Tal Wilkenfeld: Music, Guitar, Bass, Jeff Beck, Prince, and Leonard Cohen | Lex Fridman Podcast #408

I am standing on the edge of the cliff the entire night, and if I, you know, mess something up, mess it up, like, what even is a mistake. But if I do, like, a clunker or whatever it is, it's like, so what? Like, I wouldn't have played half the stuff that I'm playing if I wasn't constantly standing on the edge of the cliff, like, wild.

Why stand at the edge of the cliff?

Because at the edge of the cliff is all possibilities.

The following is a conversation with Tal Wilkenfeld, a singer, songwriter, bassist, guitarist, and a true musician who has recorded and performed with many legendary artists, including Jeff Beck, Prince, Eric Clapton, Incubus, Herbie Hancock, Mick Jagger, Jackson Brown, Rod Stewart, David Gilmour, Pharrell, Hans Zimmer, and many, many more. This was a fun and fascinating conversation. This is the Lex Friedman podcast to support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Tal Wilkenfeld. There's a legendary video of you playing with Jeff Beck. We're actually watching it in the background now. So for people who don't know, Jeff is one of the greatest guitarists ever. So you're playing with him at the 2007 Crossroads Festival, and people should definitely watch that video. You were killing it on the. On the bass. Look at that face. Were you scared? What was that experience like? Were you nervous? You don't look nervous.

Yeah, yeah, I wasn't nervous. I think that you can get an adrenaline rush before stage, which is natural, but I think as soon as you bring fear to a bandstand, you're. You're, like, limiting yourself. You're kind of, like, walling yourself off from everyone else. If you're afraid, like, what is there to be afraid of? You must be afraid of making a mistake, and therefore you're coming at it as, like, a perfectionist. And you can't come at music that way or it's not going to be as expansive and vulnerable and true. So, no, I was excited and passionate and. And having the best time. And also, you know, the fact that he gave me this solo. The context of this performance is that this was a guitar festival. It's one of the biggest guitar festivals in the world because Eric Clapton's the festival, and there's, like, 400 guitarists that are all playing, like, solos all night. And we were, like, towards the end of the night, and I. I could tell, like, Jeff, like, got, like, a kick out of, you know, I'm. I'm not gonna solo on, like, one of my most well known Songs Cause of end his lovers. Well, Stevie Wonder wrote it, but people know Jeff for that song and his solo on it. Like, I'm gonna give it to my bass player. And, like. And he did. And, like, he took it. He's like, bowing and, like, that. That. That, like, he didn't have to do.

That, but you really stepped up there.

It just. It just shows what a generous musician he is. And that's evident in his playing across the board. He is a generous, loving, open musician. He's not there for himself. He's there for the music. And he thought, well, this would be the perfect musical thing to do. And it kind of all started, like, when I went to audition for him, which was an interesting experience because I got. I got food poisoning on the plane. And so, like, literally when the plane landed, I went straight into an ambulance, into a hospital overnight. The manager picked me up, and I showed up at Jeff's door, which is like a three hour drive, like, through windy country roads. And he answered the door, he's like, okay, you ready to play? So we went upstairs and started, like, rattling off the set. And when it came to this song, Casa Venita's Lovers, he just said solo. And he. He loved it and kept the solo in it. So that's kind of how. Because that. There was no bass solo before I was playing in his band. So this whole thing was kind of new.

So even with food poisoning, like, you. You could step up. Yeah, that's just like, what? Instinct.

It's just being able to differentiate from, like, the body and from, like, expression music.

All right.

Yeah.

You know, it's interesting. You said fear walls you off from the other musicians. And what are you afraid of? You're afraid of making a mistake. You know, Beethoven said, to play a wrong note is insignificant. To play without passion is inexcusable.

Yeah.

Do you think the old man had a point?

Yeah. Different styles of music invite varying degrees of, I would say, uncertainty or unsafety in the way that people might perceive it. So, for instance, like, the tour that I was just on, like, playing Allman Brothers songs, I am standing on the edge of the cliff the entire night, and if I mess something up, mess it up, what even is a mistake? But if I do a little clunker or whatever it is, it's like, so what? I wouldn't have played half the stuff that I'm playing if I wasn't constantly standing on the edge of the cliff, like, wild. And so I don't care about those few little things. I care about the overall expression. And then there's other gigs that, for instance, if I got called for a pop or a country session or a show in those environments, they may want you to play safe. Like, just play the part and play it with a great groove and time and great dynamics and don't really veer away from the part and stuff. And I've done plenty of those gigs, too. It's just a different hat you put on.

What do you get from the veering, from the veering off the beaten path? You just love it. Or is that going to make the performance better? Like, why stand at the edge of the cliff?

Because at the edge of the cliff is all possibilities and unknown. You don't know what's coming. And I love being there in the unknown. Otherwise, it's just like, well, why are we doing this? Am I just like a clown on stage showing you my skills or what? You know, what I've studied in my bedroom. It's like, no, I want to be pure expression happening right now and responding in real time to everything that's happening. And anytime I'm not doing that, it's like, it's a waste of everybody's time.

Have you ever messed it up?

Real bad mess what up?

I mean, you know, comedians bomb. You're a big fan of comedy.

Yeah.

Have you ever bombed on stage?

Probably. I think it's all about recovery. And the more times that you fall off the cliff, the quicker you know how to recover and the varying ways that you can recover to the point in which it's concealed so much that maybe a listener might not even know that you're recovering.

And eventually you learn to fly. If we take that metaphor, all the way off the cliff, you know, you look all right.

I remember one time when I was really young. Well, not really young, but, like, when I was 21. What is 22? Yeah, exactly. But when I was first playing with Jeff Beck and we played at what I consider the best, the coolest jazz festival, it's Montreux Jazz. And, like, Miles played there. Everyone played there, and they have the best speaker system ever. I was excited for months. And the drummer, Vinnie, was, like, practicing for, like, eight hours in the bus on the way there. And everyone was, like, on fire on stage. And I remember playing a note, just one note that I really didn't like. And I let it go in the moment on stage. But as soon as I got off stage, I was really sad. And so I sat, like, on this road case. Everyone was out celebrating. I, like, sat on this road Sad face, like, boohoo. And then Claude Knobs, like the owner of the. You know, the whole festival came out to me. He's like, doll, what's wrong? And I'm like, I played a bad note. Such a child. And like, he. He said all this wise stuff that, you know, Miles Davis is. Had imparted to him. And, like, it fully cheered me up. He. He's like, is there anything that would make you feel better? And I was like, caviar. The dude came back 10 minutes later with this huge thing.

Oh, wow.

It was a joke. It was a joke. But he actually brought me caviar. But anyway, that's the. That's the one time that I remember being sad about a performance. Now I'm just like, okay, whatever. Like, it's done.

Was it a physical slip of, like, the fingers or was it. Did you intend to play that note that.

I can't remember. I. I can't remember if it was just a bad choice that I. That sounded like a clanger or why it happened. It was so long ago. But I. I don't get depressed about that anymore.

That'd be funny if that was like, your biggest and only regret in life is that note haunted you in your dreams.

And then like, you know, like, I'm on my deathbed and just. Everyone's just bringing me caviar because joke.

Went way too far. You. You talked about confidence somewhere. I don't remember where. So I want to ask you about how much confidence it takes to be up there. You said something that Anthony Jackson told you as encouragement. A line that I really like. That quote, on your worst day, you're still a bad.

That's actually a Steve Gad quote. And Steve used to tell that to Anthony because Anthony used to get real depressed if he did a wrong thing or not perfect thing. And Steve Gad used to say, say this to Anthony Jackson. And then Anthony was my first bass mentor or just mentor in general.

For people who don't know. He's a legendary basist.

He's a legendary bassist. And I. I started playing the bass when I was 17 and I moved to New York and I met Anthony and he started mentoring me bit in a very not typical way. Like, he, like, would just sit in his car with me for hours and talk music.

You guys just listen to music, analyze it.

Exactly. And that was the best form of learning, I think. Just like, well, what do you perceive here? And, well, I heard this and just discussing that jazz usually or no, all. All styles of music. And yeah, he Told me that story about on your worst day because you know, like. Yeah, even then, like when I was like 18, 19, I get sad sometimes about performances. Like I could have done this. It's like I don't do that anymore, thankfully, or I'd be miserable.

So you always kind of feel pretty good?

Yeah, yeah, now I do. Now it's just I sense the body feeling fatigued. Especially if it's a very long show like the ones I just did with three hour shows and we did one to three hour sound checks. So that's a lot of physical activity every day. So I just feel the body being tired, like fatigue. The ears are fatigued. That's about it. I don't really reflect on the show much.

