, you need to get there.

Yeah.

And when you get there, you elevate your elbow, expose the arm lock. So it's hard.

So you put the thumb in, and then there's the dreaded. Like the other person just waits for you to loop the arm over.

Yeah, but that. This over.

Once you get the thumb in, it's over. Okay.

No, but when I'm there, it's. If I get that. Because they're bridging, you know, they try. I'm. I'm not using their hand to post.

Now your head is.

My head is very close to the floor. When I've tried to bridge and, you know, my forehead would touch the floor, that would be used as a hand.

But it's not on the floor.

Not necessarily.

Okay.

Because if it's on the floor, my body's collapse over you.

Yeah.

So there's no place for my hand for me to work on your neck. So I need some space between us. So I don't completely.

Maybe you can bob up and down.

Yeah. I try to keep a gap between us.

So that pursuit, that takes many, many, many, many years. I don't know if you've seen Zero Dreams of Sushi. The doing the simple thing that's not so simple, but it kind of looks simple of the over and over and over and over and over. And presumably getting much better.

Simple.

It becomes very simple, but you're picking up details probably along the way. There's wisdom along the way. What is that? Is that there's, like, lessons that you just kind of accumulate over time. Like one training sessions, you'll see maybe like the positioning of the thumb, like this. Detailed positioning of the thumb or something like this. And then you like, okay, you, like, load that in.

They'll be very basic because there is not that many different ways. Maybe one, two. I just do one. Any other is not as strong because it's about getting a strong grip on your collar. I mean, the sun is. It's. The thumb goes inside, you know, is it the thumb in or four fingers in? But it's getting a strong grip on the call. As long as, you know, this is just holding and feeling strong.

So that's just two options. So it's the dynamic stuff along the way that. Yeah, and then some of that is timing, too.

It's timing.

Are you also, like, making people, like, faking them out, making them think about something else?

No, not at that point. That's not. Because I cannot fake anything else at that point because I will have to change my positioning to, you know, maybe to fake an arm lock. Then I have to move out from that. So then I will lose that, the control I have.

So what's the process towards mastery? If you were to convert that to something that generalizes beyond Jiu jitsu? How can you get that good at a simple thing?

Practice. And what that simple?

The same exact thing over and over.

It's just a matter of how long would take you.

So all that's true. That's true.

I mean, like I said, look how long it took me. People give up along the way.

There is intricacies to that journey towards perfection. There's a lot of people that do Jiu jitsu for decades and don't get better.

No, because they don't train the way they should. They don't train to get better. They train to get tough. That's a big difference. Most people, they train to get tough. So they are tough. You know, like we were talking before, they don't practice the weakness. You want to be good at. You want to be really good at Jiu Jitsu. You have to practice your weakness, not your strength. You have to practice everything, but you have to be equally strong in every position. They all exact the same. You know, you, your guard, top, bottom, side, control, top, bottom, turtle, half, guard, mount, back. I mean, you pick take down. It's. And then you get into details of escaping triangle, applying the, you know, triangle, escaping arm lock, different scenarios of, you know, it's the one thing is defending the amlock when you, you know, have your time, your arms very close to your body. The other thing is to defend the arms when your arm is, you know, almost getting. And then when he got your arm. So there's so many things to practice that you need to repeat them over and over again until you're confident enough that when you get there, you have a chance.

And you could do the same kind of thing for even the final stages of a cross choke. From up everything.

I mean, of course, like you don't practice escaping the amlock with a full arm straight because you know, it's, that's gone. I mean, you, you practice, you know, you practice escaping the arm lock. When he takes your arm, you have, you know, you have a chance of trying to escape, but you don't practice, you know, okay, take my arm. When I say go, go, I mean, you got, you know, you pop the arm. That is like you get injured doing that, escaping the cross call a choke. It's, I mean, escape, not letting the person get there. Yeah, you can escape. You can practice escaping triangles because, you know, it's like, it's you, you have a way better chance of escaping triangle than, okay, mount to me. Put both hands in my neck. I mean, it's over, you know, don't be there.

