The Exit Engine Podcast Episode 39: Meet Tish Squillaro

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Welcome to the Exit Engine Podcast, episode 39. What we come across a lot is our 2 places where I think this stuff matters. The first is, you know, from an overall mindset change. I got to change how I'm running things and how I'm operating things because I need to get out of the way, right? I'm gonna sell my business. I need to not be the guy who does everything, right?

The control part of the book, right? The control, the control fear.

And arrogance. And arrogance, right? I do think you think, and I have this every day, by the way, um, because they, CEOs who are founders, think their job is to actually be able to do all of it. So yesterday I did a private equity panel, and they asked me, how do you have a hard conversation with a CEO that's a founder that is really not doing a good job anymore because they're really not scaling? They're doing everything. And I said, well, maybe remind them what the CEO's job is. It isn't to do it. It's to manage and lead it. So I think they have to learn what scaling means. Define the word scaling. That's your job description, not be able to do everything, right? So I do believe it's still there. And it's an emotional thing. It could be control because I know how to do it better than you, or arrogance— nobody can do it like me, right? Right.

And, and maybe, maybe even fear too, right? Which is that, what, what if I, you know, if I don't do this, I'm, I'm a failure, or I'll be, I'll be obsolete, they'll replace me.

Which, you know, for every founder, you should be replaced. That means you're successful because you should still own part of your business. Wouldn't you want it to then give back by having, you know, it grow larger than you might be able to grow it? And that's a big emotional transition. In the 25 years I'm working on that world of private equity and portfolio world, I have to say most don't make it to remain the CEO to the very, very end. And if they did, they were typically humbled a lot along the way. Because they had to bring on people that took a lot of their job.

Right.

And other times they actually slowed the process because they made it longer than it needed to be because they stayed in that role.

Well, think of Google, right? The guy who has the yacht outside, they acknowledged that other people were better at being the CEO, whether it's Eric Schmidt or Sundar Pichai. Right. They knew that their role— and that's an extremely successful company. Right. But many companies aren't as successful as Google.

Well, they're not arrogant. They actually built something for the greater good of all, not my image. And, like, if someone came, I'd say, take it. I'd wanna be off and running and doing something else. But most people who are a little insecure about their own self-worth aren't easily going to give up that because it— then they have to figure out, well, what do I do now?

Right.

And I'm like, well, with all that money or even the time, go do something new. I mean, I don't know. You don't even have to leave. Be an advisor. It's never like we're cutting you out.

Right.

But they can't seem to relinquish the power because maybe that's all they have in life. That's where they are the king or queen.

Right.

So, and I think, I think the other area where it really kind of comes up too is in the transition itself, right? Because like you, as you just mentioned, you know, it's like, what do I do now? And I think that what, what we've experienced too is even people who are like, who will, who will, who will, uh, um, what's the word? Um, sabotage the process, unknown, maybe unwittingly, because they basically are just like—

Usually, because I— right, unintentionally they become an obstacle, and then their ending is bad. Doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be a bad ending. They choose that ending, which is the other sad thing. And anyway, so I don't want— we're doing our podcast before our podcast, so I will have nothing to say. No, it's okay.

We're, we're right in it, and it's awesome. And let's just, you know, stop here for a second and introduce So, first of all, welcome to the Exit Engine Podcast. My name is Joe Stapleton. As usual, I am joined by my partner in crime and partner in business, Mr. Jon Kniff. Morning, Jon.

Good morning, Joe.

How are you?

I'm doing excellent, sir. I'm very excited today because we've got another great guest. And we're on this kind of leadership theme the last couple of episodes, and this is a whole other perspective. And what I love about our guest today is her ability. She's actually wrote a book, and it actually takes this kind of like, you know, look inside the brain of entrepreneurs and founders and kind of, you know, looks at why it is, what are the things they need to do to be able to be successful in terms of their own like thought processes, their own psyche. And what we see obviously is a lot, John, is you and I see this all the time. Is we see a lot of people who are, you know, the companies tend to take on the personality of the founders, right?

So true. So true.

And that can be a good thing, it can be a bad thing, it can be ugly, it can be, you know, it has its moments, I'm sure. But one of the things that I think is important for everyone to know from a founder standpoint is that your job is to work yourself out of a job, right? Yeah, like, like, like you've built a job for yourself and it's probably pretty good and maybe you make, you know, a few hundred thousand dollars a year and that's great. But when it comes to selling your company, one of the things that we talk about all the time, obviously, John, let's say it one more time.

Oh yeah, uh, what got you here won't get you there.

That's exactly right. So the idea of that, the way that you've been, the way that you have run this company so far and the way that you have done, uh, you have grown and the things that you have personally done and the impact you have had personally It's all really good stuff, and obviously it's gotten you here. The problem is many people can't change that behavior when it's time to think about planning their exit with the understanding that it can't be all them. They have to be able to have people doing other jobs because otherwise their, their salability goes right in the toilet. So today we're very excited to welcome Tish Scolaro. Tish is the founder and CEO of Kandor Consulting. Tisha spent about 17 years, maybe more than that, advising CEOs, executive teams, boards. And she works with everything from early-stage ventures to the Fortune 500. And she's done a lot. And she's also wrote a book, and the book is really cool. You should check it out. It's available on Amazon. It's called Head Trash: Cleaning Out the Junk That Stands Between You and Success. And I love this title. And basically, she really identifies these, these internal barriers That, that, that she points out these internal barriers that are basically playing with us as entrepreneurs, right? They are there and they are limited beliefs. They are— there's childhood trauma, there's all kinds of stuff going on here, and it obviously has an effect. And so she's got written a book on how to take control of that stuff and then, you know, basically place yourself and prepare for growth and an eventual exit, which is of course the point of this podcast. So without further ado, Tish Scolaro. Tish, so great to have you with us today.

Thank you, Joe. John, I'm excited. This is a great topic. It's something that I'm sure everyone can resonate with because our emotions make our decisions. So let's get the right emotions inside that head.

Love it. What a great way to start. Let's talk right about that now. So let's give you a— give us a little bit of background on you, kind of where you come from, how you got here, which is always just because you are also obviously, you know, a small business yourself. And so talk to me, talk to us a little bit about kind of where you come from and what brought you down this path.