You're almost like from a third person perspective, feel the body get tired and just accept it.

Yeah, I don't want to identify with it because then I'm like, then I'm tired, but I'm not tired. I'm usually like energized.

It's like with the food poisoning. The mind is still capable of creative genius even if the body is gone.

Yeah, something like that, yeah.

So no self critical component to the way you see your performances anymore?

There is, there is critique, but not in the way that it would diminish my sense of self. It's different. I can just kind of look at something and be like, okay, well actually next time I'll. I'll do this choice and this choice. Maybe, maybe this would serve the song better. Maybe this would help the groove feel more like this. But it's not like I suck because I did this and I'm a loser.

Do you think that's bad? Because even when I asked that question, I had a self critical thought that. Why'd you ask that question? That's the wrong question. I always have the self critical. Angie, in writing, is it necessarily a bad thing?

It depends if it's affecting you negatively.

What is negative anyway?

Well, if. If it brings your frequency down and you feel less joyful inside, unless you don't feel like complete, you feel less than, less worthy of something, then you could call that bad. If you aspire to not feel that way.

Yeah, I aspire to not feel that way in the big picture.

Yeah.

But in the little picture, like there's a pain is a little pain is good.

That's fair.

So confidence, you seem like in this performance you seem confident. You seem to be truly walking the, the bad motherfucker way of life.

I kind of a word that I prefer over confidence is Trust, because I think with confidence is almost like there's a belief assigned to it that I am this thing that you believe in. Whereas trust is just simply knowing that you can get up there and handle whatever is going to come your way. And it's more. It's more of an open feeling where it's like, yeah, I could. I could do this, sure, but not like I'm a bad. Like, you know what I mean? There's a huge difference because I've shared the stage with people who have a lot of confidence, and it can be like a brick wall. Just like fear is a brick wall.

So the brick wall is a bad thing. Like, the thing you have with Jeff.

Here on stage is not a brick wall.

There's no wall. There's chemistry.

Yeah.

How can you explain that? Chemistry. The.

The two of you had trust and lack of fear. Yeah. And also, I will say, you know, that each individual has developed likes and dislikes over their lifetime.

And.

And that can be like. In this case, we're just talking aesthetic likes and dislikes. So in this particular case, obviously, our likes and dislikes are very much aligned such that the things I do to compliment him, he enjoys and vice versa. But it could be two very trusting, open musicians on stage that don't have walls up, but their choices are very different. And one person likes heavy metal and the other person likes classical, so it's. It's got to be both.

So you guys were good at, like. Yes. Anding each other musically?

Like, definitely.

Is that where you're most at peace in a meditative way is on stage?

It used to be that it would only be on stage. It started with that. That was almost like my way into flow state. And meditation was playing music. And then back in the day when I'd kind of crash after shows, I wanted to change that. I wanted to always feel like I'm in flow state.

So have you succeeded?

I've gotten a lot better. I'm still obviously on the journey, but yes.

So you meditate. I think you said somewhere that you meditate before shows or just in general?

I meditate every day when I'm on tour with my band. I ask that we all meditate together for at least 20 minutes. And I don't dictate which type of meditation. I don't put on a guided meditation because everyone has their own thing they want to do. Maybe someone might be praying in their head. It doesn't matter. It's just the idea that we all put our phones down and we all are in One room connecting energetically, spiritually, and just letting our lives go for a sec, and then we walk straight on the stage, and it's always really connected. And there were a couple gigs where we ran out of time for that, and I could tell there was a major difference in the performance.

So it both connects you and centers you. All of those things.

Yeah. But then when I'm home, like, I love to meditate, and I've tried various styles of meditation and studied various types of things, so I don't do just one thing. I kind of customize it depending on where I'm at in my life.

You and the world lost Jeff Beck. A year ago. You told me you really miss him. How has the pain of losing Jeff change you? Maybe deepen your sense of the world?

You know, it's hard to accept that we won't create something musically again in this lifetime. But in terms of the grief, grief was easier for me because I went through a major grief period in 2016 and 17, and that was the first time I'd really gone through the process of grief in a non family situation, like with friends and mentors and people that I'd created with, which is different. It's a different kind of connection. When my grandparents died, it's like there was nothing left unsaid, and I was at peace with what was happening with this. When Prince died out of the Blue in mid-2016, and then Leonard Cohen died in November, that just tore me to shreds. Because Leonard Cohen was not just someone that profoundly inspired me musically and lyrically, but spiritually, we had a very deep connection. And that was the basis of a lot of our conversation, was spirituality. And so at that time, I felt like a piece of me went missing. And that was a very long process where I just stayed in my place and didn't want to play a note of music. I kind of wanted to just get rid of all my stuff. So I had a friend come over and he's like, you should just. Once you come to the Comedy Store, I'm like, comedy Store? What, am I going to go to some store and buy clown suits? What are you talking about? What's Comedy Store? He's like, no, no, no. The Comedy Store. The place like comedians go. I'm like, okay, well, I've never seen stand up. I don't. You know, I've seen Seinfeld on tv. That's like the extent of my standup experience. So he took me to the Comedy Store, and every single one of those comedians, like, embraced me. Like, I was family. It didn't even take a day. I was like, part of the family. And I made, like 25 best friends. And I ended up throwing all my stuff in storage and, like, finding a little room to stay in where I rented my gear out. And that was me paying my rent. Paying was me loaning the gear because I didn't want any responsibilities, financial. I just wanted to be completely free so that I could, like, just process it and not feel like I had to commit to anything work wise or creatively. I just wanted to unplug. And so this was like a fun and very different way to unplug because previously I may have just gone to a monastery and spent weeks at a monastery or months. But in this case, I was like, you know what? This is a different kind of experience. I'm going to just hang out with comedians and stay in this room with no responsibility.

Really?

Yeah. Other than to really deeply connect with this grief that I'm experiencing. I'm not going to negate it. I'm going to really fully connect to it. And I did. And it was tough. And then, you know, more people in 2017 were leaving. Greg Almond, Tom Petty. I mean, it was like, these are people that I worked with, all these people and, like, had great connections with them, and they were all going. And the world was mourning the loss of these people because of everything that they'd given to the world. They'd changed the world's lives, not just mine, because I knew them personally. And so that was also complicated. And why. For me, it was interesting to be grieving the loss of these musicians with comedians. And I learned a lot. It changed my life because I just learned to. I learned to laugh at absolutely anything. Everything. I mean, my grandpa had a really great sense of humor, too. My grandpa's a Holocaust survivor, and, like, he could just kind of, like, laugh at anything. And, like, so I already kind of have that in me. But being around all these comedians just kind of like, exaggerated that for me, and that really changed things for me for the better. So then when Jeff Beck died, it was like, okay, I've got these tools. I know what this is, and I'm gonna go through it again, and I'm gonna be on tour with Incubus in two days.

Yeah.

And so Mike Dunt from Green Day, he called me up and he said, hey, I know you're going through a lot. And I said, yeah, I don't even know what I'm gonna play. I really want a vintage jazz bass for this. And I only have a 70s one that I don't really think is appropriate. I really need a 60s one, blah, blah, blah. And Mike's like, I'm going to hook you up. He showed up to my place the next day with a truckload of old P basses and jazz basses and brought them all into my studio and I'm playing them and then I pull one out of the case and it's, it's Olympic white, just like Jeff Beck. And I play it and not only did I get goosebumps and started crying, but I looked over at Mike and same thing was happening. And he's like, I guess Jeff might be happy about this. And he's like, well, I didn't want to let this one go. I was just trying to cheer you up a bit and maybe loan it to you for the tour, but if you really want it, it's yours. And I was like, oh my God, this is like, what a. Like Mike Dunn is the nicest guy ever. So that happened. So that bassist name is Jeff and it's a white jazz bass and I played it on the Incubus tour. But yeah, I do feel like I'm more equipped to handle grief now.

Tell me about the Comedy Store a little bit more. Do you think comedians and musicians and some deep fundamental way are made from the same cloth? Like, are they spiritually connected somehow?

I think everyone's connected spiritually in the same way. So I think personality wise, comedians and musicians are quite different actually.

In what way?

Well, you'd have to subdivide even musicians into different categories too, because, you know, the thing that I appreciate about comedians is that, you know, you go to a restaurant with them and like, all the observational humor of like, they'll just, they'll notice everything and make you laugh about it. Which a really great songwriter does the same thing too. And my favorite lyricists like Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, they, you know, Warren Zevon, they add comedy into their lyric. And like, so those types of people I would liken to hanging out with a comedian, it's very different from like, say somebody that is an instrumental guitarist or something like that that they're, they're more focused on, whether it's like a kinesthetic thing or like a physical thing or whatever it is, they're not, they're not quite doing the observational thing in the same way. So I just appreciate, like, my favorite thing to do is go out and laugh, especially because, like, I can tend to be pretty analytical and be in my head and so anything that just kind of lets me be in my heart and just enjoy life, I think.

