EP 63: Is Your Lack of Self-Awareness Holding You Back?

Welcome to the Exit Engine Podcast, episode 63. Welcome to the Exit Engine Podcast. I am Joe Stapleton. I am joined as always by my partner in crime and in business, Mr. John Kniff. John, how are you?

I am great, Joe. And yourself?

I'm awesome because today I'm very excited. John, today on the Exit Edge podcast, we have a heavy hitter.

Yes, we have someone who has experience in business, politics, leadership. Just a fascinating resume.

Really great. This guy has advised presidents in the White House, CEOs in the boardroom, countless leaders navigating moments of transition. What makes Les so compelling is not just his resume, but the way he approaches leadership with a focus on character, trust, and the ability to bring people together when it matters most. So today, John, what we're gonna talk about, we're gonna talk about Les's journey, the lessons he's learned from advising leaders at the highest levels, how those lessons get applied to founders who wanna grow their business, build real enterprise value, and eventually exit on their own terms. Sound good?

Perfect.

Let's get right to it. Les Sorba, welcome to the Exit Engine Podcast. So great to have you here today.

Great to be with you, Joe and John. Thanks for having me.

You're so, so welcome. Les, you've had such a unique path. You have a kind of a storied career, right? Talk to us a little bit about that journey and your journey kind of through business and how you've gone and got into the leadership advisory.

Yeah, I mean, I didn't know that I would get into the leadership business or in recruiting or coaching. It just kind of fell into place. I was interested in history and politics. My parents were Hungarian refugees in 1956, so they emigrated to Canada. And so I was deeply shaped by their experience and was interested in serving in Washington and had the opportunity to work for President Bush 41 in his White House in presidential personnel. Really, you know, excited about, inspired about working with folks from the private sector to serve in government. That ended in '92, and so the executive search leadership business was sort of a natural transition for me. I married a Houstonian, a 4th-generation Houstonian, so moved to Houston 43 years ago and got into the business. Good.

Awesome. Great town.

Yeah.

Awesome. You talk about the, again, the coaching, the ability to, you know, the search aspect of stuff. Talk to us a little bit about what a CEO search is like, because we've got, we have a lot of people in our ecosystem who are, who either are CEOs themselves, right, of their own businesses, or are potentially looking for that kind of help. What are the, what does a CEO search entail? What is it like? What's the, you know, there's obviously a lot to it, right? I mean, this is the biggest Potentially the biggest hire that anybody could ever make.

Yeah, no question. I mean, and for boards, whether it's a public company or in a private situation, it's the most important decision. But I think the way we approach it, I mean, is to look to be very forward-thinking and to think about what that CEO profile looks like, you know, 3, 5, 10 years down the road, because you don't want to hire a CEO just for the job today, but where, you know, where strategically the business is going. So You know, you begin a process by really getting alignment on the profile. What's the, you know, what's the type of leader you're looking for? And then, of course, you go into the market, right? And if it's an external search and there's no options internally, then you go into the market and you present the story, the narrative of the business. And then you try to match the skill sets and importantly, the right fit in terms of value and culture. And so, you know, these things can take 90 days, they can take, you know, 120, you know, maybe 4, 5, 6 months. It just depends on the situation, but it's absolutely the most important part. I mean, leadership matters. You know, I like to argue with my banking friends and technology friends, you know, what's the most important consideration in a business? Is it strategy? Is it technology? I would argue it's leadership, right? Because you gotta have, you know, you can't have the right strategy or the technology if you don't have the right people and the right leaders. So— I'm biased, obviously, and think, you know, the business that we're in is perhaps the most exciting.

And what have you learned, Les, in doing the searches for CEOs? What's either like a surprising thing you've learned or something that sort of is a theme throughout all those searches, if there is one, with regard to specifically searching for CEOs?

Yeah, I mean, I've made some observations over 30-plus years, which now I've you know, included in, in, in this new book that just released, Aware: The Power of Seeing Yourself Clearly. And what I've, what I've learned, uh, that the best of the best leaders and CEOs, uh, have incredible self-belief without the self-absorption.

Uh-huh.

They have the confidence, but they also have the humility. And if you think about it, that's pretty hard to pull off unless you have a high, heightened awareness of both your strengths, capabilities, superpowers, and your flaws, your weaknesses. Because when you're aware of those things, then you can build the right team to complement you, right? So I do find that that is a common theme over the years, you know, this self-belief without self-absorption. The other thing that I would observe is The best of the best leaders do not view themselves as the completed, finished product. They're always working on stuff. I mean, even Jamie Dimon, you know, who's the iconic, one of the iconic CEOs in our country, he's almost 69 and been in the chair 20 years, is still working on stuff, you know, being more empathetic, maybe cleaning up his language, whatever it is. And I just love that about, you know, leaders who are still transforming and changing.

That's a great point. And balancing those 2 things, I can see that, you know, you're obviously looking for the experience, you're looking for the intelligence, you're looking for like background and culture. But if you have someone that doesn't have the ability to see their own flaws or the ability that it's not just gonna be the one-man show, it's gonna— they're gonna need a team to run this company no matter how big it is. That I can see that being like a can take a long time.

Yeah, I mean, I just think the best entrepreneurs and, you know, business leaders have a pretty good sense of the things they do well and the things they don't do well. I mean, you know, Elon Musk is a controversial guy, but I would consider Elon Musk to be pretty self-aware. He's talked about how he is pathologically optimistic. And that is a good thing when you're building, you know, 6, 7 enterprises and you want to, you know, shoot for the stars and land on Mars. But that strength overused can derail into being hard on people, having unrealistic expectations. But he owns it and he put it out there. And I think that's very healthy.

Yeah. I mean, what he did with Twitter was, or whatever they call it now, X, is frankly amazing. The fact that he got in there and he not decimated, but he changed the culture and he changed the number of people required to To support that app, which is sort of amazing.

And the first thing he did was hire a CEO. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing right there, right? So it's like, again, you can be the driving force, right?

Visionary, right?

