The Exit Engine Podcast Episode 50: Meet Judy Schramm!

Welcome to the Exit Engine Podcast, episode 50. Welcome to the Exit Engine Podcast. My name is Joe Stapleton. Of course, with me today is, as always, is my partner in crime, John Kniff. John, how are you, man?

I am doing great.

Excellent, excellent. I'm very excited about today's episode because we're gonna tackle an issue that is very important to all founders, regardless of the industry, regardless of, you know, vertical market, regardless of geography, regardless of where you are in the journey. But that is the power of thought leadership. And it's underrated, but it's a powerful asset in exit planning, believe it or not. And in terms of growing enterprise value. So there's no one better that I know right now to guide us through that than our guest and friend Judy Schramm. Judy is the CEO of ProResource, a personal branding agency that helps CEOs, founders, and executives harness the power of LinkedIn to build visibility, credibility, and influence. With a background in technology marketing and a client list that spans venture-backed startups to global enterprises, She's helped hundreds of leaders strategically use content to grow revenue, recruit top talent, and attract investors or buyers. Judy's also a frequent speaker, author, and LinkedIn whisperer for executives who know they should be showing up online but aren't sure where to start. So if you've ever wondered how to turn your experience into influence or how to digital— or how your digital presence impacts the value of your business, this is the conversation you want to listen to today. Judy Schramm, thank you so much for being here.

Oh, I am thrilled to be here. As I told you, I'm a huge fan of the podcast.

Thank you so much. That means so much to us. And it's, it's, it's wonderful to have people like you think that because you have so much experience in this particular space of influence. And so that is a huge compliment coming from you. You've helped hundreds of executives build their personal brands. What is the, what is the biggest misconception that you think that leaders have about LinkedIn in particular?

Well, what I've heard so often from CEOs is, I'm not looking for a job. Why do I need LinkedIn? And it, you know, that, that just shows that, that they don't fully appreciate the potential to, you know, to show thought leadership, to build relationships with prospective partners and customers and key hires and media.

It's so fascinating, right? Because the reality is that this is something that I think that we all kind of take for granted. Obviously, LinkedIn has been a, you know, a huge piece of what we're, you know, of the way that we're generating, you know, generating, you know, customers, you know, clients, generating, obviously, you know, curating our content. You know, outside of the podcast, it's our, it's our, it's our number 2, you know.

It's a free billboard, right? Someone said it recently. And someone said it, and I, and I had never thought of it that way. And when they said it, I was like, why haven't I thought of that? Why haven't I thought of my LinkedIn profile as that? It just, it was a great insight.

It absolutely is. And it's the, the best search engine optimization you can buy because Google and LinkedIn are so linked. That when you search on a person, when you search on a topic, LinkedIn is very often the first search result.

It's true. It works so well with the search stuff and with the AI stuff. If you— I came across an AI tool called Perplexity. I don't know if you've heard of this. Yeah. So it's getting pretty popular. It's been around for a while and it's a really good kind of research tool, right? So I put— someone told me about it. and told us, um, you know, oh, I put ExitEngine into Perplexity. You got to go see what it says. And so I actually, I did the same thing. I went in and looked at whatever. I was like, oh my God, it is exactly what we want to say. Like, it is, it comes because it's taking the content from all over LinkedIn and stuff and, and, and, and, and using that to, which is, which is exactly what, you know, most of the time you can probably find in advertising things, things that you're saying out there. And you might be surprised to learn sometimes when that feedback comes back that it's not exactly what you meant, right? But the thing that's happened that we're noticing is happening right now is because we are— this content is coming from us, right? Perpetually brings back the con— you know, it brings back in the way in which we actually intended, you know. So, right, we're talking about that other thing, but LinkedIn essentially is doing the same thing for us. We're able to do, you know, live webinars. We're obviously using this to show our content and to show our podcast off and all that stuff. And we're using it to generate, you know, client leads. It's a, it's like a real, it's a real tool.

Yes. And the two of you have a great presence. Not only do you have rich stories on your profiles, and you post regularly about your podcasts, but I see you engaging with other thought leaders.

Well, that's what we figured out was the key. And this is a great, perfect thing to bring up, Judy, because I think that this is what people don't understand, that this is, this to me is the biggest issue. You might, you might get the concept that it's a listing and I should have and I should be there. And I think most people probably are to some degree, right? But the— and then the next step is posting, which is again is what a lot of people stop there because, or even before that, because, oh, you know, I got to put myself on camera. I don't want to do that. I don't have anything to say, right? Which is right there, a limiting belief that is going to stop you from doing anything if you can't. If you can't put your thoughts out on paper somewhere and post them anywhere.

Well, it's like coming to a networking event and not talking to anybody, right? When, I mean, not talking to anybody, but—

In the corner, right?

Yeah, just in the corner like a wallflower.

Yeah, you have to. I mean, yeah, and I'm an introvert, so I like, you know, when I go into networking events, I force myself to talk to people and engage with people. And LinkedIn's the same way, as Jo was alluding to. It's one thing to go and to post and to be there. But when you like and you share and you comment and you engage, that brings out a story, that brings out a comment, a shared person. So talk to us, Judy, about how you're guiding your clients on using LinkedIn and optimizing it for their business.

Well, the first thing you want to think about is what is the goal? And, and so if your goal is to build business development, to generate more leads, to bring in partnerships, to bring in customers, then you're going to be doing some different things than if your goal is to make hiring easier. So, so, you know, you want to start with what do you want to accomplish, and then who do you need to impact? To get those results? And so that might be customers, it might be employee, you know, job candidates. Yeah. And then what do those people need to know about you and your business to say yes, to step into a funnel, to, you know, go check out your job postings, to take the next step? Right.

It's interesting because I think that, again, that when we looked at it, You know, the real reason we started this podcast at the very beginning, Judy, was was so we could clip it for LinkedIn, right? I mean, we because here is the problem. Even you know, John, I had a little bit more experience prior to this in terms of the social media thing. I had I took many false starts at okay, I got to create content and I got to be out there and I got to sit in my car and you know and film myself. you know, talking about some topic and things like that and whatever. And I knew that was the case. And I knew that the posting part was really important. And the motivation behind getting to do that was a barrier, right? Because we're self-critical. We're stopping ourselves from doing it, whatever. The big learning for us was that the fact is that what I realized when we came in to start doing this was if we— this would— doing this podcast and doing it on video would be able to be a way for us to be able to create content that we could then— so we could clip this podcast up, right?