There'S a photo of you with Dave Chappelle on stage. What was that about?

So right after Leonard Cohen passed away, the Comedy Store threw me a birthday party. It was this crazy lineup and like, it was like I'd play a song with my band and then Jackson Brown sat in and sung a song. And then Dave Chappelle came up and said some jokes. It was like one of my favorite nights ever. Yeah, it was cool. It was a very healing birthday party.

Yeah, there's something magical about that place. It's really special.

Yeah, well, the mothership has some magic to it too. It's really cool. It's different. Totally different vibe, but like super awesome.

You said that Leonard Cohen is a songwriting inspiration of yours. I saw you perform a song, Chelsea Hotel, brilliantly on the Internet. It's about, for people who don't know, is his love affair with Janet Joplin. How does that song make you feel?

Great. I love that song.

Which aspect musically? The melancholy feeling, the hopeful feeling, the cocky feeling. All of it. Like every single line has a different feeling to it. Really?

Yeah. But as a whole piece, I appreciate it so much. I actually lived at the Chelsea Hotel and when Leonard and I first met, that was one of the first things we talked about was the, you know, I lived there where all that stuff went down before they tore it apart. And. Yeah, it's just a beautiful song.

You know what makes me sad? The way it ends I don't mean to suggest that I loved you the best I can't keep track of each fallen robin I remember you well in the Chelsea Hotel. That's all. I don't even think of you that often. You know that line, I don't even think of you that often. Always, like breaks my heart for some reason. Like how ephemeral, how short lasting, like certain love affairs can be. Just kind of like, huh, yeah. Do you think he meant it? I always think he doesn't. He's trying to convince himself of could.

Be both or either, you know, I mean, that's the beautiful thing about poetry and lyric is that it's supposed to be open.

Yeah. I wonder if it's also open to him. Depending on the day, you know.

Definitely. I mean, the thing that he taught me or his advice to me was when you're writing a song, look at it the next morning, like just first thing and read it and then take a walk, smoke a joint, read it again, go have a fight. With your, you know, daughter. Come back, read it again, get drunk, read it again, wait a week, read it again. Just so that from every state and every position, the wider the lens is going to be from an audience perspective. You want things to mean multiple things.

So there's one line I read somewhere that he regrets putting in the song. So I got to ask you about it. It's pretty edgy. It's about giving me head on the unmade bed. Yeah, I think that's a good line or bad line?

I think it's an amazing line. It's one of the best lines in the song.

Yeah. Right.

When he put that song out, obviously he didn't regret it, or he wouldn't have put that lyric in the song. I think what happened was that eventually word got out, either from him or from somebody else, that the song was about Janis Joplin.

Yes.

And so at that point, he regretted the indiscretion. So it wasn't that he regretted how great the line was. It was just, you know, the privacy factor. But then again, Leonard's known for rewriting his lyrics. In his live shows, you'll see a bunch of songs where it's like new lyrics. And he didn't do it. Cause he didn't like the old lyrics. He just did it because he could. Cause he's Leonard. And it's like, why not have fun with words the way musicians have fun, you know, improvising solos on stage? And he could have changed that line in Chelsea Hotel after, in retrospect. And he never did.

I remember you well in the Chelsea Hotel. You were talking so brave and so sweet. Giving me head on the unmade bed While the limousines wait in the street.

It's so powerful.

That's a powerful line. It just kind of shocks you.

Well, that's what's so great about it. Yeah.

But also heartbreaking because it doesn't last. Especially, actually, to me, it adds more meaning once, you know it's Janis Joplin. It's like, okay, these two stars kind of collided for a time.

Yeah. But. But what? Why is it heartbreaking? It could also be just beautiful that they had a little fling.

Yeah. Everything is beautiful.

Thank you.

Even the dark stuff. What's not beautiful? Everything is beautiful. If you. If you look long enough and deeply enough. What were we saying? Oh. What do you think about Hallelujah? Like what? What do you think about the different. Different songs of his? And what. Why'd you choose Chelsea Hotel to perform?

Because I lived there, and it was like it meant Something to me to sing. To sing that song. And actually, when I put that song out on YouTube, that's when he sent me an email. He's like, hey, do you want to. Do you want to come over?

And so this is how you guys connected?

No. We met in a rehearsal studio. I ended up watching their whole rehearsal and sitting there next to Roshi, his, like, 105-year-old monk, which was really great. I remember when I was, like, shaking his hand. So I was just me and Roshi on the couch watching Leonard with his band, and we were shaking hands, and he grips my hand like this. Doesn't let it go. And he said. He looked at my eyes. He said, where are you? And I said in the handshake. Yes.

Wow. He passed the test.

Passed the Roshi test. And then what's funny was that the next thing that happened, about five minutes later was Leonard Cohen got down on his knees and opened up a jar. I'm not kidding you. Of caviar. This is not a callback.

Well, it is in a way. In a deep, fundamental way.

He started feeding the monk caviar.

Yeah.

And that healed my Montreux Jazz Festival sadness forever. The end.

Do you think there's a kind of, like, weird. Like, there's a sense of humor to it all somehow? Like, like, why does that happen? Why? Why does that happen? Why? Like, why stuff like that happens or that the. The Jeff Bass speaks to you?

Why do we need to know you.

Believe in that stuff and what stuff? That there's a rhyme to the whole thing somehow. Like, there's a frequency to which magical things of that nature can happen.

Divided about that answer, because I think just things are flowing. I don't necessarily. I don't think anything's kind of, like, planned out, like, through time.

It's like an orchestra playing of different experiences and circumstances that are somehow connected.

I think everything's connected. So.

Yes, but predetermined means, like, I don't.

Believe in the predetermined stuff necessarily, which is different from whatever your previous karma is. And karma is a whole other kind of conversation. I don't mean karma as in, like, good karma, bad karma, just karma, meaning the collection of things you've acquired over this lifetime or other lifetimes, just whatever that is is going to influence your future.

Well, you had a really interesting trajectory through life. Maybe I just read it that way because I've had a lot of stuff happen to me that's like, lucky feels lucky. And sometimes I wonder, like, huh, this is weird. It does feel like the universe just kind of throws stuff at you with a chuckle. I don't know. Not you, the proverbial you1.

Yeah.

You said you sometimes watch classic movies to inspire your songwriting. And you mentioned watching Taxi Driver. I love that movie. And I think you mentioned that you wrote a love song based on that movie. So Travis Bickle, for people don't know, is the taxi driver, and he's deeply lonely. What do you think about that kind of loneliness?

I think that loneliness is a product of feeling separate from the world and separate from others, and that the less you experience that separation, the less you'll feel lonely.

How often have you felt lonely in this way, separated from the rest of the world?

It's less and less every single year because I work very hard at it.

Feeling a part of the world.

Yeah. Just meditating and studying scriptures.

Don't you think that. I mean, isn't there a fundamental loneliness to the human experience?

Just in what sense?

That all the struggles, all the suffering you experience is really experienced by you alone? Is it maybe at the very bottom, it's not.

It's kind of all the same stuff.

You didn't feel alone in 2016, 2017.

I felt like I lost a piece of myself that I had given to somebody else. And I feel like people feel that in romantic exchanges, whether it's long term, short term, you give a piece of yourself, and then if that person dies or you break up with that person, you feel like you've lost that piece of yourself, which I feel like is very different experience than if you just are opening yourself rather than giving a piece of yourself, you're just opening yourself to somebody or something.

So opening is fundamentally not a lonely experience.

No, it's a loving experience.

And then losing a piece of yourself can be.

Yeah, because you can't really. You can't lose a piece of yourself if you are the same self as every other self.

Right, right. So if you see yourself as together with everybody, then there's no losing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a beautiful way to look at it. You said that there's something healing about being in an empty hotel room with no attachments except your suitcase. You know, a lot of people talk about hotel rooms being a fundamentally lonely experience, but you're saying it's. It's healing.

Yeah, because I just get to sit there and not worry about all this stuff that. Like this. These meaningless attachments. I got my suitcase with my necessities for my three suitcases sometimes, and I can just sit there and meditate and Just be with myself. And it's so awesome. And usually, like, you plan your touring for, like, you know, you, you. You kind of get the business aspect of things taken care of in advance, so you can kind of just really be flowing day to day on a tour. And it's a great feeling. It's funny because this last tour that I did, we didn't have hotels every night. We had hotels maybe like, once a week. And I hadn't done that before. Usually I'm frequently in hotels, so I didn't get that space that I'm really used to getting.