Sure. I'm an entrepreneur, and I didn't know that until someone said that to me. I love starting things that don't have a path yet. So that's why I'm great at problem solving, which is why as a consultant, I come in, listen to the client's challenges and problems, and because I'm unemotional about it, I can jump in and start to be very objective with options for solutions. I live now in Miami. I'll work backwards. I live in Miami. I have 2 kids in college, having a great time now, having the second stage of my life. And I've been doing this for 25 years. I have met a ton of terrific leaders. I have met a ton of great companies. But the consistency is always when you look at a leadership team, it's never the product they're selling or the services they're offering. It's that team, that team dynamics. And so when I started my business 20 years ago, or a little over that. I focus on all parts of leadership and development and team dynamics. But over the last 5 or 6 years, I really have honed in on that first team, that leadership team that's going to take the business either to— is it an IPO? Is it an exit? Are we going to just keep growing? Whatever that might be, that group is responsible for that. And that leader of that group is kind of in unfathomed territory. They don't know what to do. Most times they're the founder or the person who started. So How do you go from there? And that's been a focus of mine. And funny enough, I do have my Head Trash books. And I'm now launching another book because I do think it's a how to build the first team. We talk about all the dysfunctions of a team and how to get your team to work. Sure. But how do you build it? How do you sit there after you've started a company and see traction, you know what's working, and now you've got to bring people on? How do you know what you're looking for? How do you know what's going to work well with you? How do you know they're going to work well together? And that's kind of the key of that whole first team mentality, which is, I bring on smart people, but now I also have to fathom, can they work together? And that's where the rubber meets the road on whether that team can take it to the next level. Can they put aside their own goals, take their egos, put it outside the door, be great at what they do, but be a great collaborator with others?

That, that, that is, that is so key because obviously we see so much of this kind of top-down control, right, is like a big theme here. Because I think that what we see is that there's a control. Control comes out of what? Control comes out of fear, right? Uncertainty, you know, feeling as if no one can do it as good as you, etc., etc. But talk to us a little bit about control and the kinds of control that we see with entrepreneurs. And there's obviously good versions of that and bad versions of that, right? It's not all bad. But how much of a role, how much of Does— of a role does control really kind of play in, in the, in the mind of the entrepreneur?

Yeah, it's also like possessiveness. I mean, if you're building and starting a business, you probably gave up a lot to get that company going, and you had to sacrifice things, and you probably know it the best, right? So it's either 2 founders or one. I've worked with 3 sometimes. There's components that they each know something unique, but together they make the greater good. So when you think about where their head's been To be the person or person that knows how to do it all, it is kind of hard to see someone else do it, right? It's like having your kids make their bed for the first time. It's messy. So you have to run past it and leave it messy till they keep making it better. Well, it's that transition for someone to not jump in and fix it, right? And it's a part—

Right.

—part of control, but it's also a part of thinking of your own self-worth, right? If you've been the hero that knows everything, how do you stop being that and look at others that way? So it's a little bit of a mental switch. It's, it's control plus also feeling value in that you can manage now instead of do. And sometimes people think managing is fluffy and I'm not getting my hands dirty. But leading and managing is that job of that leader to stop doing, train and teach so others can do. And I think it comes from just fear, fear of either I don't know my value anymore, or fear of suppose they don't do it like I do. Could it still work? So I think they're dealing with that.

Yeah, that point about not doing it the way that I would do it must come up all the time, right? That there's, there's, there's, there's a lot of ways to do things and to, to empower people, if you will, to do something, to set an objective and let them do it the way they want must be really tough for a lot of entrepreneurs.

Well, even types of businesses. I'll give you an example. I just worked with a manufacturing plant on helping their leaders transition into a different way of doing certain things because a lot of it was manual. And the newer generation and younger hires and people coming in who have a different way have actually started to automate a lot of the things that were manual.

Sure.

Well, that's a perfect example for any company. When you have new, fresh, smart ideas come through, you have to let them in and listen. Just because we did it this way, but now we could do it at half the time and half the people, You should try that. And that's where it gets difficult for, they're not doing it like me. It is a completely different way, but it is maybe faster, better, quicker, makes more money. I mean, those are the things as a CEO or founder, you have to weigh into the decisions of trying things differently because that's innovation.

Especially when you're bringing younger people in, right? I mean, this notion of being able to look, we, you know, We had to take, in order to even start this company, you know, John and I have been around the block. We're no spring chickens here, right? But the reality is, is that we had to, we had to take a completely different mindset even to begin starting to think about building this business. Because for us, it was a matter of the world had changed. Like, while we were like working and doing stuff and being consultants and things like that, right? The, the internet, the social media, LinkedIn, you know, everything, automation. Tools, everything like that had changed significantly. And the ability to be able to even examine those things and understand that that stuff is there and can be beneficial to you is— it can be a huge leap mentally. You know, it is. It's a matter of saying, hey, you know, you have to kind of like, you know, I like to pride myself on the fact that I kind of think young or whatever, but at the end of the day, I'm set in my ways. And the reality is, is that it was very hard for me to overcome and get out of my own way. It took me years, honestly. Yeah, years to change.

It's about adapting, right? It's about adapting. I can still remember March 14th, 2020, where I looked at my computer and I said, oh my God, I don't think I have a business anymore. And if you didn't reinvent yourself to do what I still do in a different way, I would've not been here today. And I had to work hard at changing, using video. I didn't use video. I traveled everywhere, um, doing my workshops virtually across the world and having different times. I mean, there were so many things, but if I didn't adapt and make myself relevant and available, I wouldn't be here right now. And that is the mindset anyone leading a group of people has to show, because that'll be what they do. And you're— Jo, you mentioned like your company takes on the founder or founders' culture or their values or their way. And if you are in that role model seat, you have to really be thinking about others first. Be adaptable. Think about other ways that can get things done. Welcome in smart people smarter than you. Sometimes the biggest gap I see is people don't hire the right talent because they don't want them smarter than them. And so now you're stifling our growth just by hiring B players because you think they're smarter than you. And so there's a lot of ways that as a team, especially if you're thinking of selling, Right, or doing something with your business that's going to have it become looked at by others, you've got to think about that picture you're painting of that team.

Right.

And the only way you're going to have the right renouveau is if you build it the way you want it to be done. And I think that takes your doing as the leader to be able to be transparent with how you do stuff in a way that's going to help the company grow. And for some, they have to get help with that. That's like the kind of coaching I do. That's like kind of where it fits in is Who do they go to to be vulnerable before they go to their teams? It's not that easy to go to your teams and show that. You really have to come in ready because they expect you to be ready.

Well, and how do you put those, those people together? You referenced earlier that you're working with a lot of teams, and your next book is going to be about that, that first team. With putting different personalities together with, like, you know, you want to hire all A-players, but if you put all A-players with that type of You know, A personality, if you were a Type A personality, how do you fit those people together to be an effective and collaborative team?