Right.

And get content out there in an easy way. Um, John and I are naturally good at talking, and so we can talk forever if we could just record it.

Jo's better at it than me.

That's right.

Well, I, I think that's an important point, that this is a very friendly place for introverts.

Right. Yes.

To create their presence, because you can think about what you say before you say it, whether you're doing posts, whether you're doing videos. If you're doing videos, you get to do it a couple times before it goes live. Yeah. So you can fix things.

Right.

And when you're commenting on other people's posts, again, you're not— you don't have to come up with something really pithy. very quickly, you can think about it and then post.

That's right.

And so this to me is the introvert's dream.

Absolutely right. That's a really good point. And again, that's where— that's how— and I can say from experience that that's what got us— that's what opened the door. So I won't say that the podcast and doing it this way was made or break— necessarily makes or breaks our our LinkedIn thing. But I think that what it does is removes a barrier to entry, right? And that is the emotion, like an emotional barrier, which is just like, okay, if I just do this, I clip it up, we give it to Dave, Dave does a good job of editing it, right? The podcast goes out, that's fine. But then he takes the thing and we're taking this podcast and we'll post this pod, you know, elements of this thing 3 times next week, right? And before it goes out and all stuff. But then With some of the AI tools now out there and things like that too, what we're able to do is even, is clip it even further and be able to spread it out further and longer and wider and all that stuff too.

Right.

But getting back to the LinkedIn, I think that, I think the thing that's most important is, is let's go back to kind of the idea behind thought leadership, because again, it's one thing to say, here's mechanically how we do it, right? But the, but the, the biggest thing for, I think the biggest barrier for most people is that do they have something valuable? They, their thought of themselves and whether or not they have something valuable to even say. Right?

Right. And that is where my writers come in, because what we do is we interview our clients and then we pull posts out of what they tell us. Right. And so where you might have an idea, but you're not really sure, okay, how do I make a post out of that? without sounding, you know, kind of foolish or, or too salesy, right? Something like that. Your writer knows exactly how to do it. And so we take the ideas from the clients and then we turn them into posts.

That, and that's the way, that's exactly the way. And again, similar methodology, right, John? I mean, the reality was we were saying was, yeah, we've got this content, we're gonna have this, we're gonna be out there talking, let's just put it up. And, and that's where it started. But Then we got, then we had to get to this other side, right? Which is that, so once we started doing that, we saw, okay, good. I'm getting some, I'm, I'm making posts. Excuse me. I am, I'm out there, but the engagement's still low, right? And it turned out that the thing that we, that kind of broke this open for us was realizing that it's not just about posting, it's about engagement overall, right?

Exactly. And, and the tactic that you use is so powerful, and I wish everyone would do it. You know, even people who don't, you know, have the wherewithal or the time to do a podcast can still go find thought leaders who their audience is paying attention to.

Yep.

See what they're posting about and add their comments and their insights. It is the easiest way to start using LinkedIn and bringing people back to your profile to say, oh, that was interesting. What, what does this person do? And then come and learn more about you and your business. Right.

And Judy, those, right, the process you described, you know, you start with the overall, you know, goal, right? The, what is, what am I trying to accomplish? You bring it down to an interview and then the writers sort of draw out the points or the posts. What could you articulate, like, what are those, what are the things that are, that resonate, or you found that the writer, the writers found have resonated with with an audience about from the interview that they're pulling out to post?

So it's the personal perspective. You know, there's all kinds of news out there. There are product launches and partnerships and deals, and there should be posts around that. But the things that people really appreciate most are create some transparency into what the CEO is thinking. You know, yep, you didn't get to be CEO of this business for no reason. You have a lot of knowledge about the industry. You have perspective on where things are going. You see things a little differently from everybody else. And when you open the door to sharing that with— in your posts, to sharing that with the people who are paying attention to you.

Great point.

They love it. Everybody is so hungry for, for information they can't get elsewhere. What can they get from you? What can you contribute to the store of knowledge in the universe that really can't come from anywhere else?

It's true. Everybody has their kind of unique perspective, right? And whether they, whether they know it or not, right? And then there's this matter of authenticity.

Right. And for CEOs, it's so important. People want to know, especially if they're thinking about buying your business. They want insight into how you think, you know, who you are as a human, who you are as a leader. And LinkedIn is one of the only places where you can get that.

No question. And I think you can get it in the, in the, in the video form. where it's actually you. It can come from the, you know, the written form, right? Your ability to be able to— some people are visual in terms of not just about the video, but visual in terms of the, you know, graphics they put up and the way that they show models and things like that, right? It gives you the flexibility to be able to do any of that stuff based on who you are and what you do, right?

And people want to, you know, to your point, Judy, about one of the goals being employment, right? If, if you're going to join a company and you're able to see the CEO and she's talking about something that is maybe not directly related to the business, but something that you care about and you can relate to her on a level that's not the business, I would imagine that that increases your, your, their desire to join, join the company.

Right. We have worked with so many senior executives like VPs, SVPs, EVPs, who joined the company because of what they saw about the CEO on LinkedIn, because they felt like this was a person who they resonated with, who was a great leader and was taking the company in an exciting direction. And they're like, I want to be part of that. And how else are they, you know, how else are they going to find that? It's just so easy on LinkedIn.

Right.

How do you think— I mean, speaking of that, where do you think that the personal brand of the founder in general kind of impacts a company's valuation?

Well, that's a great question, and it impacts it in 2 ways. And you really have to think about this based on where you are in the lifecycle. When you're getting a company started, the CEO is the business. The CEO is the thought leader. And, and what you want is to get your ideas out there, get your vision out there, help people see what you see, and, and join you, get on your bandwagon. And, and for that, the CEO has to be out there, has to be talking, sharing ideas, you know, just being, being visible. Right. Yep. As you get further along in the business, the CEO steps back a little bit. And other thought leaders arise. The CEO is, you know, maybe you have a chief scientist or you have a CTO or, you know, chief medical officer. It could be a lot of people.