What's the best submission in jiu jitsu?

A choke.

I would say from which position. If I take a billion dollars to start in a position like in a submission, and you only get the billion if you get the submission, which one would you start choking them up, cross call choking them. Not from the back.

No. You have a better chance caping from the back.

Really?

Yeah.

Even with the hooks?

Even with everything.

Do you think some people disagree with you?

I don't care. I have a better escape. I have a better chance caving from the back than if you mount on me, put my hands on my neck. So I've been that many.

You were facing yourself and I will give you a billion dollars to escape you. You would, you would pick from the.

Back a thousand times over. Like, really no comparison.

You have like with hooks with like a triangle.

Doesn't matter. You can do whatever you want.

Like a body triangle. Okay, okay.

Like a thousand times over. No question.

So to you, the mount is a super controlling position.

It's not just because cross collar choking the mount. The moment that you put both hands on my neck, you know, you have to. Your arms needs to be very close to your body to attack. So that means there's Very little space between us. So that means there's very little space for you to work on your scape and the moment that you cannot bridge. Let's suppose I have. You know, the person has a good mouse, so you cannot bridge him off. What else? You don't have space to try to work on your defense. Being in the back, I have all the space around me to work on my defense. And my arms, I have the mobility to bring them anywhere. So I. Because of that, it gives you me a much better chance. And you cannot. I can move my body. You feel. You feel my back. You. You cannot pin me. You know I cannot take you off my back. First, I need to defend the choke. But you have no control over my body. So that means there's still a lot of movement that I can try to use to escape. In the mount, there's no movement. I'm pinned down, I cannot move, and I have no space between us to escape.

Well, the argument against that this is great is that on the bottom of mount I, the I do have my hands between. So you're saying they're pinned. There's nothing between where? I mean, you could get them. In theory, you could somehow you could, but there's no.

You can. But then there's no space. They'll be squeezed between our bodies.

If it's an incredible. If it's an incredible mount.

No, it does not mount. Like how standing. If I put both hands on your neck. If I'm going to go for the cross collar choke after I get my hands in, the next step is to pull you close to me. So it's this. My arms needs to be close, but I can put.

There's a hands that could do something.

They can come in. But yes, they are very limited space between us.

Yes. Yeah. No, I mean to push your body away to only through standing.

Not if your back is against the floor.

Okay. The argument against the mount is, or the argument for back controls being the most dominant position is even though I have hands, I can't really use them effectively as effectively.

Not in the mount. There's no space. There's no space. You can try. I mean, you can squeeze your hand in. I mean, there's still things that you could do, but they're so limited.

So if you pulled the 100 best competitors of all time, what do you think they would answer to that? Do you think most would agree with you?

I don't care. It will show me their skills, the ability to see.

Okay, so the perfect mount versus the perfect back control.

There's no question.

Okay.

There's no question for me. I mean, argue with me, like showed me, because I'm not. I'm not being stubborn because I'm being. I've been scientific. So explain it to me. Why the back? It would be harder. It would be better to be a position to finish than mount. If you can explain it to me, why I might change my mind.

I was trying to, but I don't have the cred. I'm like a middle school science student trying to talk to Einstein here. Okay, besides you, who do you think is the greatest jiu jitsu competitor of all time? Can you make the case for some of them? Marcelo Bushecha, Leandro Low.

I'll have to go with Buschecha because look at how many titles he has. I mean, he has by far more than Marcelo. Marcelo stopped quite early. Leandolo has eight, but is better than him.

What do you think makes Bhushesha so good?

He's a heavyweight that moves like a lightweight. He moves very fast, but he's very agile for his size.

So the agility combined with aggression.

So it's very hard to control him because he moves fast and he's 112 kilos, 115 sometimes, or 110, I'm not sure, but he's about around that. So 240 in pounds. So when you're agile 240 pounds, that makes it very hard to control you.

What about making the case for some others? What about the little guys? What about Marcelo? If you were to make the case for him being the strongest, what makes Marcelo good?