You missed them.

I very much missed it and had to be very creative. And I ended up, like, going into the back lounge when everyone was asleep and meditating back there, or before everyone woke up and I actually joined, there was an online meditation retreat that was happening. It was like 12 hours a day of silent meditations that happens once a year. And I love this particular group of people. And they knew I was on tour, so they're like, just join when you can. And so I was on the tour doing the meditation retreat at the same time. It was so fun. It was so fun because I was like, in the back lounge. The bus is, like, moving around like this. My laptop, the zoom is like. And I'm just like, sitting, like, meditating. It was like, yeah, this is the silence.

So they're all connected to zoom and just doing silent 12, 12 hours a day.

Yeah, that's cool. These particular retreats that I started doing, it's not straight silent. There are, you know, silent sits every hour for 50 minutes and then there's some talks. And like, these people that I've been working with are really cool because they're integrating spiral dynamics into Zen. And it's like the coolest combination.

What's spiral dynamics?

I like Ken Wilber. Do you know Ken Wilber integral theory?

Yes. Can you explain a little bit? So he. I vaguely know of him because of kind of this notion that everything is one. Like, everything is integrated, that every field has truths and falsehoods and we should integrate the truths.

Yeah. It's hard to explain how it applies to this type of meditation because it's in the guided parts of the meditation that this whole holonic theory is brought in about transcending and including every aspect of your being. Because he talks about levels of development in consciousness and how this applies to every single religion or non religion, that there are these levels of development that go all the way up to enlightenment. No matter what you start off with. It could Be Christianity, Buddhism, Vedanta doesn't matter anything then. I just like it when everything is, and everyone is taken into account. It doesn't matter where you're coming from that there's a way to, to be self realized, self actualized. There are self actualized beings from all walks of life with very, very different paths. There's no one path. I mean, in this particular retreat I do, there's like a lot of silence, sits and then there's some guided meditations. But this, I've tried a lot of different avenues and they're all great. So I wouldn't just say, just try this one thing. Like I've studied like the Upanishads, like with Vedanta teachers and like gone through those texts for months and months and stayed at monasteries. And like how they break it down makes total sense to my mind and heart. And like my, more importantly than my mind, like my inner knowing, like it resonates.

Inner knowing?

Yeah, because like your mind is like the thinking tool. Like it's not you, you're not your mind, you're not your thoughts, you're not your body, you know, so it's like just the. You like that knowing that you have. That's kind of when something resonates there. That's usually when you go with something.

What was living in a monastery, like, it's the best. What are we talking about? Like what?

It's just an empty room with like a tiny single bed and a sheet and a pillow and that's it?

That's it.

You have to eat the same thing as everyone.

What's the food like? What is it?

Very plain, cheap, basic food. Which is, you know, funny for someone like me because I'm, I'm, I'm pretty particular about my diet.

You brought over like, like 20 different ingredients.

Yeah.

So what was the like day in the life of Tal and a monastery.

You wake up at 5am to the bell and you go and meditate like constantly till bedtime. Other than two meals.

How are you sitting? Are you in a group? Is there other people there and you're just sitting there.

Well, if you're talking about the Zen monastery, because I stayed in Zen monastery and I did a thing with the guy I was telling you about, that kind of the integral Zen thing where he uses Ken Wilbur's work in combination with Zen, that's a little bit different because he does talks, we talk about things. And that's very separate from the Vedanta monasteries I've stayed at, which there's very little Meditation in terms of sitting silently. Instead, we are meditating on the scriptures, like the Upanishads, and we're diving into that.

What were the differences, the takeaways from the experiences, the two different. The integral one and the. The meditating on the scriptures.

They both incredibly, have been incredibly helpful to me because the Vedanta. Anytime I go into my head about something, the answer is there based on this knowledge. And with the Zen monastery, it's like you just gotta put your butt in the seat and sit and wait and maybe something will happen, maybe it won't, but just keep sitting. And it's very disciplined. And you go through a lot. Your body's purging a lot. There's a lot. And you don't necessarily have the answers as to what is happening. And so I think for somebody like me, I need both. I need to be in a place where there's complete uncertainty, but complete discipline and just doing the regimented thing. And then there's the me that feels very satisfied from an analytical standpoint, understanding what's happening, like what is the gross and the subtle body. And I want to understand these things about what it is to be a human. So I. I like them both.

Understand what it means to be a human. So that, like having that patience and just sitting with yourself helps you do that.

Yes. More so like the analysis part.

Oh, so the analysis, the actual. Okay, got it.

But sitting with yourself, there's no better education.

Yeah.

Of like facing every demon and it's all going to come out and it's not going to be pretty. But then there's things that happen on the other side of it that are so profound.

Have you met most of your demons?

I've met the demons that have come out.

Oh, there might be more.

Who knows? Yeah.

Okay. Well, to be continued. Since I think I heard you say that you wrote a love song after Taxi Driver kind of love songs. Do you write more of Broken? So you're a songwriter first. For people who don't know, they might think you're primarily a bassist, but you're wrong. So do you write mostly broken heart ones or like hopeful love songs in Love songs About to be in Love songs Soon to fall in Love Songs.

Well, the last album I put out is pretty self explanatory as to what that is.

A lot of pain that one there was.

Yeah. Some of it was storytelling and some of it was real experience. And it's always like a combination of things, like I serve the song. So sometimes you use your own life experience to Tell a song, and sometimes you may watch a movie, and part of that script merges with your own experience, and that tells the right story for the point you're trying to make in the song. So it varies from song to song in terms of how autobiographical it is.

I always think at the end of the Taxi Driver when What's her name? Betsy? Because Travis becomes a hero. She tries to get with him and he rejects her. That's powerful.

My favorite love songs are the ones where you're not sure it's about romantic love or love of God or love of life or just pure, just love. Like, I was thinking, like, George Harrison writes songs like that. Like, what Is Life? Or like Bob Dylan's song that George Harrison covered, if not for you.

Yeah. Just grateful. Grateful for his love.

Yeah. Right, right. That's kind of like where. Well, what I'm experiencing now and so who knows what'll end up coming out.

But you've been writing this kind of.

Yeah, I've been writing a little bit. I don't have an intention of putting something out in any particular time frame, but I'm just writing and letting things flow. And. Yeah, I love. There's like, a bunch of, like, Leonard Cohen songs too, where you're like, there's so many ways to interpret this song and there's so many ways. I just love songs that don't. Aren't, like, so, like, specifically about one.

Thing, you know, I. I really love the song. To play it, to listen to Wonderful Tonight by Eric Clapton, and I thought it was pretty straightforward.

Yeah.

And then I had a conversation with Eric Weinstein, who's a mutual friend of ours, and he told me it's not about what I thought it's about.

Oh, yeah? What did he say?

It's a more complicated story. It's actually a man. So Wonderful Tonight is a story about a man being just finding his wife beautiful and appreciating it throughout. But he said it was actually a man missing. His wife is imagining that she's lost because of the decisions he's made in his life. So it's pain. And he had a long, beautiful, Eric Weinstein like explanation of why.

I love those.

Have you and Eric played music?

No, we've just hung out and had very long conversations about everything.

He's a bit of a musician, you know.

Yeah.

Okay. You picked up the guitar when you were 14. Let's go back. And one interesting thing that just jumped out at me is he said, you learned how to practice in your head because you only had 30 minutes?

Yeah.

Your parents would only let you practice for 30 minutes?

Yeah.

I read somewhere that Coltrane did the same. He was not the practice part, but he was able to play instruments in his head as a way to, like, think through different lines, different musical thoughts, that kind of stuff. I just maybe. Can you tell the story of that?

Yeah. I just grew up in a environment that was focused on academia, and I fell in love with guitar and really just wanted the focus to be that. So my limit was 30 minutes a day for. I don't even remember how many times a week. Might have been every day or five days a week, whatever.

Your parents didn't want you to play more than that?

No. And so I just learned how to visualize the fretboard in my head, and I'd practice all day in my head. It's kind of like, you know, the Queen's Gambit, the TV show with Anya Taylor, Joy, and she just, like, sits it on the ceiling. I used to do that with the fretboard. Yeah. Just practice. And I actually recommend it to every musician because if you're just practicing here, you don't know what is more dominant necessarily. Is it this or is it your motor skills? If you just take that away and do it here, you know, you've got it. So I'm glad that that happened and that I learned how to do that and in terms of, like, learning fast, because I had to learn how to. Well, I had to try to absorb a lot of information in a short amount of time. When I did have the instrument, I kind of would do things in bursts. Even in that half an hour, I would just go play for a couple minutes, and then I'd stop for a minute, and then I'd do it again. And I noticed there was a huge difference between the first time and the second time. Whereas if I just kept repeating stuff, it would be, like, much slower.