Visionary. You can be the one who's got even the subject matter expertise. You can be the deep diver, right? But that doesn't necessarily mean that you're the right one to run the operations of the business on a day-to-day basis?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you gotta again recognize what you do well and what you don't do well and have the humility to bring in the right leadership and the right team to execute your plan. And I mean, I think, you know, the leaders that, you know, micromanage and don't empower and push authority and autonomy down tend to stifle their teams and their leaders and their businesses. And I think they really hurt themselves. So yeah, I think it's all about knowing your blind spots. And it's also knowing your strengths and how to leverage your capabilities. Yeah.

And with regard to like the pressure situations, right, obviously your time in the White House and your time dealing with other CEOs, what do you advise about, you know, the leadership under pressure and how either people handle it well, handle it, don't, you know, what are some stories or what are some examples of how people have handled that well?

I think the ones that handle them well, and by the way, you know, pressure, stress, crisis, it's going to happen. You know, you just got to expect it. If you're, if you're a business owner, an entrepreneur, you never, you never know what's gonna, you know, what's happening around the corner, right? And so you got to be ready. And by the way, the, the skill set of agility, our research shows is the multiplying factor in leadership. So somebody who's agile is going to multiply their impact on their team and their business. But I've found, to your, to your, to your question, John, that the leaders who are in crisis that thrive, the CEOs that thrive or business owners that thrive, have people around them. They're intentional about putting people around them who are contrarians, not sycophants. you know, people who tell them, you know, what they need to hear, not, you know, what they want to hear, right? So you've got to be very intentional about making sure you've got a team or a group of advisors who can speak truth to power, because you don't want to be insulated or in a bubble where you're not getting, you know, all the right information, because you got to make a decision, you know, important decisions in a crisis situation. So I just find that the mark of a great leader is someone who surrounds themselves with Contrarians.

Yeah, I think you bring up the decision-making thing is under pressure. And I think obviously it's, you know, the role the CEO is, those decisions, right, are kind of constant and never kind of ending barrage of decisions every day under high-pressure, high-stakes kind of situations. Some people say that the most important thing that a CEO can do is just make a decision, right?

Yeah.

As opposed to it being, you know, it's not necessarily the right decision, but a decision is actually better than no decision. And And there's very few decisions that can't be undone.

Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, the reason you have a CEO is to make a decision, right? So you don't want to stew on it and overanalyze. You've got to move things forward, to your point, Jo. So yeah, being decisive and being able to execute and delegate authority and empower others is critical. But I just think that the best decision makers Again, surround themselves with really, really good people that complement your skills. And then the best decision makers don't view themselves as being above others, but among them, right? Yeah, it's an important principle.

It's a really important principle because it lends or it goes back to what I learned about Jeff Bezos, right? It's the disagree and commit, right? To your point about you know, self-belief and self-absorption, or the difference between those 2 things. Very often, like, a leader could, if they, if they do take the advice of people, it's like maybe, maybe that the leader, she feels one way, but all of her leadership team feels another way. Well, what, you know, what should she do in that situation? She should probably go with the advice of everyone else, as opposed to what she thinks, right? I mean, if she's getting that advice from everybody, is that right?

Yeah, I mean, you got to guard against groupthink. You know, you've really, really got to work hard to break down the walls of groupthink, which can be very destructive. And I mean, you just— I mean, you can go through history, corporate history, and just see some of the biggest corporate failures, you know, Enron, Lehman Brothers, and so forth. And they all were situations where they had boards or advisors just telling CEO what they wanted to hear and getting really diverse perspectives and pushback and contrarian views. That's why I think Jamie Dimon stands out, right? Because I think he, he has an open-door policy. He's approachable. You know, he doesn't have that CEO bubble that many leaders tend to, tend to have.

Hey, I'm Jo Stapleton.

And I'm Jon Knepf.

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And to have, by the way, you know, as leaders ascend, you know, one of the, one of the dangers is you tend not to hear feedback as much, right? Because, you know, then you become CEO, you know, your jokes are funnier, your stories are more interesting.

Your tower's more ivory.

Yeah.

So you've got to work even harder. It's kind of what they call in psychology the Kruger Dunning effect, you know, the higher you go up, the less aware you are, or you think you're actually more aware, but you're actually less aware. So you've just got to work really, really hard to break that down.

Yeah, it's funny, when I became COO of the company I was working with, my jokes did get funnier, which is kind of strange.

Well, maybe, maybe they actually were funnier, John.

They were, they were. Well, you were taking that class, so that helped. Yeah. But no, I think, look, the fact is that whether it's about sense of humor or anything else, right, it also brings up the point, which is that it's never over in terms of a learning and a growth standpoint either, right? And I think that the best CEOs obviously are also people that don't stop growing.

Yeah, no question. Yeah, they're constantly learning. They have that, they have an intellectual curiosity. They ask great questions. They ask, they don't tell in terms of the way they lead. You know, they walk around the office, they have a walk-around style that You know, where you walk up to an engineer or to a, you know, a financial manager and say, hey, what are you working on today? You know, that curiosity, it builds incredible trust, right? And inspiration if you're that kind of leader, as opposed to just being siloed in an office making decisions.

Right, right.

The—

let's talk a little bit about trust and character. I want to talk a little bit about the book.

Yeah.

And so tell me about the— tell me about the— a little bit about the book. Where did the idea for the book come from? What were you seeing that kind of led you down this path to write Aware?

Yeah, so about, I'd say, beginning with the financial crisis, maybe even before, I started to notice increasing blind spots, lack of self-awareness. I didn't know if it was a real thing until I read Tasha Urich's book called Insight: Why We Are Less Aware Than We Think We Are. That book was written in 2018. 2018, she did a study with Harvard that showed that 95% of people think they're self-aware, but the reality is only 10% to 15% truly are. And I thought, wow, that, that is just such a low number. Can that be true?

Right.