Marcelo Garcia is extremely technical. I mean, I think he's one of my favorite jiu jitsu fighters because in a technical way, I think he's probably one of the best.

Those raw technique and a bunch of different positions for submissions, he's.

He's not very powerful, you know, physically he's not very strong, but he can make himself very strong and his technique is very, very high level.

Have you ever trained with him?

No, I fought him twice.

Yeah.

But he's much smaller than me.

It's what happened in those matches.

The first fight I topped him, I think five minutes.

In which submission?

Choke from the back, collar choke from the back. And the second time I beat him by points. But a very large, I think 12, two, actually.

Just to continue, I wonder if. If John Donahue would agree with you about Mountain Back. I can't wait to. This is a bear versus lion conversation, but I'm looking. There's. There's statistics about. I'm not letting this go. There's statistics about. Oh, look at that Hodger. What do you know? Looking at Hodger Gracie statistics for most successful submissions. Choke from the back.

Yeah.

Is the most. So. So people panic scientists.

Because people panic when I'm out. They turn the back. I choked them out.

That's one explanation. But for people, it is interesting that of course this doesn't capture. This captures a lot of your major matches. And we should say that you've submitted most of your opponents. So you rarely win on points. Usually win submissions. Choke from back is most of them. Then cross choke from mount armbar is a lot too. So 18 from choke from back. 12 cross choke 10 armbar 5 RNC rear naked is for no GI. Okay.

So Ezekiel is very powerful. I took, I used is a strong weapon. Yeah.

Also from mount. Oh, that's when you can't get the one hand in.

No. Because the Ezekiel most times I use against people is the attack that as soon as I get to the mount when they trying to escape the open up and I get them, it has to be at that initial timing.

So it's not a thing you use to like bother them in order to create.

Either I get it right right away or I don't bother trying much. Because you need to keep one hand behind the head and that you're naturally on that position as soon as you mount most of the times. And the moment that you mount someone, no one accept that they go mounted. They're going to explore to get out. So holding the head, it gives you a better way to dominate them initially. You know, to deal with that explosiveness on the beginning, on the initial, on the beginning and then. But then you have to let go to try. You're very limited holding the head in terms of goats.

Shanji, I feel like he doesn't get enough credit that he deserves. He had an extremely dominant performance in competition. What about Salo and Shanji Hibero? What are your thoughts about what makes them so good? You had a bunch of tough matches with Shanji.

Yeah. And Salah eight times. Yeah. For eight times. Chande. I fought solo once.

What? I think I'm bringing up a sore point. Oh, did Shanji tap when you or did the time run out and that was the last time you guys faced each other?

Yeah, 2008.

That was incredible to watch. Also. I think you pull guard with 1 minute left working towards attacking. I mean, it's probably very tough to get anything. And for people who don't know time Ran out. You had something that looked like an arm lock. And Shanji looked like he may be tapping, but it looked like he might be just celebrating, which is.

I'm not sure. I. I'm not sure it was. I'm not sure because I think his arms just. Just straight. His arm time finish.

Yeah.

So I'm not sure if it was tapping to, you know, to let go. Time. Time's up. Or because of the. I'll say, most likely the time was up.

Yeah. And also there's a thing where you start, you realize there's only 3, 2 seconds left. Used to kind of start celebrating. You realize that Hydra's not going to be able to finish this armbar in the time left. So you start celebrating.

No, I think he topped to say the time is up.

The time is up. Anyway. What do you think that the longevity especially is impressive with. With. With Shanji, how long?

I think he doesn't get credit as much as he deserves because he pushed his career very far and the last few years he was on his best. So he's. If you would have stopped before, you know, people would remember him on his highest, but he kind of pushed more than his peak, let's say.

How hard is it for you to walk away? We'll talk about the journey into MMA as well, but you basically, especially with the second match against Bucheshi, basically walked away on top beating arguably the greatest competitor of all time and just walking away.