Right.

But other people step into the thought leader role and other people step into business development, sales, marketing. So at that point, the CEO becomes the person who embodies the culture.

Right.

And, and, you know, you're, you're dealing with a different issue. You're, you're, you're being a leader of the people there.

Right, right.

Then as you start to get closer to selling, the CEO steps back because you want the business to be able to run without you, and you want that to be clearly visible that, that the other people can run with this. And when— what you want to do there is start building up even more people as thought leaders. So every key role in the business needs to have a person in charge, right? So that people can see these people know what they're doing. They know the industry. You know, they're— they've got grit. They're really competent. Build those people up. And at that point, the CEO just gradually pulls back.

And, and what about pushback on that very thing that you mentioned, Judy, right? Because I can imagine from your smile, maybe you're getting— you get— you probably get pushback from founders because they're They can be stubborn, as you know, and as we know, and they can be headstrong and have ideas about things. But what's, what's the typical pushback you get when, when you talk about implementing that strategy you just mentioned, is taking a step back or elevating other people?

Yeah. So some of them are totally on board with it. And in fact, if they're within 5 years of selling, lots of times they'll say, I don't want to build my brand.

Okay.

And, and, and they get it. There are other people who, you know, maybe a little ego is involved. You know, they're the ones who built the business out of nothing. And, and they like having that, that, you know, that prominence.

Yes.

And, and so for those people, you can kind of talk to them about transitioning to a chairman of the board.

Role, right?

Or still being the visionary, but not as much the CEO.

And you can be— and by the way, being the CEO, okay, is a— to your point, is a completely different job, okay, than being the necessary— it can be both. As you say, in the beginning, it is both, should be both. The difference is, as we move forward, maybe, maybe you become more— you are the face. Right? And less of the running of the day-to-day. Because, right, that's the other thing. Because, excuse me, I'm so sorry. So sorry, guys. The, um, we have, we need to have the mic, uh, you know, thing, the coughing button. Um, we, uh, in any case, the idea is that when you are, in order to grow the business, you, you're going to change what you do over time. All right? And so Yes, starting as the face, absolutely. But we see people, to your point, if we, you know, move someone, then we recommend, you know, moving someone into the, you know, chairman of the board role, bringing in, you know, another CEO that maybe has more direct CEO experience for the point at which they are at this time, which might be growth, which might be acceleration somehow, which might be new markets, something like that.

Right.

But the ability is that the overall, the person who knows the industry the best, right, and knows the issues and is on top of the things that are going on is actually, is normally the person who started the business, right?

Right.

And so being able to continue to be that is fine. But I think that your point is to say, look, but if you want the overall business to be more valuable, then it's not just about you as the face of the business. It's about also starting to get these other people who are important factors in the business and have by the way, also have unique perspectives, right, within their little bailiwick that's within this larger business, right? And so that has repercussions across everything. But overall, what you're saying is that the value of the company raises when I've got the promotion and the publicity and the transparency and the authenticity of the people that are guiding it.

When you make those people visible, And you showcase their strengths, you make the business look stronger.

Right. That's it.

And there is one thing that we have seen some of our clients do where there is a CEO who is starting to step aside for someone else, and that is to get involved at the industry level.

Right.

So take on a role at an association, you know, to be on a committee, to be on the board. You know, that gives them prominence and they still use their voice publicly, but on a bigger scale even than the business.

Yeah, it's funny. I had that experience in one of my jobs. I was working with a board and reshaping a board, and we relied on CEOs from these companies to be that voice that you just mentioned, Judy, right? That, that They certainly run their business and they were very capable, but they stepped out and became the voice for the real estate industry. And in this case, it was in New York City, but it happens all over the country.

And in every industry.

Right. In every industry. Exactly. And being that, again, and this comes right to— this is thought leadership, right? The ability to be able to say out in the world, whatever, from whatever point of view you come from, that you are able to basically shed light on On the issues of the day, the things that are affecting the businesses within the industry. And frankly, the reality is, again, is it showing your— the thought that you have, right, demonstrates your capability, right?

Yeah. And it also— one of the things you want to think about is being visible in service of the business because you want the right people to find you. And I, you know, just based on what I see, most CEOs get a steady stream of acquisition offers, right? Um, but are those the right offers? Are you visible to everybody? Are you— you know, a lot of offers come from overseas. Are you visible easily there?

Right.

And we, we actually worked with a company that had a very, very low LinkedIn and web, no web presence. And they were, it was funny because they were, they were 3 founders. They were looking to exit and they're ready to retire. Their kids did not want in.

Mm-hmm.

Which, which had been the original plan. But, um, they, and they decided they didn't want to sell. They decided they wanted to hire a new layer of management that would run the business for them. But because they didn't have that visibility online, people couldn't research the company and learn about it before they came in for the interview. And as a result, the recruiting firm was feeding them steady stream of strong candidates, but the interviews were useless because they spent the entire time talking about their own business.

Right. Which, which wasn't transparent, which wasn't— information wasn't available. So it's a Yeah, self-defeating proposition. Yeah.

Right. So we built a presence for them, all 3 of them on LinkedIn. And at that point, because, you know, and we use LinkedIn because it's faster than the web, right? Um, but that gave the people, the job candidates, enough information that they could prepare for the interview. They could come in, they could offer ideas, and as a result, they were better able to assess the candidates, and they ended up hiring people. Company's doing great.

It's amazing. It's amazing. And again, it is the kind of thing where I have seen a profound change in LinkedIn in terms of what its goals are. Have you seen that? So I remember, was it 2008, 2009, or whatever when it— 2007, maybe? When it—

2004. Yeah. Well, 2003 is when it launched. 2004 is when I joined. I was in the first 100,000 people.

Amazing.

And, um, yeah, initially it was all resumes, right? And it was, you know, this is where you go look for a job. And then around 2009, other people, um, including me and my company, said, hmm, we could build prospecting lists using the information on LinkedIn. And at that point, you know, up to that point, they were very anti-using it for sales, but yet You know, they kind of caught on with that. And then around 2014, they started to think, hey, you know, we could be a publishing company. And that's when they started making it possible to do blogs and, and really ramping up the posts and the thought leadership. So it has evolved hugely. What's the most—

what's the thing that you've learned the most about LinkedIn that sort of that you don't think people know, or when you tell them, like, something that either you think that they should know or that you sort of have taken for granted?