So I asked our team at Hidric— we have a research division at Hidric— to look at our data. And so they looked at 75,000 leadership assessments across industries, across functions. And they found that the number was 13%. So pretty much confirmed, you know, what, what Tasha Yurk's research said. And so I thought, you know, maybe I should write a piece on this. And I did a piece called Too Aware to Fail, which was sort of a takeoff on Too Big to Fail. And I had the, you know, the privilege of interviewing Jamie Dimon, who was taken with this whole idea of self-awareness. And he shared the story with me. One day he was at home taking a business call. I think it was 15 years ago, and he got pretty angry and upset. at one of his colleagues, used some pretty colorful language. And when he, when he ended the call, his middle daughter had overheard him and she started crying and said, Dad, why are you so angry? So that was a pivotal moment for him when he realized he needed to show up with more empathy and sensitivity, you know, with his team, but also his family. So then I thought, wow, is this sort of a common theme? And, and so I wrote that piece and that sort of turned into the book. And, you know, there, there are a lot of reasons why I think you can attribute this low level of self-awareness in our institutions' leadership. And I think I would also argue in our relationships. And I think it has a lot to do with the self-esteem mantra, you know, constant validation. Obviously, the digital culture, right?

Right.

Constant validation. You know, we're, we're always plugged in, but You know, we're online always, but offline from ourselves. We have less time for reflection. So there's lots of reasons for it. But I do think it's a serious issue that cuts across leadership in our relationships.

Yeah.

And is it related?

Do you think it's related less to, like, you know, internal versus external sort of— I don't know if the word's motivation or, or like Instagram culture, but can you talk a little bit about like that, that intrinsic— is it Is it related to, like, someone's intrinsic motivation and that they're seeking validation from the external world? Or give us an example of that or talk about that a little bit.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a cultural thing. Well, I would say it's an organizational issue and a cultural issue. Organizationally, I think we just don't have the kind of feedback cultures in small businesses, medium-sized businesses, large business. You know, that's No. 1. That's organizational. Culturally, clearly something has happened in the last 20, 30 years, right? I mean, you have the self-esteem movement, you know, where validation was important. You were made to feel good about yourself, which increased— which, by the way, we saw an increase in people pleasing. I'm a natural people pleaser, by the way. And, you know, you can't lead if you want to be liked. So I think that had something to do with it. Obviously, in the early 2000s, sociologists, social scientists like Jean Twenge wrote Generation Me and the narcissistic epidemic, you know, that was mainly the millennials. I hate to generalize, but that was kind of part of it. And then that morphs into the social media, uh, phone generation that Jonathan Haidt, you know, wrote about in Anxious Generation, which is— Yeah, I mean, I just think the digital dopamine, uh, is, is a real issue, uh, the distraction. So there's just less time to reflect and And, you know, have solitude or go away on a retreat, you know, to have thinking time, you know. And so I think for all those reasons, that's why we're at low levels of awareness.

Interesting.

Cool.

So funny, because you would have thought that that would— that stuff would have gone the other way. Like, I always thought that, you know, I remember the, you know, again, not to cast aspersions about any particular generation of anything.

We've all—

every generation that comes after ours whatever our generation is, is always looked at like somehow it's not as good, right? I mean, it's just the way that it works. But the— which is obviously not true. But the, the, the, the, the gener— the millennial generation of this, this, this where they were, again, it was about everybody's getting a trophy. Everybody felt good about themselves. They were empowered to say no. They were, I don't want to do this. I wasn't right. It was very difficult to manage that.

Yeah.

Right. From— because we, as Gen X managers, we were like, hey, Uh, this is what we were told to do. This is how we did it. It was almost like, you know, the business has become a— it's a fraternity situation. Well, you had to go through— I had to go through that hazing ritual, whatever, so now you have to go through it too, whether it's right or wrong or not, right?

Yeah.

But the, the, the, the, the, the big— I think the big, the very interesting thing to me is that I would have thought that there would be a higher level of self-awareness now in time than a less one. So why is it that we think that basically that this is all that we are— we have become less self-aware as opposed to more?

Yeah, I mean, I would have thought the same thing, Joe. I mean, we've got technology and tools, you know, to assess leaders, and we have these 360s that you can do to get a real sense of how you're showing up with others. But actually, the opposite has occurred. And I think it's just, you know, the reasons I mentioned before. I just think we live in a time when, I mean, people pleasing is, I think, over 50%. I saw one study that I refer to in the book, 52% or 53% of Americans refer to themselves as people pleasers. And by the way, there's a lot of positives, you know, in people pleasing. But the negative is, you know, you avoid hard conversations, you beat around the bush. We're so busy in our businesses that we don't take time to maybe get feedback. How did I show up in that meeting? And was it good? Was it bad? We just don't have those conversations as much as we should have, which I think would heighten our awareness and we'd all show up better if we did that.

But you also have to be willing to accept that feedback, right? Which is obviously a very difficult thing for certain people to do, right? Especially people who are male. And frankly, of a, you know, older generation.

Yeah, it's a great point. And our research shows that those that can transform the quickest have humility. You know, they want to learn, they want to grow, they're willing to accept the feedback. And then importantly, courage. You've got to have the courage to engage whatever it is. So for me, people pleasing, I've got to make sure that I take advantage of every opportunity and exercise that courage muscle to give, you know, real-time feedback or not to avoid a tough conversation, right? And so that takes work. It's just like working out, you know, it's like physical exercise. You got to exercise that courage muscle. So yeah, I think humility and courage are huge.

Well, I got some good feedback probably a couple months ago. And, and the best, the feedback was, you know, the feedback was related to, hey, it was started with, take this as a gift. I was like, that's a great way to think about it. Because, you know, when you think about feedback, when you're with your manager or you're doing that, you're in the middle of a 360, you can get defensive. Or I'll say for myself, I could get defensive back in the day.

Yeah.

And it's, and it's like, no, no, no. If you change your mindset and you say, no, this is for you, John, right? This is a gift that you're getting. that you would never get in most situations because, because again, most people, like you just said, are people pleasers. They're not going to give you constructive feedback because they're either scared or whatever reason. So the gift is, the gift of feedback is so powerful.

