Ep 70 | Sabotage! How You're Instinctively Killing Your Own Exit

Welcome to the Exit Engine Podcast, episode 70. Welcome to the Exit Engine Podcast, where we help founders, owners, and entrepreneurs turn their businesses into assets buyers fight for. If you're looking to grow smarter, reduce risk, and ultimately exit stronger, then this is the show for you. I'm your host, Jo Stapleton, and with me as always is my partner in value and saleability, Mr. John Kniff. Good morning, John.

Good morning, Jo. How are you today?

I'm doing awesome, man. I'm excited today because we've got another cool leadership guy on today.

Yeah, I'm very interested in hearing about, you know, Juergen's background and asking some, some questions about his corporate background as well as his consulting practice.

He's done a lot. He's done a lot of great stuff. He's been in the healthcare field for a long time, had some big jobs there, and he gave it all up. And we're gonna talk about why and what happened there and all that stuff too. But, John, you know, we know that exiting a business isn't just a financial event, right? It's— so much of it is tied to the emotions, and very few founders that we come across are prepared, you know, for this kind of, for this volatile mix of stress, uncertainty and identity loss as they let go of something that they've built right from the ground up.

Yeah, and especially because, again, these people, entrepreneurs, are overwhelmingly busy. They're working all the time. And when they view this oftentimes as, again, they're adding to their work level, and it's really the exact opposite is what we're trying to do. So yeah, it can be stressful, challenging, and we're We're here to provide clarity in that path.

That's it.

And I think the reality is that there's resilience now at this point in time becomes kind of mission critical, right? We got to stay ahead, due diligence, the surprises that come in, the last-minute negotiations, the ambiguity about what's going to happen post-exit, right? All this stuff is going to be going on at the— there's going to be a few months here where everything's going to feel upside down and it's going to feel like a roller coaster and all that stuff. Getting clarity around what you're doing, where you're headed, what your goals and objectives are in this exit, and where you're heading next are going to be really, really important things to be able to, to be able to have, right? Because we're going— you're going— your life is going to be topsy-turvy for a while, and then it, then it's going to change like it hasn't changed in years. You're going to be away from something completely that you've been doing every day. In the same way, probably, maybe for a really long time, right? So we're going to talk to Jurgen. Jurgen's got some advice for us on this stuff. He's been through it himself, and he's got a really great program that talks about clarity, about, and about keeping the stress level down, and, and, you know, and about, you know, figuring out when you're going through these things, how do you kind of keep your center? Okay. But first, John, let's talk about this exciting thing that's happening right now at ExitEngine because— We are, uh, we're all about this ExitEngine ecosystem right now, right? Um, the ExitEngine ecosystem is live now. You can go right now to myexitengine.com. The ExitEngine ecosystem is everything and everyone you'll need to plan and execute a successful exit on your own terms and timeline.

ExitEngine helps founders grow smarter and exit stronger by providing diagnostics, roadmaps, coaching, community, and advisory support that reduce risk, increase value, and make their businesses buyer-ready. It's the first exit planning ecosystem in the world, and you can start for free right now. Just go to www.myexitengine.com.

myexitengine.com right now, guys. We're really excited about this thing. Go there right now, get yourself in there, get set up.

Get a—

you're gonna get a free evaluation first thing, right, John? First thing we're gonna give you is a valuation. We're gonna talk to you about where you are right now from a value and salability standpoint and where you could be, right? And we're gonna talk to you about the levers that we can pull. So, the cool thing is if you get in here, get this valuation, we're gonna give you a roadmap, okay?

Yeah. And it's a valuation. It's also, you know, it's an analysis, right? We're giving you back some real-world things to do because we're asking you questions not just about your finances, but about your revenue concentration as an example, and some other questions that are pertinent to buyers. And are critical that will come up in due diligence. And what we're doing is we are preparing you for that due diligence process that can be onerous— sorry, that will be onerous. And we're preparing you so that it's not as onerous as it could be.

That's exactly right. And hopefully, if you're doing it early enough, you're going to be able to affect some change, right, in a positive way. And that's what we want ExitEngine, the ecosystem, to be all about. So again, The first exit planning ecosystem in the world that you can get started for free right now. Just go to www.myexitengine.com. So, Jon, clarity and resilience are only powerful if it's rooted in self-empowerment. So, the interesting thing here about is that, is that it takes ourselves, right? It takes— we always— your favorite thing is that when you're talking about exit planning, right, is that what got you here, wherever you are in building your business, won't get you to the next level, which is to be able to get rid of the— to be able to not get rid of it, but to transition out of the business on your own terms.

And yeah, it's like muscle memory is what you've got you here, right? It's rinse, repeat. It's getting clients, it's running your business. And this is a completely different skill set. It's like throwing a football with your left hand, right? It's so different. And you're used to throwing it with your— you know, when I say football, I mean, yeah, American football, just to be clear for our guests. You know, you throw it left-handed and it's so weird, or shooting a basket left-handed, it's so weird. But it's a skill set you must, you must master, uh, because it's a— you're selling your business, you're selling your livelihood, you're selling the thing that you've built up over these years, and you want to get the absolute maximum possible, possible, uh, money for it.

That's exactly right. And, and, and again, what we—

what we're—

a lot of people that we talk to, most that we talk to, are kind of unintentionally kind of hurt themselves Right, right at this kind of critical stage.

Right.

What happens is that many founders are unintentionally anchoring the business to their own selves.

Right.

It's their own personality. It's all about them. They are often the, as you always point out, the head chef and chief bottle washer. Right. They are doing all these things themselves. And of course, that what we know to be true is that that makes you less sellable.

Right?