It starts with knowing yourself. So if you're not self-aware of your blind spots or the things that you are good at, when most times we know what we're good at, it's really the blind spots, to be honest. But if you don't know those, you're probably not going to hire people that fill that gap. You're going to hire more like you. Which means you're gonna be a little lopsided from a decision-making team because everyone's gonna do things like you do. So the first thing is be self-aware and understand where your blind spots are, cuz that's some of the people you need to think about as your first few hires.

Okay.

Sometimes, you know, the founder is very product-driven or tech-driven, so they need someone who's outwardly facing and maybe very good at building relationships. So maybe your first hire's gonna be someone that, that's got that sort of behavioral style and skill. And it's a 2-component. You know, A-type players are skill first, right? Let's think about the skills that make them an A-type. That's experience, the ability to have proved they've done it, you know, before, even though it might just be something they've done, but actual the skill to do it. And then it's their behaviors. And so to me, I mean, obviously, I try to think skill-wise, everyone has that when I'm meeting them.

Yeah.

It's how do we work together behaviorally? And so that's where knowing more about yourself first as the leader to put people around the table. And as you're bringing people on, understand what their behaviors are so that you could start to resonate a plan, or what I'd like to call the, the doctrine of how this team has to operate. You're going to do that because you're going to know who all those players are. And you're going to have to help them play nice in the sandbox.

Sure.

Because I may give you KPIs for your team, but in my leadership room, I expect us to be doing the KPI for the company. Those are 2 different ways of looking at solving problems and building success. And not everybody makes it from the transition of being a function leader to becoming an executive. And that I've seen a lot too.

So what, what is it that you, what, what are the kind of the, the, the key points that you provide when you're, when you talk about people who are transitioning? And, and, and like you said before, you know, you can be a founder that doesn't automatically make you a CEO, right? I mean, There's a big learning curve inside there. I personally can attest to going through this myself and deciding to not, you know, after some time, to not be the CEO because I felt as if maybe, you know, and again, this is fear. This is stuff I'm looking back at. This is not this company. This is a previous, you know, thing, realizing that maybe I felt like I was out of my depth from a, from a management standpoint.

Mm-hmm.

Or frankly, maybe was I— I don't know, maybe there was something else going on mentally that was preventing me from kind of taking that step. But it is a decision that needs to be made. And we looked at, you know, big companies. I mean, John, we were talking about Google before. And, you know, and this is obviously a very large example. But I mean, the idea of the, you know, of the, you know, the founders not the CEO anymore, like those are— there are levels. And obviously it's a giant public company. So there are many levels removed from, you know, from the mid-market. But in general, how do you deal with that transition? And what is the, you know, what are the kind of the common things that you see in terms of making that, you know, how do you get people to take that step?

I think the first step is defining what the CEO role is, because I think there's 2 roles for CEO, right? You could be a very outwardly facing ambassador of the business because you know better how to talk about it and you have charisma to actually get people to want to listen to you. That's a type of CEO. So they usually get along and work well with the sales side of the business. Right? Yeah. They're not the sales leader, but they are positioning themselves there. And then there's more of the, the, the more product or the service that you're offering, the knowledge base on whatever that is. And that's usually more an internal person, much better operation and scale and structure. First, define what the CEO role is and then decide, are you that person? Because that's the first thing I do is, okay, let's define What the CEO of this company is supposed to be. And then do you do that well? And if you don't do that well, that doesn't mean you have to leave. And everyone thinks it's very black or white. That means maybe you take on a different role, and we can bring on someone who does that role so that you can shine and be successful for the business and what you do do well.

Mhmm.

So that's why it starts basic. What's that role? Once you know you're not that person, that transition is thinking around the table. Did I hire anyone? already that is able to do that, and then we can make a smooth transition to someone already familiar with the business. If I don't have that someone, then I need to think hard and long of what that person should look like. And that's again where I step in. Sometimes I'm thinking long and hard. Once we've decided you're not it, what does that person look like? And a lot of it is going to depend on whether everyone else around the table is capable to stay.

Right.

Because then we're going to hire someone that's going to elevate that team that we have. If we know the whole team is problematic, we have to think about what, where are the best paths to start, which hires are gonna be the most important to get started to make that transition. And again, I like using a behavioral profile to register with people data as they make those sorts of decisions. So I use the DiSC. Yes. A lot of people know that one they're familiar with. There's Myers-Briggs, there's the Predictive Index, there's StrengthsFinder. There's just so many. They all kind of do the same thing. It's the language they use that people pick their choices from. I like DiSC. It's simple. I need it to be simple. It's straightforward. And it's never negative. Because if I'm trying to get someone to look at doing something differently, if this thing is criticizing them or making them feel like they have a problem, I'm not getting anywhere.

Right.

And I also use DiSC for teams. Like, the others don't translate as easily to teams. But when I'm building out the leadership team for someone with them, I show them the dynamic of what they currently have, and maybe it helps us guide where do you want to go, because we are maybe not with a lot of drivers on the team. We have a lot of thinkers.

Right.

Okay. We do a lot of internal work, but we don't get out the door. So no one knows about us because only we know about us. So I think we need to get someone who can be on that, that kind of dynamic. Or gosh, we're always out. We're always selling. We're always talking about ourselves, but our stuff's not done. Our product's not even finished. Our service is not even tested. So what are we doing? So you kind of learn a lot. And for me, DiSC has been a very easy way to translate it and let someone else run with it because I don't like to stick around forever. You've got to do this yourself.

It's a really good point. And it is all positive. Like the, the MBTI is interesting for individuals to find out sort of where they are in the, like how they operate best and where they prefer to do things. But the DiSC does have, it's positive and it's team-oriented to say, oh, we need, might need more of this. More of that, less of this, less of that.

And that's how I built my program called Building Team Chemistry. I try to keep it light, but that's what we're doing. We're looking at the components of a, of a diverse group that needs to be one. And no one's changing, right? I mean, I'm not gonna be able, I'm not that good to go in and change someone, but I do get people to rethink their approach. And that's behavior. If you can rethink your approach for situations, well, now you're just managing situations. And those you may change how you approach. But I don't ask John to become something he's not, or Joe, you've got to be this for us because— but you know what? Leaders do that. They put people in the wrong seats and they know exactly what's expected of them. And that's nothing like that person. So when I'm evaluating, who do you have around your table? I go, are you sure that's their DNA? Because you want them as a hard-charging, risk-comfortable person. And you've got someone in there who's actually very uncomfortable with change. So how is that going to work?