And I think the way you put it, John, is important. Yes, it's a gift, but also the way you present it. Like if you, one of my, one of my tactics is You know, I'll reveal a little bit of a vulnerability on my, you know, myself before I, before I just lay out the feedback for somebody else. And I think they just are more willing and open to be transparent and to take it more constructively, as opposed to just coming with some negative feedback, right? Just, you know, you have to do it with, you know, you know, it's a biblical principle: truth with grace, truth with love, right? You gotta, you gotta think about doing that. Yeah.

Right. Well, it's not just truth. It's not just truth for truth's sake, right? It's true. It's truth. It's got to be paired with love. It's got to be paired with support. It's got to be right. I mean, and you talked about it earlier. It's like this, you know, notion of leadership of, of, uh, of, uh, you know, kind of benevolent, um, you know what, there's a term for it, right? The leadership, uh, um, well, it's leadership service.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's part of that principle as well. And the idea that We're all growing, you know, we're not the finished completed product. Right. And if Jamie Dimon isn't the completed product, then let's learn from that. You know, we're—

yeah.

Well, there was an article recently about Jamie Dimon and where, when he got fired from Citigroup and he moved to Chicago to do Bank One and like the ability for him to move, to move from New York to Chicago was just Like, it's just in finance, like, think about that. You're on Wall Street, you're running a— you're helping to run a huge bank, and all of a sudden you're going to move to this bank in, you know—

And it was a tough job. He was running towards a problem. He could have taken another job that— yeah, which he knew would be better for him in the long run, which is amazing, right? And sometimes I think we avoid the tough assignments when actually the tough assignments make us even better.

Yeah, right. And, and it's again running towards a problem. It's like firefighters, right? They were running in— they run into the buildings and save people, whereas most people are like, I'm out of here, like, see ya, bye. So yeah, interesting.

But it says a lot about his courage too, right? And the fact that he was fired. I mean, that's the point, is to say that he, you know, he was— he didn't shirk away from the next thing. He actually went and took a probably what was a more difficult situation, right?

Yeah.

I mean, that was going into a brand new thing where you didn't know it was going to pay out, whatever. Now, maybe it was the only opportunity, you know, probably not. But, but the reality is that he specifically feel— I feel, I feel like he chose that, like, on purpose. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, the other, the other point that I make in the book, the book is Aware: The Power of Seeing Yourself Clearly. It's not It's one thing to, to not only name your blind spots or issues, it's another thing to dig deep and understand where they come from. And if you think about Jamie Dimon, he was raised by a Greek mother, parents that were incredibly curious intellectually, you know, constantly learning. And then the other thing that he observed that had an impact on them is that both of them would just treat everybody with incredible respect and kindness, regardless of whether they were a taxi, you know, driver or a waiter. And that's, that shows up in terms of his kindness and his empathy.

Right.

So I think, and for me, my people pleasing, I mean, I went back and, you know, I share the story in the book. You know, my parents, you know, I had an amazing childhood, very happy home. But then my parents divorced when I was 16. And then I lost my mom when I was 18 to brain cancer. Those 2 traumatic events really, you know, as I think back on it, made me want to fit in and be liked, right? And so my point is, when you begin to understand yourself more clearly, you can show up better as the best version of yourself with others. And so that's really the thesis of the book.

And how do you— so that point right there about yourself, right, that you just made, that you referenced, How do you help people look back, or is it just this, look back and know, like, learn, learn more about yourself? How do you get, like, counsel people or coach people to learn more about themselves so that they can show up and present themselves in a, in either, in a better way from, in a better leadership position? Or phrase that.

Yeah, no, I think it's a great question. We're so guarded, you know, when I do these interviews and I've, you know, for the book, I've calculated that, you know, over 32 years, I've probably done 10,000 interviews. And, and, you know, I've, I've made mistakes. But I think the interviews that really went well were, was when I asked a leader to tell me their story. Everybody has a story. Like, why, why, why are you wired the way you are? What is your unique gift? Tell me a little, go, let's go back and, and understand. And so some people are guarded and they don't want to go there, but I encourage them to do that because I think if they can understand their background and then can communicate their narrative, whatever their unique gift is to a particular company or leadership role, I just think they come across as more authentic. And anyway, so that's kind of one of the devices I use.

Right. There is a— in the M&A world that we live in, and one of the things that we saw was kind of lacking in it, and we were trying to bring to it a certain amount of humanity.

Yeah.

Right, because obviously business, so much of business is about lack of emotion, right? We're taught to be, right, to be, you know, it's just about the numbers and it's metrics and it's, right, and there's nothing's real until it's in the bank and, you know, all the things that go along with this stuff, right? But at the end of the day, what we all also know to be true is that all businesses are just groups of people, right, moving, trying to move a needle. somewhere, move something forward, or row in the same direction.

Yeah.

So, but so that the, the, it's not the leadership aspect of it, the ability for somebody to be able to, to, um, be able to examine themselves to the point— here's, I think that the fear around, and I think most people have this fear, especially when they're at a, at a, at a higher level, uh, of leadership, is that they are, they are they are, they are being judged. There is a judgment, right? And I think that when you talk about courage and leaders that have the courage to be able to say, look, I'm not here to be liked, but I'm also not here to be like feared and hated. Yeah. Right? And I think that's like a real, like major, like difference, because I think that there are, there are 2 distinct kind of like leadership camps, right? There. And again, there's, there's, I'm sure that there are slices, but the idea is to say that there are people that run by with an iron fist, right?

And that kind of thing.

The, you know, maybe they're a benevolent dictator kind of thing. And then there is the more open, right? I'm, you know, the leaders that you're trying to create, I feel like, right, which are people who are self-aware, have emotional intelligence, right, can see past the numbers to the people and that kind of thing. Is that a fair assessment?

Yeah, I mean, it's the difference between leading, you know, by intimidation or motivation. And that's the sort of You know, that's the distinction I think you're making, Jo. And look, I think— look, I'm a free market capitalist, right? I want to create value and I want to build a business and I want to be successful, and so do your listeners.

That's right.