That's a great question. I think one of the things is what we already talked about, which is that engagement is a huge opportunity. When you comment on a thought leader's post, this could be somebody who's famous. It could be Adam Grant.

Right.

And you comment on their post, you're effectively introducing yourself to him. People pay attention to who's commenting on their posts. And, and that not only gives you the opportunity to kind of meet that person, but also to be in front of all the people who follow them.

It's the network effect, right?

Extremely powerful.

Right. Very.

And very few people realize that.

It's true. And I gotta tell you, it's one of the things that we, you know, that we kind of caught on to. I had seen the profound change in LinkedIn too. And I remember it back in the day being the kind of thing where it was like, wait, we should be using this to introduce ourselves to other people. Why is it that every time I try to, I can only connect with people I know, like in real life? It was like, well, okay, that's great. And we can grow. I can say that I know these people. But I always thought that the networking part was supposed to be what it was, right? Like, and I guess I can see around the job thing, and maybe at the time I, you know, I wasn't in the job market, so that's maybe why it wasn't— I never thought— didn't think about it like that.

Yeah.

But I can also say that I had plenty of experience using it as a, as a tool for job search and was not, not a fan.

Well, I, I've been running my own business for a long time. And so I have never used it for my own job search either.

Right.

But we have used it for clients for job search.

Yeah. And again, it's no question that they obviously saw that as a, it was one of their, as you said, one of their primary kind of functions at launch. And they kind of built that piece out, obviously. But what you learn, and again, this is the, this is what I think what Judy brings to the table so, you know, perfectly is that It is— there is a practical approach to this. This isn't a willy-nilly situation, right? Like anything else, any marketing, sales, whatever, you know, it's a, it's a planned approach, right? And there are steps and there are ways to optimize it that aren't just about, well, I'm out there. LinkedIn will tell you, you know, post 3 times a week. Right. But that's Right. Is that really taking advantage of it, of everything? And they're not— what they're not telling you is, hey, make sure you engage with other people. Make sure you— because again, it should be in service of the business or of the— at least of the goal, as Jodi mentioned earlier.

Yeah. Yeah. Right, right. What they don't tell you, a lot of people will say post 3 to 5 times a week. And, you know, if you're in lead gen mode and if you're growing a small business, especially where there's a strong educational component, Post 3 to 5 times a week. For most CEOs, once a week or even twice a month is fine.

Hmm.

You don't have to post all the time. And there is actually kind of a bit of a backlash that comes the more often you post, because if you're a CEO of a good-sized company and you're posting 5 times a week, first of all, it is crystal clear to everybody that it is not you posting.

Right.

And so people discount it. And then second of all, people don't— people are like, don't you have a job? Right.

Aren't you running a huge— aren't you running an important business?

Yeah, right, right. Shouldn't you stop getting off— get off social media and start running the company?

Do something meaningful. Yeah. So, so it's, um, so you, you know, you have to think about that. And then, and then the other piece, we've seen this We had a client at one point who wanted to blog twice a week. And, you know, you can blog 2 to 5 times a week if you're a company, but for a CEO to blog that often, people don't want to hear that much.

Too much, right?

You know, it's, it's too often. And what we found was his readership started out really high. People were delighted that he was doing that, and then the, you know, fell off a cliff. Cliff, because people are like, I don't want to hear from him that often.

Well, yeah, there's only so many announcements that you want the CEO to announce, right? If she's announcing everything or she's all over, the only one posting, that's not a good use of her intellectual capital, if you will, or her resonance. That's not the right word.

No, but if you're advocating for something, sustainability, or, you know, there's, you know, there's something you're trying to show people is possible that they don't know is possible. You know, where it depends on where your business is and what you're trying to accomplish, there can be very good reasons to post. You know, look at all these other people who believe in sustainability. Look at all these people who are doing really cool things in this field. You know, we're not the only ones. And it, you know, when you wanna make that point, you could post a lot.

Right.

But you probably teach. Yeah.

And, and again, based on your schedule and all that stuff, and again, all, all your goals and objectives. But the reality is you, you might be better off spending time commenting on other stuff, people's stuff, right? Than, than, than making new stuff.

And especially at the CEO level, Because CEOs see things that other people don't. They have a deeper understanding and they have more experience and they can contribute in a meaningful way. It's one of the things we do for our clients is for clients who want to be able to do that, we will find posts for them so that they don't have to scroll through their feed or go search on their own.

Right, right.

We monitor the other thought leaders, and when we see a post that they can make a meaningful addition to, then we share that with them. They just—

How do you guide your clients to balance between their personal brand and the brand and the company's brand, or speaking on behalf of the company, speaking on behalf of the person? How does that work?

So that's a great question. The, um, you do— the CEO always does want to amplify what the company is doing, because especially in a small to mid-sized business, the CEO probably has more people paying attention to them than, than are paying attention to the company as a whole.

Okay.

And, and so you do want to, you know, repost what the company is posting. But I, I would not make that more than 50% of the posts.

Hmm.

People want to see what the CEO is doing. And, you know, just one example, Doug McMillon, Walmart, does that extremely well. His whole presence is focused on what he's doing with employees. It's full of photos of him and different teams and the stores he's visiting. And You— he just looks like such an advocate for the workforce.

Interesting. That is interesting. Yeah. And I wonder if he actually is. I just, I mean, I just wonder. I don't know. I'm just saying that. But it's interesting though that you can cultivate that, right? I mean, the reality is, is that again, it is marketing in a way, right? And so your ability to be able— it's— that's obviously intentional, right? That has to be intentional, right? Because he's gone out and said, look, this is what we're going to use this for and what my Strength. And again, that might be, again, from a labor standpoint, which is obviously a major factor for that company, right? It's obviously from a supplier standpoint, shareholders, right? All that stuff. So he's got, he's got multiple stakeholder audiences, right, that he can kind of COVID off on by, by taking that approach.