Yeah. But I guess you got a way, though, too. Sometimes you want to put people in roles, like, to, not to test them, but to stretch them, right? To, you know, you don't want to put the finance person in charge of innovation or, but, but there are sometimes positions, places where you want to put someone in a position to, to grow or learn skills or—

But with their strengths.

Yeah.

But in their strengths, right? Because what this tells you is that you've got tendencies that you're really comfortable using, and then you have some that are stretch. So the stretch are the things you flex to, but I don't know if you're going to build them to be ever your strength. So if you know you've got something that someone's got to do that's the polar opposite of what they're really comfortable with, yeah, they'll do it short-term. But long-term, it's going to either wear on them or everyone else watching them fail at it.

So good point.

Probably not the kind of stretch we want, but I'm a big believer in developing people to take that next level, but in the thing they're good at. Sure. Not give them things they're not good at. It's like, yeah, you could do this, which is a lot of times how they give out roles.

Right. Yeah, no, absolutely. It's, you're right. It's based on, you know, there's, there's, there's an idea that people have internally about what, what a promotion is and what the reward is for whatever's been done. And sometimes the promotion is like you're putting someone into completely into the wrong place. But it's a promotion in your mind because it's got more money or something else attached to it. But I mean, putting the right people in the right places are just, it's just everything.

And in my experience, it goes the other way, right? It's like the company has a problem or the leader has a problem. And they look like, oh, let's give this person an opportunity. And it also solves a problem very conveniently, right? It's like, oh, you know, which is not the right way to put people into those positions. As Tish said, it's like, look, don't put someone into, into a position where they're not going to be comfortable. And not gonna thrive long-term, or it's gonna cause detrimental problems for the whole team and the whole company.

Well, that's where the team falls apart because they lose trust in each other and not as people. They don't think anyone's gonna backstab or be a narcissist. But if I know you across the table are not good at that, I've watched you not get it done and it really isn't your comfort zone. Now I have to sit there and not say anything because you put them in that role. Right. This is when you start to have discord and lack of trust. So now from that, you get you don't have accountability, and everyone pretends that everybody's happy and okay, but things aren't getting done. So that's the first thing I look at is the trust level. Is there enough of the right people in the right seat so that we can have that difficult conversation? And it's not because you're not capable. Because I always ask the leader, is everybody capable on your team to do what you think they should be doing? Because then we start on a nice level of these are just muscles I have to get people comfortable to use. Not teach them, right? If we have to teach them how to do their job, I question whether you've got the right person in that seat because nobody's going to spend the time to teach them this.

Right. No, that's a, that's a big thing, is that the time and stuff that takes. I, I've always been, um, whenever, you know, I— most of the companies that I've worked for have been relatively small. I've then worked, you know, as a consultant inside larger companies, right? And so I don't have the real experience of having like you know, 60 people in a company or whatever where you've got to get that, except that I— we used to partake in our clients' exercises like this because we were such a close part of the team that we would be invited to these kind of training sessions and stuff like that. And so a lot of the stuff that we saw, whatever, were like, you know, kind of like one-day workshops that were like, you know, Yeah. Oh, we're gonna bring everybody in and we're gonna trust fall and, you know, whatever, and everybody's gonna play a game where you, you know, get to know each other whatever. And it's like, but there's never any real— there seems to always be, you know, no lasting kind of like value or learning there. There doesn't seem to ever be any change that comes out of it, you know what I mean? And I'm— so I'm—

Yeah, no one's reinforcing it, right? And I do think that's the first thing people ask me, what happens after? I said, well, that's up to you. You got to reinforce the stuff we talked about. It's meaning. You need to raise the right questions. You need to call people, uh, on accountability for something. I've given you tools to use, but I can't do it for you. So part of what I offer are tools. So if I'm doing an organizational workshop around team chemistry, I first get to know everybody individually. And I do that through them taking the profile. So I become comfortable with their style.

Right.

They start to believe in— there's a pathway for them. They see their good areas. They see their blind spots. And they get very humbled by, OK, this is stuff I can manage. Then we go into the team session, and that's an all-day session that can be broken up into like 2 half days, whatever the retention model of that group is best for. But we're going through understanding the team dynamics. And takeaways are little ID cards that I give everybody on the team of each other.

Mm-hmm.

And on it are the key elements of reinforcing good behavior, the best way to communicate and not way to communicate with every person in that room. The value each of the things that those person bring to the table. So we go to them for that. We can collaborate and share time together with that. And the way someone likes to see themselves, because that's the part that's important so that you could support them on the things that they're not able to do. Those are things that you have forever. I have people call me 10 years later. I still carry those ID cards around. I said, you're in the same company with the same people? That's a problem.

That's an incredible idea because honestly, like, Can you imagine that? That stuff would have been so much richer and more meaningful, you know, it was just a kind of a simple solution like that. It's like, hey, look, remember, when you want to interact with Brian or whatever, make sure you, you know, check your card before you, you know, you walk into his office and sit down in his thing and, you know, and tell him how it is, you know what I mean? He's not going to react good to that or whatever. Like, those are the things. That's an amazing takeaway to be able to do.

The funny part of that, and I do believe it's a relationship tool, but I cannot tell you how many People have asked for their spouse to take it, and can I make a card on them?

Oh, of course.

Your spouse could always take it because I do believe relationships are important, but I think you could create your own card, right?

Yes, exactly. But once you know how to do it, right? I mean, that's exactly what everybody— everybody should walk around with those cards.

Um, it's what I do. Like, it's— I could do it automatically, and that's what I teach the leaders of that team to do because they've got to do it with everyone else in the company.

Right, right.

And they've got to know how to read their audience. So if you are actually getting your team ready to meet maybe a place that's going to look to get you into the next stage of growth, you have to play well and you have to read the audience on whether or not what they want to know from you.

Yeah.

You don't want to be too transparent on things that don't make sense, but you want to know your audience to know how they want to hear the delivery. Is it data? Is it relationship building? No, it's like, um, it's like a movie. Everyone's got a role. And everyone should know how to play their role to position the company for success. And we all don't do it the same way, and we all don't do it well. So let's be real, who's the one?