But when a leader can fully embody your self-empowerment, right, you can trust others to lead. You can document processes. You can decentralize key functions. These are all signals that buyers are looking for when they're assessing whether or not they can— that you're worth buying. Right? So empowered leaders also take proactive steps to evolve from operator to architect. So stepping back from the business and becoming less of the doer and more of the overseer. This founder's mindset is going to shape the company's readiness, resilience, and ultimately their value. So today's guest is someone who can tell us all about this. Jurgen Wien really bridges the high-performance worlds between— he's been global pharmaceutical, healthcare, all that stuff. And now this works in this notion of kind of deep inner transformation, right? The idea of being able to say to yourself, At a critical time, like getting ready for an exit, hey, I need to examine myself. I need to get a hold of who I am and make sure that I'm rooting myself in what I want to be true, right? Who am I going to be after this, right? So Jurgen began his career in life sciences, earning a PhD and rising to senior leadership roles in the healthcare industry. He's worked across Europe, the Middle East, North America, and Asia. Eventually settling now in Switzerland and leading diverse teams through major innovation and growth. But even as he scaled the corporate ladder, Jurgen felt drawn to something deeper, the inner work of leadership. So that's pulled— that led to a powerful pivot. In 2021, Jurgen left the corporate world to pursue transformational leadership coaching, integrating breathwork, somatic trauma therapy, and resilience practices into his work with executives and high achievers. Today, he helps leaders master resilience, clarity, and self-empowerment, guiding them through burnout, decision paralysis, and the personal challenges that often lurk beneath the professional performances— sorry, often lurk beneath professional performance. Exiting their business is one of those areas. So this episode is for any founder or executive who's ever asked, is there more than just grinding it out? Or what if my leadership edge came not from hustle, but from wholeness. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the podcast, Mr. Jurgen Wien. Jurgen, great to have you here.

Thank you so much, Joe. Thank you so much, John. Glad to be here.

Awesome. So, Jurgen, let's go back, way back, okay? You're— this is a major shift, right? If you look at your resume, you see a lot of heavy lifting healthcare and pharma stuff and things like that, right? And then suddenly there's a break, right? Um, without getting, you know, tell us what you feel comfortable telling us, but how did you come across this and where, what happened in your life that made you go, wait a second, there's gotta be, I, I gotta look at this differently.

Hmm. Wonderful. So, so good and interesting question.

Right.

And, uh, I guess it's, it's probably a very long story, but just to put it, you know, a little bit shorter is to say that I, I guess you know, what took me into healthcare was about helping people.

Mm-hmm.

Right. And I came into a, a state of my own life where I guess I needed help. Right. Certain parts of my life that were maybe felt that they were like very solid. Suddenly they didn't, they didn't, were not solid anymore. Right. Right. So I started to look for help and through that help I got, I, I found some help, something that really was able to, you know, look at things differently. Because very often, you know, what I'm also talking about is seeing things differently, right? There's always the, there's always the two sides of the coin, right? And, um, what, what, what happened to me is sort of like looking at my life differently. It's where, what has, what, what has been driving me until now? what got me here. You talk a lot about things. I think, you know, the things that, you know, got me here might not get me to the next level, right? And this is where typically we, we need some kind of help. And when I say that we need help, it's not necessarily that I don't have the answers. I'm just not able to find them right now within, right?

Right.

And so I got to this stage that something needed to change in my life.

Right.

And, uh, with some help with coaching, mentoring, I was sort of like finding a new way for myself. And part of that was sort of connecting to, in a new way of helping others. Right.

Mm-hmm.

So being part of a coaching team, just learn, learning a little bit there in a team setting, like a very safe, safe setting. How does it feel to do something like this? Some, something that I haven't really done. at least not consciously, right? And I think that sort of the pivot was also coming from the fact, just pausing, right? Saying that, okay, I need a new direction. I need a pause.

Mm-hmm.

And what that pause meant to me, not only sort of exiting that rut in a way, if you will, But also taking myself somewhere very different, moving out to Bali, lived there for 3 years. And the first half a year there, um, it was, it was really like unlearning, unlearning certain things.

Yep.

Learning to wake up in the morning and learn to feel, not so much think, but feel. What might I want to do today? Rather than thinking, oh, what do I need to do? Right. That was probably one of the hardest things.

Well, yeah, because you could, you know, right, you're, you're, you're, you were probably aligned to a calendar in the past, right? And it's, it's not what you feel like doing, to your point. It's what must I do and what am I compelled to do by my corporate job? Right.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. And so that was, that was sort of the first step, taking a pause and really like, in, in a way, like a little bit like holding myself in that pause. Because again, it was something that I, I, I hadn't done previously. Right. It, it was more like, okay, do, do, do, do, do next thing, next thing, next thing.

I think the, the interesting thing too is that, so right there, right? I, I have a feeling that you've got, there's a bunch of our audience out there right now who's going, ugh, right? And the reason that they're doing that is simply to be able to say, because they are, um, sitting with myself. Like, so the very first thing we're talking about right now, right off the bat, right, is, is a situation in which we're at— what you're— what you did was to say, I had to wake up in the morning and had to teach myself not to think. Not to go and say, here's what I need to do today. Here's the 17 things I got to get done.

Blah blah blah.

Right? I got to do that. But to not do that, but to say, hmm, I wonder where in my body I feel like I what I want to to do today.

Right?

Which is a sounds first of all terrifying. Right? I think to a lot of people.

Yes.

Right?

Right? Right, John. I mean that. That we come across this all the time. It's like, we've all been there. This notion of, I'm busy, I'm busy, I'm busy, I'm busy, right? So much of what we are taught is about productivity and hustle culture. And I've got to do all this stuff, right? But your first thing is to say, stop, pause, right? Because that's where the magic actually starts the second you stop doing things.

Right, absolutely. So, so true. And, and again, you know, when, when you think about so much of what we think is value, you know, our, our work, our value is sort of like how much we produce, how much we do. And as you say, John, so, so correctly, it's super scary when you sort of pause yourself and said, okay, I'm, I'm just gonna hold myself here. Right.

Yeah. And, and the fact that you mentioned, Jurgen, that it took 6 months, right? Like, I think I, I would think that If I was listening to this podcast, I'm like, wow, that sounds like a long time. But, but I have a family story where my father-in-law retired from a corporate job and he had to travel for a period of time, or he, or he not even have to travel, but he traveled for a period of time because he was always on planes so much when he was working that that was the thing that he knew, that we transferred the travel from going to all the places that he used to work going to vacation. But it was one of those things that he wanted to keep consistent because so much was changing in his life that he didn't— he either didn't know how to or didn't want to stop that traveling and felt that he needed to continue to go out there. So he went on all sorts of trips. But it's interesting what people choose to hold on to when they change their, their life and they change their sort of work and what they, what they let go of.

Totally. Yeah, beautiful example.

