Tom Brands: Iowa Wrestling | Lex Fridman Podcast #245

The following is a conversation with Tom Brands, Olympic champion and world champion in freestyle wrestling, three time NCAA wrestling champion at University of Iowa, and one of the greatest coaches in the history of wrestling, leading the University of Iowa Hawkeyes for 15 years, including in 2021, winning the national championships and getting a Coach of the Year award, his third. He's known for his intensity, focus and mental toughness, embodying both as a wrestler and coach the culture and spirit of Iowa wrestling. We recorded this conversation almost exactly three years ago after I attended the University of Iowa versus Iowa State wrestling meet in the historic Carver Hawkeye Arena. Tom graciously invited me to his home where his family, a couple of friends and me spent several hours chatting about wrestling in life. We recorded this brief podcast conversation that evening and I wasn't sure where, how, or whether we'll publish it. But returning to it now three years later, I realized just how meaningful that evening was for me and even though I was nervous, didn't even put on my jacket. It's a moment I would love to share with others. The mix of intensity and heartfelt kindness from Tom and his family made me want to stay in Iowa forever. I think I will return there soon enough because of the amazing people there and because Iowa is still in many ways the heart of the indomitable spirit of American wrestling, a sport I love and to which I am deeply grateful for humbling me early in life and helping me and many others build character through hard work. This is the Lex Friedman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, here's my conversation with Tom Prince. What's the best motivator for you or for your athletes? Hatred of losing or love of winning?

For me personally, it was definitely the hatred of losing. I was not a guy that was about pageantry. I was not a guy that was about the parade. When I wrestled in Atlanta, I rented a three cylinder Geo with my wife, drove home and mowed the lawn because it hadn't been mowed for a month. And I remember one of our neighbors driving by and they were like, they did a double take. Like, well, that's the. I thought he was in Atlanta. Well, I was in Atlanta yesterday. I just sat on the stand, I got a gold medal put around my neck. That's how I was. That doesn't mean that it was the right approach or the wrong approach. It's just what worked for me.

But when you were a kid, you and Terry, you dreamed about winning that Olympic gold.

Yeah, winning. Then there is the lure of winning. But what drives you is that, you know, as you move forward, there's just no reason that you have to settle for anything but being the best. And if it just would get to you to the point where that's not going to happen to me again.

So what? The thing that keeps you up at night is the losses, and that's not going to happen to me again. That's the thought that keeps you up at night.

That's the thought that drives you in your training. That's why you do, you know, nine ropes. When Gable says do three ropes and buddy push ups and you're out of here and you do nine, or you do them until you can't do anymore. And it's a very rare ingredient. The older I get, the more rare.

I find it is the ingredient of loss. Feeding. Feeding that, the drive of hard training.

Maybe that because everybody's so worried about the negative, whatever, and you're putting too much pressure on yourself. So maybe that. But what I meant was, it's when a coach says, okay, finish with four ropes and you know, buddy push ups and four way neck, you know, I would do 12 or 10. That's rare.

It's no longer about what the coach says. It's your own demons that you're trying to exercise out. What's the few losses you've had in your life? Are all of them just melt together or is there something that stands out in your mind?

I'm. I'm guy that remembers my career that well. I know that I am judged on a very small portion of my life. And that's minutes of wrestling matches, you know, a lot of, lot of winning. But there's some losing in there too. And you know, people think they know you because of that, and they think they know you because they see you in a press conference. But you know, to go back to the original question, you know, I don't know how to answer that.

So there's no losses that just that eat at you.

Still, there's opponents that I have learned a great deal from. I mean, my loss to John Smith in 1991 U.S. open was something that I learned a lot about. I learned a lot about positioning. I learned a lot about the importance of parterre. You know, in a certain kind of crazy way, I learned that I could go with the best guy in the world, even though it was 14 to 4. And this is when tech falls were 15 or 12 points. So I didn't get tech fall and I wasn't. That wasn't a badge of honor for me. But I knew I could go with him because it was one point takedowns. I scored four takedowns on him and I learned that I had to move my feet and I learned what it meant to move your feet constantly. And there's no, John Smith is a very, very intense competitor that people know that now. Six time world Olympic champion. And I felt that firsthand. But I did not go in there taking a backseat even though the score was very lopsided.