And the interpersonal part of that too, right? I mean, it's the interoperability between these people and these functions. And it's like, the idea is that, yes, you know, you might have a, you know, the operations guy is a, you know, is a 1 and a 0 kind of person and whatever, you know, whereas the you know, maybe you've got a creative side of the business or whatever too that is basically, you know, one of the big things. I worked at advertising agencies, right, when in my younger days, and it was at a change in the environment when I started, right, which is in the early '90s, which was you now started to have these creative people who are like, there's no— they don't wear ties and they wear jeans and stuff like that. And then the account executives are still wearing suits and ties every day and whatever. And literally in the office, you've got people who are literally sitting there. It was a point, a point of contention, uh, like always, right? Until like the summer Friday thing came, came around a few, you know, few years. And then, oh, there's a Friday where I can, you know, I can dress down and finally— but, but the issue—

Now that's not good enough. Now they want not to come. I mean, I remember growing up and working, I would die for a day of Friday off. Oh yeah, just have a 4-day work week. Today, that's, you know, I think people have lost sight of Well, that's true, the expectation.

But I, but I also think that the idea is that this— there is a, uh, you know, when you are in a situation where you've got to work with these other people and you're already starting at a place at a deficit, right? Like somehow, whereas this guy doesn't wear a tie, like, you know, I'm like, you're— I've been— I have felt that as a creative person. I, I switched from PR into, into into, you know, being a copywriter. And I suddenly, I got to wear jeans every day. And it was like, the reality was that, but, but that, but you would start a conversation, someone would be looking down their nose at you, like right off the beginning. Right? So I, I, what, what I'm, what I'm getting at here is the, the, the idea is that first of all, there are natural things that happen inside organizations and just the very nature of people's jobs make them different.

And so how do we, you know, how do we kind of like, you know, Well, that's where the DiSC is helpful because it takes the personality of what you think they should be away and you get to know them for who they are.

Right.

So, I do think that's the first piece. And private equity and businesses that are evaluating teams know this stuff now. I mean, it's, you know, ever since COVID people are having had to find ways to understand people from another lens of the coffee clutch, the martini or the golf game, because there wasn't any of that. So how do you get to do that? And so I'm always called in, uh, with the few private equity firms I work with to, could you meet that team and just tell me what you're thinking? And should we put more money? Do you think they've got the right team? And I'm not giving them any disc or anything. I'm just talking and meeting people. But what I'm looking at is how the chemistry—

Sure.

Can operate in that setting. And then it just helps that firm help them. Which is, hey, you need an operator on that team. It sounds like you all know how to go out and sell. Who's fixing the delivery mechanism, right? So that's where it comes from. It's all done to help. It's never done like, if I'm being brought in, it means they want to help that company, but they don't know how.

Yeah, right. It makes sense. Let's talk a little bit about the, about, again, back to kind of founders and their, and their, the kind of internal struggles that people, that, that people are And so I'm always— something that I'm always kind of aware of. And again, I wasn't always aware of this stuff, but I think over time, I, you know, I had to become aware of it. And like you said earlier, it's like the first step is yourself, right? Is like just being open to the fact that maybe the way that you're doing it, maybe the way you're looking at the world isn't the exact— the only way to look at it, and that there might be a better way. So keeping yourself open was the first thing I had to learn.

Yeah.

The second thing, though, I think, is a matter of everybody's got baggage, and everybody's got damage, you know, and, you know, whatever unhealed trauma or whatever that they're carrying around, right? And so this is going to manifest itself in the leadership style or, you know, or whatever. What is the— what do you got? What do you normally kind of— how do you deal with this, you know, kind of the internal struggles of the CEO in terms of The, the way it manifests out into the company culture and performance and that kind of stuff?

Well, the first step is they should recognize that something's holding them back. Now, they could blame everybody first, right? When I meet someone, so is everybody else. I go, okay, I bet there is a lot of that, but let's talk a little bit about you. I do think having a neutral third party could be a mentor, could be an advisor from a board, could be a coach or someone like me. You need to get a neutral ground where there's someone who's gonna help you unpack you. And it isn't your team. So let's not show your team all these sides because that, that's not fair to the team because they, they're gonna have their own insecurity.

Right.

What does this mean for me if we start talking about stuff that I have to be honest with you about? Right? So I do think you should be real and recognize you need to get some discussions outside of the company to help the company. And in that, you know, you gotta be open to hearing feedback. I have only seen projects not get continued when that person wasn't ready. To hear. You're part of this. The biggest first aha is you are part of everything you just told me. I know you said it's Mary, Bob, Joy, everybody, but let me step back. You own this. So it's really you not helping Mary, Bob. And so there's always gonna be the you component. Once you get them past that hurdle, it does become a lot easier to look at their blind spots and the areas where they need the help. But until you get there, Yeah. It's a little bit of a struggle to them to even believe it's not someone else. Because I, I know what I'm doing.

Yeah. It's like whenever there's a problem at a company, it's like, you know, if there's a problem, you're part of some of it, right? Whether you're 5% of it or 37% or 45%, like acknowledging that is, is a key component.

Well, it's like in communication, right? I mean, the reality is that it's a 50/50 split. The reality is there's the way that someone is interpreting what's being said and there's, and there's, you know, in terms of the way that it's come across and their, their own personal filter.

Yeah, right.

That's filled with all their stuff. And then there's the, then there's the other half of the person who's, you know, who's speaking and, and their, their own stuff. And so I always talk about how important it is that people need to get along because their damages can coexist. Like, you know.

Well, I do ask to meet the teams. So if someone's bringing me on, my process is I'm not just working with you. I need to understand how you impact situations and people. Right. And you can tell me, but it's always your version. And I'm sure there's a lot of truth to your version. But let me get some of the other versions too, so I can compile my own sense of what's happening. And so I'll always meet the key leadership team to help, you know, help define where the challenges might be coming from for that leader to lead right or better.

And Tish, when you go into, when you're working with these teams, is there a common, I mean, I know there's all sorts of not common things, but is there one that comes up Repeatedly? Is there one of these sort of either mental garbage or those types of things that come up with working with teams that's consistent, or does it vary?

I think the number one thing I've seen is lack of communication. And I don't mean they're not talking in meetings, but they're really not having that talk. They're not delivering that message. So it's about having those difficult, very sensitive conversations with people or the team. about what the problems are.

Right.

For holding someone accountable because they're not delivering or checking in to see whether or not, um, 2 people are not working well together. I gotta get that to fix, right? It's like having the conversations. People like to hope it just works out because I've heard, you know, leaders say, I hire leaders. They should be able to figure it out on their own. I'm not here to do it for them. I'm like, but your job is to make sure you have the right people. So what I'm hearing is you don't have the right people or you're not the right leader. Something has to break here.

Right.