Yeah.

Keep keeping something consistent. That, that's very often also the key.

Yeah.

What's my— within all this change that is happening right now with me, with my life, what is the one thing that it can be consistent? Right. How do I keep that? Right. And, and very often it is something that we might be able to find within rather than externally.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right. But the—

but so here you are in Bali, right? And you're basically saying you're waking up in the morning going, okay, so let me be with myself. Let me hold myself. Let me, right. Let me, let me just start to— what? Let me, let me start to feel my way through life as opposed to thinking my way, right? Getting— making a new pattern. I'm making a new habit. I'm trying to not think my way through stuff. I'm trying to feel my way through stuff. So continue from there. What is the— what's, what's your experience like as you're, as you're going through this and you're, you're sitting there holding yourself in Bali?

Right, exactly. That's, that's so true. And, and, and, and to be honest, like you, you, you already sort of alluded to this here. It's about feeling. Mm-hmm. So it's actually allowing to feel again, something that I wasn't taught. Most of us, we are not taught, how do I feel? Right?

Yes.

You know, very often we, what, what we wanna do is we wanna push away certain feelings, certain emotions. We feel that, you know, they, they're not serving us. They're sort of hindering me. Well, guess what? That's actually, it's, it's, it's all about learning to feel, accepting. A lot of times you, you hear that, you know, anger is not good.

Right.

Right. You should, you shouldn't feel anger. Well, it's of course in the cult— in our cultures, you know, like you, you can never talk about the anger that you might be feeling, you know, whether you're in corporate, whether you're wherever.

Right.

The fact is that when you think about it, it's an emotion. It's a valid emotion. Why would I have such an emotion if I'm not able to feel it?

Right, right.

I'm tucking it down. Guess what? It's gonna come up someday, one day, right? Right.

Yeah.

So, and, and I'm not talking about like, you know, shouting, shouting to my employees or my, my boss or whatever. I'm more about, you know, being able to notice that, oh, Anger is coming up. What is anger? Anger is typically something that I feel that my boundaries have been breached.

Right.

Okay. And now I understand where it's coming from. I can then take that, feel it maybe somewhere else, or turn that into something positive. But only by feeling I'm able to do that.

Right.

So going back to your question, a lot about that that time there in Bali was about learning to feel and being able to notice what am I feeling? Oh, where it might be coming from. And how can, how can I use this for something that maybe takes me forward rather than backwards? Yep.

So we often talk, we've talked before on this program about, um, you know, about this topic, you know, and, and the reason that we keep kind of coming back to it is because I think that this is one of the most kind of under-realized, you know, parts of— this is so true about humans in general, but especially in business, where we are told it's not about emotion, right? We're told it's about numbers and it's about money and it's about keeping your emotions out of it and making good business decisions, which are not always the same as making good emotional decisions, etc., etc. And so we've, we've literally created generations worth of people who are business owners, who are, right, kind of like, are probably like anti-emotion. Right? How, how does what you do kind of help people bring, come back to where that is? Right? We, the epidemic that we're seeing, right, is a lack of feeling, to your point, right? It's a lack of being able to use our inner knowledge, our inner guidance. Everything that we look at as a business owner is about the analytics. In sports, especially in America, there's a big debate about whether or not the analytic side versus the kind of just the innate kind of like understanding, the experiential side, right? I've been in these situations before, and we've done this, and this is what's worked. Yet this is what the numbers are telling me to do. And they're not often, sometimes they're not the same thing.

Right.

Mm-hmm. Right.

So, right, what— that's kind of like just an example, I think, of something people can relate to. It's like, look, inside you is this knowledge, is this kind of way of knowing, right? Your, your, your intuition, right? Which starts if you have— if you're rooted in yourself, right? The problem is most people aren't rooted in themselves. They're rooted in some kind of external validation, some kind of external learning some kind of, you know, and especially in the business world, we're looking at reports. Well, this report is down, so therefore I've got to change this. In a lot of cases, it's just now this has given me something new to worry about, right? Something to overanalyze, overthink, right? Your teachings are all about feeling overthinking. Talk a little bit about what the difference is and how you get there.

Right, right. That's a That's a good question, of course, and wonderful observation. Yeah. I guess to your point, Jo, it's really about, it's sort of like a little bit like knowing myself, right? And sort of understanding, sometimes it's also understanding a little bit about my past. It's about sort of understanding what's been driving me. Very often when you look at, you know, what we call high achievers, for instance, It's about certain expectations. It's about responsibility. It's about, yeah, it's about external expectations, right?

Yep.

And to that point, I mean, obviously we are all products of our cultures, our parenting, all of that, right? And very often when we start to look at that, you know, more closely, we try— we start to understand, we, we start to see the patterns, the patterns that maybe my parents had, maybe my grandparents had. It's sort of very often there was a similarity. And that doesn't mean that, you know, the world has— of course, the world around us has changed tremendously, you know, from my parents to my grandparents to—

Yeah, absolutely. Right.

But at the same time, you know, if, if you, if you look at it this way, the first 6, 7, 8 years of everyone's life, we are like sponges. Whatever I'm experiencing a little bit becomes like the map for my life.

Yep.

And, and it's, it's ultimately what we, what we are hearing is that we said everything that we experience becomes programmed. in our unconscious. Like, you know, whatever happens to me in those early years, I'm not able to tell whether it's good or bad, whether it's right or wrong. It just is, because I don't even have conscious mind. Now, later on, I might understand that, oh, what happened to me was a kid's—

Right. You know, it was different then. Yeah.

Maybe the pressures that, you know, pressure I was put under, or whatever the story is. Or maybe that didn't really serve me. Right? But still, it, it's already a program in my unconscious, my subconscious, right?

Sure.

And very often, when, when we sort of like, when we start to really look at our lives, and again, it's not so much that, you know, same things have happened all over and over again. It's more that I find myself feeling the same.

Right.

And it's ultimately this familiarity that we're typically unconsciously looking for in our lives, right? So very often when I help, you know, leaders to connect to what they're sensing, we can trace that back, you know, many, many, many years ago, decades ago.

Right.