It wasn't that hard, to be honest, because that was something that I was considering for a while because the last few years of my career, let's say he was fighting MMA at the same time I was fighting Jiu Jitsu. And it was. It's very challenging to do both. Like, I don't. There's not another person who ever did that because the training is. Is a confliction with the what you train. Everybody who start doing mma, start focusing mma, their Jiu Jitsu gets worse because they stop training with the gi. Everybody, no exception.

Was your Jiu Jitsu also getting worse?

No, because I made sure I kept training with the GI and I kept fighting at least the world championship once a year. That was my goal. I'm like, I'm gonna go for mma, but I love Jiu Jitsu and I still want to fight the highest level. So I kept fighting once a year for a few years. It was a challenge. Especially because the two or three times when I competed at the Worlds, it was right after MMA fight I had. And then, you know, no gi, you don't you, you don't have the grips. So my grips, it made a big difference on my grip. So I was weaker grip wise. So I felt that. So I knew it was like it's, it's unnecessary risk because I'm not, if I cannot be 100% so why am I doing this? But I'm stubborn. I love Jiu Jitsu. That's like I love fighting Jiu Jitsu. I never loved mma. I've liked it, but I think if all Greece I wouldn't done it.

So the, the thing you felt the most is the grips.

Yeah.

Because you win a GI world championship without gripping. No, like just pretending it's no GI match. They get to grip you, but you don't.

No.

So grips are essential.

Of course. I mean how can you choke someone? Like it's if, if your grips are weak, you, you forearms will fatigue and then you will have no power and then you cannot do anything.

Yeah, you could still arm lock and you could. So I meant more not for the submission, but for the control of the game of it.

But you need to, need to grip to get there.

To get there.

And if you grip so weak, but.

You also have grips in. No GI can't use those grips.

No.

This is a thought experiment. So like I'm trying to understand how.

Essential like get a nogi gotta go fight with the gid. They panic.

They panic. Of course everyone panics. A bear panics when they're in the water with a shark. But that doesn't mean the bear can't still win. When it stops panicking and relaxes, it's not possible. That's another discussion. Can a bear beat a shark in the water? Actually I need to put maybe a polar bear because they're pretty good at swimming.

Okay, I say not possible for the no gig guy to win.

But the bears is a further discussion. What was to you the biggest difference between Mixed martial arts and Jiu Jitsu? What are some interesting differences, some interesting insights, even just about the grappling within both sports.

So the biggest difference for me between MMA and Jiu Jitsu is first is the speed. Like Jiu Jitsu, you know, like a 10 minutes match. I can take my time, there's no dangers that that forces me to move fast. MMA, you have to be 100% sharp and fast from first second of the fight because punches are coming knocked out anytime. One mistake, you're out. You just don't have that like it's. I don't have to worry about quick submissions because it's all about the way my body is positioned. You know, my grips. It's easy to avoid. It's easier to see it coming. Like, it's like a quick submission, a surprise. It only works if you make a mistake, if you're not correct positionally, otherwise it's impossible. It's extremely difficult, mma. It's not, I mean, one split second mistake. And when the person comes, you have to respond, you have to. To match his pace. I mean, you can slow down, but it's like you, you're forced to respond. So much farce is that it's a lot more physical. A lot more. And you need to be physical. Much better conditioning faster. It's explosiveness, it's much harder.

Is it possible in MMA to calm.

Things down if they change the rules? Yeah, five minute rules. No.

Ah, I see. So like, I, I just meant actually technically speaking, is there ways to, to take an opponent that's being exceptionally aggressive?

You can clinch, clinch, but then he takes it down, he keeps moving. Something is hard to, to control that pace. You can, you don't. If you play defense, you, you save more energy than if you try to be the aggressor and respond.

And even getting to the clinch is very difficult.

Yeah, they, you have no way to hold yourself there. So that was the biggest challenge for me in MMA is, is the speed, because I'm a very slow start fighter. If you look at my matches, I start very slow because if I go hard, you know, I fatigue faster. So for me, that was the hardest part of, is to start fast.

What about on the ground? Is there something different, more challenging on.

The ground, being in the bottom? Yes. There's punches.

Yeah. How fundamentally different is Jiu jitsu with punches on the ground?

That changes everything. Everything.