And that is, by the way, is really, really good, right? We need to be focused on creating value in our businesses and solving problems for our customers. But you also have to be mindful of how you do it. It's not just results, but, you know, how you achieve those results and how you motivate your team and bring your team along. And, and so, yeah, that's why I get back to that whole thing earlier. You know, you got to have the confidence and the humility. You know, you got to be incredibly driven, but also willing to be humble. And I just think that combination is so powerful in business.

And what about— and this is going to be a sort of a question out of left field, but like, what about mistakes? We alluded to mistakes or like being able to be confident enough to change a decision that you've made. Do you have any— have you done any research about that with regard to leadership, to be confident enough to make one decision, but then, hey, down the road or soon after, make a change to that based on either new information or something that they've learned?

Yeah, I mean, I think the, the most authentic leaders are the ones that can acknowledge maybe a strategic misstep, you know, or a tactical decision that didn't go the right way, and to acknowledge it and then go solve the problem. You know, don't dwell on it. Don't dwell on it. Just acknowledge it. I think that builds incredible currency with your team, right? Because we all make mistakes. Own it. Have some accountability. Don't deflect blame. You know, right, right. And then solve the problem, move forward, bring your team with you. I just find that, you know, that's the best way to approach mistakes.

What is your— what's in the book? You kind of, you've got a little bit of a process, right? So when you, when you talk about the— talk to us a little bit about, you know, more brass tacks when the rubber's meeting the road. How are you coaching people through this? You talked a little bit earlier about how it has a starting place, right? It has to be— you have to start with somebody who's willing to examine this stuff, right? But what is the— what's the journey look like, you know, in terms of that you're taking people through as you kind of coach this stuff?

Yeah, I mean, you know, in order to coach somebody, it's just like anything in sports or in entertainment. You got to have a client that's coachable.

Right.

Right? So they got to be willing to step back and learn. So yeah, I mean, I really begin with, you know, sometimes we begin with their 360, you know, right? Whatever data they have, are they really leaning into that? Are they really trying to learn from the comments they've gotten from peers or subordinates, both good and bad, right? By the way, you know, a lot of leaders, when we do this exercise, they tend to dwell on the weaknesses or the flaws. And I really encourage them to think about their strengths, their capabilities. How do you leverage that into a superpower, right?

Right.

And so that's the other side of awareness that's really, really important. And so we walk through that with them. But, but there may be a coaching situation where they're dealing with a difficult personnel issue or a decision they've got to make or a transaction. And I'll just you know, ask them, you know, to tell me about that problem, how they're thinking about it. You know, in coaching, you got to tame the advice monster a little bit. You got to let your coachee come up with their own ways to solve the problem.

Yeah.

So, you know, and so it's, by the way, it's an incredible process. There's a magic in coaching because you have this confidant in this sacred, safe place of trust where they can frankly be open about anything. And they're not getting that right in their day-to-day job. So I love the coaching process. It's relational. It's not transactional. And I think it's hugely transformational. And by the way, I think coaching is changing. It used to be in corporate America, you know, you get a coach and you think something's wrong, like it's remedial.

Right.

Now I think it's being viewed as more of a perk. Like, where's my coach? Right?

Look at, like, the companies that have sprung up, and then not recently, but like, but where therapy, right? And then coaching and therapy are obviously 2 different things, but it's, but they're similar working on people, right? It's creating that safe space where you can talk to people about issues and challenges, but it's viewed as a perk. Like, you know, I have someone in my life that does that for their living. And, you know, when they get into the first discussion that they have with her, it's like, oh, I was so looking forward to this. And it's one of the reasons I took this job. And when she, when she told me that, I was like, wow, that's amazing that, that this was one of the true benefits that was, you know, above a 401, frankly.

Yeah. And by the way, if you, you know, short of coaching, if, if you want to get, if you want to heighten your awareness, I mean, one of the things that we can all do is just give permission to people in your life to, to call BS on you, right, or to, or to really be real with you. I think that's just, that's easy. You know, give permission to your friends, your teammates to say, hey, you know, anytime you want to walk in and just share some feedback, that's a, that's the first step, really, to heighten your awareness is just give permission to others to Share whatever.

Joe, you have my permission right now to do that to me.

Oh, thank you. I would— I, I wonder, right, what, uh, what the home life and how those things change, right, when you're— when they're going through this process too. Because so much of it, right, is like— I mean, I— we can sit here and whatever joke about— I'm sure we could— there's a million jokes we could make about our wives and the way that whatever, and the way that they see us, which I think is, by the way, always more realistic and probably truthful than we— the way that we see ourselves.

Right.

For better or for worse. But how does this stuff, you know, this is not done in a vacuum, right? I mean, there is stuff that when you're thinking about, when you're asking even the people around you for feedback, or are going to say that you're open to it, I mean, obviously it's much as important to be able to get your employees, you know, as it is to get your family and your wife and that kind of stuff, and to be able to, right, there's got to be a transformation that happens across the board, not just at work.

That's such a great point, Joe. And as I've been talking about self-awareness, I've made this point that, you know, you should have your spouse, you know, your wife or husband should be your accountability partner, and you should have that same level of vulnerability and transparency. I mean, I think our marriages, our friendships would improve if we had more conversations around self-awareness. I'll give you an example. The other day, you know, with my wife, I was, you know, she's heard me go on and on about how, you know, the digital culture is the assassin of self-awareness. But even in this book process, I've had to, you know, up my game in terms of my own social media presence because that's what they say you got to do to, you know, raise the visibility of the book.

Yeah.

And so one afternoon or evening, I was going on and on about some amazing post that I made, and I was so impressed with the thousands of impressions and views. And she said, Hey, if you want to be a self-aware guru, you might want to try some of that self-awareness medicine on yourself. So anyways, it's good to have somebody, right, that can kind of call you out and remind you of how you're showing up. And so I just think that's such a good point, Jo. You know, you gotta—

Yeah.

And by the way, I had a, I did a 360 once on a CEO, a client, major private equity firm. And typically, when you, you list your raters, they're your, you know, supervisor, your peers, and your subordinates. So you might have 10 or 12 raters. And he included his wife as part of the 360. So you talk about somebody who's willing to be vulnerable. Yeah, he got feedback from his wife.