Well, what did you do in that minute?

Just hang out, Just integrate? Yeah, just like, my brain. It's like my brain was telling me, like, just chill out for a sec. That's enough information. Let me take a second to integrate that. That's what at least what it felt like to me. And the most hilarious thing happened a couple months ago. I know you're friends with Andrew Huberman. So he put out some clip which was a part of one of his podcasts about learning. And he said that there was some research done on learning fast, and that if you practice something for, you know, a minute or so, and then you let your brain rest for 30 seconds or a minute. That in that 30 seconds or a minute, your brain does the repetition 20 to 30 times faster and in reverse. And I was like, whoa, that's so cool. Because that's what I used to do when I was a kid. Like, now there's science that proves that. Which is really cool for musicians to know that that's a good way to practice efficiently. Because some musicians, they practicing for six, seven, eight hours a day. I've never done that. I've never practiced more than an hour a day. Even now, like, I've just, just. That's my technique and it works.

Are you also practicing in your head sometimes?

Now I'm not practicing as much. I'm more always writing songs in my head. So that's why I like silence. That's why I love being in the empty hotel room and being alone. Or, you know, songs come to me while I'm showering or walking around doing the dishes or occasionally when I'm hanging out with friends or like comedians and people just like, say shit. And I'll be like, that's a cool line. Just like, jot it down my phone.

It's not always musical. It's sometimes lyrical.

It's more lyrical than musical now because it's like, for me, it's like, well, there's so much music in the world. If I'm going to write a song, I want the song to be about something interesting. And so, yeah, the words matter to me.

Yeah. And the right work and it has so much power. It's crazy. Like we said Leonard Cohen. And then they're often simple. The really powerful ones are simple.

And like, when you mentioned Hallelujah, you know, he wrote like 80 verses to Hallelujah before he narrowed it down to like four. And it took him like 15, 20 years to write that song. So some writers will do that, like, and then other writers just vomit it out. And it's. And it's beautiful. Like, I've heard that Bob Dylan or Joni Mitchell, they're like, they're fast writers. They just kind of. Just kind of comes out.

That makes me feel so good to know Leonard Cohen wrote so many verses of that. Like that. That was. That was so deliberately crafted.

Yeah.

Extensively, rigorously crafted.

He just would spend months and years and constantly refining, refining.

Do you have songs like that for yourself or you refine?

For many years, it's song dependent. Some just flow out and it's like, oh, there it is. Everything's there. And then other songs, it's like, you might have Started it with music, and there's some words that come out, and then trying to fill in the rest of the words. Sometimes it can be like a square peg in a round hole, and other times it's like, oh, no, I can. You know, depends. Sometimes it becomes like a math problem, and hopefully it doesn't, because you just want to say what's right for the song. And usually when you, you know, write it all together, like the lyric and the melody and the chords and everything's kind of developing at once, at least for the first draft, that's very, very helpful.

Mm.

Like, Sondheim used to write like that. Just, like, he wouldn't move on until, like, he would just go this way. Whereas for me, it's just like, I'll just go with what seems to be coming naturally, and I'll just let it be what it is. And then you come back and you say, okay, well, what. What. What do I have to do to this? Now look, what's needed.

Just to linger on the learning process. What would you recommend for young musicians and how to get good. What are the different paths a person can take to understand it deeply enough to create something special?

I think, first and foremost, understanding why you are playing music, if it's because you have something that you're trying to express or that you're just in love with expression itself, with art itself, those are great reasons to start this journey.

The why should be.

I think the why is really important because it's a jagged lifestyle, and there's a lot in it. And so if you don't have your purpose, if you're not centered in your purpose, then all that jagged lifestyle is probably going to get to you.

Jagged.

It's jagged. Yeah, it's jagged. It's. It's all over the place. It's uncertain. It's one thing, one moment, and a completely different thing another moment. You never know what's going to happen. And if you thrive on variety, which I love, variety, then it's perfect. But also, every human being needs a certain amount of certainty and structure. And so the certainty can come from your inner knowing, knowing that you're doing exactly what you want to be doing and knowing what your purpose is in doing it, in this expression. Otherwise, you're just kind of like a leaf blowing in the wind.

Like, in the early days, touring, just playing clubs seems, like, tough.

Yeah, it's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot of, like, the physical labor aspect of it is really hard. Playing on stage to two people or 2,000 or 20,000. That doesn't make a difference. I mean, it makes a difference to the ticket sales which informs what level of luxury you might have on the road or not. But other than that, it's just people there listening to music. The music doesn't change.

Does it make it tougher when it's two people versus 200?

No.

So even if nobody recognizes whatever the thing you're doing.

No, because the idea is to be doing, like, having a great conversation on stage.

The audience can come and go.

Yeah, I mean, I always like. Like there's certain points in shows where I. I'm just like. I consciously. I'm like, oh, yes, there's an audience over there. Because I'm so, like, wrapped up in whatever's happening on stage.

You forget yourself.

Or maybe I'm remembering myself.

Oh, damn. Callback somehow feels like one. Okay, you think every instrument is its own journey. As you play guitar, you play bass, you sing. Just the mastery of an instrument, or let's avoid the word mastery, the understanding of an instrument is its own thing. Or are they somehow like physical manifestations of the same thing?

Both. You know, like, every instrument has its strengths, beauty, limitations, range, like possible range that can, you know, be extended to some degree or another, depending on who you are. Like trumpet or something. You know, like, certain people can hit higher notes than others, blah, blah, blah. But that being said, we're all playing the same 12 or 24 or however you divide the octave, that many notes, you know, we're all playing the same notes. So in that sense, it's all the same thing. It's just music. Or better yet, it's just art or expression. But yeah, every instrument has, you know, you got to go through the physical. The physical aspects of it, the motor skills and all of that. And hopefully you get through that really quickly. So you can get to the expression quickly because if you get stuck in just that first phase, that's be really boring.

Yeah, but that's a pretty long phase. The technical skill required to really play an instrument.

For some people it's a long thing, and some people it's short. It very much varies. It might have to do with how you learn and getting to know your strengths in learning. Are you more oral or more like. Is it more like. Like, what's. What's your strength and playing off of those strengths? So for me, like, it was like. Like I was saying earlier, it was just an intuitive thing that I knew. I can feel when my brain is full like that. It needs processing time. And so I listen to that, I don't push past it. Even if it's like one minute and I do something, I'm like, okay, silence. And then I come back and I trust that it's going to be there and is there. So just trusting yourself, I think is really important. Trusting that you know you better than anybody else is going to know you. So that's the kind of thing with teachers that can be either really, really helpful and great or really not great. Like, I'm primarily self taught. I've had amazing mentors of all walks of life and I think I'm unbelievably blessed that my mentors are some of my favorite musicians on earth, whether it's Leonard Cohen or Jeff Beck or Wayne Shorter, whoever. These people are like, they are my favorite musicians. So not everyone has that opportunity. But what, the opportunity that we have now that I didn't have when I was starting is that everything's on YouTube, like every interview with every genius like you. You don't need to necessarily have these people in person now. I mean it. And, and then I'll say to that yes and no. I, I agree with myself and then I don't agree with myself. And, and the reason is I do believe that there is something that happens when you're in person with a master, in some cases that there is something transferred that is not intellectual, it's not spoken. There's something else that happens that can happen that I've experienced and I really value that.

And I think that applies to specific disciplines. And also generally I've been around Olympic gold medalists just to hang out with them for several days. And there's something, there's something about greatness, there's a way about them that kind of permeates the space around them. You kind of learn something from it. Even if you don't practice that particular discipline. Yeah, there's something to it if you're, if you're able to see it. I also like what you said about the playing stuff in your head, that it forces you to not be lost in the, in the physical learning of the instrument. I think that's one of the things I probably regret a little bit. So I play both piano and guitar and I've become quite over the years technically proficient at the instruments. But I think my mind is underdeveloped because of that meaning. Like I can't really. Like I can feel the music when it's created, but I can't create out of the feeling. I haven't practiced the projecting the feeling onto the Music, you know, I'm not like a musician. I'm just. It's. It's a different muscle. This, I think, is. If you really want to create beautiful things, you have to. The creation happens here. Not. I think it's more here or whichever. It's some part of the body, but it's not with your fingers.

Yeah. Because I think the fingers is more this.

Sure.

And then.

Yes, it is here.

Yeah.

Right. And it's just nice that you said that because it's probably really. It's really good advice if you want to create.

Yeah. Slowing down. Really great, too.

What do you mean slowing down?

Slowing everything down. It could be, you know, I can play something really fast, but I may want to, like, practice it. Yeah. Like.

Go slow as possible because there's all.