Right. And very often we, we come to the pivotal point that we, you know, we felt it the first time, right? Whether it was that unclarity that I was going through, that insecurity, whatever it was, that unconsciously I've been then looking for the same— maybe it's the same feeling all the time, and I'm still feeling, even if I If I created all this, right, I, I made it to the CEO, I made it to, you know, having my own company. If I'm looking what's, what might have been driving me, it might be these things, right?

Well, and, and if you're suddenly in a position where you are facing the idea of that going away— That's right, exactly. That is, that's a, that is a, that's a, that's gonna, you're gonna do, there's all kinds of things that are gonna start happening, right? People start sabotaging things. Right? They start, uh, well, I didn't get my stuff together. Oh, I don't have that report. Oh, I start pushing back on— I don't like the attitude of the buyer here, right? Or whatever, who's coming in and looking at, looking through all my stuff. And right, which is what's going to happen during due diligence. And we start to see the people. And John, I don't remember what the numbers are. I can go back and look. We'll try to post them when we find them. But basically, you know, there's a very high percentage of— first of all, 93% of people who have exited their businesses report report some kind of dissatisfaction, major dissatisfaction with the process. Okay? So almost nobody looks back and goes, wow, that was awesome.

Right?

Almost everybody, on the other hand, looks back at it and says, that was one of the most difficult and disappointing experiences of my life. Right? That is just a, you know, no wonder people don't want to exit, right? Like, it's a, It's a scary place to be in so many ways. But what you're saying is that the feeling that you get, the, the, the, the anxiety feeling, the feeling of nervousness, the feeling of, oh my God, I don't want to go there or whatever, or those, the, the, your body is actually telling you, right? How it, you, it's giving you warning signs. It's giving you signals.

Correct. Correct. Yeah.

I can certainly talk a little bit about, yeah, what those kind of, what those signals can be and what's really going on there, you know, inside your body.

Yeah, yeah. It's, I guess very often it's sort of like this drive that, you know, like if you think about it, like if you built your own company, right, you made it successful, you must have, have, haven't driven, you know, drive to actually do it.

Sure.

Right now, when you want to exit, how does it feel? You're losing your identity. It's like you, you, you've been, you've been going hundreds—

It's hard for everybody, right?

Yeah, of course.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. But, but that's an extreme change, right? 100 miles an hour. versus stopping. Right? Right. I, like, I totally get you. You somehow, you need to prepare yourself for that. Right?

Yeah.

And understanding, understanding that, you know, like what's been driving you. And again, when I'm saying this, it's like, it's, it's not that it's right wrong. It's just, you know, this has been driving me, right? But if you, if you're not aware of what has been driving you and you suddenly stop, that's gonna feel terrible.

It's like going, it's like you're going, you know, 50, 60, 80 miles an hour in a thing, right? And you just come to a, you know, and you come to a stop or whatever. There's gonna be some significant change that's gonna happen, right? Probably between you and the windshield or something like that. But the idea is that, you know, that, but that's what, that's literally kind of what your body, your body will actually emulate that. So, I mean, the crazy thing about the way that our brains seem to work, and I've collected a lot of, you know, information about this over the years too, but is that our brains do a really good job of being an alarm system. They're, they're really good at keeping us alive, right? But it looks like that might be the extent of it. So in other words, you know, our human brain in this fast-paced kind of situation that we live in right now is really good at raising up alarm bells. and saying things, hey, there's this stuff, and it's sending you these signals like the anger or the feeling inside or whatever, or the, you know, or whatever. Um, but they're— what they're not good is predicting the future. Um, they're not good at, you know, at, at really knowing what's actually happening, because your reaction to, right, being chased by a saber-toothed tiger, you know, whatever, 1,000 years ago or whatever, is the same feeling you get when that employee of yours or the buyer that you're dealing with in this situation walks into the room for a meeting.

Right?

Like, you're obviously not in physical danger, but the feelings that your nervous system is being triggered the same way.

Right?

And that's sort of, that's going to have an effect on, on everything that's going on in your world.

Definitely. Yeah, definitely.

Yes. And let me ask you a question about, about coaching. Right? So what we were talking about earlier is like the personal the sort of personal roots, roots of some of the leadership challenges that your clients have faced. So like, how do you, how do you work with a client to like, like to understand sort of how some of those personal challenges or the challenges that they had earlier in life sort of come out in either like burnout or inability to make clear decisions and sort of trace it back to something that they do? How do you begin to work with someone to sort of draw that out of them and sort of help them work on that challenge?

John, that's a wonderful question. Absolutely. And so I guess the typical process is like, I mean, just asking questions like we would always do in coaching, right? You ask questions and, you know, with those questions then, you know, once we sort of do that on an intellectual Face first. Yep. Then we go into the body, sort of a little bit like, okay, well, let's see what the body says about all of this, right? And, and, and that's where we start to connect these things, right? You know what my thought is, how does it make me feel?

Hey, I'm Jo Stapleton from the Exit Engine Podcast. Building a business is hard enough, right? Planning your exit shouldn't feel like another lonely, confusing project you have to figure out on your own. That's why we created ExitEngine. ExitEngine isn't just a software tool, it's an entire ecosystem designed to help founders engineer a successful exit. You'll get access to self-assessments, growth roadmaps, and a peer community where you can learn from other founders who've been in your shoes. You'll also find the guidance and expert resources you need to build a business that's actually worth buying, and to do it without burning out. Imagine having the clarity to know what your business is worth, exactly where to focus to improve it, and the confidence to exit on your own terms, whether that's next year or a decade from now. You don't have to do this alone. You don't have to build a business alone. Join us and let's build your exit strategy together. Visit MyExitEngine.com to get started. That's MyExitEngine.com.

Right.

Right. And typically when, when people, if they are able, not sometimes, sometimes people really struggle with feeling, right? Or, or so more than feeling, I would say noticing what's happening in the body.

There you go. Noticing.

Yeah.

But if you are able to notice what's happening in your body, and of course I help them with that, then you start to be able to connect the dots, right? So it's about what my, you know, what my thought is and what does it create in the body, or the vice versa. Often it's actually the other way around as well. Yeah. You just don't recognize that that's the, the body. Ultimately what happens with us, of course, is that whenever we are in a, for instance, a news race, split of a second, there's thing that is called neuroception is happening. Mm-hmm. My nervous system reacts to everything all the time, and this is like happening zillion things at the same time. And it's always scanning for, is this safe or not?