Wow.

Yeah, well, my office is sort of near other places where my wife is walking around, and she'll, she'll pop her head in after a call. say, who were you just talking to? And it's like, you got to modulate. You have to, you know, you were being really loud with that person on the phone. Were you talking to— and it's like, oh, thanks. I didn't realize that, you know. So it's so true. It's that they're, they're seeing us all the time and they hear us. They hear the different conversations that we have throughout the day. It's like, were you angry with that person?

Like, oh yeah, I get so much advice. It's, it's, it's annoying. But yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, there's a, there's a, there is a line though, isn't there?

Yeah. Yeah, there is. I mean, well, you got to manage, you got to be balanced in this, in all this as well.

Yeah. What's a trend in the future, Les, right? Like, or what should we be looking out for? What's the, what's on the horizon that leaders should be looking for, paying attention to, that either they're not paying attention to enough or not paying attention to at all?

Well, I mean, obviously, the impact of AI and the digital culture is going to be huge and how we manage that. I think about it all the time. I'm sure you all think about it and your listeners think about it.

Yeah.

There's so many positive things about AI, you know, in terms of efficiency and productivity and learning. It's just amazing, right, what we can do just to learn, um, every single day. It's an incredible tool, but you got to also be aware of the, um, the consequences and the dangers. You know, um, AI can be very flattering. Right? So it could— you're not getting, you know, the real feedback that you need. You're getting, you know, it's like any algorithm, right? It wants you to keep coming back. So you have to recognize that. I do worry about, you know, the AI world where, you know, I mean, for example, will we read anymore? Right? If you can, instead of reading a book, you just type in the title of the book and say, hey, give me a summary, and you get, you know, Right. This incredible summary, and then people just don't read. And reading is such an amazing, self-reflective, engaging, creative process of turning the page. And I think that enhances your awareness. So I do worry about the impact of that. But I think leaders need to be aware of both the positives and obviously the negative consequences of an AI world.

No question. And look, the reality is that AI can be actually pretty decent. if you treat it the right way, right, of helping yourself and giving yourself feedback.

Yeah.

The problem is, again, it's the rails, right, and the guidelines that you're putting up in there to be able to make sure that that happens. And again, I'm sure that there's— I'm sure of it— there are AI agents out there right now that are getting primed to replace therapists and whatever they're doing. And however that— I'm sure that that's happening, right? But, and I have myself even, you know, investigated AI that way. You know, to see how that performs, right? And you can create a feedback loop as easily as you can create an anti-feedback loop, right? It's a matter of instruction and the guardrails that you're putting in there too. But do you see a future where AI helps us become more self-aware as humans?

Yeah, I mean, I think if you ask the right questions, I mean, it's just one tool. It's not the tool, but I mean, there's nothing better than a face-to-face, eyeball-to-eyeball contact with another human being in terms of really how you're showing up. So I'm actually, I'm a little bit more of an optimist as it relates to the AI world. I think that we're going to be able to adjust and learn. I think, you know, we're going to be able to do things, be more intentional about, you know, solitude and things like social media fasts or a social media Sabbath or whatever, you know, things that where you're more intentional to guard against some of the consequences. Taking more retreats. You know, some of our, you know, most celebrated CEOs were famous for taking think weeks or, you know, or putting thinking time on their calendar. And I think we'll hopefully see more of that in light of the new digital world that we live in. Right.

Interesting.

What, Les, what outside of work and that kind of stuff, what are the things, what do you do? Like personally, uh, outside of the work and the whole thing to kind of like, you know, to, to step back, to relax, to, to help your— help yourself grow?

Yeah, I mean, I, I, you know, I have a chapter in the book on, um, uh, return to the soil, which is a Dostoevsky, um, phrase, uh, uh, related to building selfless character. So, I mean, I, I think we all want to hopefully show up with a more selfless kind of character. And the way to do that is to serve. So I love to serve in the community. I'm on several not-for-profits. It's, it's, you know, it's just incredibly rewarding. And I would encourage all leaders, you know, when I interview a leader, I want to know— I don't want to just know about their accomplishments and, you know, their professional life. I want to know what they're contributing to something bigger than themselves, like what they're doing in their community. Are they mentoring others? It just tells me a little bit more about the person. So I do that, Jo. I also, I have a small group of guys. You know, my faith is very important to me. We've been meeting every Wednesday, almost every Wednesday for 27, 28 years, just 10 guys doing life together, right? And so That for me has been transformational. Um, I think we all need that, whether that's, you know, faith-based or not, but for me it is.

Right.

So those are just some of the things that I do.

Right. Interesting. Um, when you look back at the, the, the days, uh, in, in the, in the political world, what are the, the similarities, right? The, the compare and contrast for us that those two, the, the world of, of, of business, the corporate and the, and the kind of political world? There must be some things that are similar, but I imagine there's quite a few differences too.

Yeah, I mean, some of the same principles in leadership are the, you know, they're the same. The idea that, you know, we shouldn't be, have this idea that we're leading above others but among them is important. I do think, and our research does show, that the most self-aware leaders among us, based on our data, tend to be the most objective. They tend to be, you know, the most civil. They tend to be able to make friends with people who they disagree with. I think this is really important right now in the moment that we're living in.

Amen.

I use the model of George Herbert Walker Bush 41, you know, 30 years ago when he was president. I mean, he was famous for making friends with people that he disagreed with. You know, it's what some people call civil. friendships or civic friendships. We need more of that in our country right now. James A. Baker III, you know, the former Secretary of State, told me that, you know, George Bush was the most self-aware person he had ever met in his life. And I just, I just think that, that kind of objectivity and leadership and making friends, being intentional about making friends with people who don't necessarily agree with you is, is, I think, the answer to the very polarized times that we're living in right now. And obviously, with the events of the last week or so, I think it's even more important.

Yeah, no question about it. What is the interesting thing that you said about that was that what, what do you think, what's the definition of self-aware? Like, I, I think that there's a problem out there with people even understanding. Yeah. Right, what's self-awareness?