These micro movements and that are happening that if you just go like, you can't pay as close attention to the exact tone that you're pulling from each note. And there's a lot to pay attention to, to how my fingers are touching the string here. Like, I can change my tone a million ways just by the direction of this finger. And same with how this lands and how hard I'm attacking the string. And with what intention am I hitting the string emotionally, physically. And so even if you can go play that so slow, see how locked into a pocket you can be. See how you, like, feel every aspect of that. Because then when it gets sped up, it's still there with you.

Yeah, that's brilliant.

It's kind of like the transcended and included thing that Ken Wilber talks about.

And I guess that's what meditation can do for you, is to really listen, to observe every aspect of your body, the breath and all this. Here you're observing every element, like every super detailed element of playing a single note.

Yeah.

That's cool that if you speed it up, it's still there with you.

It is. I. Yeah, it is. Because I hear there are certain people, it's like they play really fast, but I don't hear the fullness of tone always. And it's like. Well, it's probably because maybe they didn't. Maybe it's because they didn't slow it down and really sit with each note and let it, like, resonate through their whole being. It's spiritual. It's like a spiritual expression. It's not just like, you know, it's not. It's not a sport. A lot of people treat music like a sport.

Yeah. Since starting to learn more, like Steve Aria Vaughn vs Jimi Hendrix I would spend a quite a long time on single notes or just bending. Just like, just listening to what you can do with Ben's spending, just thinking, like people like B.B. king and all these blues musicians, like, spend a career just making a single note cry.

Yeah.

There's like an art form to that.

Yeah.

And I think you putting it, like taking it really slow, which I never really thought of, is really good idea. Like really slow it down.

That's the same with like, sitting with your own emotions. It's like we. When emotions are overwhelming to us, we get real busy. We move real fast because it's like we don't want to feel our feelings. Those are the moments to slow yourself.

Down and observe it. Anger, jealousy, and just be with.

Just be with it. Be like. Be cool with it. Like, love it. Love the anger.

It's all beautiful. Can you educate me on the difference.

Between bass, Bass and bass? Okay, well, one is a fish.

At least I pronounced it correctly. That's good. It's all about the base.

Can you pronounce my. My name?

Tall.

Wow. Most people say tal. Tal or tall.

You said tall. Who says tall? Like, so many people in the south, maybe, I don't know.

But the fact that you.

Oh, honey. Tall.

You get extra points.

Tall. I can't. I didn't know this is a game. Am I winning? Yeah, I like winning. How do you play the bass? What's the difference in finger style and slap?

Slap is like this. Finger style is like this.

You ever played bass with a pick?

Yeah, sometimes.

I'm not accusing you or anything.

No accusation taken.

I don't know if these are sensitive.

Topics, like, if that would be pretty hilarious about. Sensitive. About bass techniques. But, like, not about, like, love.

It just looks so cool to, like, slap it. And I don't understand what that's about. Like that thumb thing that.

Yeah, I slap less. A lot less. Almost never, actually. It has a very distinctive sound and does a very distinctive thing to a song. That is not something I hear needed very often in music today. Yeah, but in certain styles, like funk, it sounds awesome and it makes sense. It was something that was a bit overused at one point. For instance, like my mentor, Anthony Jackson, he refused to slap. Like, he actually said he, if you want me to slap, I'll leave this gig. So I'm not like that.

See, that's why I said sense to see. I was like, reading into it because he was.

He's sensitive.

I was feeling the spiritual energy of the sensitivity of the top Anthony Jackson.

And then I Mean, I'm playing electric bass. So generally speaking, you don't particularly want to hear electric bass on Straight Ahead Jazz anyway. You want to hear an upright bass. But if I was to play jazz on an electric base, I might even kind of like palm. Palm mute, you know, like, instead of going, like, I might go to very. Anything to kind of make the. The notes shorter and less resonant and like kind of fade away quick because the upright does that naturally. And I have like a different bass, like a hollow body harmony that sounds closer to an upright that I'll use in. In certain. Like on my song under the sun that I put out, that was on a harmony base. And it has like kind of an upright acoustic kind of tone to it, but with more sustain.

And is jazz fusion the. The style where you have like an electric bass? Can you educate me with.

Again, you can. You can have both. You can have both on. You can have either on anything. There's no, like, real rules.

Now, I've heard you say something interesting, which is. Well, a lot of things you say is interesting.

Just one thing, just one.

That.

And it's what time you're leaving.

What time was that again?

Three minutes.

That. It's maybe easier sometimes to define a musical genre by the don'ts than the than do's. The don'ts. Then the do's. What are the don'ts of jazz and rock? What are the don'ts of jazz fusion? What are the don'ts? In any domain of life, what are the don'ts?

The don'ts is just to please leave your fear at the door. And your do's is to be open to anything and open your ears, like respond to what's happening. Now, I think that quote you're talking about might have been more about an individual musician's unique sound. Because everyone has their sound. If they've developed their voice and they've listened to their own aesthetic preferences, of which everyone is slightly different. Everyone has slightly different likes and dislikes, then you'll have a unique sound on your instrument. And your unique sound is defined more by the choices you make rather than. I mean, it's equally as defined by the choices you make and the choices you don't make. I mean, it's the flip side of the same coin, really.

Yeah. There's certain musicians, you can just tell it's them. Just you hear a few notes and you go, okay, it's them. Sometimes it's tone, sometimes it's the way they put. They play rhythm.

Yeah, it might. That quote, you're talking about might have even had to do with someone's, like, real limitations on an instrument that then that would define their sound is the things that they can't, like, actually can't do versus, like, what you're choosing to do versus not choosing to do, which is that, like, flip side of the.

Same coin thing, how many fingers you play with. It seems like a lot of the greatest musicians aren't technically, like, perfect. The. The imperfections is the thing that makes them unique and where a lot of the creativity comes from. I mean, Hendrix. Hendrix said a lot of those things. The way he put, like, a thumb.

Over the top, well, his hands were huge. There was no other place for the thumb to go. And it was great that he could reach, you know, the. The E string, and that was an advantage.

And he was a lefty playing a right.

Yeah.

And a guitar.

Yeah.

Flipped, I guess.

Yeah.

That's weird. That probably doesn't have much of an effect. Maybe a spiritual one. I don't know.

Actually, flipping a guitar is. Is different. It does, you know, bring out something different in you, because I've done it, like, flipped it, and it's like, oh, wow. Yeah. Really? It's really different. I remember talking to my, like, osteopath about, like, you know, because there's so much weight on this shoulder while I'm playing all the time. And they were saying, like, well, just after shows, just literally just turn it upside down. Do the exact same thing in the opposite way. It'll even out your body. And I was like, it's good advice.

Have you actually tried it? Mm. Okay. All right, I'll write that down. All right. Well, do you know a guy named Davey504?

I've heard of him.

I recently learned of him. He's a YouTuber and a bass player. He's amazing. He combines memes and also just these brilliant bass compositions and says slap, like, a lot. He's big into slapping. He's the one that kind of made me realize this is a thing. Okay. And he also said that you're one of the best, if not the best bassists in the world. There was a bunch of his fans that wrote in and he analyzed. The Jeff Beck thing that we watched at Crossroads is one of the greatest solos ever. Bass solos ever. So shout out to him. What does that make you feel like you're the greatest of all time?

Chocolate cookies.

Chocolate. Is that your favorite?

I like macadamia nut. Like, if you really want to get into it with, like, white chocolate.

Yeah, that's A rare one for people to say is the favorite chocolate chip.

Is just like, easy. You can kind of get them anywhere.

Yeah. Last thing you want to be is easy. This world, you want to be easy. You said that. I love rock and roll quote. I love folk, I love jazz, I love Indian classical music. I really love all kinds of music as long as it's authentic and from the heart. So when you play rock versus jazz, you played all kinds of music. What's the difference technically, musically, spiritually for you?

Well, there's no spiritual difference.

Okay, cross that off the list.

But. Well, musically, yeah, it's kind of like what we're saying earlier. It's like each genre has its language of what makes it that genre. And that would be a good thing to say. It's defined by the do's and don'ts. Because, yeah, it's like I'm trying to think. Basically, I put the song first, and I think of the song as the melody, the lyrics, and then the harmony, and obviously the groove.

So the song goes before the genre. In a sense, each song is like its own thing.