Right.

Right. And whenever, you know, it gives the signal to my body that it's safe, I'm open for connection, right?

Yep.

But if it gives the signal that this is not safe, I withdraw. And again, this is happening all the time with each of us, right? And of course, the basis of this is what have I experienced previously, right?

Right. And it's, and it's safety in— it's, sorry, it's safety in physical terms, it's safety in emotional terms, it's safety in will I be fired if I, if I connect back.

It's all—

it's safety in a sort of a very broad sense, right, Jürgen?

Absolutely. Yeah, exactly.

It's—

yeah, exactly. It's not, it's not, it's not only physical safety, obviously.

Right.

It's like, it is this ultimately, I guess what, Jo, you were, you know, referring to, what happened, what we were facing millions of years ago.

Right. Right.

Would it feel safe if I went, if I changed my route, went through that bush? Probably not, but I'm not gonna do it. Right. So I'm not connecting with that. I withdraw. I, I, I, I go the same way that I always go. Right. But nowadays it's, I guess it, it's It's more about emotional safety. Does it make me feel safe? If I'm, if it makes me feel safe, I'm open. If it doesn't, I'm closing.

Right.

And think about how many times a day that exact thing is actually running through you, right? So this, there's a program that's running in your mind that's been created since you were a child. There's had, you've obviously had potential incidents since then too that affect things and the way that you've learned How to react, how to behave, right? The what you shouldn't do, you know, with that particular person, how you have to change yourself to be this in this situation, right? All these things that are a bit— all this programming that's going on in your mind. So being able to figure out what that is, right? And, and, and like you said, knowing yourself enough to realize that, hey, look, when I— when something like this happens, I get triggered, right?

This—

that's the word that we— that's the kind of common, like, phraseology, right, people use. I'm triggered, right? Oh, they're triggered, right? That means— what does that really mean? It means your nervous system, right? Your nervous system is activated, right? It's gone on high alert. It's told you, hey, um, the story I like to set— this is because I've got a 7-year-old kid with ADHD, and we talk about this stuff, their nervous system, all the time, right? Because it's kind of—

But the—

we have, uh, In our house, we have a weird kind of faulty fire alarm situation. And in the summertime, especially when it's warm outside, we can't trigger it. We've had people look at it, whatever. We can't figure out why every once in a while the fire alarm, the smoke detectors, just— they're all hardwired— just go off. And there's no rhyme or reason. There isn't a way to do it. It's some kind of weird corrosion somewhere on some screw or whatever that we can't locate that just And it's not all the time. In fact, it's, it's, it's a, it's really a rarity, but it happens enough that we go, we use this as the example to say, hey, look, was there actually a fire?

No.

Do we know even as the alarm is going off that there's a fire? Yes, we know there isn't. Do we, are we running around like there's a fire and stuff like that? Yes. Why? Because we have been programmed and conditioned to respond that way. And look for the problem and whatever. But you've got to know that we have a faulty alarm system and that chances are when the alarm goes off, it's probably nothing. And so we're not going to react that way. We're going to teach ourselves a new way of behaving that we are— even when that alarm goes off, we are still safe, right? And so that changes the way that we respond, right?

Mm-hmm.

And so I think what you're saying is that that's what our brains are doing all the time. And with when you're driving down the road, when you are talking to your spouse, when you're talking to your kids, when you're, when you are in a board meeting, right? Every— in your brain is constantly sending these signals and constantly performing this, this, these calculations, right? Trying to determine whether you're safe in that moment or not, right?

Right, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, that's a That's a beautiful example of, you know, like what, what's happening, what, what you were telling Jo, you know, like you, yourself teaching yourself and, you know, the family learning to be with it.

Right.

This is what, what we call, you know, you all have this what we call either window of capacity or window of tolerance. We all have, you know, we, some, some have very limited, some, some broader, but ultimately what you're doing You're broadening the window of capacity. It's, it's not that the alarm doesn't go off anymore, but it's more that, oh, I'm able to be with it. It might be a little bit uncomfortable, but at the end of the day, I, I, I, I learn maybe not to run around anymore.

This is, this is—

Well, it's not about it.

Yeah.

You start stretching out the, the Yeah, just stress.

I'll limit what's happening. Stress kicks in, right? And then, then I'm not anymore able to think what makes sense at this moment. I'm just—

Right.

I'm in sympathetic drive, action, fight or flight. Something has happened, right? What we're doing there so beautifully elaborating on that, you're building the capacity to be with. Oh, right. Of course it goes off. Yes. If there's a fault in the system.

And that's, that's, but hey, and that's directly informing your decision-making ability, right? If you're in fight or flight, your, your brain is not working to capacity.

Definitely not. Yes. Right.

And, and it's, so, so let's talk about the tools a little bit more, like, cuz that, that sounds to me like a tool that you're, that you're frankly, to, to use another analogy, is to arm your your clients with, right? So, so what are the, what are the other tools and techniques that you're teaching your clients to, to deal with those fight-or-flight situations, right? There's a, you know, there's an alarm in their business, or there's a, there's a burning platform, as we used to say in graduate school, that they must deal with, or that they think that they must deal with. How do you teach your clients to sort of, to step back or to assess the situation from a sort of rational standpoint and to use their emotions, but also to, to not just react, uh, to fight or flight?

So yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a very good question, John. Thanks, thanks for that. So the first thing very often is becoming aware, right? I'm, I'm becoming aware that something is happening in my body because it always starts there. And we talked about already earlier, it typically starts In a split of a second, oh, I'm becoming aware of that. I understand what's happening, right? And, and, and sort of like teaching myself little by little with practices to be with it, right? Again, when we, when we think about stress, stress is everywhere. Stress is inevitable, right? I'll never be able to get rid of all the stress.

True.

It's, it's more about I'm able to be with it. I'm still functioning. It might not feel comfortable all the time, but my window of capacity is, is, is broad enough that most of the time, you know, I'm sort of, I'm sort of in, in a mode where I can thrive. I, I'm in a flow. Now, this is not to say that things can happen always in life that just takes, takes me out of, takes me out of into fight or flight, for instance, or collapse. Yeah. Those are the 2 stages when, when, when, when our nervous system is regulated, we can either go over or under, but it's happening less and less because I'm, I'm building this capacity, I'm building these practices, you know, allowing me to most of the time be centered, connected, and grounded.