And so this is how my dialogue will go on with them, because a lot of times their excuses for not having the tough conversation— I hire executives. Why would I want to jump in and micromanage? I said, it's not micromanaging, it's leading. There's a difference. Micromanage is doing it for them. I'm saying have the conversation for the observations you're seeing, what the team's seeing, what the company's experiencing. Who owns that better than you? Because you have no one else that really matters to you other than the business. So you're coming from it For the lens and the safety of the business, not your function, not a person on that team. You're the most neutral. All you care about is the business.

Right, right. You can actually be objective in that way. Right, right.

Yeah.

Don't let problems fester. Right. To your point, Tish, it's communicate. Let's have those difficult discussions because they have to be had. You might as well have them sooner rather than later.

And usually you're the one to have them because I think it's a different message when the founder or CEO or co-founders have the message with someone. Don't offset it to Right.

Don't outsource the bad news to somebody else or to, you know, yeah, that's actually—

One of the deliverables could be you 2 have to work better together, or you have to, you know, go get some assistance because your organizational skills are terrible, right? You need to go get— so you may also have some of those solutions you're expecting. So I like that from the standpoint of sometimes people need a little push in the right direction. Because I guess if they could have figured it out, they would have. No one likes to be in turmoil. So you have to assess whether or not they really don't know what to do to make this better. So you can be helpful on the solution side, just don't do it for them. But also tell them it's necessary because they're not reading the tea leaves.

Right, right.

You got to be able to give them— there's got to be— I always say it's like my kids. It's like, you know, you got to have— we got to have rules so we can have exceptions. You know, you can't go along in the whole thing with everything being exception until you, until you have something to base it on, you know, that is some kind of general kind of, you know, accepted practice, right? And if you're not in there, if everything is getting swept under the rug and everything is about somebody else's issue and somebody else is somebody's fault or whatever, or, or I've, you know, I've hired these people, I expect to be out of the fray. Like you said, I mean, the reality is right there is that if you don't put down, here's how we communicate and here's what our expectations are, Then you're, you're asking people to flounder, you know.

And also, you're not telling them it's wrong. Like, I'll use the bed making. Like, when I had my kids, they cannot— now they're in their 20s and they still make it in college, by the way. I've really ingrained it. But if I didn't tell them what was wrong about the bed making, like the pillow's off, the sheet's not tight, they didn't know. So the same thing goes for if you're not giving feedback along the way to let someone know that's not working. Or, I don't think that tone works. You also have to be able to give them some signs that there's an issue. Sometimes people don't realize. They really don't. They don't think. They think they're doing their job and I'll do it at all costs and boom. And then you have to say, well, that all-cost part, we just lost 2 people with that all-cost part. Maybe we've got to rethink the messaging. But if you don't tell them, I always say, did you ever give them that feedback yet? Because I love when they come to me and say, you need to coach so-and-so. Here's their problem. I said, well, do they know that's a problem? No, I haven't told them. I go, well, then maybe they would easily fix it if you highlighted it's a problem, right?

Start there and then see what happens, right? And then you can go to more stringent methods or measures if you have to. But the idea is that you got to start somewhere, and you got to start by talking. I find it so fascinating, Tish, because the, you know, the reality is we talk about this all the time, you know, we're very interested in the human side of this stuff because We see, we've seen so many deals fall apart because of the personality conflicts, the ability of the owner to be able to be like, dude, what are you doing? Why are you holding back documents? That, you know, things that could easily make this thing, you know, go smoothly. And it feels like you're kind of being like an ass here, you know, like, what's the problem? And why aren't we, you know, and why can't we move forward in a way. But I think that the idea is that there's so much here that is, that is about people's internal struggles. And, you know, you have no idea what people are going— you know, we worked for years in, you know, advertising agencies where people were like, you know, you, you have a good time and things are good. It's a kind of a nice environment most of the time, you know. It's kind of creative, it's kind of fun. Um, but the reality is, is that they're just— there's every once in a while you just run into somebody who is just an ass. And you're just like, why, why, you know, like, why do you have to be like this? Um, but I find it amazing that the reality is that people were working together to be able to do this stuff at all. I mean, it's kind of a miracle when you think about it. I mean, the fact of the matter is there's so many things that can go wrong. It's only maybe the, the objective business situation, um, that is actually the glue that holds everybody together in some way. In other words, like, there's this notion that it's all about the business, it's all about the business. If I just keep my head down, do my job, then everything kind of stays together. But the reality is, it's a matter of, if you need to optimize that just as much as you need to optimize financials or optimize your operations, your systems, right? Because a high-functioning business isn't just about the systems it has, it's all about the people.

Right. If you have someone who says, I can put my head down and do my job, they're not an executive around the table.

No.

They're a worker, which is great. We need them. I'm not saying everybody has to be an executive, but you just defined the wrong person in the wrong seat. If that is the goal of that leader, then they are a function leader. They are a manager, and they have a career path, but they don't belong at your executive table at that level, because that's not how to collaborate and work as an executive team. It is all about one. It is all about the business first. And as the founder or CEO of that group, you need to recognize that first. Because if you don't and others do, that's a problem.

That's right. That's the opposite.

Yeah. And it's so, it's so great that you mentioned communication as like the most important sort of, or, or the, the thing that sort of falls down the most, or you notice it the most. Because in my career, I, I 100% agree with you. Is that you notice the people who are really good communicators, and they tend to rise to the top, right? The, the person who communicates the best is usually the head and has gotten there because they're able to communicate and have those difficult conversations. So it's heartening for you to hear.

And they build trust, right? I mean, no one likes having a tough conversation, right? It's not like every day there are people out there who just love to have them. Nobody does. But if you can position it as a gift, right, you always— whenever I'm talking to someone about how to get comfortable to have this courageous conversation, there's 2 components. One, does your company— this is, again, what the founder and CEO has to think about— is do you have psychological safety? Do you have the safety around the table for people to say whatever is on their mind that's upsetting them, and they don't get ridiculed? There's no spite work. They don't go on that little list with the checkmark, and there's a target on their back. I mean, if you If you don't have that, you're never going to have a highly functioning team. So one, I do believe that's the role of whoever's the leader of that group to make sure that people feel comfortable, that there's going to be the ability to say what you need to say. Now, of course, you have to say it professionally. You shouldn't have some a-holes saying things that they shouldn't. I don't mean that anything goes. I just mean that we really can say, hey, look, John, you're late. And every time you're late, my team's late. What are we going to do about it? Right? And then John doesn't go back later to the CEO and say, oh, you see, blaming me, but I'm late because her team's late. That's not going to work, right? So, A, you want to have that sort of psychological safety. And then the second is recognizing what good looks like, because you need to describe to people what they should aspire to be doing. Many times they don't know, otherwise I think they would do it, right?