They're both things that are held in my mind. It's like, okay, genre, and then song, which is comprised of those basic, you know, elements. And I tend to kind of prioritize lyric because somebody is trying to express something over music. And so the lyric is very, very important. And so then the choices come from there. It's like, okay, within the genre of X, this is the typical language. And then how do I best serve this, this lyric? And then where else can I pull from that might not be in these two bags that would put a little twist on it? So those are all the kinds of things I might be thinking about. But I don't like twists for the sake of twists either. I like twists because I want to hear something that might be fresh. But when someone does something just to be hip, it's annoying to me. I think you can hear the difference. It's like when people, like, they write in odd time signatures or they write all these riffs just because they can, just because they have the chops to do it, or they know how to play in 11:16 and whatever. But if it's not actually creating a piece of music that's going to move somebody, then why are you doing it? And so I think a lot of the questions I'm asking myself when I'm approaching a song are mainly philosophical and aesthetic.

So you like to stand on the edge of the cliff not for the thrill of it, but because that's where you find something new, potentially.

Yeah. And it's thrilling.

But you're not doing it just for the thrill.

I'm not doing it for the thrill. It just happens to be thrilling.

All right.

Because you can always reel it back in.

Can you, though?

Yeah, you can. No, you can like, do a totally, like, disciplined. Like, I can go into a session and. Okay. My favorite thing about going into a session with. With musicians that I adore is that we don't hear the demo. Because if you hear a demo, you're hearing what the producer or songwriter have already imagined that every instrument is playing. And then it's like, well, I've already heard what you want. Now my mind is. Part of. My mind is focused on what I already know you want and what the destination's gonna be. Why did you bring me in here? I wanna not hear it. I just want you to sit at a piano and sing the song with the. I wanna hear the chords and the lyric. Or sit in an acoustic guitar, play it, and then let's all go in the room. And then take one, I would say 80% of the time, take one has the most gold. And there might be, like, a mistake or two or someone forgot to go to the B section. And you might want to, like, punch that in so that you're hitting the right chord. But all the magic is in that take. And then sometimes it happens where it's like you go. It's like, we're rehearsing and take 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. And then you're, like, thinking about it too much. And then you go and you have a dinner and you come back and the next take one, after dinner is the one. Like, it's usually after there's some sort of a break. But obviously there's exceptions to that rule. Sometimes it's take two and three.

Yeah. You said that this is something that surprised you about recording with Prince is that he would just. So much of it would be take one so quick. It would just move so quickly.

Yeah, well, with that particular album that we made together, it's called welcome to America. He called me up and asked me. He said, I want to make a band with you. I'm, like, really inspired by what you're doing with Jeff Beck. I want to make a trio. Do you like the drum rolls of Jack DeJeanette? Was like, his first question to me. I'm like, well, yeah, who doesn't. Who doesn't like Jack dejeonette? Like, one of the greatest of all time. And he's like, well, you know. Sounds like. Cause we had a discussion about drummies. Sounds like you're kind of particular about drummers. So why don't you find us the drummer and I'll trust you to find the drummer. You can audition some people, send me some recordings and maybe your two favorites. And I'll pick out of the two or something. So I did that, went on a journey, found a couple guys. He picked the one we went in. And he basically just would be like, okay, so the A section is going to go like this. And then the B section. I think we're going to go to G and D. And then the bridge. I might go to B flat, but maybe I'll hold off. And. Okay, let's go. 1, 2, 3, 4. And then we recorded it to tape. There was no pun. He did not want me to punch anything. Like, it was like. And there was one song called Same Page, Different Book. And he, like, talked through it just like he did. And then he had me soloing between each phrase, like little fills. Like, I. I didn't know that that was gonna come up. And he loved that. He loved to have me on the edge of my seat falling off the cliff. That was my first real falling off a cliff moment from somebody else holding me at the edge of the cliff. You know what I mean? Now I just do it on my own. Cause it's so fun and makes sense. It's the best thing for the music.

When you say punch the tape. That when you actually record recorded, like.

If you record to tape and there's like, say like you hit a bum note. Like, to. To punch in means to like, fix that note. Like re record over that one little area and. And punch that note in. He didn't want that. He like. He's like, all my favorite records. Just like, whatever happened, happened. That's that moment in time. Let's make a new moment in time. It's great. Nobody makes records like that anymore. Everyone wants to, like, you know, edit and edit and re record and this and that. And unfortunately, with a lot of music, and I'm not saying all music because there's plenty of great music coming out, but there's the danger of it being flat because every little imperfection is digitally removed.

Well, that's one of the promising things about AI is because it can be so perfect that the thing will actually come back to and value about music is the imperfections that humans can create.

Yeah.

There'll be a greater valuation of imperfections.

Yeah. I mean, you can kind of program Imperfections, too.

Yeah, sure, that's. That's also very sad. But then you get closer and closer to what it means to be human. And maybe there'll be AIs among us. They'll be human, flawed, like the rest of us. Mortal and silly at times.

Another big sigh.

Is it fair to say that you're very melodic on bass? Like you. There's. You make the bass sing more than people normally do.

Is that a compliment?

Yes, I think so.

Thank you.

Moving on to the next question. I mean, as. By way of understanding. It's just there's. There's something about the way you play bass that just kind of pulls you in. The way when you listen to somebody play a guitar, like a guitar solo.

The thing I love about Jeff Beck is that he played the guitar like a singer. And I think that the way that Wayne Shorter played his saxophone, it's like a singer. And I think everyone, every musician aspires to just sound like a singer.

See? Make it sing. Let me ask you about. Just come back to Hendrix, because you said that you had three CDs. Jimi Hendrix, Herbie Hancock, and Rage against the Machine. First of all, great combination. I'm a big Rage fan.

It's so funny because, like, when I listen to some of the music that I create, like my solo music, I'm like. I could see how this is a combination of Herbie Hancock, Rage against the Machine and Jimi Hendrix. I hear the influences. Funny.

Just from your musician perspective, what's interesting to you about what really stands out to you about Hendrix? I just would love to hear a real professional musician's opinion of Hendrix.

I love that he is two voices combined into one voice. So it's like there is his voice on the guitar, there is his singing voice, and there is the combination of the two that make one voice. And of course, the third element is his songwriting. And all of this have this beautiful chemistry and all work geniusly, perfectly together, and there's nothing like it. And, you know, he. He always beat himself up about being a singer. And, like, he didn't like his voice, but it's like my favorite singers are the singers that don't sound like singers.

Bob Dylan.

Bob Dylan.

You like Bob Dylan?

Love Bob Dylan.

You love his voice, too?

I love his voice.

Can you explain that, your love affair with Bob Dylan's voice?

He's expression, he's expressing his lyrics. There's. It's just pure expression. Exactly what he means. I feel everything that he's saying with 100% authenticity. Yeah, that's What I want to hear from a singer. I don't care how many runs you can do. And, like, I want to believe what you're saying.

Leonard Cohen is that.

There'S countless, like, Neil Young. I mean, there's so many musicians. I love Elliot Smith for that reason.

Let me ask you about mentorship. You said teachers and mentors. You had mentors. What's a good mentor for you? Harsh or supportive?

Supportive.

Supportive. You seen Whiplash, the movie? So that guy. Somebody screaming at you, like, kicking you off the cliff.

Not necessary. I feel like anybody that's truly passionate about something that they want to be great at or a master of or this and that, they've already got that person inside their own head. You don't need somebody else to do that for you. I think you need love, acceptance, guidance, support, time, advice, if you ask for it. Just a space. Just a nice open space. All my mentors were just that for me. They didn't tell me to do anything. They. They didn't care, like, because they're not. They don't. Why do they need to be invested in where I'm going? Only I know where I'm going. So for some mentor to come and be like, this is what you need to be doing and practice it, it's like, but why? What if that's not my path? That might be your path. So I'm not really. Again, otherwise, it feels like a sport, like, who can run the fastest race? And it's like, well, okay, well, I get that for that. For sport, maybe it makes sense to have someone a bit more hardcore. But still, I would say athletes have the same mentality. They've got that in them already, too. So I think more of a strategic approach to mentorship works really well. And mainly just having an open space and just being available to someone and.

Kind of show that they see the special in you.

Yeah.

And they give you the room to develop that special. Whatever.

Exactly. Because if you do have that harsh critic inside you, it's like, it is nice to have somebody that isn't, like, your family or someone that's not obligated in any way, that just sees your talent and they're like, yeah, I dig what you're doing. Keep doing it.

Yeah. It's funny that that's not always easy to come by.

Do you have any mentors?

Yeah, I've had a few recently, but for most of my life, people didn't really. You know, I. I'm very much like that, too. Like somebody to pat me on the back. And say like. Like see something in you of value. Yeah, I didn't really have that.

So do you wish you did? Yeah.

Yeah. But maybe the wishing that I did is the thing that made me who I am. Not having it. The longing for that, maybe that's the thing that helped me develop a constant sense of longing, which I think is a way of. Because I have that engine in me. It really allows me to deeply appreciate every single moment, every single. Everything that's given to me. So like just eternal gratitude. So you never know which the. Which are the bad parts and the good parts. So if you remove one thing, it might be. It. The whole thing might collapse. I suppose I'm grateful for the whole thing. That one note you screwed up so many years ago. That might have been essential.