Yeah.

And that can only happen when I'm feeling my body. If I, if I escape to my mind There's no way to be there. There's always— it always starts by noticing what's happening, what's happening in the body.

Yeah.

If you get that feeling, right, you're sitting there in the boardroom and so-and-so stands up to talk, and as soon as they open their mouths, right, you go, uh, there's some kind of a reaction that happens, right? And again, this is the— this could be a person you love, absolutely admire. It could be a person that you can't stand, whatever that, you know, you know. But the, the idea is that you've— we've all been there, right? You sit there and you just You can feel it happen. Maybe it's because you feel nervous for them or because they're going to say something, you think they're going to say something dumb or they're going to be, right, or they're going to say something that's going to be unsettling, right? Maybe they're going to say something that's true, right? You know, especially if it's someone that's talking about the business or something like that in a board meeting, you might, right, something that's going to affect you. And what you're saying is, the first thing, the first step to all of this is to understand that There are, there are, you, your body is having, again, when your nervous system is activated, you are going to feel that in your body somehow, some way. Lots of people call it anxiety. It's a feeling you might get nervous stomach. You might react in anger, right? You might react with, with being, you know, we talked about fight or flight, flight, right? I'm out of here, right? I can't take this. I'm going, right? But the what you're saying is though is that those are all those react are reactions, right? You're looking to do is to figure out in your body is to practice enough that you respond, right? In the way that is the most positive way for you to respond, as opposed to just react. You say that's fair?

Absolutely. Very fair. Absolutely. Absolutely. Being a being a that's that's exactly. It's being able to be with that feeling, with that emotion, and, and still be able to respond rather than from the instinct.

Yes.

Got it.

Because the emotion, that thing you're feeling, wants to be felt. Like, that's right. The ignoring it is actually the worst thing you can do to it because it actually makes it grow, right? The crazy thing is that if you just acknowledging the fact that you Wow, I feel angry right now. Right? That alone could be a huge— it goes a long way to actually helping ameliorate what you, how, what you're feeling right then.

Yeah, what I think of is, the example I was thinking of when you were talking, Juergen, is like public speaking, right? Like, I know early in my career, like, you'll never get rid of the butterflies from public speaking, or else I'll speak for myself, I will never get rid of the butterflies in public speaking. But you can get them to fly in formation. Right. So like through training and through classes and like someone had that great line that taught me public speaking a while ago. I go, OK, I'm not trying to get rid of this stuff because to your point, Jo, to get rid of it is unrealistic. Right. It's not going to happen. You are going to have reactions to the person that you dislike or the person that you have a problem with. And then when they open their mouth, they say one word, no matter what it is. it will trigger you, right? But, but to be able to react to that and not let them, their words control your actions is, I think, is, is, is, is the way I think about it.

Or, and then, and not to let your own thoughts of what their actions might be, right? In the case of, in the case that you're saying about public speaking right now, nothing's actually happened. There isn't anybody who's gonna sit there and throw, you know, tomatoes at you or boo you, right?

Very rarely do people laugh at you, right? It hasn't happened to me. I've done a lot of public Generally speaking, that's a good thing, right? People are usually distracted. They're not really paying attention to you. They've got their— again, once you realize that they're just people and they have their own reactions and own things going on in their head, they're probably thinking about their, you know, their daughter's soccer game or where they have to be on Thursday, and they're half paying attention to you. So, you know, it's—

you got to realize their nervous system is activated and they're sitting there in the dark going, gosh, I wonder when this thing's going to be over because I'm supposed to go to this cocktail reception and I'm really nervous about the person I'm going to meet. Everybody's sitting there and everybody's nervous system is being—

is being like they've got their own stuff going on. So yeah, exactly.

True, true. Interesting.

I think that the, the, the big learning here, right, is that the, that there are these things going on, that there's— you have a nervous system, that nervous system based on your programming and probably going back way to childhood, you are— your nervous system is, is, is— has learned to react certain ways to certain situations of feeling safe or not, right? And it can be in a small conversation with an employee. It can be a thing that's going on with your wife. It can be, right, whatever it— and by the way, these feelings and things like that can come up sometimes also when you least expect them to, right? Or when you least desire them to. And that's when stuff starts to get dangerous, right? Because now you're talking about your decision as a business leader in this company to be able to make a big decision or to be able to do this thing the right way, right? And I'm going to use all the tools I have, the analytics and the things and the numbers and all the recommendation. But the piece that you're talking about is that there's this other piece that you have to have too, which is that was what have you taught yourself to be able to trust the feeling that's in your body about what has to happen? Because that's ultimately, whether you know it or not, gonna be the way you make the decision.

Right, right. Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, I think, you know, right. Yeah, I think in this context, that's really probably the key, understanding that, you know, like, what I feel about that decision, why I feel the way that I feel. Right? Why, why am I fighting this? Right, right.

That's it. What makes me uncomfortable when I think about exiting my business, as an example? What is the feeling I'm getting? Right? And now, now I know that. Now I can go and I can actually examine what, what is going on there, right? What am I afraid of? What's the thing that's going to be— and of course, I'm not afraid. Okay, there are some very basic, simple, ancient inner brain things, okay? And fear, I hate to tell you guys, is one of the biggest. And it may not be a kind of fear where you're afraid of the dark or that you're afraid of someone hurting you physically or whatever. I'm a big tough— right? You're not that fear. But there's an inner piece of you probably that goes way back to you being 3 or 4 years old Okay, that is something that is, that is, that is creating an unfeel— making your nervous system feel, let's just call it unsafe. Okay, but that fear in that often comes back to these very basic emotions, right? Fear, shame, right? Uh, you know, um, uh, things like that that are just kind of core emotions, right? And the feeling, your reaction of anger Is what? That's just a reaction that's coming, gonna, gonna take the information, the input, match it up with a bunch of information I've had in the past, right? And gonna make me feel unsafe. And so I'm gonna react, right? And now I'm, now I'm yelling at an employee, or like you said before, or whatever. But when it comes to decision-making, talk to us a little more about the decision-making process and what's really going on there, you know, and how people can take better control of the decision-making piece. Uh, of, of the business part.