Right. Because customers do care that you treat your employees well.

Right.

And, and I was actually talking to Ken Fisher, Fisher Investments. Yeah. Um, I asked him, I said, so do you, do you use social media when you're evaluating stocks? And he just looked at me and he said, yes. So do you pay attention to the employees or to the public? He was like, the employees.

Hmm.

So you know that what the CEO and especially CFO COO do in social media is factoring into the analyst recommendation.

Right, right. You know, and that has, that has major repercussions, you know, back into the exit planning standpoint, right, in terms of how you're valued and how you're seen at the time at which you, you're looking to be able to, you know, to sell the company. The public relations aspect of it, the ability to be able to, the authenticity Right? The ability, the transparency, all that is what we preach, right? Because that is de-risking the company for the buyer, right? And if the buyer can— and we are using in our, you know, consulting practice, we are using social media and this aspect of things, especially in order to, you know, really for 2 things. One is obviously to bring buyers and that kind of thing. But the second thing is also just to bring capital investment, right? The ability to be able to see people are investing in people.

Exactly. Exactly. No matter how big your business is, no matter how strong it is, there's a lot of data around the value of the CEO's reputation. Weber Shandwick did a study on this a few years back, and they— it was, I think it was like 46% of a company's valuation comes from the reputation of the CEO. I mean, it's huge.

Yeah, it's huge. And by the way, it makes it a subjective situation, which makes valuation difficult. But also, again, why valuation actually isn't the thing, right? The salability of the company is the thing. The value is basically an agreed-upon value. We always say that value is in the eye of the beholder, right? So Right. But the ability to be able to take this seriously as an instrument of value creation. And so what we're looking at, this is true in our business, right, John? I mean, the reality is that we are, you know, I think there are a couple of places that LinkedIn has been, you know, just incredibly helpful. And one of them obviously is the promotion, the air cover, the brand building, right? This is who we are. This is how we get ourselves across. You know, people resonate with us. You know, we have our, you know, our biggest fans on the phone right now. But, but the, but, but I think what's interesting is that tactically, the, the, the, the, we talked about the outbound, the posting and all that stuff, but talk a little bit about the profile page itself, because I think that again, there's, I've heard lots of different things. I've changed my page. I think I probably change it every time I come across somebody who says to change it a certain way or whatever. And again, what's new? But I'd be interested to hear what is your take on the profile page itself in terms of it being— it's factoring into, you know, kind of all of this.

So there are some very definite things that CEOs want to make sure that they do on their profile. And I'll just plug, I've written a book Please. How to Craft a CEO Brand on LinkedIn. And, and so there's a lot to say, but, but I'll say there are a couple of things that I think you really want to focus on, right? The first one is your headline, and that's the text that goes directly under your name. And LinkedIn will, will auto-create it for you as CEO of and then your business name. But this is like the subject line of an email. When you turn up in search results, people are deciding whether to come click on your profile based mostly on your headline. They can see your name, they can see your headshot, but the headline is what really makes the difference. So you want to give people enough information to build credibility and tell them they're in the right place, which means you need more detail about your business.

Right, right.

Um, the About section is where you tell the story. It's how did you get where you are? Where are you going? You know, why is this so meaningful for you? What is your vision for the future? And, and that comes near the top of the profile, and it's so powerful. That's, that's where you can connect with people deeply. Uh, the Featured section gives you the opportunity to provide links where people can go to learn more. So I like to think of it as if you could control the first page of Google search results, what would you want people to find, right? And, and so you can put the best articles, the best podcasts, the, um, you can put calls to action up there, right? Um, and then, um, you know, you should be stuffing your profile full of keywords.

Interesting. Yeah, because that's the keyword, right? Right.

In terms of helping people find you, it does not matter 100%, but if you are not using keywords in your profile, if all you have is a list of job titles, you are really missing out.

Yeah, right. That, that, that's valuable stuff that the search engines use to be able to actually pop you up on Google. So that when people are searching for— not for your name, when you search for your name, It comes right up. LinkedIn is like the, right?

Yeah. It's interesting that, you know, the, I imagine as companies are smaller and the CEO needs to, you know, brand him or herself in some certain way, shape, or form, like when people don't have an image of what the company is and they're getting the image of the company through you, through the CEO, it becomes of paramount importance that they have to have those keywords and have those things so that people can associate themselves or they can, they can know quickly what the business is about.

Exactly, exactly. Because so many— everybody's going to come and look at you on LinkedIn. Your customers, your, um, your employees, your partners, investors, um, acquirers. Anybody who's coming to meet with you is going to check— come and check out your LinkedIn profile.

They're going to do it. And the reality is that, look, they are probably going to start with a Google search, right? And they're going to throw that or, or Nowadays with a lot of people, right? ChatGPT or whatever. Yeah. And then of course they're going to get those results back and the next thing you're going to go, all right, there's the website, there's the thing. You've got a bio on the website, you've got that stuff, whatever, right? And now I know what generally what the company is. And then the next thing I'm going to do is check out the LinkedIn profile.

Yep.

Start to look at that, just decide, you know, again, starting to just from a research standpoint, what's the post they've made, what's their— right, all that stuff.

And who do they know that I know, right?

There you go.

The connections, that's so powerful. If you go to somebody's profile and you have 200 connections in common and the names that pop up are people you really respect, right?

Well, it's huge.

You mentioned that. I just did that this morning. I was— I don't even know who I was looking for, but I found somebody that it's almost like someone that I should have known. Like, if you have 200 Common connections and you don't know the person. It's sort of, that's a, that's a rarity, right?

Right, right. But you, but they have instant credibility with you.

Exactly. Wow. Jo, Jo bothered to connect with this person. You know, I better, I should get to know this person.

Yeah.

Right, right. The, the, I was gonna say the, the, tell me, let's go back to Judy for your, your career. OK, I want to, I want to hear about your, your founding story. How did you get here? You started this obviously a while ago. You've been working with LinkedIn really since its inception. As you, as you mentioned, you were one of the first 100,000 people there. What, what, what has your— what got you here is my biggest question.

Well, to be fair, I will sign up for almost anything. And so I didn't do a whole lot with LinkedIn for the first couple of years because I wasn't looking for a job.