But you knew you could stand with the best of the world.

I knew that this is what this is about. And you know what, you move your feet and you don't give up. A lace that's so damn tight that it, you're, you can't, you know, feel your calf muscle, you know, and I got to get ready for the consolation side of the bracket because I believe that was in the semis, you know. You know, you just learn from that. And it was, it was better than learning from, you know, a win over a second ranked senior level guy. When you're a junior in college, you know, you're wrestling the best on a stage.

So if you look back, you probably spent tens of thousands of hours on the mat. Spilled sweat, blood, even tears, maybe, maybe a few times. So technically or philosophically, how would you do any of those hours differently? Just looking back at the tens of.

Thousands of hours, I would be more, probably in my older age, I probably would have been more relaxed in my training and probably would have went another cycle if I could do it over again in 96. I really thought that when Gable retired that I would be the next guy in line and I was wrong. And that was immature of me.

In terms of the coach.

In terms of the coach, yes. And I knew that Gable was close. I mean, I didn't know when, but it just so happens, you know, 97 was his record breaking year and then he retired. But I didn't know how close he was, but I knew that he had, you know, he went down with a bad hip injury and, and so, you know, you're just, you're, you're not gonna.

So what is, what, what is a relaxed Tom Brands looks like? You're saying you would, you would have.

Been a little more relaxed, more like where, you know what? I was pretty dang good and I was getting better every day, but maybe do it a little bit different, a little bit smarter. And Terry actually did that going through 2000. He had to do it and he would have been in the funny farm, let alone the physical Farm, whatever you want to say. He'd been mentally and physically beat up, but he had to learn to less is more type approach. And how it came around was you work hard at feeling good, you work hard in your recovery. So even when you're not wrestling hard in that wrestling room and looking for the toughest partner to go, you're still working hard in your recovery. And massage could be that, stretching could be that, things like that, that are.

More fluffy, and that's something you weren't as good at.

Never. Never. There's not a place for it with young people because in my opinion, there's so much development to have happened. I mean, when you need to learn wrestling, you need to be wrestling. And as you get older, your body won't do it anymore. And so to learn wrestling, it's more of a probably a relaxed approach.

So if you had to choose between two athletes who would dominate competition, one who drills 100,000 reps of a specific takedown, specific technique, or one that spends that time live wrestling?

Both. It's the same. And I like to live wrestling. I was always wanting to live wrestle, bring the warm up into the live wrestle. Let's go. But where I got really, really good was a repetition. And I was disciplined enough to know that the things that you hate to do in this sport are the things that make you the very best. And that is a rare ingredient as I've gotten older. And you spend a lot of time communicating that to younger athletes.

So the thing, if you feel yourself hating something, that's probably a thing you should be doing.

Yes. As a matter of fact, I had a strength coach when I was really young. He was just a freaking guy that when we wore white, like, he was almost like a nurse, nurse's clothes. He wore all white from head to toe. And he was in Cheyenne, Wyoming, and his first name was Walt. And he taught Terry and I to hate the bar away from you on that last rep when you're dead. And whether it's a curl, you hate it up, and then you do the negative and you hate it down and you hate that bench up and you hate it. You look at the bar and you hate it away from you.

You.

So, you know, I learned and that I was young. I was young. And I remember being born, my mom's sister lived out there and we were dropped off to stay out there with our cousins. And I was born a little bit, and they always treated us really good. But this was like the, the single most bright spot in a, in a weightlifting like Enlightenment. Even though I lifted weights, but I never knew the psychology behind lifting weights. It's just to look good and so you can flex and look in the mirror. Or is it for performance? And this guy was about performance.