Mm-hmm. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Again, with, with decision making, you can sort of think it this way. You can either make the decision with your head or you can make it with your body.

Mm-hmm.

And, and it's certainly important to realize that both of them or each of them, or each of them might be lying. Right?

Yeah.

Yes.

Again, as you were talking earlier, you know, what's, what's the primary function even today of our brain? To keep us safe. Right now, what is my body reacting to? Again, what's, what's it's been programmed to react to, right? So again, it's, it's about understanding We can, we can ask questions to our mind. We can ask questions to our body. Right. And whatever it's telling, understanding why it's telling what it's telling.

Right.

Right. That's, that's where we sort of come to say, ah, okay. Okay. And then that's where the—

Yeah.

And your body, and your body will have half the answer. Your mind sometimes half the, half the answer. Right. It's like, it's, It can tell you either similar things or they can be sort of diametrically opposite, right? Like, it can make sense analytically in your head to do this thing, but it can't— but, but your body can be saying the exact opposite, as an example.

That's right, that's right, exactly. Yes, yes, yes. And, and very often when, you know, whether in this context or whatever context, whenever we feel that we are stuck Right? We are stuck with something. For instance, we can't make a decision about, I know whether we should sell, whether we should not.

Sure.

Whatever the question is, it's because there's a conflict between the mind and the body.

Right.

Incongruence.

And exactly. Once we start to harmonize those, then we can move forward again.

Hmm.

Right.

It's such a big thing when in your practice, Jurgen, you, you, you obviously There are a lot of people, and I, again, I, I think the American sensibility probably is also slightly different, but not— I mean, I don't— I, I think it's still a human thing, and I think a lot of it is also— it cuts across gender lines too, right? Because I think that by and large, I think, again, males, especially in America, but I think everywhere, are really, really mostly modeling a certain kind of behavior a certain kind of masculinity, a certain kind of leadership experience, not always the best kind of leadership, frankly, but they're modeling these things. And when they now are putting them into practice from a business standpoint as adults, sometimes older adults, right, I mean, who have been, have had all kinds of other life experience in the meantime, it's got to be very difficult for people sometimes to be able to kind of let their guard down that way, right? So what are the challenges that you see When you're first starting to engage with a new client, a high-performing kind of leader, what are the challenges? What's the resistance that you're coming up against most often?

Yeah, I would say, you know, often the resistance is actually to feel. And whether it's resistance from the, you know, like active resistance or whether it's just a passive in terms of like Oh, I'm not used to this.

Right.

But it, but it is a resistance, right? So some— sometimes what we need to explore is that exactly that. How does it feel when you don't feel? Right?

Right.

So it is sort of that resistance to feel. Mm-hmm.

Because it's the first thing you see.

Probably that, you know, it's, it's typically a guard.

Meaning, meaning, just to expand on that, I mean, they're resisting the, the, the listening to, like, they're not listening to their body, Jurgen, right? Like, are they so, are you saying that they're so used to being in their head and analyzing things that they're not listening to the signals from their body? Yeah.

Yeah. Often it is that it's, it's sort of like, You know what, if you think it this way, whenever we are not going somewhere, we're probably— there's something that is protecting us from going there, right? It's typically, you know, what, what, whatever is happening, everything is a— everything is data, everything is information.

Absolutely.

So if I'm, if I'm not allowing myself to go somewhere, there. There's probably a reason why, why that's happening, right?

Yep.

So there's, there's a part of me that wants to protect something, right? And, and, and once we sort of are able to let go of that guard, as you say it, then we can actually start to look at these things. You know, what's, you know, what, what is it that this part is maybe has been protecting me from? Right. Right. And, and is, is this, and is this, is this still useful? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

Right.

Does it serve me, you know, whatever? And does it serve me in certain situations and not others? Right? I mean, the reality is sometimes, you know, again, we all kind of think we have this kind of sixth sense about stuff or something, whatever. Right? Which might be our intuition, you know, or that kind of thing. But the idea is that there's, there are, You know, there are ways to be able to harness this, to use this, this kind of power, right? I mean, which is really what it is, this kind of self-empowerment.

That's right. That's right.

And, and, Jurgen, how are typically clients finding you, right? Like, what's the impetus for people to reach out to you in, you know, like, at what point do they say, or do they, do they reach out to you, or do you get engaged with a client to to assist them in whatever problem they're having. Just talk about that a little bit. And, you know, you don't have to use client names or anything, but what's, what's a typical example of that, uh, how that, how that sort of flows?

Right, right, exactly. Yeah, I mean, I guess we all have our platforms where we, where we work in, right? And I, and I typically work within LinkedIn, so that's sort of my platform. And, and again, because, because of my background in industry. I have a big network existing before I even started doing this. And, um, so people find me through, through the platform. I also reach out to, you know, new people that I, I, I don't— they're necessarily not my contacts yet.

Right.

But I saw, I guess, in the positions that I, I feel that I, I might be able to help Right. But it is really true, the platform. Right.

What is the— what are the things when people first contact you, regardless of where they come from, what are they generally talking about? What's the impetus for them to reach out to you in the first place?

Right. It's— I guess whenever somebody's approaching a coach or a mentor, it's about, you know, you know, creating some kind of change or wanting to see things differently in their lives right now.

Good.

I guess big majority of my clients, they're sort of like, um, they're in transition, right?

Right.

And, and whether that's a transition that it's, it's about their work or something in their private life, but it's a transition. And very often a little bit more senior people, senior leaders. And often it's about, you know, like they have achieved a lot and, and, uh, and sort of the question. And I think many of us, we at some point in time of our lives, we sort of come to the question like, is there maybe something else?

Right.

What is it? What is it that I haven't really explored yet?

Right.

And so it's a little bit like, we start to put that mirror in front of us already, like, hey, is there something that I haven't explored about myself yet?

Right? We call that— we've been— I've always referred to that as the dark night of the soul.

Right?

Which is this, this, this thing that I think people call it a midlife crisis, right? It kind of gets played up into the thing because the behaviors, the actions that follow often as a result of this unsettling, right? Result in trying to fill that issue, that hole with stuff or changing my, changing my life, uprooting everything that I've had, leaving my wife, right? Things like that, getting the sports car, trying to find the ways that I'm going to feel better about myself, right? But the reality is those aren't, those are never the solution.