What about. Because you do jiu jitsu?

Yes.

So like, do you.

Are you.

I don't. My dad does. My dad's super into it. I love my dad. He's the ghost. But no, I don't do it. He's a blue belt right now.

Nice, nice. You ever been on the mat with him?

Not yet, but I plan on it should do it. What belt are you?

Black belt.

Sick. Do you want to go on the.

Yeah, right. You got the shit talking part of you just sit down. You just have to do the technique.

But like for that, like for instance, like do you. Do you need a harsh mentor or teacher or.

Yeah, but you, like you said it really beautifully. Like there's a. To me, I agree. There's a difference between sport and art. Yeah, they overlap. There's, you know, for sure. But there's something about sport where like perfection is actually like perfection. Perfection is really the thing you really want to get to. The technical perfection. With art, it feels like technical perfection is. It's almost a way to get lost on the path to wherever. Something unique. So. But yeah, with sport, I definitely am one of the kind of athletes that loves to have like a dictatorial coach. Somebody that helps me really push myself to the limit.

But you are the one that's kind of dictating how hard you're getting pushed in a way, like you're choosing your mentor. Like that whip. Whiplash video is like, he didn't ask.

For that, you know, way he might have.

Well, maybe, maybe subconsciously.

I mean, there is.

It's a movie. So.

Next you're going to tell me they're just actors. I mean, and. But you know. Yeah. How do we choose things? You know, you don't always choose, but you, you kind of maybe subconsciously choose. And some of it, like some of the great Olympic athletes I've interacted with their parents for many years would force them to go to practice until they discovered the beauty of the thing that they were doing. And then they loved it.

Yeah.

So, like, at which point does something that looks like abuse become like a gift? You know, it's weird. It's all very weird. But for you, support and space to discover the thing, the voice, the music.

Within you, that's my personal choice because I'm very familiar with the inner critic, and I can bring her out at any point. I don't need help with that, you know.

Oh, so you do have.

Yeah, she was on overdrive. That's why now I'm. I had to work on that so much.

Yeah. You have a really happy way about you right now.

Thanks.

The very Zen Gasket Bob. Bruce Springsteen.

Yeah, sure.

A lot of songs of his I listen to make me feel this melancholy feeling. It's not just Bruce Springsteen, but Bruce does a lot. What is that about songs that arouse a kind of sad feeling or a longing feeling or a feeling. What is that? What is that about us humans on the receiving end of the music frequencies?

Each frequency does elicit a different kind of emotional response that is real.

You mean like on the physics aspect?

Yeah, yeah. Physical level. So there is that combined with the right kind of lyric and the right kind of melody of the right kind of chord will elicit a very particular kind of emotion. And it is scientific. It can be analyzed. I don't particularly want to analyze it because I don't want to approach things with that in advance. I don't want it to inform where I'm going. I like the feeling to lead me naturally to where I'm writing. But, yeah, there's a real chemical element to that. And then also, like I was saying, like, the lyrics, what it means to you, which poetry is supposed to mean something to everybody, like, different. It's not supposed to mean one thing. Like, you can't analyze and be like, this is what this poet meant.

Yeah.

And like we were talking about with Leonard earlier, it's like the broader you can leave a lyric, the better you can appeal to people in so many different ways. And even to the songwriter. Like, I'll sing some of my songs from five years ago and I'll be like, oh, I didn't even think that it could have meant that, but I guess it does. That's funny. I'll, like, just giggle on stage suddenly because a lyric Will hit me differently from a different new experience or something.

Have you ever cried listening to a song?

Of course. Weep like a baby in a bathtub.

Which who's a regular go to then?

Leonard.

Leonard. Yeah. Hallelujah is a song that consistently makes me feel something.

It's holy. His work is holy. And if you were in his presence, I guess there was a lot to that. To that being.

What advice would you give to young folks on how to have a life they can be proud of?

Just tackle the demons as early as possible. Whether it's through your art or through meditation or through whatever it means, diaries, whatever it is, just walk towards the things that are scary. Because if you don't, they'll just expand. They become bigger. If you avoid. If you avoid the demons, they become bigger.

What does that mean for you today? Are you still missing Jeff?

I'll always miss Jeff, but I don't feel like a piece of me is missing. And same with Leonard. It's that I did give them a piece of myself, and maybe they gave me a piece of them that I hold with me and I cherish, but it doesn't feel like I'm less than or they're less than or anything's less than. Just you learn to appreciate the impermanence of everything in life. Impermanence of everything except for consciousness, I guess you could say, is the only thing that is permanent. So everything else, you learn to appreciate that impermanence because the limit amount of time in this particular body, it's enticing. Kind of gives you a time limit, which is cool. I like that.

So you've come to accept your own.

Yeah. Like, it's cool that I'm like, okay, I got this amount of. Maybe this amount of time, who knows?

But it could end today.

But if I was. Yeah, if I. If I died today, I'd be really happy with my life.

Okay.

It's not like I'm like, oh, I missed out on this and that.

So you really want to make sure that every day could be your last day, and you're happy with that?

I've always lived that way. Yeah. I felt this way since I was in my early 20s. I'd be like, yeah, I could die today. Sure. I don't want to die. I have no reason to die. But if I did, I know that I put my everything, all my effort and all my passion and all my love into whatever I've already done. So if my time's up, then my time's up.

What role does love play in this Whole thing in the human condition.

Well, love is everything. I mean, if you define love, if you're talking about love as in romantic love or paternal or maternal love, or if you're talking about love as in, you know, in an Eastern tradition like Vedanta, for instance, love is consciousness. Love is everything.

That's the only permanent thing.

Yeah. Or if you were to come from a Zen or like a Buddhist perspective, they would say nothingness, like emptiness is versus fullness.

Well, those guys are really obsessed with the whole suffering thing and letting go of it.

Yeah.

Well, I was wondering if you would do me the honor of playing a song.

Doing a suffering song or a suffering song.

I think I would love a suffering song.

Do you want to sound check and make sure I'm not.

Sound check? One, two. Yeah, it sounds really good.

This one, too. All right. Count me off.

Yeah, I don't know how to count somebody off. Where do I start? A nine or three? Two. One.

Yeah, you got it. One, two.

One, two. I call.

Out to the ocean.

My.

Tears fall into the sea for the.

Valley.

That have been broken. Across the dunes of time repeatedly. Like a knight in battered armor. I lay my sword upon the ground. Cause I can keep fighting these same battles. More has been lost than has been found. It's hard, hard to feel things changing after all's been said and done. We spend our lives rearranging.

Everything.

Under the sun. I walk the same road to work each Monday. Every step tears at my heel.

I.

Sleep not to dream but to forget On Sunday Bespoke Just turning with the wheel. It's hard to feel things changing.

After.

All been said and done. We spend our lives rearranging.

Everything.

Under the sun. Reaching for the the sky. Feet buried in the ground. Looking for some way out of the circle. Spinning round my eyes on the horizon Seeking out the light. But don't let me be Forever in the night. Cause it's hard to feel things changing after all's been sad and. And d. We spend our lives rearranging everything under the sun. Under the sun.

You're amazing. That was amazing. Tall. Thank you so much. Tried turning it to 11.

It's quite loud. Can you see it from the headphones? It's like the stoney.

Can you play something?

No. Such a professional.

I should produce your next record.

Please.

Love, don't rescue me. I've got nowhere better. I wanna be. I wanna be out but not beholden. Stand in my ground with one eye open. This fight doesn't quite add up. Love, I think thought you were free but now I'm on the hook for all you've given me? Does it matter what I say or think? Or do you say what you say with the lens you're looking through? This fight keeps me tied to the worst in me? And it's killing me, Killing me.

Love.

I'm losing my voice? You led me to believe I had a choice? But let's pause, retract down close? You could take my side while I take your? This fight keeps me tied to the worst in me? And it's killing me, me killing me.

Love.

Come rescue me? I've got nowhere better I wanna be? This fight keeps me tied to the worst in me? And it's killing me, Killing me, Killing me.

Me.

Killing me?

Well, there's nowhere else I'd rather be right now. Thank you for this. Thank you for the private concert. You're amazing. You really are amazing. And it was a pleasure to meet you and really a pleasure to talk to you today.

Do I get a private concert now? If you're playing chess with yourself, yeah.

We're out of time, so we gotta go. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Tal Wilkenfeld to support this podcast. Please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words from Maya Angelou. Music was my refuge. I could crawl into the spaces between the notes and curl my back to loneliness. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.