I'm glad you asked that because that's important. There's internal and external awareness. Internal awareness is your ability, my ability to understand our values, our motives, our aspirations, our flaws, weaknesses, strengths, and capabilities, to really have an understanding of that. That's, that's half the self-awareness equation. The other half is the external.

OK.

How are we showing up, right? Because I think intent is different than impact. We may intend to be showing up a certain way, but it's not landing in the same way with, with people we work with or those that we're engaged with. So true self-awareness is, is both that internal understanding of yourself, but also how you're viewed externally. Do you have a good sense of how you're showing up with others. So that's, that's a high bar. And maybe, maybe that's why the number is so low, right? But it's something we can all aspire to.

Yeah, because that's a lot of work, right? I mean, that's a lot of work to do that internal stuff, and then to understand and to understand how you're showing up and how you're being perceived when you walk into a room or you set or start a meeting. I mean, that takes a lot of, that takes a lot of effort, frankly. That probably is why the number's so low.

Yeah, I mean, I would say, I mean, I talked about people-pleasing. That's an obvious one for me. But, you know, sometimes, you know, I get feedback that I'm easily distracted. I'm not present as much as I should be, you know, with, with, with others. And so that just, I think, helps me heighten my own awareness. And I just need to be more careful not to be distracted and be really engaged with whoever I'm sitting in front of, right?

Which can be, which can be hard to do, right? From a neurological standpoint.

Yeah, no, I know.

So like, some of these things are like, look, what I like about what you, what you're talking about here is the fact that the internal awareness, the ability to know what my strengths and my weaknesses are, right? And to have an honest look at them and to say, hey, look, I know that, you know, whatever, that I can be, you know, you know, that I'm a high-level, like, thinking person and, right, and whatever. And when it comes down to, like, details and doing stuff like that, I start to get a little bit, like, lost there.

Yeah.

Right? I get overwhelmed by the number of things that, that get, that fall down at the end of the, you know, pyramid, right? Up here, you know, and a lot of it is just, it's just neurological, right? It's like, it's not, it's not my cup of tea, so to speak, right? And so, but knowing that and then being able to say, hey, look, I gotta either fix this somehow or find other— some way of dealing with it, right? But the idea is to deal with it, right?

That's the courage part. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

You got to be able to step back and go, okay, I know I do this. It's, it's even okay that you do this, right? It's like, this is who I am and this is hard to change, but at least, at least if I'm raising them and going, oh, I'm doing it again, aren't I? Like, at least that is, right, is something that you are giving back to everybody else in the room.

Yeah, right.

Especially as the CEOs, to get to let them off the hook.

Yeah. And I think, you know, I don't want this to make it sound like this is some, you know, overwhelming challenge or, you know, difficult. You can make it fun. You know, you can be self-deprecating about it. You can make it fun among your friends, your teammates, your spouse. I just think the more conversations we have about it, I think we're going to show up better. as the best version. Yeah, yeah.

And look, when it comes to, guys, when it comes to, you know, your overall value and saleability, okay, just to bring it back for a minute.

Yeah. Okay.

The, the, the, the, the, the, what Les is talking about today, right, is about just leadership in general, whether you're the CEO, whether you're bringing in another CEO, whatever that is, is really irrelevant. The idea here is to be able to, you know, is to be able to have this kind of fundamental self-awareness about what you do well, What you may not, what you can change, what you may not be able to change very easily or whatever, but also, but having the courage to be able to listen to the feedback, right? To be able to, to be able to say, hey, I understand. I see what you're saying to me. Thank you for the gift, John, right? Thank you for giving me this gift of feedback that I can now take, and I will try to do this better. I will try to show up better this way if I can. That's just good for human beings. Right? Whether you're a leader, like everybody's a leader somewhere.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it's good for business, right? I mean, I do a lot of work with private equity firms, and I can tell you they're, they're, they're looking more and more not just at the financial metrics of a business, but also the, the leadership, the internal aspects, culture, team, talent, you know, business continuity. So all of us need to be mindful if we're in a situation where we may, you know, building a business and may want to sell it some point or have some sort of strategic exit, you've got to be investing in those things because buyers are interested in those things big time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it makes it easier for the buyer's life later on, right? I mean, to have those things in place and to have a leader that, you know, can take this. And lots of times, look, if especially if it's a merger situation, you know, the reality is that the CEO you are might be what the entire organization needs.

Yeah.

Right? I mean, so you, you leaving, or the exit that you think you're making, whatever, that, that turns into an, you know, into a longer-term thing where you become the CEO of the new company, right? Like, having this stuff, there's value to these things. And, yeah, uh, and it's not just about the numbers or about how much revenue you make or what your profitability is, right? And, and it's no longer the case. It really never was, but it is, it is less so now because there are, there are There are plenty of people, there's plenty of money out there, right?

Right.

Like, money really isn't an issue in business, right? The issue is actually more about how I— is more about how I think that the value is raised because I've got repeatable processes. I've got things that buyers can take and implement and automatically do, and I'm making money day one. That's what they want, right? And so if I have a leader that is, again, in an exit situation, a leader that is slightly removed and is managing up here, right, and isn't in the weeds every single day about every single thing that's going on, that, that is a better— that's a better company. It's a better buy. If the leader that— if the leadership team is full of self-aware, right, people who understand and have emotional intelligence and are good to the rank and file and are, right, and are good strategic thinkers as a result and take feedback and all that other stuff, man, how badly do I want to have those people as part of my organization?

Yeah, it's so attractive to a potential buyer if you've got a culture that's high-functioning and collaborative and full of integrity and focused on excellence and solving customer problems. I mean, that is critical. Yeah.

With a growth mindset. And it's beneficial that—

and it's so good to hear because we've heard similar things from private equity firms— is yes, the financial aspects are important. Yes, the operational procedures are important, but they're investing not only their, their money, but their time and their— and it's opportunity cost, right? They could invest in 6 other things. They're looking at other factors, other non-financial factors. Like, yes, the financial things are table stakes, but if you have a jerk CEO or someone who doesn't take feedback and can't relate to other people, Why would they invest in them? And let's move on to the next opportunity.