Right.

But what happened was we, we hit that recession, 2008, 2009, and I was running a marketing agency. Our clients' budgets were slashed. You know, the clients we had in manufacturing tech, those, they went away overnight. And, and everybody else was like, yeah, we have, we have, we have to do what we do on a very small budget. And I got the idea to try LinkedIn to Build a prospecting list instead of buying a list. Build a list of really highly qualified prospects. Could be a small list if they're perfect fit, right? And then using LinkedIn to go reach out to those people and, um, introduce the clients. And it worked beautifully.

Wow.

And, and I was just thrilled. Um, it solved so many marketing problems. You know, how do you meet somebody? How do you stay in touch with them? How do you educate them over time? How do you move them into a conversation? It could all be done on LinkedIn.

And no, and with no media buy.

Right, right.

So that there's, there's your cost savings, right? This is all just, you know, let's pay Judy's team to do this, right? But I don't have to go out and spend a million dollars on, on some kind of media placement.

Or, or buying lists. Back then you had to buy lists. So we didn't have to buy media, we didn't have to buy lists. That saved huge amounts of money. Right, right.

Absolutely interesting.

So we started doing this and then we realized, we were like, you know, some of the clients are getting amazing results and it's not the ones with the biggest budget. So what's going on? And we did dug deeper into it and we realized that it was the ones who had a rich profile who told a strong story and then did a really good job of staying in touch with people, of, you know, post, you know, doing posts and having conversations. And, and we were like, hmm. And so we started doing that and we were doing that for founders. And then we got this, we started doing it for bigger companies.

Mm-hmm.

And then Cisco brought us in. And had us start doing profiles for their executives. And it just, we evolved into a, into really focusing on personal branding and thought leadership.

Yeah, really interesting. Really great story. It's, it's, again, and by the way, you know, big lesson in there, again, was not what you were really talking about, but just something I'd like to pull out of these stories is that, is this arc, right? So what Judy did too was listened to the market tell her where to go, right? Which is a very, very important thing to do from a founder standpoint and from an overall strategy standpoint. So many times we are so locked up in what we think we should be doing or the original thought that we had about what we do. And you felt— you've probably heard, you know, you felt some adversity, right?

You rose—

this LinkedIn stuff rose out of Right, out of budget cuts and things like that. And you were looking at your own business going, uh-oh, what do we do now?

Right? Yeah, very much so. And we've had to pivot multiple times. You know, we had to pivot during COVID COVID was actually very good for us, actually, because everybody realized, ooh, people are meeting me first on LinkedIn. Yeah, I really better up my game.

That's when we really saw what— that's when I saw the profound change, you know, was that it became— and I guess maybe as a result of the pandemic, it was, you know, became more open. It became less about, I already know you, and more about, you know, oh, I can— yes, let's, let's hook up, let's meet, let's connect. Um, a lot of people probably, you know, suffering from lack of connection during that time, right?

Very much so, right? Yeah. And, and open To non-local people, right, that they hadn't been before. Because if we're on Zoom, then does it really matter if you're down the street or across the country or in a different country?

Absolutely.

And that's like the whole return to office thing, right? It's like return to office. It's like it didn't really matter if everyone's on LinkedIn or everyone's on Zoom.

Where are—

it doesn't really matter where you are, you know?

Right, right. But the— but what we've seen too is that I now Right? And I talk to people from outside of this country every single day now. That was not something that I did back in the old days, you know, in the marketing agency days, you know, whatever. I never spoke— I mean, every once in a while, you know, there was one time we're like, oh, we're gonna hire a company from England, and so we're gonna, you know, whatever. But for the most part, I mean, our CTO is in Britain. Our, you know, we have hooked up with people from all over the world as a result of LinkedIn because That just opens you up to so, so many different options, opportunities, and everything else. And, and I found so many people willing to talk, and it's how we're— it's, it's essentially how we're growing Exit Engine, right?

Right. Well, what you do is universal, right? Every business owner around the world faces the same things that you talk about.

That's right. That's right. And, and, and that the advisory partners, you know, Judy, like you, and, you know, who are in our network and the whole thing, are We found, you know, we find this way. And, you know, and there's so many incredibly— I mean, look, you know this. I mean, social media in general, you know, does this. It opens you up to more stuff. It opens you up to, you know, to more possibility if you know how to harness it. And I think that the real thing that you're bringing to the table, you know, for everyone is Here, here are some real tactical— these are— this is how you do this, right? Um, and it's not willy-nilly, like we said before. It's not out there. It's not scattered approach. It's a very, you know, uh, planned, you know, a goal-driven, um, you know, measurable situation, right?

Very intentional.

Right. Intentional.

That's it. I talk to people who just— who say, well, I post on LinkedIn, and I look at their posts And I say, I, I don't see a strategy, right? You know, it's, it's not clear what you're doing there. You know, you're posting about things that are personally interesting to you, but if you want to move down a path, you need to be more intentional, right?

Let's talk a little bit about— we have a few minutes left. I want to get into lead generation on LinkedIn because I think it's one of those things that right now is very, very hot.

Yep.

We see a lot of people come at us, you know, obviously, you know, saying what they can do, you know, from a lead generation standpoint. We've all subscribed to LinkedIn Navigator, you know, and Sales Navigator or whatever, and things like that. And obviously there are now AI tools and things like that out there that help you do manage a lot of this stuff. But what is the, the real question is, is that how do you advise Using LinkedIn as a, as a lead generation tool?

Well, the first thing is you need to, to create a content strategy. And that could be for a CEO that's partly going to be company driven and partly it's going to be you as a thought leader. And you start with that. And then you want to look at what volume of leads do you need, right? There are a lot of businesses that don't need a huge volume, right? And for that situation, doing outreach, you know, researching using Navigator, which I love, right? Um, and building prospecting lists, introducing yourself, um, you know, getting conversations started. LinkedIn is so powerful for that, right? And, and for those businesses, that's fantastic. And you can do it manually. It does not take that much time.

Right.

There are a lot of tools out there now that are either automation-based or AI-driven, and, uh, you need to make a trade-off there. They— most of them violate LinkedIn's terms of service.

Right.