Yeah.

I think if we all knew the right thing to do, I believe we would do it because it's less burden for us. So I do think you have to have a plan or some example of what it is you're expecting of this team or that person. Because if you don't have that, you're not ready for the conversation.

Yeah.

Because I'd look at you and say, well, what do you want me to do? And say, oh, I don't know, figure it out. Well, then I think we need to figure it out together. So before you do anything as that leader for this group, one, make sure the room is feeling that they can do it. And 2, You've got what good looks like or great looks like so that you could then tell people in a way with, we can do this and this is what we should be doing. I think you need those 2, otherwise your conversations are not going to go well.

Right.

Yeah, great point.

Tish, do you— this comes up with us a lot internally because again, we just noticed, you know, we obviously were inside a lot of companies and we're talking to a lot of founders and CEOs, and we see a kind of a marked difference between male and female leaders. And I wonder what your take is on that. And do you see that in this particular context? And, and if you do, what do you see are the differences? And, and how can we, how can we make that, you know, more on level?

I'm a female leader. So, I mean, I, I don't know if there's this ceiling. that is there that we can't break. I don't ever feel that way personally. I work in a very male-dominated group when I work with private equity. I mean, it's not very heavily penetrated with females, though I do a lot of work to get more females involved. I don't know if there's a big difference from that lens. I, I don't know if we self-induce that. I don't treat anyone differently. I keep it evenly across the board. Do I have more male, um, clients at the helm? I do, unfortunately. I'd like to see more females take that role on.

Yes.

Do I think the emotions are, are there for both, both genders? Absolutely. It's different emotions, right? Maybe one is more trying to be thoughtful, more thoughtful, and one might be more insecure and arrogant, right? So the mo— but emotions in general are there. It's not like we don't both have it. So, no, I mean, I, I think that as we Watch the world evolve, we're going to see more female leaders.

Which we all want.

We welcome it, frankly, because we've found that female leaders— and again, this is in general terms, this isn't work— but the ones we've worked with are much more open to sort of receiving critiques and implementing those and working with things that they— their blind spots seem to be less. I don't know if I'm probably putting it right. But I think that that's, that's our general experience. Joe, do you want to add to that?

Well, I mean, I do think because we are mothers, and just by the way physics— yeah, um, you know, we have sixth sense. Like I joke that I don't sleep at night because I always wait for the phone to ring because both the kids in college, my husband sleeps and snores right through. He just says, wake me in the morning, tell me what happened. So I do think sometimes it's just prioritization. But then there are things he does Much better. I don't want to do. So I think once you define what you're good, good at and comfortable doing, it could be different in different situations. But I do think women in general might be a little bit more open to recognizing the value of someone's feelings.

Right.

Before they do something. Only because I can see— I have a girl and a boy, and I see, like, my daughter, all-girls school, in college. Girls can be tough.

Yeah.

And, you know, their hatred for each other goes longstanding. It could never end. Son, they could fight, beat each other up for a second, and then they're going out together. So I don't know if that's just the way it is in general for everything, is that biology— we may fester stuff a little bit and guys don't really care enough to hold it long term. I don't know. Right. But I do think it's know yourself so that you could project what you want. to have as what the goals are and make sure it's not personalized by what you think it should be. Make it what it should be for the business's sake. When you think about business, that's when I see the equality— equal male, female, business first, get the job done. And in both, when I've worked with both, everyone's very focused on that.

Right. It's interesting because it's— you're right. I mean, the reality is that the emotions might be different, right? The, you know, the inside trash might be slightly different or whatever. There's some biological components to it, probably, and things like that. But the process of getting through it is the same, right? I mean, like you said, it's just, it's the first step is knowing yourself. And the second step is then figuring out how, how, you know, and then everybody doing that, right? And trying to figure out how then you can basically, you know, how you can best communicate with each other and how you can get the most out of, out of everybody else. So it's, it's interesting. We, we just always saw it as like a As consultants, I think that I have— we have found that in general, women tend to be more open to asking for help. Yeah. You know, but I think that's just, again, I don't know why that is, but it's fine by us. And I think we need more. No question that we need more women in these leadership positions.

We probably work team-wise and collaborate. Faster. Like, even just use directions. I'll talk to anyone and say, hey, I think we're lost. My husband's like, don't talk to anybody. We could figure this out. I'm like, why? There's a family right there. They probably know where we're going. Right, right. So, I mean, I just think it's the openness to use our language maybe a little bit faster. That's all.

Can I ask a question about, you know, with all the teams you've worked with, what's the, what's the thing you've learned from all the consulting? The, the greatest, most impactful thing you've learned from working with all these teams Over the last 20 years, you stumped me.

I do think, yeah. Well, no, there's so many. I'm trying to come up with the one because I don't wanna put weight on one over the other. But for me, since I'm learning every time I meet people, and don't forget, I don't do it. I give guidance. I'm always so impressed by how much People kind of talk with me about how difficult something might be or how we spent weeks working on it. When they pull it off, it's like an immediate release of confidence that gets injected into them. And I think for me, everyone's got that, and everyone's got that in them. And it just takes different times and different situations and maybe length of time and, you know, years of experience. But I know when they've hit that, I can tell. And to me, everyone's got that moment. It's just, you know, when do we get to it? That's the part that I think is always interesting. When I first meet someone, in my mind, I start to think about, okay, how long is it gonna— I mean, how hard this will be? Can they do this? And people always impress me because some of the stuff is not easy. I've had people where it was a family-run business. I mean, talk about—

Oh.

Hard discussions that don't go away ever. They come home with you. They're at the holidays with you. And people do them. They, they, they, we get there. So I'm always impressed at the threshold of how people overcome their own fear, I guess, is, is what I think. Oh, and it's just different for each person, but that one kernel that happens.

Thank you.

Amazing. Yeah. I, I, what I, when we, uh, we talk about businesses transitioning or, or, uh, you know, moving into exit, uh, you know, trajectory is what we call it, right? Um, which is a mode. It's a different mode from what you've been doing and that kind of thing. What do you think are the essential kind of qualities? And because you also work on the buy side with people obviously examining these companies, what is it that you see are the things that make a company positive, good in this way, in terms of its salability or its viability from a an acquisition standpoint? What are the things that you see on these teams? What do you, what are you looking for, you know, when you're working with private equity groups as an example, and you're examining these teams?