And you said repetition. Do you mean technique?

I'm talking repetition. Technique, technique, technique. Drill, drill, drill, Hit, hit, hit, drive, finish. Hit, hit, hit, drive, finish.

So you believe in that? You believe. I believe in that wholeheartedly so, I.

Mean, I believe that you have to do it on your own. I don't believe in the coach taking you to the promised land.

So in the guys today or in yourself, how often do you see people that grow the belief of doing 10,000, 20,000 reps?

I think it's rare. I think it's very rare, and I think it's especially rare. I mean, you can talk about that as a coach, but it's especially rare to bring a guy to that understanding. But you never stop trying. You're always trying to reach him. I mean, we didn't have a good performance out there tonight, but you know what? You don't stop communicating. And there's a lot of programs out there that put their head down when things aren't going their way, and then as things start going their way, then they rise with the tide. There was no difference in the demeanor of our corner. And we talk about. That's a philosophy. And so you're reaching your guys that way. So go back to your point or your question. You know, do you believe in the. In the 10,000 reps? And. Yes, I do.

And how do you inspire people to do that? So well, you communicate by example, but communication. But I mean, that's a. In my experience, what I've seen, communicating the value of repetition and drilling is a hard thing to communicate.

It's hard, and it's very rare to have somebody that goes in there and will do it on their own.

Do you have young guys that step up and do that?

We do, and it's rare. And the guys that do it on their own and have done it on their own are the guys that are in that lineup and doing well. The other thing is, is that when you talk about getting to that next level, a lot of times it's. You know, what held you back was I did everything the coach asked of me and nothing more.

Right.

I mean, you could be a great guy for a. For an app, for a coach, as an athlete, and you did everything that coach asked, but you did nothing more.

So you're really looking for the guys that go way beyond what the coach.

We don't want guys that are looking at their watch running out of the room when practice is over. We want guys that know what they have to get done. And they might leave early, but they're not looking at their watch. They might be done early, they might be. We might be on a whole different path. And this guy just excuses himself. I'm all about that. We are not. We are not autocrats.

An internal engine in there. Is that something you're born with or is that something you can develop?

I think you are born with it. You develop it also. And I think that there has to be comfort. And I go back to the communication that young people are comfortable enough to communicate that I need to take the day off.

So what do you mean by communication? Just let. Exactly. So letting. Letting athletes be part of their own development.

Communication to me is. Is letting them know what they're. What they need to do to get themselves in contention to be the starting quarterback and then to give them boosts and compliments when they earn them. And I don't have time to waste with. With lies and cheating. And when I say cheating, I'm talking about when they cheat themselves. And so those become very direct conversations. And the conversation starts like this. I don't have time to waste, and neither do you. And so why are we wasting our time? And here's what I mean by that. We're having a conversation about, you know, your accountability. If you look in the mirror and you're accountable, then we are. We aren't taking. Taken the time to go through this. We're already on our way to solving the problem. Problem can't be solved without that understanding.

And that has to do with symptoms that you see in the wrestling room. There's something where the fire is not.

Quite there with mental, emotional, spiritual, physical. Got it. Everything. Everything that you know about, you know, I had a boss, and our athletic director is a great athletic director, and he gives us everything we need to be successful. But I had a boss. His name was Fred Mims. I didn't think anybody could be better than him. And then all of a sudden, this Gene Taylor guy came in and I didn't. And then he was pretty doggone good too. And he actually, you know, was just like Fred and maybe even a little bit more current. And then he ended up taking a job at Kansas State where he's the athletic director now. And. And then this. This lady, Barbara Burke comes in. And I didn't think anybody could be better than Gene Taylor or Fred Mims. And this Barbara Burke, she's better than both of them. And the reason why is because she's a problem solver. She doesn't waste time. She's direct and she's a problem solver. And that's what we need. You need problem solvers.

So on the flip side.