So you have to be comfortable doing that. Like, I, I do know people whose profiles have been taken away, right? Because they violated the terms. Um, so, you know, it's a risk-reward thing, but those, those tools can be very effective at identifying prospects, especially if you work with a broad brush.

Right.

Yep. And, um, and they can Fill your funnel with different, you know, conversation opportunities.

Right.

And then, um, at the other end are LinkedIn ads.

Right.

LinkedIn has a wide range of different ad types. It's, it, you know, it's nowhere near as sophisticated as Google's ads, um, but you have a lot of options. And this is a pretty good way of getting your company, your collateral, your events in front of the exact people that you want to reach.

Well, yeah, funny you talk about the ads. The ads that I get on my profile are very, very well focused. Like, they are, they are, they have, they have me. I'm the right audience. And in probably 80% of the cases, it's a good ad. Now, whether I click on it or not is a different story, but, but they do have a, you know, many of these companies have the target market down.

Quite well. Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah. It, it can be very powerful. Yeah.

Um, the, we talk about the lead generation, especially in, uh, are you seeing, uh, outta curiosity, what do you think is the actual percentage of people, okay, in the entire, out of the universe of like, you know, business people that actually participates in LinkedIn? Do you have any numbers on that?

Um, I don't have numbers off the top of my head. The, um, what I will say is that the people who tend to be on LinkedIn are the, are lean more towards the visionary.

Right.

You know, they're people who want insights, who want the next thing that's going to give them a competitive edge.

Right.

And those tend to be the same people who are open to buying new products and services that will help move their company forward.

Yeah, that is interesting.

So, you know, you're reaching the right people when you're active on LinkedIn, right? We also see— I recently did some looking at, okay, what are the vice presidents doing? You know, we tend to focus on the CEOs, and I was looking at, okay, What are vice presidents doing that's different? And they actually tend to be very active on LinkedIn as well. Now, more on the business development, marketing, operations, technology side than on, say, finance or, you know, manufacturing.

Right.

But I, I once found like 18,000 window manufacturing plant people on LinkedIn, you know, plant work, you know, engineers and production, slightly lower level.

Not file, but the, but the management layer. Yes.

And there, there are people who have built a huge following on LinkedIn who are things like paint experts, dentists, you know, things that you would not expect at all.

The long tail, right? I mean, it is the long tail kind of come to life in a way, right? We always talked about that. It was one of the things that, as I was a digital marketing guy back in the late '90s, early 2000s, when all this stuff was just happening and the long tail was a huge promise, right? And we're seeing that come to fruition in places like LinkedIn and in the podcast area where everything gets very niche.

Right.

I can put a group around almost any kind of concept.

Right.

And then create that group and manage an audience, build an audience within that space.

Yeah.

And then figure out how to monetize it.

Well, it's interesting, like home inspectors. I used to be in real estate, so I follow home inspectors. And the home inspectors are really good because the stories that they have and they're able to post and the ones that are really good, Have figured this out, and plumbers too. Like one of my good friends is a plumber, so I was talking to him about like posting on LinkedIn, and he said, "What am I going to post on LinkedIn about?" And I said, "No, you have you have valuable stories about what you found at at your your clients." And in the same way, the home inspector, the nightmares of home inspector, and you can find these stories, and it's like I would go with this guy, right?

I would go with Rich Rich Rich. Yeah, right.

Because consumers, professionals, and executives are on LinkedIn, and that's who you're selling plumbing services to.

Right.

And this is, you know, there's not huge competition. There's a real opportunity to put some thought leadership out there, build relationships, and be the name that's top of mind when they need a plumber.

Really, really amazing. And again, and you can get local with it too, right? So the reality is that, again, you can slice and Dice your audience and then the people that you outreach to and the whole thing by vertical market, by geography, by, you know, all that stuff. And so that becomes a real, real efficient way of doing it too.

And build a referral network.

Right. The referral network. That's key, right?

That's a key thing for those local, for plumbers, right? You may, you know, a plumber in Sacramento, California doesn't really have a lot of value to me, but someone, you know, 2 doors down, but for referral purposes, It's like, oh, do you have a guy in, you know, you know, New Providence, New Jersey, or Summit, New Jersey that can help me?

Right. Like with MSPs, you know, being able to network with accountants and lawyers and marketing agencies, right? They all have that same small business—

The ecosystem, right?

Yeah.

And that's what we found. I mean, I think I always talk about this too, I think, with LinkedIn is that you are merging ecosystems. And the more that you merge ecosystems with the more people, the more, you know, this is the network effect, right? The, it's the old, what was the, what was the, we're gonna date ourselves here right now, but let's, there was a shampoo commercial back in the early '80s, right, that I think had Jo Namath in it. It was something about you tell 2 friends and they tell 2 friends.

And they tell 2 friends.

Does that ring a bell? Right. Okay.

I don't use shampoo much, Joe.

Sorry. Well, yeah, that was back in the days when I needed that. But the point is, is that, yes, I mean, the network effect in LinkedIn is so critical because it's not just about— it's about, again, you can build an audience around a topic, right? A subject. You can allow other people to join that conversation and to get their perspectives on it, right? You can guide that discussion. Right? You can become the moderator of that discussion, right? As opposed to the top-down driver of the stuff, right? Kind of like what we do on this podcast. You can— you are able then to— when you create an audience and then know how to grow that audience, right? You're not even selling anything yet, right? But you can grow the audience to a point in which now you've got a marketable audience. And by the way, you can sell them almost anything at that point because they are enamored with who you are and what you're doing. And they trust you. They believe you. They see who you know, who you're connected with. They can make these kind of judgment calls. And so the reality is the product you then, you know, at that point going and saying, hey, look, by the way, You know, here's what I'm— here's the thing that I'm doing and whatever, and you would be— it'd be great to have you be a part of this XYZ, whatever. You can almost sell them almost anything you want, which is what I think that the other social media, the other big social media platforms kind of figured out a little like earlier on, right? Which was like the Instagrams and the TikToks of the world quickly kind of moved towards monetization, right? Obviously, there's, there's money in it for them too, obviously. But I think that they— what they figured out was you're creating this audience, and everybody on those platforms who are these creators will tell you that this is the process, right? To say, look, don't go out and sell anything. Go out and establish who you are and what you bring to the table and who you know and all those bona fides, right?