Well, there's a clear vision, or some people call it the North Star, and everyone knows it. It's not changing based on function. It's the same. Everybody plays a part to get to it, but it's one vision. Um, now with that, I look to see if the vision has changed frequently. I think some of the biggest challenges for companies is focus. So if it's changed a lot, then we really don't have a vision. We've got ideas.

Right.

So again, when I say vision, the one North Star that everyone's aligned on. The second is in this North Star to get there, there are big 3 components. There's the sales aspect of it. There's the thing you're selling. It's the service or the product, and it's the operational scale for client success. Those 3 components have to have the right people, right seats if they're individually And those people know what they're doing and are able to have, um, um, a say in— because it's usually not the founder or the CEO— a say in how things are going to work among the 3 of them. I call them like part of the go-to-market team has to be able to work with the product and development team. There has to be a language that they all have.

Hmm.

And the good and the bad. It's easy when it's good. I want to know how they do it when it's bad. So it's the vision. It's, it's, it's aligning in those areas that I think are most important— sales, whatever it is you're selling, and the delivery. Um, and then it's the— this— I mean, those 3 really. I mean, to me, those are key. That's what I look for. Of course, no team has always all of it perfectly, but at least the potential is there, right?

Yeah.

If I see the glass ceiling's already hit with some and the potential is there at their max, you've got to get someone above them because they won't know what to do phase 2. You wanna make sure that this, um, this growth trajectory that you're on has everyone in it that is able to kind of get a little bit more out of them. Because if you've got them at their peak, I know those tough conversations are gonna be ones you're gonna hate having and you're probably not gonna do them. That's gonna hold your company back.

Right.

So when you are looking at scale, you want someone that for the next 18 months, they're good. They're still good, not they're good for the next 6 months. And I think sometimes we're shortsighted in our hire and we get what's here and now because maybe we're desperate for someone or we can't think that far in advance. Well, then you're setting yourself up that if that person can't scale, you're making a change.

Yeah, right. Yeah, no, it's, it's exactly right. And I think it's an interesting point to point out is that this is the time also where people tend to, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a fork in the road. Right, uh, naturally. So what happens is that what you're— again, for our audiences that understand that buyers are coming in here, one of the things that they are doing, okay, is they are looking for who's gonna make it moving forward, right? Who's gonna be involved?

I think they're looking for synergy first. They're gonna meet everybody and say, is everybody aligned here, or do I hear different things? Because people will ask you questions, and if you get different answers from different people, you go back to that founder and you say, uh, what, what really is But what are you guys doing? Right. So that's, to me, synergy first, then they go to skill.

Right. Then, and essentially, the reality is also, it's a matter of, you know, is this person someone that we want to be, like you said, capable of moving in and moving this particular segment of the business forward under this new leadership, new management, whatever, right? And so this is where, again, from a founder standpoint, your team, right, is, is you. Right? In a way, your team is basically— is, is part of what's selling you to another company, or, or not selling you to, to the new buyer, right? And so this is why this is so important, is because it's a matter of understanding yourself.

Well, the team is actually more important than you, right? Because they don't want to keep you, right? The odds are there's a good chance you shouldn't stay because you could be very hard on it. The odds are they're looking to see what have you built— a scalable business with the talent the team, because most times that leader does do better if they stay 6 months, transition, and go. Very rarely do I see it work for them. It gets really emotionally hard. So what they're not really looking at is you so much. They're looking at what have you built in this team, because I don't know if I want you to be here.

Right.

I want to make sure you've got a machine. And that's what I would say if you're looking to sell. You don't care about you as much. care about what you've built and they can run it without you, then you've got something to sell.

Absolutely. Tish Scolaro, um, you're fantastic. Your insight is, is unparalleled. I think it's amazing. I think I love the way— I love your process. Um, I love the way you, you kind of look at the world. And I think you're an incredibly helpful, uh, you know, person who's, um, you know, for people who are in that, in that situation where they, they're trying to Let's— how can we form better teams? Whether you're selling now or not, right? The reality is, is that it's not just about the end. It is very much about the success that you have and that higher-performing teams that communicate better, get along better, all that stuff, where you have better leadership, are going to be better companies in general, right? So, Tish, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. It's been awesome. Enjoy Miami. Obviously, we're We are enjoying some nice weather here in the Northeast, but not nearly as nice as it is there, I'm sure. Um, Tish, let people know where they can find you.

Oh, sure. Well, I have my company, Kander, so you can find me at kander-consulting.com very easily. I'm on LinkedIn. You can find me through that lens too. It's Tish Gualero. And the one last parting gift I'd say is don't build your business, um, to sell it. Build your business to be successful in a business that does change or brings value, because then everyone else is going to want what you have. When I find teams building a business to sell, they make short-sighted decisions which are not long-term, and usually they break. So it's excellent. Come find me. But there's a little parting gift. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thanks so much for joining us on the Exit Engine Podcast today. Really, really appreciate your time. Thank you so much.

You're welcome, and thank you both. Have a great day.

All right. Hey, John, you know, this is the kind of stuff, this is what I love about what we do, because we, we get to meet these amazing, you know, people, consultants, people who have really great insight and can really help businesses. Um, and Tish is just a great example of that.

Well, yeah, like the second, the second to last point that she made, I think, you know, all the points are great, but the second to last one about they care about the team you built, right? It's the company that's going to be It's the entity that's going to be left over after you leave and you go to Cabo or go on to your next adventure is what the comp— is what the buyer is buying. And that's what they need to make sure, that the team you've created is sustainable and is a machine, as she said.

Without you. Without you.

Exactly. Exactly. Without you.

Well, I'm always here to help. So maybe we could do some work together. I'm sure you have a lot of portfolio companies that might be going through this stuff.

Absolutely.

Absolutely. And that's exactly what we would— that's all about it. And we'll talk about how we could do that. But for sure, Tish, again, thank you so much. John, as usual, buddy, another great interview. Thank you so much for the time today. And guys, this is the Exit Engine Podcast. You can find, again, if you want, have a question about anywhere you are in your journey right now, as far as your journey to exit, or just thinking about the value acceleration your company, you can reach us at info@myexitengine.com. Send us a note, send us a question. We're happy to answer anything that comes your way. Again, you can find us, uh, uh, just about everywhere, social media, but particularly LinkedIn. Um, and, uh, we really appreciate, uh, everything you're doing. Again, this is Jo Stapleton. That's John Kniff. Have a great day, everybody. Thank you.