Yeah. Plus, they're just easier to deal with in a transaction. You know, you want to work with—

Everything's easier.

It's exhausting as it is, right? So, it's better to work with a team.

We always think about what it's like from the seller side, you know, but understand that the buyer's going to go, oh.

Yeah.

You know, like, they're doing this, you know, 3 or 4 or 5, 6 times a year, right? And you're— right? And they're just like, ah, I got to deal with this guy. Right, just to get through that, those hoops or whatever. But you're right. I mean, the reality, it makes everything easier. And, and when— and by the way, imagine a negotiation situation or a, right, or, or a due diligence, uh, you know, situation where the— where you've got transparency from this, from the CEO owner, right? And the owner, all the owner wants to do is try to help you make you better.

Yeah.

Right, which is kind of like the perfect situation.

Yeah.

Les, tell us the name of the book one more time. And, you know, you can get it. I'm sure you can get it everywhere. I just ordered it, frankly.

I haven't read it yet.

I just ordered it from Amazon right before this podcast. But tell us the name of the book one more time.

Aware: The Power of Seeing Yourself Clearly, Diary of a Corporate Headhunter, which is sort of the tagline. And yeah, I mean, the thrust of the book, and I use this quote at the beginning, is what you are aware of, you control. What you're unaware of controls you. So it's just this idea that we should spend a little more time thinking about how we're showing up, good and bad, and making an investment into our futures as a leader. And and just you know trying to just be the best leader you can be. And I think it always hinges on on awareness.

That's excellent. Thanks so much for for being here on the Exit Engine podcast with us today. Les Les Les Sorba is with Hydrogen. Heidrick and Struggles. And he is a corporate headhunter, a coach, and he's written a book called Aware: The Power of Seeing Yourself Clearly. And it's all about leadership and about being able to understand being a self-aware leader and how that can translate not only to you being a more successful leader, but also how you can have a more successful, valuable, and sellable business. John, I think that we take our One of the things that I loved about what Les says is I think there's a difference between thinking you're self-aware and actually being self-aware, right? And I think we've seen this, we see this, you know, quite a bit. It's one thing I think in myself, I'm going to reflect back on this conversation with Les, because I think that I feel like I'm a self-aware person, and I put a lot of time and energy into it. But I also think that there are things that I can do a lot better about accepting feedback and about the way that I look at the world, about employees and all that stuff, and being able to make sure that I'm being, I'm showing up as an aware leader too, right?

Yeah. And like, one of the things that sort of, that, I mean, that was a really interesting conversation. And, but the thing for me that really resonated was how you show up versus how you think you show up, right? And I've said, I'm big, I'm a tall guy, so I can't be loud too. Like, I can be, I can, I can, I can't really yell. Like, when I yell, I scare people. So knowing that about myself is, first of all, you shouldn't yell in a corporate environment, but I've done it. But being calm and being perceived as calm has been a challenge throughout my career. So I consciously have worked on that in the last couple of years to say, again, I could walk into a room and if I'm yelling and loud, That's not a good thing for everybody. So that, that's one thing I've taken from this conversation is just emphasize that important point in my mind.

Absolutely. And I love the fact that you talked about it takes courage to be able to do that, right? To be able to look at yourself, right? It takes— that's the kind of thing. And, and I think, again, being able to ask for help.

Yes.

Right. And I think this is a big theme that we, we tend to see on this, on this podcast is that it's, guys, it's— you cannot this stuff alone, right?

There is—

there are things here that are about whether it's your leadership style or about your finances or about your marketing or about your sales or about any, any aspect of this stuff, right? Is in order to be able to make the most valuable and sellable company that you can, right, it's going to take some outside help. It's going to take some other— some people— it's going to take listening to some other people's perspectives. Right. And starting from a leadership standpoint, starting with yourself and being able to look at and examine your own strengths and weaknesses and where you can show up better is a huge piece of the thing. Les Sorba, thank you so much for being on the Exit Engine Podcast. Really, really appreciate it. Where, Les, how can people get in touch with you?

Yeah, thank you. Really enjoyed the conversation. My website is www.leschorba.com. By the way, I have a self-awareness scorecard on the website if anybody wants to take it. It's 30 quick questions. It probably takes 10, 15 minutes. You can kind of get a little bit of a sense of how you're showing up. So, yeah, that's the website. Awesome.

That's great. Les Sorba, thank you so much for being on the Exit Engine Podcast. John, as always, buddy, thank you so much. Another great conversation in the books and can't wait to get this out. And there's going to be hopefully more with Les coming down the pike too. We're gonna, we're gonna find some other ways to be able to work with Les as well. So Les will be around here hopefully, and reach out to him or to us. Guys, we are building the ExitEngine community. This is something that we want everybody to know about. Beginning of next month in October, I'm not sure exactly when this will air, but in October we'll be releasing our— at myexitengine.com will be our new platform. That is basically going to be able to give you all this exit planning content, everything that you need to be able to understand how to change your value and salability, allow you to hook up with great advisory partners, people like Les, people like the other people that you've heard on this podcast, and actually, and also be able to work together, right, to get that support that Les was talking about as well from other founders who are going through the same thing.

So, yeah.

So, what we want you to do, right, John, is we want you to go right now to myexitengine.com. Give us your email address. That's it. All we're going to do is let you know when the community is there and, and ready for you to take a look at and come check out, right?

Exactly correct.

That's it. So let's, uh, please go to myexitengine.com right now. Give us your email address. We'll get in touch with you the next little while about how to be a part of this. No matter when you hear this podcast, you can do that, okay? And we'll always be able to get you on the list and get you information about it. about, uh, about doing that. Thank you so much, guys, for listening to the Exit Engine Podcast. Um, I'm Joe Stapleton. You can reach me at jo@myexitengine.com. That's John Kniff. You can reach him at john@myexitengine.com. We're available anytime. myexitengine.com, guys, check it out. We will, uh, we will see you, uh, later on, and, uh, let's keep making successful exits. All right.