Right.

And then, then grow the audience with content within that niche. And as you do that, now you can start to figure out the ways. And in fact, the market will in fact tell you how to monetize it.

Exactly. Yeah. And I, I think the other platforms focused on monetization earlier because they're more B2C. Correct. And they're also kind of e-commerce product-oriented. Right. LinkedIn is more of a B2B space.

Right.

And it's a market of ideas.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Great point.

That's it. The market of ideas.

That's— Judy, where can people find you? How should they engage with you and talk about your book a little bit more and where they can buy that, where they can find those, interact with you?

Sure. Thank you. Yeah, they can find me on LinkedIn. Judy Schramm, S-C-H-R-A-M-M. Uh, that's the easiest thing. They can also reach me by email, judy@proresource.com. And, uh, the book is available for free on our website, free download. They can also buy it on Amazon.

Excellent.

And, you know, search on CEO LinkedIn will, will bring you to the book, but it's called How to Craft a CEO Brand on LinkedIn.

And of course, we will link this also in the show notes, guys, so that you've got all access to all that stuff as well. Judy, this has been fantastic. I mean, I can't tell you how much enough. You and I kind of hit it off from the beginning. I love how you have seen what we have in terms of bringing all this stuff through the lens of potentially making the company more valuable and sellable, right?

Exactly.

Because this isn't just about, again, the role of the CEO, who again might be a hired gun for Right? The reality is, you know, when it comes to founders and business owners in particular, even more so than CEOs, it becomes even more critical, frankly, to have that kind of presence on LinkedIn and the ability to be able to use it for, again, everything from showing your thought leadership through recruitment, you know, to be able to, but most importantly, being able to show the value of what you bring to the world.

Exactly.

Um, is, is, is really what, at the, at the end of the day, what it is. And that's, and that's how you create value in the company, right?

Right. Absolutely.

The, um, what, what excites you most about the future? Um, is there anything that you're looking at right now that you're, that you're, that you're, that you're thinking about, that you're seeing, seeing something go, breakthroughs, things like that?

I'm super excited about AI. Mm-hmm.

Right.

And, you know, I've been playing— we've had AI clients for years, long before GPT was introduced, but I've been playing with it very seriously since the week after it launched because our clients couldn't talk about anything else.

Right.

And I've had so much fun with it. It's, it's absolutely great in terms of Thinking through strategy and brainstorming ideas. We don't use it for writing for clients, but I do think in the future, potentially, that could be possible. And so, you know, I'm watching GPT get better and better. Yeah.

I imagine too that LinkedIn will eventually have to grab onto this as well, right? And be able to— and I'm sure that they are in the background somewhere thinking about how they integrate this stuff. More closely into the content situation, tools, things like that?

Yeah. Well, you know, Microsoft owns LinkedIn, and Microsoft has invested hugely in OpenAI. And you will see AI all the way through LinkedIn. Yeah. You know, it looks to interpret posts for you, and it will help you craft your About. And, and what I'll say is it It's not there yet. But, you know, it's not awful, and it's getting better constantly. So, you know, use it. Yeah, just, you know, whatever it takes to step into the magic of LinkedIn. You know, if GPT helps you get there, then use it.

If starting a podcast helps you get there, whatever. If calling, if emailing Judy Schramm at What's the address again? Judy@proresource.com?

Judy@proresource.com.

That's the— that, that— how— whatever gets you into here is exactly where we all want you to be, because we all want you to be able to raise your own value and salability as fast as you can and exit on your own terms. Judy Schramm, thank you so much for being here today. We really appreciate it. And let— will you come back and do it again? Because I think there's a lot more we can talk about.

I'd love to.

That's awesome. And by the way, guys, you will see— you will, whether she knows it or not, you will start— you will see more of Judy Schramm around here. within the ExitEngine kind of ecosystem as we move forward as well. So look out for stuff coming down the pike. You know, we talk about, we use, we spend so much time on LinkedIn, okay, that, and again, not from a, we are busy people too, but the reality is right now is that, you know, this is how we get podcast guests. This is how we introduce and grow our advisory partner network. Obviously, you know, we've gotten, we have many clients at Exio who have actually come via LinkedIn as well, not all but many. And of course, we're always looking for ways to be able to grow those things more. And so it was great to have Judy on the show today to be able to kind of guide us in that direction. And of course, absolutely, we'll be spending more time with Judy trying to figure those things out as well. John, any parting remarks today?

No, I just, I learned a great deal from Judy about how to optimize LinkedIn, how CEOs and founders should use LinkedIn. It was just, It was a fascinating conversation. So I took a couple of— I took many notes, I should say, and I look forward to implementing them.

That's awesome. Judy Schramm, CEO of ProResource, personal branding agency to help CEOs, founders, and executives harness the power of LinkedIn to build visibility, credibility, and influence. Thank you so much for being here, and we will see you again very soon.

It's my pleasure. I'm looking forward to it.

Excellent. And John, as always, buddy, the ways that you can grow your value and salability by making sure that you are harnessing thought leadership. In the old days, it used to be about white papers and, right, we were always talking about stuff like that. But now we have the online ability to be able to get this stuff out there and do it well and in a meaningful, intentional way, right?

Oh yeah, I do. I have one other thing I forgot to mention that I want to mention to the audience. Go to www.myexitengine.com. There we have a sign-up for our community launch. So if you sign up there, again, www.myexitengine.com, throw your email in there, you will get updated when we launch our community, which will be soon. And, but do that. I forgot to do that plug earlier.

So yeah.

That's great. No, absolutely. And appreciate you saying that. And again, guys, you know, what we want here at ExitEngine is we want to be your resource for this stuff. And And any way we can do that, and please, you know, like, subscribe, share. We have to say that because believe it or not, it actually works. And when you when you don't, what we found is when you don't ask people to like, subscribe, and share, they don't. But if you do often, they do. Thank you for listening to this. Please like, subscribe, and share it with a business owner you love. Okay, because they will thank you for it later for sure. Thank you again for listening to the Exit Engine Podcast today. We will talk to you guys next time.