Right?

No.

It's the inner self trying to say, is screaming out for attention and saying, hey, you forgot about me, right? I'm in here doing this, trying to figure out who we are, what we've been doing. And you've been off the last 30 years creating this great business. Thanks. But let's get back to who I am and what I really want and what will be my next purpose be? Because maybe this one I brought to as far as I can take it.

Hmm. Beautifully said. And some, sometimes it's really about, you know, the, the inner voice that it's calling there, or, you know, shouting out there. Maybe it's that little boy or little girl.

Right, right.

Yep.

That's 6, that's 6-year-old that still has that need. We, we sort of, we, we sort of went off to do something else. And sometimes it's sort of tuning into that's what I call the little Russian doll inside of me.

Yeah, right, right, the nesting doll.

Yeah, that's still— that I still somehow need to tend to.

Yeah, well, so you mentioned LinkedIn. What— do you have a website, or what is the best, best way for someone to get in touch with you? It's via LinkedIn? It's Jürgen Wien, uh, on LinkedIn?

That's true. Exactly. It's really LinkedIn. That's sort of the platform that I work in. That's where, that's where people typically find me. And then, and then of course, the other part of my clients come from referrals. Right.

Yeah.

Excellent.

Jürgen, you're— the information you're providing today and the whole thing, our ability to be able to first of all recognize that when I started to have that unsettling feeling, right, that that, that, that I'm starting to lose the passion maybe for the business, um, starting to feel maybe some symptoms of burnout, starting to kind of— lots of people say I've lost the plot, right? That's another expression I hear a lot. I'm not really sure what's happening next. I've forgotten who I am. Um, I built this whole business, but I kind of, you know, and we made it successful, but, you know, I'm not really sure what to do next. All these things are things that people are experiencing kind of all the time. And Jurgen Wien is one of the people for sure that when you are experiencing these things that you want to reach out to, have an initial conversation with him. The importance of this, I have lived through this and kind of come out of the other side. Jurgen himself has been there. John's been through this. We've had so many people already on this podcast who can attest to this exact thing, right? This is not woo-woo, you know, you know, hoopy stuff. This is very basic human things that, that as a, as a species, we have ignored for a really long time.

And it will come up during these transitions, right? These transitions that you, that we're talking, that we're dealing with, that we deal with all the time with our clients is these can be, these transitions can be the catalyst for you to reach out to someone like Jurgen because your life is changing. You're getting different signals from your head versus your body, and you want to talk to someone about it who's experienced it and can help you deal with these changes that are coming up in your life.

Exactly right. Well, Jurgen Wien, we hope you are one of those people for sure. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy day and that thing and for being with us on the Exit Engine Podcast. We really appreciate your time. It's been incredible. incredibly informational. Again, you can find, uh, Jurgen Wien. We're gonna do some spelling now, okay, to make sure that we have this right. Um, uh, you're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna find Jurgen Wien at, um, sorry, at, on LinkedIn. Um, you're gonna— Jurgen, why don't you give us— spell your name and all that stuff so we get it exactly right to make sure that people find you.

Wonderful, thank you so much. Yeah, so Jurgen Wien, J-U-R-G-E-N W-I-E-H-N. That's where you can find me on LinkedIn.

Excellent, beautiful thing. We'll have that and stuff in the show notes as well. Jurgen, thank you so much. You're going to hear more from Jurgen, guys, if you stick around, um, at ExitEngine. Okay, um, and as we said at the top of the program, um, you're going to want to take some time out of your day right now, okay? And you're going to do 3 things, okay? The first, you're going to subscribe to this podcast if you haven't already. You're going to make sure that you get this every day, and you're going to share it with somebody you love.

Okay.

Second thing you're gonna do is you're gonna go find us. You're gonna go find the, uh, you're gonna go find myexitengine.com. You're gonna go there, you're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna sign up to get your free evaluation, um, have a conversation with us. We're gonna talk to you about Exit Engine, see if you're a right fit for Exit Engine, and figure out if, if, if this is the kind of thing that can help you. And then when you get inside Exit Engine, you're gonna meet people like Jurgen. You're gonna meet all the people that we've had on the podcast, right, John? Um, you're gonna, you're gonna be able to get access to all this content. You're gonna get access to people. You're gonna get support from other founders who have been through it, who are going through it, right? And are gonna help you not just build a business that you one day will sell, but that wherever you are in your business journey, you're gonna take this information and you're gonna help optimize your value and salability So that you can, if you choose to, exit on your own terms when you're ready.

And you'll get tools.

They get byproduct as a result, just as a result of going through this anyway.

You'll get tools, diagnostics. It's, you know, again, what we say is, and it's so true, is exit planning is just good business planning. So again, go to www.myexitengine.com, um, and you get all these tools and diagnostics.

Exactly right. Thanks again to our guest, Jurgen Wien, today for being on the Exit Engine Podcast. Jon, thank you again for, for being, you know, a supportive partner in the whole thing. I couldn't do this without you. Thank you so much.

Thanks.

Really appreciate it, guys. Again, please subscribe to this podcast, share it with somebody. You can find— if you have a question about exit planning or any of the guests or anything that we talk about on this program, you can reach out to us directly, okay? You can email me directly at jo@exitengine.com. At myexitengine.com. You can hit John at joh@myexitengine.com. You can find us on LinkedIn with those names. You can find us under Exit Engine on LinkedIn. You can find us on YouTube at Exit Engine Community. You can find us on Instagram. You can find us on X. You can find us just about anywhere right now. But come, please, whatever you do, go to myexitengine.com. Please sign up there. Let's get, let's get, let's be able to talk to you about how we can actually take all the things that we talk about in this podcast and help you make your business more value and saleable. And hopefully all boats rise with the tide as you go through these programs with us, as you meet these people, you are going to make a more healthy and sustainable business, even if you never, even if you never sell it, right? Thank you again, Jurgen Wien. John, thank you so much. This is the Exit Engine Podcast. My name is Joe Stapleton. We'll talk to you soon. Talk to you next week. Thanks so much. Have a great day.

Thanks so much, Joe—

John.

Thank you. Bye-bye.